"Competence creates confidence!"
That actually is impossible goal if you are raised by over-bearing parent that instilled inside you criticism that you question everything and every single detail about yourself. :D
Because later in life, as you grow older and start working, when you are on a new task, there are always hidden toxic people that will sniff your fears and see you as easy target to bully and criticize you and expect you to do new job as if you are doing this new job for 20 years now, as if you automatically can magically transfer USB upload knowledge and skills in your brain. Without knowing it, it keeps you stuck forever in loop, in impostor syndrome, never being able to reach neither "competence" nor "confidence".
Rather I would say this:
"Competence is matter of perspective".
People will love you and respect you as competent until one day you make one single mistake, and then they will berate you and judge you for one single mistake until the day you die. So, if your confidence is dependent on your own competence, than you have deep unresolved issues with your own people pleasing, codependency and caring too much what other people think of you, approval addiction.
By being compulsively and obsessively competent, we actually are trying to control other people. We think other people will stop being mean and rude to us if we are perfect. And no one can be perfect and competent in everything. People are human beings, fragile and prone to errors. So we can't expect unreasonable performance from other people, too.
And that obsessing over competence in order to gain confidence is actually social anxiety loop that goes on forever. There is a better way out than trying to be perfect and competent - have forgiveness and focus on your life to live it fully in correct and healthy manner (so that you grow in confidence and competence in healthy way), rather than toxically deciding on impressing other people by your super competence/confidence:
https://77ranko.blogspot.com/2021/03/managing-social-anxiety-and-toxic-shame.html
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Fact, TWITTER: Fake people have an image to maintain. Real people just don't care.
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"Try striking up random conversations with cashiers, elderly people, or neighbors."
...leads to fawn response and codependency in long term. It is highly dysfunctional road to being pushover and been taken advantage of by narcissists, psychopaths and sociopaths, toxic people ready to feast-parasite on open and cheerful talkative social anxiety dudes. What social anxiety sufferers need is the opposite - how to strike up argument and deal with sudden, unprovoked and highly aggressive conflict.
Instead I would suggest to work on our own forgiveness and letting go of resentment and grudge. That is the hidden and forgotten root cause of social anxiety. As children we forgot this, but we reacted to something frightful to us as pouting. We decided to resent and hold on to grudge as response to rude social situation. We decided to avoid people based on our resentment. Later as years go by, this lack of love transferred into mental issues and problem with social settings in general.
Rather than not trying to brush social skills, we need to scrap off our hypnotic, forgotten grudge that we carry around since childhood and we copy-paste it in new relationships and interactions. Scrap it off by having forgiveness mentality.
Because people with social anxiety are perfected in this random conversation skills anyway (due to our detailed focus on social settings - the by-product is that as years go by we unwittingly became authority in social interaction, we are just afraid to get hurt and thus never test it, never become aware of this power).
"When your brain is trying to avoid social interactions that’s the time when you need to throw yourself into social interactions. That nervous energy will subside, I promise you."
" that’s the time when you need to throw yourself into social interactions."
This is the nexus point where introverted, sensitive, kind people and people with extreme social anxiety have totally different reaction/effect than your experience of 'subsiding anxiety' - the anxiety explodes in one giant explosion instead and we flip in panic.
I am talking about someone being rude, aggressive and unfair in interaction with you (someone accusing you of something you did not do, but your inferiority complex explains it in your head that other loud and angry people are automatically correct, valid and competent so you shut up and do not explain/defend yourself).
If someone is stuck with this non-subsiding anxiety loop, try the combination of forgiveness and assertiveness instead:
Think of this loud and obnoxious toxic person as incompetent piece of crap :D that is weak loser only pretending to be something he is not, trying to project their low IQ and poor mental health onto you. Once you regard the angry and rude critic in this way, try to have forgiveness mentality instead of fear because they are so weak and really fragile inside. Then see if this perspective will subside anxiety - and then rely on your logic, experience and instinct to guide you in the right direction, (either ignoring or arguing) instead of habitual learned reaction of running, hiding or screaming away in panic.
We can't control other people, extroverted people know this, this is why subsiding anxiety will work for them. People with social anxiety are stuck with anxiety because we learned the wrong tool how to deal with rude people when we were kids. We learned ourselves that if we hold grudges and resentments, that people will automatically become better and kind to us. It is time to let go of this wrong belief and be focused on repairing our avoidant socially anxious lives and start living again through forgiveness and without burden of holding on to hidden grudges and long time forgotten resentments that we repeat in any new social situation.. ;)
"Higher expectations for myself has really helped my life and confidence."
Yet, for me, this expectation created plethora of intrusive thoughts, perfectionism hell, inferiority complex and avoidance, isolation and suicide ideation when I stumbled on reality - that most grown-up people are ego-centric and unable to listen or cooperate.
What can I say, diff'rent strokes. :D
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Yeah I think it would be great to put information out there. I have been collecting information since 1996 through books, later over internet. I wish I knew what I know now, it would save me time and energy.
That is in fact a mystery to me - I've read on wikipedia that certain percentage of people are cured from social anxiety. So I wondered why psychiatrist do not make interviews with them organize their thoughts and findings and revelations in a book or books - so that people who are still infected can get their immunization shots through this way.
I guess it partly be because each person is individual and their personal problems are connected to very different and individual set of triggers -
but still -- it would be great to hear from people who conquer social anxiety. Maybe a portion of their story might help.
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We can't control other people. The sooner you admit this truth to yourself, you will relieve yourself from burden of unreasonable expectations from other people. We can't influence their decisions, reasons and why they do stuff in their own domain of control that are not hurtful to others - being violent for example. Yet, she hurt you. So, the problem is not her, it is your thinking, your perspective. And in the end, perhaps she might have sudden alarming message that blew her life completely off and her only focus in this fixing current problem - thus no time for you.
You, as any other social anxiety sufferer, have generalization - that one single event will repeat itself over again, like copy-paste system in computer. The only way is to test it - trying it again and forcing yourself to be active instead of denying yourself living by avoidance.
;)
Since you go to places, your social anxiety is very low in intensity, so take advantage of your unrecognized power and carry on being active, that is healthy direction. Without a mental burden of expecting the same result happening over again, this adventure attitude of testing what will happen this time can help you stop ruminating over what happened wrong in the past, being afraid it will happen again.
And in the end, are you doing your best to be a good person? Are you non violent, do you listen to people, can you put yourself in other people shoes? If you do, you might feel less guilty over someone being shitty to you. You did nothing wrong, sometimes people make wrong decisions and ignore good and kind people. With time they will learn the hard way to avoid unkind people and stick with those they take granted of. You on the other hand can focus on finding healthy girls, that recognize what splendid guy you are.
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Unless you have plethora of other social pet peeves (such as feeling anxious in any social settings), I think you are being too hard on yourself. Ease up, you don't have to carry feelings of apprehension along with you - if you look at it logically and objectively. For example:
Not having a clue about fashion is a good thing for a man - you are not suppose to have a clue if you are not interested in it. Most men are clueless in this department, this is why there are fashion gurus for men fashion, this is normal, you do not have to bear guilt about it. That customer made you ashamed, and well, that person is simply put "crazy" and full of unresolved complexes - that person just transferred their unresolved psychological issues onto you, so that you feel guilty for nothing. You can let it go, it is not your burden. You are allowed to ask kindly what you do not know, that is a basic human right. The other person may not answer you, but you have right to query, especially in business settings where you pay for something.
Check out for example you tube channel "Real Men Real Style", it is former military guy that gives down to earth, sensible and clever, clear tips about fashion, I think you'll love it. For example, I learned from his channel to scrub my sneakers clean - I'd never do it, it never crossed my mind to do it, yet it now feels great and I feel confident when I wear clean shoes. There are also excellent advices about suits. There are many other men fashion YT channels, too so you can inform yourself in this area if you wish.
Hairdresser, too. You are being too harsh on yourself, you put too much unnecessary mental pressure on yourself, to the point of self-sabotage if you quit. People feel anxious if they are put in spotlight, this is called 'spotlight effect' -google it. That is normal feeling. It is nothing to be cured of. It is reaction to strange, new and non standard environment. If you sit in clear space with mirrors and lights, that is well defined spot for everyone looking at you, and of course it feels uncomfortable. That is normal feeling, don't worry about it, enjoy it while it last. It will wear off completely with years, as time goes by.
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Rich, you are definitely being a way way too hard on yourself. My guess you learned it through someone who was close to you? Mine is father, who is constantly criticizing me -as in past so even today - I am not hard on myself but I doubt myself to the point I believe I am not competent to do anything :D
You said "how awkward and unskilled I am"
nooo.. you are not. This is not true. Most people are awkward and unskilled. They either don't give a damn or they put on a mask so they appear skilled but they are clutzes really, just like you and me. And anyway, you are allowed to be awkward. In fact, to most people you will be interesting as awkward rather than "regular", because your faults make you perfect, there is Japanese art style)I can't remember the name) that small imperfections make something beautiful. Without it, it would be ordinary and dull, and no one would notice it.
If you say hello to people, if you are non violent, and if you listen to people when they talk to you, I would say you have social skills better than 75 percent of them all.
Definitely, instead of being focused on your faults, try to check out you being so hard on yourself and ways how to stop being hard on yourself - rather than spending time worrying how you appear.
"Accept that anexity is normal and everyone feels it, it's how you deal with it that counts."
For people with social anxiety, it is more complex than this. Anxiety is like you go through life with your hand break turned on. You are stumbling instead of smooth walking and you cannot unhand this break, it is stuck and detrimental. For people with extreme social anxiety, they do not how to deal with anxiety. The messages from society how to deal with anxiety are conflicting, dualistic and double binding (whatever you choose is wrong decision). For extreme social anxiety, anxiety is part of complex trauma, a wound, a wrong learned habit from childhood that is being repeated without being aware that you repeat it. So the anxiety is not issue at all. And many people are wrongly convinced, as you suggested, that you have to deal with anxiety in correct manner, as if there are some set of instructions and steps to take to get rid of anxiety. This desire to handle anxiety creates intrusive thoughts and OCD and panic attack issues, because now you have an additional fear of something unknown that you are told you must get rid of.
Instead of how to deal with anxiety,
The core issue is our resentment and holding on to grudge, our belief that we decided as pre-teenagers that our pouting will cure other rude people and they will start behaving like normal, kind human beings. Which in reality they never do, since we cannot change other people. Instead of dealing with anxiety, the only way out is route of Deep forgiveness, forgiving everyone, including ourselves. Letting go of resentment and grudge that we stuck subconsciously as habit when we were kids.
If someone is stuck with ongoing every-single-day social anxiety more than 6 months, try it out and let me know if it works?
"a feeling like the people here don`t quite "get" me"
you are right - That is not social anxiety at all. Social anxiety is pervasive ongoing dreadful obsessive OCD rumination about other people's reaction towards you, imagined or real, about slightest criticism or sign of aggression.
But the question that you raised is - - do you want new friends? Do you want to have a group of people that will "get" you? Do you have desire to be around people? Or do your feel good being alone? Even if you are introverted, it doesn't mean you must live as reclusive and in isolation - as some silent yet forceful label obligation for introverted people.
A feeling that people do not and cannot understand you - does it stem from your desire that people understand you or from frustration that you have a message and there is miscommunication between you and society? (social skills course might help with that.)
We are not aware of communication mechanism - that there is transmitter and receiver entity and the message needs to be decoded and translated in between them in order for someone to "get" you or that you "get" them.
'resenting people will only make things worse'
Spot on! People are unaware they have mental issues. People are unaware they hold resentment(s). It happened a long time ago as kids. For Christ sake I am writing a diary since 1987, my bullying event happened in 1989/1990, and even though I have written form about this crucial event, I was not aware what really happened.
I wrote :"They (kids that bullied me) hate me, why they hate me so much". As kid, I did not know psychology, I did not know how to explain what is happening, I did not know it would be useful to write the second part.
The second untold part is how I felt as bullied kid that decided to stay locked in my room pouting and avoiding people for the next 33 years - pouting was my conscious unconscious decision, I decided to hold grudge and resentment in order for other kids to change and see the damage they done to me. And I started to avoid people, develop social anxiety --- and completely forgotten the pouting part. The society (tv, media, environment) taught me well to be a good kind person, so I developed a pattern of fawn response, codependency, people pleasing and caring what other people think as my prerogative. Society learns us to forgive but it does not explain what happens the next day, when you meet someone rude who crosses your boundary. To forgive in our society means to shut up, to self censor, drop our defenses and be hurt by focusing on other people what they think of us. That is unhealthy definition of forgiveness. We are not told that we forgive our resentment and let go of grudges. We are not told that forgiveness has nothing to do with our boundaries and that resentment is distorting our definitions of everything and objectivity.
So how can we expect normal Joe to be aware they have anxiety or that there are people out there with social anxiety, nor how can an average person be aware to manage it, something that I myself have been studying and searching since 1996 and learnt to manage it 20+ years later. :D :D
People in general have no knowledge, information neither definition to recognize what they are dealing with. And how could they? The media is filled with pop news or repetitive 'man beat dog' journalism (either by focusing us on marketing brainwashing or highlighting surreal news as something that is happening all the time, everyday), there is no discussion about resentment being the core wound source of mental illness.
Check this comment below, Dj monatomic. Like him, whether he is sarcastic or not, most people will blame the victim it is their fault for getting hurt. Because people are annoyed/inconvenienced by someone who is hurting. The society is sick and it is perpetuating the sickness. In the end we have ocean of resentment, grudges and pouting on all sides. On victims, on aggressive bullies, on regular Joes side (most of the people) who were fed with silver spoon all their life and never experienced pain.
Instead of forgiveness the way out is Deep forgiveness. We can defend ourselves without being resentful and without tagging along our grudges. Resentment=mental illness. Mental health=being authentic.
I joined the army, no where to hide in the army you have to get over it as you have no choice but join in with everyone else.
"I joined the army" Oh, I was in army, too. 1997-1998 compulsory military service. And even though it made my anxiety worse, I was surprised that 2 or 3 guys quit army due to mental distress, while I've done all 10 month compulsory time.
You can be open, outgoing, extroverted, socially interactive with social anxiety. This is actually black and white thinking - thinking that if you hang with people that it means you are cured by magic and you have no social anxiety - this kind of thinking is part of mental distortions, it is cognitive distortion and it is a part of social anxiety. You can live your life with social anxiety, have a job, meet someone for sex, make pretend superficial friendships, go to parties, weddings, cinema, buddhist meeting.. yet it feels like you walk through life with your hand break on, you stutter and stumble as you go along.
You can force yourself as if you have no choice, but ignoring the problem is not healthy. And the solution is so incredibly simple that is seems like it is not real - as kids we decided to pout and hold grudges and resentment as a tool to control other kids that are bulling and mocking us. This pouting mentality we have taken as a subconscious choice in how to deal with rude and critical people. So the way to resolve it is to forgive at the core everything and everyone from our past, and instead of pouting mentality, instead of holding on to grudges and resentment towards people, we create space for forgiveness and peace so that we can express our new resentments and grudges in a form of functional argument, agreeing attitude and willingness on cooperation. With resentment and grudge we deny ourselves to alarm and alert rude people, we fawn and become codependent, people pleasers and pushovers in order not to display our inner rage over rude people that we meet. The resentment is eating us up inside like a rust. Social anxiety will go away as much as we are successful in letting go and being ready to express ourselves without resentment.
"Stay away from energy vampires that want to suck you into their frame."
Avoidance leads to more anxiety and cognitive distortions, mental issues.
Sociopaths are statistically very low in count, however people with social anxiety attracts them like moth to a flame, we are easy target because they sniff out our desire to run away from them. So the only correct and healthy way is to confront them. To at least warn them they will be blocked if they do not stop crossing our boundaries.
And anyway, since it is unlikely we will encounter real psychopath, it is more likely other toxic, rude people are clutzes, they are totally ignorant and have no idea what mess they live behind and how they influence negatively people who come in contact with them. So again, confronting them is the correct way. They may react aggressively like in a movie "12 angry men" (1957), but if we are right, we can win the truth like in that movie. Or.. perhaps we are not right in some situations and circumstances. Perhaps we are vampires ourselves and we do not realize it - if we are ego centric for example and think that the world revolves around us. This is the reason why talking, confronting and arguing with people to clear and make ourselves known and other people too is essential.
Psychologically speaking, we are all interdependent. We can't do a job without other people and that may entail being in contact with vampires. We can't do our goals and dreams come through without coming into contact with other people, and it may entail the contact with vampires.
So the avoidance is not the functional and healthy answer.
Social anxiety is fear from confrontation and being reliant on other people's approval. Instead of realizing why other people opinion is so codependent for us, we might choose to simply label anyone toxic and as vampire, but that does not solve anything, it creates our world small and smaller with time.
If we see have hammer, we will see any problem as nail.
If we hold resentment and grudge, we will attract vampires in our lives, we will see everyone as vampire. It is time to forgive vampires and see them as weak, defective beings that need our point of view or our standpoint - that may or may not entail ignoring them. But at least they deserve to know how we feel before we shut out anyone from our lives. Give them a chance to change. Go beyond the shadow of doubt and check objectively as adults what is wrong, instead of subjectively copy-paste the pouting patterns from our childhood.
"Deleting all social media is a good start"
That is the same to tell that breaking your legs is a good start to avoid getting hurt in possible accident.
Or that you stop breathing since once day you will catch virus that spreads through air.
Social media is bad only if you use it incorrectly, with incorrect intentions.
"For me anxiety = overthinking."
Overthinking = intrusive thoughts.
Intrusive thoughts = PureOCD
PureOCD = Complex trauma
Complex trauma (PTSD) = wound
wound = holding on to resentment, grudges and pouting as a way to control people
deep forgiveness = cure for social anxiety
"You are being judged by people that do not have their shit together. Think about it."
Yeah, but with social anxiety your world view is skewed. Social anxiety is set of inferiority complex, low self esteem. This means, other people appear confident, competent and valid simply because they are louder, angrier, vulgar, violent, and basically drama queens that appear as Churchills in our eyes :D
But this perspective is also part of social anxiety - instead of being focused on our dreams, goals, tasks, we are focused on other people. Either through fear or deciding to fight or to belittle other people - as social anxiety we focus on other people how to control them. No matter what response, it is all a part of social anxiety. Most people choose to fawn since anxiety is uncomfortable fear - most people respond to fear by being quiet - even when we are aware that rude person has no shit together, this information changes nothing - while some people respond with aggression and tell them in their face they have no shit together. And then it seems we must be aggressive and rude to rude people as what seems to us a correct way to deal with social anxiety.
None of that is important. People change, sometimes they base their act or decision on temporary wrong decision, then they change their mind. It is useless to base our life, decisions and worries on other people and how they act.
At the root of social anxiety is our resentment, our holding on to grudge and pouting. We cannot control other people. We cannot change other people. We can speak up, we can say what we want, but the other person may not like it, or they can ignore us even. Dictatorship is unhealthy in politics, it is dysfunctional in human mind, people are not wired to be aggressive. Long spoon analogy is the answer - cooperation and trying to talk to unreasonable and difficult people first, then ignoring second if they cannot respond and if they do not cooperate. If Einstein says to ignore rude people is the intelligent way, then I would trust his advice :D
Instead of being focused on people whether they have their shit together or not, it is healthier to be focused on deep forgiveness and being free from resentments and grudges and then relying on our instincts, decisions, responses and reactions based on resentment-free mentality.
"this comes from early childhood/ childhood when the child did not have unconditional love from their parents/guardians/authorities"
This does come from early childhood, but it is not based on other people. Mental illness, stress is not the cause of distortion, it is our reaction to it that is problem.
It is our own resentment, pouting and holding on to grudge that is the cause of deviation. We are the ones that created unhealthy non functional patterns due to our resentments. As kids we decide to pout in order for other kids change their behaviour and that they become good and kind. As adults we forget this decision but we kept on the pattern of resentment, grudge and pouting - and we are not even aware we have resentment, grudge and that we are pouting. This is all happening subconsciously because it hurt us so much when we were kids. We carry the grudge along like a chained rock.
The only way out is deep forgiveness, let go of our resentments, grudges and pouting, for example as you said
"I wanted to please him and be worthy"
that is grudge, resentment. Forgive him for not recognizing your efforts. Forgive everything. The resentment is the root cause of mental instability, holding on to it is being active in keeping mental illness alive. Resentment is producing all kinds of dysfunctional responses, cognitive distortions and deviations. The solution is so simple and it was available to us through religion and spirituality for so long: forgive. Then, when we have no resentment, we can have clear mind and do, act, make decisions not based on destructive entity in form of resentment.
"Learning to do something new helps."
Yet if you have social anxiety, you are blocked unconsciously by your fears, so you are not able neither to do physically nor to be entrepreneur and do it in constructive way to do anything outdoor where people are present, ready to criticize you or belittle your efforts. With social anxiety, other people opinions are the primary concern, whether you pay attention to them or trying to block them and convincing yourself you do not care what other people think - both methods require significant unnecessary energy and effort from your part to waste time on it, instead of doing your task and goals in peace, with inner peace.
If you have social anxiety, what you learn will be under veil. You will not be able to see it from all perspectives due to inner fears.
I am supporter of Kurt Lewin - his discovery was that before we do anything, before we learn anything, we need to have solid base for it - this may entail gathering all information available about it.
With social anxiety this means get rid of grudge and resentment towards past events and new ones. Clear yourself with deep forgiveness, mental hygiene first, have an attitude of forgiveness rather than pouting - just like taking shower before stepping out in the world.
"I did have it but I guess it wasn't as bad as some others though . Stop giving a care what other people think of you helps alot as well"
Great, social anxiety is such a waste of time, constantly worrying what other people think real or imagined, it is amazing if you got rid if it.
Just to note - the action of engaging in caring what other people think is social anxiety. It means you invest mental energy to block something, it is like firewall in your computer operating system. Now imagine Russian pirate cyber attacking your domain, you will be overloaded and your web site will crash due to ongoing attack from many sources - no matter how strong your firewall. So even about thinking to care what other people think, that you give a care or not, it is sign your social anxiety is still present unfortunately.
You just learned how to hide it well. You bury it, but problem is with mental stuff that they fester with time and create damage without you knowing the damage is stemming from something that you buried deep and out of sight.
Think why would you be bothered by other people anyway? If you ignore them it means you still are getting bothered by something. There is something that people triggers inside you that is hurting you.
The problem are other people with devious intentions - narcissists, psychopaths and sociopaths, bullies, they sniff out your resistance and your triggers. They know this is your weak spot and they are trained to give you hard time, they do this without you being aware of it. If you decide to ignore someone rude, your decision to react is problem here and it is not functional in long term. Stopping something requires energy and time, and you are not aware of it.
Could it be that behind it you have resentment and you hold grudge? Can you check if you have these feelings inside?
Instead of being focused on other people, each time someone triggers you, seek inside the feelings of you pouting at people. This feeling is a virus and parasite. It feels good to you to have it because you are already infected by its programming, making your reality distorted, but in reality it creates damage inside, it will cause you to make wrong decisions in your life based on fears of what other people think rather than logical, objective, authentic instinct. Let it go. If you block and ignore people, it means you invest your time and energy in other people rather than your own life, your dreams, tasks and goals and good people you take for granted.
So just as you would protect your web site from Russian hackers by either installing widget to check are they human or not, or by blocking Russia in general, you would deal with current problem without resentment, you would find permanent solution to problem, and move on with your life.
"You obviously have no idea what social media does to your subconscious. It’s something humans have never dealt with before, we have just accepted it as normal."
If you think about it objectively and with all history past knowledge, you would notice that social media did exist in the past, however it was in different form than facebook or twitter.
I am not subject here, what I say is not to influence you or change you - that is your responsibility, your life. Perhaps the wrong choices you make will be good for you in the long run, we learn our best when we make mistakes, rather then when we follow someone else's instruction.
Yet, I can tell you that I am dealing with social anxiety since 1988, been avoidant since 1989. When kids in high school went to bars, discovering drinks, sex and soft drugs, friendships and opportunities for future jobs or marriages, I spent it in my room. :D
But who cares. Behind it all was my resentment as a way to manipulate bullies to stop their attacks. Deep forgiveness is the only way to heal social anxiety. Then, when you stand outside of resentment, you can see clearly what is the problem and how to deal with social media - perhaps to use it to chat with people like this, instead of posting what I ate or my selfies :D
Good insight but it is somewhat garbled and mixed up. Let's sort it out :D
"patterns I saw as kid - parents arguing"
close but not enough. As kids we decided to pout, hold grudges and to have resentments against other kids that hurt us. That is dysfunctional pattern we take later as adults. Later we forget this decision to pout, and we completely forget about it, yet we continue to hold on grudge as a habit, as a way to pout in order to manipulate other people to change their bullying and aggressive behaviour. As kids we may see dysfunctional arguing our parents, but people pleasing is not result of witnessing our parents as non functional role models, rather it is our wrong decision based on our personal choice to hold grudge. Otherwise there would be people pleasing pandemic, since all parents fight and argue all the time. :D
"You think people pleasing is good thing but it is manipulating."
People pleasing is sign we have been good attentive students of life and we received message from our education system, media and environment to not being violent or unkind or obnoxious to people when someone is irritating and cross our boundaries. It is not that manipulation was our ultimate goal, it was a way to influence other people into changing so they become good. We are not even aware of this manipulation mechanism. We are not aware of our own resentment. We have no clue it is inside us. We have no idea that we carry grudge along with us since childhood. We are only aware of hurt and pain that other people aggressive comments do to us. We are only aware of learned pattern to people please as a way to not escalate, rock the boat and cause harm or hurt to anyone. Narcissist manipulate others in order to gain their money, resources, energy, time and harness their emotions and to hurt their target. People pleasers do not have these toxic selfish ego-centric goals so it would not be fair to label it as manipulation. People pleasing is our response to trauma and later to any kind of stress. Some people freeze (do alcohol, drugs, addictions), some people flight (avoid), some people fight (become aggressive) and some choose to fawn and be codependent, to be people pleasers and addicted to approval. It is not conscious manipulation as narcissist do it. People are not aware of it. We are instructed to be good people, we are not told what does that mean and how to handle unknown situations as good people other than people please and be pushover. We did not get instructions how not to respond in violence and as drama queens screaming and yelling. So people pleasing is the only sane solution to insane problem, it is not manipulation nor victimhood. Healthy way to deal with stress is let go of resentment and base our choices without resentment. We never learned this, no one told us this.
"You are responsible for liking yourself."
To people pleasers this is logical sentence. Yet it does not work in reality. Because of resentment, holding on to grudge and pouting that we learned to deal with trauma as kids. Without deep forgiveness we cannot get rid of resentment. If we stay stuck with resentment we will never be able to like ourselves. Resentment, grudge and pouting is like veil preventing us from liking anything - ourselves or other people.
"I am not responsible for other people acts etc"
Make it more clear: We cannot change other people. We cannot control other people. It is not our job to change, and it is not possible to change anyone, since we know how hard is to change our own bad habits.
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I realized being so sensitive stems from the wound (complex trauma) and it I've read Psycho-cybernetics where the author describe the reason we are not directed correctly in life is due to wrong set of "policies" inside us. So if I've been ashamed in childhood, I learned the pattern to listen to others as valid, and me as being invalid, therefore other people's words precede anything I might think - I've done this inferiority mentality automatically in my head without me being aware of it. The way out is what you describe here, becoming immune to criticism, other's people's personal opinion about me, my faults, my mistakes. I was not aware what codependency is, I never realized that my automatic response when I feel ashamed was fawning. This means, other people's crap (opinion) I would take as ultimate truth, I never put it in question, I turned it into my personal shame, even when I didn't agree with them, deep down I would feel toxic shame of me being broken inside, by default. I would hear someone's criticism but I could not reject it. So I would shut up, shut down and be obedient to anyone who is angry, aggressive. Even if I was accused of things I didn't do, I would not defend myself or question them back to clear it out. I might even in some cases defend myself in shy way - I would react, but not in constructive way, it was silent over-reaction in form or resentment. Or I'd even try to ignore them, but it would still bother me deep inside, in form of intrusive thoughts, anxiety or depression. I could not get out of non-functional reaction loop.
Probably since I integrated other people words as my direction for anything in life - I've noticed last year it works like ying-yang inside my mind. I finally realized it was dualism. Not everything someone says is ultimate truth - there is always another side, in everything. So the technique I am discovering is to write down my personal pet peeves and to write down the opposite that I've learned through experience and education to be true:
https://77ranko.blogspot.com/2021/04/dualism-or-double-binding.html
I am aware of cognitive dissonance, I am aware I do not know all things and I will learn all my life, so I need to be open for new information or correcting the false information. I am aware of ego-centricism, and that there is always another perspective in everything, so the conflict may be in form of 6 or 9 depending where someone stands. What I am talking here that I have issue is about someone being rude, beating the dead horse, ad hominem, being personal and toxic shame, dysfunctional, nit-picking, complaining over unimportant things, constantly 24/7. It is about being on your new job and a complainer would expect of you to do a task perfectly as if I am working there for 20 years, and noticing and complaining for making mistakes over something I never done in my life. I would connect automatically being imposter, and I am not competent to do job. With experience I realized this expectation is toxic, I was not problem, I was not incompetent, I simply lacked experience - this is not personal issue and it is not issue at all. People who ashame others are the issue, they are negative factor. If I trust myself I could explain them back instead of shutting up and feeling like failure.
For me, decreasing suggestibility to others comes from battling two stories (dualism) but also through new technique that I am tapping into - defusion. Probably since I was exposed to toxic shame since childhood I tend to equate negative feeling or emotion with my identity - I feel bad, for me it automatically means I am bad person. I feel ashamed by someone, it automatically means I am invalid broken person by default. The cognitive defusion tells us it ain't so. We can learn to experience a thought or emotion and just notice it without over-reaction or reaction of any kind.
I am still experimenting with this and I noticed it works. For example in shopping mall I would get irritated by people who rush by me, or are in hurry so they stumble by me, so I would also become hasty myself and in rush, and I'd got bothered by people in my way - I noticed what I am doing, so I consciously stop and do my shopping slowly on purpose, without a rush, knowing in advance to be calm instead of going along automatically with my thoughts to be in a hurry.
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(28-apr-2021)
Behind forgiveness is resentment and grudge, pouting. The resentment and grudge are the cause of mental distortions and in long term, mental illness. It is poison we choose to take we mistakenly think is it aspirin pill.
We think if we forgive, we must fawn, be codependent, allow toxic people do whatever they want. This is why we hang on resentment and refuse to forgive deeply (anything and anyone).
To forgive means we keep our goals, tasks and decisions (it might or might not entail tough love or abandon someone), it depends on our specific circumstances and our personality, identity. The difference is we will base our decision free and without this virus inside, virus/parasite of resentment-grudge-pouting we chose to change people around us when we were little kids, and repeat subconsciously this pattern as adults. Forgiveness mentality gives us freedom, clarity and mental stability to cope with life.
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"Confidence balances everything..."
Yes, but check her video once again. True confidence is paradox - it means you do not have to prove yourself to be confident at all neither to impress others. If you act and force to be confident - that is not confidence, it creates unbalance in long term, it is inferiority complex because you try to prove something to others, and our intention of proving something to others takes too much time and energy and focus from really important tasks, our goals and dreams and good people we take for granted (as Soye said, people who encourage us).
Confidence is attitude of yeah, I make mistake, I stumble, I said something dumb, I appear un-confident, I tremble, I am afraid - and being ok with all these knowing, I give up of proving myself to others. I prove only to myself to give my very best in anything and being fine with outcome, result.
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I found out that at the core of Complex Trauma is wound. And the wound is a ball of yarn composed of my childhood resentment. As kid I decided to hold grudge, resent and pout as a way to control bullies who harmed me - that if I avoid them and stop talking with them, they will somehow realize that they are monsters and start be human beings.
Later I forgot this, but I kept the (wrong learned) pattern of pouting and resentment subconsciously. This later made me sensitive to triggers such as criticism, rude people, violent emotions. Holding on to resentment came with the package of cognitive distortions and consequently intrusive thoughts and avoidance.
The resentment is a virus, it is hypnosis, it is at the core of my wound.
Perhaps, if anyone else can relate, this information may help you. Complex trauma is ongoing issue, it is serious and the solution is so incredibly simple: Deep Forgiveness and letting go of our hidden and buried resentment, grudge and pouting from the past, as well as the new ones we latch onto.
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And yeah, let's put it in my example here - perhaps someone might find something useful - my example is social anxiety. Being afraid of people - me knowing it started by bully event. And knowing and me being aware I have a set of distortions such as generalization, believing every unknown person will be rude and I must fawn, be codependent or avoid any social situation as automatic response to rude people, stress and phobias. These are things I am aware of, yet I see no way how to fix it.
Well, the solution is simple once I realized this started with trauma and my response - I was not aware until last week that I decided to pout, hold grudge and to hold resentments in order to control and manipulate other kids to stop being rude and mean, and to start being kind and friendly - by me resenting them. Later I forgot this response, but I kept it in my subconsciousness.
I would generally avoid people, or if I could not - go to job or some event, I would stay quiet, be silent, avoid argument, avoid expressing my opinion, be codependent, believe others are superior, develop inferiority complex since I avoid everything and thus lack skills, while others that are loud, scary, angry, aggressive like my childhood bullies - I believed this means automatically such people are competent, trustworthy, better, valid and I should be obedient to them, while I look at my detail behavior, not trying to rock the boat, watch over my mistakes, me trembling, me showing any kind of fear.. I would continuously do all these patterns, but I had no idea how to stop it or from where does it stem from. I was aware of it, but I was not aware that I do all these in order to influence others, to manipulate them, to change them, to control people into becoming better human beings.
The wrong learned patterns stem from my own childhood resentment, grudge and pouting. And once I became aware of it - the solution as you said is extremely easy - deep forgiveness. Having attitude of forgiveness. Holding onto mentality of forgiveness instead of unconscious wrong learned pattern of stubborn resentment, grudge and pouting. It may or may not entail acts of tough love, ignoring or any other tool I used up until now. The difference is having clear mind, not having hang ups and distorted reality telling me wrong choices and directing me in wrong directions by pouting, resentment and grudge. Instead if I know I cannot change others, but I can alarm and alert them (something I was not able to do before) I can defend and speak up what I need from others - instead of keeping silent and suffering in resentment towards them, choosing passive aggressive tactics in order to avoid open aggression. With the peace of mind I can come up with better ideas, and I can focus on my goals, dreams, fixing and repairing and people I took for granted that I had no energy and time for, since I was holding on to virus in form of resentment.
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29-apr-2021
"constantly Practicing remaining calm and controlling my mood "
This part I do not agree. This means you are investing a lot of your time and energy into defense and being offensive. That is not healthy at all. Behind this ignoring is resentment. Resentment is virus, it destroys your mental health with time.
There are advices available on You tube how to deal with difficult people, how to be assertive, mostly they will explain you how to alarm and alert person who is bothering you.
But the root question is why they trigger you? It means, something inside you people provoke - that is some wound inside. Find it out what that is. If you ignore it through constantly practicing to be calm and controlling your mind, this wound will fester.
Trying to control people and events that cannot be controlled is cognitive distortion.
The solution is so very simple: forgiveness and having mentality of forgiveness. This means you can stop wasting time on controlling and practicing and instead use this energy, time and focus for your goals, tasks, dreams and good people you take for granted, and have no time for, since you would otherwise practicing calmness (being ego-centric). What is there is smoke in building next door and you are meditating? Think about it. Instead of meditation, being free of resentment - you would spent time outdoors in the sunshine, eating ice-cream outside, you would notice the smoke and call fire-fighters and possibly save someone's life.
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"Then if someone crosses your line, you calmly and confidently point that out.
It’s as simple as that."
Unfortunately it is not easy for people with (complex) trauma, or having close person belittling and criticizing them every day over smallest things (thus us being unconsciously programmed to believe us to be wrong and incompetent in anything by default). People consciously know they need to calmly, kindly and politely explain themselves and what bothers them about other people, but in reality they cannot break the ice. It is almost next to impossible. Why?
Because we try to control and influence other people without being aware we are doing this control. If we try to control people and events that simply cannot be controlled, we set ourselves for cognitive distortions - mental instability in the long run.The problem are not other people, neither our fear of confrontation, nor our boundaries. The core problem is our hidden and long forgotten resentment that we have learned as children. At some time we (people who have hard time to set boundaries, to speak up) taught ourselves as kids that if we shut up, avoid and pout, hold grudge and have resentment - that in this way we will control, influence and change others, we believed that magically somehow people will change eventually by themselves when they see and realize the hurt they are done to us, simply by us holding a grudge. Later we forgot this child(ish) response to trauma, but we continued to do this unhealthy pattern later in life, not knowing what is blocking us to stop self-censor ourselves and speak up the truth (someone being exploitative for example). If we fix this wound by deep forgiveness, by having forgiving mentality (instead of ego-centric stuck mentality from childhood in form of resentment, defensiveness, irritability, indifference, alienation) we can be at peace. Once we are at peace (by having forgiveness inside) we can now be virus-free = resentment-free, and we can do, think and act from the place of true calm, instead of forced, panicked response that stems from wrong learned lesson from childhood. We can now alarm&alert someone if they are rude - if we wish to, or we can ignore them if we choose to, but we will be at peace, by not holding a grudge. That is new grudge built upon our wound-grudge from childhood. Einsten said, the wisest person will ignore rude people - but we now can come to the place where the other person is not important at all. The most important thing is our goals, tasks, dreams, things to fix and repair and good people who we take for granted, and otherwise for whom we have no time to be around with even when we are physically beside them, since we would focus on rude people as our primary concern. It is time to let go of resentment and live with forgiveness attitude.
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Almost one year since I tried this, it would be fair to come back here and confirm it works.
Curtis done amazing job, unfortunately it might be unrecognizable to wider public.
Perhaps this information will help someone:
For me, my social anxiety started when a group of kids that I used to play outside of my flat yelled, mocked and screamed at me. They (as group) turned their back and left me alone. I was very scared, run to my room...and stayed there for the rest of my life :D I was 11 or 12 at the time. I literally stayed in my room, no parties, no bars, no concerts, no hanging out, nothing.
This was not the only incident though, but it was start of my choice to avoid people that stayed stuck as habit. I knew how it started, this was my bully event. As adult, I am people pleaser, pushover, I am afraid of conflict, codependent, PureOCD intrusive thoughts, I am afraid to speak up and defend myself even when I am being accused of something not wrong, I have approval addiction. As I understand, this all coupled into Complex Trauma (that contains avoidance and social anxiety). Until curtis video. His video suggest pouring love in the imagined hole inside your consciousnesses.
Last week I found out what caused social anxiety and what is producing fear inside me, being unable to react to people.
The prior incident to bully event, there was also situation where I left the kids party because someone sit in my place.
Then it flashed in my mind thanks to Roy Masters tape I listened to.
As a kid I pouted. I held a grudge. I held resentment. And I forgot about it. But I kept pouting, holding grudge and resentments as years went by, as a habit that I was not aware of doing. Resentment is a virus - it wrecks havoc and causes mental illness, mental instability. My need to resent is my need to control people (those kids). I believed if I pout, others kids will see it and then they will change, I will control them and influence them into becoming better and treating me with respect. To control people and events is cognitive distortion. We cannot control people and events. So the solution is deep forgiveness.
This is where curtis video comes in. This is why it helps. The love is shortcut to mental stability. But for me, I like to know what is bothering me, what is under the hood. I feel much more relief when I know why i react to people with panic and fear, why they trigger me, where it comes from. It comes from my hidden resentment and my hidden need to control others. With deep forgiveness I can keep on doing and keep on choosing whatever my gut, instinct, sanity and prior experience tells me to do is the best, but I feel peace. I can now focus on my task, jobs, repair and fixing, needs and desires, good people I took for granted - instead of wasting energy, time and focus on overthinking and worrying what will other people think of me. I know now I worried only because I resented them and I wanted to control them into becoming better people. Which is impossible. I can alarm and alert them, if they do not change I can either ignore them or leave them, but the difference is - now I have a peace of mind. The mind clears up without the resentment virus and everything is easier than before.
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30-apr-2021
For me codependency was result of panic, fear and anxiety and my fawn response (instead of other F responses: fight-flight-freeze). My fawn response was reaction to others when they are hurting me by their aggressive attitude (or as I perceive they hurt me) through not letting them hurt me by their screaming, yelling, attacking. I thought if I people please them, show them I am addicted to people approval, being pushover, somehow magically they would realize what they are doing and by magic they would stop being monsters and they will start being decent human beings. I was not aware of this magical thinking, it was subconscious. To me, it appear as normal reaction - if I avoid arguments and conflict in order to keep peace, the best way is to people please others, look at myself as invalid by default, and their words and persona as super intelligent, competent and valid - as oppose to my inferior, afraid, unskilled self.
For me, the way out of cognitive distortion loop (me trying to control other people by not being aware I was controlling them through codependency and fawn) was through deep forgiveness instead of my habitual hidden, subconscious resentment, grudge and pouting. I know rude people from my past (and those in the present) that I try to people please have their own cognitive distortions and their aggression is the result of their own deviation, their aggression comes from their need to change, influence and focus on other people. You can't stay mad at mad people, you forgive them. Resentment is virus, in the long term it produces mental instability and plethora of mental issues - on the person who holds grudge. Then instead of holding on to resentment, from the place of forgiveness it is much easier to have clear mind and decide what to do next - either ignore or alert/alarm them , and then instead of being focused on them, I can focus on my goals, tasks, things to repair, better life and finally have more time and energy for good people I would took otherwise for granted (those who really deserve my attention).
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I know you are not subscribing to "wound", "complex trauma" concept, but I would just like to add, there are people who got tripped up in their childhood (for me it was bully event that lead me to social anxiety and avoidance) and consequently our reality became distorted as adults, since we did not grow up in some areas that we got stuck at.
This means, it is extremely hard to get out of the rut of being in bad guy mentality (being afraid of everyone and everything, victimhood mentality, inferior complex).
What helped me is realization that certain ego-centric beliefs such as resentments (grudge and pouting) are viruses and they infect us, In long run they cause mental damage. This means, I get programmed as in matrix. From this zombie state it is very hard to wake up from coma and realize how to step into hero zone. And the answer is easy once I identify the virus. Deep forgiveness worked for me. Without resentment it is very easy to have clear mind and good basis for anything in life instead of self-sabotaging myself through holding on to hidden grudges (me trying to control other people by pouting).
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Rudeness is very complex and serious topic, much detrimental than it looks at the surface.
It is connected to our personality even though we are not aware of this. It is connected to our response to stress, even though it may look like normal everyday thing that we should not pay much attention and in fact that it is best to ignore it (but secretly hold grudge deep inside, well buried inside us).
"Not taking personally rude people, ignoring"
- Problem is that we understand that people who are strangers are insecure and pick fights therefore not worthy of our energy. Problem is we do not understand what happens when you are with someone you know, at family or at job, where you cannot shut them out. To ignore someone - that is paradox because ignoring something signals to our brain to pay more attention over something. Over time, it turns into intrusive thoughts, anxiety and we have no idea where PureOCD (obsessing, thinking loop) is coming from. Our effort to ignore is creating complete the opposite - we are focused on rude people with time. Brain is built this way. If we ignore something, brain interprets this as something is dangerous, and brain will discover new ways to ignore, in order to minimize potential new danger. This is loop into avoidance, social anxiety, and thus panic attacks - which we can respond as fawn, if we are based on kindness. This will lead to codependency. Problem is also that narcissists, bullies and psychopaths are drawn like moth to a flame to kind, good people who ignore them. Then we have additional problem. We both ignore and avoid them, we signal those psychopaths that we cannot escape from (due to job or family) for them to push forward and cross our boundaries. This means more rudeness. This avoidance and us being kind also cause additional troubles - the lack of skills how to defend ourselves. With time, all these turns into inferiority complex. Kindness works for 95% of population and for 95% of time. Unfortunately the rest 5% are extreme problem, since kindness works like trojan horse - it turns us into mental instability mode because it leaves us defenseless (ego-centric, childish mentality). There is a better way as adults. We need to alarm and alert rude people. As you said, some people need to be confronted. However, if we have root at kindness - it leaves as in state of panic. We cannot confront anyone. We believe we are inferior, and others appear strong and competent to us simply because they are loud, angry and violent. So instead, we need to change our thinking and perspective and concept how we look at everything. Kindness does not work for 5% of life. And this 5% with time accumulates to 95% of us being mentally unstable. Other people do not make us crazy, even though they are crazy -- we are responsible for our own mental health. Our reaction (over-reaction or under-reaction such as ignoring) will make us mentally unstable if we are kind and nice to abnormal people and situations (5% of our life events).
"We don't aim to change them, and we strive to make them realize that being not polite doesn't do good to anyone, even for themselves. We show kindness as much as we can give"
- Yeah, if we try to change people or event, that is cognitive distortion. We cannot change other people.
But this is where it becomes complex - what to do when someone is rude, when they cross our boundary constantly, and at the nit-picking level that is not normal complaining, it is sick and abnormal. What to do in these special situations caused by special people (sociopaths)? We can be kind...however the complex part is that there are toxic people out there. As I said, narcissists, psychopaths - they pray upon kind people. Our kindness will attract mad ,manipulative people (narcissists). They love their targets to be kind to their unreasonable abuse and abnormal treatment, gaslighting. Everybody perceive their reality from their own world. Thus, kind people see everyone being kind. Kind people cannot believe there are truly evil people out there with no other agenda but just to be evil. We are hypnotized into being kind and we are unaware of evil, evil people. The messages we received from our spiritual, media and environment sources teaches us to be kind. But this message is not intended for kind people who are already kind, who were kind, and who will always be kind into no matter what difficult situation. So we are not aware there are evil people out there. However, Mark Twain's book "Mysterious Stranger" made me personally realize (wake me up) that there are out there people who do not care at all. They do not have "care" chip inside them, that was very shocking revelation for me, but it helped me to later realize, if I am kind - people will take advantage of it.
Which later I realized, that I used kindness as a way to change rude people. That my childhood reaction to trauma (reaction to unkind kids) was the root problem. Fawn is one of 4 F responses to trauma and shock (fight-flight-freeze-fawn).
I realized this is the reason why 1) I simply cannot ignore rude person 2) I cannot argue with them. I would self-censor myself and I would not defend myself. Later in life, I continued to control people through being kind, and I was not aware that my people pleasing is form of kindness, which is form of avoiding confrontation, which is form of trying to change someone who is rude into becoming normal human being. This control was unconsciousness. Now I know. Instead of kindness, it is clear to me that forgiveness, deep forgiveness is more intelligent way to deal with anything in life. Forgiveness entails kindness, however in special circumstances (5%) I can allow myself to be unkind. Forgiveness also allows me to truly ignore someone if I choose so. With kindness I have resentment. With forgiveness I have no grudge, and thus no unnecessary mental decisions that are unhelpful. I understand I cannot change people. Trying to change people or events is cognitive distortion. Being kind in all situations is not healthy for us. Having forgiveness allows us to be kind in all situations but it also entails expressing tough love, or leaving the abuser, ignoring them. It also allows us to alarm and alert them without fears and panic. The fear is now gone because I have no ulterior hidden subconscious desire to change someone. It allows me to stop self-censoring myself and tell my truth. I can be authentic. Being kind when something bothers me is un-authentic. We are not showing our real face. People sniff this out, it makes them even more ruder. :D
Without resentment, we free our mind from mental instability and we can now be free to focus our time, energy to our goals, tasks, repairing, bettering our life and to give our energy and time to good people that we would otherwise take for granted. Instead of wasting our time in ignoring or contemplating the revenge or ways how to confront someone who is rude, annoying, aggressive - we can do it with clear mind and without hold-ups, without anxiety. Zoroastrianism as oldest religion that other major religions stem from - have a very wise instruction: Be authentic. Be kind - do good, think good , speak good - but also be authentic, speak the truth. If we are not evil, if we do not want to harm anyone, if we do not want to cheat anyone, if we are not corrupted, if we do not want to hurt anyone- then we are just and we can speak our truth - if we choose to. Deep forgiveness allows us to stop self-censoring ourselves. This may entail, sometimes, to be unkind. But the difference from rude people is that our unkindness is paradoxically based on kindness. If we force ourselves to be kind always, that is a form of manipulation of other people. Resentment is virus. Pouting creates mental illness in long run. Better way is having mentality of deep forgiveness. It allows ourselves not to be perfect. It allows others to make mistakes too. It makes us automatically stop and think before reacting, taking all facts in consideration, as you said, this collecting information is already present in introverted people. We just have to potentiate it, make use of it in constructive way, turn a notch on for few bars up knowing that resentment is parasite that might feel good, but it does damage inside us, without us being aware of the damage.
2-may-2021
"those are great starting points"
You are right, but I deal with social anxiety for decades now. I have taken it from all perspectives, so I can see clearly something that may not be obvious at first, and what may seem surprising to you. Small chat is great, absolutely no problem. It is often suggested by people who do not suffer from inhibitions to advise shy people to start small chat to break the ice and test social situations. However, social anxiety means something is going haywire with social contacts and us being in social situation. It is far more serious issue than simple chat, even though it may seem as good advice to people who do not suffer from social anxiety. Having social anxiety means it is our weak spot. Beside this, most people with social anxiety are introverts or have higher IQ, and both of these types hate small talk hehe. It is annoying. :D Unfortunately, there is another issue that I mentioned in my comment before - as my experience shows it, there are certain people who exploit any weak spots.
If we have attitude of having combination of being open and afraid, unfortunately this means we have problem hehe. We are great, amazing, friendly and kind people - and we got nothing to change here. But there are people who exploit our good nature. If we are afraid, we are easy target for aggressive people and exploiters. Most probably, that kind of people is exactly what lead us into social anxiety. We got opened and someone hurt us and we got stuck with fears and now we are expecting the hurt again - this anxiety, fear from unknown. Social anxiety people value social contacts a lot. Beneath anxiety, we are excellent chat people, we just need to get rid of anxiety. We do not actually need small chat to learn anything, we already have it inside us, it is buried inside, like water on Mars or Moon. It looks barren on the first look but it is full of water beneath the surface. Anxiety means we are in social settings operating from heightened tension. This means, we need to calm down as priority before any small chat. We need to realize we are over-reacting, and sometimes under-reacting. When we are calmed down, we can be in better mood and have more confidence, for example to alarm and alert someone who cross boundaries. We need to learn what to do then our worst case scenario comes true - someone being critical, rude and aggressive to us. Small chat with strangers is excellent tool to learn how to break ice, but it also leaves us open to intruders. Small chat won't help much about how to handle conflict and feelings of inferiority that prevent us from standing up for ourselves, not self-censoring ourselves.
3-may-2021
"To learn how to combat hostility, what would you recommend? This is something I struggle with as well"
Yeah, I struggle as well, this plagued me since 1989, long term social anxiety for me hehe.
"how to combat hostility,"
It is complex. Problem is both that there are people who are hostile, but our social anxiety is greater problem, how we observe hostility. To make it more complex, we are now hostile ourselves because we were attacked before, we have trauma from hostile people of our past and this triggers social anxiety symptoms. So we will interpret hostility everywhere. We are very acutely aware of slight hostilities from other people. Most of the time, this hostility is taken as norm in developed countries. It is normal to mock, criticize and make personal attacks as something as cheerful, funny, friendly and as normal part of conversation. While we are deeply frustrated by innocuous comments. Toxic people will of course use this weak spot in their advantage. They can easily accuse us of being snow flakes whenever we protest someone crossing boundaries. They will happily accuse us of being victims and seeking attention - while they are the ones being rude and obnoxious. Social anxiety folks will draw toxic people like moth to a flame since our vulnerability is very attractive for them to exploit and we are not aware they do it, we are focused on our pain, so we walk around in life with hand brake on, while others seem to have much simpler and smoother social interactions then us.
I wrote about this social anxiety interaction very detailed manner on my blog:
https://77ranko.blogspot.com/2021/03/managing-social-anxiety-and-toxic-shame.html
People with social anxiety have low self esteem and low self confidence mostly because we avoid social settings and we miss learning how to deal with people so we lack experience to build our confidence upon.
I learned that the best way to deal with hostile people is to alarm and alert them, to speak our side of story, but this is extremely hard for social anxiety sufferers because we feel toxic shame (this means we see ourselves faulty by default and other people competent and strong so we must shut up and listen to them and never confront their dumb ideas or opinions).
To make long story short - to combat hostility as I realized works best for dealing with social anxiety - is to minimize our feelings of resentments and counter-intuitively to develop forgiveness instead. With social anxiety everything and everyone will appear hostile to use. This is waste of our resources and in the end we appear unmanly, like drama queens. Resentment itself is childish and it is not functional if we choose to hold onto grudges. We cannot come up with solutions with sulking attitude. By being constantly offensive, we damage our own mental health in long term. We think we will and must win any argument by being hostile ourselves. Most of the time hostility that social anxiety folks feel from others is in our heads, it is imagined and it is not real. It appears very real and hurtful to us, but it is illusion and we will realize this if we look at hostility with objectivity. This is why social anxiety is more serious than having shyness. Many times you probably had experiences where you realized you over-reacted to something. That is "normal" reaction to abnormal settings. Our brain make us believe we are in constant threat, we feel anxiety in any social settings, uneasy. We forget to calm down, we feel better if we hold onto expecting and interpreting hostility because we learned ourselves as kids this is the best way to protect ourselves. But it is faulty learned response that stayed stuck with us as we grow up.
The solution to hostile people for social anxiety folks is like ancient Chinese philosophy and combat tips from Sun Tzu and Confucianism or ancient Greece Stoicism. They tell us that what we hate we will become ourselves. They say that if we will hate we are already defeated by our enemy. That is true, because choosing resentment is choosing mental illness but we are not aware of the detrimental effects of resentment and hostile attitude. Paradoxically, the more we cultivate friendships instead of enemy mentality, we will easier deal with conflicts.
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Twitter:
"The more intelligent you are, the more annoyed you're likely to get by people in general, but at the same time keep quiet to avoid an argument."
The twist in the story is decision to avoid argument leads to social anxiety in long term. Because unconsciously we signal to others and to ourselves we are faulty. With time this accumulates in being submissive and belief our words do not matter, while dumb folks are being heard
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"Researchers estimate that two-thirds of humans have no idea what they're good at or what their strengths are."
Things start to be complex when we listen to toxic people who convince us that they are competent, and we are not and we should shut up, not express our experience and ideas. They persuade us in endless rat wheel of making impressions, giving us more levels to comp(l)ete.
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"People who are constantly suffering from emotional wounds tend to easily get annoyed with others for no apparent reason."
It seems to others like that, that is what makes it frustrating both for wounded and for observers. When someone is in pain other than blood, it seems like victimhood exploitation to others, unfortunately. We get annoyed by people who cry hurt but have no bruises to show.
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YT
I have learned that when social anxiety hits, I change, something similar as turn from Dr Jekyll into Mr Hyde persona. This means I can calm down and in calm mode, I can operate more freely. As I've read many self-help books, I remembered later that this is called "emotional hijicking". Our fears take over and they create additional fears that seems to us like one big huge fear - but it is snowballed fears. It means, we can shrink our fears by being aware I am operating from fear persona - even when there is no particular panicky, hard or extreme sensation outside to be afraid of objectively. This information helps a lot.
The second thing I learned is the solution to social anxiety. We who struggle with anxiety had trauma event in our past. Back then we resorted to childhood response to trauma in form of resentment and pouting and sulking. Later, we forgot about this response, but we continue to use it unconscionably later in life, as adults. The way out is deep forgiveness attitude instead of resentment.
The wound from trauma makes us very sensitive and on look out for any sign of criticism. From this mode we see everyone as hostile and they appear truly hostile to us, real or imagined. This is stronger than our logic because we are in fear persona without being aware of persona change. So, we can prevent this by having friendly mentality, even though others appear hostile to us. We will probably feel unnatural because we learned ourselves as kids to resent as reaction to hostility. The adult response to hostility is alarm and alert system. However this for social anxiety sufferers could lead us in grudge mode, since everyone irritate us and everyone appears hostile to us, everbody hurt us. To solve this grudge mode, is again having deep forgiveness attitude and give people a chance beyond shadow of doubt. Most people are unaware and they will stop their aggression if they are alerted and talked to. Our silence and being afraid to express our words will be thing of past if we recognize we are feeling resentment and when we take steps to diminish resentment. Unlike advice that is hard for us - exposing and being active - we can also do this task from our comfort zone. Work on our good mood, friendly attitude and forgiving everyone who hurt us in our past. We can make commitment to future trespassers that we will alarm and alert them only after we objectively collected all information about it, from all sides, so that we do not jump at any sign of hostility. Being friendly will make us calmer and thus we will avoid entering Mr Hyde personality fear persona. All this will help us experience social settings more calmer and less fearful.
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"A lot of people wont respect you. They can read you don't respect you."
This is paradox since it means we need to respect ourselves even when we are in people please mode (due to relentless fear).
"People will passively or directly bully you."
Don't forget the fact: Bullies also target socially friendly people, bullies target strong personalities - which probably we have and we are. Our fears are easy targets for bullies, they exploit other people. People pleasing is faulty behaviour, but bullying is criminally insane conduct.
"learn to say no more often"
This is ok and logical advice, but our fear won't allow it in reality. Fear is unknown. Until we enlighten our fears, we won't be able to draw our boundaries.
Which brings me to my point of view about people pleasing:
People pleasing is a part of Fawn response (as 4F response to stress: freeze, fight, flight or fawn). Fawn response means we are kind people and seek friendship and cooperation. Leading psychologists and philosophers envision cooperation/interdependence as ultimate goal for humanity and mental health and mental stability.
Therefore, our people pleasing is not so negative as it seems. It has purpose.
And the purpose is actually the solution to people pleasing choice.
The purpose is our attempt to control other people. We want to influence others through people pleasing, so that they become normal, kind people. We manipulate them, but not manipulate them to their gain money, service or anything out of them, other than we want subconsciously for them being normal, civilized human beings.
You are right social anxiety is behind it. We feel afraid by people, we were hurt before by them. As kids we unconsciously learned to pout and resent them and avoid them in order for them to change themselves from monster bullies into normal friendly cheerful children. Later as adults, we forgot this decision but we continued our resentment (need to control others) through people pleasing.
Other people cannot be changed. Other people cannot be handled, if we try to change others - that is cognitive distortion and it will produce mental instability and plethora of wrong choices that are chaotic and detrimental for us.
So the solution to all this is deep forgiveness. To have friendly attitude - instead of trying to changing others, we change ourselves. Paradoxically, this friendly attitude will also change other people with time :D
Friendly attitude entails, as you explained in this video - being authentic. Being friendly does not mean we shut up and self-censor ourselves. Being friendly does not mean we suffer and get by through injustice just for the sake of peace. Being authentic also means that we are authentic with ourselves. As traumatized kids, we will interpret anyone and everyone hostile. This means, we need to collect information and see any situation and people from all available perspectives, other than prism of trying to please them. The more we work to lower our resentment (ego-centrism) the more better options, functional decisions and excellent win-win ideas will appear in our minds.
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5-may-2021
This goes much deeper.
There is paradox involved. If we try to protect ourselves, we are reacting.
If we are reacting from the place of resentment, it means we try to control other people.
Controlling other people is cognitive distortion. (leads to mental instability - overthinking &anxiety - and delusions).
Also, with the accumulated grudge, it will be incredibly hard to say no, because we have invested anger and combat mode inside. Thus we'll be stuck in limbo - we'll have toxic behaviour outside, we'll have inner sulking inside, both ongoing in loop.
The way out is like Michael Jackson's song - the change starts with ourselves.
Drop the resentments and develop forgiveness mentality. Then it will be easier to react in adult way, saying yes or no in more natural authentic way.
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My response was also fawn. So as I understand, fawn is complex trauma response in general. This would explain why people with anxiety are in general very kind and mostly quiet people. This fawn was extraordinary discovery for me - since it explained being stuck in codependency mode and being unable to get out of loop. After it got name, definition, it was much easier to zoom out of people and situation. I learned about it only few months ago, while I struggle with social anxiety symptoms for decades now. As I learned social anxiety is not issue itself, it is under umbrella of much larger issue - Complex Trauma.
You helped me realize one another phenomena I was stuck with - for me living in environment where being pushy, loud and argumentative was sign you are healthy and "normal". So now I know where does need for perfection and outloud someone comes from - it is fight response to stress, not something that is "normal" or desired state of consciousness as I learned from my environment, it is not something good to strive for and achieve - toxic masculinity - it is simply non functional response to stress, faulty habit of people with low mental hygiene.
"Fawn is behavioral response. It is not one of physiological response."
Whoa! This is the reason why fawn was ignored by articles and literature in 90s and afterwards, back then when I learned about freeze and flight response to stress there was no mention about fawn - so I struggled with it in darkness. I thought it was some sort of rare particularity and non-related to my everyday anxiety. :D
"When we move out of that window we go to fight or flight which is our hyperarousal state"
oh yeah, this makes sense. Thank you. I thought I only select one mode - fawn, so this fight - flight response was confusing me. Hyperarousal/hypoarousal state and window of tolerance - I explained it to myself as Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde mode. I've noticed when I am triggered I function from the safe mode and I am not aware, it seems like normal settings to me, and that hurts me additionally because I explain to myself it will last forever, because I could not differentiate it from something that triggered me - as it is something temporary.
"shame and avoidance"
Yes, you are speaking out my life here.
I realized that my social anxiety started when as kid I decide to start avoid other kids and socializing because I was scared. I realized after I find out about complex trauma, only last month that it was because I was pouting and I decide to hold grudge - in order to change those kids that were bullying me. I thought if I avoid them, it will make them come to me and apologize for being rude and mean to me. Then as I grew up, I forgot this childish decision, childish response to trauma of being cast out of group - and I continued it unconsciously through people pleasing and avoidance. The resentment was underneath. My resentment towards anyone who is not living to my own standards of social behaviour. My need to control other people - without being aware I am controlling them by my avoidance and pouting. I was not aware I was pouting. I was not aware I had any resentment. It just seemed to me others we more competent and I was faulty. This generated shame, based on toxic shame I experienced as kid. So the way out of this loop altogether is developing mentality of deep forgiveness. Then I can see clearly and be authentic and react with more tolerance than being in panic and holding grudges.
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/loop:
anxiety = overthinking
Overthinking = intrusive thoughts.
Intrusive thoughts = PureOCD
PureOCD = Complex trauma
Complex trauma (PTSD) = wound
wound = holding on to resentment, grudges and pouting as a way to control people
resentment = virus that force us to control other people through Crusades
Control other people = cognitive distortion
cognitive distortion = anxiety
/repeat.
In order to exit the loop:
deep forgiveness = cure for any mental distress, including social anxiety
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I realized this silly belief that other people are valid came to me from constant and never ending nit-picking and criticism from my father. This way it gets programmed in my brain that if someone is loud and obnoxious, it automatically means they are valid and strong, while I am incompetent.
His erroneous belief that he is making me a service through his careful observations and correcting me made it more complex and feeding his criticism, without realizing the serious damage he is making in the process.
Instead of becoming good at something I became incompetent at everything.
I guess this is because all beating the dead horse criticism came when I would make a slightest mistake - and with time I generalized it that I am incompetent and other people - if I ask them for help - will yell, laugh, mock and attack me. So I choose to do nothing mostly avoid anything new and unknown and to avoid people, too. Last year I finally realized I am self-censoring myself, I already have knowledge inside buried deep, I am allowed to talk it out in open. If anyone would be slightly louder, I would shut up, only later to find out that my analysis was in fact correct - because living in the relentless fear forced me to look at any issue from multiple angles and dimensions. I've been forced to diminish ego-centrism (to be grown up mentally) but never expressed it and stayed ego-centric (childish) through avoidance.
Letting go of hidden resentments and developing deep forgiveness instead of hidden sulking is good basis for confidence.
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I would carry this gentle curiosity even further. Those of us who feel toxic shame, we often self-censor ourselves. We believe we should shut up, and probably loud people shut us up very easily just by them being loud and obnoxious- as you said,
"speak our mind when we want to"
The trouble is when we are not allowed to express ourselves and to be curious - asking for more information or to express our opinions. We won't be allowed by loud people (or by our loud fear - imagined loud people, imagined criticism and imagined mocking).
The problem are not loud people - real or imagined ones - problem is in our mind, how we explain ourselves what is going on. For example,
in social situation we might have social anxiety and be scared to talk about something. We feel anxiety if someone is rude and talks loudly. We might explain ourselves that this person is better, smarter just because he is loud - and we shut up, we censor ourselves to voice our opinions out - in the end we stop from being authentic and we stop from other people who are not loud to make friends with, because they do not know us.
Or we could explain ourselves in angry mode that this loud person is bully just like all the toxic people from our past and we must argue with this person just for the sake of arguing - and take it personally. We might explain to ourselves that this person - or group of people - is hating us (common explanation theme for social anxiety sufferers), so this too make us shut up.
Better solution is as you said, gentle curiosity. Being humble and kind so no one can accuse us of being loud and obnoxious. Being objective - if this person would hate someone just for expressing the opposing opinion, than this person has some serious issues, we are not problem. Being authentic and courageous enough to voice our opinion, to alarm and alert people who go overboard - make us feeling less inferior (that means, less toxic shame), and more to be on pair with others.
(6-may.-2021)
This won't work if you have trauma from past, unfortunately. We have to be aware what is going on under the hood (psychology aspect).
"Resentment is too often the result of being too nice or going along with something you didn't want to do."
Nice guys are very social and enjoy company of people, even if introverted, they value interdependence and cooperation (qualities that are pinpointed by best psychologist, philosophers and in fact any strong world personalities). As kids, we (nice guys) had some trauma, being bullied - and we decided, back then as kids to hold resentment, to pout, to sulk, and to hold grudge against others who bullied us, in order for other kids to stop bulling and that they become normal kids who treat each other nice.
Later, as we grow up, we forgot about this pouting and sulking decision, we totally forgot our childhood decision to deal with trauma - and our need for friendship - and we started to be nice guys unconsciously. The articles on the internet are right: Being nice guy is a form of manipulation and a way to control other people - but it is done out of need for having a pleasant environment, a need for company and not being lonely, knowing the tribe and community is being number one priority for us - without even being aware of this priority. All alpha male promoters will say that the tribe is the heart of masculinity and strength. They also think the same way as leading psychologist and philosophers about interdependence. Therefore, being nice is the clear signal this need is deep inside us. The need for cooperation. The long spoon allegory. It is not about manipulation of others to exploit them, rob them or harm them in any way.
The nice guys suffer from social anxiety (over-reacting strongly to conflict and rude people) because of this hidden resentment from childhood and also our need for friendship and socializing - inside parameters of psychological safety (pleasant environment where there are no arguments for the sake of arguing). This need for cooperation and long forgotten childhood resentment fuels nice guy syndrome and self-sabotaging behavior such as self-censorship. People who are silent are known to have better and more intelligent ideas than someone who runs on impulse and reacts instantly to everything in sheer panic.
The way out of this complex loop of people pleasing (that might last for decades) is very easy.
Remove or at least try your best to diminish resentment - and grow deep forgiveness mentality. For nice guys this will be incredibly easy, since we want to be nice anyway. Someone is annoying - forgive them. Someone is obnoxious - grow tolerance. This does not mean ignoring them and pretending the abuser do not exist.
Without resentment, and holding on to grudge our minds will free up, we will not be in prison (loop). We will be able to get free from relentless fear and never-ending anxiety, and THEN we will be able to say something, to confront, to react, not to self-censor - if we want to. We will be able to stand up for ourselves without fear, without overthinking afterwards. We will be able to ignore it- if we choose to, without intrusive thoughts after-effect.
Also,
Some people who appear aggressive and loud are in fact, putting it mildly, mentally sick. They appear competent and strong and unfortunately other people in managerial positions are not aware they are dealing with psychopaths. Others are hypnotized by their fake force and think they are able to solve problems and issues due to being rude and loud. We think we are dealing with someone who is sane because we are not able to psycho-analyze them and realize we are dealing with psycho. These people are very smart in acting and disguise and know how to gaslight and appear charming in the right moment. How can you trust someone who is not authentic and who is acting all the time? Someone who is not showing you their real face, but wear a mask all the time? What other people - including people in power - people who hire them - do not know, these people are prone to criminal behaviour. And thus they will create damage to company. They chase off competent and intelligent people and thus they create negative selection with time. They mock others and make intelligent people shut up, giving voice only to people with lower IQ. Bad apples spoil good apples with time. Loud, rude people are not competent - they exploit nice guys who fawn to them. They made their success upon dead bodies behind them. That is not normal and you never know when and at what moment they will simply terminate you. Loud, toxic people are not strong, they simply walk over pushovers, easy targets, they are parasites unable to do something authentic and with heart. Rude and lout people will with time resort to corruption and other criminal acts, and in normal and healthy country will be imprisoned - they will be caught in time. If we hate, we will become what we hate. If we hold resentments, other people can control us, we allow them to control us - by our decision to sulk and holding on to grudge. We can be happy by turning to gratitude and deep forgiveness for any obnoxious person.
Our prison - for nice guys, it is in our minds. When we fawn, we are reacting to our trauma,. When we are ignoring what scares us, we enable narcissists and toxic people to thrive. Reaction to stress may be fight - being bully and be in grudge mood. Without resentment we won't go that wrong road. Irritability is sign of immaturity, it is ego-centric thinking.
Without resentment we can be authentic. We can alarm and alert someone crossing their boundaries. We have resources to be sociable, funny, intelligent, resourceful, strong - it is buried inside us by our age and experience, we absorbed it, it is inside us. We just need to let it out, stop self censoring ourselves.
If we focus on issue about being 'nice guy', it is a matter of wrong perspective - the right perspective is always paradox - there are no nice guys. We put ourselves in mentality of resentment if we think in parameters of "nice guy". Both aggressive people and pushovers are victims of wrong perspective. They both want to control people. To control other people is cognitive distortion, it leads to many psychological negative side-effects with time, it is not healthy. Other people cannot be changed. Without holding on to resentment, we can accept others - and without our fears that resentment is producing, we can be authentic.
Paradox of confidence is - if we accept being non-confident and then we will be confident.
Paradox of respect is - if we are ok with something not being respectful we will attain respect (by not being drama queens).
Solution to all paradox is letting go. Letting go of hidden feelings of resentment that are hiding inside us.
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"what if happens if I don't stand up for myself (resentment"
Funny you mentioned resentment.
This resentment is not only after-effect, hehe.
The resentment inside us is present before it.
It is a virus. People with trauma will have incredible time to do anything, because of fear. Even when instructed what and how to do it because of fear. I found behind the fear is resentment from childhood. As kids we reacted to trauma with being resentful to other kids, we wanted them to change and become nice. Later, we hold on to that grudge without being aware we harbour resentment towards other people. Now as adults, it is very hard to do anything social that might become conflict - alarming someone - asking for something - ignoring someone obnoxious who is not important - becoming assertive - if someone might resent us back. Because they would mirror resentment back to us.
The solution is very easy - deep forgiveness mentality and attitude. Deep forgiveness attitude gives us strength and ideas to react appropriately, naturally to any given situation. Resentment is ego-centric, childhood leftover we carry into adulthood with us like Sisyphus his rock.
Resentment is cognitive distortion, we want to control other people. Other people cannot be controlled and changed. The need for this is deviation. Resentment grows mental instability with time. Forgiveness of everyone and at everything sets us free from mental prison.
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" You speak your truth clearly and set your boundaries with the best intentions to resolve it well for everyone. Because that's all you can control. When you accept that, you also let go of anger and resentment."
Good, well behaved and kind people have advantage they are not even aware of. They can get rid of resentment before. With deep forgiveness attitude we let go of need to control other people - the source of all our anxiety, bad ideas and mental instabilities.
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(7-may-2021)
I don't even know what that "phenibut" is :D I Googled it, it is some kind of unknown (to me) drug.
For me, social anxiety was never extreme. I simply chose to avoid people and spend my time in isolation whenever I could. That way I remained calm. I did not know about the resentment. That is why I am so energized to tell my story and my point of view, so you all could see social anxiety from different perspective.
Social anxiety won't go away, it will always be with us. We are naturally kind people and this is causing our anxiety. We want normal, peaceful environment. We want psychological safety. This is generating our fears because other people who are rude, loud and aggressive are mentally ill. They need drugs to calm themselves down, not us. They do not care about cooperation, they care only for personal profit, gain and torturing others for fun, mocking others.
We are not aware they are mad. This is creating very confusing messages for us.
We think other people are correct automatically, thus we give away our power of holding our own opinion and it makes us scared to confront or speak up our own opinion. We do it for the sake of peace. We think other people, especially those who are loud, obnoxious and rude also have cooperation in their minds. They only fake pretend to care (and they are extremely good actors, holding on to mask of charm and care), they are in fact narcissistic, abusers, exploiters - parasites of society. They appear strong and competent but they owe their success to kind people who fawn to them and whom they exploit, unwittingly. Rude loud people are unable to do anything new and authentically, since they base their life on destruction, hate and exploitation of others just for the sake of chaos. Unfortunately we cannot recognize this illness inside them because of our primary motive of safe environment - and we trust them. And we judge our world based on what we are aware, so we think all other people are like us - good and kind, even though who are obviously do damage. We explain it as they are having a bad day, or they are simply a stronger/competent so they are allowed to cross some boundaries. Loud and obnoxious, rude people are not stronger, they are simply aware of this process, while we are not aware, we are hypnotized - and they exploit us while we are dreaming. We are not awake. Because - we do this all subconsciously, we are not aware of it.
The only way out of this loop is as I said counterintuitive. But this is what it makes it incredibly easy for us, kind and good people. We simply forgive them everything and wait. We wait by having deep forgiveness attitude. We wait for fear to calm down. We wait and it will come up naturally inside us how to react and how to act and how to be confident. Now we can either stop self-censoring ourselves and be authentic - without feeling anxiety, or we can even choose to ignore a**holes without feeling intrusive thoughts about what happened and what they think of us.
Confidence is paradox - the more we feel being ok being non-confident - the more confidence we will have. The more we try to appear confident, the more we struggle to display it, the more anxiety & inferiority compex we will have - the complete opposite as result.
No drugs needed, calming down route is already inside us. Remove resentment, grow deep forgiveness, stop self-censoring your little voice that tells you and guides you from that state of calm, without holding onto grudge.
Social anxiety is also paradox - the more you are ok by having social anxiety by realizing it is a sign you are good person who wants positive and normal society, the less will be bothersome. If we are kind, if we mean no harm to others, if we strive to be positive and solve tasks and find better solution, there is no reason to self-censor ourselves and avoid any activities and people.
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There are shortcuts in Ikea, kinda like wormholes in space to get to far distances in instance. :D So that way we can quickly go to exit it is just hidden and not in plain sight.
Which tells us, we need to stop and search whatever bothers us - and that we have no choice to avoid it - for example buy item in complex and busy Ikea. If we decide to avoid it altogether or explain ourselves it is impossible and there are no solutions to begin to seek one in the first place, we will depreciate ourselves from resources in life. We will shrink our scope of movement, as stagnation is bad for health. Better solution is always whenever we feel overwhelmed and over-reacting - instead of harsh, jumpy decision that will probably be bad because it is made as fear instinct, instead just stop and observe and learn what you are dealing with. Instead of panic and running away (unless in case of immediate physical danger), just give yourself time to observe and see what you are dealing with. That is why we are here on Earth - to observe anyway, we are watchers. The less ego-centric we are (observe life from child point of view of seeking immediate gratification - for example soothing our fear without thinking and seeking all available information from different standpoints, being stuck in tunnel vision), the easier life becomes. The latest science from physics is telling us this observing phenomena is true, it is not only New Age/ surreal information.
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Yeah, resentment is always there. It is crucial. Surprisingly, it exists before, even before we become aware of it. It is a mind virus, it makes damage inside us, without us being aware what is going on and we are so unaware how much it impacts our mental health, mental clarity, and stability, and sense to follow inner voice naturally, be authentic.
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I love you brought up ego-centrism, it is so vital and important phenomena that deserves our attention, it is the key to happiness if we understand it deeply.
Ego-centrism is not only trait reserved for evil people. It is fourth Piaget's stage of development. This means, if we have trauma, we might also be and get stuck as ego-centrism ourselves. Ego-centrism is not being aware of other people point of view.
Ego-centrism is being childish.
Ego-centrism is not being adult.
Traumatized people get stuck at ego-centric stage and we never overcome it due to childhood trauma.
Therefore, we can conclude that toxic people are wounded children (that also got stuck during growing up - probably by having toxic parents who never showed them love and correct path) that in bodies of adults have means and tools to hurt other people. They mask their mental instability and we think we are dealing with normal, sane adult people, this is why they hurt us - because we ourselves see the world only through ourselves (which is definition of ego-centrism) - and we are kind, normal being. We do not understand there could be evil people out there because we are good and kind ourselves. We see it in movies and news but we never will be able to grasp there are people who are evil to the core. So the paradox is that if we see and explain there are toxic people, in the same time we are too ego-centric because we give them power - in form of seeing them as valid and competent human beings. And they are not, they are sick. Normal adult do not yell at others to prove point. Normal people do not resort to violence and aggression to react to something that we do not understand. Normal healthy people know they cannot control other people, need to control other people is cognitive distortion.
All this means - it is paradox - we are the problem if we see toxic people. Other people cannot make us insane, we are the ones who are doing it by reacting it in wrong way and with holding to resentment (resentment seems to us as a natural response to toxic people). Not having resentment therefore is counter.intuitive to us because toxic people are hurtful and they deserve to be punished. This need to react and to punish annoying people only makes us irritable (which is one of sign of ego centrism) and we feel fear inside, because we interpret it as threat. Now with fear inside, we are immobilized and we are not able to react in proper way. We ruminate, and create intrusive thoughts. Resentment is virus inside the mind that appears to us as easy solution to problem. We think it will give us energy to confront toxic people. Instead it gives us severe mental instability in long term.
The way out of this loop is very easy for kind people:
remove resentment and grow deep forgiveness mentality, which will allow us, give us strength to deal with life - including toxic people.
If anyone is interested in this topic, you may as well check my blog about ego-centrism test:
https://77ranko.blogspot.com/2020/10/egocentrism-test.html
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Thank you!
Great steps. This will definitely work for normal and sane people who are adults.
However I had problem with angry people who are not willing to listen, they dump their anger through demands, shouting, yelling and commanding - and then they simply turn their back and leave. :( Even when I start to talk and try to make interaction.
The secondary problem is also me, very sensitive to loud, rude people and I interpret them as competent, right, strong and better. The problem for me is my perception and explanation that I am inferior and I should shut up and not even defend myself - even when what they accuse me of is clearly lie and incorrect.
Some people are not willing to explain the problem (perhaps they are not intelligent enough to describe it). Some people are simply evil and they love chaos, they love arguments for the sake of arguments. Some people are incompetent but they hide this through cursing, yelling and constant never-ending anger - therefore all of them, they are unwilling to leave Psychological Refractory Period because no one touches, probes or questions loud and screaming drama queen.
As you said, empathy and validation is the key. Toxic people try to illicit resentment inside us, because when we are too angry, in stress, in Psychological Refractory Period, we also cannot think clearly and we are easy target to gaslight, to shut us up, to shut up the voice of reason and this gives clean hands for narcissists, abusers and other mentally unstable people who use anger as manipulation and victimhood. You try to defend yourself, they will accuse you of acting victimized. This is where empathy and validation steps in. If we diminish resentment, we will stay in calm place. In our calm place, we can naturally get answers and reactions to difficult situations and difficult people. One solution might just be after we alarm and alert those who are using anger as manipulation, and they keep doing it, is to leave them if we are not able to ignore them.
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9-may-2021
"If you stand up for yourself it's a trigger."
Yes! This is why we stay silent and we let manipuators take advantage of us. There parasite over our weak spot - our trigger, our trauma, our fear, our need for psychological safety, our need for good kind positive environment of cooperation. This is generating sense of dread and anxiety and fear - and we are feeling very afraid to stand up for ourselves. So we self-censor ourselves in order not to rock the boat any further. We have inside the voice what to speak out but we are not able to voice it out.. This is a mental prison and we are captured by our response to stress - to fawn.
I found out in order to calm down the fear - work on our own sense of deep resentment, grudge and pouting. Imagine resentment as being Shirley Temple in her kid movies and having trademark sulking face. (hehe)
Now we need to find ways to get rid of our unconscious pouting - it is a virus inside us that appear as normal regular thought line inside us - thinking about revenge for example.
The more successful we are in developing deep forgiveness the more we will be able to feel calmer - and we'll finally be able to let go of fear and voice ourselves - if we choose to, or ignore loud, obnoxious people that trigger us, if we feel this is the best choice for particular situation.
It is not secret - spiritual, religious, psychiatry leading people talked about it for ages - but they never phrase it that way: that resentment is the generator of our fears, panic and anxiety, and our own mental instability in long term, if we hang on to it. We have resentment and we are not aware it is inside us. We miss definitions, to define it, that is the missing link. If it would be easy, everybody would be resent-free. It is time to live life without anxiety, and turn ourselves to activities and people - instead of fearing rude people, it is time to live again with full lungs.
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Resentment is virus, so it is very clever to camouflage itself inside us and thus creates damage. And it is not so easy to find it.
Without resentment we can have much clear mind how to act around toxic people. We can even ignore them if we are in a situation where we cannot escape them (job, family).
Other people do not make us mentally unstable, we are doing it ourselves, we are responsible for our own mental health. Even though the other person may be extremely rude. The need to control other people is cognitive distortion - and this is what Karen's are doing. They try to control us and they try to control people. That is mental illness. The natural reaction might seem to do the very same thing - thus the virus is replicated and people are infected. In the end we have toxic environment where everyone is grouchy, depressing, angry and hurtful all the time, irritated. That is what makes it toxic.
I've decided to make a list where resentment virus could be hiding
https://77ranko.blogspot.com/2021/05/surprising-places-where-resentment-is.html
Natural remedy against resentment is developing feeling of deep forgiveness. I like Mother Theresa quotes, she is excellent guide how to develop serenity and peace inside when faced with toxicity around us.
(14-may-2021)
"she said they don't really know how their behavior affects others, and I'm not sure I believe that- especially after you tell them and they keep doing or saying whatever it is you've spoken to them about."
This is because you perceive the world from your heart and mind which is normal. There are people out there that are twisted and it is hard for us to understand that there are people out there who truly enjoy having arguments all day just for the sake of arguing (not to reach the point).
We can see it on TV, read it in newspapers, but it is very hard to grasp that there are people out there without the soul.
For me, the book "Mysterious Stranger" by Mark Twain (available in audio on You tube) helped me to get vaccination shot to finally start to recognize these virus people.
Listen to this:
"Can you imagine an elephant being interested in spider, carrying whether he is happy or isn't or whether he is wealthy or poor or whether his sweetheart returns his love or not. Or whether he is looked up to in society, or not. These things can never be important to the elephant. They are nothing to him. Man is to me as the red spider is to the elephant. The elephant has nothing against the spider, he cannot get down to that remote level. The elephant is indifferent. If it came in his way and cost nothing - I have done men good service but no ill turns."
Which is quite revealing quote because it explain both the secret of sociopath's strength and the vaccination against it.
They are indifferent. That is their force and hidden secret. When you are indifferent, you are calmed down to any stress and you seem to solve life problem's easier - so they are viewed in society as competent and strong people. In the same time they hurt others and provoke reactions - because they know that when others are living in response to stress (anger, yelling, screaming, attacking, rudeness...) that makes you immobilized and weak and inactive and codependent and make you believe you are incompetent.
Actually they are not competent, they just scare good and hard working people into fear, and then they are parasiting over hard labour of frightened people that they scared into submission and inferiority hypnosis.
The solution is very simple - to become indifferent ourselves. We do this - by counter-intuitively - removing resentment. That is the secret. Replacing it with deep forgiveness. Now we are in the state of calm and we can operate in full, from the place of light and peace - which may or may not entail some tough love boundaries or simply ignoring. (Before, with being scared, we would overthink and try to please our perceived superior super-confident superman). Manipulators learned intuitively that when they scare someone, the other person will resent them back. This is because in our society, we are programmed to appear strong, super confident and perfect. This is paradox because instead of confidence, this need to be perfect makes us inferior. Narcissists cracked this hidden psychological code and they abuse it against us, into their advantage.
We become what we hate. So if we hate narcissists, we will become narcissist ourselves, being irritated and over reacting to them. Being calmed down stops activating our stress response system and we can operate normally.
Resentment is the seed of mental illness and being possessed like in a 70's possession movies by bad spirits. Resentment is virus of mind because it looks like super easy solution to solve feelings of injustice and fear, but it is actually virus code that destroy us from inside. Narcissists also run this resentment code, but instead of deep forgiveness they realized they can manipulate others to achieve the feeling of indifference which gives them calmness. They are in vicious toxic loop of mental illness and searching good and kind people to fuel their careers and personal lives, instead of deep forgiveness. They learned this secret from their toxic parents and toxic friends. They noticed that their temper tantrum works magic for certain people who are normal, healthy, kind and unaware that there are people like them who thrive on the loop of hate and hurt. So we can have compassion for them and deep forgiveness both for mental health and as the only way to protect ourselves from vampires. It is the battle of good and evil and solution is inside us, we just enlarge it and super impose it - capacity to love.
---
17.5.2021
Introverts are not afraid to talk to people. Mostly, they are annoyed by small talk and appear they are afraid to others.
Afraid to talk to people - means you are reacting to possible other people negative reaction. The more stronger reaction means there is some trauma from childhood (bully event?). Being afraid to talk with people is not because you feel or label yourself as introverted, otherwise all introverted people would be afraid to talk to people and it would be widespread. Anyway, there is something called ambivert.
'5 second rule' is emotional hijicking. I call it Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde persona change or being in safe mode in Windows operating system. We respond by over-reacting and we are not aware we are triggered...and then via emotional reasoning we equate our feelings with absolute truth. We feel scared, then it means we are negative and everything is negative.
To find people to sit with them is fawn response - thinking all people are good and we must be friends with everyone otherwise we are weird or insane or problem. This need to socialize is expression of positive, friendly, good people but Narcissist abuse people like us, they parasite on our need to socialize and talk. Since we see our reality from our own perspective, we are unaware and we cannot recognize there are people who are basically evil and exploit others and ruin their self esteem.
The small chat and friendly attitude is already inside us, we do not need to learn it. What we need is the opposite - how to deal with sudden shocking arguments and unprovoked personal attack. How to balance our over-reactions. How to deal with our social allergies and difficult/annoying people. How to stop self-censoring ourselves and how to express our opinions without the need to control other people. Or deal with trauma by diminishing hidden resentment and grow forgiving attitude mixed with activity and making old contacts alive again.
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"talking to people a lot however I do still struggle"
That was a huge problem for me. With social anxiety I was convinced that once I am not avoiding people, that I am cured and have no social anxiety. The mechanics of talking made me think I am more confident now and avoidance/SAD is gone,
but in reality, the problem stayed within because my social anxiety started when as 12yo I decided to resent bully kids and started to avoid them and I decided never to go out and started to hang in my room. Later I forgot this grudge decision but I kept on repeating pouting lesson from childhood that I copy-paste in social settings. I was unconsciously trying to control and influence others by avoiding them. I unconsciously thought that mean rude people will change once they see in my pouting reaction that they are hurting me and thus they will stop being aggressive and hurtful. That is why simply chat with people and ignoring the rest - ie not going in deeper inside - might not solve the wound inside that springs up the lifelong worries, intrusive thoughts, social fears and anxiety.
I realized the resentment I learned as kid was the source of mental instability and the solution is very simple - having forgiving attitude. This way I could easily deal with my over-reactions and fear symptoms in social situations. Instead of being OCD focused on possible negative comments from others, now I have more time to be calm and be authentic, respond to situation as life goes by, not by following some set of instructions and step-by-step program.
19-may-2021
The more we are aware of areas we do automatically the more we can correct wrong learned responses.
This is actually a test for those who struggle with other pushy (rude) people. Some people like me have grown up in toxic environment. I have been warned, criticized and belittled for any slight mistake ever since small age. Both by parent, teachers/instructors and complete strangers. I'm talking about being shouted at, yelled at literally for learning how to play a guitar or drive a car. Not to mention regular school (being slapped even in kindergarten by nanny and physically assaulted both by teachers and bullies). This created for me fawn response because I was physically and verbally assaulted if I done something non perfect. In toxic environment it is expected from you to do something perfect if you do it for the first time, without exercise or time to do it few times. I don't think that people who never grow up with this toxic shaming or people who learned to respond aggressively to it, will never understand the suffering and fears and anxiety that targeted child feel inside. It is stuck with you into adulthood as automatic codependency (Belief that I submit & comply to others who are competent just for the fact if they are loud and aggressive over my mistake) and inferiority complex (The need that I must prove I am valid by going overboard) and thus I must self-censor. When I grow up, the official advice was not to get bothered by unfair people - but this advice is not good for people like me who went through trauma. To not get bothered means reinforcing belief that I am worthless and other people are competent. To not get bothered (ignoring) means to self-censor and keep quiet - which in toxic environment means to encourage evil. Advice to ignore evil (for the sake of inner peace) to wounded people translates as not being authentic and fawn to manipulators.
Growing up with these learned helplessness mentality makes you care a lot what someone thinks and expects from you (as a way to defend yourself and constant trying to satisfy others in order for them not to pick up on my pain, hurt, wounds), and someone's complaining, (even small) criticism is producing intrusive thoughts - being deeply afraid how other people might react if I do something wrong and how to prevent it by being perfect or super quiet. For some people it is not something it can be shaken off easily at the press of button.
The first step I learned to deal with this complex toxic shame web was to recognize my own resentment and try to diminish it, replacing it with deep forgiveness attitude. Because you become what you hate, and toxic behaviour is ongoing if reproduced. Without resentment we can connect to authentic self and make best decisions how to evaluate what other people think - is it important or not, respond to mind games or evaluate that I have been over-reacting due to past trauma, and thus it is not important to think about it any more.
21-may-2021
In Catholic church you need a friend to take some older sacraments. Also in Slavic countries, you need to have best men if you want to get married. Unlike in USA movies or Las Vegas, the chaplain cannot replace your best man. It is expected if you're gone, best man will take care of your kids. These 2 examples I know where life requires us to have a friend.
Unfortunately, whatever the reason (social anxiety), the need for companionship and having a friend has the two detrimental by-products: 1) narcissists and abusers seek people who are open for friendship, only to take advantage and use them, makes us easily to be controlled by them. These sociopaths sniff this need easily, they are vampires and good, friendly people attracts bullies like moth to a flame, unfortunately. 2) the need to have friends leads to our automatic fawn response which if in extreme can lead to low self confidence, codependency and approval addiction, self-censorship. I think this is where your impostor syndrome pop up from. Mine was more to inferiority complex.
I started to avoid people in 1989, but had strong desire to make friends ever since 1994 but I got lost along the way how to do it with plenty of narcs (constant complainers, drama queens and plain money borrowers) to suck my time, energy and resources away from me :D
I don't know, it is like in Bjork song Human Behavior, human behavior does not make sense- I guess like in a movie Pump up the volume, we need to face the music and try to talk.. and see where it leads. Being authentic and keeping the right attitude - not wanting to hurt or harm anyone. I would self-censor myself, I think that was the wrong turn for me for so many years. I'll be following Zoroastrians advice - be honest yet kind, we already have good thoughts, good deeds, good actions inside us, we just need to show them out to the world, not hide it away. Being aware of 2 perilous by-products of being open to making friends.
---
22-5-2021
"none of us have right to judge others for being vulnerable."
That one stuck with me. Maybe it has to do with porcupine dilemma:
"Being the prickly creatures they are, the hedgehogs are now stuck in a paradox: They'll suffer from the cold if they're too far apart, but they'll stab each other if they get too close. Here, the best compromise is to find a safe distance where their quills don't meet but the cold is still tolerable."
It is as if we need to evaluate and be objective in our head - am I under attack for real or is it just my imagination. And most people are egocentric, they do not care on deep level about others anyway, so why would I take comments so personally anyway?
Are we annoyed by others by their obnoxious comments and their rude careless acts, or perhaps our own feelings of annoyance is the issue as over sensitivity? Perhaps if we get aware to discern those two, it would make sense more.
How millions of other people out there balance out personal and social lives? How they manage not to get hurt by criticism? How they keep friends by having patience for them being obnoxious? How they make time for mutual balanced relationship and retain balance in listening and talking, give and take balance?
Maybe they do not. Maybe most people have fake friends, being with others out of interest and personal gain? Maybe most of them parasite over needy and lonely people by controlling and exploiting them? Perhaps most of friendships we see out there are short term, superficial and won't last longer than few months? And only on the surface they appear perfect, happy, deep and long lasting.
Perhaps true friendship is rare occurrence.
(24-may-2021)
What we observe, it becomes alive. And from what we turn our back, it fades to gray and oblivion.
Because of our fears, we people please bad people. We seek approval addiction from abusers and takers. This way we give them our energy and that is what they want. We are not even aware of this dynamic, because from our standpoint, it seems like battle, a quiz, labour we need to do, task to be done. They feed of our attention and being in the focus. More temper tantrum they perform, the more afraid we are, the more they are sole focus in our lives. And we neglect good people in the same time. We do not people please good people. We tend to keep balance as primary concern and take care of problem at hand. Energy vampires are creating problems out of thin air. They victimize and present themselves as victims, nagging and complaining about everything all the time. Thus they steal our time, energy and resources we would otherwise give to good and positive, kind people. They steal it by screaming, gaslighting, confusion and making us afraid, they just fine tune what scares us. For example, being loud. To make things worse, we develop resentment - which is mind virus and causes cognitive distortions. And what we hate, we tend to become.
This narcissistic loop needs to be broken! The first step would be becoming aware it exists and how we contribute to prolong it, all unconsciously.
25-5-2021
I just had realization when you talked about Naturalistic exposure - my panic attack occurs when in presence of rude and violent people. But...that is natural response. It never occurred to me that I am made to feel that I fear in such situations. The problem is my mindset, I was taught by narcissists to feel ashamed if I'd feel fear is someone is yelling, that it is wrong for me to show being vulnerable, that I am not suppose to feel fears in situations when someone is aggressive.
28-5-2021
" I’m learning to release and step back which is also a grieving process after being angry and feel shame for so long"
Interestingly, your comment made me realize that I myself don't feel anger or angry - due to very message from video by Candace: "We take shadow of people who haven't healed because we don't want to feel the pain of their wounding".
For me instead of anger it was feelings of disgust, annoyance, irritibility and interpreting triggers (for example people's faces, the way they talk) as disgust, nausea, toxic (even though they are not - if only I could gave them a chance to stay more time with them I would be able to prove myself wrong).
This is extremely interesting for me because I am suffering to allergy to pollen (ragweed) since I was 16.
I knew all the time it was mental, something in my perception is causing this allergy, it must be some pattern in my thoughts that I do - and this is it! I equate danger with people who appear annoying to me (but in reality they are not, they only appear so) - and I never give a chance to meet and interact with those people, I just run away, close off or avoid. That is this same allergy to pollen going on inside my mind with my perceptions and thoughts!
Needless to say, once I started to actively work on being aware, my allergy to pollen subdued ever since 2015. The last summer was the lowest allergy reaction I had since 1993.
Hmm.. if we could go even further, perhaps your own anger feelings (based on trigger, not reality) are causing some long term physical ailment for you?
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"We take shadow of people who haven't healed because we don't want to feel the pain of their wounding".
If we mix this with narcissism and codependency information that states that codependents feel obligation, feelings of duty to tolerate obnoxious people - we come up with wrong ideas inside us that we built wrong ever since childhood.
For example, previously we might choose to automatically avoid, cut off and run away due to feelings of pain with triggers - while the correct approach would be to give people and situations a chance, we might find out something new, create new bonds - if we don't act on our triggers and shut ourselves down automatically every and each time. If we stop and evaluate people and situation, to see whether the feelings of danger is in my imagination or is the threat real?
And the wrong response would be to shut up and self-censor ourselves (due to obligation that was instilled inside us during childhood to endure unfair treatment) - now the correct way is to allow ourselves to react, to alarm and alert the other person once we know we were obligated to tolerate annoying, accusatory people.
The wrong way would be to have resentment, holding grudge, pouting and feeling irritation expressed through yelling back at them and over-reaction over someone who cross the line, the correct way would be to talk and discuss when someone is being critical to us. Instead of being quiet and putting up with it, the correct way would be to quietly bring focus back on issue.
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Excellent message, we can see what are the results of not setting boundaries - low self esteem and bullies taking advantage of us.
I like Direct approach - I've learned this from Zoroastrianism, to be honest and authentic - people dig this, although they might nag, but at the end of day people like for others in being honest with them, rather than keeping it all to themselves. They will never admit it, but people respect and value honest feedback even though the truth may hurt them.
We should set up boundaries -
However, this is where it gets tricky for some people.
People with Complex Trauma - who are having triggers from childhood - this is almost next to impossible task to achieve. It is because with our trauma, flashbacks, triggers, we are already reacting to everything - everything causing us severe emotional distress - this means crossing our boundary is simply someone being out there next to us. Someone might look alike or talk like abuser with the same tone, and this triggers us off. So we learned to avoid everyone - and we learned to shut up, otherwise we would come across like screaming banshee (drama queens), we would bark at every tree along our way. Also we were trained to self censor and shut up and to be super silent. To make things more complex - we are being taught by society to be friendly, open and chatty (which is positive and can help us to build network, friendships) - however for us with trauma, we were taught from our dysfunctional childhood environment, that we equate being friendly with people pleasing behaviour, and to be pushovers in order not to get hurt, plus to get accepted by everyone. We were trained to take abuse stoically, and it would be a sign of weakness if we tell someone we are being hurt. We were probably ashamed or beaten if we made protest to unfair treatment, as kids.
I am talking about this is because for people who cannot pass the setting boundaries trials, try looking for trauma and triggers, flashbacks and work on those first. We need to become aware to separate our past abusive events and what is happening objectively in present time. Instead of starting to say no to people and talk them back, we need to do a certain pre-task first. We need to first discern who is dangerous/annoying/obnoxious for real, and whom we label/perceive as such, but in reality they are not at all unfriendly, as they appear in our minds due to our triggers/trauma flashbacks.
Then we can try to speak up and stop self-censoring ourselves, trying the excellent Direct approach.
Otherwise, if we start to alarm and alert everyone whom we feel are crossing our boundaries - we will start crossing other people boundaries ourselves. And most people who do cross other people boundaries have such issues themselves; trauma, neglect and bad parenting in the past. They just learned to feel entitled, while quiet people learned to shut up and suffer in silence.
People with trauma think other people (in general) are really hating them, and this fear of other's hate also cause us to people please everyone, since we are constantly wrong, guilty and embarrassed, just for existing. We shut up and avoid confrontations, avoid defending ourselves because we see ourselves automatically guilty no matter what issue. Needless to say, as traumatized silent people, we are free lunch for narcissists and other psychopaths out there, just waiting someone like us without boundaries - to suck our blood (time, energy and money). This is why setting boundaries is so crucial skill for us. Instead of being focused on our fears (angry, loud, obnoxious people) we'd focus rather on good people, tasks, projects at hand rather then ruminating what happened and feeling bad and hamster wheel our thoughts into endless loop around abusive, difficult people.
Something magical happens when we finally start to speak up. People who were silent for years and decades will know what I am talking about. We were taught by bullies that we are stupid and we'd be ashamed if we spoke up, but once we realize we are not stupid and in fact we are very intelligent - as being the reason why we were silenced in the first place, is when we'll find strength to be direct, honest and authentic with people.
--30.5.2021
1 month ago
"I just remain calm and don’t let it change my mood like it didn’t even bother me lol"
People with trauma have huge problem with this. While most people manage to remain calm, certain percentage of people with already present accumulated rudeness cannot remain calm and it adds up to stew of low self esteem, low self confidence, fear and panic. To make things worse, most of them are not aware they have trauma and then they listen to most people like you, who somehow magically can and remain calm - and instead of realizing we need extra work to calm ourselves, we feel bad for not being "strong and competent" like you.
"I said that’s what I do lol, but definitely get where you coming from I use to be the same way, so I wouldn’t say magically because it takes practice"
As I understand for people with trauma it is not practice, it is about changing the whole perspective
"Just flash the rude person the "Evil Eye"."
That is resentment. Resentment is the root cause of all mental instabilities. Better and healthier approach is to be aware we cannot change other people, then to alarm and alert, and then avoid/ignore/leave if they do not change after you warned them about their aggressiveness.
" So many people are saying "ignore it" or "forget about it" as if it's nothing."
Yeah, if it sticks and if you cannot simply shrug it off no matter what technique, there is a high chance it is a trauma.
The worst part is short amnesia when we are triggered and we forget plethora of helpful advice or rules or guidelines.
I started a trigger list to help me remember what helps and to define it as well in order to recognize it when we are triggered:
https://77ranko.blogspot.com/2021/04/triggers-calming-down.html
----
A lot of commentators are talking about ineffective techniques - such as 'silence' or 'laugh it off' or 'being more rude and sarcastic'. This works for people who are rude once in a blue moon.
We are talking here about rude people who are always rude. It is their habit to be rude.
What I have found out is this technique: alarm and alert. You personalize alarm and alert to your identity, situation and the other person, how you will perform this technique. Extreme situations require you to be extreme. Most situation you can do it intuitively and by life experience or thanks to advice from such video presented here.
They (rude people) need to know how they come off to you and people around them. They need to know the reason why you will cut off communication with them in the future if the continue acting irrationally. If your job, security, home depend on such sociopaths, you must not aggravate them more. In such case, it is best to make long term plans of escape.
Alarm and alert means you can do it in kind way. You can and must be authentic. To shut up is psychologically very harmful for you, you block energy inside you, sets you up for illness in long term. Check out Zoroastrianism - it is in their religion to be truthful and authentic. Shakespeare said - 'Be just, and fear not'. If you are a good person, if you have no ill intentions, if you never harm anyone, if you have no intention to harm anyone, there is only misunderstanding or accident that may harm another person who is rude to you.
Example of alarm and alert: "If I am not yelling at you, why are you screaming at me, it is annoying, you are making panic and negative atmosphere here and make things worse."
For people who are feeling especially hurt, for people who feel the pain that won't come off (most people who actually open watch and listen to videos like this one), please try to look Complex Trauma information and see if it resonate with you. You may have hidden wounds from childhood, and rude people are triggers for this painful response to rude people. Most people have no idea they have PTSD from childhood, attached to their back like Sisyphus with his rock.
If so, you may check my ideas and information I gathered about it:
https://77ranko.blogspot.com/2021/03/managing-social-anxiety-and-toxic-shame.html
Rudeness is not superficial problem and it is far more reaching, deep and serious issue both in society and for individual than it appears on the surface.
https://youtu.be/r0RKoE6X_aA
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You are both right (Both Eric and Melcurina). That is what trauma is all about.
From Eric side, Eric was hurt and injured mentally in the past, he carries trauma along with him.
From all outsiders, Eric is over-reacting, because we are unable to time travel in get inside Eric's body and experience everything Eric has experienced and how he perceived the trauma hurt and later, his sister's triggering him.
Objectively, you Eric appear to over-react to everyone of us because mostly we had "normal" mothers and we care deeply for them and we would check upon them even if it comes out of as rude "order" from rude sister.
But in the same time, we did not experience your life from your own point of view, and we are unable to process the world through your eyes, from your own vantage point, so probably when someone "orders" you around, you perceive this as very and extremely rude act. You care for your mother, but the hurt of your sister behaviour is too much pain to bear and this is what you focus on - acute problem that is going on for your whole life - and it is hidden from the eyes of general public. While everyone else, we focus on immediate problem - healthcare of your mother. And you appear selfish and self-involved to us.
No matter what, I would try the same thing as I try with my own triggers - try as much as possibly to remain objective and evaluate the situation - what is really important in given situation. For example, health care of family member is the most important thing in the world. You have to put aside your past hurt - and deal with it later, not to ignore it. In your own case, I would alarm and alert your sister about not bossing me around, since I am adult and I am capable of making my own decisions - right or wrong, correct or mistaken ones.
I would feel terrible if I lost my mother and if I knew I was not by her side in the times when she needed me the most. That is far much deeper pain and tragedy that would follow me, as it would be my own decision - to ignore her. While trauma from unresolved past is something I have no choice or control over, rather than seeking help with trauma, Complex trauma and guidelines from community how to deal with ongoing pain inside.
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"She manipulated me several times into thinking my friends were bad and I went against them and destroyed one of my most closest friends who was my truest friend. "
Yeah, Tennessee Williams said: "Friends are God's way of apologizing to us for our families".
You got to understand most of us will judge you because we had "normal" biological mothers and we care the world for them. I do understand where you are coming from, because you are describing my grand-mother.
No one can understand narcissists unless they experienced living with them entire life, all the mind games and the depth of pathology they project&produce onto others.
They do not understand that they will be 80y/o one day, and the connections with family and friendships will help them especially when they are old.
But nevertheless, if you see her as someone who was traumatized and abused herself, it will give you new perspective. You can show up as better person and go beyond the trauma that we were bondaged/bandaged and hypnotized into. You can show up as normal and healthy individual if you can step beyond and show you care someone who was victim of severe parental abuse herself.
I am not talking about forgetting her actions or ignoring it.
If you do not express your humanness, you are letting her define you and she will have power over you. In the eyes of bystanders, you will be the one who is cold and abusive. What does that mean? If you are unable to face her face2face, perhaps you can help her financially? Or you could visit her and see her once in a while and see how the conversation will evolve once you see her as someone who went through childhood abuse herself and unlike you, she is locked in loop of mental disorder and resentment.
For you see, you have friends.
Some people like me never came to the point to make friends and have friendships, we were traumatized so much, that we decided to avoid people in general. So, perhaps, she was not so bad and so severe to the point to destroy your life completely?
Trauma can make us better people, as adults we can make rational, objective decisions, not based on our own triggers and flashbacks from childhood.
As mother Theresa said, it was never about them (people who hurt you) anyway. They are not important. Rather it is about you, you being stronger and healthier, the one who cares.
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"As for my sister I wished she could have stated her concerns differently"
She never will. We can't expect to change other person, that's not reasonable nor possible. The problem is the way we respond to rude people. We must be extra careful not to be rude ourselves, because we are no different than difficult people. Sometimes we can't be calm because rude people trigger past trauma inside us. So we are the ones who are emotionally thrown off balance by rude people. We need to learn to emotionally regulate ourselves and deal with rude people in correct manner- in your case it would be stating objectively that your foster mother rejected your help. And keep repeating it no matter what your sister says. You've done your best, you tried. You are not the problem.
"Now my adopted mother thinks that my brother and I don't care"
Because she sets up the stage. She rejected you, she pushed you away, she did not welcome you. Of course she will think this, narcissist prolong victim mentality and blame everyone around them. That is their modus operandi.
You have the truth and your defense - you tried to get into contact, she rejected your help repeatedly.
Problem is when narcissists throw us off balance, if we lose our temper - we look as aggressive ones, as snobs, as someone how is cold and we appear as abusers. This is why is crucial to learn about what triggers us and to emotionally regulate ourselves when someone push our buttons. If someone read your very first comment here in comment section, outsider would think that you are snob and very cold and abusive person for not helping your foster mother and for not responding to pleas of your younger sister.
And if we talk to you, we find out later that beneath sister's rudeness lies her manipulation.
In the end, rude people are not issue. This is why in official psychiatry we will never read about toxic people and healing the other people around us. We are important, how we deal with rude people. If we over-react, we are the problem since it indicated we did not learn how to be functional, how to self sooth and deal with traumas in our lives.
---
A lot of commentators are talking about ineffective techniques - such as 'silence' or 'laugh it off' or 'being more rude and sarcastic'. This works for people who are rude once in a blue moon.
We are talking here about rude people who are always rude. It is their habit to be rude.
What I have found out is this technique: alarm and alert. You personalize alarm and alert to your identity, situation and the other person, how you will perform this technique. Extreme situations require you to be extreme. Most situation you can do it intuitively and by life experience or thanks to advice from such video presented here.
They (rude people) need to know how they come off to you and people around them. They need to know the reason why you will cut off communication with them in the future if the continue acting irrationally. If your job, security, home depend on such sociopaths, you must not aggravate them more. In such case, it is best to make long term plans of escape.
Alarm and alert means you can do it in kind way. You can and must be authentic. To shut up is psychologically very harmful for you, you block energy inside you, sets you up for illness in long term. Check out Zoroastrianism - it is in their religion to be truthful and authentic. Shakespeare said - 'Be just, and fear not'. If you are a good person, if you have no ill intentions, if you never harm anyone, if you have no intention to harm anyone, there is only misunderstanding or accident that may harm another person who is rude to you.
Example of alarm and alert: "If I am not yelling at you, why are you screaming at me, it is annoying, you are making panic and negative atmosphere here and make things worse."
For people who are feeling especially hurt, for people who feel the pain that won't come off (most people who actually open watch and listen to videos like this one), please try to look Complex Trauma information and see if it resonate with you. You may have hidden wounds from childhood, and rude people are triggers for this painful response to rude people. Most people have no idea they have PTSD from childhood, attached to their back like Sisyphus with his rock.
If so, you may check my ideas and information I gathered about it:
https://77ranko.blogspot.com/2021/03/managing-social-anxiety-and-toxic-shame.html
Rudeness is not superficial problem and it is far more reaching, deep and serious issue both in society and for individual than it appears on the surface.
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31-may-2021
I never thought about it, self esteem being connected solely to social situations and divide it from everything else. To me, I see everything as social situation and thus low self esteem in everything - even at - gym, work, procuring supplies for surface things - everything is connected with people on the other side or in vicinity, enough to feel uncomfortable and tense and under spot light. Even in my room, isolated by others is time away from people and expectancy when I will have to go out there in uncertainty and non safety. I guess that is severe social anxiety all about (based on complex trauma) vs mere shyness or mild social anxiety.
Also, due to social fear I am unable to see 5% people as trolls. To me, if someone is rude, critical, they seem like 98% of general public, as judges and as authority, simply because they express and describe my faults. I do this automatically in my head and it's hard to come at being at peace and not let those 5% do so much self esteem damage inside me.
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Therapy is hard for social anxiety sufferers either due to low (none ) income and/or fear of exposure to unknown person.
I found however that social anxiety for me is under umbrella of much larger issue - Complex Trauma.
Did anyone notice the pattern - it is about expecting what other people might expect from us that we should be, and feel pressure to comply to imaginary standard of what is expected of us? For example, not to come off as cowards. Or pressure to do everything perfectly to the point we are paralyzed? And it all goes automatically, without us being aware of incredible imaginary weigh of how we suppose to be out there? And to make things worse, someone critical, rude or loud comes along and they confirm our fears and we double up our pressure to perform without errors or evoking judgements from others to the point we run away and avoid social situations?
Perhaps if we become aware of this social pressure that we create inside, might help us to ease and be more authentic and non perfect.
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"You think narcissist smooth peaceful, they are not – they tend to be irritable, impatient and agitated."
Yeah, I noticed they tend to mock others to be snowflakes, overly sensitive. But I found out beneath it all, person who accuses others of being snowflake, they are extremely sensitive themselves, but they justify their own sensitivity as something "normal", but they are not, they are extremely irritable, obnoxiously impatient and constantly agitated.
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4-june-2021
Someone in comments said "there is no cure for cptsd" and "cptsd is a permanent scar on your soul"
I think panacea doesn't exist, but that is the point, there is no ultimate solution to anything. Our search for ultimate solution is part of trauma - this need to control, that we were programmed by faulty parenting - we were controlled, we were expected to control, that was part of wrong lessons from childhood. The need to change other people is cognitive distortion, mentally unstable programming from our childhood. The solution is therefore - to stop looking for solution, stop looking for control, and focus instead on mending trauma by being aware of limbic brain running our lives. This awareness of limbic brain hijacking helps to ease the pain we feel and start to base our decision as adults rather than wounded children.
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7-june-2021
As you said, we have confidence but we don't know how to express it.
This means, if some of us who choose Fawn response to uncomfortable stressful outgoings (anything associated with unknown people and social settings) this means that small talk, chatting and forcing yourself to talk to strangers leads to drawing narcissists and psychopaths in our lives who just wait to emotionally vampire easy targets such as us, being desperate and alone.
Social anxiety is fear from criticism, learned as complex trauma response being surrounded by narcissists during childhood. We were programmed to people please and search for other people emotions to avoid getting hurt. So, instead of socializing and talking to people, we already know this, we don't know how to protect ourselves, how to recognize manipulators, pick red flags. We need to know how to respond to conflict and how to recognize us over-reacting when triggers and flashbacks transform us into fear based persona. We were programmed to control others. For example, I started to avoid people when I decided to pout and hold grudges against bullies, hoping they would notice me being hurt and thus they would change. Social anxiety is therefore childhood response to adult situation that we stuck with as we grow older.
So learning about complex trauma heals my social anxiety for me since avoidance is part of complex trauma.
I learned being authentic is healthy response to adult situations but it is hard for us to be authentic since we were programmed to external referencing. This is what I try - to stop self-censoring myself. Not as a way to attack someone - I just state facts without resentment in conflict situations. I try to notice that I treat myself as narcissists did to me - being harsh and expecting perfectionism from myself, so this is also area I try to be kinder to myself.
We can't expect having relationship with other people if we do not have relationship with ourselves first. I never told myself that I was stupid, but my inner critic works in form of entity - being depressed, drawing doom scenario upon my mistakes and not taking care of myself when I feel stuck in tunnel vision. Even though it is not explicit self-abuse - it is a form of not taking care of myself and thus it is a form of self-abuse.
As I calm down, I can go away from limbic brain (lizzard brain, fears) towards cortex brain - looking at facts, rather than impulse and looking for thrills.
Another step to heal social anxiety would be re-activating already known contacts of people I already know.
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Ask questions
This is one of the key points of “How to Win Friends and Influence People”
But that (influence people) is at the core of social anxiety. We are afraid of conflict and negative criticism, spotlight effect. If we ask questions therefore we would be in spotlight - so problem is fear of being in spotlight. This is why it is hard for us to asks questions and to chat even though it is common advice for shy people.
Why we are afraid of being in centre of attention? Because we are afraid to be attacked and someone being aggressive, rude to us. So from this perspective, it is natural not to ask question.
Can you see a pattern now?
We realize that social anxiety is part of much larger disorder, hovering above like gigantic UFO mother ship.
During childhood we were ashamed and experienced toxic shame from other people. Asking questions, talking and chatting lead to us being desperate lonely - which attracts narcissists and psychopaths, who parasite over people desperately seeking for companionship. Narcissists, manipulators seek for people who are ready to fawn and people please and seek approval addiction.
This is why actively putting ourselves in social situations doesn't work for people with Complex Trauma. It makes us only more sensitive and easily triggered and our kindness and being quiet when someone cross our boundaries attracts sociopaths.
So instead of asking questions the more beneficial knowledge would be how to deal with conflict and expressing our discontentment. And learning about our triggers.
Then we would learn about concept such as "need to control" and about narcissists who programmed us to be afraid of people. We would learn that we actually learned narcissists traits such as trying to be in control and being codependent. Wanting to control other people. If we control other people we would control their emotions and we could manage them being angry and aggressive towards us. We would realize we try to control other people by avoiding them and being silent and quiet around them. Perhaps they would pick up clues and be kind to us if we are quiet - that's how we think subconsciously. We expect them to read our minds and to be focused on us, as we expected this in childhood, with narcissists parents teaching us during childhood to read their minds so we would please them and not making them angry. Fact is: Controlling other people is cognitive distortion, it is impossible and it is not healthy.
Healthy response would be letting go, accepting, yet in the same time not to self-censor and express our thoughts especially when someone is rude to us. Assertive people speak out without expecting the other person to change or to listen to us. But voicing out ourselves helps and something changes when we speak out, magic happens - but we never do it, we shut up due to our fears. Small chat doesn't help to heal social anxiety, it doesn't make us more confident. It is when we are accused of something unfair - that if we take courage and speak back and defend ourselves - is what counts and what we will notice as positive change. So healing social anxiety for people who shut up - is to voice our opinions. Not to start conversations with anyone. In fact, it would benefit us to start dividing people into normal ones who are worthy of our focus and to recognize and avoid sociopaths who abuse and exploit others.
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What I noticed about social anxiety is this part of 'they cannot stop you' and 'they don't care about anyone else to be honest'. This is my blockage - there are bullies, narcissists, rude people who do stop others, who shame others and mock others. It's people who make fun of you or are aggressive when you make a mistake.
I agree that action cures all, but it is fear of mocking and attack that stops me from taking action. This is what I work on, I learned that pattern interruption for this irrational fear comes to managing triggers. To tell myself I am not good yet doesn't help to stop catastrophizing. Complex Trauma information helps me a lot to interrupt the pattern.
Same to as breathing - it doesn't help me to sooth anxiety, it makes it worse since I am now more prone to hear fear voices. What helps me instead are videos like this one - to know what is going on. To shine a light in a dark room, walking in dark room and being blocked by objects that I stumbled before.
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8.6.2021
It is hard to realize that we are hard on ourselves, just as our dysfunctional parents were onto us. It is hard to realize we are perfectionist, as if others are super humans and we must reach high levels in anything before going out there in the world. And other people are below decent level - yet I expect out of myself to be super perfect.
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Panic attacks unmanaged influence our personality without us being aware of it.
There are actually 4 responses - Fight, Flight, Freeze and Fawn. 4F.
Now, Fawn is very interesting for me - since it spawns codependency, being pushover, people pleasing, approval addiction to deal with panic. It also make me external referencing - being emotional hostage - if someone is angry that it is my fault, I must fix it, I must shut up & self censor myself. It automatically means that other person (their temper tantrum) is sign they are superior (just them being loud, rude and perhaps violent), this it also spawns inferiority complex. Now imagine what narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths do once they realize they can easily hypnotize easy targets just by yelling and cursing others into submission.
Panic attacks deserve closer look, considering link to our thoughts and perceptions.
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14.6.2021
I watched this video in January 2020, and I've made screenshot of this quote that I stumbled upon yesterday as it projected on photo gallery at my Lenovo tablet:
"A growing body of research has revealed that labelling an emotion (ie putting one's feelings into words) helps to regulate affect downwards. Thus, when one sees an angry face and attaches to it the word angry, there is a affect labelling thus go beyond whatever actual insight are gained by knowing what one feels, because the act of labelling itself actually decreases arousal." LESLIE GREENBERG
Now, in between time I discovered that beneath my social anxiety and avoidance (or in short being coward around people) lies the inability to process emotions, being numb - as being numb does not mean inability to feel emotions, it also means being convinced I feel certain things which are not in reality the way as I see them. (offtopic: Which means the reality is outside of my mind, I am not creator of Universe and as Rene Descartes said, the outside reality is not illusion, it is separated from myself, while my interpretations are illusions that I create and seem like I am governing and it seems to me on subconscious level that I subjugate the outside reality).
Plato dismissing emotions, I guess this is connected to stoicism. While being noble and somewhat functional to do day-to-day chores, the same way as modern psychotherapy is telling panic attack sufferers to expose themselves and act and be active - being stoic is actually a part of thinking error system that Freud explored - he called it dismissing. It is error because stoicism dismiss the processing of emotions - and when we can't process emotions we build our trauma and in the long run our cognitive distortions. We keep the wound open and we are keep bleeding. As explained in this video, suppressing, pretending there are no anxiety or even accepting it without doing anything about the cause where it springs from, would cause physical illness as well. There is funny meme what would be like if psychological trauma were physical - and there are cartoon of person having arm cut off, while by-stander is explaining to the victim, they should think positively in order to be calm, as the final solution to person's problem.
I love depicting maladaptive emotions as "little devils". It is a snake, a virus, a black entity of evil described in Zoroastrianism, as being in our lives, and our task is to search it, recognize it, being aware that it exists in order to produce good life once we identify it and remove it from our thoughts, words and deeds. I guess Plato and stoicism decided to run anti-virus program by eliminating the plateau basic program where thoughts resides, but not realizing the virus can get be pre-booted as well and thus still cause damage. Which is the central theme here - being able to be aware of virus, being able to define emotions correctly and objectively.
Which all leads to 2D meeting 3D reality in "Flatland" (1884), Novella by Edwin Abbott Abbott. People with anxiety tend to lump all objects, events and people in one single label: dangerous. Even if something new and strange appearances are not dangerous at all. Outside triggers might be annoying, irritating, strange, complex, boring or different, but anxiety sufferers label it as dangerous. Just like in novella, we over-react as stress response, automatically. Some people mock. Some people shame anything that is new and different than them. This is wrong learned response. As humans, we have 3 types of brains inside, our cortex is logic and if we are overwhelmed and if we over-react we do not operate from logic. And we do not do that because out limbic brain is running the show. This can be stopped by curing our enthusiasm, and as explained in this video, by labeling emotions. Instead of Aristotelian approach of quick label, we introduce fuzzy logic and dualism. For any belief and perception, once it is not formed as fact, there is dualism - which means without facts, objectivity, without light, the subject will appear dualistic, similar to quantum physic particles. Only when we observe the subject, reality collapses and we have pure fact. This is what labeling emotions does. Instead of being in dark, we light the dark room in our mind. We are not aware we need to light the room. No one told us. We are being instructed and being told by media to be quick, to jump, to hurry and not waste time on emotions. Politicians, narcissists, manipulators, dictatorships, religious cults and army might use this "no time to think, process and discuss, take all sides in consideration" as a way to brainwash unexpected subjects. We get hypnotized, just like censorship in USSR versus democracy and free media in the West.
To deal with trauma would be to collect all information about emotions. To deal with life struggles would be to collect all information available, which in computer age this make it super easy and convenient. That would explain why toxic people, evil and corrupt lying politicians like Trump, Netanyahu, Lukashenko or Putin are losing their influence in modern age, and why such dictators would ban Twitter, Facebook and social media, and control the freedom of expression, freedom of thoughts. People begin to realize manipulators use toxic shame, mocking and sarcasm to control masses without violence, money or any observable spectacle employed in the past.
Which leads to the point of this video - courage as energy that is missing in equation. We have either imagined danger or real life manipulators - both serving agenda of fear, subordination and keeping silent and isolated. Courage make people who are isolated and afraid to start to question whether this state is normal and there might be better way to live life.
Perhaps fears are nothing else but gates to another level, the test we fail to take, prepare or pass - until we are ready. Until the pass, we will be stuck in Groundhog Day, repeating the same mistake, meeting the same abusers and situations that come in different shape but with the same theme.
Similar to the movie quote:
"Fear is like a giant fog. It sits on your brain and blocks everything. Real feelings, true happiness, real joy. They can't get through that fog. But you lift it, you're in for the ride of your life."
Defending Your Life (1991)
It all comes down to find courage. We can force ourselves to face, expose and explore things we are afraid, but without courage, or more correctly, without the skill if courage, we won't pass the test. It is like you can confront someone, yell and scream at them, but if there is some explanation inside you and you are afraid to voice it out of your mind and you self-censor - you do not have courage. You might overcompensate by physical force and being brute, but still it is not courageous if you self- censor and if you are not authentic. If I have desire to hike, to be in nature, to jog, to sit in a cafe on sunny day, but I do not do it because I have social anxiety, than courage is the only energy boost. I might have antidote in form of cognitive knowledge about trauma, complex trauma, psychology - but without courage analysis -paralysis will run the show instead. As it was stated in this video:
"As our thoughts alone will rarely free us from an anxiety disorder, or phobia, or other forms of maladaptive emotions, many people give up on this approach and instead turn to emotional suppression for relief."
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What do you recommend doing concretely? I know i should forgive people, and sometimes when i am at peace i can do that, but other times i feel dissatisfied with my circumstances and in my thoughts i blame my parents (for example) again and i notice, that i still have this resentment. How do i get rid of it permanently?
Well I guess by being aware you have resentment, that is a huge step itself. Because now you know that resentment is virus, so it is toxic and it creates toxic results by your decisions and in our minds as well. Thus it is not appealing anymore to us. This knowledge itself will help you to pay attention when you try to decide to do something based on your resentment. Before, we would not be aware and it would lead us automatically, it would feel good to consider revenge, to contemplate attack or to over-react based on our resentment. This knowledge breaks the hypnosis even though you may not notice it at first in your everyday situation.
I think what you are talking here when you say that you still feel resentment is something that is not mentioned alongside of social anxiety videos or books. In my case I discovered that social anxiety and avoidance are the result of trauma, negative childhood experience - both bullying and narcissistic abuse from parent and environment (grandmother and rude local people).
For some reason, trauma is never mentioned in social anxiety/avoidance books, yet in the same time paradoxically all trauma and PTSD information include avoidance and social withdrawal as its symptom.
So perhaps if you have resentment towards your parents, coupled with social anxiety and avoidance, you might check information on Complex Trauma (C-PTSD) and see if you find some knowledge that will help you take some concrete steps that correspond to your situation. Because if I tell you for example to leave and go away - you might not have financial or emotional support or plan for such action so it would not be wise and applicable to you. And you are the only one who knows what makes you happy and what are your individual goals and plans for your life.
Social anxiety means we have wound from childhood. Trauma means we have problem with processing emotions. This means we are unaware of emotions. We do not know how to deal with social issues, for example with conflicts. I guess if we feel dissatisfied, we are unable to objectively step outside of ourselves and label emotions that are beneath feeling overwhelmed. This also means we learned that if we feel crappy that it automatically means we are unworthy. So concrete step would be to start paying attention to our emotions and labeling them so that we know our emotional state.
Check this:
"How to Stop Being a Coward" by Academy of Ideas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgEKmCteZJQ
"Emotional labelling entails noticing the presence of an emotion, and instead of arguing against it or trying to suppress it, we accept it and internally label it. We say to ourselves: "I am feeling anxious"
You tube: Academy of Ideas, How to stop being coward"
"A growing body of research has revealed that labelling an emotion, putting one's feelings into words, helps to regulate affect, decrease response in the amygdala." Leslie Greenberg
If we grew up with constant criticism and nagging and complaining, we might now have inferiority complex, PureOCD (intrusive thoughts) and low self worth. Complex Trauma information helped me to replace feelings of resentment with concrete information and concepts that explain why I have resentment, why and when I get triggered.
For example, while I go shopping I would feel annoyed and irritated by people who are in hurry, so I would start to be in hurry myself. Now I am aware that I can go slowly and take my time, I do not have to rush like others. The same thing while I drive. I would think I must drive fast as soon as someone was tailgating me. Now I simply drive within limits, makes me feel much more better and it removes the pressure that I would take on automatically from others.
Complex Trauma information is similar to quantum physics, it is rabbit hole that goes deep and deeper.
In short time I've learned that there is Emotional Dysregulation and Emotional hijacking - this means we feel trigger, grudge, annoyance by other people due to our brain, and it is automatic. To me in everyday situation I do not experience it as surge of stress hormones, dysregulation nor hijacking, it feels like normal day that is somewhat bad due to fear or anxiety, and I am not aware my (limbic) brain is producing negative thoughts and negative emotions due to these phenomena. This means it is hard to let go of resentment when triggered and it feels like it will last forever, that I cannot let go of resentment. While in fact it is temporary and I can hold or stop completely making long term decisions based on my resentment. When we are calmed down, cortex part of brain is running our consciousness but we are not aware of that switch. To us, it all appears the same and consequently we might think that something like resentment will last forever and we will never get rid of it. That is why as I said in sulking attitude we cannot come up with objective, rational solutions. Our cortex brain is not operating when we are sulking. We can activate our cortex brain by calming ourselves down and nurturing our triggers and emotions instead of feeling disgusted by them and rejecting them. Many advice on internet suggest breathing techniques to calm down - but for me personally only made me more anxious since intrusive thoughts would be louder once I am quiet inside. For me, I discovered that knowledge and education makes me extremely calmed down, when I know what I am dealing with. Similar to turning on light in dark room, where I would bump onto objects before in the dark and hurting my knee. I also find out that analysis produce paralysis so action is also crucial component. Today I discovered thanks to that Academy You tube channel yet another missing component - courage. It means that I do not wait to take action until I feel perfect or confident.
External referencing concept means since we have no self worth, we seek worth from other people. So if we feel resentment toward our parents or anyone else, we are actually putting power in their hands and our happiness and good feeling depends on other people. I never knew this concept, to me it seemed like it is normal that other people are better, superior and valid, especially if they are loud, angry and bossy. I thought it is normal for me to shut up and not be authentic and not to speak up because other people are hating me. That was because I was focused on other people (locus of control). This also made me feel resentment because there were situations where I was accused unfairly and falsely but I would not defend myself. I would not speak up, in order not to rock the boat. Concrete step in that case for me was to realize other people are not hating me. And that I take courage and speak up, not to self censor myself. If I am not corrupt, if I do not lie, if I do not wish harm to anyone, there is not one single reason why I would not be allowed to talk my opinion, and talk back and argue with people.
There are other concepts that I keep discovering and I am putting them on my channel.
I guess it would help you to know your hidden grudge, but if you are unable to seek it, beneath all resentment is our need to control other people. Other people cannot be controlled, it is cognitive distortion to think we can. This can help us feel more free to let go of resentment.
Piaget said that we learn how to solve difficult task, we only need to be instructed in the right direction but the job is on us, we are the ones who need to solve our problems. We can learn concepts, definitions, just like when learning computer programming, but we are the ones that will solve programming puzzles based on our knowledge and experience because each program is unique. Someone telling you to make a concrete step might not be applicable for your program.
For example, with social anxiety we may receive the concrete step - advice to chat with random folks in order to get rid of social anxiety - but as you see, beneath social anxiety there is actually complex issue of forgiving people and being unwittingly triggered by some situations.
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(16.6.2021)
Social Anxiety is being afraid of criticism. General opinion do not frighten us, it is aggressive rude reaction from others. Then we avoid everyone to cope with anxiety and possible unkind reaction from others (nagging, criticism, cursing, yelling, temper tantrums).
Try this quick fix: Criticism happens only when we make mistake, or if our momentary action cause distress in someone and they express their grievance to us. With this fact in our mind, we can force ourselves to go outside and be active as much as we can - since our fears will happen at particular given moment, not all the time, as it appears in our minds. In our mind it appears as people are judging us all the time and we will be judged all the time 24/7, which is unrealistic.
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If a barista copped an attitude with me, I would just walk out, leave the drink on the counter, and never patronize that coffee shop anymore.
But..
what to do when you get that treatment at your job? Quit it every time someone is assh*le?
What to do if 80% of cashier personnel, bus drivers, public personnel is rude? Do you isolate and do not go outside? I tried it from 1989 and the next 30years...it doesn't help, it creates intrusive thoughts.
What to do when you go to Excel software course you wish to finish and your teacher is cursing you ever time for not knowing something? Do you give up on further education?
What to do when you learn how to drive and your instructor is yelling and cursing and fear mongering you for every single minuscule mistake - as if you are suppose to be Schumacher? And then you spend 20 years not driving due to driving phobia :D
What if your in your grammar school you would be beaten up by teachers for simple mistakes? You cannot choose not being in school and without basic school, you're doomed.
What if you were beaten up in kindergarten randomly simply because nanny owed money to your parents?
What if you live in poor corrupt country like Croatia and you lived in environment like that, where people in majority have such low mental hygiene and the mix up being rude with being masculine /confident / strong, and people expect you to be perfect, to do any task for the first time as if you are doing it for 20plus years, and then belittle you if you are perfect.
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sounds like you are still kinda triggered! : ) Why "bark back" or be sarcastic? The barista's attitude is HIS problem; I ain't gonna make it mine.
How about "This isn't my drink. My order was a _____. Thanks." Short, sweet, gets you what you paid for, doesn't add to the bad energy in the room
I love your comment.
"The barista's attitude is HIS problem; I ain't gonna make it mine"
This is my central problem with my mind. When someone is rude, especially in outside situation (outside of comfort zone) - I first get flooded with tsunami of physical symptoms (racing heart, disgust in my gut, trembling)
and then I get flooded with automatic negative thoughts, feelings of danger..
and lately (last 20+ years) I would also get flood of toxic shame - that I am invalid, incapable and pathetic --- just for being in such situation where someone is expressing rudeness and anger.
I learned only a couple of months ago these feelings are the result of Complex Trauma. I was convinced I had extreme case of Social Anxiety and Avoidance for decades - getting me nowhere and making outside world and people confusing as hell.
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(18.6.2021)
I guess when someone in the present time is screaming at me and yelling at me - and in response I take any such screaming act from other person as my personal command, as a proof of superiority over me, and so I perceive them as competent based only on their screaming, and so I take their words as ultimate command and order - that in present time, whenever someone is behaving like hysteric, I automatically (or even if I witness it from afar or in media) I fawn, shut up, self-censor and I immediately consider myself as inferior and I truly believe every single word they are uttering - that person who is screaming would be my trigger? Also when I make reality my decision to hide, isolate and avoid any possible threat of being yelled at - that would also be the result of trigger.
Because it is not rational response to automatically believe, trust and take for granted and ultimate truth anything that the other loud person is speaking/screaming out to me.
It is not rational response to spend 30+ years locked in a room so that I might not witness yelling and screaming, because it hurts so much and it is painful and devastating for me.
I automatically think the whole world hates me - that would be the result of trigger. Because, the last year I made breakthrough - I learned, some people actually do not hate me. They might be nuts, irritated by something else - but in reality they do not direct their hate to me, even though it might seem it is directed to me.
But what you are saying I guess, is that if someone warns me about something, that someone has some issue to discuss - and they are not hysterical without a reason - and I can talk with them without panic and I can focus and search on the reality, objectivity and truth and shine light on a matter - that would not be trigger. I would do myself damage if I explained myself that I am being triggered and thus I might dismiss, minimize that person and not resolve the matter - based on my belief that this is also trigger - while in reality I would not be threatened.
Whoa,
That makes sense: that before I label something as trigger, that I pay attention to what I feel. Maybe in this situation I am not under panic and reactivity, it only looks like one. That in a case if I go through internal spiraling and I feel emotional unstable as reaction to someone rude - it is different than when I do not feel that - so I can perhaps talk back to that person (instead of fawn). I do not need to think "Oh, I am being triggered, there is nothing I can do, I fawn always, so I will fawn now again, I will self censor myself, if I feel slight heartbeat, that means I am in full panic and I won't even bother to interact with other person, I won't listen to them, I will go in my mind and try to solve my trigger"... I have to pay attention not to fall in trap thinking that I must consciously repeat the fawn pattern even though in certain situations I have mental strength to respond as adult. That response is over-reaction but I never looked at it from this perspective. I learned that I must deal with over-reactions by not making sudden decisions, and instead to gather as much information as I can before making any (long term) judgments and actions. But I never considered this from your point of view.
You are telling us there are situations where we repeat our limbic reactions as our wrong learned habit, even in situations where we don't feel full blown panic. And so in certain situations we can have power and strength to respond like adults. It might look like we are scared children, but we are not - we can snap out of it - we do not need to repeat actions as if under hypnosis, the same reaction as those we do when under trigger - and thus in certain situation we can behave healthier, better. We just need to pay attention when we can behave like adult and use it. That is valuable information! "Not all the time, to think I am over-reacting because of my trauma"
"If we're actively being harmed we're not being triggered"
Yeah, this is the central issue with me - how do we know we are not dealing with some questionable person and they explain to us - gaslight us - that in their version of reality they are not harming us. They would say they are just warning, not criticizing. What if they tell us they are educating us, they want us to teach us - through belittling, nagging and mocking. What if they yell and scream but they tell us we are snowflakes and everybody screams and yells in this world so it is normal and they tell us we are too sensitive to get insulted by them? There is a half truth to what they are saying and they are abusing it, as any narcissist would. And to make it worse, my fawn reaction and inferiority complex takes their words automatically as absolute & ultimate truth. No matter what they say.
I guess, following the advice from above, it depends how we respond. If we can find strength to see they bullsh*t, we can call them out and explain them without over-reaction, warn them. Trauma would be if I shut up and self censor myself. Trauma would be if I internally want to jump on them and react back to them violently, so I transform these tendencies into people pleasing and being pushover and I never say a word to them - left them without knowing what I feel about their rude actions.
The wrong response would be that I block any natural reaction based on my knowledge that I feel triggers and just for having triggers to convince myself that I must repeat trauma reactions just because I know I always do this response in any other similar situation, so thus I force myself to repeat trauma reaction even though I do not have to in certain situations and so I must realize that in some situations I can respond better, as adult.
Yeah , when someone accused me in the past for something false, unfair - I would shut up. And after I learned that I must not self-censor myself, now with C-PTSD information I might fall into trap thinking that I feel triggers - the thinking trap would be that I give up as soon as I feel any uncomfortable physical symptom. The error would be me consciously choosing my usual fawn response even though I have capacity to defend myself and act as grown up. The error would be thinking I must follow the pattern and not looking inside me whether I do not feel the automatic need to ruminate, obsess, hide. What you are saying that by habit we do not do this internal check up. We might be self-sabotaging ourselves because in certain situations we have capacity to break the cycle that was unbreakable in other situations. That we generalize all situations, and we give up too soon. We do not check ourselves, we just go along with our trauma programming.
"If someone is doing something that is hurting us, that is harming us, that's attacking us. We're not experiencing trigger. We're experiencing rational response to being harmed"
So this brings us to our basic issue - we do not know what is rational response. We are being told either by our fears or by narcissists that our natural rational response is wrong. We have been gaslighted that we are over-sensitive when someone is manipulating us and ashaming us with toxic shame into submission and manipulation. We do not know how to act and react in situations when someone is criticizing us. We might learn techniques how to deal with difficult people (gray rock, broken record...) but we never learned how to emotionally deal with difficult people. So we either explain ourselves - that since we fawn, that is the best reaction anyways. Or we are explained by toxic people around us - since we are codependent, it is best that we listen to them and their interpretations and their decisions as ultimate guidelines.
I guess this falls in the responsive states you mentioned at the end of video?
"Responsive states come from attunement to self, an alignment with one's value voice and vision so that we can determine how we want to respond to a person place or thing that's going on that is going to be something we want to live with."
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I just got realization that my fears that trigger fawn response - is actually response to people who were people pleasing before, but now they are stuck at ultra independence spectrum and they yell, scream. In my mind people who are yelling are competent, normal, valid and royalist on a throne. This sheds new light to start devaluing them. I knew people who scare me so much are unstable mentally, but I would not believe it for real. I would still deep inside me trust them as better and competent (!?). Logically I know it is untrue, but inside I would still see myself as incompetent idiot, and loud people as my commanders.
This representation - as them being actors and they are actually pathetic, incompetent, miserable just like me - but they are only on the other side of pendulum so they wear a mask and appear better, is the eye opening.
And that explains when in very rare moments when I did spoke back and stand up for myself - I noticed the reaction in aggressive person that I talked to, they would react to my words as if having sudden electric shock. Now I understand why they have it. They are cowards really, they only act as mighty Oz, but they are frail, hiding behind the curtain. I need to remind myself of this whenever I meet someone rude. I always see loud, annoying people as Pied Pipers and I must fawn to them automatically, without thinking about it at all. I don't have to, they are not saviors. It must be mixed with indifference as you said, but my automatic fawn reaction requires me to make effort to devalue people who are triggering me in order to get to the middle of pendulum and to calm myself down.
"In indifference or interdependence no one is wrong they're just acceptance , both you and them are valid. What works for you is just as valid as they are."
What if the other person is disorder or has disorder and thus creates the chaos?
"It allows us safer to show ourselves as we are. Who we are. What we want to be and who we want to be in our world."
That for codependents is possible only through employing the missing components: courage, action and aggressiveness. We were either programmed to delete those from our system or we self-sabotaged ourselves, we pruned ourselves too severely, so the buds of forcefulness never came out. I understand that courage is not being superman, yet to be afraid and still in the same time to face our fears nevertheless.
"Aggressive at times- we are learning to flex our muscle. Our job is to cue and go you know I don't have to see them as enemy."
And we have to know when we are rude ourselves, because unintentionally we might cause damage to other codependents who are not at this stage as we are. This is where the hedgehog's dilemma/porcupine dilemma comes in. How to respond in the right moment, at the right time with the right intensity at the right target.
"I don't have to make them wrong. But I don't have to see myself as wrong either."
Wouldn't that be fawning response upgraded? What I am saying, the problem are toxic people who are aggressive towards us. They are not in the middle of pendulum. They nag, criticize, blow up our mistakes, they interpret as personal attack something we did unwittingly. They do not consider feelings of others, no empathy from them, only parasitic actions from them. We would like to normalize their psychotic behavior as something different and okay - but that would not stop them hurting us. They would interpret our decision to accept them and our indifference as our weakness and they would attack us even more.
I am talking about the other person who is unreasonable and reacts very difficult, unkind and violent to our saying no. They might employ techniques as yelling, screaming, cursing, that triggers us to panic and cause us throw off balance - that we shut up and allow them to abuse and exploit us. In situations where we financially depend on such person as adult, or as kids when our survival depended on our fawn reaction, the only reasonable reaction to such abnormal setting is to fawn.
I guess what you are saying, for people who are trapped under situation with people who belittle them - that we accept ourselves as normal. That we do not attack ourselves to be weak, incompetent. That we understand we are being told things, defined by people who are mentally ill. And that we plan our escape route. This perspective would allow us not to run back to the abuser after we might feel slightly uncomfortable outside of our abusive comfort zone. That if there is no immediate danger out there, that we stay at the place of freedom. That we do not allow our fears to guide us back to abusers.
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19.6.2021
Simultaneously I was taking quotes from Jung "Inner Shadow" for my quotes videos, and it resonates with Sarah J. Robinson's interview and her book;
"Man is, on the whole, less good than he imagines himself or wants to be."
CARL JUNG
I see Sarah's book from this perspective:
We put too much pressure on ourselves, we are only human. We have our limits and goals, but if we subordinate these to other people, thinking what is good for others, we are making self damage, because some people exploit our goodness into their advantage. And then we feel drained and exploited.
This means, we can allow ourselves to be "rude" or "unkind" in certain situations when someone is pressuring or ashaming us to obey their will and their goals that do not match our own. Our goal is God, not pleasing other people, especially toxic ones, we might people please everyone just to show ourselves to everyone as being "good" in everyone's eyes.
Some people over-respond, as Bobby said - but on the other side of spectrum, some people under-respond, those who want to make peace and be good, and be peaceful with everyone, and yet still feel anxiety, pressure and weight on their shoulder. I think if we under-respond, we need in certain situations allow ourselves to lift up the "goodness" bar a little higher up and allow ourselves to protect our mental health by reacting and warning other people who harm us.
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98% of fears mentioned all have the same pattern:
"person that i am, putting myself out there, having my parents stop supporting me, afraid of not beeing good if we kiss, Fear of being looked down, humiliated, not feeling good enough, don't apply for a job, putting myself out there, Loosing control of my mind, I won’t be able to have that strong sense of self, seing that im nervus , fear of not being enough, not being able to achieve any success, fear of losing focus, Fear of not being good, enough nor smart enough..."
The pattern is the fear of incompetence.
As children we had instilled toxic shame inside us and it spread around our system like a virus. Whenever we are afraid - when we feel emotions we cannot process - we simply say to ourself: I feel incompetent. Is it true? It is not, so I can let it go and focus on my task.
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Problem is when our benefit system is infected with virus of narcissist abuse, programming. Then our benefit system might be plagued by toxic shame. Inside toxic shame would be fear of incompetence. And then this drives us into chaos - people pleasing, being pushover --->> not having boundaries. And all the time this fear of incompetence is unconscious, we do not know it drives us into forfeiting our boundaries, as if hypnotized, we are unaware.
Toxic shame makes us believe that we are threatened and our ego defense is our boundary. It thwarts our reality and definitions.
It mash reality and we see relationship differently than outsiders would. And then narcissists love easy targets like us to exploit, parasite upon and they know how to manipulate our toxic shame in their advantage. Not only people in our close proximity, everyone we encounter. Our definition of boundary being blurred, we look outside, externally to define boundaries for us - because deep down we feel incompetent, a wound from childhood that is still bleeding and we do not know how to heal it because we do not know it is this feeling of incompetence defining us who we are, with "accomplices" outside ourselves in form of toxic people, narcissists.
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(20.6.2021)
Ok, good advice - being authentic is the way.
But... what you do when you have financial problems and your job depends on a person who is deciding your employment - and that person is mentally ill? Then in order to please that person you must be acrobat in order to get paycheck. Acrobat including being passive aggressive, where this mentally ill person is forcing you to not being authentic because they can't stand the truth.
Or better example, what if you were raised by narcissists and went through narcissist abuse where you were taught that being passive aggressive is the only way to deal with uncomfortable situations?
I guess in certain situations you must be passive aggressive. I would say there is no right or wrong, if we think we must behave all the time perfectly - we would bring toxic shame in our minds. The message from this video in this case would be - once you are free from the chains, try to get rid of being passive aggressive, it is dysfunctional and it damages both mental health and relationships. It is ok if you encounter it in other people or in you, just try to be as much as authentic as objective circumstances allow you to do so - both limited by your own mind (trauma from past, wrong learned responses) or by exterior - living in corrupt country where you just can't hop on and off from jobs.
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(21.6.2021)
In 2000 I've discovered about avoidant PD. It made sense for me since I knew I had extreme social anxiety. Soon enough I started to work so I thought that I was "cured" simply by being in social situations at my job, by being exposed to people - I was forced not to avoid people due to my job - so I thought this is the cure for AvPD.
But nevertheless I was lonely and avoided any deep connection and further meetings, that behavior helped me to ease the uncomfortable symptoms and to calm my disgust when someone would be annoying. But in my mind I thought I was cured of avoidance simply because being among people every working day. I would fawn as response to stressful situation. For avoidant, social anxiety people - our stress from social settings come from other people's reaction that might be negative, criticizing. For example, nagging or complaining about our mistakes or appearance.
The common advice for social anxiety is to expose, that we need to be out there among people and for example that you take off your hat or sunglasses so that you do not hide from people in that way, not to cover yourself. Yet, my avoidance was so bad that I did not wear accessories at all - because I was afraid to be mocked, been in centre of attention or any critical comment about anything personal about me would be scary even to consider. I've done that unconsciously, it was simply normal for me not to draw attention in any way. So, I could say that I have some experience with avoidant PD.
I am not therapist nor I will give you advice, I will tell you my experience in regard to what you said, perhaps you might find something interesting from my experience. I cannot give you advice since we are all different, we have different circumstances and environment. Along with avoidance I also have codependency issues, and that means I want to fix other people, so now, as a part of healing from codependency I try to keep objective as much as I can, hehe. And instead of telling people what they should do, I tell what I did, and what helped me.
You talked about:
'Rejection dysphoria' - As I gathered information online, rejection is normal reaction, it is not actually exclusively connected with avoidance. There is a part in our brain that responds to rejection as if it is physical pain. What I find interesting with avoidance are the definitions. What we define as rejection? I think that differs from person to person, and perhaps that' a clue for our avoidance, too. We miss definitions. Sometimes we read something about avoidance, some advice, but in reality, this person might be talking about something similar - and thus their advice might not work for us. For example, I am not hurt by rejection - if someone do not invite me to some event. In fact, I would feel amazing when they don't, since I do not need to go outside, among people :D Rejection for me, to feel pain from rejection is for example - ignoring, when there is argument, and aggressive person accuse me of something I did not do, and when I want to tell my side, that person simply turn their back and walk away - that hurts because I was ashamed and left to be guilty.
'Treatment' - Many therapist in my area suck. As I understand, not much therapists know the mechanism of Emotional dysregulation, which is the core part of avoidance. Also, social anxiety is less researched. Because it cost money to research it, and it takes years to study observed and laboratory tested human behaviour. Philip Zimbardo said that social anxiety is rising and should be studied back in 1970s because it is connected to larger psychiatry and social issues. The literal quote from him is:
"The level of shyness has gone up dramatically in the last decade. I think shyness is an index of social pathology rather than a pathology of the individual."
Nobody listened to him. However, the new findings are coming in the past 2 years. It will take time to spread to medical community and therapists. So basically we are left to our own.
'Being autistic' - Autistic don't care and they are not aware of others, other people emotions. We fear rejection and we are very aware of other people, we are acutely aware of people's emotions, so therefore that is a sign that we are not authistic, we just appear so to be autistic by one symptom - to be away from people.
'Narissists' - solipsistic. As I understand now, there are various types of narcissists. I always thought that overt ones are the only type - people like Trump or racists, psychopaths who deliberately hurt others. But yeah ,there is also covert types, and as I understand since we avoid, that could be a sign of passive aggression which might fall under narcissism. That was surprising discovery for me, but it made sense logically. It is one more boost to heal our avoidance, since being hurt by other people, we know that narcissism is a bad thing and it hurts people.
'Racist people' - They could be labeled as toxic people. But as I discovered labeling toxic people is toxic. It falls under category "how do you destroy monster without becoming one?" and "What we hate, we become". So judging others would be narcissism. Did you notice that official psychiatry do not use this term "toxic people"? Nor they are ever focused on toxic people in our lives. They are always focused on ourselves. How we interpret anything. That is because our need/desire to change other people is a cognitive distortion. When we avoid people, we twist our mind by not being in deep and meaningful contact with other people, and so we are prone to cognitive distortions such as catastrophizing, and thinking errors like dividing everything in absolute right and absolute wrong categories, without gray areas.
'Relationship' - avoidant people desire relationship but are afraid to have them.
And this is what I find out about intensive search about avoidance in myself. I know this may not apply to you, but who knows maybe you will find some parts that will help you? I have been battling social anxiety since 1989, that are +30 wasted years behind me. So I will risk being irrelevant,
here it goes:
In my case I discovered in March this year that my avoidance was a part of Complex Trauma, C-PTSD. None of therapy or online advice or any book about social anxiety did ever mention trauma. Yet on the other hand, every trauma mentions avoidance, withdrawal and social inhibition as a part of trauma. I thought that for trauma there has to be extreme violence and extreme conditions. Nope - the truth is that everyday, relentless criticism, nagging and undiagnosed & untreated mentally ill parent is enough to develop Complex Trauma.
Narcissistic abuse creates injury in the brain.
https://cptsdfoundation.org/2020/06/22/the-neuroscience-of-narcissism-and-narcissistic-abuse/
Once I discovered Complex Trauma I went deeper in rabbit hole. I discovered it in "real time" as I blogged my feelings and thought:
https://77ranko.blogspot.com/2021/03/managing-social-anxiety-and-toxic-shame.html
https://77ranko.blogspot.com/2021/06/complex-trauma-induce-social-anxiety.html
BTW, I discovered that writing is excellent tool to deal with avoidance and feelings.
With trauma information, I learned that I am unable to define what bothers me in scientific way. I think I am afraid, but this feeling and emotion is hard to describe. Just like you said at your work, after you went to HR - it became mess and no one helped. It is because of this lack of scientific, enlightenment. Trauma means we cannot process emotions. We cannot define them. We think we know our emotions, but we label it through our experience - which is tainted by abuse, so our labeling system is faulty, and we are not aware that we mis-diagnose our emotions. With avoidance, our fears are in the dark and they are not exposed. We are like in a dark room, getting bumped at objects - and we will continue to bump until we turn on the light.
Once I knew trauma was behind my avoidance, it helped me to shine a light in dark areas. Because with avoidant PD information available, information out there on the net are in large part misleading, they are focused on the symptoms, not at the cause. Thus they help for a minute or two, but the anxiety comes back very quickly.
I have learned that I am afraid to be incompetent. Consciously I know I am competent to the degree that allows me to be active participant, but deep beneath I didn't believed it so - so of course I lacked self confidence and self worth, as low self worth is a major component of trauma. The information about avoidance will tell us to work on our self esteem - but that is impossible if deep down you have covert belief and idea that I am inept.
Then I discovered I have a need to be right. That faulty desire programmed in childhood by abuse would also cause me to get triggered and stay in uncomfortable state. Logically I know I do not know everything, but unconsciously I believed that I know everything so I must be reactive to the world that was wrong. This resonates with what you said about relationship, and about racists people at your work - that it is better to be alone. That way I would always be right, I would satisfy deep thwarted need to be right, implanted by narcissistic abuse.
Because "the normal" viewpoint would be - that there are no racist people. There are people who are behaving racist. That means, they grew up in dysfunctional homes that brought them up to be trash as adults. This also means, that they might change, some of them are not stubborn so much. If we believe we are not racists and that we are superior, that is also not healthy. In a way we are then racists ourselves. Jung's inner shadow tells us that what irritates us in other people are actually things we deny in ourselves. What bothers us about other people is part of ourselves that we rejected. Official psychiatry tells us therefore that there is no right or wrong people. We cannot cut people off from our lives if we did not do everything objectively possible to examine and try to work with people in harmony. As avoidants, we do not come to the point where we try to compromise and interact with people. We prune them off, we prune ourselves off too short, so there is no fruit.
Inner shadow by Jung tells us that rejected parts are what we need to integrate in order to be able to be active and functional in life. For example, I feel disgusted by violent and unkind people. They trigger me off to stress and I fawn to them. So I need to accept to be sometimes in certain situations unkind and violent myself. Not all the way, but at least parts of unkindness and violence that will allow me to protect myself in dangerous situations. Without this protection, I am left to avoid people and live in a prison, to be locked in my room for the rest of my life, to be avoidant.
I discovered that in 1989 when I decided to avoid everyone and stay safe in my room, that I did that because I was pouting at bullies. I thought as child that my grudge will be seen by them, and thus they will realize they have hurted me so much, that their yelling, screaming, attacking and mocking caused me to feel so much pain, and when I stay in my room, then they will magically realize and change themselves and suddenly be better people. Later I forgot this decision but I kept in subconsciously. I expected that other people will change if I avoid them. That they will be kind if I shut up. That they won't be aggressive if I retreat and subordinate. That they will show empathy and consideration if I fawn to them, people please them and being pushover. I saw this pouting behavior in my narcissistic surroundings (dad, grandma, nephews, town's folks, kids that I played with, the society).
Now I know other people do not hate me. Before I would be convinced that other people hate me, so I must avoid them, I must avoid confrontation and being authentic, speak my mind. As kid I would be punished if I expressed my needs and my opinions, I would be beaten up in kindergarten, at school, at home, I would be mocked as sissy by kids who I considered my school pals. So I learned to shut up, to self-censor and that all people are scary and they automatically can't stand me, and they hate me. This belief was also unconscious, and once I become aware of it, it was easier to dismiss it as fantasy.
Now I know I should not self censor myself and I can talk back, especially if I am accused of something unfair or false. Now I know that if I go beyond my explanation and feel rage and feel the need to show them who is right, that this is my distorted need to be right, coming from inside. So before I would not be able to let go, I would feel hurt, now I can easily let go, since I know this hurt is now defined - it is my need to be right, totally false and a part of thinking errors that I falsely integrated during childhood abuse as response to mentally ill parent and environment.
For me avoidance was adjusting my behaviour when I was outside, that I must do whatever I can not to bring criticism from anyone. Of course the avoidance is natural reaction when I think like that. Official avoidance and social anxiety advice available out there do not address this. They totally dismiss trauma and origins of our avoidance.
As avoidants, we desire relationship, we want friends. But our image of relationship and friendship is distorted. I am prone to fantasy idealization, that means I believe that in social settings everything must go along as in some tv drama. There should be no awkward silences, no slapstick embarrassing situations, no misunderstandings, no errors - but the real life is full of it, it is normal to make social faux pas.
I hope at least some part of this long text might help you or someone else.
Thank you for video message.
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I've learned the hard way that labeling toxic people is contagious. Once I start to label people toxic, I become more angry and I become sensitive and suddenly everyone around me is toxic. That is paradox of toxic people - when you are around them, they spread toxicity, that makes them toxic. Not only them being rude and inconsiderate. It goes much deeper and more dangerous.
For example, narcissistic abuse cause brain injury in kids growing up in dysfunctional homes.
And to make it more complex - what we hate, we become. How to fight a monster without becoming one? We know toxic people are difficult and damaging, so we should not become toxic ourselves.
Jung's Inner shadow tells us that if we reject parts of ourselves, that it means we are making injury to ourselves. Jung said what irritates us in other people is a reflection what we hide inside ourselves. This rejection is self sabotage. For example, for me toxic people are unkind, violent and rude people who accuse others and treat others unfairly. If I reject this behavior, due to complex domino effect, I will become people pleaser, pushover, codependent - because I would miss good parts of evil, that would provide me ability to protect myself against toxic people. I would find myself in situations where my first manager would make fun of myself, and I would laugh back, I would feel embarrassed and ashamed, but I smiled, because I was taught I must be polite and if I talk back to my superior that is toxic.
That is complex - when we have mentality to label rude people, we become rude ourselves. Toxic people are mentally ill. When we reject them, we become mentally ill ourselves.
To divide people in absolute right and absolute wrong is a part of thinking errors, cognitive distortion. Through our resentment, toxic people infect us with toxicity. We may say we ignore them, we may decide to block them - but Universe will keep sending us toxic people to teach us a lesson, they will simply come and appear in some new form.
So we are forced to deal with toxic people in adult, healthy way.
Did anyone notice that official psychiatry do not have Toxic people label? Official mental health information is focused on our perceptions and how we interpret reality. Anti-psychiatry movement in 1960s tried to rebel against such system because the reality is there are toxic, crazy people out there that negatively influence normal and healthy individuals.
But the right solution is that we look inside. If something triggers us - if some person triggers us - this means we have some trauma inside. We are not aware of it. We need to work on ourselves, our thoughts and our perceptions when faced with toxic people.
The truth is that true psychopaths according to statistics - are very rare occurrence.
What is more objective is that probably toxic people in our lives are immature kids trapped in adult bodies, and they are unaware they are toxic. Before cutting them off, the healthy adult thing to do would be to confront them. If we do not do this, we will soon cut all people out of our lives, everyone would irritate us.
People are made to be social, the highest form of mental health is interdependence. People are made to care for each other and build loving, secure relationships.
This means, we are each responsible to be example to others. If someone is toxic, before we cut them off, we should try to talk and reason with them, to see if they will listen. Many people will listen and they are totally unaware they might be toxic. Also, if we react to toxic people, it is a sign that we are toxic ourselves in certain areas. Most probably, it is in area regarding the tolerance. If we get triggered by other people too easily, we have to find why we get triggered.
For example, I learned that I get triggered because I thought, I had hidden thought that all people hate me, all people in the world. They pretend to like me, but deep down they hate me. So I would look and seek for any sign of hate in other people. Pretty soon, all people appear toxic from this kind of perspective. While in reality, people do not hate me at all. Most of them are ego-centric, they do not look at me at all, nor think for a second about me, so my thoughts had errors.
Or I found out that I have hidden need/desire to be competent. Thus is someone criticize me, that person would be toxic to me. Even if they meant no harm or if criticism was constructive. Once I learned my unconscious belief I am incompetent crap, I realized ok - so be it, and suddenly other people do not appear toxic to me anymore.
Or, I found out that I have hidden need to be right. So if someone disagrees with me, I would label that person as toxic. They would label be as over-sensitive and snowflake, while I considered them idiots :D Once I realized I had subconscious belief that I must be right, other people appear now, they seem more real and objective, and less toxic to me.
Hope this will help someone to deal with their triggers from toxic people.
;)
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"The consequences for each would be different"
But again, it is about thinking that is causing our emotions.
"One might have a supportive relationship & inheritated a cushion of money so anxiety less"
And this person is conditioned by society to think if you live in comfortable plaza, if your live in centre of London, than that means you are successful, amazing person and this defines your goals and your happiness. And since your circumstances are exactly like that fantasy idealization, your thinking and beliefs go along with reality and that make you happy and you react with less stress to unfavorable information, being turned down for a job.
"one may be already in debt"
Why this person is in debt in the first place? If you have thoughts that you must buy things to impress other people, it is your thoughts that are problem, not lack of finances. It appears that lack of money is the problem, but your thinking in spending your money on things you do not need, to impress other people is the deeper issue.
We are all societally (not socially but by pressures of society) conditioned to believe we must live in a certain place, home that is too expensive for us in order to appear superior to others - of course we will go in debt. If we think we must drown our sorrow in food or shopping, of course we will be in debt. If we think we must live in expensive part of city instead of village where homes are cheaper, of course we will go in debt - because of our thoughts, our beliefs comply to our unconscious desire to impress other people.
"has much less social support "
External referencing is also cognitive error. We believe we must depend on other people comments to feel good about ourselves. That is also thinking error. Lack of self worth is result of trauma, it is not our fault. With lack of self worth we look for other people to validate us. This is incredible pressure for other people. It is normal to be social and to make friendships and connections, but if we expect to be happy if someone externally push us up, we will soon become people pleasers, addicts for approval, pushovers, codependents. Again, it is our thoughts, our explanations what is the most important in the world that got in mess. And it may not be our fault at all. We might be programmed during development of Complex Trauma to take other people words as the ultimate orders and believe anything someone else says as the only truth.
Rene Descartes said so 500 years ago, "Mind lies to us all the time", back then it was revolutionary discovery, he talked about it at king and queens palaces and people were amazed. Here in 21 century, we still struggle to get out of our ego-centrism. It is not so easy.
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"Start with self kindnes and body work(self soft massage) and learn how to switch off and self soothing (feel safe and happy)"
Many people with cognitive distortions feel unworthy and they feel high anxiety, very uncomfortable symptoms of panic that are not validated.
So if you pretend the issue is not there - it is part of thinking error, it is called denial.
Self sabotage would be pretending there is no elephant in the room. Toxic positivity is self sabotage. It is all part of cognitive distortion - denial and freedom idealization. We believe other people are happy all the time, that being healthy means you never experience pain. That are all cognitive distortions, and we are not aware of it. Our mind will do everything to trick us into comfort zone.
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Besides cognitive distortions, I would also mention ego defense mechanisms.
For example,
Personalization is the greatest stumbling block for me.
It triggers my trauma from the past for being ashamed repeatedly if I did something wrong, even if done for the first time - so it is not humanly reasonable to do it perfectly.
Thinking errors - that I must be competent and perform without errors. Now I can repeat mantra - it is ok to make mistake. No person can perform like robot all the time, it is not humanly possible to hold unrealistic standards. I can choose to devote time energy and focus to the best I can - but there is limit how far can I go.
Also connected with this is the need to be right - I guess it goes along with incompetence since my inferiority complex would overcompensate my self worth in ego defense mechanism. So I would feel attacked if someone exposed my errors, complain and nag - now with the knowledge that I can let go of being right - and without immature ego defense mechanisms, I can employ mature mechanisms of defense - such as humor, or simply being objective - that would calm fears down, so I can put myself in other people shoes and see what they are really saying, instead of perceiving only their anger, negative emotions.
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"they constantly giving me unsolicited advice. "
That is my father. He explained to me that he is educating me by criticism, nagging and constant fault finding. Since this was done in childhood, it goes under narcissistic abuse.
These people are mentally ill. In their minds, they think they are making us a favour, they think they do us service, they think they are helping us. While in reality, they make us to be codependent, pushovers and inept to handle anything in life because soon we internalize their advice as scorn.
Did you try to bluntly saying them in their face? If you are not afraid, tell them so. Perhaps you can sugar coat it - "I understand you mean well, but I will choose to make decision about that."
Of course, they will monitor your every mistake and enjoy any trouble you ran into, to tell you 'I told you so'.
Or did you try to change the subject?
If they continue to advice - perhaps that you ignore it? Even to show that you are ignoring them.
Perhaps to minimize even contact with them?
Or to go to argument and confrontation with them? Analise their babblings? Expose their lack of knowledge? Employ Socratic questioning method?
Yeah, try that last one - just keep asking them details. Soon enough you'll both discover that their advice is meaningless.
:D
Perhaps they are very lonely people, and this is the only way to communicate with you? Maybe you are shy or distant from them (since they disgust you) so they keep conversation going by meddling into your life? Not realizing they create even more distance... In that case, perhaps changing the subject would be more appropriate and babble along with them about small, unimportant, neutral stuff, see if that works.
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(22.6.2021)
Manic episode, you feel like triggered? This is when we lose control. I always choose fawn response, that seem like being coward, and then people label me as such, which triggers me even more into people pleasing and being pushover. I guess you react the opposite from me - you go into fight response, and people react to you to trigger you even more in that direction - to fight with the-
The common pattern is - the other people. Other people are mentally ill, not you. People who have unbalanced mind will lie and accuse others, they are lazy also.
We get triggered due to our upbringing, as kids we did not receive love that "normal" kids receive, and this mess us up.
Mental episode that you mention is this polyvagal theory. You are reacting abnormal as a reaction to abnormal situation and abnormal people. I would start with that, because we take so much toxic shame, so much guilt, and we reinforce low self worth, that only spawns more issues.
I learned we can calm down when we understand what is going on and when we define what is wrong. Until we do that, scary kid that was traumatized in our childhood is running our adult life and trying to lead adult life.
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Yeah, I realized this past week that like I am having hidden thinking errors and we employ defense mechanisms to avoid being exposed ____..what?
My toxic shame is being exposed as being incompetent and being coward. Then people at work who criticize me trigger my stress response - but I was not aware that I was afraid of being exposed as incompetent and coward. And the paradox is that my fawn response only reinforced both these. I choose fawn response as I know that interaction and socialization is normal and healthy, as oppose being isolated and avoidant - as I tried this dysfunctional response for decades.
Your experience is somewhat similar - they accused you for thing you did not do, and they don't even care who's fault it is. And perhaps you engage in fight response, in order not to expose you are feeling afraid or incompetent?
I think this is where we need to look to change our self-sabotaging actions. We we programmed to be ashamed for certain aspects and this toxic shame now controls us and it runs and ruins our lives. As I understand trauma psychology, if we define our toxic shame, we can stop our dysfunctional defenses and calm down. If I know I am coward, any other psychologically painful reaction from me no longer is needed. I can focus on problem itself without going around it and intelectualizing about it, or worse overcompensating it in order to cover up what I am ashamed of, and instead I can talk what bothers me without self-censoring myself, calmly and without withholding the truth.
As kids, we missed these lessons and we learned them wrongly. We never had support that kids need to grow psychologically. We might be pampered in warm homes, but our child psyche was neglected.
Take care, man!
I trust we will get out to the truth and start living better lives soon.
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(23.6.2021)
Pete Walker was great because he described Fawn response, something that was ignored and oblivious from mainstream medical world, and it is so frustrating not to define something that codependents and people pleasers struggle with. We think it is some kind of quirk, totally unrelated to trauma and we must simply snap out of it. But his book about healing was not helpful to me. Body keeps the score also - I did not find practical ways or any direction how to heal. It was all general.
For example, we have low self worth - but those books do not tell you that we have toxic shame thinking errors inside us that are producing the waves of root instructions and orders that we obey. For example, in my case I have deep sense of incompetence - and then I drive my actions to be perfect, and expect non human standards in everything I do - and then I feel ashamed, embarrassed when I make mistake and when I do not reach those standards. Why was that so hard to describe in their books, that these childhood beliefs rooted in trauma and narcissistic abuse - is where we get low self worth?
Or I discovered few days ago I have toxic shame telling me I am coward - and then unconsciously, just like incompetence - I ran my life on over-compensating, hiding and trying to not be exposed. And when someone pick on my insecurities, I feel triggered - and this is why I get triggered.
Why the parts of thinking errors were not mention in the books? That is the way to heal trauma and they did not delivered it. The same thing as Bradshaw's "Healing the toxic shame that binds you" - he mentions the symptoms but totally miss the thinking errors - and his book made me feeling more toxic shame, more anxiety and more fears because it did not help with the psychological wound.
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@Noga s Divone It is that wound, brain injury - we can't control it. We are hyper-alert. Our brain is trying to protect us by rumination or flashbacks. Our brain thinks this way we can figure out how to help ourselves, if we experience it over and over, making it more negative so that we get the worst case scenario to solve in our brain.
This is what she was talking about grounding yourself. That she made noise to her client - so that her client would realize that he or she is safe place now.
So - we can meet our brain the half way. We can consciously 1) learn how to deal with our fear object. For example, my trigger are loud, difficult and obnoxious people - so I write my thoughts how to deal with them, I try to figure out why I am I feeling toxic shame when around them - and it helped - I realized that I had secret, hidden instructions that I obey, thinking errors and beliefs, I believed I am incompetent and that I am coward - which broadcasts wave of shame and desires how to cover it up. Try to look for your own thinking errors. They are called cognitive distortions, and ego defense mechanism.
We might find out we have freedom fantasies, about unrealistic life that we strive - without worries, without problems and then we set ourselves to expect - and then to feel disappointed. So, we need to expect less. We got to normalize things that we unrealistically think should not exist. But we are not Gods, nor judges to correct and change people. We can alert them and assert ourselves, but that is all we can do.
2) or we can consciously go along with our fears by accepting them. Ok, so you re-experience it, then do it. Don't fight it, don't block it. Intrusive thoughts are stronger if you try to get rid of them. It is PureOCD.
Whatever it is, C-PTSD information available will help us, we need to keep learning about it.
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when I get triggered, I tend to see everything negative. Finding faults is something I learned in childhood from my parent.
I have noticed that when I am triggered I cannot get rid of resentment. I have strong toxic shame - for example I see myself as being coward instead of seeing it objectively as fawn response. Then I imagine myself in worst situation, or similar shameful situations from the past, and I prove myself that I am coward, incompetent... and negative is hard to get rid of..
but again and again - it will pass. I will come to the state where either I do not care or I realize that being negative is toxic.
Trauma healing needs patience and time.
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I understand this concept of authenticity and being honest, instead of dysfunctional defensive mode.
But from my perspective, this becomes a way too complex when you are in contact with manipulators and people who are mentally ill, for example taking advantage of you, and-or ashaming you and playing mind tricks, gaslighting, dumping their aggression and then turning their back on you walking away, or throwing you out of office or car in their rage - situations where you cannot talk to them and have honest communication.
Problem starts when due to finances, circumstances of family you cannot leave them, cut the contact. Then you are in a position where they cause psychological damage, as you mention in your video for aggressive people.
With psychological damage, manipulation and degrading us, character assassination - we are in a position where it is very hard, if not impossible - to be assertive. Unfortunately, such situations are much more common in poor and corrupt countries where you are unable to switch jobs easily or do any task important for your needs.
To make thing worse, it becomes almost impossible to have confidence as grounding point, when being raised with narcissistic abuse and developing complex trauma.
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(24.6.2021)
Perhaps I am wrong, but from my perspective it is suppression of a strong emotional response to repeated trauma.
And in my case I am discovering those suppressed emotions.
To my surprise last few days I was blogging my thought and I found out toxic shame was hiding , suppressing these:
1) feeling of inadequacy - I feel inept and if someone expose me, it makes me feel worthless and I fawn. While this incompetence feeling was programmed through repeated criticism and focus on negative from my parent and toxic people in my environment
2) feeling of need to be right - I find out I have plethora of ego defense mechanism, and one is that if I find courage not to fawn, that I want to prove to be right - this is where I have connecting point with anger which is toxic, since it I use it to cover up being exposed as inept - instead of simply own my mistakes and admit fault, that I do not know something. This is also something I was programmed to think as instructed and observed from parent and toxic environment (narcissist grandma, bullies in school, rude random folks whom I need some service, advice or help etc)
3) fawn response in my case has a pattern - it appears in response to situation where someone comes by and orders me to do something, to stop whatever I was doing and I must do what they want - and I am feeling like I do not have right for opinion, due to them being violent, rude, aggressive or in some kind of real or imagined authority. And there is always element of abuser and narcissist, someone difficult - who cannot take in consideration "no" or any argument, anything that is not aligned with their demands. It must be as they told me - or else.. I get reprimanded, yelled at, screamed at, hysteria from them.
So in all 3 there might be some anger, but it is more problem of my own repressed emotions, repressed thoughts, repressed voice, repressed opinions - in order not to fight again and again, not to rock the boat, not to listen to annoying and obnoxious abuse.
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Fight is dysfunctional, as much as fawn. As fawn, the fight also makes us to stay in stress response. With both responses we see the world as hostile, unfriendly, cold and scary place. Soon enough, we see threat in everything and everyone, even in people who meant no harm, but our brain thinks we are attacked and in danger. We become what we hate. Aggression breeds aggression. We become monster ourselves, we become toxic people, we bleed on other people who are not guilty and who do not deserve to be treated by our rage emotions. That is issue with fight response and why it is not healthy option.
I would say fight response would be ok in extreme situation, such as Straw Dogs (1971) - but such situations are very rare if they ever happen.
Also, I would say fawn response would be ok in certain situations, for example taking care of someone who is unable and needs help.
So, as I understand our goal instead of fight or fawn - we need to calm down and be grounded instead of flipping of in 4F responses as we learned in our trauma childhood.
What I have problem with are situations with people who are unable to respond to our assertiveness, when we express our opinion, when we do all by the book, when we are honest and authentic - yet these people who are stubborn repeatedly again and again - and you are stuck with them, you cannot run away, cut the contact. How to deal with situation where as adult we are again in situation as a kid once, traumatized by someone. What are adult responses when advice how to deal with difficult does not work?
That's where I am stuck now, and I also have anger issues - and would tend to fight response - floating between fight and fawn, but I know it is dysfunctional.
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I learned anger mode does not work :( It makes me feel irritated and it prolongs trauma feelings. I bleed on other people who are innocent and do not deserve me deregulated. I learned that when I go to anger, I become toxic myself, and pretty soon everything irritates me.
As I understand, fawn is not love, thus fight is not being strong - it is trauma response. We are using dysfunctional responses to deal with our triggers due to thinking errors inside our minds, that is what needs fixing.
So when we no longer try to get approval from others, we would use no smile trick in certain situations - depending on circumstances, not to use it all the time as default mode, not when we are feeling triggered. Because when we are triggered, everyone seem dangerous and annoying to us, and we create damage by our over-reaction.
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"Fawning is only constructive when you are around narcissist and when you are trapped, you can't get away from narcissist. That's just your psychological mind protecting itself any way it can." 10:35
thank you.
I did not know what to do with fawning. Do I accept it? Do I upgrade it? Do I reject it and replace it with fight response? Your message clarifies it.
"Fawning is not people skill."
"We live in place of fear when we don't have boundaries, we feel exposed to elements, exposed to whims of other people. Everything that happens on the outside of us we feel on the inside of us because we don't have boundaries there."
That's the greatest trigger for me, this triggers me - other people anger, criticism, I feel like it rips me inside out, it is very painful and embarrassing.
"You don't need other people to meet your basic psychological emotional needs. All these concepts mix together, muddled when you don't have boundaries. Have to be learned or learned for the first time if they were not developed in childhood"
Yep, I think I need this to learn for the first time. I knew there was something missing, I knew concept that during childhood if we are traumatized, we do not built ourselves the right way, something will be missing. Piaget talked about stages during childhood.
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(25.6.2021)
we have been carved like a puzzle piece by abusive significant others, we have to look at the big picture. We have been socialized, through repititious traumatic experience to "fit in," to abusive patterns, situations, and environments, to our detriment.
Yeah, in the mean time, I was writing blog about this, my fears - and I found out that it all comes down to being in situation where one person refused to hear alternative, and this person in rude, aggressive and abusive in insisting that they need to be right. And this triggers me into trauma response, I choose fawn. And then I got second wave of uncomfortable feelings - feelings of incompetence and cowardice, which molds into third wave - toxic shame. And without trauma information:
1) I have no idea there is trigger and what triggers me - instead it seems like this is what is normal; people are rude in general and they hate me and I should isolate and live with social anxiety and avoidance. And I need to through fawning fit into all people by appeasing them, since they can't handle calm and assertive response,
(for example, in 1995 when I was 18, I was thrown out of car when in driving school because my driver instructor was screamin and yelling at me, demanded perfection for something I did for the first time - and I calmly told him I can't drive while he is hysterical like that - and he threw me out in the street out of car and drove off. That is how large portion people in Croatia behave, very nervous and narcissistic and I thought all people are like this and I must fit in through fawning)
2) I have no idea that there are categories of fears inside me, it all appears to me like one gigantic fear and one enormous toxic shame
3) Without Polyvagal Theory and videos like this (thank God for you tube and people who help us through this media) - I found out that when I am triggered I am in a trance. It appears as normal reality to me and I play along. I found out I am dysregulated when afraid, and my task is to get regulated again - knowing I am not aware of emotions, I mislabel them, I need to decompress, I have no idea of self worth, I look for external reference (other people reactions, criticism and emotions hurt me), instead I need built worth within etc. These are all new information for me. I was convinced for 20 years I had social anxiety and avoidance, but their advice from books and internet is misleading. They talk about calming down - only through meditation and breathing, they do not mention we are tricked, we were tricked into trauma bonding. They do not mention trauma information at all...
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I sticked with writing my thoughts out in a blog though and today I had a breakthrough today!
I had problem with fawning - and today I realized it is trauma bonding that was issue for me, all the time. All the sources mention trauma bonding as being a romantic or parental issue. But somehow during childhood I protrude trauma bonding to every single person out there, literally known or unknown people, that I might come into any kind of contact, causing me to choose social anxiety and avoidance as defense mechanism to protect myself since I had (unwittingly and unconsciously) open borders policy. I did not know that until today. That's what wrong with the books - they do not define concepts well, so the information is somewhat misleading. Or - it is too general and thus it doesn't help.
I was convinced all the time that I must trauma bond with everyone no matter what. This created plethora of triggers related to asking someone for help - which is never, in order for me not to bother other people.. or on the other hand, if someone asking me for help - - which I'd always say yes, afraid of getting into conflict if I say no. And I would get triggered if someone displayed angry, rude emotions, especially if directed at me. And I also did not know what setting boundaries is. The definition is also faulty in the books and any resources. Because they described it without taking in mind that there are people like me who trauma bond with everyone automatically - of course I do not know what boundaries are from such perspective. I see everyone - literally every one - strangers included - as close and personal "friend" who is allowed to take advantage of me and I keep myself open, everyone can come and take whatever they want - but I did not realize I was thinking in this way. That I can allow myself to stop thinking everyone as automatic one-sided "friend" or absolute authority that has total rule over me - and I must obey. I thought that everyone thinks like this, that this is norm and normal! That my task is to fit in to others always, no matter what.
To anyone who is still struggling with Complex Trauma, write your thoughts, it really helps, reading books is ok - but we are the only one to seek and find our distorted thinking that is creating our issues, and it is not our fault. We were programmed into trauma, we were hypnotized, and as adults we just now need to find out what hypnosis message was.
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(26.6.2021)
I've been struggling with social anxiety since I was 12. In kindergarten I was very social and initiate stuff, trying to be diplomatic and mediate and make peace when kids would fight. I found out that Social anxiety is not inability to talk with other people at all. It only looks like that on surface. It goes much deeper in our psyche.
I found out it is the result of trauma and dysfunctional parenting and dysfunctional childhood and environment where we grew up. We got trained off track and we were explained in wrong way how to deal with issues - or probably not being told at all - so we had to find it out by ourselves, as clueless kids, searching for strategies as kids, that we got now stuck with as adults.
What you said about "Other people being douche bags" when they do not talk back to us - it hurts us because it is a form of rejecting, our worst social anxiety fear coming true. And we take it personally, but they might be scared of being exploited or hurt by strangers. As you said, "Other people are anxious, too." Some people interpret random talk with strangers weird and abnormal, out of norm, that they see others as someone who would probably want to mock them or steal something from them.
It is not about talking. We have ability to talk. I found out that social anxiety is problem about negotiating and inability to negotiate with people.
And what you said about "getting close to people, being open about our feelings" - I realized that people feel burden and soon it turns into whining. Instead - being honest would be better solution.
I see isolation in the house is the way to control stress. It does make anxiety worse, but the problem is in our heads, how we were wired to think in childhood. So exposure (being outside) would only make us continue to make wrong reactions, as we learned them wrong in our childhood. It is like our hand brake is stuck and we can't drive smoothly.
Therapists mostly don't know what is emotional dysregulation and then their advice would be misleading, if not hurtful.
Medics block symptoms, but symptoms are normal reaction to abnormal situation. When my hands are shaking - that is natural way to release shock out of our body - by shaking it out. Instead of stopping it, I should shake fingers even more, like a wet dog trying to dry itself by shaking.
I found out that social anxiety is trauma bonding, that is Stockholm Syndrome. We put our trust in other people to be our parents, to take care of us. This is why we are scared of them, we put incredible amount of responsibility on their hands, we do it unconsciously, we are not aware of this. We learned as kids that negotiating, solving problems with others does not work - that all people are stubborn and they won't back off if we express our opinion and our viewpoint and our suggestions how to do something.
So that is why social anxiety makes us feeling danger when around other people. We think it is because we are scared to talk with them, but basic communication is not problem at all. The problem is the trade with them, when we need some service, help or task from them, and vice versa - when they expect something from us. My default response is fawning - to say yes, people please them, in order to avoid conflict and their negative reaction. I thought that fawning is communication skill and that is normal way to interact with people. Fight response, to be angry at them and to be aggressive is also dysfunctional response, it just works in the opposite direction.
The solution would be to communicate issues with people in adult way, without hysteria, without shouting, and without making other person small - it is about taking into consideration all opinion and agreeing what would be the best solution.
So the real problem are narcissists, abusers, people who are stubborn and refuse to achieve some agreement, it must be their way or highway. The more we are aware that social anxiety is trauma response, and the more successful ways we find in dealing with those type of stubborn psychopaths, our social anxiety will diminish. It is not about feeling scared of talking to strangers. It is about fear that stranger might potentially hurt us when we are being honest and when we state what we need or think about.
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"If you don't enter into bubble of they are so wonderful and perfect, all this stuff they are promoting about themselves then they'll discard you in the beginning. They'll see you as someone who isn't delusional as they are."
Amazing channel, I love it! This is information I needed to hear for so long and I could not get it anywhere, this explains so much narcissistic crazymaking presented as norm.
I have problem with this when we are not talking about romantic relationship - but much complex and intertwined close relationships.
What happens in family where you just can't escape and end the contact with them? What happens in job environment, where the culturally narcissism is accepted as norm.
My last first line manger explained to me that basically toxic masculinity is accepted as standard, something normal, and that in fact I am weak, coward and need to toughen up - because I always insisted in civilized argument, without cursing, belittling and toxically ashaming someone. She is not the only one here, this is truly norm where I live. What to do then where your basic life - family and job is infected by mass narcissism - I see only one way - plan & relocation ultimately.
"In any way, can be slight mere suggestion they cant be perfect, what they think they are this inflicts narcissistic injury. You poked hole insinuating they misunderstood something because narcissist is always right. At small levels, that is poking hole, they perceive that as all out attack"
You are describing my parent, grandma and plethora of characters I met on my job here. I would made some objective observation and they would get suddenly angry as if I made some crime against civilization. And if I commented on that anger - they would comment I am too sensitive!
Imagine living in a country where certain jobs are protected by system, and when you need to get papers done, some bureaucratic stuff, of medical - and you live in corrupt country where the person who's job is to help you is abdicated from responsibility (being kind and at service) is narcissistic - your existence and bothering them inflicts narcissistic injury. When you go to school, teachers slapping you in your face, getting driver's license, the instructor expect perfection from you and goes into full rage if you make tiny mistake, and tell them you can't drive any more when he yells at you - so he throws you out of car. At university, you need to pay to get some classes.
"It took me time to realize mental illness of it as she switched personalities, whatever they are thinking in that moment, opposite of moment before, not based in reality, they change belief system depending whom they are around and what they want out of that situation."
Jesus, this explains so so much of what I've been through, all the rage yelling, screaming, hysteria. I always believed it was me as kid, and as I grew up I thought I was to blame.
" She would change personality and expect everyone to change with her"
"they expect they are center of universe, if they think it than it is new real, and that everyone is on board with the new real, doesn't matter how many times in a day that changes, they will still expect you to play along. "
Oh yeah, spot on!
People who were not in contact with this in their childhood cannot understand how messed up this really is, how such people can be disturbing and how damaging narcissism is.
I even noticed I picked some hidden needs and desires - like need to be perfect, or to feel triggered when I feel someone thinks I am coward. So it could be contagious, too.
But I do not feel resentment or need to attack them back, I see it as mental illness and I want information how to be resilient, not to believe them - where the first step would be to recognize the other person is psychopath, so I do not get inside their world.
As I understand now, the only protection is being honest. If I am kind, if my truth is not rude and it does not belittle someone objectively, then if someone tries to shut me up, especially through temper tantrums, I should know this person - if repeated - is probably best not to be in closer contact with than necessary, for our own mental peace. Cause if not, in the end we end up in prison - in our avoidance, at home, avoiding people and life - living in self made prison to keep safe - while they don't care and live as they want.
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(27.6.2021)
I understand the fear of confrontation. You don't want to hurt their feelings. You don't want them to feel uncomfortable with you, or that they think you are a bad person. You don't want them to cut contact with you, to reject you.
What we go through is Trauma Bonding. That is trauma bonding. We think we have communication skills, social skills through what we do as trauma bonding. We are not aware we have trauma bonding.
In information available, trauma bonding is explained as connection with parents or with romantic person.
This is why many people do not seek information about it and we are not aware we have this Trauma Bonding issue.
Trauma Bonding can be with anyone, non family, strangers even.
As kids, we learned that to deal with people we must be good and kind with everyone, and we give up ourselves to other people to keep peace. And we think everyone is doing this, that this is norm.
We see some people who tell off others - and we label this as arrogance, and it probably is, because most people do not know how to express what they dislike with other people, mostly they are rude to others - but this not rely to us, we want to be liked, and we want peace - so as kids we learned that Trauma Bonding is the only way to achieve this goal. And we are not aware what we are doing is Trauma Bonding!
The instant you really understand what Trauma Bonding is (Stockholm Syndrome) - you will realize you can be honest with people. You can tell what you think - with sugar coating in order to keep peace.
We could not do this before, because we would feel physical symptoms (racing heart, fear, trauma symptoms really), and we would give up on confronting others.
With Trauma Bonding we don't believe there are people out there who are psychopaths. Everyone is friend. We do not know what boundaries are. We do not see objectively reality around us. Our goal is to be ok with every single person on this planet.
That is not realistic.
So, the next time - take small steps - for example, don't confront them directly - you can say the truth;, Well thank you - I have never received so much advice from my own parents in my life. See if they catch your drift.
Next time you repeat it and you can add, but I don't need more advices, my head is full. You are honest, you are not telling lies. And you are telling them they cross your boundaries.
And problem are people who do not take in consideration other people words. Problem are people who have one-sided communication. Problem are people who do not see reality objectively and they cross the line and are rude because they think they are special and unwritten rules do not apply to them.
You do not need communication skills, you already have it all inside you. You need to inform yourself about Trauma Bonding. ;=)
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(28.6.2021)
All great tips, however you omitted people who were scared since childhood by other people that caused the withdrawal and isolation (complex trauma).
I thought I had social anxiety because of fear of potential criticism of others. But it goes much deeper when you look at it from trauma perspective. There are very negative people out there that do not play by the rules. They exploit and hurt people intentionally just to hurt them.
And if we are open, friendly and want relationship, basically when we are normal and healthy, we attract such people like a moth to a flame. We trust all people are like us, normal and sane - so we do not filter people out, we want to be fair and give everyone second chance and go beyond shadow of doubt. They will exploit our need for friendship, deep connection and plain conversation, not being lonely.
Additional problem are people who we can't filter out (due to family, job, service and task we need to do) - and then we are in contact with such people who trigger our emotions and sanity.
That is what people with social anxiety need - information how to deal with conflict, and find out the reason why we are afraid to stand up for ourselves and what options we have when we are faced with difficult people.
I found out that my social anxiety is actually trauma bonding. In my dysfunctional childhood I learned from my close environment that it is not safe to express what I need (I would be punished or mocked or ashamed for having opinion), and that I must be attuned to other people emotions and need in order to avoid getting punished, mocked or rejected.
So as adult I exhibit social anxiety - being afraid of negative comment and potential criticism. I do not understand that I am under Trauma Bonding spell. I do not trust that my opinion matter so I self-censor myself. I believe the other - loud, obnoxious and aggressive people are valid, correct automatically just by them displaying impatience and nervousness. I am afraid to hurt someone feelings and I go along with their opinions, demands and wishes, even if they are intrusive. I believe that I must be good person and that the others will become good if I treat them good. That they will stop being rude and realize by themselves when they cross the line of unwritten social rules. I believe I must be in contact with everyone and that I must not ignore them or cut contact if they clearly do not want to take into consideration my opinion.
So, once I realized I had Trauma Bonding (Stockholm syndrome) instead of Social Anxiety, everything became much clearer and suddenly I could stand on my feet, be grounded, instead of fluttering in the air, depending how other people feel, act.
Hopefully, someone will find this information helpful - I've been struggling with social anxiety for 30+ years, you do not have to waste your life in fear of other people and their potential, real or imagined reactions.
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Once we stop trauma bonding (the concept behind people pleasing) we will find out that we attract narcissists and psychopaths - we attract them like moth to flame. And probably we live in such environment. This means, we play by the rules, we have empathy, we follow unwritten social rules - and they do not. We want to be fair, they manipulate everyone. We are grounded in love, they are up in fantasy world of parasitism and exploiting everyone.
So, we will not people please people, but such psychopaths will play mind games and exploit our weaknesses, without us being aware. Normal and healthy people are open with people - these parasites exploit information to hurt, ashame and attack us later on.
This means, to enforce not people please, we need to be ready to cut ties, abandon the need to be friends with everyone, allow bad people to be mad at us for not complying with their unreasonable demands. If there are people who are not reasonable, if they never listen to our opinions, if they refuse to be objective and they are constantly negative, insulting and ashaming - these people must go from our lives - which may entail confrontation - being honest and tell them, alert them when they are rude.
Behind people pleasing is trauma bonding. They exploit our trauma reactions against ourselves (being scared, hyper-alert, feeling physically uncomfortable when there is argument, being open, tolerance limits).
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I like pics of Julien from before, in his shyness he looks like more friendlier, nicer and approachable than super confident version. I would never approach to modern Julien if I had choice with whom to talk to for the first time. Younger version gives me impression he won't yell, scream or make drama if he disagrees or does not approve what I say.
Of course, modern Julien is awesome once you give yourself time to listen him, but I am talking here about the first impression.
Too many narcissists in my life (people who display temper tantrum, narc injury to get what they want) gave me impression that people who employ trespassing some basic courtesy and gentleness equals danger. And confidence means trespassing some basic courtesy and gentleness.
This is what you miss in this great video - missing link are other people who are negative, aggressive, psychopaths, narcissists. We can learn so much about ourselves, but if we do not learn about external factor - other people - we do not learn about setting boundaries, which is also a part of having confidence.
We play by the rules, yet there are dark people who invent their own rules and they play by their rules, and if we are super confident, we may not notice it, because we do not have chip inside to identify red flags since we are obsessed by confidence and being in the race of me being the king of the hill.
We may think our confidence will help us, being honest, being super straightforward and not being afraid to tell what we mean - but what in situations where you depend on psychopaths to meet some goal, task, need, service. Your confidence will not help. Your confidence will tell you to get into fight response - which is trigger and dysfunctional. Aggression breeds aggression. Trying to change other people is cognitive distortion anyway. We are open for argument, finding the middle ground - they are not. We are ready to listen and be fair - they are not. We employ assertive technique - they throw temper tantrum.
In this kind of situation (which is the worst case scenario for people with social anxiety disorder), confidence, skills is not helpful - in fact, it makes things much worse, because psychopaths exploit security holes in being a good, normal, healthy and social human being. And we are talking here about full psychos. It doesn't mean they are fully aggressive, they are backstabbing, passive aggressive and playing a victim and exploiting your healthy shame, healthy guilt against you in order for them to get whatever they want.
I am talking about people who are mentally ill and they are not aware of it. Yet, they are in position where you need them, you need their help, you need their service, there is no alternative. You must be in contact with them. And growing up with such environment you developed defense mechanisms -- that only makes confidence harder to reach.
So if confidence means lack fear and to mock shy kid you once were - you put dark parts, dark shadow on parts of yourself that are not bad, that are not in the same level as psychopaths, and you will self sabotage ( for example, you will repel good people out of your life because they will feel threatened by you). And you will miss red flags against manipulators.
For people who are struggling with severe case of social fears with external referencing - start with Trauma Bonding information.
Many people think they have social anxiety (due to symptoms, withdrawal, isolation and panic attacks) - but in fact if other people emotions, words hurt you too much - it is trauma bonding, social anxiety is only a symptom. Stockholm Syndrome is above it, it is hypnosis we enter when we are around people, especially rude ones. We are programmed to be afraid of people (by dysfunctional environment in our childhood and later life).
All this means, people who have social anxiety are probably victims of psychopaths, and they are not aware of it. And to get confidence, social skill and get back trust to people in order to have communication - start with information how to handle manipulators, psychopaths and narcissists. First step would be identifying them. So you don't waste your energy, time and resources playing by the rules, while in reality they invent rules along the way.
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(29.6.2021)
"The next step is walking away, and doing that quickly."
That is very common myth and understanding of narcissism. People think it is romantic relationship or parental issue.
It is not.
It is about all people. All people around us. Where will you walk away if all people trigger you? People in general take advantage of people, if they see you do not react to their rude behaviour, they will continue their harmful behaviour. So the problem with walking away is - you end up in places where you did not want to be.
The more healthier approach would be to filter out narcissists - which means you start to react to rude behaviour in healthy, adult way, instead of employing 4F trauma responses: Fight - Freeze - Flight - Fawn , which you suggest flight here - is immature response from amygdala, the better solution is to see if person who appears as narcissist is narcissist - does this person will listen you once you stop self-censoring yourself and talk back? Will they take your words and respect boundaries - or will they display narcissistic rage and injury, displaying my way or high way?
Some people act as narcissists because they had narcissistic environment, and they picked up some tool to deal with people wrong way.
The point what I am making - what will you do when you cannot run away from detected and real narcissist? Due to finances, job, family, task and service. That is the more important question. What you do then? What you do in this case when you cannot run away anymore?
The point of this book is to realize there is concept called "Trauma bonding" - and we self sabotage ourselves how to react in such impossible situations.
Trauma suggest we were programmed in dysfunctional childhood to abdicate our rights automatically and to love the abuser. Consciously and unconsciously. And trauma means we are hyperalert and we have physical symptoms that we interpret as fear, submission and to keep quiet, because we equate emotions with facts. We feel scared - so we think we are cowards and we have no power to stand up to bully.
Narcissists think they are entitled, we think we are not entitled - this is why we attract them like moth to a flame. They are parasiting on our trauma. On our fears.
Even if we run away - we will attract the new ones, they sniff out our lack of boundaries.
So what we are left is to work on our Trauma Bonding and breaking the invisible bondages, shackles that we connect ourselves with other people automatically.
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I don't believe in the human magnet syndrome. Ones you realize that there is such a thing as emotional abuse and learn to spot it, the game is over.
Yet, there are people with "Trauma Bonding" and both realization part and game over is not accessible as option. Imagine bondages attached - you cannot break them with your hands, and imagine that you are unable to see bondages, yet they exist. That is trauma.
We were programmed, instructed in our childhood not to see bondages and to serve narcissists.
It is as if went in a special school for slaves and servants of mentally ill people - and now as adults we start to be aware what happened and that we were hypnotized into it. Waking up from coma is not easy, and the first step would be to realize what happened - which is hard if you employ their skill - ego defense mechanism in a form of denial.
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It's not fair to censor the opposing opinion - then you become abuser yourself, toxic and narcissist. That is the problem with narcissism - you cannot beat the monster without becoming one.
If there is one world government conspiracy - then perhaps someone who is feeding you this particular information is cult itself, that is exposing you to trauma and hypnotizing you into their agenda.
That is what happened in our history - in France they overthrow corrupt king - only to be replaced with corrupt peasants. In Russia they overthrow genocide king only to replaced it with communist genocide.
The solution is what InfoJunkie tried to tell you and you dismissed it, already hypnotized into fear and trauma of one world government conspiracy.
The solution is to employ "Socratic questioning". Always be objective, in politics or in relationship with people. That is being mentally healthy. See everything from all sides, and question the dark areas, postulates and ideas - are they based on facts. If the source is not giving you information that is not verifiable, true and consistent - you are being manipulated.
Not all manipulators are violent and aggressive. Some are mentally ill and they want you to fall in their victim trap, to follow them like Pied Piper, like cult - so they get your money, attention, support, time and energy.
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I got to the root of my intrusive thoughts:
anxiety = overthinking
Overthinking = intrusive thoughts
Intrusive thoughts = PureOCD
PureOCD = Complex trauma
Complex trauma (PTSD) = wound
wound = Trauma Bonding
Trauma Bonding causing all these. I form an unhealthy bond with the person because I was taught that is normal to abdicate my right to other people - and then I overthink, being in constant state of panic and being hyper-alert around other people, especially with rude, aggressive and abusive ones.
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(30.6.2021)
I get comfort and control from negative thinking. I know what to expect.
I think you are onto something. What we resist, persist. That is why Cognitive Techniques are failing so much to help. They are like medicine over counter - it works for 5 minutes, but as soon as you face reality (someone aggressive, abusive, exaggerated expectations), we are right back where we started.
This what you said is actually I am starting to process and give form, I write about it on my blogs.
What you said is actually - to deal with constant, intrusive thoughts is to accept them. But not to accept them in a way that for example your negative thoughts tell you life is miserable or I am failure - it is about agreeing in part with them. It is like arguing with difficult person techniques. We think life is miserable - than validate that thought. There are parts of life that are really miserable and awful, that is not unreal, that is fact. Yet, we can be aware that there is also good things - and the fact that we never know what will happen next - so we can become hopeful about it.
Or if we think we are jerk - re-modulate it in the American saying "no one beats the dead dog". It means ok, then I am, I accept myself as I am. This will provide me energy not to care what someone thinks - since I am not so important and grandeur.
It is about finding innovative ways of modulating negative thinking by accepting them and surfing on them.
---
Because our default ways of operating. Hypnosis. We were programmed to think in cognitive distortions. It suggest trauma - dysfunctional parenting when we were kids and unable to process the burden that our environment put on us. We were raised with discipline and without love.
Now, we simply repeat what we learned - as kids we made explanations how to deal with trauma, a lot of explanations are in form of cognitive distortions, thinking errors, thinking traps. Freud called it ego defense mechanisms. Some defense mechanisms are mature (functional) such as doing some sport as relief from stress. But it is still defense mechanism. That suggest we are fighting against something. We react to something deep inside.
That is healthy part inside us that fights messages from unrecognized, untreated mentally ill people messages and instructions who shaped us (our psyche) when we were clueless, defenseless, little kids.
B. F Skinner said: "Society attacks early, when the individual is helpless"
If we ignore trauma part, and focus solely on cognitive techniques, we will fall right back to our default programming - as soon as we get triggered, get in bad situations, when faced with difficult and hard issues.
I thought for 20+ years that I had social anxiety for example -and I focused on symptoms and advice given for social anxiety - to expose, to calm down physical symptoms, to focus on other people instead of my fears. Those are all wrong advice - for instead of social anxiety there is Trauma Bonding. This means, I need to feel trembling hands - that is how trauma is released through body, it should not be blocked. I should not focus on other people because that is External referencing in my mindset installed - constantly look at other people approval and expect their needs. I need to calm down trigger, exposing will not help with bonding mindset because I cannot control other people - to control other people is cognitive distortion. So without Complex Trauma information - I would be stuck with unhelpful cognitive techniques as proposed for social anxiety and avoidance issues.
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I would extend the area of definition of "people" we are talking here -
it is not people whom we have romantic relationship, parental one, or friendship. That realization was shocking to me. I thought that other people do not matter, and they are not connected to my thinking errors, false beliefs.
It is every connection - with everyone. Strangers, someone we meet once, coworkers, everyone we could, might come into contact with. Then this makes sense to me.
We enter into contact with other people with our false beliefs already present, but we are not aware we have them with any people out there.
Now this question reveals a lot:
"How do you communicate those standards, to meet those standards, you expect them to met those standards?"
My communication with others was Trauma Bonding, but I was not aware I had it, I was convinced that it was normal behavior. I thought if I give up my opinion, and go along with what everyone else wants, needs and takes - that this is communication skill, to abdicate and presume other people are superior, competent and healthy. Without any communication channel, now all I was left with were False Beliefs. I read other people minds, I presume what others want, I do not question it or ask for facts or objectivity. I thought I would avoid confrontation and negative emotions from others. That was the defense mechanism, false beliefs I dealt with other people. And of course, in reality this is not functional, it is not healthy. People would still enter into arguments, and they would accuse me of things I didn't do - but because of my silence, they would interpret this as open border and they would ashame me for things that are not true. My silence would only be a sign to them they are right.
So changing false beliefs will not happen if we are not aware of trauma that is causing them. I thought I had social anxiety and avoidance problem for so many decades, while in fact it was Trauma Bonding, producing thinking traps keeping me in silence, self-censoring myself and shutting up. Now I know better. The answer is keeping to facts and objectivity - instead of automatically believing in false beliefs from myself but also as I said - not believing automatically in the false beliefs from other people as well. It is about recognizing other people have false beliefs also. It is not only us. Other people are also a crucial factor - and this is so often discounted and suppressed by official medical sources.
Yeah, we play by the book, we follow all advice given by therapists, clinicians and information available - all the right steps and moves - yet there are untreated mentally ill people out there. We unfortunately take a stance believing we are "damages" ones - and we are the only ones who need to be "healed" - but this makes us into victim role - where we see ourselves as damaged goods, while all other people are normal and healthy. Which would mean, that whatever we think and do is abnormal, and we must look up to other people for guidance and telling us what to do.
This is very dangerous - because there are narcissists out there and abusers who sniff out good, kind and open people like us - and they manipulate, gaslight us.
So if we have problem with core beliefs, with intrusive thoughts, with cognitive distortions, with thinking traps - we should be aware we are fighting on two lines. One front line is ourselves, but the other line is the others. If we focus only on our own shortcomings, we allow others to control us. It is like we wash our hands and expect everyone else is following the rules, so we trust we cannot catch some virus when we step out in the world.
Whoever is struggling with inner issues, see how to be resilient to other people as well. It is often a sign of complex trauma that got us programmed in the childhood to serve, obey and be slaves to narcissistic, abusive people in our adulthood.
We may heal the symptoms, but the cause of our wounds getting cut will still be out there if we are not aware of external factors, too.
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(2.7.2021)
If you refer to yourself as little b***ch, sorry but that is self abuse. People are codependent due to reasons they need money, safety from other people - if they are not pleasing to others, they might lose their jobs. It is not about abandonment. Problem is trauma from childhood.
Also, by mocking yourself from the past, the inner shadow is now inverted if you abuse your "not desired" parts. Instead of blocking your dark parts, now dark parts are blocking good parts, there is no balance if you mock, bully and suppress your friendly version of yourself.
I battle codependency, but I do not perceive it as seeking validation as primary motive. That is only secondary or even tertiary motive - or in some cases even by-product.
The primary motive is - from authority and feeling that life is threatened. The other person has something that I need and many times that other side does not allow my opinion, talk, speech, defense. So we can see we are not the only factor here. It is not about seeking to be validated from other people or that they might leave us. That is common mistake from medical community and motivators. They focus too much on a person, as if person is the only one to be blamed and guilty one. That is toxic shame. There is always action and reaction. If I react chronically scared and always serving to others - this always means there are narcissists, manipulators and abusers on the other side.
Someone who gives us employment - money, service- help, some kind of resources and they demand from you to serve them, and they usually verbally abuse you in order to control you. How we react to this situation - if we cannot see what is going on here, and we base our thoughts, actions and words on our auto-pilot, that is codependency. Fear of severe punishment that will lead to death or serious life threatening injury (lost of home and living on the streets, homeless).
That is codependency primary motive, not abandonment from this person.
It is trauma bonding, learned from complex trauma lessons. We are programmed to serve abusers, narcissists as little kids, when we could not see other options available and plethora of facts and objectivity. Now it repeats in situations when we need something from other people - that normally healthy people otherwise do through interdependence and cooperation.
If the mentally ill person is on the other side, we react as codependents in order to secure resources that we need. That is the primary motive, not abandonment. If there is option, we would choose abandonment - in order to move away from monsters who attack us and exploit us and parasite over our hidden traumas. We are aware we are abused, so we could not care less about validation from this person - their abandonment would be the solution for us.
So I would say, to overcome codependency is to find our voice and start to defend ourselves a little - tell them 'how I really feel' as you said - but this is general advice. What to say? With trauma bonding and complex trauma, to tell someone how I really feel activates fight response - dysfunctional response - similar to attacking yourself and calling yourself names, verbally abusing the target.
That is the way out of codependency - to find a way how to express myself authentically but without temper tantrum as reaction to someone's response. This part is not explained by official medical sources and motivators.
What happens when the other person is rude and aggressive and unwilling to hear us?
The assertiveness tells us that we must speak, but not expect the other person to listen us.
Also, cognitive distortions tell us that we cannot expect to change other people - it is not possible and it is not mental health to modify other people. So, the better focus instead of other people is:
What happens when we get triggered?
And this trigger, why we are codependent in the first place is the indicator that it is not our fault to be codependent. There is external factor - childhood programming by narcissist environment and abuse, and today, as adult when we are in contact with narcissists and psychopaths, because we attract them like moth to a flame. They avoid aggressive, rude people. They like pleasant people.
So - the way out of codependency is actually fighting on two fronts. Being honest, authentic will not work if we are not aware that 1) we were told as kids that we must satisfy our basic Maslow needs through other people who are abusive to us and 2) that the other people we may come into contact are mentally ill - and they will not follow the unwritten social rules. We will play by the book - but they will not, thus they will exploit our goodness and willingness to cooperate. Now, when we know what is going on - we can say in more detail what means to be authentic and honest with people. It means not to self censor ourselves and always to be objective and tell the truth, the facts. It is making observation and taking evaluation what we are dealing with around us. If we say be honest - without taking all things in consideration would mean that we allow ourselves to go to fight response - even when there are not life threatening situations that require actual fight response (yelling, screaming, attacking). We attract narcissists because we are normal, friendly, good people - and they see us as perfect target for their life and for their agenda.
We can respond to abusive people by becoming like them, through embracing our dark shadow and be rude ourselves, to mock ourselves how we looked in the past for example. But that is not fair, that is not strength, that is weakness. It is the same as making fun of dog that went through severe abuse, and we make fun of him how he shivers around any sound. Having empathy is not weakness. And some people are not aware they are narcissists and our alarming them about how they act will do the trick.
And codependency comes down how we react with people. It is closely connected to social anxiety. We see ourselves as inferior due to childhood programming so we enter in any contact through trauma bonding - seeing other people superior, valid and strong -, especially if they are loud and rude. So we think if we accept dark parts of ourselves that provide us to be rude and loud, that we will somehow magically heal ourselves and not be codependent. As if being kind is equal to being weak.
That's not how it works. If we think like that, we think we are doing the right thing by making internal locus instead of external referencing (seeing other people as our worth).
That would work if we live in heaven or some clean place where there are no mentally ill, abusive, narcissistic people, where there is no evil.
What happens when we need to meet Maslow needs - and we must be in contact with other people to meet those needs to fulfill them for us?
And those other people are mentally ill - by being abusive, by mocking others, by exploiting others and stealing from them resources, energy and time for their own selfish purposes?
What happens when we are internally focused, we have our values, we are not ashamed how we look and how we act - and at our job, environment we are repeatedly laughed at, mocked because of our own choices and internally focused values? Normal people do not mock other people, yet there are out there people who cross unwritten social norms and etiquette. You might say I ignore it - but that is immature ego defense - denial, and it is very damaging, because it suppresses painful events and hide it throughout our body. That is how we developed Complex Trauma in our childhood in the first place - we were told by our dysfunctional environment that our reactions ,feelings and emotions are stupid, that we are over sensitive and that we must be masculine and strong- as reaction to lack of love and sanity by our close environment.
What happens when due to your job - you must be in close contact with people who trigger you and you have no other alternative but to be with them, asking things from them and require their time and energy, which they charge so preciously (because they are mentally sick)?
The only solution is - by our words, by our reactions. That is the only way to break codependency - to be aware we have choice to react and : 1) to tell the truth 2) to be objective (take general environment) 3) stick to the facts. As kids we were not provided by this fact of talking, this option of talking was severely punished and we learned to shut up and take the abuse. As adults we have power to talk. In all civilized countries if we are physically attacked because of our talking - that is criminal act against us, it has official punishment and reprimand, if someone attacks us. Slowly mobbing laws will protect us from verbal abuse. If we choose fight response (as over reaction) - that will not work. Codependent people are calm people, they want peace, and they avoid conflicts. And that is the second problem : what happens when we say what we want but we get negative response? No one talks about this. Mentally ill people, narcissists and abusers love to fight, they love to argue, they do not want peace and admit they are wrong. They employ gaslighting to make conversation difficult. They are excellent at cycle of honeymoon phase and punishment in order to brainwash us and to rationalize their abuse. So being honest and talkative in this case will lead us to nowhere - just overboard and into fight response and they will use it as weapon against us -they will say that we are abusers. That's the biggest mistake that people who deal with codependency (both by mentors and targets) - cannot understand. That there is external factor - evil people out there.
Codependency is complex, it cannot be overcome by simple rule - for example by being honest. It is about balance - what are our needs, what rights we have, and what are other people needs and what rights they have.
As codependent we were programmed to forfeit our rights in any situation with anyone. That is not our fault. And of course, being pruned like that - we are magnet for narcissists and abusers and exploiters. When we know this, when we see ourselves from this perspective - than the second problem - how to deal with impossible people - is that we ignore them - and cut contact if possible. Without realizing we were victims of trauma, we would feel guilty for standing up for ourselves. And we would feel very scared to be honest with people.
And if we are stuck with difficult people in our lives that we cannot escape (due to job, family, service, help that we need from them) - then at least we can feel peace and find courage to react, to talk back, to warn and to alert them - when they go over board. With time we will break our bondage with them, there will be opportunities and we can plan the escape plan. The first step is the change of perspective, and I hope people who struggle with this will find some help in my text here - or at least start to realize the toxic shame that hinders us to see what is going on and what is important and ultimate goal - interdependence and having normal and healthy environment. Perhaps we may not be able to cut ties with psychopaths, but we can cut contact with toxic shame imposed inside us by psychopaths from the past , present and future, telling us we are guilty, strange, weird, small, insignificant and weak. We can cut toxic shame from inside us that is producing trauma bonding, codependency and people pleasing.
Many times we will discover when we alert the abuser about their actions, they will be very defensive and minimize it by ashaming us that we are too sensitive. We can reply - how would you feel if I tell you that what you told me? Abusers are ego centric and they are unable to put themselves in other people shoes nor do they want to. That is our weapon we can use against them. Being ego centric means that they are little babies stuck in a body of grown up person, and that is why they are aggressive - they are actually very scared and confused about adult world and they have only childhood tools to deal with people and life. They are not superior, they just act like superior, That is their mask. They are frail spoiled little brats, hidden under the adult body.
When we are calmed down, we can operate from cortex brain - and that will provide us with words how to react and what is the best solution - ignore or to say something. There are situations where we are not provoked directly - and we must assess such situations - is there a reason why someone cross unwritten rules (perhaps due to old age and senility). But when people speak into our face and they make clear demands - that is them imposing boundaries. As codependents we would always assume they are correct and we must shut up. And breaking codependency comes down by breaking the hypnosis - and realizing there might be some alternative explanation and that this person may be mentally ill and parasite - thus their demands may not be reasonable and should not be accepted automatically as truth. And we may allow ourselves the option to defend our view and opinion. That is breaking the codependency. It is not about us feeling ashamed how we were in the past, nor it is about entering fight response, being rude and aggressive. Codependency is seeking the world and people as life threatening, being on hyperalert all the time, and especially is someone is telling us something that we should do or ashaming us for our mistakes. Breaking codependency is breaking self-censorship and realizing other people are not valid, good and superior just by them being and existing. We were programmed to see others as gods. So we may think we might be honest and authentic by fighting with them, as if we are gods ourselves. While the balance is somewhere in the middle - objective and with facts - what is the true and equal division of rights, what resources are people allowed to take and possess. Instead of codependent mindset of automatic giving up on our rights - the correct and normal way (that we were not taught in our childhood) is to make effort to make assessment what are options and to take into consideration that the other person is mentally ill, exploiter and psychopath - so therefore we must not be afraid of them to defend our views and opinions. They are not authority just for making demands and criticizing us. We were programmed to take other people criticism as ultimate truth, we never question it nor person behind it - is this person normal at all? We would not allow abnormal idiot and drug addict to run our bank account, would we? That's the mindset we need to have - not to mock ourselves how we looked in the past, or embracing dark shadow and employ aggressiveness automatically, without any danger really present.
We need to realize when we operate from cortex brain we will have plethora of options available to us to defend ourselves and to focus on our goals - not on pleasing and appeasing other people. We will remember things that are important to us and our task, not being obsessed ruminating over things important for other people.
We cannot operate from cortex brain if we are not aware what is going on - why we are codependent - and that other people used toxic shame in order to manipulate and control us in our childhood - and we repeat this pattern as adults - and we are not allowing ourselves options to defend ourselves and to focus on our goals and tasks that we need.
Also, when other people are rude and aggressive - we get serious. Humor is mature ego defense. Also, all we need to remind ourselves to be kind in any situation. Even when we alarm and alert other people. As codependents we do not know what boundaries are. It is about recognizing we have rights on certain things. We were not taught as children to have right to our opinion, to our feelings, to our goals and tasks. We were programmed to serve and to be slave to narcissists. Realizing we are free - is realizing there are boundaries which mean how far we can go in being free. That is strange and unknown concept to us, because we were never raised on love. As abusers, narcissists and exploiters dismiss idea of boundary for their gain, on the other side - we dismiss idea of boundary for giving up on anything so that others may have it, all that they want. Boundary starts with us allowing ourselves to talk, it starts with talking - alarming and alerting others and not expecting that they will change. They will probably be shocked and hurt because they will feel our boundary. The rest of argument should be like in a court - facts and objectivity, what rights I have and what are lies and misconceptions that the other side is trying to accuses us of.
Boundaries comes down to movie "12 angry men" (1957). No one tell us this. They speak about boundaries - but they never explain what it means. It is about voicing our rights. That is what codependents automatically forfeit without thinking and strategic analysis.
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Perhaps we were programmed in our childhood to think like this that we need nothing and to abolish our self worth. If so, it is not easy to realize what true self means and what it is by definition. And now as adults, we attract and live with parasites, vampires and exploiters who continue enforcing this unwritten rule that we need nothing and we don't have true self.
We can't have knowledge of our own worth if we mesh other people with ourselves. Paradox is that true self is reflection of other people. It is already meshed. It is like being born in Universe and we have to make sense of physical world by senses and interaction with other people. If we self isolate and if we focus on our true self - without knowledge and information from the other people we would not have definitions what "true" and what "self" is.
So true self implies true others as well. Being observed while we are observing others.
This means, if we do not recognize we might be surrounded by mentally ill people (narcissists, psychopaths, manipulators, abusers) whom we forfeit our self-worth by protecting it from them, we ourselves will suffer consequences, no matter how isolated and self-focused we choose to be. That's what makes codependency so complex and not easy to explain, that even mentors cannot understand it fully. Similar thing as concept of emotional dysregulation for therapist for complex trauma survivors. Many therapists simply do not understand fully what that is.
What I am saying is:
What is the use of true self if you cannot make money and pay your bills - without coming into contact with crazy and hostile people who will do everything to destroy your true self by toxic shaming?
We may pretend we are not bothered, but this is denial, one of many immature ego self defense mechanisms.
Life is not about other people exclusively, nor it is about our self as the exclusive paradigm - it is about interdependence. All religion, philosophers and psychologist will confirm this.
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The music is drowning out your lovely voice and makes it hard to focus on what you are saying.
Perhaps that is the point of video - not to be codependent on commentators demands :D
If you can't tell the difference between friendly feedback and a demand then maybe that's a good place to start your exploration.
Same to you, too. That is the point of video. Who is telling the truth, what is the truth and who has the right to arbitrate the truth?
Does the crowd has the right? The history showed us that masses are prone to be sheep and that conformity leads to Milgram Experiment.
And what if you are correct, can we travel back to past, do we have time machine and correct something that is over and done?
On topic, I personally had no problem with any music, in facts I did not notice it at all. Because I find the subject extremely interesting, thus I could only focus on the message being said.
This tells us that your friendly feedback is actually your boredom based on the feeling of entitlement that world evolves around your wishes and needs, and cognitive distortion that people change according to your perspective. And it is not friendly at all, it is only complaining and nagging, something that is toxic and unfriendly, actually. Now this is friendly feedback . it is constructive and revealing and offers a lot to explore.
13 other people had a similar experience to me so hopefully this was useful feedback to Aaron with improving his helpful and well-crafted videos. Everyone's different and will therefore experience things with some difference. I'm not sure why you felt the need to reply to my comment,
You were also rude because your comment has nothing to do with the message of video - it is about its audio design, something that is irrelevant to message being said. It is easy to complain and nag for unnecessary things, people like you who feel they have right to nag - you feel entitled. And then they feel hurt when they receive the exactly same message back to them, when karma hits them back in their face.
Codependents shut up and put up with this constant complaining and nagging from others.
See, likewise your comment is like loud background music too. I read comments to interact with the message, and you find time to chat and yack about the background music - and pollute comment chat with nagging and complaining about Aaron personal choice! That is very rude but you do not perceive it like that due to your hidden narcissism. You perceive other people rude, you are unable to see you have toxic behaviour traits.
We (codependents) need to reply back to people who nag and complain. As you see - they will back off when we talk with them and when they annoy us with constant non constructive criticism.
Now this is message that needs no background music.
---
(3.7.2021)
This is so important topic for mental health, yet so much ignored by mentors and public due to complexity.
Now my observation:
It (having intrusive thoughts) is not random (out of the blue) or happening sometimes in my case. I get specific intrusive PureOCD thoughts at specific time, from specific source - for example when I am in contact with rude, aggressive, criticizing people, usually in authority or some kind of relationship where they expect me to do some impossible, hard or complex task quickly, immediately and expecting that I will do it without blockages that are present there, and they belittle me, mock or yell to do this task. Then I also get intrusive thoughts after the event, relating to toxic shame and unfairness and aggression why I did not defend myself and thinking for example how to defend myself without losing a job?
Otherwise I do not experience problem with intrusive thoughts in that level that it hinders daily activities and life plans and events.
This is where it gets interesting when someone outside tells : Problem is that 'You just believe intrusive thoughts'.
What is the problem here - intrusive thoughts or external factor in the form of manipulator, someone who controls me - and consequently my thoughts by implanting inner critic inside, making me do things against my will - the task they want me to perform. Which gets more clearer - What is my task? If I am people pleaser, everything is my task. If I live in corrupt country where there is a lot of ambiguity, corporate fascists (no matter what managerial level) will exploit worker by instructing him that everything is his job. The same thing is found in violent relationship with physical abuser.
As you said:
"He believed it without noticing he was thinking this way".
That is the key.
"notice yourself as thinker the place where these thoughts happen".
We get hypnotized without realizing we are under hypnosis.
There is external factor, someone giving us instruction to activate our inner critic inside by employing toxic shame already present inside due to complex trauma (narcissist environment - mentally ill people- programming us in dysfunctional childhood to serve and be slaves to abusers, manipulators and narcissists).
Then our inner critic activates hypnosis - cognitive fusion.
It is not about our thought and naming it, other people who are aggressive also activate our inner process of intrusive thoughts. We might activate intrusive thoughts in order to preemptive strike, to be hyperalert and make adjustment ahead of time - so that someone might not get angry at us or mock us or criticize us.
And we act on inner critic - for example we smile to someone at work who makes fun of us and pretend they did not hurt us by their mocking while inside we would like to tell them off or walk away - because we have belief that we must be friendly with everyone and perhaps if we say something we will be labeled as snowflakes (toxic shaming) or over-sensitive (minimizing). So other people transfer their immature ego defense onto us - and we believe them, the same way as we believe our own intrusive thoughts.
So, intrusive words from other people (mentally ill people) are also having influence on us in the same way as our own intrusive thoughts. This is a part that mentors and victims are missing out. This external factor phenomena.
Mentors focus only on single person and his problem with intrusive thoughts, totally oblivious to environment and people around him. That is because official paradigm is that other people cannot make us do anything, it is us who are allowing it. That is false - because there are manipulators out there who trick us and exploit our security holes. We go by the book, we follow the rules - they are the ones who do not - but we expect them that they do, so we ignore their trespassing, which is immature ego defense: denial and minimizing.
And -
Why we act on it?
Why we believe our own intrusive commands and other people ones?
Cognitive defusions techniques help to regulate this - but they fail to meet requirement in specific, tough real world situations. That is why techniques do not work in long term, when we are faced with crisis, dilemma and ambiguity. And anyway, we forget what we learned in matter of 24 hours (Hermann Ebbinghaus The forgetting curve ), thus we get back to our default programming, ingrained in childhood - which is serving intrusive thoughts to satisfy the abusive authority.
Complex Trauma made us programmed to automatically act, to be on auto pilot. But why as adult, being exposed to so many helpful cognitive defusion and psychiatry tips and information - why we still act on it?
Because it is connected to Maslow needs. The more basic needs we want to meet, the stronger our action that we will act on our intrusive thoughts (internal element) and intrusive other people words (external element).
This is where Social psychology comes in.
Like when people say before you label yourself depressed or low self esteem - check before this labelling that you are not in fact surrounded by jerks.
I say - the solution lies in interdependence. It comes down to accept we will always be surrounded by psychopaths and exploiters and parasites - that is fact of life - life is not fair - and life is not a rose garden - and if we are in a situation where we cannot escape or avoid narcissists, abusers, exploiters, parasites, manipulators (due to finances, job, task, family, service or help they provide to us without alternatives) - we need to learn how to cooperate with monsters and people who are unwilling to cooperate. That is hard and painful. And that is the root cause of intrusive thoughts. It is easier to worry and go along with whatever people say do or act, without us rocking the boat - than to face reality, realize that we are captain of our ship and we can be leaders of our own body and interests. We were raised as kids in dysfunctional environment that we have no worth, we have no authority to stand on our feet, that we must rely on others who are better, more competent, stronger and more masculine than we will ever be. This is producing intrusive thoughts.
And solution is easy: remove resentment, when with other people - whenever there is conflict or some demand - be objective, stick to the facts and never self-censor yourself when you are being told to shut up by your inner critic or external source. Other people are not better than us, they might have different experience. If they put themselves in superiority complex - that is imbalance. And they are probably mentally ill.
---
I believed I had social anxiety for 20+ years, And I followed all advice given for social anxiety ( major ones: expose yourself and calm your physical symptoms).
Than finally I learned that was underneath it all - it was Complex Trauma.
Then I had opportunity what social anxiety really is - it is Trauma bonding. That is why social anxiety tips do not work. Tips are totally wrong.
Exposing is not major task, it is side effect after you realize that External referencing is running our lives. (we put our worth in other people hands).
Quieting physical symptoms is harmful -- because racing heart, trembling is trauma trapped inside our body and it activates when we are triggered (by people and events similar to our childhood trauma). Trauma needs to go out .wet dog will shake to get dry - that is the purpose of our trembling - to shake imposed fears outside us.
Trauma bonding also implies Fawning - the heart of social anxiety - and for some reason social anxiety mentors totally ignore CPTSD.
While on the other hand all trauma, PTSD, victims of narcissist - all mention isolation and withdrawal as main consequence.
---
I would go deeper in the matter, because it is critical to social anxiety, codependency, people pleasing and other mental blockages that are not present in everday talk.
As you said in your comment down below "when you know that you are the interpretor of words said to you, it becomes a tiny bit easier"
yep, that is it! who is this translator inside us? I realized we have installed "secret agents" inside us that get activated when we feel threatened. Those are inner critics. And they govern our thoughts and actions on auto pilot.
I noticed that I take things personally when surrounded by aggressive, rude people. I am not offended when someone jokes and when I see there is no threat - even if someone might appear unkind.
I learned this is Complex Trauma. In our dysfunctional childhood we have been programmed to be servants, to be slaves to narcissists, without us realizing this. That's what our inner critics are - instructions implanted inside. They play the crucial role in taking things personally. They explain and interpret our interactions. Then there is external factor, as you said people with malicious intents. Those are mentally ill people - inner critics that are in a form of a grown up person, but we do not see them like that. As programmed, we see and perceive any person who is unkind, aggressive - basically all rude people as our commanders. And whatever they say it is our ultimate truth, command and we obey them without question. That is trauma bonding, fawning response - and that is why we take things personally. There are invisible shackles that tie us to our oppressor - and oppressor is practically anyone who is loud and obnoxious, we were programmed as kids to serve any loud person who appears out of blue, who comes by or is stuck in our lives - he just needs to be obnoxious and we see him as our god. This all goes unconsciously and we are not aware of this hypnosis.
We are aware though of being trapped and feeling resentment for feeling scared and unable to talk back. That is what hurts us about taking things personally - it is automatic, it is hypnosis and we are driven like circus animals unable to do anything different other than serve, obey. We might break the look by fight response , temper tantrum - but in reality this leads to job loss and prison or mental institution.
So we learned to fawn when someone is rude. Fawning is the reason why we take things personally. It is codependency. If we were not feeling inferior, other people comments would not bother us, we would not react to them.
And it is not our fault - we feel bad because we were also programmed to blame ourselves, so toxic shame is way to control us. Someone ashame us and we do whatever they say.
In the same time we are aware of all this but we cannot help it. Someone is rude -we smile at them and we do not leave the situation because we were raised to believe other people are more intelligent and that we must be friendly and nice- otherwise we would be punished.
The way out of this loop is starting being aware what is going on - this is why videos like this, talking about this is very important and needed , for people to educate themselves. Without knowledge we live in dark and we cannot process emotions and we cannot label what we feel - we are like in ocean, thrown around as environmental circumstances allow.
Then it is about realizing we do have some options other than fawn or fight - there is middle way - to be kind yet not to self censor ourselves. It is about realizing other people who are rude are probably mentally ill - they are not our saviours, guides or commanders, and they are the last people in the world who would be taken seriously like that. We can be our own commander and captain of our life - instead of giving our helm into other people hands. They will not take care of us, they will exploit us, make fun of us and toss us around - because they are abnormal. And no one can take charge of other people, if we are not disabled, it is up to us to lead our lives, not others.
---
"Why would you want to embrace a horrible side to you this I don't understand"
It's been explained in video, but it may be hard to understand without background knowledge and life experience.
So the idea is that there are things you label as horrible. There are things and people in life that are truly horrible. But if you label something horrible - you are actually doing act of instability. You are creating mental illness. Due to its complexity, this is not talked about in general media, so many people are not aware of this unfortunately.
While - if people understood this concept, the road to mental healthy would be much easier.
You see, to divide things and people in absolute black and white is mental distortion. It was first observed by Freud (and Anna Freud too) - they called it Ego self defense. Splitting.
That is not reality. If you do splitting - you are creating illusion, a world not based on reality. You are building yourself a psychosis - because everything is life is neutral.
Yes, there are horrible people like Hitler or mass murderers - but they 1) had some positive traits, in their psychosis they were helping the world, they probably helped someone or raised charity - so their money perhaps someone from committing suicide - thus they are not absolutely black and negative. 2) The problem is that absolute evil people like Hitler &co. are mentally ill - thus if perhaps society recognized their illness on time and put them in some mental institution before their homicidal acting out took place, they would never become murderers- So it is not only entirely their fault, it is society's fault too. Perhaps you vote for Trump, republicans and conservatives because you think it is masculine to be toxic and to bully others, but you are actually supporting money being invested in cocaine, group orgies and corruption - not into mental health of nation. Therefore your support of wrong laws is problem here, due to hidden butterfly effect and by having hidden and unrecognized ego self defenses you are creating horrible people 3) evil people would not be evil if they had correct therapy or restrictions in mental health institution. Therefore - They are not evil - their brain is wired wrongly. They are not evil in their hair, in their organs, in their shoes, in their choice what to watch on TV - they are evil in their actions. We have to separate emotions from facts and paradox is we can do this only if we accept integration of our own being as whole (realizing that we should not label things and people as black or white - yet to employ fuzzy logic) and outer facts. It is like believing in yourself but not to the point to become narcissist.
4) Accepting inner shadow means to normalize everything - to see reality as much as objective as we can. This means to tolerate things and people we find irritating - but in reality there are not objective reason to hate them other than our trauma or our false beliefs.
That is the point of inner shadow - that we allow plurality in everything . in our thoughts, in our actions and in our decisions. Instead of being stuck in one sided mentality - as we saw, communism fell because of not allowing plurality and hanging on to splitting.
Instability with time leads to self destruction, that is why it is unstable.
The more we are able to allow possibilities and alternatives - the more healthier we will be. That is the point of video and the message about embracing horrible side.
We cannot choose our coworkers, our parents, our bosses - so the only way out is to integrate them - try to cooperate with people who are unwilling to cooperate. And without fawning to them and trauma bonding with them - the only way to make this possible is to put ourselves in their shoes and try to reach agreement, certain points where we can meet in the middle point with horrible and evil people out there.
Interdependence is the highest level of social achievement. Allegory of long spoons. So the first step is accepting and tolerating stinky, ugly and disgusting parts of people and stuff that we need to encounter in our lives. We can't do that if we do not do the same process with ourselves and our own dark parts that we discarded and decided not to look at or deal with them. If we look again, we might find some good and usable part of it that we can use, and that actually was a missing puzzle that we were searching all the time in other sources.
---
- most of my life I had no idea about the existence of this translator inside us, which meant taking a lot of unfair hurtful comments very personally. Yeah, that is the hurt and pain, but I'm ok really now. :)
I write blog, so I tend to write long comments when the subject is super interesting and I tend to expose dark parts, that may seem dramatic, sorry for this (it goes along with territory hehe).
I was just surprised about your comment about translator, that you mentioned it, incidentally day after I realized this. that is mind blowing synchronicity.
I see this translator concept as huge discovery. It is the key to having option where I had none before. It is like getting my vehicle or my own boat - where before I had none.
Because, I noticed when someone is rude, I take on a persona and I do not allow myself any option than following certain mold, scenario and orders, implanted from before. So I want to scream or I want to talk back, I want to defend myself - but this translator comes up and he - does nothing - he just smiles to people even when they are hurtful and unfair and they deserve to be alarmed.
Likewise, this translator makes me believe that other people are normal and healthy and I must obey and follow them.
And it is like hypnosis because there is persona inside me that see what is going on but it is too shy, too scared to stand up for myself. Because I have interpreter inside me that censor data - as if in communist state - not allowing to see all things and not to take all things in consideration - only things related to hyper security and not feeling the pain.
---
"Accepting such behavior society deems toxic is not going to help improve society. "
I see - This is the central issue that unables you to accept dark shadow.
You think it is about accepting totally and welcoming and becoming and submitting to evil. It is not. It is about willing to light dark areas and be willing to observe it. To feel the pain instead of avoiding things that scare you or are too painful for you. And they are painful because you discarded dark parts that would give you shield protection and energy to endure the pain.
Let's try like this:
"Unless you learn to face your own shadows, you will continue to see them in others, because the world outside of you is only a reflection of the world inside you".
This quote is straightforward and very clear.
No one is talking accepting rape or abuse as law and something as normal. But it is rather -are you a sheep? Conformity can lead people to become murderers. Check out Milgram Experiment or The Nuremberg trials. Your fear from violence becoming public norm if you decide to accept your dark shadow means your dark parts are severed. That is unhealthy. This allows you mentality of obedience - that your own inner critic and other people make choice instead of you against your will. For example,
Someone might accuse you of being rapist in order to ashame you and he will control you, because this is something you are afraid being identified with.
Or these quotes are also quite revealing about inner shadow:
'Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.'
Carl Jung.
Also, your choice of making splitting - that you clearly want to separate good and bad, instead of accepting concept of dualism or yin-yang leads you to believe yourself a superman subconsciously. Quote is:
"Man is, on the whole less good than he imagines himself or wants to be."
Carl Jung.
You were programmed to see yourself as god and you are not aware of this. This is very unhealthy and it will lead to many relationship problems in your life, sooner or later - no matter how you try to cover it up. Because none of us are perfect. Striving for perfectionism is self-sabotage and psychosis. And when you think like this, anyone can control you by pointing out your mistakes, because you will feel deep toxic shame when someone pinpoints them. The only way out is that you accept errors as regular part of life.
You of course will do everything to prevent errors - and you will be more successful in preventing them once you accept them and when there is no pressure when they do happen.
'What you resist- persist'. 'We become what we hate.'
Inner shadow is something like reverse psychology - you actually attain your goal of separating good and bad by paradoxically - accepting it.
--
(8-7-2021)
"Drop safety behaviour, then we are more authentic"
whoa! i like this tip, thank you!
However,
Low self worth / distorted self view is only one part of social anxiety. The other half are other people, I call it "external factor". And this is often ignored by mentors and targets unfortunately. Social anxiety is extensive fear of criticism, horrible expectation of possible attack from other people and their finger-pointing (mocking and shaming) as form of rejection when we make mistake.
Mistakes are natural and normal in social settings but we see them as life threatening event.
External factor is paradox and it appears as double binding - good example for this is with the second tip: "We ask our anxiety which is credible as car salesman. Shift focus outward."
The core problem is with social anxiety is that in social settings (due to complex trauma - dysfunctional programming in childhood) we feel like we float in the space. We enter into social situation and we are like Sandra Bullock in Gravity scene where she floats in space without ability to hold onto anything. And this is what causes panic and uncomfortable physical symptoms. Like astronaut in space without safety cord - we erratically move around and try to make sense of what is going on. So we clutch on levelers and things we can grab onto - that is our only focus in social settings and we are not even aware of this going on! This abnormal focus is normal for us and something that is usual and always happened in our lives.
This is connected with external factor - with the other people - because we were not learned in our childhood what is love - so we never learned we have self worth - we were programmed to please our abusers and focus on their approval first, without having our needs and opinions. While "normal" kids learned how to satisfy their Maslow pyramid of needs by trusting their gut, intuition and experience - we were taught in childhood the needs we need to look after is only after our narcissistic environment.
So in social settings, we hang onto other people as our guide, as our approval, as our commanders, as our instructors and mentors. We were programmed to think like that, it goes unconscious and we are totally unaware. It is hypnosis. We run the code that was implemented in our system.
So what happens when external factor - other people - are mentally ill, manipulators and narcissists, borderline and have ill intentions (to make things worse, social anxiety people are kind, empathic, normal and socially oriented follow the unwritten social rules - we attract jerks like moth to a flame).
So this keeps us stuck in social anxiety loop.
As you said - we ask our anxiety for explanation and processing of what happened. But we also ask our environment (people), external factor - but this is very dangerous, since it leads to external referencing. To shift focus outward is something that we already do. But we are scared to talk and ask for other people opinion so we mindread, as we learned in our dysfunctional childhood, and other immature ego defenses. We expect what other would like us to do and we act on it. We soon find that this is impossible because many people means many wishes - so this is confusing, how to please everyone - it is impossible mission, yet we were programmed in our childhood to be codependent.
Instead, we should base our opinions on our own self worth, something we have never learned or realized it exists inside us. This is counterintuitive to us, because as we were growing up, we were repeatedly told, probably through physical abuse, that our opinions are wrong, and we were selfish if we expressed how we felt or what we wanted - and instead all our focus should be on other people.
This is what makes social anxiety complex. Other people should be as views as plethora of opinions available to consider (not to obey) that we may or may not take into consideration. It is like allowing ourselves to have democracy in our head - that is mental health. Having only our own opinion , or having only other people opinion as ultimate truth is unhealthy.
That is why "Shift focus outward." is confusing in social anxiety. It would be double binding - if we listen to our anxiety only, or of we take advice, opinions and statements from others as our guide. We lack the third element in this - we lack our ego in this. Anxiety is both id and super-ego for social anxiety sufferers, because we were told in our childhood that ego is dangerous, and we must give up on it , at the expense of pleasing and focusing upon our narcissistic caretaker(s).
So developing our own self worth and trust in ourselves would be good thing in dealing with social anxiety.
That is why I love the first tip - we have developed safety mechanism to put trust in other people. So we shut up and we self censor ourselves. We should drop our safety mechanism as avoiding conflict, and see what happens, as test. So we should instead alert other people when they are hurting us, even though some mentally unstable people scare us into silence by shouting at us and their acts of violence serve as reaction to our opinion and mocking to make us subservient and to obey them. Problem is that we do not recognize loud and obnoxious people as mentally ill - because this is what we have grown up with in our childhood as norm, as a standard. So we accept it and this hinders our social connections - we attract narcissists and psychopaths. Our defense mechanism in shape of toxic agreeableness keeps social anxiety alive - since we hide, run away or isolate or shut up at the first sign of mocking, bullying and any kind of negative criticism no matter how slight - because this is what we were trained in our childhood - to be silent slaves to abusers, unkind people - no matter who they are, even total strangers.
Truth is narcissists have narcissistic injury - they will back off and discard you when you are honest and authentic - and social anxiety sufferers never learned this - because they were raised by narcissist - so as adults we attract new narcissists in our lives just by being normal, kind, silent and respectful, agreeable - everything that society wants society to be in order to get along and to be interdependent. However this noble etiquette is harming people with social anxiety, it makes us easy victims to people who do not want peace and love and who break unwritten social rules that we hang on so much onto. They take advantage of us being kind and calm, they use our kindness, our trying to be normal human being against us.
Unless we are aware of this, we will feel extreme panic in protecting our rights, because we were programmed into social phobia, trauma bonding and fawning as response to stress.
We are unable to see that we follow the unwritten social rules, that we go by the book, we do all socially norms - but we fail to recognize there are people out there who cross unwritten social rules, and that scare us - because it is confusing situation for us. We were programmed to step on the gas and to break in the same time: we were learned to be obedient, nice, people pleasers - in order to gain respect, love and support from other people - while as adults, this does not work. The hypnosis in childhood was aimed to please our narcissistic psychopath, whilst in our adulthood - it is expected from us to be adult, to have initiatives and to take care of ourselves. Other "normal" people will find us irritating due to our social anxiety issue, while psychopaths will find us as excellent target for their narcissistic supply, and also despise us in the same time, labeling us as weak and easy target for their agenda. In any case, social connection will be painful due to our growing up with programming by unrecognized mentally ill person.
This is what mentors and targets overlook - and this is why social anxiety never fully goes away.
The path to freedom for social anxiety sufferers is in growing up - to continue to grow - at the point where we were pruned too short in our childhood. We never competed Vygotsky & Piaget's stages of growing up.
We need be a person who has its self worth - upon we can act (take initiatives and fulfill our own goals for our sake, not others), go into arguments and defend against abusers, bullies and jerks - instead of fawning to them. Quick fix tips like this will help us on our journey.
"Get started and your confidence will catch up. "
We need to know that outside of our comfort zone we will feel like astronaut in space without safety cord - and that is normal. That is what "normal" kids went through in their childhood but we never had chance to complete this task in our abusive traumatic childhood. We need to learn thus that making mistakes is normal when you do something for the first time - and people with social anxiety and avoidance - any social situation is for the first time - because we were learned wrong coping mechanism and this keep us floating in the space and hanging on to toxic people.
Instead - the path to "normality" and "sanity" is to realize we have inside capacity to activate our inner person who will discern what we like, what we dislike and what is the best choice - even if wrong or mistake. That other people out there are only for reference, not as ultimate truth or guidance for our task and goals that our inner person will choose with time. But also knowing that we might be wrong and it is ok to admit being wrong, at fault, our errors - and correct us once someone points the errors - without taking it personally. We take it personally because as kids we learned we don't have self worth persona inside us, and that our worth are other people. This caused social anxiety haywire electric shock and left our car clutch on all the time, causing us to stutter and struggle in social settings - while other people drive their cars seemingly effortlessly.
---
stoicism seemed like perfect answer to any hardship.... until I've read that stoicism is an immature ego defense mechanism really. IT is a form of denial - you don't actually work on the issue, you just pretend it is not there, so this can lead to delusions and issues that fester with time.
Ramani said the great point - immune people quit their job, they sleep at hotel, or shrug it off. On the other hand enduring cause internal damage over time - low self esteem for example. And these people are so good at manipulating and gaslighting - if you live in denial, you let them hurt you, by doing nothing and keeping quiet.
Stoicism would make sense if you mix it with action, not having fears to do what you are not being afraid to do what needs to be done - and then be stoic about it. For example ending up being homeless after you leave shelter littered with narcissists, teenagers peeing on you, and begging for food - and being stoic about this,,, then stoicism make sense. But then question arises - is it healthy, sane and good to live like that?
---
(9.7.2021)
Trauma bonding is not only for romantic, intimate relationships, it is not exclusively a tango between 2 people.
In my case it is for any authority figure, or anyone who appears superior to me, or acts aggressively or display any negative emotions such as irritation - so it is almost all people. So it is not necessary with diagnosed narcissist. It can be any difficult person who nags all the time, mocks your mistakes, or refuse to cooperate yet due to any reason you must be in contact with them (due to family, job, task, resource, provide any Maslow basic need - without alternative sources available).
Needless to say, it is living hell. Just imagine how much social interactions are painful, hurtful and scary with this hypnosis to automatically serve/obey other people in your head and connect with them with invisible shackles. You are aware it is unhealthy but you can't help it because other people emotions are super influencing and invasive and they trap you by invisible connection cord. This means no boundaries at all. Your own weapon is to isolate and withdraw as much as you can due to finances, obligations and given/basic tasks. Withdrawal can be mental if you cannot run away physically - by shutting up, self censorship and extreme focus/monitoring other people reactions, words and actions as if whatever they will do next is a life threatening.
I think behind social anxiety/extreme avoidance is trauma bonding, and this is why official and available advice for social anxiety is not working - mentors do not address fawning, external reference and trauma as its major parts.
---
I learned that my codependency is part of trauma bonding and fawning response to any trigger.
"You cant take responsibility for something you don't have control over. "
This is where it gets complex. I call this phenomena "external factor". There are people out there who do not play by the book and who are not following unwritten social rules. Also, some people like me were taught wrong messages in the childhood and we were programmed to be slaves and to serve other people, so now it is automatic and we do not know what self worth is, instead we only know external referencing - which attracts narcissists and manipulators, psychopaths - they see we do not react to their toxic shame and they gladly feed of our need for approval.
So simply to detach and not fix other people is counterintuitive for people who were raised as codependents. We were programmed that worrying and stressing over other people problem is love and if we do not - something bad will happen or it means I feel extreme toxic shame.
Without recognizing external factor as significant influence over our codependency we won't be able to discern other people. It means, some people are mentally ill - this is very hard message to grasp for codependents grown up with complex trauma because it goes against everything we were hypnotized into. Without knowing this, in time we will fall back to default thinking that we are inferior and any other loud, obnoxious, aggressive and violent person is superior - just for being able to yell and scream at others. There is also cultural factor, whereas for example poor and corrupt countries in the East consider toxic masculinity as norm and standard - which in its basis means we must take responsibility for something we don't have control over - because mentally ill people impose this belief through rudeness, violence, mocking and things like perfectionism, laughing and belittling you for your mistakes- toxic shame for doing something wrong. So this is also social problem, too. It is being in situation where you need something from others who are mentally ill and you have no alternative to achieve it (finances, shelter, tasks, goal, help, service). Fawning is left as the only way that you can get basic Maslow needs met surrounded by crazy manipulative exploiters. Because it this system of subordination is in our head programmed in our childhood, and because we naturally draw narcissists into our lives due to us being open, friendly, calm, normal - going by the book, obeying the law and unwritten social standards. While they do not obey and they do not respect social norms.
So the best tip for codependency would be to realize we invite hostile people in our lives - by keeping silent, self censoring ourselves and by social pressure - if we respond to bully, other people are cowards, too and they will not get into confrontation with bully but tell you that you are over sensitive if you react to abuse, mocking and unfair criticism. But do it anyway. We have to speak up. Our silence and not reacting due to toxic conditioning, keeps codependency alive.
---
" Everything is emergency, why me, ship sinks!"
Whoa, It never occurred to me to connect codependency with catastrophizing, but yeah it is trauma response, it is survival technique. And it feels like it is my fault and my responsibility - whatever emergency or something that appears as emergency.
No wonder I attract narcissist, they just love to feast over person who is voluntarily fix and fawn to anyone no matter how small or insignificant other people need there is. And toxic people - I call it external factor - makes it difficult because through toxic shame and mocking our mistakes, they will make us believe it is our responsibility and emergency. And due to fawning I do not pause, because the fear and shame and the pain of embarrassment and guilt is so overwhelming that I feel urgency to act immediately - if nothing at least to appear subordinate, submissive and willing to serve and obey. They take our disorder and pull us by strings, as if we are dolls - but we allow it because we do not say anything, we do not move away, we do not cut contact, we do not alarm and alert, we do not say no.
And definitely yes, in my case, I was programmed in childhood to turn every loud and obnoxious person request into problem solving and personal responsibility. I would get verbally and physically assaulted if I protested.
And to make it complex, I learned to appear calm on the outside while I felt this unrecognized emotion inside - that I now realize it is a feeling of emergency. It is zero to 100 reaction - but only in my thoughts, I try very hard no to be hysterical outside - because I was programmed not to show any emotion that resembles irritation. So this comes out as fear inside, that I subdue with fawning. I had hard time to explain this feeling inside to my therapist, I could not put it into words, because it was paradoxical - I would feel inside as reaction like there is life threatening situation - while in reality it was not, and on the outside I would appear very calm and cool - while inside I would feel extremely toxic shame and inner critic belittling me for being in such situations, for saying something, for not saying something... I know this is connected to social anxiety disorder, too.
Only last year I found out that I over-react, but I did not connect it to codependency until your video message. I find out the solution through 3 steps - reaction - stop and gather as many information possible before action - act on all things considered instead of impulsive action.
I thought it is normal to make drama out of everything because my environment, people around me are very nervous. I remember as kid I made promise to myself that I will never be rude, curse, be violent or yell and scream to others because people around me were like that. And this promise to myself render me useless later on in life, made me impossible to use some non-standard methods to fight off and ward off bullies and exploiters out there - because I would be calm and friendly and open on force, no matter what treatment. I would smile back to rude and obnoxious people even if they would mock me for my fashion or grooming choice for example. Or if someone yells and screams, I would not have tools to warn and alert them to stop it. It is very hard even now to be honest and authentic. And if I would talk about this stuff with people , they would explain to me that I was oversensitive and I should toughen up - to be even more stoic and to shut up to people when they are crossing their boundaries... what a mess.
To break it down - me as codependent I would feel like zero to 100 at things that trigger me, trauma response (someone being rude, expressing their need, I see it as emergency), while in the same time my outer defensive reaction would be around 10 from 100 as total (very calm and friendly, open and smiley as reaction to crisis) and my outer fixing problem response would be very high...
and that is wrong. The healthier response, how other "normal" people react is:
they feel within parameters - if something that happens is small event - that they are able to see it objectively and stay 20 do 100, while their defensive reaction is much higher - close to 100 -- they are able to say no & they do not smile or force friendliness out if person is rude and aggressive and not respectful, and their outer fixing response would match objective reality - if there is no contractual obligations, they would walk away if person is still rude even if they alarm them.
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"Utility of attempting to live in truth, aiming at highest ideal against catastrophe and uncertainty of life."
This is ok, sound advice and normal and it works.... -->>in normal environment and with mentally sane people. His Hell's angels landlord left because he was not psychopath, narcissist, abuser, manipulator and exploiter. He might be going through stages that resemble sociopath, alcohol abuse and fighting - but his wife tragically died, so he is not the model of evil.
And this is what even most brilliant mentors keep on neglecting, denying and are totally unaware - I call it external factor. There are true evil people out there. It is hard to grasp this fact to normal people and we judge the world and people according to our perceptions and our understanding and experience. So it is easy to dismiss the evil people.
Because...simply because you know what is truth, what is the best - that doesn't mean that
1) other people know the rules
2) that other people will follow any rules.
So...what happens when you respond to uncertainty and catastrophe of life with truth and ideal? You get swindled, duped, exploited. Because the truly evil people (unlike given example of Hell's angel dude) they do not follow social norms, they do not follow unwritten social rules and they test how far they can get away with exploiting, manipulating and abuse. So while we are busy being angels and speak truth and holding our ideals - these evil people use exactly our ideals against ourselves.
The best example is Straw Dogs (1971) with Dustin Hoffman.
The point I am making that phantom of liberty, false hope are not help nor healthy. Bitter truth is that we may do everything perfect and right - and still fail and be wrong. What we need is to be prepared for argument, conflict and to respond to evil people - in truth. If we contemplate what is ideal - we get into trap that we should shut up and be fair and listen to mentally ill people, aggressive dudes and not for example walk away from them and cut contact if possible.
Some people - evil people - do not deserve to be treated with truth nor ideal - because they will use any information given to them against us. Some people do not want to cooperate. Some people only want to win, only want to be the way they wish. And not truth and ideal can fight mentally illness as such. It only hurts ourselves.
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"to cut them out of your life "
Yeah, thank you,, I know, that is only sane thing to do...
but what troubles me personally are situations where you cannot cut them off. Due to job, family, task, resources, finances... and you must be in contact with such people.
I am seeking how to find resilience against such people when you must be in contact with them,,,
For the past year I explored this thing that bothered me and I have found out there is complex trauma making me susceptible to abusive people - I go into fawn response (codependency) and I've discovered that trauma bonding is behind it - I put invisible shackles around loud and obnoxious people. There is also external referencing concept - where in childhood I have not learned to develop self worth, so I seek approval, happiness and guidance exclusively in other people. Since this is very painful (imagine how hurtful is to feel what other people feel and try to fix it) - lead me to social anxiety and withdraw for many decades - which kept me away from learning how to develop resilience to loud and obnoxious and violent people.
What I would like to do is to not being afraid of those people, so I can have more jobs available that I otherwise turn down,, and so I stay off from life due to this irrational fear from aggressive and critical people. I am aware that emotional bullies sniff out my fears and I attract them like moth to a flame, because I am super easy target for their mentally ill drive to hurt other people in order for them to feel good about themselves.
I realized that as a child I learned to fawn to appease others, so I shut up and do not react when they cross their boundaries which is very detrimental choice for my well being and confidence.
For many years I thought it was because of social anxiety, but I've learned that it was CPTSD.
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The definition of stoicism is:
"the endurance of pain or hardship without the display of feelings and without complaint."
That sounds ok, normal and sane. In sane and healthy environment. But what happens when you are stuck with mentally ill person who is in authority and exploit you, goes against social standards and do not follow unwritten social rules? Imagine that you cannot leave this person due to job, finances, need, resources, family. What happens next is that this person will exploit your noble stoicism against you. They will increase the pain and hardship and you not displaying any feelings or complaint they will interpret as your weakness and approval for their mentally ill agenda.
I call this external factor phenomena, and it is often overlooked by mentors and targets. I think it is not carefully explored area yet and it allows suffering, because people are given excellent and well meaning advice for mentally healthy and sane people - but what happens when the other side is not sane nor healthy?
I have noticed that this ignorance happens because
1) normal and healthy people see the world through their soul and experience - and since they are unable to grasp the evil, they reject this idea very quickly, both by logic and from subconsciousness. We can logically admit there are Manson people out there, but very soon we will go back to our default view and forget external factor concept - which leaves us open for manipulation, exploitation and gaslighting.
2) normal and healthy people are wired to normal and healthy values, we are given solid and healthy messages from our childhood from media, environment and parents: to cooperate, to have friends and build friendships, to be interdependent as highest achievement, to be open, friendly, happy, cool, calm and basically normal balanced human being. Unfortunately these ideals are easily exploited by toxic, evil people who are not wired for these values, but only for narcissism (exploitation and hurting others for their agenda).
I thought about this phenomena very much, and I've come up with idea that we are actually hypnotized into being good.
We (normal, kind, good people who are sociable and do not wish to cause harm to others) are overflowed and overloaded by information and programming to be good so much, to such extent - that it is causing us to be porous to being exploited and manipulated - even in cases when we are instructed how to deal with difficult people, for example. So when someone is rude, we most probably will respond by the book - listen to them, perhaps even tell the truth - and this will work if the other person is klutz (like Kramer character from Seinfeld) - but this is not working with external factor, with truly evil people out there.
In order to deal with truly evil people we must..accept our inner shadow. The parts that we cut off from ourselves in order to be good person.
This means, in extreme cases, we need to employ some methods that are not stoic. That are not good. That are not kind. Unless we are not aware of external factor phenomena, even if we react aggressively to aggressive people - we would feel guilty and such people use toxic shaming as tool to control and manipulate us, and this is where stoicism fails. Stoicism tells us that in uncomfortable situation - you should endure it. And that is fine, nothing wrong with that. Unless you have complex trauma from childhood and enduring erodes your fragile confidence and makes your inner critic run havoc inside by belittling yourself for not taking any action. You say the courage and justice is part of stoicism - yet due to evil people - that hurt us very early on when we were defenseless, programmed us onto cowardice and accepting injustice as norm.
What I am saying is in 20% of cases, stoicism, and any noble idea out there available from human history - will not work. The big issue is that due to certain predispositions such as complex trauma we are unable to identify those 20%.
This complex problem was bothering me, but I found out the solution - it is fuzzy logic.
This concept tells us that we may hold noble concepts such as stoicism as our ideal and a way to deal and manage life - nothing wrong with that, but in the same time to have in mind that there are certain situation where we can allow ourselves to employ other, controversial techniques that are not noble. In order to deal with chaos - external factor who disregards any rules.
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10.7-2021
"Solving a problem can also means cutting a toxic person out of your life."
Yet,
What you do when you cannot cut toxic person in your life?
What happens when you are forced to live with mentally ill person that is making your life hard, miserable and difficult - and due to double binding whatever you do is doomed at the start?
Imagine it like being astronaut thrown in space. Without safety cord and you float around the destroyed ISS, trying to grab onto things - like Sandra Bullock in Gravity (2014). You are left to your intellect to fight harsh environment. What you do in such situation where you cannot get back to Earth at whim?
Or:
imagine having shipwreck and you are now floating in ocean, you might have some debris enough to grab and hold on to it to keep your head above the water. You are left to environment that throws you back and forth. And you cannot go back to your hotel at the whim. What now?
From stoic perspective, justice, courage, temperance and wisdom will not help you much. And unlike space or ocean, living with narcissists will use and exploit your sense of justice against you. They will manipulate you to diminish your courage. They sniff out how to destroy your temperance, your patience and calmness. And they gaslight you to be hyper-alert and in the stress amygdala state where cortex is not working, thus you are unable to access wisdom depository.
You say that I over-complicating it, but unfortunately this reality is pretty much everyday thing for many people out there who live with narcissist(s) and try to survive. And this is the subject of this video anyway.
I would rather say that you are over-simplifying it, and giving quick and easy advice is giving additional pain to targets of mentally ill people.
And anyway, I do believe in stoicism, it just needs to be upgraded to fit in the concept of "toxic" people - a paradox element.
And the paradox is that there surprisingly are no toxic people at all. Because as you said from stoic perspective, if you start to think about how to solve mentally ill people tasks and puzzles that they give you to solve - with time in process you become toxic yourself, because it is Sissyphus task - it can never be solved.
What you keep on refusing to understand and grasp is that there are evil people out there. And I perfectly understand that, you were raised in normal, warm, healthy environment and you cannot grasp the void and chaos that exists out there. You cannot admit it that there is entity out there that can destroy your perfect and rock solid walls (stoicism being a brick in that defensive wall) because it would cause you to feel anxiety, fear and instability which is not comfortable. The void is like Borg in Star Trek.
Unfortunately, this unawareness of evil makes you (and stoicism) prone to being exploited by evil.
In retrospective, narcissists also cannot fact the void, pain and hurt from their dysfunctional childhoods, so they also do everything to turn away from the void - by engaging into toxic behaviour (abusing others for their energy, distraction and fun).
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I find Maslow needs extremely interesting and for (possible trauma) reason, I find it very hard to implement and grasp.
Anyhow, being thirsty as basic need explains what it is so fascinating about Titanic orchestra playing until the last moment, until they went d(r)own with the ship.
Yeah, self-expression is the way to heal trauma - this is why narcissists try so hard to shut us up, and teach us to self-censor ourselves - I had hard issue with this, I would always be silent to anyone loud or obnoxious, and I realized watching Pump up the volume (1993) that..when everything is taken in consideration - that we should try to talk.
hehe, I also do not like swearing but I do not mind. I don't like swearing because it is connected to my childhood trauma, every mistake was covered with curses from narcissistic rage to shut me up. So now it is my trigger which sucks because cursing became social norm in this century. I understand that trying to change other people (telling them/ordering them to stop or do something) is cognitive distortion and unrealistic, and it is toxic to modify others.
Mel Robbins also swore a lot in the past videos, but she stopped, a lot of people complained about it. Swearing helps a lot to feel good, but unfortunately narcissists use it (as anything else) to abuse others.
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It is difficult concept to understand, I tried to understand it for years, I've read many books - I knew that I have serious dependent issues - all until I discovered CPTSD and trauma bonding. Then few days ago I found a perfect example.
IT is like you have driving phobia, but you force yourself to drive the car anyway. So narcissist is with you in the car and he is complaining and ordering you where to go. And in some new street or new complex when you drive in - you do not know where to stop, where is the best place to park. So instead of doing what other "healthy" and "normal" people would do - scan the place and find the place to park, instead of this, I ask for narcissist what to do and I feel panic because I am in unfamiliar place and I do not trust myself that I am able to cope, manage and find the best answer - so I rely on narcissist (or anyone other than myself) to tell me what to do. And very usual, narcissist is panicky person who goes into narcissistic rage and ashame me for this incapacity to cope with new situation.
So the way out is as you said:
"Own that we are making a choice"
We can make our own choice. And it might be wrong, it might be error. The problem are people who have narcissist beside them pointing out the mistake and ashaming me for that mistake, this shaming is keeping the codependency cycle - making me believe I am unable to make choices and unable to solve puzzles of life. Which is not true.
From my driving analogy example, it is easily seen why codependency is addictive, it is how we drive around - 1) we don't believe we are capable on living our life without someone's advice (I was programmed in childhood that my choices are wrong and narcissist's are the correct ones) 2) since we don't believe we are capable, every mistake hurts (in my childhood every mistake was sojourned with physical or verbal abuse and toxic shaming) 3) we trust other people are more capable, more intelligent, better and superior, so this is also inferiority issue.
"Make sure you are choosing what the life that you want to be choosing, a lot of this is unconscious – make it conscious, and now we have choice."
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(11-7-2021)
"You're saying there's no right answer to anything and that nothing OUGHT to happen."
This is hard to explain in You tube commentary section, but I'll try anyway, again.
There is no right answer - this is objective statement. However, human mind cannot exists in ambiguity. It needs physical, it needs grounding. So we invent it in order to have standpoints, beliefs, perceptions. We use knowledge from our childhood, our environment, our media and books and experience to build walls, defenses and our ground. So the right answer is the one that allows us to function normally - so that we do not feel ambiguity: fears, anxiety, panic, depression, helplessness. That is why you feel irritated when I shake your perception by telling your that there is not right or wrong, that shaking phenomena is called cognitive dissonance.
The right perception would be the one that allow us to function without anxiety and fears. Søren Kierkegaard said: “Anxiety is the dizziness of freedom.”
So, the right and correct perception would be to feel anxiety, fears and phobias - but due to the laws of Earth, these feelings are not functional for us humans. They were not designed for us. They belong to our creator (or whatever entity designed all this). So we have to adapt. Our task is to feel grounded and functional - this is what we went through in our childhoods to build upon.
Some of us went through abuse (dysfunctional parenting) and because of complex trauma, we did not learn "normal" things such as love and self worth and connection with other people in the right manner. And then we adapt crude, one sided perceptions and beliefs that cause us fears and anxiety - which means they give us freedom enough to function and to make sense of the world. Such mindset is filled with thinking errors and cognitive distortions. Because true freedom is available to God, or higher being, not for us humans. We were made to obey certain unwritten social rules in order to have happy lives and to live in cooperation with other people - otherwise you will end up either in jail or in mental institution.
Do you see now that there is no right answer and yet paradoxically there is the right answer?
This paradox and unresolved problem is called in philosophy as "Problem of criterion":
'One must therefore provide a justification for the justification. That justification itself requires justification, and the questioning continues interminably.
The conclusion is that no one can truly have knowledge of anything, since it is, due to this infinite regression, impossible to satisfy the justification element.'
In real life - tell yourself, do you feel happy by your thoughts and perceptions, do you feel satisfied when someone tells you something that you do not accept? If you are "normal", "balanced" and "healthy" in your head - you would feel either neutral or indifferent - because you would not feel threatened as if your life is threatened, and you would talk normally and calmly and collectedly, as adult and clear the argument and conflict. Of course, this is under condition if the other person is not hysterical.
In ancient China they called this "right" way how to live as "The allegory of the long spoons". In psychiatry they call this interdependence, and Glasser describe this as Controlling Habits (Blaming, Criticizing, Complaining, Nagging, Rewarding to Control, Threatening) and Connecting Habits (Listening, Supporting, Encouraging, Negotiating, Respecting, Accepting, Trusting).
Can you recognize your attitude of irritation in Controlling habits list? From this perspective, there is right and wrong answer existing in the same time (similar to double slit experiment) - it depends who observe it. The wrong answer is not your beliefs and perceptions - but rather your unwillingness to listen and negotiate, to listen and accept.
Also - ask yourself honestly - does your belief and perceptions about life (or about anything else) - does they help you? Do you feel happy? Do you feel satisfied? Do they help you to find meaning in life? Do they allow you to function? Do they make you feel safe when you wake up in the morning? Or do they block you, control you, do not allow you to see outside of tunnel vision?
To make things complex - if you are evil person and if you enjoy hurting other people - than of course -- you are right. From that perception, I am totally wrong and I am telling you totally wrong things that you should not consider at all because they are exactly the opposite of your destiny and destination. You do not need democracy, you decided to build dictatorship in your head. So, you belong to be unhappy and to live in pain if you truly believe in it as your guide and correct way. You will probably solve finances and resources through crime, parasiting from others, rape and abuse of others. When you die, your probably next destination will be Hell because this is your free choice.
The question is - do you want that? Is that your free choice or is it conditioning by poor parenting, dysfunctional environment, lack of education and lack of love? As you said, if you were honest, you were appalled by child abuse, so I guess your choice is not evil/Glasser's Controlling Habits.
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"Response: Is evil BAD or NEUTRAL? "
I see it like this: Yin and Yang. If you don't have shadow, if you have only one part - and having this one part will cause imbalance.
This is the universal law, I did not invent this. Those are the rules we were thrown into when we were born on this planet.
Kubrick tried to explain this phenomena of evil in his movie A Clockwork Orange (1971).
He showed us that person who is "cleaned" from evil - will become too much obeying - too sterile - and then evil can control you and abuse you. So the answer is in the balance. Finding the perfect balance.
So instead of your pouting and grudge and negation of life - perhaps you could seek this out and search for balance - and see how it works, does life make sense and is it a little bit easier to understand?
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" life is the problem in this world"
And that is correct statement. That is true, no doubt about it.
What I have find out - is that we need to solve it. It is puzzle and it is up to us to solve it.
It is like we were cast in a movie - and instead of having the attitude of Marilyn Monroe - not being willing to star in a given movie, we have to accept our role. We need to play it. If we stop and look - we will find out that there is a script available (our personality) - and we have to act.
When life scare us or disgust us - it means we broke our role, we stopped acting - we become aware we are on the stage.
It is similar to this scene in this 1972 Oscar winning movie by famous Spanish director of surreal movies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqhC10B5fM8
Because due to intrinsic mechanism such as The Butterfly Effect and Chaos Theory - our own actions do have an effect on life - on our environment and on people in general. Unfortunately, we cannot see this happening, because we do not have resources to track it, but this phenomena do occur, it is the real thing. Because we cannot see it, we feel discouraged and life seems like chaos from our perspective. But due to dualism, it also is the order, it has meaning - only if we are able to observe it from another point of view. It is up to us - by our free choice to accept life. Something in our childhood made us believe that life is not worth living, because we never learned self worth and love.. but we can re-train ourselves and come over the given trauma and find meaning to life, as Camus said.
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(12.7.2021)
"how do heal codependent shame fear "
By information. It is our only weapon.
Can you imagine yourself living in era before internet - and you had not information to recognize what is going on? You had no information to label something narcissistic because this word was vague and unknown? Can you imagine yourself not being able to label and identify all uncomfortable emotions you feel when triggered - and not knowing what trigger is?
For decades I thought I had social anxiety and avoidance problem. With the discovery of Complex Trauma, I learned that it was mixture of Codependent shame, trauma bonding, external referencing. So now I know why it feels so painful when someone ashames me. I could not stand the fear because I didn't know there was mechanism behind it.
Mechanism for codependents is: 1) I am inferior, other people are superior. Whatever other people say, do, act is my command and I must obey without any protest or opinion. 2) I have no worth. Therefore, whatever I think is invalid. Whatever I suggest is dumb. So, I must listen to others and automatically go along with whatever they say. 3) Because I am not smart, valid, I must self -censor and shut up. 4) Since I am inept, I should not go anywhere, I should not be active, I should not have initiatives and my own ideas, I should only respond and do as being told. 5) Since I avoid activities, I stay in my comfort zone - and without experience I am dependent on others who are out there, they make mistakes and they learn on them and become confident and experts in areas where they made mistakes 6) I then listen to others who are better and competent, while I am not - and I will never be, because I am stuck in my comfort zone, afraid of making mistakes. And if I make any mistake, other people criticism is the correct, deserving and it should not be put in question. This goes in cycle, back at number 1.
So when we know what is going on with codependency and our fears, we can see more easily what should be done to break the cycle:
1) Don't self-censor. Do not shut up. Alarm the other person if they hurt us.
2) Be active as much as you can
3) Expect jerks and evil people out there who will criticize you. It will happen, it is not realistic to expect perfect life without issues. They will say you are over-sensitive if you alarm them. Do not take their words for granted. They are probably master manipulators and liars. They are rude because they have their inferiority complex - which they choose to heal by harming others. Normal and healthy people do not treat other people like crap, no matter what mistakes or circumstances. They use toxic shame to control us. So shaming is a tool, it is not the ultimate truth or our command to obey without any question.
4) Find self-worth, love yourself. Otherwise we will seek worth in other people and this will give us pain, fears and anxiety, phobias and uncomfortable emotions - simply by other people - their actions, their reactions will hurt us. That is not healthy. Our dysfunctional caretakers programmed us to destroy our self worth because they are mentally ill, they want us to serve narcissists and to be slaves to new narcissists by abolishing the love.
5) Know and learn all CPTSD information available - such as Polyvagal Theory. This means, whenever we are in unfamiliar, strange, or painful situation - we will switch our persona without knowing it. We will think our fears are persona - and that we must believe all our thoughts and take them for granted. This is not true. When we are afraid, our stress hormones are running the show, not reality. Our cortex brain will render our wisdom useless - so our task is like Sandra Bullock in movie Gravity (2014) - we need to find things we can grab onto that are healthy - that help us to stabilize in order to calm down. Other people opinions and their emotions and their approval are unhealthy places to make grounding. We can ground ourselves in our belief that we are capable enough to deal with life, puzzles and problems that seems to come up out of nowhere.
6) Instead of toxic people, focus on good people, our job, our dreams, our tasks and goals.
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As I understand, you heal Complex Trauma by reclaiming self worth. This is what irritates narcissists and this is what they attack first.
B.F. Skinner said: "The society attacks early, when individual is helpless".
They ashame our mistakes, our blunders, so that we stop exploring. Once we start to hide, we start to feel afraid - and then we are easy to control and manipulate.
So the healing is in being active (which means being tolerant to discomfort, issues and criticism), being open and being happy. We can only do this when we ground ourselves inside ourselves by ourselves. It means being ok with your mistakes, with your flaws, with your imperfections, knowing you can handle issues and that you do not need others to encourage you or tell you what to do or tell you how you should feel. We have to give these securities from ourselves, not seeking them exclusively from others.
And this is not easy, mentors say it will take all of ourselves to heal, it will take everything to heal. And it takes time.
When we have self worth, we can defend ourselves when someone is rude to us.
We can dismiss them and no longer take is so painfully personal. We can focus away from jerks and hostile mentally ill people towards our needs, our goals, our tasks, and people who are kind - that we simply neglect or ignore because we were involved in solving problems that narcissists threw us to solve. And it is about giving up on resentment, we know they are wounded as well - but are too selfish, stubborn and too proud to find help and therapy.
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" Define whether EVIL is NEUTRAL or BAD"
1) Evil that I know and that I experienced is bad. But I am aware that I am not all-powerful neither expert to be the ultimate judge who will label things and people as evil.
Because your definition of what I see as evil might be neutral to you. History showed us that people are bad judges when it comes to giving labels to evil.
I believe these are true statements:
'How do you fight a monster without becoming one?' because "We become what we hate".
Maslow said: "People are not evil; they are schlemiels."
2) Balance is Carl Jung's Dark Shadow.
Jung said: "Man is, on the whole, less good than he imagines himself or wants to be."
"Unless you learn to face your own shadows, you will continue to see them in others, because the world outside of you is only a reflection of the world inside you."
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"Where's your rational argument/proof that there's no right answer to anything?"
In this definition of ego-centrism:
"Everything you look for and all that you perceive has a way of proving whatever you believe."
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"Cognitive dissonance is when somebody is not able to realize how inconsistent/illogical their thought processes are."
Cognitive dissonance,
"This is why people get upset when their beliefs are challenged:
A mental conflict occurs when beliefs are contradicted by new information. This conflict activates areas of the brain involved in personal identity and emotional response to threats. The brain's alarms go off when a person feels threatened on a deeply personal and emotional level causing them to shut down and disregard any rational evidence that contradicts what they previously regarded as 'truth'."
I can tell you never read novel "Flatland" or saw it on You tube. It is 'A Romance of Many Dimensions is a satirical novella by the English schoolmaster Edwin Abbott Abbott, first published in 1884' and it shows us what happens when 2D creatures meet 3D creatures: a cognitive dissonance. The creatures in 1D or 2D in that novel act the same way as you do, calling the names, calling them clowns, loonies (ad hominem) and are unable to see new information from multi-dimensional point of view, which makes them frustrated.
You say that ultimate evil are child abusers. In the same time you deny life. Now - can you imagine what will happen in 20, 30 years or more - when you get older - will your beliefs about "life sucks" philosophy give you pleasure, friendships, happiness? Or is it more probably that you will feel bitter, deeply depressed, and angry? Now, what do you think that child abusers feel? Do they think they love life? Or do they abuse children due to deep frustration over their own life? It is their inability to find purpose, love and fill the void inside - unless they abuse easy targets... It never occurred to you that you are on that road?
You protest life due to evil in the world, while in the same time you unwittingly spread evil yourself, by dismissing life.
My philosophy might be absurd, but it is functional. It doesn't make me angry, rude, violent or dismissive, depressive or defensive or afraid.
How does your beliefs and perceptions work for you? Do they help you? Are they making you happy? If not, perhaps you might consider changing them?
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Physical signs and symptoms can sometimes accompany social anxiety disorder
Because social anxiety is trauma response.
Which means, trembling is the way how trauma wants to leave the body - like wet dog that shakes in order to become dry.
Social anxiety makes much more sense when viewed from trauma perspective:
trauma bonding (connects to others via invisible shackles produce codependency, people pleasing and approval addiction), external referencing (instead of self worth which was annihilated in dysfunctional childhood, we base our self worth in other people) and fawning (in order to follow and obey unwritten societal rules, we become too much accommodating in order to deal and balance out with the first two concepts).
---
'At core we are afraid to be alone. Scared not to have love and validation.'
Nope, it is not the reason. But you made me think about what is the reason what I am scared at the core. I would be happy that people leave and I am alone. At the core I am scared of getting hurt, wounded, attacked. It is life threatening. It is also that I am inept, invalid and basically wrong at the core. It is toxic shame ingrained inside me and it is painful to accept my errors, my bluffs, my cracks. I do it unconsciously - when I write it like this I see how irrational this shame is, yet it runs my decisions.
I have noticed that situations where I automatically people please are particular situations where certain conditions are being met: 1) where I am expected to give answer quickly, 2) there is no 'classic' connection and position of our bodies and faces - ie person is too far from me or too close, person is not facing me, or I turn myself away (I am not faced towards them, my shoulders are slightly tilted to signal I don't care attitude) to end conversation quickly by admitting and going along with anything they ask, claim or nag 3) I do not come closer and inspect what is going on, I just want the conversation to end immediately. If in close room - I would cover myself like clamp or hedgehog or ostrich with hand in sand attitude.
I know I should not self-censor myself and I should alarm other person if they hurt me - but negotiating part is difficult, I go automatically into agreeing mixed with defense mode without thinking about it.
And it is because of toxic shame - I believe something by default is wrong with me and I do not deserve to express myself, to have standpoint because I was programmed to think that in my childhood by constant criticism, personal attack and mocking of my errors.
---
"3) Stop seeing see everything as emergency. Everything is not emergency. Life is not suppose to be an urgent crisis every day."
Thank you!
This is exactly what gives it energy. Other people modulate it (shape and present it) as emergency and exploit my sense of guilt and shame if I do not obey them. I can bring supposed emergency into question and then I have more control and hold point to say no and not feel guilty afterwards.
---
You are saying that our tools of accommodating others will hit the wall and they will not work at some point.
And this is the problem - our tools and what we do with our tools.
Maslow said: "If the only tool you have is a hammer, all your problem begin to look like nails."
1) problem is inside - toxic shame - it tells us that we are inept, incapable and unable to function perfectly - while in the same time other people (especially loud, aggressive and obnoxious people) are superior, correct, valid and experts in anything - and we should obey them without opposition and criticism from our side. We should shut up and self censor because our opinions are wrong by default, as we are wrong by default. This inside mechanism is influencing the outside factor
2) problem is outside - Maslow needs - This means we cannot satisfy basic needs without other people - we need people to meet Maslow needs. And in the same time we see other people as superior due to our toxic shame. This keeps us stuck in people pleasing loop.
Example:
Shelter & Job - we need to have job, to be around narcissistic boss and coworkers. If we do not agree with them, they will get mad at us - and we might be fired - which leaves us without sources of money, finances. This might work in wealthy country, but in poor countries you cannot choose not to work - or you end up homeless.
What you are saying that worst case scenario will happen anyway. No matter how much nice and pleasing and accommodating we are. That is true. Poor countries mean that business are not working and job cuts will happen at some time anyway.
So what we can conclude here is that People pleasing is actually not being focused on meeting the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, yet instead being focused on other people.
If we live in a constantly poor country, it is logical to base our goals in moving out as primary goal. But to do that - you must work, you need money. And you can't have money unless you are accommodating and pleasing to people who provide you job.
So we conclude here is that to solve this Gordian know is to find ways how to protect ourselves from people who hurt us - in situations where I cannot run away and hide any more, when I hit that ceiling.
It means that some of our fears and beliefs are imagined - due to toxic shame and parenting. I see definitely that toxic shame which is so ingrained inside me, that it is irrational and not true. We see emergency in everything and people will use our willingness to fix them and everything. This part we can modulate. We can stop seeing everything as emergency. We can ward of parasites who abuse our need to help and work. We can try out to be less nice if the person is rude to us. If person request too much. I can do so much. It is not realistic that the worst case scenario will actually happen if I protest about unfair treatment and unreasonable requests. I have brain, I have experience - my thoughts, opinions also matter and I can tell my view, my standpoint and my suggestion.
---
Start like I did. First - realize other people do not hate you. Believe in that. And it is true. True psychopaths are rare occurrence, statistically speaking.
This means - try to be more messy, as Jay said in this video.
This means - stop self-censoring yourself. Do not shut up, and see what happens. Try to talk. If something is wrong, speak up. If someone tells lie, or accuse you of something untrue - speak your point, voice out your defense.
Try to argue like in movie '12 angry men' (1957).
This people pleasing based on fear of other people emotions - is a sign that we were raised in a very dysfunctional environment and we chose to handle it by becoming good in order not to rock the boat. As adults, we think that other people play fair, that they do their best to be fair and industrious, that they are good like us - but some of them are not. They are either clutzes - so they need our input, guidance, advice and opinion (even thought they will not admit it due to their toxic pride) - which means we will help them out by being honest - if we can't accept they ask from us, it is something we need to say so, and they will learn in the future that they cannot have anything they wish at the instant. We teach people how to treat us. If we are silent and obeying - we are encouraging them to exploit us. They will do it not because they are evil but because they were never raised in normal environment and they never learned that there are restrictions out there.
, OR - another possibility is that they are evil - so they feel good when they mock, abuse and bully others - which means we need to talk - it is the only way to protect ourselves. With our silence we keep evil alive. This part is hard for us who went through Complex Trauma - dysfunctional parenting -- narcissistic people, because they programmed us, they hypnotized us to have a filter inside that does not allow us to be frank. Inside we want to react, we want to defend ourselves, we want to say no- but this filter inside take our honest reply and turn it into people pleasing accommodating yes mode. So to break this hypnosis - as Jay said - we force ourselves to be messy. "be willing to upset people, feel judged, and criticized by people and even lose relationships in your life." That is the only way to influence this filter inside us. We accept Jung Dark shadow, parts that we rejected as disgusting - and we become disgusting and unpleasant ourselves - in situations where other people are disgusting towards us... We do not need to become violent or aggressive - but at least we do not need to smile to them. That would be good and easy first step...
It seems incredibly hard to be unpleasant to people -- but
I realized we have opportunity for this when they challenge us. When someone speaks directly to us. When they state something untrue or rude. It is the call for us to react back and be honest. I imagine it as in Star Trek when aliens appear on big screen and Captain Picard is communicating with them. That is the moment when
we can alarm other people who are rude. We can tell them off. If it is happening too quickly, we can at least try to calm down, so that we are not over-aroused, so that we can think from cortex part of brain - and see what is going on - and react accordingly. Perhaps the other person is asking for too much and we can explain to them it is too much, to correct it, instruct them how.
It is not about trying to control other people - that would be cognitive distortion to think we can influence other people. Being assertive means we tell what we need - without expecting that other person will listen to us or that they will change. But the difference is - when we do say something. Normal and healthy people will listen to us. Evil and mentally ill people will be stubborn. It is interesting to find out whom we are dealing with in our lives.
---
(13.7.2021)
And it never occurred to you that there might be a third alternative?
You imagine there are two possible solutions and you stick by them. That is dictatorship. That is ego-centrism. You deny and refuse to think that there might be anything else than what you observe yourself. So the problem is you - you restrict the playground, you name the game you want to play on your playground - but perhaps on the other side is someone who swims and needs ocean to play - and to explain your dilemma.
"so does that mean that christianity is the right answer then???"
If if is functional - yes. If it keeps them away from drugs, alcohol, violence - yes. If it allows them to find love - yes.
But if they use their religion to abuse others - then it is no.
This is what I am talking about right and wrong- it depends how you observe it and from what experience. Christianity in early ages were victims. Later on, they became abusers. Now, it depends where you are in the world.
If you abuse drugs and if your parents perform tough love on you and put you into institution - you will hate them. You will think they are evil. You will label them as evil. But in reality they are not, they love you and help you. You do not know that they probably save your life. You will know that after you overcome your addiction, after you know more.
OR
Your parents might be narcissist. They are very strict and try to fit your child mindset in their mental illness and thus they cause you brain injury. Due to your trauma, you might not know what is going on as kid - and you will not see them as evil, yet they are. Until you know more, until you get some knowledge.
So being objective and having facts is the only way we can discern what is right and what is wrong - but we always need to be open to possibility that our conclusions might be wrong. And if someone claims something we can use facts that we perceive as objective.
You are very subjective - for example, you deny quotes - so you deny people who spend their whole life trying to seek objective truth and who studied all facts available.
You are unable to see that you are subjective. That you, as I said before, you will always see reality from all things that you were exposed to, which is limited and never all encompassing. You cannot see true reality because you do not have all knowledge, you are not all powerful, none of us are. We are not so smart as we think we are. When we are subjective and when we think we are experts in everything - that is narcissism, it creates cognitive distortions, delusions and thinking traps. One my be that you label life - even though you are only player in life, you are not programmer who made it.
And that brings us back to my first comment, that we need to find the functional objective value.
We were born with brain for a reason, use it.
Jean-Paul Sartre said: "Man is nothing else but what he makes of himself."
You have to find your purpose in life, we all have to. That is our task.
How about this rational alternative:
You might have Borderline or some other PD, and thus your views are skewed due to your subjective mental limitations and reasons?
"HOW CAN YOU CLAIM THAT IM CORRECT/INCORRECT WHEN YOU THINK *NOTHING IS CORRECT*?"
I already explained it. But you are unable to understand it.
I personally choose what is correct for me, I find my own truth what I perceive as truth, what I see logical and functional to me.
But in the same time, due to dualism factor, I am aware that my perceptions that I find true and correct might be flawed and wrong, false and fake. So I am open to other people interpretations, and I am aware that the objective truth is outside of my reach, as Socrates said, and as Immanuel Kant said; "what is external to us is external to space and time also, and can never be known as a thing-in-itself."
Unfortunately, we can't co-exist with narcissists. They think differently. IF you have a choice, it is the best to plan to leave them or minimize contact. They invent their own world and abuse people around them in order to feel good. They abuse people who put up with them. IF not- they cut the contact and discard others. They are toxic, very damaging to our well being..
It is probably that we were raised in dysfunctional homes where we have not learned love and self worth - and thus now as adults we have Complex trauma and Trauma bonding - so we connect with other people in a way that is too much zoomed into other people, because we cannot zoom inside ourselves. This is the reason why their emotions and their actions hurt us too easily and too deeply. We were programmed in childhood to seek and serve narcissists, to be their slaves.
We were programmed to fix other people. We were taught to see everything as emergency. We were told to shut up and keep silent - probably by violence - and thus we lost our self worth because we are unable to express ourselves. We are unable to process emotions and this also make us very sensitive. So now we are hypnotized into depending on other people, to people please and to experience their emotions. If they are angry, we are afraid. If they are happy, we are hyper-vigilant for honeymoon phase to pass due to the abuse cycle.
So, the knowledge is our weapon. With information about Complex Trauma (CPTSD) we can break the hypnosis. We can build tools that will help us find out self worth - instead of seeking it from other people (external referencing).
We have to cut out our unhealthy automatic reactions and change our relationship with people. Being authentic and honest with them, to not self-censor ourselves.
Find out information about codependency and trauma. Write down your fears, just as you did in this comment. Write it all down how you feel. Because it is probable that we do not know what we feel truly - we are unable to process emotions due to trauma. Our labels for emotions that we feel are wrong and faulty - due to narcissistic abuse and programming. Try it out, as the first step and see if it helps?
The goal is to stand up on our feet, to be interdependent instead of dependent, to find our self worth, to express ourselves and to be active, to be free.
I would say - Start with yourself first.
See where your truth is impacting you and how it impacts your environment.
Let's say you live in Copernicus time. And you think it is bad to keep quiet about Earth being round, because you know the truth.
Very soon you would be burned like witch by authorities. Now, you are no longer alive to spread the truth in acceptable way and your stubbornness stopped your truth because of your inability to adapt to environment (due to your ego-centrism). You are totally unaware where you live, what is going on around you and what is the best way to speak and spread your truth. You lack empathy.
So, for example if you don't believe life has meaning, you might inspire some people to suicide. Would that be good thing just because you know the truth? Or you might cause some depressive people who believe your words, to become even more extremely depressive and stop living their lives fully. I would say that is bad and evil coming out of your mouth, even though you believe it is truth.
We are not island. There is domino effect, there is the butterfly effect. Our every action has some impact on ourselves and people around us in small, unrecognizable way - that over time becomes big and visible.
Terminally ill children in hospital that have zero chance to live - would you go to hospitals and convince the children that they will die soon - because that is truth? Is that good, just because you know the truth and feel compelled to spread the truth? I would say that is very cruel, bad and evil.
Or some person that is laying in the hospital, very sick. Would you tell that person the truth about crime and misfortunes in the world? It is known that human body reacts to positive and happy words, immunity increases when you are happy and have friends, someone who cares for you. Would you destroy someone immune system with your truth about life having no meaning, just because you think that is good thing - to tell the truth?
Or if some person is standing at the edge of window in skyscraper. Would you tell that person the truth that life has no meaning because that is truth for you? Would you be good or evil person if this person jumps based on your truth, that is in reality a discouragement?
Logical fallacies tell us that we live in delusions and illusions all the time and we are not aware of it. So somehow, you would not allow delusion of God, illusion of happiness, and invention of any kind of meaning for life, just because you think that is not truth... and yet your truth is filled with logical fallacies, ego-centrism and lack of empathy.
I've find similarities about saying yes (and then feeling resentment afterwards) to this ego defense mechanism: Reaction formation.
'Reaction formation reduces anxiety by taking up the opposite feeling, impulse, or behavior. An example of reaction formation would be treating someone you strongly dislike in an excessively friendly manner in order to hide your true feelings. '
Yeah, I think as kids we were learned (through verbal and physical abuse programming and hypnosis) not to argue, we were given message to avoid conflict in order to fit in, to be afraid of confrontation - so we were given the only solution how to manage people's requests - to say yes automatically to others.
We obey, we were programmed in our childhood to be servants, slaves to mentally ill people who are hostile. So the concept not to self censor, not to react - either through fawning or fight - is strange concept - because we were learned that talking, communication and assertiveness is not an option. And it feels strange and frightening to be honest, to voice out our suppressed thoughts and ideas and opinions. I agree- it is chemical, all those hormones being activated inside, make us feel it is best to go along with whomever is loud, obnoxious or rude, not to rock the boat. But since it is in our body, we are not aware it is body, we perceive it as normal, regular thought line, like normal development in our thought process - we do not see it as something that can be rejected, we are fused together with our urges.
Or - if we are fed up and when we hit the ceiling - we go to another extreme - to by hysterical and unable to calmly and objectively present facts and then we feel toxic shame. Even in situations for being honest, when we talk in calm manner and when we state our truth in objective and civilized manner. That is codependency trap, it is double binding - no matter what we do, it will be wrong and it will feel wrong - unless we say yes and if we are not servants. We are hypnotized into being slaves in social situations with people who seem to us as authority or who appear superior. That is unhealthy, it needs to be broken. Yet we do not see it as unhealthy when we feel toxic shame. Other person's opinion, scorn and criticism is too strong influence for us to handle. It is like kryptonite to us.
Toxic shame is entity that needs to be addressed for codependents, too. It makes us immobile, and controlled. We are like puppets on a string for anyone real or imagined superior - their real or imagined anger control us, even as preemptive, when we are afraid someone might get mad at us, as if it is matter of life or death, and we are not aware how ridiculous and irrational this fear is, yet it control us. We move heavens and earths not to bother other people. Other people's comfort is number one priority for us. Fixing their problem is just one task that stems from this urge to people please, it is actually our belief that other people must not be disturbed in any way. I do not have any other definition for this other than hypnosis. We are hypnotized into being codependents.
So logically - the solution would be to allow ourselves to irritate others, :D that we allow ourselves to be jerks, boring, hostile, unkind. Not to become that, but to give ourselves an option to be all things we hate in others - narcissists. To give ourselves space to consider using some available tools from the forbidden area, dark area, ugly area what we see as forbidden area - without actually becoming it as our identity and personality.
Toxic shame pruned us too thin, we were told it is forbidden to use helpful tools that are not objectively wrong. Such as saying no. And not feeling bad about it. To be honest and authentic. To express our opinion. To talk. To voice out our truth. As I understand, that is our self worth.
We were told that is wrong and now we are stuck with people pleasing and seeking approval and external referencing - we formed habit of identifying our worth to be inside other people, their words, their actions, their feelings, their reactions. That is trauma bonding. And we are not aware of this automatic bonding - we think it is normal to feel extreme shame when someone is mad at us. Because our worth is in their words, opinions and feelings. That's why it hurts us so much what other people say, do, think or feel. That is so unhealthy and this thinking habit needs to be broken.
As I understand it will take everything - and it is absurd from codependency mindset: We have to be loving yet we have to show hate if someone is hateful. We need to be agreeable and acceptable person, yet we have to show we don't agree with something and that we do not accept something if it is objectively wrong. Without depending on other people opinions we need to find what we want from life - and be active, yet calm.
I also see codependency as it is said in video - we find ourselves disgusting, we do not feel competent to handle life, so it seems easy solution - to serve other's interest, their guidelines, their instructions. Our codependent habit of not having initiative and not exploring made us believe erroneously that we are not able to make up our independent ideas how to manage life. Holding our worth in other people hands is a mistake. We need to take our holy grail back to us, where it belongs. Good people will not need it anyway, and narcissist will parasite upon it - so it does not belong to other people.
I think the major problem for codependents is that we do not what self worth is, neither by definition nor by examples.
"Self-worth is the internal sense of being good enough and worthy of love and belonging from others. Self-worth is often confused with self-esteem, which relies on external factors such as successes and achievements to define worth and can often be inconsistent leading to someone struggling with feeling worthy."
This means that aligning self worth will shake our life because everything we have done until now was done in the aspect of other people. What we bought, what we wear, what we do, how we talk, how we choose and what we pick, how we express ourselves - it is connected to our personality and identity - and in codependency all of these we have connected consciously or unconsciously with other people, not to what I want, what I need, what I think is the best.
You label them all red haring, so you reject the objective truth and facts.
"The groundwork for your junk is nothing is true and everybody can make up an do whatever they want."
Until you take 'evil demon hypothesis' into consideration. Rene Descartes discovered it:
"In the evil demon argument Descartes proposes an entity who is capable of deceiving us to such a degree that we have reason to doubt the totality of what our senses tell us."
Objective truth 1:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon
This tells us that there is some kind of virus living in our thoughts, perceptions and minds and it distorts our views. It make us believe in false ideas.
Which leads to objective truth 2:
"limited beliefs are not fact".
"people rarely try experiments that could disprove their initial belief, but rather try to repeat their initial results"
Congruence bias
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congruence_bias
This is what you do. You believe in your idea, and reject the possibility of alternative. You ignore the alternative. That is Confirmation bias
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
My philosophy allows to overpass it by accepting the absurdity and dualism. My philosophy allows to reach truth, objectivity, facts. Your is one by limitation and blind belief. What is your objectivity? Where is your truth?
As I said before, limited beliefs lead to self-fulfilling prophecy, invention of your own world, delusions, illusions, mental illness.
Which leads to Objective truth 3:
Framing effect - our choices are influenced by the 'frames'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_effect_(psychology)
You have firm, rock solid belief in antinatalism. That is your frame. That is your limitation.
Which leads to Objective truth 4:
When you have limiting beliefs and when you reject alternative and new information, you are stuck at Dunning-Kruger Effect- high confidence yet low knowledge and low competence, that is stupidity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
You base your philosophy on what you believe personally, and you label everything as Fallacy (red haring). While labeling everything as fallacy is fallacy, it it Fallacy Fallacy:
"The fallacy fallacy (also known as the argument from fallacy) is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone assumes that if an argument contains a logical fallacy, then its conclusion must be false."
https://effectiviology.com/fallacy-fallacy/
You did not know what logical fallacy is, until I pointed yours 4 days ago. :D
Which leads to Objective truth 5.
Availability heuristic - Things happening in the world vs Things you read, where then you have all truth based on small part that you observed, read, viewed, talked about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic
As a human being you are limited by your humanity, you cannot know the all truth. No one can. Yet, you believe you are smart enough to judge life and other people. Well, you never asked yourself how come you don't have Nobel prize yet with all that high IQ and all that knowledge??
Which leads to Objective truth 6.
Selective perception - to begin with, our perception of the world is deformed, incomplete, then our memory is selective.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_perception
You have your group where you yack about anti-natalism, and you ignore people like me - who are not even against you at all, and who even partially agree with your views, definitions and some conclusions.
You stubbornness is the problem, you are ego-centric. Kids outgrow ego-centrism during age of 12. Some children who went through trauma, dysfunctional parenting get stuck, and you explain yourself that life is not worth, because of your own personal experiences. Which is bias, not truth.
Truth is out there, we will never reach it, because it is too complex for our brains and our capacity to understand and hold data in our memory. You got to allow alternative views and try to be open for other explanations.
Who are you to judge what is proof?
How do you know it is not proof?
That is paradox, and it cannot be solved from your perspective due to your limitations.
"You fail to prove that hypothesis is even VALID."
That is also paradox - you fail to prove is it not valid.
I say -
If you apply it to your own experience or examples in the real world - it is valid. Viruses exist.
"The truth manifests itself as objective fact and logical reasoning on VALID premises and conclusions. "
This is paradox - your words do not prove anything, just as my quotes. How can you have objective facts if you do not have all information available to make analysis.
Due to Naive Realism: We do not perceive ideas; we perceive their objects. We see the world the way we see it-because that's the way it "really" is.
You do not have the truth. You have dogma.
Dogmatist: Holds strong views and is unwilling to compromise. That is self-referencing bias, it is not truth. You can know only what you observed in your life. No one can observe everything, it is impossible, your brain is limited to observe everything, so there is possibility that your knowledge, thinking and conclusions, perceptions and ideas are flawed, fake and wrong.
History showed us that dogma is mental illness - all dictatorships, - it is prone to self destruction because it refuses to upgrade itself.
Along with that, there are
Cognitive bias - brain finds shortcuts.
We as humans are limited in our knowledge. We do not have resources to know everything. There are infinite database of information - for example even if you have quantum computer so you can store all available knowledge, there is knowledge in the future which is unavailable right now.
Without all knowledge you are subject only to partial truth and shortcuts - which lead to delusions and illusions, errors and thinking traps.
Any concept, idea, belief or perception is subject to be debunked.
Antinatalism/efilism is not rock solid material, it is not chemical substance, and thus as an idea it is subject to be molded according to observer.
The perception of Antinatalism/efilism will depend on the observer.
What can debunk Antinatalism/efilism? Well,
Start with people who are anti-Antinatalism/efilism. Do you know what their truth is? Have you listened to all of them?
Your truth about Antinatalism/efilism cannot be rock solid because it is a figment of your imagination. As such, it is prone to change and to be defined and judged to whomever observes it. There is no absolute observer. You may feel like you are ultimate judge, but you are not because truth cannot ever be fully grasped by human beings. Paradox is - that if you somehow succeed to grasp all the truth, you would also grasp the alternative and facts that you reject otherwise, and your new find truth would change, it would be different, or perhaps it is very probably that you would find out that you are wrong about Antinatalism/efilism, and that you based your truth about Antinatalism/efilism on your unprocessed emotions and impaired childhood.
But, as my "absurd" philosophy allows me to interact with you, the paradox is what enables me to overcome the fact that we will never know the ultimate truth, perhaps the new find truth would be very favorable for your beliefs.
My point is that we will never know this.
My point is that the only problem in you is your belief that you hold the truth. Which is in fact a dogma. You cannot have the truth. No one can.
It looks like simple solution but it is complex.
If you live in denial, you create more problems - because if someone is talking negatively about you, and you are silent - that person will think he is right and keep on talking negatively, making lynch mob soon. I call this phenomena External factor. Some people are mentally ill, hostile and manipulators. They do not think and operate and do not follow and obey the (un)written rules as most people do. It is the same with abuser - if you do not fight back, the bully will interpret this as a signal that they are allowed to do whatever they want from you, being more aggressive. Because they lack empathy, they are not aware their actions hurt someone, they are focused only on their personal pleasure and instant gain.
Also, if I ignore something, it means I must invest a lot of time in my defenses, in my shield. As we seen in Star trek, even the sci fi ships have limited resourced how much shield can withstand the damage. Also, this is energy draining because you are investing your time, money and resources in making a shield - which is the opposite of ignoring, you are actively participant in your opponent. Shield is also a sign of external referencing. Other people are my gods, so I define my boundaries by other people, which is unhealthy. Paradox is the more I pretend not to be bothered by others, the more sensitive I will become, because I am training my brain to seek new attacks from others by making defenses against others. This is how OCD loop works.
This is what happens in our body -with allergies. The solution to allergy is to convince your body to be more tolerant of innocuous (unharmful) intruders.
Which leads to the question - my reaction is based on real life threat or imagined ones?
Social anxiety makes this answer to this question blurry and lumps all events into a single one - everything is a threat, just like allergy.
So if we apply advice from this video - which states that opinion of others is not important - then this gives us energy and power - to react when needed. If someone is rude - we have to evaluate is this reality or my social anxiety sees it as negative comment? If it is not troll, can I communicate and talk with that person and thus test and check it out - is it life threatening or troll.
If I deal with bully, I need to employ specific methods that would be different than if this person is curious and appears annoying. If I choose shutting down and avoidance - with time I will label all people annoying and every problem would be solved by not communicating with them - which leads to more social anxiety because I do not have skills, experience and speed to deal with people in correct manner. It is said that evil prospers when good people do nothing. When they are silent. Our words have power and we are not aware of its impact. The bullies, dictators and psychopaths attack our expression first - to silence us. That way they have the power.
So we can conclude that social anxiety is unhelpful mechanism of the identical copy-paste behaviour (hiding away/shield). While reality require us to be 1) active and 2) diverse. Sometimes it is ok to hide away. Sometimes it is ok to be jerk. Sometimes it is ok to fawn. Sometimes it is ok to people please. Sometimes it is ok to fight back. Sometimes we will make errors as the only way to learn something. The problem is our refusal and denial of diverse reality.
Social anxiety is not present with happy, calm, peaceful people. Social anxiety is connected with rude, loud, obnoxious, aggressive, unkind people, the lack of psychological safety in environment that makes us frightened - which implies trauma from childhood (CPTSD). Flashbacks and triggers from Complex trauma make us over-react and see danger where there is none. If we decide to protect ourselves from danger (real or imagined) in a way to make shield and refuse communication to everything that we perceive negative - we get isolated and create huge problem with avoidance. Trauma is problem with low self worth (so we create external referencing and see others as superior) and being unable to express ourselves (due to feelings of inferiority).
Social anxiety is problem when we deny or delay our own goals, tasks for the sake of avoiding uncomfortable people out there, as obstacles to our goals.
But now we see that due to trauma, we might imagine some of those uncomfortable people - in reality they are not dangerous at all, it is our trauma that distorts our views.
Ok, solve that ambiguity who is evil and who is not by testing people whether they are real bullies or not.
What to do with real bullies? I've come to conclusion that the only solution is to be authentic, to be honest. If someone is annoying we should say something. We should react, otherwise in their psychotic, sick head they think they have license to destroy you, they interpret your silence to be more rude.
I've noticed that many bullies are cowards - they mock, nag, complain in a way that is not confrontational - they make it sideways, like a joke or not in your face, they use groups to shame others or they yell, accuse, demand and then they quickly turn they back and walk away - not giving me a chance to defend myself.
Without being hysterical - the only way to react it so state facts, and be as much as objective about how they act and what they make you feel - that is to realize they crossed boundaries.
Some of them will realize they were jerk and stop acting as one. Some of them will be proud and stubborn, but our reaction is like traffic light where there was none before. There are bad drivers that ignore traffic lights, most of them pay attention to them.
And if we live in normal, healthy country (environment) those who break the rules - get punished by the system eventually.
Who would want to hang around and be friends with someone who mocks others?
Perhaps our goal and task would be to minimize the environment where I would be in contact with toxic people and to be active as much as my resources allows me to be, that I make initiatives and be leader and in charge of what I want, what makes me happy - as oppose creating invisible shields and put myself in mentality of reacting to others and circumstances.
This is connected to my social anxiety disorder. And I've learned this year this is due to Complex Trauma (dysfunctional childhood, growing up in narcissist environment). So I learned about concepts such as trauma bonding and external referencing - which means I subconsciously place my own self worth in other people, so that their actions guide me how I must feel about myself.
Problem is that I've been stuck in habit of resolving intrusive thoughts by simply avoiding all people, avoiding social settings or avoiding asking for what I need. Which is bummer - when you need to check your health issues or find (another) job or meet new people.
I've tried PureOCD tips - they helped a lot, it is about what you described - instead of engaging in thoughts or actively fighting them - it is about shifting focus on another task that is important to me. And about exposure, accepting mistakes - and even making them on purpose to provoke symptoms.
But with time I realized that it doesn't help me when I find myself in such real situations where other person is berserk. I realized that my over-reaction is problem, it is like allergy in the mind. So it comes down into filtering - are other people really psychopaths - who are best to be avoided or perhaps they are simply ignorant in social etiquette, so I can calm down, and feel safe to be around, without engaging in intrusive thoughts rumination.
I always try to be specific about what bothers me, because fears are irrational and they are in a cloud - they appear murky, they are undefined - and thus we do not know what we stumble upon in the dark. So I think Pietro feels fears but he never analyzed what exactly is that his fear is composed of and what his fears actually contain inside.
And about your comment - how do you define put downs and abuse?
The reality is that in 90% of time people will rarely show such abnormal behaviour. Unless you live in really toxic environment, such as the Balkans where it is normal to mock others and make fun of other people mistakes or curse others for their unwanted yet bad actions, toxic shaming.
I would like to go into detail about put downs and fear of abuse. Lets see what is hiding there.
Seek what does it mean really? I think it is just as it is in my case: I realized through self-analysis there are psychopaths out there who pry into other people lives and ask personal questions that make us uncomfortable. With social anxiety we have toxic shame inside- that is our wound. So anyone finger pointing at our mistakes, flaws, things we avoid, things we are unable to do, things we do not know how to do - that is a put down. We feel that as abuse.
People will rarely curse us, call us names - this is rare occurrence, to the point it can be paradoxically easily ignored -and it doesn't cause permanent damage. Yeah, it hurts, it cause us pain - but we know what is the source, and it is usually hysterical person that can be easily dismissed as lunatic.
Because,
the huge problem are situations where you cannot walk away when someone is intrusive. Job or family for example. Some situations where you need information or service from someone who is intrusive. You need shelter, you need money, you need your basic Maslow needs to be met - so you cannot run away from jerks so easily. And many people who have social anxiety deal with anxiety by fawning as defense mechanism. This means- we do not leave others. We see them as our Maslow need. And when afraid, we have normalcy bias - paradoxically we want to leave but we can't, we feel bonded, like there are invisible bonds, and our defense mechanism thus make us think we are over-reacting and we should be tougher and not such whimps. We normalize abnormal beahviour from others. Mostly due to this:
additional problem are social norms - it is normal that people ask personal questions in order to know more about you. So - people will ask us intrusive questions. But looking it from afar, it is something normal in social settings. Unless - it is really rare and extreme cases when we know these people use the information later to ashame us (psychopaths). Other than that - you simply cannot tell other person 'It's my private matter', because questions that we find protruding are formulated, embedded and presented in innocent way.
Another problem are social norms about being uncomfortable. For example, if done as mocking, sarcasm or "objectivity" - it is normal for other people to be intrusive in hurtful way, to make statements or ask you things that are your private business in impolite manner. If you object, they will label you as oversensitive. And as social norm - it will spring up anytime, anywhere over and over again. So it is useless to fight it.
So putting down would be defined as they invest time to investigate and make biased judgements about your shortcomings and mistakes. And usually they do not do it in too extreme way, so you are left there with your wound and people being intrusive, pecking your wound - and you can't do nothing about it. I think that is 90% of social situations, that is why we have social anxiety.
I think that leaving out/walking away should be done only in extreme cases where you warned and alerted the person to stop. Because we will end up avoiding and running away as option to slight comment all the time - and as I said, social situations in 90% of cases produce opportunities for others to protrude and be intrusive. This does not mean that we passively take it as something normal and do nothing about it. That is the heart of social anxiety - we do not know how to deal with intrusive people, we do not know how to deal with intrusive thoughts - due to childhood programming (CPTSD) - we never learned to stand up for ourselves, we do not hold our self worth inside, we hold our worth as if it is find only in other people - in their reactions, how they behave and what they do and what they think about us. Because we are unable to process emotions that trigger our wounds - and logically we look at other people how to feel good about ourselves, because we have wound inside that is preventing us to have self confidence. That is called external reference and trauma bonding - and it makes us feel scared and afraid of other people, and they can easily control us by using shame as tool, and we feel hurt by other people so easily - because we don't have our worth inside ourselves. It is in the hands of other people, what they think of us, their opinions, their approval or disapproval, their criticism is our command, order and truth about ourselves. We feel inferior, but in reality, people who abuse our shame are the ones who are really feeling extremely inferior - their criticism is a way to defend against them feeling their own ineptness and low IQ and low ability for anything in life. But we do not see it that way due to programming, we see others superior, we were raised by narcissists to serve and obey others in order to feel good about ourselves. Less fuss we make, we feel more safer. The more kind we are to other people, we think that we worth more. This need to be kind would not be a problem - if there would not be external factor - evil people, narcissists, parasites, abusers, users, exploiters.
And to make things even more complex, social anxiety makes us appear weak, silent - and this is promised land for people who have their own wounds, but they solve their own shame and anxiety by hurting others - mocking them and collecting personal information so that they can red herring and subject into your shortcomings and mistakes of other people around them. We attract toxic people like moth to a flame.
I try to solve this problem with social anxiety - by defining what is the problem.
And then I naturally can draw conclusion -
It is about realizing other people do not hate me, they have their own issues and I do not need to fix them.
I can be unkind to people who are unkind.
I can be authentic and honest to everyone.
I can say no, and refuse suggestions.
If someone is continuously abusive and rude even after I alerted them - I am allowed to leave.
You are absolutely right!
Some people such as covert narcissist, they package and cover their abuse in seemingly toxic shame packages aimed at our mistakes, shortcomings, blunders, weaknesses - so we cannot defend ourselves. They are correct in what they say, what they claim and in about their statements. We suck at things (just as anybody else), we are not perfect, we are what they "objectively" say about us. But unlike others - we do not nag, complain, finger point or attack others for their mistakes because we follow strictly unwritten social etiquette.
That is a huge problem.
If you say 'no' - they will argue - and they will win the argument, since they cleverly concocted the web of toxic shame stew poured all over us.
That is double binding - whatever we do, it will be wrong, they will be right.
If you say 'yes' or perhaps ignore them - they will take it as the green light approval to further their aggressive attacks.
One month later after my former comment, I have been studying myself and see what the hell is wrong with my social fears - and I've definitely certain that:
1) There is external factor that many people are not aware of at all. Neither mentors nor people like AFA, they mean well, their advice has a good intentions - but it is devastating for real life situations because
2) certain people who are evil, difficult, manipulative, exploiters, sick, mentally ill, hostile, who resolve their toxic shame wound by wounding others - that is external factor that many people ignore - I guess due to collective hypnosis and inability to understand the true evil. Good people simply refuse and cannot accept that there are people who enjoy in hurting other people. That is too painful information to be accepted as true for normal, good people. People who are lucky enough not to encounter narcissist and psychopaths in their early childhood have no idea how evil people can be to others.
We were all learned by society to be good and kind - in order to avoid societal breakdown - but this teaching is devastating for people like us - who are already good, kind and normal and healthy - we don't have evil bone in our body, yet we are flooded by messages from society (government, media, parents) and that in fact the actually messages 'to be kind and good' is intended for correction of twisted mindset of evil people or people who have potential to start resolving their life problems through rage, being difficult and aggressive.
So AFA will say "We teach people how to treat us" - and yet we are repeatedly told to ignore abusive people. Especially during dysfunctional childhood and Complex Trauma programming - that we abolish our boundaries and serve narcissists, or actually anybody who appears loud, obnoxious or "strong" - competent, while in the same time we were taught to relinquish our self worth to achieve the programming ingrained in us, by mentally ill people.
What people like AFA do not understand - is that there are people out there who "package" their intrusive and prying methods into socially accepted norms. So if you say something and react in order to teach someone how to treat us - you are made to be over-sensitive, strange, weird or blamed to be victim.
Also, people like AFA do not understand that people who are quiet, nice and kind - do not know how to defend ourselves, our methods are dysfunctional immature ego defense mechanism, fallacies and biases.
People like him do not realize that we would rather hurt ourselves than we would ever hurt another human being.
People like him do not understand that codependents and sensitive people are not financially independent and due to low income they depend to stay in vicinity of evil people.
And especially since we are more (emotionally) intelligent - we know that "toxic people" are ego-centric, mentally ill and their actions are the result of dysfunctional childhood, it is not their free will. They are distorted, invalid - so it is not their fault. They are evil - they are ready to destroy other people who oppose to them. And that due to cognitive distortion law - which states that we cannot change, influence or modify other people - unless becoming narcissists - it is clear that it is not so simple task to teach other people how to treat us.
And why would we?
Why would we react to other people anyway? If we are healthy and balanced, other people opinion would not bother us.
If our self worth is based on ourselves - other people would not have the power to influence us anyway. We would not be concerned about what other people think about us. There would be no trauma bonding and external referencing to teach anyone - since they do not matter. They are crap. How can we validate and take for granted from someone who is worthless trash? What they say or think about us cannot hurt us.. unless they are actively evil and they employ their strategies and their flying monkeys to sabotage us. So if we feel compelled to "teach" someone anything - it is sign that we are problem, since we have bond and referencing issues, we are inferior and see others as superior ones who are needed to be alerted and alarmed of their evil doings.
That is paradox.
Or one common and very stupid, easy advice is to 'leave' toxic people - but what to do in situations when we cannot - family, job, task, goals, needs, services and help that they provide? In some situations we are forced to be around them. If we are codependent we will be trying to fulfill Maslow needs from other people. So obviously, it is not other people who are problem - it is our twisted sense of worth, which we placed in other people hands.
I am trying to resolve this issue how to "teach" other people who are rude, and for now the only solution is the one I found in Zoroastrianism: to be honest, to be authentic, full , without any hiding, tell it straight, short and sweet towards any person, good or unkind, nice or rude:
for example in many cases it will work to say no. Without any explanations.
That is the problem - we were never been taught in our childhood to say no. We were physically and verbally abused into being obedient and serving to virtually anyone, giving up on our self worth and putting our self worth in other people.
That is something that people like AKA who luckily never experienced deep toxic shame and unbelievable brainwashing by narcissist in our early innocent ages, that we are now as adults under the narcissist's spell, we are under hypnosis - and we do not, we are unable to "teach other people" - unless we become utterly hysterical or violently dangerous - so I guess that we would be institutionalized into becoming "good" people who serve others. :D
I discovered this only last few months, and I've been studying social anxiety for 21 years now.. It is not easy, complex trauma is complex for the reason. And even now with all the information about CPTSD that I am aware of - I still find myself in social situations where other people are intrusive, prying and I keep smiling at them, trying to be pleasant, good and kind. i give them message - yes, please continue, step all over me, you have all the rights to invade my personal life, my mistakes, my fears, blunders and embarrassments and analyze them and suggest solutions - without me asking for any. Nor do I am personal with them, yet they somehow think we can be personal with me...
This is what narcissist feast on - they rape our distorted mindset of non violence and being good and kind people.
They parasite upon our hypnosis and use toxic shame to control us for their amusement and feeling of superiority.
They have built wall so nothing can penetrate their walls, they swim in their biases and fallacies and ego-centrism - so because of that shell they enforce, no one can "teach" them how to treat people. Yet they teach others by exploiting private and personal information about us. They feel welcomed to pry and invade boundaries. Yet in the same time they manage to deflect any incoming messages. Their toxic shame do not allow them to be vulnerable, they developed mental sickness as their guidance system and they manage it perfectly in full capacity through narcissistic rage if trampled upon.
MY grandmother was like your mother, and she influenced my father into narcissism and made codependent and learned helplessness out my aunt.
For example, I shockingly realized a week ago that my aunt do not look at anyone's face. She notices how I am dressed and complain about it (as learned by narc) - and she told me that last week she noticed that I wear glasses. I wear glasses since 1995. People like AKA do not understand the effect narcissist have on people around them.
Can you imagine what abuse she had to endure so that she is unable to look at my face for 26 years - she looks in my direction but I guess she has no capacity to process information that she sees.
And - then someone like AKA comes in and bluntly claims that we can "teach" narcissists how to treat us. :D Unbelievable.
This is why YT channels like CrappyChildhood and Lisa Romano and so many others are excellent - there are simply no information about complex trauma and narcissism in mainstream media. People - general public is unaware how sick aggressive, loud and obnoxious people can be, to what extent they can damage people lives. So they offer easy, simplified advice to people who went through hell...
Definitely one month later I can claim this advise is faulty.
The faulty part in this advice is "people".
Some 'people' such as narcissists - they are not people.
So the rules do not apply to them. They are mentally ill. They live in constant panic - their default brain is lizard part of brain, and cortex part is turned into machine to produce evil traps for their targets.
Manipulators, exploiters, abusers, psychopaths, sociopaths, parasites, vampires, borderlines, any aggressive and rude person out there - they do not operate as normal people. Their mindset is sick, they are abnormal. They are like walking crap that might look like human being, but they are psychos - so rules, etiquette, norms, commands and orders do not apply to them. They have no shame, since their toxic shame is guarded and protected against the truth - which disables them to receive any information, comment, action from other people.
They see themselves as grand, you (and other people) are in their eyes simply like a red balloon and they are huge elephant who can simply stomp over something small and insignificant as you (as Mark Twain described it in his final book).
Narcissists will never admit they are wrong. They are literally unable to outgrow their ego-centrism. They have no capacity for empathy or to step in other people shoes. They are good actors though. They can pretend that they have heard you - when it is in their own interest or during honeymoon phase. They are not idiots because of their twisted mind. They can in fact be very cunning and intelligent - because they do not follow social rules that all of other normal human beings respect, observe and follow.
To make it more complex, we (normal and healthy) people are unable to understand, comprehend and accept that such people exist. We can perceive it logically - but we will forget it, because this information is too distressing to be accepted as true, and our own goodness and kindness disable us to understand fully what evil is - since we are not evil ourselves and we are incapable of committing evil.
So yeah, we can teach rude people who are not dangerous how to treat us.
We can teach clutzes, schlemmels, Kramers out there to make them aware when they are being clumsy idiots to other people feelings - but this advice does not work for evil people out there. This advice does not work for where it is needed the most. For people with CPTSD who attract evil like moth to a flame, since we are too easy target for it (being kind, nice, open and friendly to everyone).
Yeah, but we must not forget that how we react instinctively is normal, healthy. We try things that would work with normal, civilized, healthy individuals.
It is not our fault, we are not guilty ones for the emotional abuse and anything that manipulator utters out.
They will do absolutely everything in their power to make us feel guilty and to shut up and subordinate to their grandiosity, because their distorted brain, their whole pathetic existence is living for accusing other people. They invest every inch of time, energy and resources into hurting and harming other people. We are unable to grasp the depth of evil in those people, how mentally ill, hostile they really are.
To communicate with them is double binding - we will never win it. They refuse to get healthy, they love living in their mental sickness.
The only way how to deal with them is to leave them - but that is not always possible - and then we have problem.
And it is not only parents or romantic relationships.
For people who are stuck (temporarily or permanently) - the only way how to deal with evil is to develop our own self worth. We got to find ways to stop handing it out to other people around us.
It comes down to own our mistakes, blunders, shortcomings, ineptness, wrongness, negative traits, disadvantages and anything we perceive as 'wrong' inside us - and when we are able to that, we won't feel the pain and hurt from other people as we do right now.
Toxic shame is the tool they use to activate our own inner critic to broadcast anxiety, rumination so that we become helpless victims, inferior and submissive slaves to them.
unlike your previous comments, you started to explain through your own words my own points. You have made a breakthrough from your ego-centrism. That is something a lot of ego-centric people have extreme hard time to learn, perform and do. I congratulate you! Once you pick on this ability, you will have a lot of tools available to listen to others and create more harmonious, deeper and more adult relationships than until now.
" your philosophy prescribes apathy"
My philosophy literally allows people to become Gods and to create their own Realities (by being objective, as much as realistic and kind to other people). Something that is the purpose of life anyway - we are being prepared, trained and tested to become mentors in some other plains of life and dimensions, both in this lifetime and after we die. I'd say that is far, far away from apathy. :D
My philosophy is not mine. It is collection of all information available out there from philosophy, psychology and my own experience and other people's experiences.
Check this out:
"The Stockdale Paradox - confront the brutal facts, yet never lose faith. Confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be. And retain unwavering faith that you will prevail in the end."
This paradox was discovered by former USA soldier who spend years in prison camps as POW and he based this knowledge on his horrific experience. So it is not fantasy, it is real life lesson, integrated into my own philosophy that you find so confusing (due to your mind viruses, mental traps, biases and fallacies - which prevent you from seeing reality through my eyes).
"Individual idealism only brings more absurdity and contradiction"
Yet, life is absurd and life is contradiction. Just take a look of my 20+ videos of human biases, fallacies and paradox in every area of human life.
Conjunction Fallacy. 'It is the assumption that more specific conditions are more probably than general ones.' You superimpose the worst case scenario over my general statement in order to disqualify it, while in the same time you neglect aspects of my statement that cover even the worst case scenario such as child abuse.
"if truth doesn't' exist"
Truth exists - but it is not available in the full capacity to us.
Google image: "bias curse of knowledge" and "availability heuristic":
There is always a "lack of insight". "Things are not always as we think they are."
"What comes to mind quickly is deemed significant - sometimes incorrectly."
Anchoring bias - we cling to the first piece of information we get.
The anchoring principle - The tendency to rely on single piece of information or aspect of an event to inform decision making.
Then there are immature ego defenses that prevent us from making correct decision because we project or deny reality.
"harm isn't bad to you"
From objective, cold, laboratory standpoint - harm is not emotional state. It is a result of psychopathy, illness and distortion. Since people are warm and sensitive creatures, unlike laboratory, we tend to placate labels such as "bad" to horrible, totally unacceptable and extreme events.
"YOU'RE the one being egocentric here, because you think folks are entitled to make up their own "truths""
People are not entitled to make up their own truth, instead people are forced to make choices and decisions every single moment based on very little knowledge, based on their biases and fallacies, paradoxes and partial experiences. The only way to be functional in the world is to make fast choices and quick decisions that are probably faulty, wrong and mistakes and totally incorrect, maladaptive, immature and non functional. When you are aware of this hard and difficult reality, you will either 1) be paralyzed and isolate yourself and never face life ever again because it is difficult and hard by default OR 2) you will invent your own life, your own rules that explain the reality as much as objectively as possible - including your right to make mistakes, to be fool, to be idiot, to be toxically ashamed by others and your own inner critic, to be embarrassed by your own choices and your own decisions that you are forced to make 24/7 about any issue in which you are not expert in.
"Your philosophy justifies the actions of ALL child abusers"
My philosophy is concerned on a person who is observing others. It is not about judging others. There are mental institutions, there are law enforcement, there are experts and professionals who deal with child abusers. This is not our privilege nor task, it is not our job to hunt child or any kind of abusers. Unless you are policeman, judge, lawyer or social worker or some kind of professional working in the field?
"Your philosophy says dysfunctionality and unfairness is nothing and fine to commit."
I say if you are objective and realistic, and if you are allowed to make your own rules - then if you are a good person, if you are kind person - you will judge dysfunctionality and unfairness harshly. You will reject it. You will label it as bad. You will find it repulsive and shameful. But in the same time - you will be aware that your judgements may be wrong in some particular cases. That we might jump to conclusions, especially by the news in the media - where we are presented biased, quick and unresearched facts based on half or none knowledge, presented to us as full reality. Or if we went through Complex Trauma, we will tend to judge some people to be toxic just because they trigger us and remind us of our abuse and our childhood abusers, while they are not at all.
Yep. To a distorted mind that is inventing their own rules which are sadistic, sick and evil. To a mind that observes others exclusively in order to toxically ashame them, they wait hidden and from safe position to make fun, mock and abuse others when others make mistake, any kind of mistake.
We are all forced to make decision and choices 24/7 based on little information, based on little knowledge, based on little experience, based on our biases and fallacies, and of course we will make mistake, it is natural it is objective to make mistake - especially if something is done for the first time or rarily or without feedback/instruction or mentoring. Yet those evil people magnify, distort and ashame basic, normal and functional human behaviour - making mistakes. That created disorder and degrade mental health in others, because we think we are getting feedback from normal and healthy person - while they are in fact evil and their desire is to hurt, harm and destroy others into submission and feeling the pain for their fun and feeling of superiority and covering up their wound of their own ineptness, invalidness and incapabilities.
I don't. :D
I am not God, I do not know anything and as human I am not able to know anything, I am limited. Just like anybody else.
But -
there are some clever people in our history such as Socrates, who tell us their ideas, so they awake us, they direct us, who inform us, who pass knowledge from beyond, who make us aware of new landscapes, who awaken us from our coma.
And they tell us that there's no truth. And suddenly I am no longer blind, they make me realize and see that if I live in 2D dimension, that there is 3D dimension. If I live in 1D dimension, I realize there is 2D dimension. If I live in 3D dimension, they awake me to possibility of 4D and higher dimensions.
And how do I know they are not simply babbling?
Well I test it - and I see that it works. I see that it aligns with many things that in the past I found confusing, distressing and paradoxical and unresolved for decades.
This is the same process for a person who is mentally ill.
Most mentally ill people are not aware they are sick- they perceive their difficulties as stumbling blocks that they hit sometimes, they get hurt but they don't know why exactly, they perceive it as quirks, as cloud of depression, anxiety and undefined fears, they deny it and they suppress it or project it to others. They make their ideas in order to make sense of chaos and absurdity. They will never be able to define it - unless - they start to educate themselves - and finally talk about it to some professional, to someone outside of their mind. Then they get external information - that is new and it sounds absurd to them at first - and that absurdity is normal and natural. If it was not absurd, it would be the same type of information that was already present in that person's mind.
The new information allows mentally ill person to heal their stumbling blocks and to perceive reality in clear way, focused way, it is no longer distorted - and now they are able to walk without hitting the stumbling blocks.
And this tells us:
1) Life has a meaning - it is about education and progress. We are here to learn.
2) Although we are born ego-centric, this is only a stage of our growth. Beyond ego-centrism lies other dimensions, other levels - and we can access them by knowledge and education, and the right kind of thinking - without mind viruses.
3) To align with my "absurd" philosophy - it is about accepting that as humans we will never realize the full truth, we will never be able to "see" other dimensions - and because of that, we have to keep the dose of reality that will keep us grounded. And this is how absurdities and paradoxes are resolved - by putting limitations on infinity. So - there is no truth, but we have to put limitation to this idea in order to materialize it and make it functional. This non ego-centric mindset will allow us to interact with other people. If we are stubborn, we will be ego-centric. We will invent our own world but we would be like communist Albania or North Korea - closed system - which is doomed to failure, depression and hunger - it is not functional if it is isolated.
Because the nature of universe is connecting with others - in order to make friendships and gain and exchange knowledge.
You resolved your life problems by denying them, you deny life. That is immature ego defense mechanism. People deal with problems in non functional ways when they are isolated. You never received the correct information from external source (from external healthy source), so you invented your own truth. Your denial of life disables this training center for which Earth was made for humans. Your denial of life disables the interdependence between people.
It never occurred to you:
What if Earth if like software that allows you to browse internet?
If you came up with the idea of denying life- it never occurred to you that there might be some other ideas out there that are totally opposite from yours?
That the absurdity you feel from other ideas is delusion? It never occurred to your that there is the solution to any problem out there, that you only need 1) education and 2) other people/external source - in order to find it?
But no, you deny life and believe in this immature ego defense mechanism.
1) you said in your first comment that your truth is, and I quote,: "rock solid".
2) in the same time, you claim my philosophy is absurd and you ad hominem curse me, label me as clown - even though you never read my mind and explore it
You feel resentments and irritations and when you encounter something that is different from your standpoint. Because you fail to implement Socrates idea that we do not know anything and that we have to listen others and test our ideas with them, if they are courteous enough to communicate. Instead of curiously comparing and checking and exploring the ideas to see why your lego parts do not connect with their lego parts, you mock and deny they have lego parts of their own. Because,
3) you deny life, as your basic outlook for anything. Which is fallacy and bias and immature ego defense mechanism. When we don't know truth, we are prone to making mental shortcuts in our mind to explain the truth - and often it is wrong conclusion, because total truth is too big for us to learn, process and understand. But you deny this fact, you claim you know total truth, because you perceive it as rock solid.
How can you know it, that your outlook is final and ultimate? Perhaps the total truth is something that our brain is unable to process because it is limited. What then? You will never be able to see rock solid truth, because we have not enough of the prefrontal cortex, neocortex, basal ganglia, cerebellum, hippocampus, and amygdala to store all the truth. We are limited by our body to perceive the truth.
You encounter/observe a problem in life - and you decided to reject life as quick solution/idea/philosphy.
Google "immature ego defense mechanism denial" and you will get this information:
" Denial. Denial is a defense mechanism proposed by Anna Freud which involves a refusal to accept reality, thus blocking external events from awareness. If a situation is just too much to handle, the person may respond by refusing to perceive it or by denying that it exist."
To me, this definition of immature ego defense mechanism of denial - that sounds very much alike your own rock solid truth about life.
And that ego defense mechanism is normal, because people are prone to immature ego defense mechanism to make decisions about stuff that are hard, difficult, foreign and alien to them. Without external guidance, without functional childhood, without education - we are left to our own devices to make sense of absurdity - and if we do not have love in our life in our early age, we will be prone to dysfunctional ideas about life in form of biases, fallacies and immature ego defense mechanism. That is why they are called immature - they are childish. They are stuck at certain early stage of growth. (Which implies there are some higher knowledge out there available for us to learn and discover.)
I went through that kind of denial thinking in my past, it doesn't pay off, it is not functional. As years go by, it distorts you and makes you bent. It leads to more hurt and pain even though it seems to help us not to feel pain in short term perspective. When Kurt Cobain committed suicide, for years I thought that when something hurts me in my life, the best way to deal with it is to idealize how to kill myself as quick and super easy solution to anything difficult and hurtful in my life. That unhealthy thinking loop will lead you to respond and to react to anything, no matter how small or big - as nothing is worth in life. This creates disorder because you are actively creating mental distortions such as depression, isolation/withdrawal and phobias. It makes you immobile. Everything in universe is moving, everything is in constant flow and action, that is the nature of life - so we have to align to the laws of life. It is our task to accept it as such.
And now enters my "absurd" philosophy: in the same time you are right, you are correct. Life is difficult, Life has no apparent meaning. When you are born, when you are adolescent - without external knowledge, without love, without healthy role models, without correct information, left to your own devices -> life really is absurd and meaningless. Life sucks. There are unfair people like abusers who hurt others. -and many times there is no justice and such people are not punished and isolated from hurting others. These are all facts of life, it is brutal truth - that life sucks. And it would stay like that - unless there is something more, something beyond life - that makes sense and that gives us hope and meaning to chaos and absurdities.
I say - do not change your mind. Stuck with your rock solid truth. But at least acknowledge the fact that there is much more of truth and facts and knowledge and information out there available - that is far beyond our capacity of understanding, that we were given life to be awaken to its existence and that we are allowed to approach it and connect with it and explore it and interact with it.
Other people are that source. Books, ideas, philosophy, psychology - it is out there. If you claim that the level of knowledge where you made your cut and decided this is rock solid part - you limit yourself to isolation. — "Life obeys all the laws of physics and chemistry". Isolation leads to distortion, it is physical law.
"An isolated system is a thermodynamic system that cannot exchange either energy or matter outside the boundaries of the system. ... The system may be so distant from another system that it cannot interact with them. The system may be enclosed such that neither energy nor mass may enter or exit."
Your truth about denial of life creates black hole. You get suck into nothingness - to absurdity. You get annoyed by my absurd philosophy, from your limited perspective you see apathy and nihilism in my philosophy, and ironically that is exactly where you are headed with your own rock solid truth about life.
Change it now, you are still alive, you were given this life for a reason. Open up to new possibilities, new levels of thinking, new dimensions. Learn it, make new acquaintances other than those who confirm your delusions. See the world - And only then decide what is rock solid truth for you.
Something is mismatch in that department. It seems that I do not trust my judgement and see others as to give me approval how to act, talk, appear-their opinion is like judge sentence or scientific proof about anything. I see other people words as commands and I am not aware of it, this unnatural and unhealthy inferiority is so ingrained inside me that it took a lot of education to become aware of it.
Then there is additional problem - what to do if there are toxic people who abuse this need to be obedient, kind and respectful to other people. I find it extremely hard to ignore and reject someone being rude to me - and this two concept creates a strong social anxiety for me. I guess minimizing both beliefs will help me to feel more relaxed and feeling on par with others in social situations.
The third concept that needs to be taken in consideration is: "Intelligent people enjoy being alone."
I see it like Sandra Bullock in movie "Gravity" (2014) - where she is pulled out into space, without anything to grab on, manically trying to grab onto anything to get stronghold, standpoint place, where she would stop spinning out of control in empty space.
Enter other people - I resolve my panic by fawning, when I am in situation where I can't run away. I see other as my reference point, so I sub-serve, submit to them, obey like a panicked dog scared of possible whipping. And it took me decades of books, education to see it, perceive it in this way. I just couldn't define that panic - it was like some strange quirk, that as I thought, would probably go away by itself.. which it never did.
And I am logically aware that the reality is not so scary as it appears in my mind. I am aware that reality is annoying and irritating at its worst. But it doesn't help from panic attack kicking in when I find myself in situations that my body explains as life threatening. I know it is connected to Complex Trauma. I know that panic attack is emotional dysregulation event. I know CPTSD is preparing me for catastrophizing through rumination and flashbacks to triggers many times before, when I feel safe - before panic attack moments. I know my mind was learned in dysfunctional childhood to deal with life situations through the lens/filter of biases, fallacies and immature ego defense mechanism and cognitive distortions.
I also am aware that there is a concept that I name "external factor" - it is about realizing there are evil people like narcissists, psychopaths, sociopaths who do not follow unwritten social etiquette so they either covertly or overtly exploit, mock, abuse other people - which causes secondary damage (feeling scared of possible embarrassing and distressing situations) that appears as primary problem (lack of love & safety in childhood) - so now social anxiety seems like generalized, unresolved entity of fear.
I am aware of toxic shame that is the root cause of social anxiety, too. Yet - awareness diminish and minimize social fears, it does not remove them.
I guess it is like driving phobia - you can only beat it with action and repetition.
That is correct.
But - what happens if you can't shake it off? What if it stays with you like a leech and it sucks your energy and regulation? What if you tried everything and toxic shame is stuck all over your body like an oil tar and you cannot scrub it off? I'd say you have an unsolvable problem then.
"We get to choose our tribes as much as they get to choose us."
Ok, that is true.
But what to do when your Maslow needs are connected with evil people who abuse you - and you can choose being homeless and dieing of hunger - without home and finances to support yourself? I'd say you have an unsolvable problem then.
For me it is being afraid of being physically or verbally abused. That fear is irrational and overwhelming, and I learned it from Complex Trauma to resolve it through fawning - codependency - people pleasing => external referencing, external validation and trauma bonding. Now it is stuck with me like hypnosis and I can't snap out if it. I am aware I am under hypnosis and I can't stop my body and mind from over-reacting to real or imagined rude people who attack and abuse others. Yeah, even if the abuse is not directed to me, even if it is fictional or in the past - it still has an affect on me as if it is in real time and against me personally.
Only last year I realized that
a) most people do not hate me (until then I unconsciously thought 99% people hate me and they can't stand me - known or unknown people, that my very existence is intolerable to them) - this hate belief understandably generated a lot of social anxiety fears
b) that I do not self-censor myself, and that I do not shut up - to be honest and thus authentic instead. Keeping quiet when someone was accusing me of totally untrue allegations was especially mentally devastating to experience.
You obviously never been and living in toxic countries like the Balkans. :D
People here pass on toxic shame like a flu, in a loop.
Making fun of others or being hysterical about other people appearance, deeds or opinions is the national pass time.
Imagine living in a country where you need to bribe, pay in order to get a low paying job - with a salary that will barely cover all your basic expenses - and on the job you will experience regular mobbing, abuse and belittling as something that is normal and standard event. (It is due to widespread nepotism and negative selection where bullies are promoted and hard working folks aren't).
And no, you cannot resolve these mobbing issues here on a court - legal system is paralyzed and corrupt itself.
Imagine living in a country where you call an ambulance for help - and they refuse to come because they say it is xmas holiday and people are drunk so that is the reason for not coming out for intervention.
I would say that pretty much puts you in a place where your basic Maslow needs are not being met.
People like you are unfortunately either unaware or you deny existence of what I call "external factor". It is evil.
Evil people - such as narcissists, psychopaths, sociopaths, exploiters, abusers and parasites, emotional vampires. Evil people (not even toxic people, these are evil ones) will never tell you in your face that they are sick and that the only reason for their living is to drain other people - in fact they are very charming to others and to the potential victims.
They control you through gaslighting and toxically ashaming your mistakes. The mistakes that are normal and natural, your shortcomings they treat as if they are life-threatening events. Day after day. Moment to moment. Not occasionally, not rarely,
and you can't defend yourself because you'd experience irrational and abnormal rage. Narcissists can't take no for an answer. Or any kind of free thought, different opinion or opposition.
Or, I'd say you probably never experienced overt narcissistic rage in your life, thank God for that.
And imagine kids who grew up in such environment so today they have CPTSD, flashbacks and triggers keeping them in a state of emotional dysregulation.
There are toxic positivity cartoons on the internet, I googled it when I made biases and fallacies videos.
Someone made a cartoon series about people who neglect psychological injuries and superimposed them on physical injuries - in order for people like you to understand what you are doing to people who simply cannot "update" their brains.
One cartoon shows a person bleeding due to his arm being cut of, and a person next to him says something like: "Cheer up, Keep on positive attitude, no pain - no gain!"
I think you might be suffering from Normalcy bias. "a cognitive bias which leads people to disbelieve or minimize threat warnings"
Also, just world bias - 'The poor may be blamed for their circumstances and victims of sexual assault are often blamed for their attack, as others suggest that it was the victim's own behavior that caused the assault.'
Now, don't get me wrong. I do agree with you, you are absolutely correct, this is absolute truth:
"we have a conscious choice/opportunity to update our brains and work toward making healthier decisions"
BUT as I said, the huge problem is that you deny the existence of "external factor". This lethal mistake is common among general population and mentors as well.
The social rules and unwritten etiquette works - it really works in normal society and among civilized people. But there are sick, mentally ill people out there with their masks on who create disorder and abuse others with their mask - gaslight them into submission and instability - constant dysregulation, so people can't upgrade themselves and realize health. You can't dismiss them - either because you need them (due to any reason - job, family, service, help) OR you are not aware you are dealing with hostile, mentally ill person.
We are all interdependent, no man is an island - you need to socialize and be in contact, close relationships with other people - so to an extend other people have an influence on our choices, thoughts and actions. Unless we choose to be narcissists ourselves and abuse quiet, good and kind people into our service.
My take is - that there is nothing wrong with us. We do not need any upgrade. We do not need to "become" healthy. We are already super-upgraded. We are already healthy.
If someone rejects us because of our opinion that was studied, overthought, taken in consideration from 1000 possible perspectives - I'd say that there is something wrong with the other person, and it is natural that is hurts to be rejected or made ashamed for something we tested as the best solution for everybody.
If I see myself as someone who needs to be upgraded and if I invest time into building walls and protection against other people - I think this is extreme case of codependency. Paradoxically, your advice of having positive opinion about being rejected and kicked out is just as bad as having a negative opinion - it is only another extreme of the same entity - being people pleaser, seeking approval from other people, external referencing, external validation and trauma bonding.
You simply shifted yin into yang - but you are in the same story - the story of being a victim and having victim mentality.
What I understand is better solution: is to radically change our perspective of other people. It is about finding the self worth inside us, not to check and test other people , other tribes and people who approve us for a proof that we are ok.
This part does not match up for myself. For me, codependency is not being in active control and managing people - I am too afraid of possible criticism and rage from other people. This kind of control I experienced made me to self-censor myself and shut up - which actually set me up for the real codependency - that actually other people control me.
I see other people words, actions as my orders and personal commands. I have inferiority issues.
I guess codependency described in the book is for fawning types who feel superior (which is oxymoron from my perspective). To fawn means to serve others.
The way I 'control' other people is that I do my best to set up environment where the other person will be happy, without problems, where I fix situation so they are not bothered and disturbed, where I listen and give and they take, where I receive the pain but I do not alert and alarm the person when they accuse me of totally unfair and wrong or unconnected accusations. The way I control is very painful for me - I worry, I ruminate, I engage in PureOCD, obsessively seek the best solution - to produce the best solution which will not hurt, irritate or annoy the other person in any possible way cause them damage.
The way I control is very passive - I gather and collect all possible data from any kind of people around me - and then I carefully process in detail other people wishes, desires, commands and preferences - and try to grant them the pleasure, so that they feel happy - and I rearrange my own goals and personal tasks so that my actions, wants, needs, deeds do not cause them harm or irritation in any way.
And of course - this does not work - because most people take advantage of it - and bullies love it, too. Bullies genetically notice people who are quiet and who react to loud and anger emotions - so we are easy to control and manipulate for their sick pleasure of hurting other people.
So not only that it hurts to put my life on hold - it is that I am aware of what I am doing without having capacity to change myself - but it also hurts when other people are unhappy, irritated, rude - even though I moved heaven and earths to please them. I've screened in my head the every single possible scenario how to make situation as pleasant and good for other people - and yet they are still unhappy and still want more and still nag and they still complain. You give them finger, they tore your arms off. That part is particularly devastating, when you do your best, when you give superhuman resources to please others - and they not only are unhappy, they accuse you and abuse you and make accusations against that are unfair and false - and as reaction - I shut up, I do not defend myself, I self censor myself. This part tells us what codependency really is - it is setting up life so that other people control us, even those people who are not psychopaths/narcissists - I teach them to become one!
I've seen this at my job, with relatives - I do my best, and yet if something comes up wrong - that I could not fix - the other person will accuse me of mistake or shortcoming - and I will not say my opinion and reason why it is like this, instead I will shut up - and I'd even smile to them so that they know it is ok whatever they do. I would ignore it. I give them signal - it is ok whatever you say, however you act, I am not bothered at all, you can crap all over me and I will ask for more. As long as you calm down and don't blow in full rage mode. And thus I give them message: you go on continue being ego-centric and see life only from your own perspective. That is the message I give to others when I ignore and I try to fix everything in order to please other people - where I see myself as unable to make decisions - and other people are superior and they are the ones who make decisions about anything - that I simply obey to. Without having any initiatives from my side, unless obvious tasks that will please other people.
The author of the book missed the inferiority complex part. The author got it right about controlling - but it is passive control actually - it is about being slave, obedient to other people type of control. I control nothing, other people control me. Other people emotions, words, actions - they are in control. I per-emptively make decisions to make sure other people are happy, contained and satisfied. I do not interact with them. I do not order them what to do. I do not dare to negotiate with them, because I was never taught in my Complex trauma childhood that is an option. I do resent them though, especially after I watch YT videos, or read books or watch media - then I get glimpses that there is some kind of alternative way to interact with people, other than making them to feel happy and energetically avoiding them experiencing their annoyance, anger and rage.
Example from real life - at my previous job, there were 2,3 co-workers who did the same service job - and whenever there was some incident that needed to be done, they would frantically started to make drama about it, curse loudly as if they are being slaughtered, be extremely irritated because they had to work - well I stepped in and I took to work as much as possible - so that I do not listen to them cursing and yelling and making drama and being abnormally hysterical. So 4,5 years later, two bullies came to our team, who do not know dynamics from before - and they started to spread lies about me - that I am the cause of all work they need to do when I am on my vacation. (??!) I got back from vacation, and they all threw temper tantrum on me, that I work too much and that I cause incidents - so I am the cause of all problems about the work they need to do. And I could not defend myself, for a week or two I stopped doing so much - which proved them wrong, since people started to call them - and my "colleagues" simply diverted their calls back on me with time, for me to work on it.
It was only the last year that I realized that other people do not hate me by default. Due to my inferiority complex, I believed other people hate me, no matter who they are, known or unknown. That by default I am faulty person, toxic shame issues. Since I am not worthy, other people are my external reference and external validation - so I took their words, actions, deeds as my command and orders and I aligned my emotions to theirs. If they are unhappy, depressed and irritated, I felt my world is crumbling down - and most lazy ego-centric morons are unhappy all the time - so I was unhappy mostly.
Last year I finally realized that I should alarm and alert other people when they cross boundaries of common sense. And that I should not self-censor myself and shut up - especially when I see that something is morally or ethically wrong (such as accusing me of things that are untrue).
"Bad things happen even when people are careful."
I think that is the right, realistic and correct way to perceive life and life difficulties - it doesn't give us fantasy freedom idealizations-that might come crash and set us up for future disappointments with our expectations too high,
it is a form of "the Stockdale Paradox" - to accept brutal facts of life, yet to have belief in better outcome in future.
As it is said in the movie Ordinary people, if we can't feel the pain, we won't be able to feel anything else.
It is very strange, alien and foreign concept for us that is very difficult to understand. As I try to grasp it - boundaries are not yelling and confronting exclusively, in fact it is about pre-emptively creating environment that people know what are my boundaries. For example, often boundary breaking is people who make fun, mock or criticize our shortcomings and our mistakes and wrong decisions.
When in reality - since philosophically speaking ultimate truth is paradox and we live in duality, dualism - this means that all people make mistakes, all people are wrong - but we were raised to believe that our mistakes are the only one in the universe and thus other people are superior and we need them for external validation and external reference.
So - if someone makes a statement (through mocking or hysteria) - the effective boundary is to understand that due to dualism and duality - there is always two sides to anything, and their statement, no matter what it is - is wrong at certain perspective. As people pleasers- we are not aware of this anf we go along, we believe other people words, and we take them as our commands. So the boundary would be to realize - other people are crappy just like us - at anything, no matter what mask they wear to appear super-confident, or no matter what they done in their life to over-compensate their own weaknesses so they appear as super-humans in our eyes.
Once I realized this concept - I get much easier at detecting other people "friendly advice" as prying and manipulating and them actually picking up on my shortcomings and mistakes and fears - for their amusement or attempt to them feeling good about themselves, or to put spotlight of mocking or rage on your mistakes and shortcomings which are natural and normal - they make it appear as abnormal - and then we withdraw, we see them as super people while we are inferior and we should smile to them and pretend no matter what they say it is ok, it is ok for them to ask intimate and personal questions. So I see boundaries more in that perspective, rather than making arguments and being in defensive mode all the time. It is called The Paradox of Anti-Semitism - where you are being in a position where invariably have to explain the charges. The other person simply needs to make charges - and you react. We are then like a circus animal - that make us to do tricks and dance and move as they order us around.
So the boundaries come up with filtering and being aware is other person is friendly or jerk. As people pleasers - we do not filter people. We are like innocent children, we trust everyone, we don't believe that other person might be hostile mentally ill person, that there is no reason to smile back to them and pretend that what they do is just fine with us. Because even if we cut contact, we would feel guilty and try to ask for their forgiveness the next time they criticize us. We got to come to the point where are able to cut people off in our heads. And it will be easier to do it in real world. I see boundaries like that.
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This compassion and deescalation attempt is a recipe for external referencing, fawning, people pleasing, codependency and approval addiction.
My problem is not that they will win or not. It is about me trying to do some task, minding my business, especially if it is done for the first time, -and people who are nagging, criticizing and expecting perfection - for something I never did or I do rarely - is devastating for me, too much pain, hurts too much, because I am defenseless - I really suck at something and people are angry or mocking me because of my not being perfect at something.
They abuse, use, mock or attack my shortcomings. What triggers me are people who start to scream, yell, being hysterical about expecting me to do something that I cannot do, I don't know how to do, or I suck at doing it. Which then I respond to avoidance .- which turns into vicious loop, me not doing things, me being stagnant and isolating - me not getting perfect at things - others making fun or attacking me for not being perfect at something.
Elephant in the room is - people who are nagging, criticizing are mentally ill. They are abnormal. People who have no empathy, adult who is ego-centric is mentally ill person. And then they spread mental illness onto good, kind people who follow social etiquette and unwritten social rules (such as not hurting others, not defending myself, agreeing, being agreeable). Some people need feedback, they need to be alerted and alarmed when they are being jerks. That requires courage and abolishment of accepted norms of behaviour - screaming back, making a scene, being hysterical to match their attacks. Problem is that this is also not great solution, it makes us anticipate negative people, makes us agitated, hyperalert. And it all stems from aggressive, rude, annoying, difficult people. They are really like a rotten apple that rottens everything that comes into contact with them.
Some hysterical people are hysterical just because, they turn their back after rage, they do not listen to others. They hurt others, turn their back and run away. Or they gaslight, they manipulate, they spread toxic shame in order to control other people. If we stay silent, if we ignore toxic shame - it is like radiation - it will not go away, toxic shaming will poison the environment.
Whatever the solution is - I learned that ignoring, shutting up, self-censoring and pretending there is no elephant in the room is not a good solution.
Problem are people with inferiority complex issues, we who believe are unworthy and our thoughts and opinions does not matter, yet other people words and opinions are command and ultimate orders that we must follow, the ultimate truth and reference to anything. What I discovered is that people who are silent and who shut up - should be loud and talk, they should do it the most. They analyze and see everything from all perspectives - so their words are ultimate commands and orders, yet they never come out of mouth.
Problem starts when you can't keep on walking due to meeting Maslow needs that are connected with that shouting man, who is pointing your mistakes, mocks you and toxic shaming your mishaps and shortcomings. It is that man is triggering feelings of guilt.
Or
another example - the dream (nightmare) that I had this morning that woke me up. Let's imagine you sit on a plane or train (so you can't jump off it easily) - and there is some hysterical woman that sits besides you, and she starts to yell at you that you are intruding her space, she is clearly mad, and she has a pencil in her hand and threatens to poke your hand with it, and at one point she starts to scribble on your shirt. Problem is - that person who feels toxic guilt from childhood will feel incredibly embarrassed for being in such situation - even though the woman is clearly lunatic and/or under influence. Problem is that person who is target is probably calm, good person who does not like to make scene, who does not attack back people (and bullies sniff this out). Problem is that such person follows the written and unwritten rules - so they will probably feel uncomfortable for leaving the place that has reservation and sit somewhere where someone else will be rude to them for taking their reserved sitting place - which will probably result in target engaging in freeze response - and thus an easy target for hostile person with sharp object. Problem is that it will be traumatic experience for the target - and may develop in phobia from people over time, expecting the random attack from strangers. And what would a person without feelings of guilt do? They would call the police and alert there is mad person on board threatening others with sharp objects.
What I am saying, people who have trouble with intrusive thoughts are probably victims of hostile, mentally ill people who abused their calmness, goodness and peacefulness in the past - so they try to solve situations by over thinking, other than physical action that may or may not be unkind to others.
I understand this, but I have hard time to not assign meaning when someone toxically ashame me, criticize me, nag about my shortcomings, mistakes or if it is connected to meeting Maslow need (job, family, task, service, help - that I need from someone hostile). So I can't let it pass away. I can't not to react - because if you ignore someone who is evil, he will interpret this as a green light to increase and continue bullying. And let say this evil person is psychopath, sociopath, narcissist, abuser - that for certain conditions - you cannot ignore, let go or abandon. So you are stuck with their demands, orders - they are in fact intrusive thought impersonated. I find it extremely difficult not to let that bother me, not to feel inferior, depressed, weak - and no matter what I do - I feel double binding - if I react - I go to hysterical mode - which the other person is experienced in so you can't beat them. And you are left in your free time to ponder, ruminate and think how to get out of this situation that you are trapped in.
Such situations are where this technique falls short. :(
Can anyone imagine what devastating effect these three sentences combined have on a person who is suffering from inferiority complex without being hostile and narcissistic, and you believe at base value everything they utter from their mouth? And if you say something back, they gaslight you - that you are the sensitive one, just because you can't accept their blame and guilt tripping you over your mistakes, shortcomings and mishaps.
"Fix your weaknesses. If you are ignorant -" Trouble with knowledge and truth is that it is unattainable. This advice is counter-productive because it creates toxic shame. You can never reach the truth - and this is what bullies and narcissist exploit. They make fun, mock and attack people who are making mistakes, who have shortcomings and mishaps, they play like general after the battle and they are experts from the safe zone, after everything is over. They are not to be found when the mistake is in its development. Also, people who are too smart and who know everything - are boring and irritating, and non-sexy if you present yourself as grandiose and put other people down - especially at the parties. So being dumb has its positive sides.
"Person has to recognize they have problem." I heard that Jordan Peterson is popular, but this sentence expose him as someone who does not fallacies and biases. The trouble with knowledge, paradox of knowledge is that a person is never aware what is solution - because they don't know they have the problem in the first place, their perceptions, mindset, environment confirms everything that a person thinks, feels and believes in. Because of cognitive dissonance - such person (any person) will automatically reject foreign, strange and unusual information. That way we get stuck in tunnel vision, we create biases as mental shortcuts to make sense of life. This tells us - it is next to impossible to recognize there is a problem - unless it is pointed out to us clearly and without aggression. Otherwise, we will turn our focus away and ignore such information.
Socrates said that I know nothing, therefore I know everything. We can never know all. We can never know everything - and this will create problems. There will always be problems. That is brutal fact of life. A solution to one problem will not solve millions of them out there. So it comes down to being kind to each other and patient. Toxic shame as a weapon for control is used due to this fallacy of truth. Manipulators exploit unwitting, good people there - by exposing other people's mistakes, mishaps and shortcomings of others.
This must be stated when you engage in "person-has-to-recognize-they-have-problem" rhetoric.
PureOCD was huge discovery back in 2015 and your videos were great help - but with time I got stuck with not knowing how to deal with rude people - real or imagined rude reaction from other people invoke worry response that I can't let go. The guilt (and shame) that I feel is so strong that it over-runs the ERP, ACT techniques.
It makes sense to see it as a plethora of compulsions.
It is devastating for our mental health because we obsess that we do not hurt anyone in the process - which makes us easy to exploit, manipulate and hurt us - for people with bad intentions.
I think this is the central issue. People with empathy are prone to cognitive distortions - and we have a tunnel vision about defining what is white and what is black. This is cognitive distortion and it what makes the guilt into a driving force in our lives. It distorts how we see reality. We are too strict. We are too extreme, but in our eyes, from our standpoint, we see ourselves as balanced - and then we allow inner critic to wreck havoc inside our head without realizing we are far away from being balanced.
Can we see reality more objectively? Can we define what exactly we have done so wrong to be defined as black sheep? Can we forgive ourselves and allow ourselves to be wrong, bad, stupid, selfish due to such and such circumstances?
When we feel guilt/shame, we are very easy to be manipulated and to hypnotically serve malevolent forces. We have strong desire to be a good person - but toxic guilt is using this kindness against ourselves into turning ourselves into constant victimhood mode and obsession to be correct and good. As I understand guilt/toxic shame- can come up either by dysfunctional childhood (Complex Trauma) or from other people (narcissists, exploiters, manipulators). It is like a virus in our minds and we are not aware that we are affected and that it impacts our decisions.
For me, guilt is making me to be very passive, to be afraid of all people-drowning in social anxiety, to be afraid of living and makes me to stagnate. And I still do not see that this is killing me: I see my every move as wrong, and that I hurt other people if I do anything. All this because I want to be a good person, I want to do right, I do not want to disappoint anyone. And I am aware it is absolutely impossible to please all people. Yet, I have hard time to accept that I might be a bad person due to some of decisions or actions that I need to take.
I guess it comes down to being willing in accepting Jung's dark shadow in order to break vicious guilt tripping loop that makes us stuck in life from living it.
I agree with you in part, though.
We should fix our inadequacies - that we are focused on. The ones we see as dreams, as tasks, as something that will leave a trail, something that will help others.
Intrusive thoughts are usually connected with imaginary or possible danger that in reality happens extremely rare.
With intrusive thoughts you have to accept them and focus on something else, the more you are successful at ignoring them without engaging into them, the better you will be at training your brain to stop over-reacting and to tolerate uncertainties without scaring you with worst case scenarios and catastrophizing, and without imagining scary situations. As I understand with cognitive distortions - you have to actively engage with your thoughts and to actively fight with them. PureO tells us active reaction to thoughts is creating more and more of intrusive thoughts because brain always tries to protect us - and brain is doing this by making up and finding new dangers to look at constantly, over and over again. The action of reaction is generating more intrusive, scary thoughts and scenarios to worry about them. So they suggest to not ignore them, while simply shifting focus on something else. Similar to trying not to think of pink elephants - paradoxically in the end makes you think of it. I tried out PureOCD intrusive thoughts methods (ERP, ACT) in real life - and it did work for few months - until I was in situation where I was criticized for my shortcomings and not being perfect, which affected me to worry once again, and I could not shake it off anymore with any method proposed.
In real life, also I tried this column technique, for cognitive distortions, shortened version - due to social anxiety, I wrote what bothered me and I gave rating, in time it did make me react less - but avoidance was not gone - even after 4 years of this kind of journaling. I avoided some fears which festered. And I got into more complex situations - that at the time I didn't know how to react - someone criticizing me, someone being rude to me for something I have not control over - and only later I learned I am people pleaser, I have inferiority complex - and these issues are not covered with this CBT technique... and it should.
Both techniques (either ignoring or monitoring your thoughts) leave you in somewhat passive position. It doesn't cover situations where you need tolerate the untolerable. What is the bar, what is the limit- how much can you tolerate? And then there is problem with personality - what I like, what are my preferences? Do I have problem with socializing due to cognitive distortions and intrusive thoughts about social events - or am I simply introverted and it is my character that dislike parties? Is something that I like - really what I like - or is it fears and phobias that I picked from dysfunctional childhood, CPTSD -Complex trauma that governs my choices really? Both techniques set you up for abusive relationships, where you tolerate the manipulative, exploiter, narcissist because both techniques tell you - you are just imagining the abuse, or you are over-reacting, or you are too sensitive. Both techniques set you up for victim of gaslighting. Because they focus the problem inwards - they don't suppose that the other person is extreme liar for example, so it sets you up to be naive and believe everything that other person is telling you without supposing the other person may be severely mentally ill. For example, I was giving a lots of "advice" from colleague - for 2 years, only to find out this years she fits Borderline PD description perfectly. (A person that seeks conflicts, always finger point at other problems, seek drama, and exploit information given to them for their constant drama and ongoing conflicts).
Both techniques tell you that the other person cannot influence you, it is in fact your thoughts that are problem. PureOCD techniques tell you that you need to be stoic, and if you engage in fears - that is the compulsion, so you always have to think positive and be focused on well being. So - if there is a person with agenda, you are without defenses, you do not react, you do not set boundaries. Some people are aggressive and pushy, they need to be alerted and warned - sometimes (very rarely) in a rude and hysterical (lunatic) manner. Intrusive thoughts don't tell us where is the limit - what is the real danger and how to deal with real danger, with real abusive people, that are not our imagination or over-reaction.
Cognitive distortions tell to us with anxieties that we imagine some negative event - as in general, as it will repeat always, so we can expect it the next time. Cognitive distortions tell us that we need to be objective as much as possible - what are really facts, instead of our fantasies, what is really the truth. So overcoming cognitive distortions is that you approach each day as tabula rasa, without past mistakes as unnecessary burden - and to always do it again, not to give up. That part is sensible.
But I think both methods fail in situations where our reaction needs to be - overthinking, worrying and contemplating the exit strategy because the situation where you are at is not functional, it is detrimental and really, objectively dangerous. These are rare situations m but black swan event (worst case scenario) comes up when you least expect it. Cognitive distortion techniques ignore toxic people and toxic environments. PureOCD intrusive thoughts methods do not ignore that part - in their methods they do mention that we focus on our plans, on healthy aspects and healthy goals, instead of thinking what someone said, criticized or mocked, for example.
Both intrusive thoughts and cognitive distortions do not explain what if the person suffers from external validation and external referencing and fawning as default strategy to deal with unknown and hard situations. Both concepts do not allow us to identify dangerous person as manipulator and exploiter and abuser, mentally ill person - because they both claim that the other person cannot influence our decisions. Therefore methods to heal them sets you up for being codependent, people pleaser, seeking approval, pushover. It's because both methods ignore personal boundaries, they are not focused on having boundaries - they both tell you that you are over-reacting, over-imagining things and the sole problem is in your head. And that is catch-22. If we suffer from anxiety, we do imagine danger most of the time, we really do over-react, we are not present - we live either in past or future, imagining/reliving the past mistakes and trying to control uncontrollable future blunders. Anxiety sets us up for being victim, as person who is easy to control from outside, and to be in victim mode -always seemingly complaining and nagging - and everything seems to bother us.
Our task how to deal with intrusive thoughts and cognitive distortions is multi-level, multi-dimensional. The goal is to be calm - yet we are required to face our worst fears - which are too scary to try at all, the least to be calm during the exposure. Any negative impression will give us negative evaluation and make it hard to try it again. Our goal is to not worry and ruminate - yet we have to install analysis and being aware of our mindset, what we think, even though analysis leads to paralysis. We have to be sociable, yet we have to adapt to our personality which may be that we do not like hanging out with people too much. Our task is to be care-free, happy, positive, yet to engage in complex tasks, with unhappy and negative people, environments - and expect that we are not influenced by the external. We have to think and appear as light-headed, without burden, effortless yet in the same time to have excel table of our efforts, goals and marking how are we improving.
What bothers me the most is this external factor. Both intrusive thoughts and cognitive distortions tell us that events and people are not defining factor and they do not influence us, unless we allow it ourselves. But what about situations like job where some bully picks on you - and whatever you do will be detrimental to you - if you fight with them they will be more severe to fight you and prove you wrong. If you ignore them - it will be more severe because they interpret it as green light to bully. Both concepts do not tell you what to do in catch-22 situations where you need your task, job to be done - when you depend on someone who is not willing to cooperate and is very difficult and scary. Both concepts do not tell you what to do in situations where you can't leave difficult situation and you have to endure mocking, bullying, mobbing, abuse - and both concepts tell you that it is your fault, your thinking is wrong, that you should be either happy or neutral. They do not tell you how to fight, at what extent, how to accept the brutal reality that you cannot change, nor control.
I think this is where the key lies. We try to control something that is out of our control. We are too passive to fight, too friendly, too nice. In the same time, we do fight in our head, we do react and criticize and are very rude - in our heads, mostly to ourselves. I think we have low self worth due to toxic shame, we do not trust ourselves that we are capable to handle life so we invent worry and rumination as a way to control life, as being instructed in our childhood. We are not being ok with concept that we are unable to accept ourselves as bad person, as stupid ones, as non competent ones. I think this part if what is missing from intrusive thoughts and cognitive distortions - how we see and perceive ourselves and others is distorted. With intrusive thoughts we are like a tree that grew into crooked tree, instead of being straight like other trees. With cognitive distortions we are like a tree that was pruned off too much, so it doesn't have branches or leaves - instead it only has the wishful thinking, fantasies and desires to extend itself through imagining and controlling phantom branches. It comes down to making decisions that are free from other people - that come from ourselves, with all mistakes and dumbness that we are not to be ashamed or embarrassed about - especially if we invested time and experience in it. We come to place where we are happy, satisfied with our errors and feel on par with other people, we do not see them superior, threatening or more competent or better than ourselves. We do not automatically go along with their proposals, we are ok with denying their requests and saying no - especially if we took all things into consideration. The more we feel on par with others, the more relaxed we will feel, calmer and we can tell people off, being frank, honest and authentic. This self worth part is missing from CBT.
I realized that many anxieties and fears can be healed by embracing our wrongness, the dark shadow (Jung). Being afraid to be bad person (someone who makes errors, who have shortcomings that needs to be hidden from other observation and criticism) drives us to toxic perfectionism. It disable us to defend ourselves when we are accused of something unfair, we become too nice - always seeking people approval (due to external validation, since our own self worth is bad by default) and we set ourselves as the perfect targets for manipulators, exploiters and narcissists, such toxic people sniff out "good and nice" people who are afraid to be bad.
We were programmed by dysfunctional environment to equate being bad with not complying with authorities figures, or someone whom we see as superior. There is dis-balance of what is bad behaviour by its definition. And toxic people exploit this. They rape our need to be good and kind to everyone, even to evil people.
Problem is that this sets us up for being inferior, and we give up on our tasks, dreams, and we focus on bad, negative and manipulative people - in order to be a good person who always do good. We attract bad people who always demand fixing neverending problems, pleasing them, never making them angry.
Yeah, I've dig in and analyzed what I feel that, it's because I experience it like this :
- it's because other person's argument (no matter what it is) is like an order to me, the ultimate command. Their words are solid, I see it as the correct ones (while I am by default broken, wrong and incorrect due to toxic shame).
So I come into social situation already without a sense of right and wrong that is dependent upon what other people want and need and their opinions. It goes so far to pre-emptively make decisions and actions to avoid other people being angry or critical to me. Automatically if they complain, criticize or nag - I see it as the ultimate proof that I am wrong about anything, and instantaneously my inner critic comes into the pact with their notion, words and demands (similar to Vichy in France collaborating with nazis). And it is not about me being stupid or having low education - it is they pinpoint, pick and focus on my real and objective deficiencies, shortcomings and my errors, me not being perfect - they sniff it out and simply put it in the spotlight like any manipulator would, consciously or unconsciously (or I see it like it is the central place, we both see the subject of my deficiency as the only thing in the world that is important) - and I shut up, I self censor, I do not argue back, I do not stick for myself, I do not enter conflict - instead I fawn, people please, enter into seeking approval. Toxic shame emits strong sense of embarrassment which disables me to make a scene, to yell back in the case if the person is extremely rude.
And all this inner collaboration with the "enemy" goes unnoticeable, it is simply natural flow of events, thought line thinking. So even if I remember to look at my mistakes, shortcomings as something normal - it doesn't help. Even if I remember the inferiority complex facts - it doesn't help to shake off the other person opinion, comment or criticism, it stays stuck and it is going rotten attached on my body, like an apple stuck on human insect in The Metamorphosis, a novella written by Franz Kafka.
What I learned this year, that this is part of Complex Trauma. I thought it was social anxiety, but toxic shame is slippery and it spreads. In childhood I learned to be obedient and see other people as normal, as my guidance - especially if they exhibit anger or any strong emotions or unkindness. It is a recipe for serving mentally ill people, exploiters and narcissists, because I grew up in such environment, to be slave to other people.
Complex Trauma taught me that in my case other people who are rude, criticizing and nagging that they trigger me into fight-flight mode, which is fawning in my case. So Polyvagal theory states that in triggering state, I should be aware that my thinking is tainted, it is prone to cognitive distortions and my actions, thoughts and decisions will be wrong if I do not see reality objectively as possible. Instead of going with the flow - that I stop self censoring myself and start to defend myself without going to another extreme - being hysterical. It is about collecting information before jumping to conclusions and harsh decisions based on fears. Complex Trauma teaches us that we lack self worth and this is something to be focused on to develop.
This is important topic for codependents, without being aware what is going on, we repeat the wrong patterns that we were ingrained in childhood, we act like under hypnosis.
thanks for making this video!
And in the end I end up as adult who is afraid of living. I feel tremendous shame and negative feelings and emotions if someone is hysterical, nervous and demanding - and especially when I can't do what they ask me to do (due to my fears, errors, shortcomings or simply not knowing how to do what they ask me). I am afraid to say honestly that I do not know something, because I was severely verbally abused in my past when I didn't know something. I know now that I have to be honest, I know I have to alarm and alert rude people, but I get intrusive thoughts from my past experiences where I had to deal with angry people and these come back to me as flashbacks - especially in moments when I need to do something new or scary.
I feel scared to live because I find interaction with people too emotionally charged. Other people who are hysterical and people who might be hysterical. I can't snap out of it, it is as if I am under hypnosis, and I am aware of what is going on, but I can't change the course of my feelings and emotions and thoughts - they are running their own phobia show inside me and I obey them, so I isolate myself. And if I need to deal with people I stick to fawning response - even though it doesn't work all the time, at least sometimes it makes people less angry, irritated or violent if I do not disturb them.
That's how codependency feels like/plays out for me. It sucks.
Interesting, this made me think about being tricked. I do end up very easily tricked, but I realized now it is as a defense mechanism. I always wondered why am I so naive. Now I know;
For me, I expect to be ashamed by others, attacked and this puts me in automatically in defense mode, expecting to be assaulted verbally or physically. Ironically, being hyper-vigilant instead of safety, this expecting of the worst scenario makes me easy to be tricked - because fawning makes me to soothe the other people in any way - even to be tricked by others, so that they take whatever they want, do whatever they want, anything to avoid being harmed by them. So I choose avoidance and isolation as the best way to solve this fear, and if I can't avoid people, I go along with whatever they want. This is highly dangerous and very dysfunctional yet it seems very logical, safe and the only alternative to isolation from people when I am around people. Due to social anxiety and CPTSD, I do this trauma bonding unconsciously, I feel fear and then I go to fawning pattern automatically, as I learned it to be the best way to deal with hysterical people. When in hyper-arousal state, I automatically fawn. I do not see that I will be tricked, I only want to escape other people, and their negative emotions as primary goal. I guess exploiters and manipulators sniff out traumatized people like me and have a feast on people who fawn. This has got to change. When I feel scared, I feel like in hypnosis, I do not see the whole picture, I focus only on immediate danger and fixing the problem in any way - including being tricked and exploited by others.
Without making invisible bonds with others, others would not hurt us so much, we would not seek others for answers and guidance.
Instead of external referencing, we should be guided by our thoughts, opinions and decisions that are based on our own judgement, not out of fear what someone will say, react, criticize, shame, nag or assault.
And that is the problem - we are unable to trust ourselves, so narcissists and manipulators sniff out this inability of ours to trust our own judgement. This needs to be reversed, we can start by not self-censoring ourselves anymore.
Our inner critic takes their side in belittling us, and we are unable to see the true reality - that there are mentally ill people out there that cause harm to others just for fun, for this concept is very foreign to us, and we reject it since we were raised in such toxic environment. We see others as superior, better, we seek others for our guidance, validation and approval - so we allow them to do whatever they want. Our cognitive distortions play crucial role in this dysfunctional mindset. We were raised to believe that our mistakes are the worst event that could happen on Earth, and we need to follow, listen and be guided by others, especially if others are rude, hysterical or violent. We were taught to believe we must be perfect in anything, even if it is done for the first time. Toxic shaming programming, that we were exposed while growing up, destroyed our self worth and now as the result - we feel worthy only if the other person is approving of us. The toxic shame programming is so strong that even if we are aware of this fawning response, it is automatic for us, it is familiar and it is pattern ingrained in our behaviour, thoughts and emotions.
It is so strong, that it is hypnosis. And we need to be awaken to what is going on.
I never liked chaos, I see myself as someone who brings order into disorder, even physically by feeling uneasy in crowded room (with hoarding issue) that needs cleaning and throwing gargage out.
For me, codependency is being addicted to worry, rumination about something scary. I can't shake it off, I can't stop about some person who is angry or display irritation over some my mistake or imperfection, shortcoming.
addiction as word implies my will - but this is more like leech that you can't shake off from your mind.
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This is one great problem with mental issues. We all have our definitions, and this is problem for itself.
This means, his father probably had his own definitions, rationalization, he had his own explanations what is going on. Probably there was environmental and media pressure. For example, boys need mum figure to have perfect life. Or, boys need discipline for it is ok to be harsh to child sometimes. And if his father never went through abuse, it is impossible to realize the damage narcissist will create to innocent child - so you ignore the red flags and minimize them.
This lack of definitions is our problem too regarding codependency. If we suffer from codependency, it is a clear sign we observe reality through cognitive distortions, our explanations, rationalizations, intellectualizations and minimizations make and create problems for us. This is why we seek answers and look at this videos, to get clear picture, to get information, to get definitions. Which is codependency itself. We do not trust our intuition. We do not trust our feelings, we think we are snowflakes, as we were explained by our toxic environment. So we look outside to tell us who we are, where we are and where should we go.
However, if it is done constantly and consistently, it turns quickly into codependency and being pushover, people pleaser, seeking approval, being scared of other people, being scared of negative emotions from other people - since you do not do anything if someone hurts you, blames you, it gives green light for abusers and manipulators to exploit you -
so in order to avoid all these side-effects, I would add one important detail: it is important as well to speak, talk, be honest and being authentic.
If someone is irritating, it is always good to let them know how we feel. At least when we doorslam them, they will know the reason why we cut contact. And it will give them a chance to change wrongdoings. I am not talking about endless arguing, and fighting - it is simply about being honest with other people. It may be one-time message.
Shutting up every time and self censorship leads to low self worth, feelings of inferiority and social anxiety. Because letting other people go with their temper tantrums, it turns us into submission, external validation, external referencing, introjection. Being silent gives approval for their wrong ideas, faulty ideas, for their future bullying. They get wrong ideas also that their negative emotions can be used to control other people, so them being total jerk is being reinforced by our silence and passivity.
So I learned to solve this issue/dilemma how to deal with hysterical people by fawning (people pleasing). That's the reason, the reason to people please is not the manipulation or getting someone like me - in fact I would love that I am in no contact with those people, that I do not have to deal with those people at all. Never again. Fawning is there only as a tool to pre-emptively avoid aggressive attack from others.
I know this is a part of extreme social anxiety, avoidance (fear of criticism). When I can't avoid, isolate and withdraw from difficult people, I use people pleasing as a way to deal with someone rude.
Being in contact with such people is like having a stain on me that I can't scrub off, it is like being drowned in toxic shame and you can't find land, you just float in it. It's the feeling of embarrassment, and guilt of doing something wrong, a mistake, shortcoming or not having enough information - that other person use as a way to attack me, ashame me and mock me. So it is not like I can defend myself. Whatever such people claim is objectively true. I did make some small mistake, I did not handle it well, I was not perfect. And I do not know how to deal with that situation when I am being scorned, criticized - other than either avoidance or people pleasing. I know other people forget about it, and they don't fret about it. For me, it just stays and lingers, I feel very responsible about any task that I do, I want to do it perfectly and probably due to Complex Trauma - I learned I must be perfect in anything - which sets me up for feeling anxiety and failure in anything - since I know intelligently that mistakes are natural part of life, yet accompanied wave of shame for not being perfect is too much to bear.
That's where people pleasing stems for me, that's the source.
I've learned I feel good when I depend on other people approval and when I do everything in my power to like me and that I serve them. That is the programming I got from narcissistic environment. And other people do not need to be narcissists - anyone will love to have scapegoat handy, servant at hand, easy target to bully and mock, and pushover to dump all tasks and trash on.
I also know what I need to be authentic and speak up - I try to do it more often, but old habits die hard. System within is wired to serve others and to trauma bond. Low self worth makes me depend on others, their words appear as command and ultimate truth from my distorted perception, coupled with cognitive distortions.
So I think people pleasers need to learn how to respond quickly to criticism in the right way, to express our opinion and needs, and to evaluate the other person and the situation. Fears will make us over-react and see danger where there is none. In order to do that I guess we should not see others automatically as superior, correct and valid.
other people are not that much important, they have their reasons to be jerks sometimes. Natural reaction would be to say it out loud, to warn and alert them when they act as jerks, especially if that kind of person is speaking to us in our face. Avoidance prevent this natural reaction. We shut up instead and we self-censor and then we analyze too much. This is wrong learned response, wrong learned reaction to negative people.
If we analyzed that we have hard time to trust other people instead of boundary - paradoxically this puts great power in other people hands. They now have the power to make us feel distrustful, avoidant, bad, depressive, irritated. So our focus, our cognitive distortions, our learned obligations, our inner critic are actually distorting and twisting up our reality and how we see other people. The better way would be to scan a possible uncomfortable person or event, to gather as much data as we can - instead of making sudden yet long term decision such as running, hiding away immediately at the first sign of danger - real or imagined.
Our obligations, our sense of duty and sense of justice is set to incredibly high standard, that is unrealistic, and it should be lowered down. Our sense of getting hurt and experiencing pain is also set too high, and it is unrealistic, we need to get more tolerant to uncomfortable, ugly or disgusting people and social settings. That might imply getting new idea, proposing solutions (without fixing or solving anyone's problem) that we see fit, removing ourselves when we feel stuck, staying on when we feel urge to run and hide away. That is hard - because of old habits, we repeat old learned behaviour that worked before that helped alleviate anxiety, so we will likely repeat it again. Our thoughts are making it also hard - beliefs, biases, fallacies, cognitive distortions, make us believe in lies and we obey our thoughts automatically, without checking if they are anxiety based on lie and fear. So another task to combat avoidance would be to be as much objective. To be honest and authentic, instead of engaging in passive aggressive behaviour.
Avoidance is intolerance of someone's criticism. That's all that it is. Unfortunately toxic shaming programming due to Complex Trauma, made this more complex than it really is. We think we are by default wrong and inept. So we create trauma bonding - other are superior from our perspective, they appear to be fearless and perfect, while we think we are not. This sets us up to be manipulated, bullied and abused very easily. We believe in lies. We obey the lies in our head and from other people. The only way we can become tolerant to criticism is to realize our self worth. The spell of other people and our own distorted intrusive thoughts have over us must be broken.
They would not be narcissist/abuser/manipulator/exploiter if they are not masters in disguising themselves. Their whole meaning in life is to parasite on easy targets.
That is one thing worth mentioning.
Another thing is that being pushover, from my experience - is learned response due to Complex Trauma childhood programming - being raised in narcissistic environment, that I am programmed into being scared, being hurt and attacked if I expressed my opinion and self worth - so it was destroyed very early on. Instead of self worth, I got programmed to fawn when faced with someone aggressive.
So once I am aware of this exploitation and psychopaths out there - natural solution might seem to hold grudge, having resentment, being antagonistic - and being aggressive to match the attack and sociopaths out there - which is ironically how they become toxic themselves.
So I learned that solution is not in anger nor in being drama queen and being hysterical.
It is exactly the one thing that psychopaths hate - being honest, being authentic, pointing out the truth - pointing out the elephant in the room. They spread toxic shame through lies and using personal information - and cognitive distortions to shame the target into submission.. So the best way to fight back is not to self-censor, it is saying out the obvious - and critically - to identify the virus - which means - not to argue with them, not to try to find solutions - because they do not want cooperation, it is about cutting contact whenever possible, or limit time, not giving them any extra minutes if we are unable to cut contact (due to job, service, help etc).
It is just about pointing it out. They hate it. it will trigger them narcissistic rage - but it is not about shaming them, it is not about inventing or belittling them or cursing them - it is simply about pointing out the obvious. Shakespear said "Be just and Fear not". IF we did not do anything wrong, if we do not have anything to hide, if we can admit our mistakes, shortcomings as natural and normal - they are the ones who are wrong, who exploit others and are hysterical - so we have the power to point out the obvious, and let them go, avoid them.
Being pushover is actually a good approach to identify the virus - people who are psychopaths. It is like laboratory litmus test - it will react only to bad people out there. The ones who are usually hidden and hard to recognize - and they can wreck havoc on your life if you let them in. I'd say this is better way to frame the pushover problem, to identify what is really going on here.
Normal people know their limits. They would stop - they have been raised in good homes, they know when to stop. Normal people would not torn your arm if you give them finger.
Problem with being pushover is not in pushover - it is in individuals who are doing the pushing.
I see pushover problem that way...
"Confrontation is different in workplace"
dynamic is very different in workplace. Yes, worker is not payed to chat and share personal stuff. It is about being focused on work rather then intimacy and personal issues not related to work itself.
Would manager make the job complete and done if they gossip all the time, make tribes, bully and exploit their position to be tyrannical to certain workers? The problem is where these lines are crossed. I don't think that shutting up and not pointing out the obvious is healthy. People always get wrong idea, people get wrong impressions, wrong conclusions, they make shortcuts in understanding daily events so they make biases and fallacies to full up the unknown - and the only way they get the whole picture is through information - we are the ones that can tell our side and clear up any misunderstandings and wrong conculsions. If we shut up, if we are afraid to speak out, they will get the wrong picture. They will accuse us of something we did not do, and our silence will only confirm this false conclusions, building up the anger and resentment on both sides. So I'd say speaking up the truth is critical in workplace, too. Of course, if it is done in kind manner, without temper tantrums.
One example would be the last year's news about the never aired interview with Denzel Washington and Katie Couric. She asked him about his Hollywood life, and he got hysterical and angry because of that question, and his response hurt her because she felt his anger came out of nowhere and he dump it on her without clear reason why. She was simply doing her job, asking normal questions, as in her every past show, asking regular, standard questions - and he had some delusions and illusions in his mind, so much that he actually quoted one of his lines from previous Hollywood movie during his temper tantrum rage on Katie - and so the interview was stopped and it was never broadcasted - and it left Katie with emotional scar, she hold on to it for 14 years, she finally talk it out in 2020 about what happened.
This is what we, kind people do. We shut up. Someone is angry, and we shut up. We are afraid of confrontation because it scares us, it push us out (Polyvagal theory) into 4F response (freeze, fight, flight, fawn) - and we shut up. We do not confront. We do not engage in conflict, because we get scared (and scarred) as we did in our childhood when we were raised to be obedient, nice and good - and this restrictive programming restrains us now in our adulthood.
Adult do not shut up - if something is wrong - and if the other person is speaking in your face, bluntly standing on the other side - you speak back to him. Don't hold back. It is open communication, they are angry - they will be irrational, but to us it will appear rational and this is why we shut up. If someone is telling something straight to us - this is a calling sign for us to engage in communication. Shutting up will close this, and many people will believe we are at fault, we are wrong and they are correct/right in their accusations. They will interpret our fear as confirmation for their delusions. Most of people are ego-centric, they can't grasp the pain in other people, and that they might be totally wrong with their conclusions. Your silence confirms their illusion of hate and anger.
We think they are valid (better, competent, stronger) simply because they yell. Because this is what we learned in our childhood. We got punished if we spoke out and tell how it is, and now we copy-paste this unhealthy response in our adulthood, unwittingly creating our own inferiority complex. IF we are good people - if we do not do anything wrong- if our mistakes are the result of accident and not being expert or not being perfect yet - it is not because we are evil or do bad things on purpose, we should not hide, isolate and shut up. We should speak up. The other person may be hysterical and irrational, and thus try to influence us into becoming unkind, loud, angry - but we can pinpoint the obvious truth. "No one is perfect" for example. "I did not know all information so I made mistake".
Or in the case of Katie Couric - she might respond to Denzel "I see Hollywood question is bothering you for some reason, I do not understand why." - and repeat it. But she didn't. She was in shock and ended the interview. She ended up harbouring resentment, fears and depression due to this incident. She called it the most horrifying experience in her professional life.
I label the other irrational people as 'external factor'. This means we cannot understand other people - we try to explain them from our perspective, but this is faulty conclusion, a bias, fallacy. For example, if I am good person, I will have hard time to accept there are psychopaths out there who exploit and harm others just for jollies. So other people may appear kind to us, they try to help us, and we trust them - but there are manipulative people out there who are psychopaths, narcissists or have borderline issues - and they don't care about the outcome, they only care to create drama and to parasite on our kindness. We think we are dealing with normal healthy people - because they appear to be so on the surface, and we egocentrically judge others from what we know in ourselves, but their anger, rage and aggressiveness trigger our Complex Trauma issues - and we shut up. We do not confront. We don't want to hurt them, they gaslight themselves to be a victim that they programmed us to believe in their lies.
In my case, I find that the most distress, the most psychological pain, the most fears and anxieties stem from me being quiet and shutting up to unfairness, I never pinpointed the elephant in the room - due to my desire to be kind person, not to hurt the other person that appears helpful and kind most of the time, I do not want others to feel the exact pain and hurt that I feel when other people are confrontational and critical - I think this is good practice, good solution to any social issue to not rock the boat, but it is not, it is a trap. The truth must come out. I noticed that some people get quit hysterical or they simply turn their back and walk away when they are rude - this is because they are scared of the truth. They appear stronger, valid and correct if they display temper tantrum or make a fuss and run away - but this is clear sign of their own fault, evil, wrongdoing and deliberate mistakes.
Another issue is resentment. Having a sense of justice and right and wrong, that I must prove my point and that I pontificate others, that I should correct others, that is my duty to pinpoint other's mistakes - is also a trap. When I shut up, I do this in my head - I fight about what is moral and why people are evil - and it turns into intrusive thoughts - it is unhealthy to be antagonistic. We do not need to fix other people - that is one sign of codependency and trauma bonding that keeps us from confrontation in order to be a nice person who helps others. So when someone is deliberately talking in our face - making accusations- mocking us - this is the only moment when they need to hear the truth and to be fixed.
So I think the solution is in the middle - ignoring will make it worse (pretending that I am not bothered by rude people and that it is not relevant, significant for me to speak up) but if we speak out the truth and then when we ignore the irrational reactions from others - is better way to use ignoring. Because,
Einstein said once "Weak people revenge. Strong people forgive. Intelligent People Ignore." But ignoring the wrong accusation fester. Pretending that it is small thing - becomes big thing later on through our resentments, grudges and pouting - that will make us unable to react when it is too late. It would be the same as to ignore fascism in politics - it will not go away by ignoring, it will only become stronger, because it feeds itself on silence and fear of majority.
Fear of confrontation is a part of social anxiety, avoidance issues - so ignoring conflicts makes our mental health unstable, too.
And fear of criticism is mark of social anxiety. Perhaps, inability to deal with judgement is some kind of condition. A faulty concept that we never explored or handled inside our head. It is like we have a piece of hardware inside our head that we never learned to use and activate - so now we experience and feel it as a problem in daily life, as we interact with people. So if we can define what is the issue, we can look at it from another frame of mind.
For example,
having irritation about judgement - if it is defined as Social anxiety - than we are actually talking about the fear of criticism hiding behind it - and than this means that an individual is having issue with resilience to stress (which means that person lacks boundaries) - and lack of boundaries mean that person is triggered by something that prevents saying no, and to express their opinion and make judgement about something. So it is a loop. It also means that there is "external factor" - it alarms that there is some difficult, aggressive person that is too judgemental, too rigid, too dominant - and we get irritated by that person due to trauma from childhood. So annoyance about judgement hides the whole world of issues underneath it, it is like iceberg that we see on the surface, but there is huge hidden iceberg under the surface.
I found that if I am annoyed by someone's opinion, and this annoyance signifies that they have power over me. They have the power to make me feel distressed, angry, annoyed by their words and opinions. I learned this is called "external referencing" - where I see other people as valid, competent and strong, while I am inferior. So their words, opinions are like deer staring at headlight, I cling onto it and I can't take my focus away from them. This is trauma bonding, by-product of growing up in dysfunctional environment - where I was programmed to obey to others, and everything I think and say is worthless and ashamed.
So being annoyed by judgement signals that we do not trust ourselves, we don't believe in ourselves, we don't have self worth, we don't believe we are competent enough to handle life - and this is why other people words and opinions have so much power over us.
And these are all lies. It is by-product of toxic shame, someone made us believe we are by default unworthy human beings - and now we can't handle criticism, because it expose our unworthiness that we try to hide. It is picking on inner wound. And obvious solution is - to accept that we are not perfect and allow ourselves to be stupid, with flaws and mistakes.
This is the problem right there. They don't wear label on their forehead. They would not be manipulators if they go straight to you and tell you in their face they will exploit you.
First they scan you in detail. They ask personal questions too soon and there are other early red flags. To a person who never experienced narcissist or paradoxically to adults who were raised in narc environment - this will feel natural and normal and daily part of interaction. Later they will exploit our weaknesses, they will gaslight to cover up their actions, and they will include love, attention showering a lot to sprinkle and sugarcoat their evildoings. They will never admit anything and they will not follow unwritten social rules - and most crucially they will never feel bad, pain or hurt due to lack of empathy.
This is what I describe as virus being recognized, it is the same as virus in nature. Sometimes the body does not recognize virus. Sometimes the body wrongly recognize viruses/parasites and so we get allergies - over-reactions and isolation, withdrawal - social phobia as being hyperalert to threat.
This becomes part of disorder - we lose sense of right and wrong, we lose sense of pain and hurt, we get too much sensitive in areas where we should recognoze objectively whether we really deal with bad people or our illusions, biases, fallacies and wrong perceptions/conclusions, and on the other hand we get to dull and passive - and we do not do anything - when we should react and reject bad people.
My own experience:
I had colleague at work who become very intimate from the start, talking very intimate issues in order to gain trust based on her victimhood. Then it started - she started giving orders, commands, complaints, nagging, telling me I am weak - ashaming me toxically, later telling she didn't say it, and in the same time having days where she displayed empathy, care and regular friendship. It left me confused because in cycle, she would have temper tantrums and be very unpleasant and rude. She said bluntly that she loves drama and thinks men must stop and confront her or she will torture them. This haunted my for years, only 3 years later after we split from the work I found out she was borderline (her behaviour fit all the traits). At the time I could not recognize manipulation - even though she said it bluntly in the face. it is because a) we are good people ourselves and we judge other people based on our inner values, which do not include hurting other people, this is why it is hard to reject and cut contact because b) prior to borderline discovery, I would convince myself that honeymoon phases are proofs that she is a good person, that sometimes had painful reactions that are normal because of her childhood trauma and her being HSP. I had trauma myself and I become very sensitive to anything, I know how anxiety feels like and chaos it all brings - so I excuse her all temper tantrums and her aggressive toxic shaming.
That is how manipulators operate. It is like being caught in spider web.
At the time I did not know about external referencing, trauma bonding and introjection nor fawning - so I did not had tools to explain myself the reasons to cut contact or minimize contact sooner.
I actually used my social anxiety/avoidance condition and facts against myself - I was thinking - I am alone, I always run away from people, perhaps these rude people are normal and standard and "I should simply toughen up" and "be stronger", as she explained to me anyway.
Manipulators will break unwritten social rules and norms - they will use sickness, illness, difficulties and their own trauma against other people to control them for whatever purposes.
I think without this knowledge we will tell ourselves, just as you said - I will never let myself to be manipulated - but this attitude is wrong itself. It implies we do depend on other people, as if we are all powerful to recognize bad people and thus never make mistake, and we imply other people are all powerful so they have the power to manipulate us. This mindset is trauma based. Instead, more objective and more "normal" mindset how to see manipulator is - that other people are not that important at all - as it is our self worth.
This means, if someone is consistently rude, if someone is aggressive and use toxic shame - we do not smile to them anymore. We do not make small chat with them. We do not hate them. We do not fix them. We do not engage with them. Also, we do tell them in the face what they are doing. We call them out on elephant in the room, label it. They will throw narcissistic injury fit, because psychopaths never admit they are wrong - but we do not interpret this as proof they are correct, valid and superior. We just explain them we cannot talk when they are in hysteria and move away from them. If we are unable to cut contact (due to job, service, help, finances, shelter) - we must be objective, we should not self censor, and we can be kind and talk calmly to alert them to stop being jerks - and never engage in any friendly manner with them, because they are exploiters and sick.
It is the situation and position when you are accused of something faulty, something that is blown out of proportion. That is manipulation. This is what they do. And our natural reaction is to stop blaming, criticism and shaming - so we shut up, we admit the accusation - not because they are true, but because they are partially true. They take small percentage of mistake and blow it out of proportion - and we agree with it, while 99% of what they say is false. This is how they manipulate us. This is not something you "do not agree with" - this is master work of psychopaths. The only way to stop is the same as for virus - you got to be aware of what is going on and to reject it. If we shut up, if we agree - this will allow the abuse and their attack to hurt us and destroy our mental stability, confidence and with time this will create us to feel we are inept, to develop external referencing and codependency, people pleasing.
but in reality they will never admit this truth, in so much they will impose through gaslighting the opposite - that the target is weak, inept, full of mistake and by default wrong.
So the target will develop inferiority complex based on input from narcissist, as learned in dysfunctional childhood, learned helplessness.
I learned that I can't ground myself is due to external referencing (belief that other people are competent, while I am inept, and others should be reference point for anything - especially those those who are loud, rude or aggressive), introjection (automatically going along with other people words, orders, commands without stopping for a second to question others motives, sanity or intentions) and fawning (going along with others, people pleasing and pushover). Also a special glue that keeps these cognitive distortions (basic beliefs that are totally wrong but appear as ultimate truth) are flashbacks (scenes and audio from the past that replays, or the worst case scenario) that pops up in my mind - and I follow on through it, as it will happen for certain, so I avoid, hide, shut up, self censor as if under hypnosis. This inability to differentiate thought from reality is hypnosis - and I think people who struggle with codependency went through "special training" and "special school" while growing up to develop this "ability" to cognitive fusion. Whatever pops in my mind - it is automatically true and I am unable to confront in my head - so I am unable to confront people in real life - so I end up being codependent.
So I think these concepts should be enlightened and learned about, too.
This means, dysfunctional childhood and narcissistic environment made targets programmed to by hyperalert and hypervigilant. It is hypnosis. It comes as order and command, that we can't shake off. It get stuck like a leech: worry, rumination, intrusive thoughts. it is because targets got their self worth destroyed, so now as adults we are prone to external referencing (others are our guidelines), trauma bonding (we grip onto others automatically - their reactions, emotions), introjection (absorbing other people emotions including their anxieties), fawning (people pleasing, codependency and pushover) and learned helplesness (inferiority complex, untrust in own capabilities to handle problems in life). So no wonder there is anxiety, it would be a miracle (or sign of psychopathy and total lack of empathy) if it wasn't there. I would start dealing with those concepts - and anxiety should subside naturally once we develop our self worth and trust in our ability to manage and handle life.
What I found about explaining myself about anxiety, that my explanations of reality around me depends heavily on my flashbacks (I learned about them from Complex Trauma information), toxic shaming programming (dysfunctional environment while growing up) and external factor (manipulative, exploiters, negative people in my surrounding that appear as good, nice, friendly people at start). If these components are present, for whatever reason, my views of reality get distorted, because I create biases and fallacies, cognitive distortions and they run my explanations of events, feelings of everything around me.
For example,
my greatest anxiety are related to avoidance issues: people who are hysterical towards me due to my mistake or shortcoming or lack of information, and/or people who criticize only for the sake of ashaming others to control them, pinpointing at mistakes and shortcomings that are natural and they use their power, status, position to manipulate and humiliate others demanding perfection and world to be perfect according to their own imagined ideas.
So - my default explanation of how to deal with those people is usually to fawn automatically and consider others superior due to external referencing and trauma bonding, learned in childhood. When afraid, I seem I can't remember to be objective and see reality objectively - for this example - that such aggressive people do not hold gun to my head, that they do not have any power to control me and what I speak/think/express, and that I actually am allowed to speak back and defend myself, to react naturally to black swan event (instead of suppressing my reactions in order to be people pleaser, nice guy), and that I have power to speak, voice out, and state the obvious - the elephant in the room.
So when I feel anxious/afraid, when amygdala takes over my decision process, I can't recognize the worst case scenario other than I must serve others or having fears such as I'll be fired from my job so I must serve others and obey them and be pushover.
Instead as you suggest in this video - worst case scenario would be that when I feel anxious, that I recognize that actually I act anxious because of hysterical people (the source of my avoidant anxieties) have some weapon to hurt and cause me pain - and this invisible weapon is the cause of my anxiety that I feel. This imagined weapon is in my head. In reality - they don't have any weapon at all.
This is where flashbacks come into play - I have something like video and audio short snippets of fearful event from real or imagined events that I have seen/read or heard about before - and I get automatically anxious, simply by having those flashbacks popping up out of nowhere. Or if someone is toxically shaming (yelling, cursing me). Or if I miss all the red flags and thus I have no idea that the other person who is communicating with me is someone I should not take seriously and I should not believe what they say - I do not recognize that they are criminally insane, psychopaths, narcissists... In all those 3 variations I act as if other person has some weapon and I am under clear and present danger so I must fawn to them or freeze.
And to make things more complex, when amygdala runs the show, I tend to hold resentment, grudge and antagonism that additionally distorts reality and make me focus on other people enough to control me (my emotions depend on their responses).
So, yeah, your advice about worst case scenario might work - but only if we are not anxious, and when c-ortex is in charge- for example now, at home, watching your video, when I am calm and there is no anxiety to start up cognitive distortions and antagonism that will explain reality in wrong, biased, partial way.
My greatest avoidance issue is to self censor myself and to shut up while other person would accuse me of something untrue or partially true - and I never defended myself for the sake of peace or in order not to rock the boat. I realized in past year that this inability to talk is extremely damaging psychologically. Inability to act, to defend myself.
And I was not aware that my worst fear was that when in confrontation or conflict with someone, that I unconsciously imagine a bully holding a gun (or any other lethal weapon) and threaten my life. When anxious, I act as if bullies' words are their guns and that their words can hurt. But in reality they don't - objectively the worst thing that could happen is that they yell and scream - and being hysterical is sign that they are mad.
Kinda when I think about this, at the core of my avoidance issue - is that I think I am unable to speak back and that other people anger is embarrassing for me. I can talk back, I can state the truth. With external reference information, now I know about introjection - that I feel ashamed for other people actions, words and emotions. It's learned helplessness from dysfunctional environment while growing up (too strict parenthood). And it can be unlearned - or at least being mindful what is going on when scared.
I learned that when I have no alternative choice to hide away and therefore when I must engage in s-ocial settings - I fawn, engage in people pleasing behaviour, I am pushover, I shut up and self-censor myself, avoid conflict, and thus I am super easy target for manipulators, bullies, psychopaths - which enforce belief that in general the other people are scary and will criticize (ashame) others just for fun.
"deep belief there is something wrong with you so you hyper focus on others criticizing you"
I learned that I hyper-focus on other due to Complex Trauma - that I engage in external referencing, belief that other people are competent, strong and better in any way than me - so I see others as guidelines for anything, so I trauma bond with other people - any I don't believe I am competent to make choices and my mistakes are very wrong and unacceptable. This realization helped me to catch this cognitive distortion in real time and I realized I can lean on myself, my decisions, my experience - especially when I see that others are not so competent, clever, intelligent, in so much that there are a lot of idiots out there that should not be "followed" and looked upon as heros or leaders at all.
I started to list on my blog things that I do automatically in outside situations. I made 3 columns, what is easy to change, simply by being aware and what is more difficult to change - because when I am out there, outside of comfort zone, I do things automatically, as learned helplessness, and my amygdala prevents me to consider and see that there are actually other options available instead of living in fear, ruminating, hiding and fawning.
I've been following inner critic topic for years now, there are some claiming the inner critic is actually voice to propel us to do and motivate us to the exact thing we feel resistance, but you said it what inner critic is doing - he "explains" us it is shit and worthless and we should quit. My inner critic produce incredible amount of overwhelming shame - that I am embarrassed and I should not be exposed to observation of others. And if I stay, I get strong thoughts how I look - that I am dirty, I look cheap, I look ridiculous and I should go away. Or the job that I do is stupid, wrong and that I am incompetent and others are mocking and laughing at me.
The worst part is that there are other people in my environment who actually talk these things out, so inner critic has allies in real world, too.
Actually I've wrote about this phenomena on my blog "The Agreeableness Theory" because he also noticed that it is incredibly relevant concept related to mental health and it has paradox inside it-
in order to be "successful" person - you must in the same time feel good about yourself (which implies being a good person, without having enemies and constant drama&wars and resentment, sulking attitude, grudge) - yet in the same time to satisfy basic Maslow needs, which is impossible to achieve if you are too kind and too friendly with everyone without drama, resentment and enemies.
The problem is what I call external factor - manipulative and psychopaths, narcissists out there, bullies who sabotage our aims, targets and achievements from inside, as much as inner critic does it from inside (Calling ourselves names, producing toxic shame embarrassment feelings that stop us from being social) - and thus putting us in state of hyper-vigilance which is the opposite of "kind" "nice" and "good" person that emotional intelligence talks about.
This is his problem, he merged self esteem with Pollyanna syndrome, toxic positivity. He wants to tell us that self esteem as such is illusion, and he is right from this perspective:
True self esteem means accepting our weaknesses, when we have inner critic voice that tells us that we are crap and that we look like crap, it is to accept having this shame and guilt, yet to still go forward. It is about accepting there are sociopaths out there that will make our life miserable, yet to feel good about ourselves even when they use our mistakes and shortcomings against ourselves. Toxic positivity does not allow this - as he sees it, toxic positivity will set us up for disappointment, having too high expectations, too high standards and we will feel neurotic when the reality bites us.
He connects self esteem movement in America with people who build up their worth on external referencing and paradoxically narcissism. And ironically that is not emotionally intelligent perspective to look at self esteem from this point of view. This is why he mentions the manager who doesn't care about other people feelings as example that being too nice doesn't pay off in the real world - but being a jerk without emotions will pave you success in life. I think this example is too generalized and thus faulty.
Good manager should not be friends with workers, because workers themselves are not all good people and there are manipulators and exploiters among them, too. Without clear standards of job ethics, manipulators would exploit their bosses, too. But this does not mean that boss should be robot. I guess - he will appear as jerk if he tells the truth and express his demands. If he has low IQ, he will make unreasonable demands and he will be jerk by being idiot. But if he makes reasonable demands that doesn't feel good for lazy workers, or for manipulators - then he will be jerks to toxic people.
What he wanted to say about rude manager example is that people will judge us anyway, no matter how intelligent we are, no matter how kind we are. He tells us that we can do everything correct yet fail in the same time. But this does not mean we should give up or stop doing what we do - simply because it doesn't align with toxic positivity standards of how life should look like in imaginary scenario.
Yet, to prove he is wrong about this rude but successful managers - we have seen extreme examples that for example Bill Cosby or Epstein did end up in jail, even though they were jerks to other people, they disrespected women and they lived in era and society before Me too movement years that turned blind eye to their abusive and arrogant behaviour. They both were successful sociopaths in their time, but they did end up in jail for their criminal lack of empathy.
What he wanted to say is that self esteem comes out of ironically not having any and being perfectly fine with it. It may include being ok with not being emotionally perfect. And that paradoxically being aware of not being perfect will make you perfect if you accept it as normal, not something to be ashamed of, or regard it as sign to stop everything, run and hide due to shame of not being perfect.
It is the same with self-confidence. A person who tries to impress others, trying to over-compensate and labels other person as toxic to set up boundaries - is actually unconsciously building up very non-confident persona. True self confidence comes from being ok with yourself as you are, and building up your image for your own ideals, values and beliefs, that are not executed for the sake of impressing other people, but only to sooth yourself.
Even though Jordan Peterson claims a lot of controversial stuff that is much untrue, his views are from another dimension, and as such are valuable, to check with our learned knowledge and test it from different standard - that makes his words valuable.
This is very radical truth if accepted and lived in real life.
Lies are not only superficial, such as being cruel to ourselves. Lies are trying us to quit and never try anything. Without these lies taken for granted, we will automatically make boundaries, because we don't go with the flow of aggressive rhetorics trying us to hide away, shut up and isolate. Without these protective measures, we will be exposed to hurt, and other people who will try to break our resistance - because other people use toxic shaming as a tool to control others, the same way inner critic is doing it to ourselves.
Inner critic has allies in outer world in form of toxic people, manipulators and exploiters. Without backing up and living in fear and hiding away, we will be exposed to their tools of causing pain. Also, apart from hurting others, they will tell lies that appear as truth. So we got to be prepared for these by-products of not believing in lies any more: conflict, confrontation, manipulation/control masked as shaming. Inner critic and outer critics will do their best to break our spirit and make us passive and isolated, because this way we are easy target and manageable.
Pushovers like me should recognize that the fears are not sign of weakness, it is a signal inside that detects bullshiters and psychopaths. It's easy so succumb to fears if the anxiety if interpreted as alarm to retreat. I learned a lot later in life that instead of shutting up and self-censorship, the correct way to be honest, genuine and authentic is the anti-dote to being too nice. I was convinced I had either 2 choices - either to obey or to fight, as if there was no third option - speaking the truth.
there are mixed up, dysfunctional, bipolar people who try to satisfy their sick urge inside - for example, to parasite over wealthy man to solve life problems - but if you look closely, the world is made you to believe that you must have money and material things in order to feel good and safe. So the world is screwed up. She just played out scenario that the world set her up being like jerk and have sick goals and abnormal values.
The movie ends up by her realizing she was delusional, I think that part is hero. Not the stuff she done before.
In real life, similar thing is happening to us all. We (most of us) do not go to the extremes - but we are faced both with false and sick messages from our programming about what our goals and values are - and with the world as it is, and trying to combine the two to operate on daily basis. Because no on will stop the world and give you free time to think about what is the best course of action, we are all force fed to make quick decisions on half and incomplete information. We are expected to be perfect, without hurting anyone - and yet we get messages we must complete certain things in order to be happy (such as making money) - so we are guided by our own illusions and delusions, based on what we are being told by society and media what happiness is - and we are expected to achieve it. And since these values are unrealistic, we will make mistakes by trying to achieve it, and we will inevitably hurt other people around us by being hypnotized while we are trying to achieve them - simply by ignoring or exploiting others without being aware what we are doing.
She recognized her false dreams are detrimental and painful to others, and she gave up on this hallucinations - this part is hero part.
This is the core of social anxiety and avoidance. So this means two things:
1) a person is in toxic environment and avoiding triggers (criticism) is a reaction to aggressive and toxic surroundings - so the natural solution is to minimize contact or relocating
2) a person thinks he is in danger, and avoidance and social anxiety is a sort of allergy, self defense mechanism gone haywire, wrecking havoc - which implies to test environment and realize who are people around you - are they real, objective psychopaths
And this does work to defuse tension and handle life - to a certain point. This is actually the official psychiatry stance over toxic people, that there are no toxic people out there, only wounded ones, and that if they hurt us, than we are the problem, since we do not have resilience inside, we are wounded ourselves, we have trauma bonding issues, CPTSD, trauma, external referencing, external validation and introjection, cognitive distortions putting other people on pedastal, inferiority complex issues - so other people can't be blamed for our uncomfortable reactions. This makes sense and it is true...
And...
Then you meet what I call external factor:
manipulators, psychopaths, sociopaths, exploiters, abusers, narcissists, borderliners - and they rape our kindness. They camouflage and gaslight us into believing we are at fault. They use our shortcomings, ordinary and normal errors and mistakes in order to ashame us, they use toxic shame to control us. And if you shut up, if you self-censor yourself, with time you will be programmed by their anger to not point out the elephant in the room, you will be in hypervigilant state of expecting another attack out of nowhere, and the worst of it all - you will live in constant fear, anxiety and inferiority complex, that was triggered by relentless criticism from them, their expectation of us to perform perfect, beyond realistic human standards that can be achieved.
So, compassion and empathy and being positive will work in normal environment, it will work if you are lucky enough to be around healthy individual(s) - but it will become detrimental around scavengers and instigators, these kind of psychopaths are looking out for kind, normal, healthy and peaceful individuals, they see people with their guards down as easy target to be exploited and crushed.
Simply analogy would be to imagine a person from Balkans and a person from Japan stuck on an island due to shipwreck. The island is large enough to live by its natural resources. Very soon, the Balkan person will trash the place around, throwing garbage around, having low standards and capabilities to center himself, with impulses driving him - he will make a living hell for the civilized person. The person from Japan naturally clean their environment, they even don't have garbage collectors because they clean their own streets. So imagine these two worlds being stuck in one place - the Balkan person would exploit the normal and healthy habits of Japanese person. The Japanese person would be careful about throwing garbage (physical and mental one) - while the lazy psychopath would rejoice for having natural servant and cleaner around them, that will clean their mess, chaos that they naturally produce in abundance. The Japanese guy can't go against his natural instincts - so he is abused and exploited by dirty, scavenger sociopath.
This is what is happening in abusive relationships. This is the reason why poor countries do not prosper - because they have King of the hill idiots that sabotage their environments around them - and the solution for people who are not psychopaths - would be to leave them, there is no other solution - to put boundaries if going away is impossible, to minimize contact. The life and cooperation is impossible if the other person is psychopath, they will destroy your life, and being peaceful and having empathy is actually used against you.
Tina Turner tried it, and she flourished after leaving his husband. She tried to get along, not to rock the boat, and the violence just became worse and worse. So toxic positivity is damaging, too. That is life - there are no permanent rules, we are ought to adapt to our surroundings (including leaving it) or face the doom.
And healthy part of our brain see that this people pleasing the bullies is wrong and it produces social anxiety as warning that something is wrong. But the messages from outer world are contradictory, they tell us that we should go to parties (as Peter suggest here). He does not make distinction between good and bad party. He doesn't make us focus and realize that there are people out there that might be exploiting us, people who have borderline and narcissistic issues - yet he lumps it all together - as parties are the top of the world and we have to face our fears of parties and people please others as a way to deal with anxiety.
Peter does not pinpoints the root cause of social anxiety - being traumatized by manipulators and psychopaths. Instead, he ignores that external factor and he gives us "advice" to be friendly. That works in healthy environment. That works in healthy world. That works with healthy people. But the world is not so healthy, and people are not so good. There are bad people out there and social anxious people were traumatized by such people - so instead of party, the better advice would be to be aware from where those social fears stem from. Their source is in being manipulated, and toxically ashamed early on, being programmed into fear from people.
People like Peter ignore this "external factor" (manipulators, exploiters, abusers, narcissists, psychopaths) - and their advice from people who don't understand social anxiety actually sets us up to be people pleasers, pushovers, to fawn, to submit, to serve bullies, to have external validation, to seek approval, to avoid conflict, to avoid confrontation and to shut up to evil. And paradoxically, being pushed into social settings doesn't resolve social anxiety, it only makes us more avoidant and be servants to bullies. Similar to the scene Clockwork Orange (1971) when Alex at the end of movie is brainwashed to be good- that other people abuse him.
This is because the message that was intended to psychopaths is misdirected to social anxious people.
Socially anxious people need the opposite - they need to learn how to express their dark shadow, and no one is showing this because 1) no one would like to teach you how to rule and how to become alpha - because some of us might mis-use the confidence knowledge and become Hitlers 2) psychopaths who know the hidden and secret rules won't share it with you - because people who people please are easy targets to be exploited.
And this is faulty thinking, because people with empathy can't lose empathy, they will feel bad about their actions and how they treat other people. Psychopaths who don't care about others are problem here. And socially anxious people are given the wrong instructions by official authorities (either because they are not aware, or they are psychopaths themselves and they won't let you know the secret how to become boss).
And the secret is - that some people react to temper tantrum, they are triggered and scared of, and thus people can be very easily be used and abused and sheep - other people can manipulate you simply by being loud and obnoxious, that is the secret. Psychopaths use toxic shame, yelling and screaming to control other people. That is their secret.
Toxic shame is tricky - it is not easily defined, so it is excellent weapon and tool to exploit easy targets. Easy target: scared people, people who like other people, people who like to go to parties, who like hanging out, who like kindness and people who like psychological security (no drama, no fighting).
So unknowingly, you might think - ok, then I will be loud and aggressive and scream and be hysterical. But this is the secret too. Without control, you will be punished by society if you are out of control and when you can't control your emotions - unless you direct it to good and kind people, people who are instructed to go to parties for sex, as the only meaning in life, as conservative and right-wing Peter encourage us.
If you have social anxiety - it is simply being a product of bad instructions from childhood. Social anxiety is also a key to understanding that we have something inside, a power - to connect and interact with people on better and deeper level than psychopaths, and this scares them. Social anxiety also is a sign that we can recognize bullshiters and psychopaths very easily. They wear mask otherwise and they can trick masses easily, as they can't trick us, our emotions and reactions reveal them. Then they gaslight us and tell us we are crazy because we feel scared - and they explain us that we should be afraid of our fears (making us more crazy).
I see social anxiety as being hypnotized and programmed into serving psychopaths very early on in our childhood, when we were helpless and we could not deal with trauma and information what came upon us by external factor. So now as adults we have cognitive distortions and faulty and wrong explanations about everything around us, and the society won't give us the cure - because the cure can be devastating for society. Imagine the world where no one would respect each other. Where when driving for example, no one would let you go to main road, because everyone is important in the same time. imagine the world where no one would care for the poor or sick or needy. The cure that social anxious people need is in a small dosage of poison - to lower our explanation of empathy and our wrong explanation need to be kind.
Also, due to faulty programming, we were raised by narcissistic values - believing our pain is very important - so we focus on ourselves (Peter mention this as white elephant). Therefore social anxiety issue is that our values, explanations and perceptions are misaligned and erratic. In some areas we are too generous and too kind, in other areas we are too selfish and learned to play victimhood. In some areas we are being told that we are worthless (toxic shame) - and we get wrong messages how to compensate this worthlessness (for example Peter tries to compensate toxic shame belief we are wrong by default - by going to parties in order to have sex - as the ultimate cure for social anxiety and ultimate meaning of life).
I see social anxiety cure very easy: it is to be authentic, to be objective about reality and what is happening around us, it is about being honest to people, not to hide and to express our vulnerabilities and trust our intuition - if we get bad vibes from people, we are probably right and we should avoid them. Yet in the same time, action and being outdoor is healthy, so if we can't find "normal" people around us to bond, at least we can talk to them - and if they mock and criticize us, instead of believing in our toxic shame that we are crap and that they hate us and will abuse us - that we objectively see what is going on - and if other people talk to us, if they mock us - to see this as conversation, to explain our views and see where it will lead, instead of automatic shutting up and automatic self-censorship.
Complex Trauma made us to trauma bond and seek others, their opinions and words as our commands and our orders, how we should have posture - being defined by other people - that is external referencing. Instead self worth is the key, trusting our own experience, feelings and explanations, even if they are wrong, and even if we make mistake, and even if we are not perfect. Other people will mock and make fun of our mistakes and shortcomings - in order for them to feel good and prove others they are dominant - instead of shutting up - we can talk it out and voice out the elephant in the room, what is really going on. For example, to explain that no one is perfect, that our mistake was not deliberate and we do not want to hurt anyone. When we shut up we comply and we give false impression - people jump to conclusions all the time, so they make biases and cognitive fallacies. Our voice is the only way they can be informed about our side of story, social anxiety makes us shut up and our silence contribute to the evil and bullies to take charge.
Now, all this that I wrote - is completely different aspect than Peter and his "advice" about going to parties as cure for Social anxiety, isn't it?
What I have problem is when you deal with someone hysterical within socially accepted rudeness limits, so they basically abuse you within socially accepted norms. Easy solution is of course to walk away - but what about situations where you can't walk away (due to job, service, help, shelter, finances)?
I think in such situations tolerating the abuse by being quiet and trying to ignore it- is damaging, there is nothing positive in it. There is no growth there.
So we can be uncomfortable - by speaking up and voicing our opinion - but then people can accuse you (gaslight you) of being snowflake or drama queen, or being too sensitive, or they can be aggressive in order to shut us up and censor us.
And I think this is the core of social anxiety - lack of goals in life, being thrown in ocean with waves pushing us around as they come, it is lack of self worth, having other people looked up as heroes and our own validation - even when they are obvious jerks to us, engaging into fawning, people pleasing to deal the impossible situations (where you cannot defend yourself).
"you define it" - analysis leads to paralysis. It is great to be informed and to know what is going on, but this is not solution and it will not help by itself. In fact, more information about anxiety will generate more fears - because problem is the motor inside, it has been damaged in childhood and it doesn't work or it works in wrong way, it is like driving through life with your handbrake on. The knowledge about it will not resolve it. The handbrake is hypothetical, there is no handbrake in real life as handbrake, it is metaphor. So the knowledge that something is wrong and is causing havoc will not help you at first - it will make you even more panicked. Only through exploration and knowledge you can discover what that handbrake is, and without guidance, it may take 40 years! I learned about Complex Trauma, flashbacks, external referencing and trauma bonding and introjection only a few months ago. And I have been reading social anxiety books and all psychological resources since 1997! It took me 24 years to realize what my handbrake was! Books about social anxiety and self esteem only caused me more anxiety and fears - they had detrimental effect because they didn't tell the obvious. And CPTSD is relatively new discovery, it was discovered in 1994, so there are no relevant and helpful information much available out there to begin with.
" Socialy inept" - people with social anxiety already know how to handle social environment, in fact they are acutely aware of the rules. If anyone, people with social anxiety have all the social etiquette, even better than extroverts and party animals out there.
"You won't be paying attention to the person" - this is damaging instruction - it is advice actually for external referencing, and external validation, inferiority complex, introjection, people pleasing and seeking other people approval. This is advice to more social anxiety and self-defeating behaviour.
"If you are socially anxious, one of thing you should do is pay way more attention to the person you're talking to. "
This is bullshit advice, it is advice for fawning. Socially anxious people already do this, this is a part of social anxiety, this is the problem at its core. People with social anxiety are zoomed in to other people, too closely, too much. If anything, zooming out would help more. Social anxiety is fear from criticism, and his advice is - open up and believe in anything that other person is saying. Peterson is saying: They (other people) are gods, while you are inferior because you feel fear emotions. So you should shut up and take every word as your order and command, and you should self-censor yourself.
This is not help, Peterson, this is advice for social anxiety!!
"and maybe something they say is interesting" - that is the point of social anxiety. His explanation is totally unreal view of social world that is generating more social anxiety.
The truth is: There is nothing interesting 99 percent of social time. That is why there is so much criticism, bullying and abuse going on, because there is nothing interesting in social settings, especially in random social gatherings. And Peter's advice is to be acutely focused on other person and listen to something that might slightest be interesting. That is so wrong advice. Jesus Christ! :D This is what happens when someone who has no clue what is social anxiety tries to "help" - give totally wrong advice, unhelpful and detrimental actually.
"People love to be being payed attention to, they really like it" - they don't. People are aware that psychopaths and manipulators use and exploit personal information.
"mastering automated motor movements - eyes, hands, lips, body, watching yourself how to interact" - and before he says to be less focused on yourself. He is contradicting himself. If we are focused on our posture and if we monitor it - it will cause low confidence, because we are telling ourselves that we are wrong as we are, and that we must change in order to appear good and to gain validation and to people please others. This is advice for social anxiety, not against it.
"you're also generating new abstract information that enables you to conceptualize the world in a different way, talk to 50 different people" - this is untrue. People stuck with anxiety are stuck in fear domain, you cannot invent your escape route out of thin air because you are not aware you are being trapped. It all appears real to you and your fears are preventing you from new abstract information. It is being stuck with biases, cognitive fallacies, cognitive distortions, wrong explanations - and these should be handled. New abstract information will not come out by listening someone talking their own ego boring crap stories at parties. :D Thinking about what went in social setting is not generating new abstract information - that is called rumination and this is what people with social anxiety do - they have intrusive thoughts about what happened later on, it turns into anxiety, general anxiety disorder, rumination, PureOCD with time.
"biological potential, capable of generating proteins, put yourself in radical new situation, brain code for new protein" - I guess without information about what is going on inside, everything outside will not help you at all. If you are afraid, if you suffer from anxiety, you will not put yourself in new situations. It is catch 22.
Also, this information means, if you put yourself in abusive situation, your brain would create new proteins. If you set yourself up for failure, hurt, pain, being homeless - that will help you generating new proteins? This guy Peterson - regarding his social anxiety ideas and perception - is quack. Total moron in this area, and he is creating more problems and issues. It is like making money on people in pain by giving them small dosage of truth, while 99 percent of other is crap that doesn't work -and then it makes you come for more advice, paying more books , more lectures. This is unethical, exploiting sick people who seek help.
This is exactly why people with phobias, fears and anxieties, PureOCD - they ruminate and have intrusive thoughts before the event - but if they face it - afterwards they forget the fuss about it, they discard it as fluke that nothing bad happened, and then they focus on some future fearful event - that might be just simple as being outside among people or possibility of coming into contact with difficult person somewhere out there.
What you are talking about is cognitive distortions and that you must be aware of them and then that you explain yourself everything is fine. But.. sometimes things are not fine and bad things happen no matter what precautions you take. And then anxiety creeps back like snake, like Trump on social media.
I see that solution for social anxiety does involve being informed about cognitive distortions and as I said in previous comment, immature ego defense mechanism such as catastrophizing - but this is not the final solution.
I see solution in complex tool kit - that includes de-catastrophizing - along with mental shift. It is about managing the focus. It is about getting levelers in balance, many of them, in many areas - levelers such as on a plane - that you have stable flight, you have to check your data for many instruments be kept in balance.
For example, one of such tool would be zooming out of certain people (rude, obnoxious, loud people) and zooming in to another interest completely devoid of threat. Another tool would be shift in mental consciousness, being aware for example to act like Kim Novak in movie Boys' Night Out (1962) - where she meets Garner in his apartment. Socially anxious person would be quiet, avoid eye contact and have thoughts about him assaulting her sexually. As in movie, she is natural, she talks with him openly, she objects and argues, she listens to him, while socially anxious person would walk on egg-shelves and leave the apartment in dread. Socially anxious person might have assertive self-talk to de-catastrophize before the event - but the act of needing to operate your mind in order to function without fear - is problem itself. The act of engaging into protection and correction is problem itself. It is good to know about de-catastrophizing - but picking up on it will only produce more anxiety and fear - because you will depend on tools that involve picking on your thoughts - is socially anxiety itself. Your thoughts should be as for healthy mind - be free and without involvement of "government" - similar to free market in the West, as oppose to communist governed economies in the Cold War's East.
That is how I see social anxiety healing - being free, not being in prison, not being in a laboratory meddling and picking and monitoring your thoughts. Instead - it should flow naturally, along with your personality and persona - the same way as "healthy" people operate in their minds.
I would put it in simple term: alarm and alert. It goes for narcissists or anyone who is crossing boundaries, making us uncomfortable. As you said in the video, "Call them out on their deception." I discovered this can be explained through concept called "Elephant in the room". Everybody knows it, everybody sees it - but no one pinpoints it. And we should.
Someone commented - that narcs hate transparency. that is the same concept.
And it is true. That is the social skill that people with social anxiety and avoidance are struggling with and it is causing anxiety and difficulties with people. Instead of being transparent, anxious people shut up and self-censor. Instead - since we are not guilty ones, since we are not instigating problems, since we are not evil and bad person - we should be transparent, voice out the elephant in the room, assert that we do not make and create problems, that we should be focused on solving the problem, instead of cycle of drama (cycle of abuse).
I studied this problem of people pleasing (as it is part of Social anxiety) for years, and I have learned about saying no, taking a pause, about cognitive distortions and low self esteem.
I missed deeper psychological knowledge though - that I never took time to learn - until last 12 months. So I learned that when I am triggered, my mind flips to amygdala part of brain and then our brain runs from this fear state, instead of a cortex part of brain that would help us with problems through finding solutions. It is literally like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde persona flipping inside us without being aware of this change- in fearful situations our fearful persona springs up - and it prevent us from healing, and finding resolutions, it keeps us in a state of anxiety, fears and constant drama.
So, it helped to learn for me totally new psychological concepts such as trauma bonding, fawning, Stockholm syndrome, introjection, external referencing, external validation, Polyvagal theory, self worth, Complex Trauma, bias, cognitive fallacies.
When I learned about these and their definitions, with certain time, I caught myself in situation where I noticed that in unfamiliar situation that requires my quick decision (for example, such as driving to unfamiliar place that I must find parking fast) that I do not trust my own judgement, I do not trust my experience, and in the same time I am afraid of making mistake, being judged and criticized - and all of these thought process is unconscious! Consciously what I did feel and what I am aware was being uncomfortable and I interpret these emotions as a threat of being attacked by others - so I naturally solve this dilemma by people pleasing and depending on other person guidance.
So I noticed that I lack self worth and I am afraid of owning up to my mistakes. I expect that whatever I do must be perfect and without mistakes - which is unrealistic.
By learning about fallacies, biases and paradoxes, that no one can be perfect - so everyone makes mistakes, it is just that I perceive others as superior and as my commanders - just because they are not me, that qualifies other people as valid, competent and better in any way. Which is a lie.
This means my perception of the world is distorted - and the solution is to stop putting on a pedestal other people (external referencing/external validation).
And that is the central problem for any mental instability - external factor - other people, people who are manipulators and narcissists and toxic - they are the factor that creates disorder. It is not me. My people pleasing is a symptom, it is not the cause. It is reaction to sick people, to sick environment, it is not instigator of illness. Therefore, solution is about learning how to manage difficult people who manipulate others, how to recognize them, how to cut contact with them, how to deal with them if we are unable to cut contact, how to stand up to them. Learning how to deal with hysterical people in proper manner, to understand why they are hysterical (it is not our fault no matter what they say), to recognize and to deal with hysterical people, being able to search and detect mentally ill people, aggressive people - that otherwise I would fawn and obey and take them for granted, as my leader, as my guidance. Being scared, it is easy to obey loud and obnoxious person, someone with temper tantrum - they don't have to talk sense, they just need to scream and they can get away with anything, they are allowed to do anything.
People pleasing is lack of boundaries - it is the same as a body without protection against viruses, being unable to recognize a virus and to be resilient to virus attack.
I bet if people pleasers are asked to why they don't say no - it is the fear of repercussion from the other person. So what can other person do? What powers have the other person?
And yes, some people can't take no for an answer. Kind and gentle people attract psychopaths like a moth to a flame. Especially in poor countries and counties, we see criminal assault on wives who leave their abusive husbands. In workplace, there are psychopaths that develop secret schemes to make revenge against people who said no to them, openly or covertly.
So my proposal in minimizing people pleasing is investigating other people around us, learning how to pick up red flags and how to cut contact with toxic people. It is about taking away power that we give them, believing them they are Gods, dictators that rule over us. In our childhoods we were raised to believe that we are inept, that our mistakes are the worst thing that could happen in life, that we are not allowed to be angry and to express our opinion, we were raised without love - so now as adults we are product of dysfunctional childhood training - we were programmed to be servants and slaves to narcissists.
Breaking up external referencing is a way to go.
I learned that when afraid - I self censor - but instead I should alarm&alert if someone is rude, crossing boundaries of unwritten social rules. It is about voicing out the elephant in the room, something obvious, yet no one talks it out.
Many times, "saying no" does not mean actually saying No. It is about talking about the problem - alarming the other person to stop, alerting them they are unreasonable, voicing out my opinion and my thoughts, and my experience and my fears, and admitting that I do not know something - admitting that other person needs to admit that they do not know something - that they are not experts - as one can't be expert in everything.
Thanks for message.
My people pleasing was so severe that I was not even aware of my own automatic behaviour. For example, I avoid doing something in order not to disturb someone by making a noise in the process!
So not only I was stopping my life - I was not aware of it at all, it all went unconscious.
Unfortunately, I noticed that "official" advice from health community does not focus at all on external factor - narcissists, psychopaths, exploiters, toxic environment. Their advice is being focus inside, to relax, meditate, medicate etc.
So videos like these are needed, they will help people to break hypnosis. Other people play crucial role in our well being - or lack of it. If we can choose, we should cut contact with toxic people, and to recognize them in the first place, they hide very well but them toxic shaming other people is the smoking gun.
It is because they feel deep hurt, pain - and they don't want other people to feel it too, so they avoid hurting other people feelings. Once they start to deal with anxiety through fight response - this is then Borderline Personality Disorder. Or in short - victim becomes victimizer.
The official description of AvPD is product of professionals not having enough finances to study the disorder, and thus they don't have enough experimental data to study it properly.
For example:
"rejection, criticism, mocked, humiliated" - these concepts are repeatedly said, but the pattern is not being called out - external factor. There are other people out there that are the problem - narcissists, exploiters, psychopaths, manipulators. They both do damage in childhood, and when abused child grows up - they are programmed to serve and to obey mentally ill aggressive people such as narcissists. So the problem is here is the toxic person, not the victim who reacts to abuse.
"poor social skills" - this is incorrect. People with AvPD and social anxiety already have excellent social skills, in facts, they are too perfect in them. Most people do not follow social etiquette. And people with AvPD are then being told they lack social skills because they don't know how to deal with aggressive, rude, socially unskilled people. This is not problem with social skills - this is problem with dealing with narcissists and toxic people, learning how to deal with conflict and temper tantrums, not to observe loud and obnoxious people as valid, experts, competent simply because they are being loud, screaming drama queens.
"thay may say you are cause of relationship issues" - this is also incorrect. People with AvPD and social anxiety do not say. They do not state the elephant in the room. They shut up. They self-censor themselves. They attract like a moth to a flame narcissist and psychopaths who make them shut up and thus create cycle of abuse.
"picky - quick to find fault with you" - this is also incorrect information. People with AvPD and social anxiety have inferiority complex. This means they see other people as their commanders, every words is ultimate truth and order. They trauma bond with other people. Then if they say anything it is shock and they will be labeled as picky, because it is expected of AvPD person to shut up, both by target and by abuser.
AvPD is the result of Complex Trauma. So the solution is to learn concepts that go along with PTSD - triggers, flashbacks, dealing with narcissistic people, managing psychopaths and manipulators. Learning about external referencing, external validation, fawning, inferiority complex, introjection, self worth, trauma bonding, toxic shame. If avoidance is present, it is a clear sign that there is someone close to them who is mentally ill. Also, quiet, kind, nice and good people attract narcissists, abusers, exploiters and psychopaths, so they will have toxic environment - because they are not picky, because they do not say what is the issue - the elephant in the room, because they have strict and above average social skills that sociopaths will exploit - they will rape their kindness. Having avoidance symptoms is the result of non existent psychological safety - and AvPD environment should be closely examined. It is littered with unrecognized viruses (sociopaths) that cross non existent boundaries of easy targets (people who are afraid of other people).
Unfortunately, current mental healthy industry denies and rejects to look at external factor, and thus they create side-effect damage - they make AvPD and socially anxious people to develop people pleasing, inferiority complex, fawning and seeking approval from others, rather than self worth, making mistakes and being comfortable with wrong choices.
Social anxiety is social issue - even the name implies it.
Other people are the problem. There is what I call external factor - and for some strange and unknown reason - it is both ignored by official health industry and targets.
Social anxiety is a sign there is someone unhealthy, toxic in the near vicinity of such person and it has toxic influence on the target.
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Isolation also means that our definition of evil is wrong. It means that we see evil people as superior (valid, competent and intelligent), while in reality they are not, they should not have this power that we put our life on hold as reaction to them.
Instead of being and living on defense, our decisions and actions should be related to our own desires, goals - not hiding away from evil people. Also, by spending too much energy and time in building walls, we paradoxically put focus on evil people, while we ignore good people who actually deserve our time and energy.
We are easy targets because we are not evil. We follow unwritten social etiquette, we follow the rules. Evil people exploit the holes in the system. It is that in interaction with other people we see people as human beings, and we take into consideration perhaps not to yell, not to accuse them, not to speak out some obvious things in order not to hurt them, we pay attention to other people feelings. This is what normal and healthy people do. On the other hand, evil people see others as things and objects, they toxically ashame others in order to control them for whatever purpose - manipulation and exploitation. The problem is that people with social anxiety and avoidance isolate themselves in order to deal with potential evil people out there - while the solution is simple - it is pointing out the elephant in the room. It is not to self-censor ourselves, especially if they are rude and they initiate aggressive attack in our faces. It is about realizing, recognizing dangerous people as virus, and so we should activate anti-virus system by neutralizing the invaders - through our words - alarm and alert system, or cutting the contact with toxic people. These skills are missing from our system - how to deal with high conflict people, difficult people and narcissists, manipulators. But the first step is to recognize them and then to de-throne them. I see solution for social anxiety in being honest and authentic, instead of hiding our feelings, emotions and words as a way to "protect" other people from harm and pain.
For some reason, "official" advice about social anxiety totally ignores and overlooks this conflict and confrontation issues -while it is a key to dealing with people. Some of them mention assertiveness techniques, but this implies we are dealing with healthy and sane people who listen to others and perceive others as human beings. The problem are insane aggressive people - they can't be reasoned with and they cause social anxiety in easy targets. They are the problem here, and we solve it by isolation and hiding away from people because no one tells us that we have ability to recognize evil people easily.
Once again, that is the problem - this "let them hand themselves" and "be on par with others" will work when you deal with normal and healthy people.
Problem are true evil people - narcissists, manipulators, exploiters and psychopaths. They don't care about other people. This is very hard concept to grasp for nice and kind people like us. We feel anxiety and fears and we are very careful not to hurt other people, so we shut up, we self - censor ourselves and we do not speak the truth - in order not to hurt others. This way other people might believe in their biases, fallacies - because we did not tell them the truth, we do not defend ourselves, we do not tell our side of story.
We should.
We should be honest and authentic and listen to our voice in our head that tell us what we need to tell about issues, opinions or matter at hand.
So problem is that in our childhood due to Complex Trauma, we were raised by insane environment - we learned that if we speak up, if we express ourselves - that we will be punished. We were taught that we hurt other people by our words. So now we shut up and isolate.
And indeed - when we experimented with being honest, we did encounter people who reacted hysterically to our words throwing temper tantrums. And this is the problem, our explanation what is going on when someone is rude to us. Official resources from mental health industry define this sensitivity to rudeness as "sensitivity to criticism".
I think this is wrong deduction. We are hyperalert and hypersensitive - but we react to evil people. We have ability to recognize that they are capable of unimaginable tortures and horrors and abuse. Most people are incapable of such wrongdoings and people can't understand that such evil people can exist. Evil people exploit unwritten social etiquettes and accepted social norms - such as not making a scene, being kind, being quiet, not rocking the boat, not making a fuss. And they trust that most people will "let them handle themselves". That's how they get away with murder (literal or hypothetical). I think that social anxiety and avoidance issues stem from this - that we are aware of evil but due to social conditions we block natural reactions and we try to appear friendly, kind and "normal" - but this blockage creates inner damage and we are not aware of this psychological damage - since from our point of view we are doing the right thing - we try to keep balance, to make other people happy and that no one feels anxiety and fears that we feel.
The solution is very simple - we should be honest and authentic. We should point out the elephant in the room. It is about talking and voicing out our opinions and knowledge and experience instead of shutting up and self-censorship. This does implies being rude to rude people or breaking up some unwritten social rules in certain cases. It is about realizing that evil people does not care about other people at all, they see other people as objects and they do not deserve our attention, caring and protection from feeling the pain. It also means that we should avoid and run away when we feel urge to stay in order to fawn. It means we should stay and be active when we feel irrational fears based on our fantasies and PTSD flashbacks.
But he misses the basic truth - no matter how correct and perfect we perform, mistakes/shortcomings/evil will happen anyway, it is because we cannot control outside events. He focus on external event, he is teaching us to have external referencing and seek external validation. In time, this belief that external is more important than our self worth, this will turn into people pleasing, trauma bonding and Stockholm Syndrome.
Also he explains us that we should be afraid of the pain. This is right wing mentality that he belongs to, it is limited and simplified way to deal with problems in life. Something bugs you, no matter what is the reason - label it as pain and attack it and destroy it. Well, in some cases the pain alert us that we need to change something, sometimes the pain is good.
Honestly, I think Peterson is a quack. His advice will do more damage than good, but it is sugar coated so it looks nice from the outside, but if you study and analyze what he is talking about - it is crap.
it is about alarming and alerting other person, even when I am not sure. This alarm system does not mean yelling, screaming or being hysterical (unless necessary). It is about pointing out the elephant in the room. Usually I would shut up and self-censor, and I would not express my opinion because I would think that I am over-reacting or that my fears are making me hallucinating the threat, imagining that someone is rude. And I would shut up. The solution is to speak it out - if something feels wrong - I should voice it out and test it. See how the other person is responding - are they over-reactive and thus hiding something, being manipulative.
Normal and healthy individuals would listen to others and their remarks and objections, most of them would take into consideration other people feelings and opinions.
I think people pleasers like me learned in their childhood to shut up automatically, no matter what is happening, no matter if we are accused of something untrue, I would agree with accusatory person, the accusation, I'd see the other person superior, valid, stronger, correct - even though they are making bias, prejudices and fallacies. That is being too nice - seeing yourself as invalid and inept, while the others are perfect and automatically correct in everything. And then we would shut up little voice inside out head that springs up with the truth - and we would not voice out that truth, being afraid of attack, shaming from others. This self-censorship is the problem. And psychopaths, narcissists take advantage of this silence. They exploit unwritten social norms. They rape other people kindness - being kind by not rocking the boat, not stating the obvious, elephant in the room.
That's how I see people pleasing, it is trauma bonding, Stockholm Syndrome actually.
This is myth. Correct quote is placing the blame on instigator, not the target:
"A snub is the effort of a person who feels superior to make someone else feel inferior. To do so, he has to find someone who can be made to feel inferior."
Incorrect quote is unfair and doing damage to anyone gone through Complex Trauma, or people who must be in close contact (due to job, finances, shelter, resources) with a narcissist, manipulator, psychopath.
Yeah, this will work with normal and healthy person on the other side.
I read for decades advice how to stop people pleasing, and I learned the truth when I discovered Complex Trauma.
Problem are unstable, aggressive people (narcissists, bullies, psychopaths, abusers, exploiters). When you speak what bothers you to a normal person, this person will 1) listen you 2) correct themselves - if it is reasonable request. However, problem are what I call "external factor" - "crazy" people. They do not follow unwritten social rules, they exploit them, they rape our kindness and need for harmony and peace.
Furthermore, HSP people attract aggressive people like moth to a flame - because we are easy targets: we are kind, quiet, peaceful, agreeable, friendly, nice - or in one word normal and healthy, balanced human being.
Problem is because many people are not aware of this "external factor". Both official mental healthy industry ignore this factor, along with motivators and general public. This "unawareness" puts us in position and situation where we are constant victim. It is because people are not aware that there are psychopaths out there, and we are not aware that we deal with psychopaths - so the result is that we are focused on our anxiety, on our fear, we dear with this problem with people pleasing (natural defense system against predators) - and we are told we are the problem, that we should be more "stronger" and that our emotions as reaction to bullies are the problem- which has counter-effect of further deepening the anxiety.
This is very complex topic because it is rooted in society - it is like - there are elite people who exploit others, and then there are others who get exploited. Someone throws temper tantrum - and just because this person is loud, obnoxious and rude - they get whatever they want, just to shut them up. This is how narcissists, sociopaths operate. Of course, they throw charm and honeymoon phase to soften the blow and cover their criminal acts from others and the target.
So, I think people need to be more aware of cold and mentally ill people out there as first step - and HSP, people pleasers should be informed and aware of this - because we are prime targets for sick people. That would be the first step. Second step is that we need to learn how to deal with "external factor". Assertiveness will not work with them. These people can't take no for answer. Assertiveness as concept tells us that we should not expect other people to agree with us, it is more important to express and tell what is going on, what we want, to alarm and alert person if they are behaving hysterically. And as I said, normal people will take our information and process it. Problem are people who regard other people are things and objects. So our fears are actually very helpful tool to recognize these sick people. Which leads to the next step - we need to plan to detach from them. They are parasites and they exploit our vulnerabilities - our need for friendship, love for people, being social and having relationship. This means these people will leech on us - so it will not be easy to get rid of them immediately. The first step is this recognition what we are dealing with. It is like body getting information about virus - so that our immune system can recognize virus particles entering our sphere - and getting rid of it. Unless the system doesn't recognize the virus, we will be under attack, exploited and get sick - and we will not know the reason why.
For some unknown reason, as I said, neither people nor mentors are aware of this "external factor", and this is causing many mental instabilities in the targets, such as people pleasing behaviour and inability to say no, for example. In my case it turned into social anxiety and avoidance - I deal with "external factor" by rejecting all people - because no one told me that there are sick people out there, I accept them all and I want to help everyone.
It is hard for HSP, empaths to understand this information - because people judge other people by our own world, from our egocentric thinking - and of course, we define sick people as something that we see in newspapers or TV - we are hypnotized and we in a way romanticize this concept of bad people out there - by giving them a shadow of doubt, we understand that they are this way because of their trauma so we abolish their sins as we want to be good and nice people, without acknowledging that there are really scary and sick people out there, not caring about others at all. It is like we might do door-slam, but secretly we will expect that they come to their senses, come begging for forgiveness because we are so good and we help them all the time in everything, so that they will be nice and good to us, without yelling and screaming at us.
I hope this long text will help someone out there to change our learned wrong concepts and finally realize why we are afraid and from where our fears stem from. It is "external factor".
Until we are able to recognize this deep and utter sickness in certain people out there, we will be able to set boundaries with people. Because we will understand they don't care for us at all, they just play pretend.
The Mysterious Stranger novel by Mark Twain awoke me from hypnosis and childhood programming of serving narcissists, this quote helped me to realize the external factor, that there are people who are not worthy of our love, attention and focus;
"Can you imagine an elephant being interested in spider, carrying whether he is happy or isn't or whether he is wealthy or poor or whether his sweetheart returns his love or not. Or whether he is looked up to in society, or not. These things can never be important to the elephant. They are nothing to him. Man is to me as the red spider is to the elephant. T"
Yeah, and I think this is a great mistake in psychiatry, motivators, trainers and mental healthy industry. The external factor is totally ignored. The impact of narcissists, psychopaths, sociopaths - toxic people upon unsuspecting target is criminally ignored. Instead, the mental healthy industry and motivators focus on the person exclusively. I see this as a huge problem - it is because anxiety feelings, uncomfortable feelings that we feel when we are in contact with someone aggressive are normal feelings, it is a normal reaction to abnormal settings, to abnormal people - and the industry tells us that we simply have to be stronger, and that we allow the abuse to happen, and that we are making victims out of ourselves, just for being weak.
There are situations where we must endure the abuse (due to finances, shelter, help, service) and we simply cannot be whistleblowers. Perhaps the environment where we live condemns the whistleblowers (toxic families, toxic towns, cults, authoritarian state etc).
There is a hidden research that shows that psychopaths have smaller amygdala than "normal" people. In the same time, we are being told by mental health industry that amygdala is bad thing, because it makes us scared, hyperalert, hypersensitive etc. The truth is that without amygdala we would be criminals or worse. So - psychopaths (narcissists, sociopaths, exploiters, parasites, emotional vampires, abusers, users) know that they can exploit others, by simply pulling amygdala button, they can easily trigger fears in other people- And if others respond and react to them in anger, they will not be impacted at all. If accused, they will appear in wheel chairs in the court and they will blame the victim, they lie without problem.
So this is actually a social issue hidden beneath the surface... It is obvious that mental healthy industry won't spread the word about abnormal brain in sociopaths because it could be turned into witch hunt and violation of human rights. And by respecting the unwritten moral ethical and civilized code, psychopaths thrive and cause damage on normal and healthy people. We are slaves to our own moral code of respecting the human life. Normal and healthy people would not want to imprison or hurt or exterminate anyone - and yet the psychopaths out there exploit this and they abuse us, they abuse normal people with emotions, feelings, kindness and need for friendship and cooperation.
So the solution that current mental healthy industry found is that they focus on us, they try to make us more resilient to toxic people who trigger our amygdala into panic and fear. But without knowing the full picture, we think we are distorted. The focus being on us, we think that we are the crazy ones. We think that our sensitivity is sickness. We think that cognitive distortions fell out of space, out of nowhere - while the truth is that cognitive distortions are programming that was implanted outside of us by toxic environment.
I think the more we know about this dynamics, the more resilient we will be. Because we are trustful and forgiving - we can't grasp there are psychopaths out there - and this unawareness of toxic people makes us gullible and very easy target. Yeah, we see toxic people in movies, news, books - but we soon forget about it because 1) we judge the world based on our own experience, our own soul and our persona - and we are not criminally insane, so we can't make reference outside of us, we cannot grasp and truly understand that there are deep, sick people out there 2) our brain has defense mechanism - the hurt and pain is vetoed by our brain and we cannot truly experience the bad, the brain shuts off and this protection mechanism makes us to forgive with time and allow toxic people in our lives.
I see the healing in having the better boundaries, in filtering out the bad and negative, instead of having strong wall that will block negative people - the better and healthier and sustainable way is that we see psychopaths as very sick individuals and as such they should not be perceived by our senses at all - it is as if they do not exists. So instead of investing the time and energy in building a wall - we simply ignore them, as if they do not exist. Instead we focus on normal and good people that we take for granted.
Being a teen with SAD during pre-internet era, I can say that modern gadgets and technology did not contribute to social anxiety. I still had fear of talking over the phone, I never got used to it simply by talking over the phone, and back then in late 80s and early 90s, instead of internet and cell phones - I had books and TV as my safe and hiding place.
You make a good points, "There is nothing to be anxious about", to be charismatic, expressing yourself, not self-censor yourself is good advice. It is about standing up for ourselves, not to shut up when we are accused of something wrong. It is not healthy to silence our voice inside when it wants to come out and speak out the truth, a reply to criticism or unfair judgement and false accusations.
But, people with social anxiety is indicator there is something scary out there. It means there is a disorder out there. I call this "external factor" - and these are hidden psychopaths, narcissists, exploiters, users, abusers. I found out that they play a crucial role in social anxiety development and sustaining it. If we felt psychological safety, we would not deposit upon fears to guide us to keep us safe, we would not resort to immature ego defense mechanism.
I would say to anyone with social anxiety that they look out carefully around them.
There is a distortion that is causing your fears and phobias, outside of yourself - a bad influence, toxic people. The society is giving us false messages - the society, the environment around us teaches us to develop cognitive distortions. For example, many people are not aware of this "external factor" because as kids we are ego-centric, and thus the official mental health industry is focusing on symptoms of the individual - which does not help and may even exaggerate the symptoms. So the society teaches us to be ego-centric, which is a stage in growin up - it is something that should be overgrown, yet the society are giving us subliminal messages not to grow up.
Or there are rarely intelligent voices in our media - and instead we get false messages that for example confidence and self esteem is connected with material things and money. So the society teaches us to have low self worth. This lessons also teaches us about generalizations - a cognitive distortion. Intelligent person would like Socrates tell us that we may never know the whole truth, and that there are biases and fallacies out there - so it is normal to feel insecure and anxiety in certain situations. It is normal to have abnormal reaction to abnormal situation and abnormal people around us.
No wonder we have problems with social anxiety.
And my last point - social anxiety if viewed as an enemy and something you must get rid off, will only make symptoms worse. Social anxiety as any anxiety should be accepted, paradoxically in order to lessen. If you fight with it, it makes you more scared. People who are scared and feel emotions such as fear - means that they have functional amygdala. This means we are normal human beings. Psychopaths - such as serial killers have abnormally small amygdala - so for people having the lack of fear does not mean they are stronger, better, more valid, superior or successful - it just means they are crazy and dangerous. :D
Social anxiety tips itself of in its name - the social part means that we as individuals are not the only one to blame for having anxiety, there is society at fault, too.
I see the problem why it is not working in triggers - flashbacks.
It is because AvPD is connected with Complex Trauma.
It should help, because the idea of facing fears is in desensitizing to stimuli. It is like having driving phobia - driving more often does help to ease the phobia, if driving is done more often - the over-sensitivity does ease up with time, facing fears does help in such situation.
So why does social situations does not help to get used to fears, why anxiety does not go away with time and repeated exposure?
Also, this advice to face our fears - to be among people - actually makes detrimental additional damage - it makes us to fawn, because it forces us to be with people, and you can only be with people if you talk with them, if you make connection, if you make friends. And you can do that only if you are kind, if someone is critical you smile back. If someone is making unreasonable request, you tell yourself you are having anxiety as reaction, so avoidance is making me think that this person is exploiting me, it is my imagination - so therefore I will say yes to anyone and everything - thus the system is making us to become pushovers and people pleasers.
So this is where we get to the root of problem with AvPD:
I think the problem is in external factor. There are toxic, unhealthy people around us that are causing us to feel anxiety. The psychopaths, narcissists, exploiters, users, abusers, parasites, emotional vampires. We lack the information how to deal with high conflict people. This lack of information is generating the anxiety. The mental health industry describes this lack of information in wrong way, they say we "lack social skills". No, that is not true - because we already have social skills - we have empathy, we are able to put ourselves in other people shoes, that is more of social skills than 80% of general public that is ego-centric and unable to have this deep level of empathy.
What we lack is how to respond to hysterical person. How to deal with violence and violent people. How to interpret, recognize delusional people out there. It is about recognizing there are borderline people who will makes us feel warm and friendly and we open up to them, while in reality they make fun of us, control us and ashame us, since they have issues themselves. We make excuses for bad people and we are too trustful to people. That is the problem. Due to complex trauma we were programmed in our dysfunctional childhood to distrust our intuition and to serve and obey narcissists. We were programmed to be slaves. We were taught to disregard red flags and to trust anyone - including mentally ill people.
The another problem is lack of education and awareness. So most people are not aware what lies beneath the anxiety. Underneath the anxiety are beliefs - if anyone tracked those beliefs "they are judging me" - it all stems from being afraid of what other person thinks about us. It is unbearable that someone thinks something about us - especially if it is bad opinion about us. And this is medical description of social anxiety and avoidance - the fear of criticism. Without this awareness, we think the other person is automatically correct and right, that the other person is automatically stronger, competent, better in anything and that we should shut up. We were silenced as kids when we wanted to voice out our opinion - and now as adults we self-censor our own experience, intuition, reason, intellect, knowledge - we smother it and we put automatically all the trust and knowledge and guidance in other people hands - as we were instructed and programmed in our childhood.
And of course, this does not work - because other people are dumb, inexperienced, probably have lower IQ than us - so the obvious solution is avoidance, it is the safe option.
I see the solution in a realization that due to Complex Trauma we lack self worth - we do not trust ourselves, as we were taught that we must be perfect, perfectionist in everything, and with toxic shame control mechanism we were programmed to observe mistakes as death sentences. So - it is about embracing our mistakes and when we turn out stupid. When we embarrass ourselves and make stupid dumb choice. Perhaps - we should even make mistake on purpose, just to desensitize ourselves on making mistakes.
So it comes down to believing our decisions, our opinions to be ok with being wrong and being ok with our mistakes.
And when mentors say face your fears - as our fears are mistakes - it should be said -face your mistakes. Someone will criticize us anyway - no matter what we do. We were programmed as kids to not tolerate mistakes and this is creating AvPD.
Also, I think anxiety being connected to amygdala, means that we are human beings, it is being humble - and being ok with being humble. Psychopaths have brain injury, this fact is hidden from general public probably so that many people who are now in managerial positions would not like to be exposed - but they all have small amygdala. This is their secret - they do not feel fears, they do not feel uncomfortable with their mistakes, they are unable to put themselves in other people shoes and experience emotions of others.
Just imagine what the world would be if people were unable to feel anxiety - cannibals everywhere. Imagine how the traffic would be - you would not be able to drive onto main street because everyone would be entitled to drive fast and not let other people onto the main road. Imagine the workplace - where yelling, screaming, hysterical and maniacal behaviour is normal and standard. Violence, extermination and destruction would be the norm.
I see AvPD as a normal reaction to abnormal situation. If there is AvPD present, it is a clear sign that psychopath was present or is still present in target's life. Someone who complains all the time and find faults, someone who insults all the time and is negative all the time, someone who beat the dead horse - someone mentally ill. It is the product of mentally ill person not being treated and institutionalized, yet let go in public and making damage on unsuspecting targets. And people who are kind, normal, friendly, who desire cooperation and harmony - are the easy targets for bullies and psychopaths, we attract narcissists like a moth to a flame - because we were trained to serve them in our childhood.
So, I would take the focus of from our symptoms and shine the light on our environment and see what is lurking out there in darkness, hidden and away from a focus. Psychopaths are masters of disguise and they appear normal if not charming to the general public, that is the part of their game hunting. Yeah, I see informing ourselves about manipulators would help to easy AvPD, the knowledge about external factor is like having a space suit in harsh and unwelcoming environment.
Otherwise it is like being burned and harmed by hidden gamma rays radiation - you think you are the problem because you are experiencing the symptoms - while the problem is invisible and it is external.
Therapist recognized that there is defense mechanism, but did not make any further inquiry - what and who did you defend against?
It would be interesting if the therapist analyzed these defense mechanism and found out the existence of flashbacks and triggers that are running our choices and that control our decisions from hidden place of panic.
I see AvPD as a normal reaction to abnormal situation and abnormal people.
The therapist make a mistake and focus on the symptoms, and this is making additional damage. I see AvPD as a part of Complex Trauma, it means that in our childhood we were exposed to toxic environment and toxic people - and we were programmed, we were set to certain dysfunctional messages, orders and commands - and we replay them as adults. I would focus instead of other people - what triggers us and what flashbacks we have - these are a part of hypnosis. It is like imagining the worse scenario - and then we avoid the situation and people in order not to experience it.
We distrust our lack of judgement and we turn to other people for guidance, and we are not being told this will make us people pleasers. We abolish our intuition, judgement for the other people - that they make choices instead of us - and this way it is easier to avoid mistakes that might someone criticize us over. And if someone is criticizing us, we should shut up because we see others as better, stronger, competent.
We distrust our self worth and we believe our mistakes are wrong.
So the obvious solution is to trust our judgement, intuition, to stand by our mistakes, if someone accuses us of something that we speak out our side of story, instead of self-censoring ourselves. Then this naturally leads to having initiative and making our own choices - being good or bad, we trust our own judgement and experience and common sense - instead of putting trust in loud and obnoxious people who we let run our lives just for the sake of not rocking the boat and making a scene.
I see AvPD would benefit from learning how to engage in conflict, and how to deal with high drama people. How to correctly interpret and manage arguments.
AvPD being silent and in isolation - the solution would be voicing out ourselves and having more activities that are based on our own judgement and our own choices.
What to do when you communicate and the other person is hysterical - yet you need to be in close contact with this person (due to job, shelter, finances, help, resources)?
For example from my life experience -
I live in Eastern Europe where people are unlike in the west nervous and they see someone masculine, strong or competent through yelling, screaming and being violent. So,
driver's instructor - back in 1995 I went to driver's school and the instructor was very nervous and rude, yelled and screamed at my any mistake - even though I drove for the first time. After two weeks of taking in verbal abuse - I did tell him I cannot drive when he is screaming - and he kicked me out in the street. He called few days later - and charged me for additional hours because I was not ready to take exam. I did all by the book - yet I felt ashamed, I felt toxic shame before and after, at the time I was not educated to recognize I was feeling toxic shame, I felt guilt, and guilty, I felt like crap, and the worst of it all I developed driving phobia - I started to drive regularly in 2014. So even though I set boundary, it took me 19 years of avoidance and withdrawal from driving due to trauma.
Another example - coworkers - In unregulated state, there is no protection against mobbing, so you are facing rude, constantly screaming people - and I had situation where I was transferred to new position, still picking up the clues how to work it, and I had to tell a coworker do so some additional job - and she violently screamed (as I heard her before screaming at person she sits in a room) - it was unbearable - and I did all by the book - I told her that I cannot communicate like this and turn away and leave - she's followed me that she is willing to listen and started to yell and scream again. But I felt embarrassed, ashamed and avoidant - so..
1) having boundaries can go along with being avoidant. It does not cure the condition.
2) problem with AvPD is external factor. Having AvPD means we are in toxic environment. It is normal reaction to abnormal people. No matter what we do - it will not be ok, we can set boundary, it will not help because we are dealing with unrecognized mentally ill people around in our close vicinity.
I did find out later that I self-censor myself, that I shut up and I do not defend myself in order to be friendly, sociable as instructed by mental health industry and mentors - but this need to not be avoidant only led me to be pushover, people pleaser and to fawn.
When we are faced with external factor - narcissists, psychopaths, sociopaths, borderliners, exploiters, users, emotional vampires - nothing works. No boundary works. Walls that we put up only suck our energy and time.
Instead of boundaries - I see better solution in plan to leave them out, to go away from them - and to be able to recognize them, to be able to understand these people are fundamentally sick, that we cannot grasp it because we judge the world according to ourselves - so of course we will never understand that certain people can be so sick, abnormal and dangerous.
Yes, we should react, we should speak out, we should not self censor ourselves, but in the same time we need to start being aware of this "external factor". So that we do not blame ourselves when our trials and effort does not work on them. That we do not feel ashamed for being pooped by them in public. That we do not feel worthless or less of human being by being forced to be in same room with them. They control us through toxic shame, and they feed on our insecurities such as guilt and fears.
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So if a person is taken away avoidance, withdrawal and isolation as a shield - the natural next step is becoming people pleaser, pushover, and to fawn, trauma bond, it is a road to Stockholm syndrome.
As I learned, the official psychiatry does not have money, resources and time to study social anxiety and avoidance - and they use shortcuts with detrimental results.
- it is about realizing that there are really bad, sick people out there without heart and soul that do not care for other people at all, they may act as if they do care.
This was a huge discovery because I have issue with external referencing - this is something I learned once I read about Complex Trauma. It is trauma bonding - I think of myself as inferior, internally and eternally wrong in every way, having massive toxic shame inside, believing I am inept, wrong by default and too weak and not masculine enough for life. With this belief I developed trauma bonding - people pleasing, codependency, seeking approval from others... and the only way to break those shackles was to realize there is external factor - bad people. And I can trust myself instead, have intrinsic value to guide me, instead of depending on other people.
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Otherwise, by default, I trust everyone. If someone is rude, I think it is my fault automatically. If someone is angry, I think I caused it. If someone is exploiting me, I come up with reasons that I imagine it and I should let them do whatever they want. If someone is shaming me, I think they have right and they are correct without even stopping and considering that they might be totally wrong.
I think social anxiety and avoidance deep down is having the same issue at its core. It is hidden inside. This is where inferiority complex stems from and low self esteem. It is the deep trust in other people, all people - no matter who they are - and this is why we attract toxic people in our lives, this is why they make such damage, and this is why we avoid people - because we can't help ourselves to forgive them, to make explanations for them, to make rationalizations, we can't help ourselves to fix them, to put our back even when they don't ask for help at all.
Yes, we see in books or tv or news or in media that there are evil people, but we cannot comprehend it at it's core that someone can be this cruel, cold and horrible. This makes as super easy target for narcissists.
That is trauma bonding. And I think that is at the core of social anxiety and avoidance. I also see the only anti-dote to this issue - is to be aware that people who are not welcoming should be examined thoroughly, instead of fawning to them. They should be seen as external factor, the cause of disorder - and that the best thing is to avoid them.
And here is the problem - sometimes we can't avoid toxic people. They are around us - and because of job, resources, help, finances, we need to be in contact with them. So the information about narcissist is very helpful here - it is said that the best way to deal with such people is to play gray rock on them - be boring, to have minimum contact with them. And to plan the future without them - by cutting contact in any way that is possible (and legal). :D
Without external factor awareness, I think we are prone to intrusive thoughts, ruminating again and again what is wrong and what happened and how we could avoid danger in the future. We are reactive and we do not make initiative, instead of being active we become passive onlookers of life. We react to life instead of living it. This is what we learned due to Complex Trauma - we were programmed to be avoidant in order to deal with life problems. And we think it is our fault, we carry so much hidden shame and guilt inside, we worry too much about people who would not take a second to think about any other human being (unless it pays them off in some way).
I think avoidant people who are forced to be around people have the problem that they do not know how to deal with difficult people. The anxiety makes us to freeze, to fawn. And when we are silent we are making the damage inside. We see ourselves as passive and it confirms our belief that we are weak and unable to deal with life and problems and people.
It is because if we stop being too nice, it would break the ingrained childhood programming, the inner belief that other people are good and nice - especially those who are loud, obnoxious, rude and intrusive.
I see avoidance as problem with difficult people. The healthy thing would be that we are free to do what we want, to chase our goals, to act normally and without anxiety - and when we are in contact with someone who is ashaming us, who control us, who belittle us, who is aggressive and rude all the time - this has detrimental effect on our mental health. And the way we react is wrong. The way we perceive toxic people is wrong - and I discovered it is because we cannot understand that such people are manipulators and psychopaths. We are hypnotized due to our trauma and negative experience in childhood where we never had chance to learn how to have normal viewpoint of violent people.
That is why I think it is crucial to have a realization in our heads that some people are truly evil and we cannot do anything about that. It is not our job to be friends with them or to fix them. If we do not make this distinction - we will never be able to confront them, to speak about elephant in the room and we will be paradoxically bonded with them, because our brain will identify them as threat and our sole focus will be on them- We will try everything not to rock the boat or to make them uncomfortable - because we are being told that we must be social, friendly and not-avoidant.
My external factor theory does not mean that we must see everyone in the world as enemy. It is simply being aware that if we feel social anxiety and if we are avoiding people, that we lack ability in recognizing the virus, so our immune system needs to discover and reject potential threat - instead of avoiding people in general.
It comes down to filtering out people and embracing our dark shadow - in form of self protection, in form of speaking out and voicing out our opinion. Normal people would listen to us, abnormal people would laugh at us and mock us and continue doing the same thing.
I think the ability to realize that once we recognize that the other person does not care at all - gives us power to speak back and to stop thinking about this person, having intrusive thoughts what I've could done better and how to make things better - with people who don't care at all about anyone.
It ended up me being afraid of pumping gas in a car! I felt so invalid and inept in the end because I realized I am afraid of everything.
It made me more aware as I saw the world as dangerous place that is full of fears and I need to face it all.
Because I got conscious about what I am doing and it basically puts me in artificial position - of constructing my life - it is not spontaneous. Also, the problem with meddling with fears is that analysis leads to paralysis.
Later; I learned instead of fears, there was distorted storm inside me. For example, I had problem with PureOCD, intrusive thoughts and ruminations - they trigger fears. So, the problem is not fear, the problem is not realizing I engage into immature defense mechanism (discovered by Freud actually - but for some unknown reason it is not mentioned in any self help books or popular psychiatry books about fears).
Also, I had issue with external validation and external referencing - this means that I feel fear in accordance what other people feel and act around me, I adjust my emotions to them, all unconsciously. Without knowing this concepts, it appeared as fears inside my head.
Also I learned about amygdala hijacking and thought fusion - it means that I trust my thoughts and believe them - as they occur in my head, without stopping and thinking that they may be incorrect, biased or cognitive fallacy. Instead - without being aware of this - I labelled what was happening as fear.
So inability to understand what I was dealing with was the problem, and labeling any uncomfortable emotion as fear - did not help, it could not help.
The latest discovery for me is that social anxiety and avoidance may be a part of sixth sense - it seems we have ability to see through other people masks and see them for who they are - of course they will deny it if we confront them. It is scary to be able to see right through the facade and see all dark parts that people are trying to hide. And if we don't understand that we have some kind of "The Voight-Kampff test" mechanism inside us - we will label it as fear - and fear other people.
When in fact, other people should be afraid of us :D We cut through their crap like a laser.
The society will try to shut us up thought shame and guilt, they will explain us that we are over-sensitive and that we should toughen up - but when we stop self censor ourselves, when we start talking the truth, when we voice our voice inside - when we tell our fears - it will be the other way around. IT will be the problem for other people that they can't handle the truth, that they are oversensitive themselves by being exposed and stripped by their mask they try to hide what is beneath.
I understand what you are trying to speak here - it is about toxic people is a label. And you are right. Actually there are no toxic people out there. There are wounded people, clutzes and many of them are not aware of the damage they do when they yell, scream, complain others.
I examined this in my blog, I called it "The Agreeableness Theory".
I understand that the goal for human beings is interdependence and that Allegory of the long spoons tells us the difference between heaven and hell is taking care of each other.
I also understand that generalization is issue itself. The solution is in fuzzy logic - that we cannot see anything in life in absolute terms, it is not healthy to label something and stick to it. Everything is in constant flux, so labels disable, being rigid is not healthy.
Having said all that,
Yet, the avoidance itself is a distortion. It is normal reaction to abnormal people. Avoidant people need a dose of poison in order to beat the sickness inside.
I see "healthy" and "normal" person as the one that is not ruminating about what other people think of them. People with avoidance issues engage in intrusive thoughts.
"Normal" and "healthy" people react to unfair situations, avoidant people avoid confrontation - that is problem because silence and ignoring the accusation can land us into trouble, we take blame, we become scapegoats.
Avoidance is the result of labels being thrown at us and we accepted them all, as they land on us, we shut up, we self-censor ourselves.
I see the solution in being able to express ourselves, being able to filter bad influence around us and spend time and energy on people who we take for granted. Our fears turn into inferiority complex and we serve loud, obnoxious, aggressive people that demand our time and energy. I see the solution as being able to recognize what is going on.
Our default way of thinking is distorted. We operate as if we are under hypnosis.
So I see the way to break out of hypnosis as something shocking and drastic - and that is speaking of bad people as contagion. It is actually having a boundary.
I think people who have avoidance issues are unable to say no to others, they are unable to stand up for themselves and they have hard time voicing out their issues to other people.
People with avoidance issues are too nice, and too kind - and they will attract negative people in their lives, parasites and evil people - and then make up excuses, explanations and rationalizations that there is no problem.
Being avoidant means being passive, we are reactive to our life, we do not take initiatives, we are pulled and pushed as waves throw us.
I don't think that "deconstructing the beliefs" is realistic. When we pass certain age, we are full grown person, we cannot change our persona at whim. And why should we conform to society? It is like trying to fit in into mold - but who says what mold should look like. This is what makes avoidance ingrained, because it is intertwined with out personality. I see better solution - as accepting and conforming to my fears and anxiety while in the same time making choices and making plans that are in align with my goals, desires and what I see important in life.
I see healthy persona as one that is not worried and self-conscious. I see non avoidant person the one who is basically happy and operate through humour instead of relentless fear of other people's reaction. It is about accepting own mistakes and learning from them. The process you describe is implying we are wrong by default and that we should conform to the other and outer source - but I don't think that is healthy - in fact it could be dangerous. That way we could fabricate people, as if in factory.
Instead, I see the better way in embracing our imperfections and mistakes and flaws, and shortcomings as normal part of human experience. And afterall, if we look at other people - the general public - we can observe that many people out there are flawed, imperfect, nuts and crazy - and they still function in this world without the need to underwent psychological surgery in order to be a good person.
I rather see the better solution in trying out different things, seeking other people experiences and knowledge and education to make labels. Labels as I said disable, but in the same time they light the dark and hidden parts of our minds, it is like lightening up the dark room without windows - so that we do not bump onto things when we walk around it in the dark. When we put labels, we can more easily know what we are dealing with, how it will react and what can we expect - it is like being scientist - we put it under test and see how it reacts in different settings, does it stays the same or does it change under certain conditions. It is not perfect solution, but it is helpful and I think this is the reason of life - to experience it and to understand the chaos and to make sense of it all - so that we have this knowledge in our afterlife.
As I see, you have problem with this part. You trust that there is no evil people out there and that it is our own problem if we experience someone rude, obnoxious and aggressive, that we done something to provoke it and that our perception is wrong.
What you try to do is this programming that I was talking about - you actually try to fix other people, you take responsibility for their wrongdoings, that somehow it is connected with you, that you provoked them to be angry and that is normal that they show negative emotions, while you are not allowed to show it back, because you are kind and you understand that they are in pain - so you must ignore them - I think this is painful and wrong solution.
Bully will not stop by looking at us and having a mercy on us. Instead, they will see this as a green light to continue bullying.
Also I think you have problem with cognitive distortion - overgeneralization: " where you apply one experience to all experiences". I struggle with this too. I am talking here about external factor as recognizing the very small number of people who are bullies, narcissists, exploiters and manipulators - while unfortunately, due to overgeneralization, you think I am talking about general population of people, of all of them.
As I said, I think it is because of your realization that there is duality - that yin and Yang are complimentary and that the dark shadow means that there are no toxic people out there.
And as I said - you are right, this will work on healthy population, this will work with people who are sane. Unfortunately, there are evil people out there and they rape our kindness, they take advantage of our trust, of our urge to make friendships and connection and need to be with other people.
I too had realization myself - when I learned about Zoroastrians. They also talk about evil, and that it is our duty to recognize it and engage in good thoughts and good activities instead of making connection with evil.
I also think you are confusing concept of evil people with resentment and holding on to grudge and pouting. When I talk about external factor it means that we recognize that there is evil out there - and that we cannot control it and it is not our duty to fix it, and it is not in our domain to try to understand it - we simply cut contact with it, without holding on grudge - because pouting is a part of bonding with it, it is negative bonding but evil will have power over us if we spend time thinking about it, worrying about it and trying to solve puzzles they throw at us. If we engage in any mental or physical activity with evil people they take away focus from good people, people who need our help and who deserve our time and energy and love.
How do you react to angry and difficult people? How do you manage contact with them? What do you do to solve situation where someone is screaming and yelling at you, blaming you for something or ashaming your shortcomings and errors, especially if you done something for the first time and you never done it before, so of course you will make errors. How do you feel when someone ashame you? Do you confront them? Do you tell what is bothering you or do you shut up and let them have it?
As I understand you deal with this calmly and you try to understand them and give them a shadow of a doubt.
This is ok, but you have to understand that there are people out there who take advantage of this "understanding" and your desire for peace and acceptance. There are people who rape your kindness and it is dangerous to stay in contact with them, ignoring their tresspassing.
You have to understand that there are people out there that were raised in dysfunctional environment, that now as adults cannot handle this type of situations, they make them afraid and scared and they try to solve it by avoiding people. They are not aware but they are constantly hypervigilant and hyperalert to their environment and they may perceive innocuous signals as threat, like an allergy, all the time, 24/7. That is avoidance. I believe avoidance is at its core connected with distorted way how we handle conflict and argument. People with avoidance already have this all encompassing understanding and acceptance of all people. They already forgive all people - but this is not healthy if we do it by shutting up, if we do not socialize just in order to let people go, if we self-censor and if we do not defend ourselves.
People are prone to biases and cognitive fallacies - and avoidance means ignoring this phenomena of wrong impressions and misunderstandings just for the sake of peace, love and understanding. With time, this will fester, by other people who do not have love and understanding, by people who do not follow our rules of universal love and peace and it will explode eventually - because they will work themselves up with hate and aggression. And guess who will they see as easy target, as a punching bag that is always silent and who silently take all the blame?
I think this is your error - you think other people follow your rules. That all people are willing to listen to you. That all people are willing to be healthy and normal part of civilized group. You think that all people are willing to follow guidelines. You think that all people are willing to live and share. Well, I am sorry but there are certain people who are not so prone to be good citizens and good human beings. In fact, it is their goal to be the opposite.
My big realization was that there are certain number of people who are like that, people who do not care for life. And that they do not deserve our time and energy.
...without codependents are like, oh please let me hire some codependents so we'll get all this shit done so I don't have to do it"
:D :D
And then there is what I call external factor comes in - narcissists, manipulators, exploiters, users, abusers, borderliners - who will trigger our shame and guilt and make us into slaves by picking on our wound: by criticizing us, blaming us for things out of our control, mocking and making drama from our shortcomings and first-time errors, repeating and pinpointing those whenever possible, as flashbacks, they will complain, lie, nitpick, throw temper tantrum - and it will work, because we see others as perfect people, superior, better ones, competent and good, we are totally unaware of External factor phenomena, that some people are crappy and we must get away from them or minimize contact/gray rock if fled is not the option at the moment.
"at least for a while until the codependent employee gets angry and resentful"
With people like me who went through Complex Trauma this is never. We were programmed not to feel anger- Instead of anger we make excuses and rationalizations for external factor. We see they are wounded and faulty in their childhoods and we think that they feel the same anxiety and uncomfortable unbearable emotions as we do so we forgive them and go beyond the shadow of the doubt. I would share personal information, believing that they care, while instead they were curious and use given information for future shaming, mocking and control. And "who's controlling whom" - yeah by being forgiving I think they will like me and they won't be angry and it will be peace. I've learned that cognitive distortions are actually urge to control other people. It feels like I am dealing and managing outer factor, while in fact I try to control others.
I got angry and resentful only when I started to watch You tube videos about Narcissists and Toxic people - until then I was under hypnosis, I did not understand or grasp that there are people out there who exploit others and are devoid of empathy, and that there are people out there with sole purpose to hurt others and cause damage, as the only meaning in their lives. Instead I accepted them and I would advocate their terrible behaviour as normal and accepting and that it is all my fault if happened, I provoked it, I was somehow responsible for their anger - especially if they pinpointed by mistakes, errors, shortcomings. That was enough of proof that I am wrong by default, and they are superior and should be listened to and that whatever they say is taken as order, command and ultimate truth that must never be brought in question.
Peterson is part of right-wing mentality - he is part of society that enables the evil to exist. He focus on ourselves and puts the blame on us, that we are responsible, that we must fix everything and that if other people mess up - it is somehow our mistake, our responsibility for other people being evil, and making damage to society.
His advice that we must do certain steps is mental distortion, cognitive distortion - all or nothing thinking, magnification. He implies that we are unworthy and damaged if we do not measure up to certain standards - and by some magic - he puts himself in position to tell us what these standards are. Since he belongs to conservative, right-wing society - he trains and programs us to be a sheep. He promises heaven and abundance - only if we do as we are being told. He implies we are by default inept and that there is something deeply wrong with us. He ignores the external factor - that there are abusers out there that should be institutionalized and not be allowed to taint the general healthy public, he ignores the existence of manipulators, narcissists, exploiters, users, parasites, emotional vampires, borerdliners - and instead he says it is all our responsibility, we are omnipotent, we can control other people through following instructions and steps laid out by people like him - but guess what- dehumanizing others allows dictators to thrive.
I think he has some mental problems, he is mentally unstable and instead of healing himself, he spread mental instability to others, preaching cognitive distortions to people, pulling inner critic inside us all to make us feel ashamed for our honest, human mistakes and shortcomings, and this is what conservative does. They are mentally ill people who parasite upon people who are obedient, good, who listen to others, people who listen to authority. And that makes him and conservatives very dangerous. Soon enough, if we do not recognize people like him as quack, we have Milgram experiment live.
"Fix the things you do everyday"
He is hypnotizing us to believe that we are wrong by default, that we are damaged and that we need constant fixing. The paradox is that if we accept ourselves and our faults, we can be able to start anything. But if we believe that we need fixing, then it is actually someone controlling us, we allow others to chase the carrot they put in front of us.
We are the ones who need to recognize what needs to be fixed - but only if we accept ourselves as we are, damaged and all. And we need to do it because of ourselves, for our own worth, not because of seeking approval by others, seeking external validation.
Peterson is training us to be a sheep for corporations, obeying and taking commands from others, allowing others to tell us what needs to be fixed and that there is always something to be fixed - that we spend money and resources to corporations and quacks making us believe we are sick and that they hold the panacea, it is a hamster wheel.
1) external reference - seeing other people as valid, better, more experienced, superior...so I adjust my goals, opinions and tasks according to others - their opinions, demands, and I never question them, perhaps they are idiots or psychopaths, fake or actors pretending to be confident
2) external validation - seeking other people approval
3) trauma bonding - since I see myself as inferior, I see myself as guilty automatically and in everything, no matter what situation, cause or event - I feel ashamed just for being there on that place. So the solution is that I make invisible shackles with other person, so whatever this person feels, I feel to. It also means I must fix this other person, I must attend to them, so that they feel good and make everything pleasant for them, including avoiding conflict and confrontation or saying anything controversial. And if they accuse me of something I must shut up, self censor and I must not voice out my opinion, my hidden voice inside, my truth that is urging to get out of my mouth - I just stifle it - because if they hate me, this means I am worthless - since my worth is connected with other people. They smile, I smile, They're angry - I am guilty. They feel moody - it is my duty to not bother them.
4) fawning - many people know that response to stress is fight or flight, but the newest findings show that there are 4F responses to stress: Fight (be aggressive), flight (avoidance), freeze (passive) and fawn (people pleasing and codependency). Fawning is response that is natural and normal reaction to abnormal people. We try to survive by smiling to other people, to make them comfortable, to serve them, to obey them, to learn what is bothering them so that we do not bothering them. This makes us super easy targets for narcissists, psychopaths, manipulators, exploiters, abusers and emotional vampires and parasites.
So what is mechanism that is keeping the fear motor going? These are:
1) Complex Trauma - this means in our dysfunctional childhood we were programmed by narcissistic environment to obey and serve other people. If we complained we would get punished. During the day we were constantly judged, criticized, nagged, complained about everything, we were scapegoats - and this all went under the radar, this is normal settings for us, because we grew up with this verbal and emotional abuse, we now as adults expect to be ashamed and it does not feel normal if the other person is normal, kind and respecting us. It feels yucky to us to be around such person, because we know that if we feel good and if we relax - they will slap us to the ground and wallow us in pain and hurt.
2) brain injury - being exposed to psychopaths in early age causes our brain to malfunction. Actually we are being prepared by mentally ill people to either become mentally ill - they have small amygdala - this means they do not feel emotions and they have no capacity for empathy - so they hurt other people in order to process their emotions and wounds that they got from their childhood upbringing. Or another alternative way is to become slave, a people pleaser, someone who is afraid if conflict and confrontation.
3) amygdala hijacking - another response to stress is according to the Polyvagal Theory (google it) to be hyperalert, hypervigilant all the time, so that we anticipate when will next grenade been thrown by other people. Either imagined or real - we do not notice it, but we are in state of fear. It happens automatically, it happens as if under hypnosis - so this is as if being hijacked in airplane - you no longer go to your destination, it is in the hands of our fears, anxieties and other people - who pull strings of our amygdala as puppet on the string. So they throw temper tantrum and we dance according to the song they play. We do all this automatically and we are not aware what is going on. That is the point of hijacking.
4) external factor - official psychiatry and mentors, motivators focus on the individual. They say we are the problem. They focus on our symptoms. It is the same as to say a light skinned person that it is their fault that they get sun burn so easily - that they should develop thick skin. The problem is external. If there were no mentally ill people, we would not develop fear of conflict. Fear of confrontation is normal reaction to abnormal people. But - due to complex trauma and trauma bonding - and because of society that puts blame on victim - we think we are the sole problem - and we try to fix ourselves. This leads to fawning with time. This will develop into people pleasing in time. This will strengthen our inferiority complex. There are also another kind of people - borderliners - they are half done narcissists. These people appear warm, kind and friendly - but they have temper tantrums in the same time - so we make excuses for them, we know they are wounded since they told us their hidden life trauma too quickly and too soon - and with time they throw drama more often and they control us through personal information that we gave them. These people are also external factor. They exploit others and we should not feel sorry for them. In general we stay silent to external factor and we do not voice our opinion, we make up any kind of excuses and rationalizations why we are not honest to them - by this I mean that we self censor our thoughts of defense inside our minds. We know what to say to them, but we wish not to rock the boat. We don't want to stir the pot. We want peace - and these kind of people parasite on our need for peace, diplomacy and need to have normal, civilized lives.
5) cognitive distortions - as immature ego defense mechanism, we developed a way of thinking traps that appear as a way to deal with pain and hurt caused by external factor - so we develop perfectionism: we think we will not be attacked if we go extra mile and do everything perfect. Unfortunately, there will always be someone critical, no matter how perfect it is - simply because of idiots who do not understand it, or because of psychopaths who care only to hurt other beings, just for the sake of hurting them - the job we do is not important to them - their focus in causing pain to others, even by play pretend that they care so they abuse others to show they care in this way ( to belittle, criticize, nag, ashame others). Another cognitive distortion is shoulds - we were programmed in our dysfunctional childhood that we should be good, that we should be nice. If we feel bad, we should not show it. If we feel angry, we should not talk about it. If someone is in pain, we should be good and help them, no matter who this person is, because it is expected of a good person to do this. We should have material things, because this means we are good. We should make money because this means we are worthy. We should impress others because they will notice us, love us and they won't make plans and plots against us or hurt us. Cognitive distortions are a hidden way of controlling others, we try to control external factor, external events by our thoughts which is unrealistic, delusion and not objective.
So what is the solution?
1) It is in realization that we need to start speaking up. Dunning–Kruger effect tells us that dumb people are the loudest, while the most intelligent ones are quiet. The dumb people over-voice others, while we keep quiet. Also, by keeping quiet, evil flourishes. We need to start talking. We think the other person will yell at us. Let them. We can defend ourselves. We think we cannot defend ourselves because of physical symptoms of fear - I think this will go away after we learn about concepts that I described above (External referencing, trauma bonding, fawning etc). Also we think that we will not know what to say. We do. We have experience. We think things through - we have enough information inside to say the right thing. The other person will try to defend themselves by Ad Hominem attacks - we just simple state the obvious, we describe elephant in the room - we do not silent the voice inside that wants to get out of our mouth, the truth, the obvious truth. We try to hide it in order to protect the other person, because we are afraid that we will hurt the other person - and due to trauma bonding we match our emotions to them - let them feel the pain. They will either be ashamed - and they should be since they were wrong and aggressive. They will pretend to be ashamed - since they have small amygdala, they can't feel the shame. They exploit our need to care, they exploit our common sense, they exploit our following the unwritten social rules, etiquette and they abuse us by raping our kindness. It is crucial to alarm and alert the other person. We do not need to yell. We do not need to curse - we can simply state the obvious and ignore their pleads and things they say. Being assertive means stating our opinion - but in the same time we do not expect them to change or to obey us. The difference is in our talking, our speaking out. I see the most damage done is being silent to the evil people. The damage being both inner, psychological and outer - them abusing others and having their plans develop according to their dumb and non-empathetic ways. On grander scale - we have fat corporations that destroy the nature & environment for their profit.
2) Knowledge and information. It is like lighting a light in a very dark room. Since we are afraid of conflict - the obvious solution is in learning common communication fallacies, biases that people have. So we learn about Socratic method - we play Columbo on them, we make pretend that we are dumb and let them explain themselves - Socrates discovered that there is no absolute truth, so everyone is correct and wrong in the same time. Anything is dualistic - so no one can have monopole on the truth. And people who are prone to conflict think they are allowed to stick to their truth - which is often biased, wrong and harmful to others (since they are narcissists, psychopaths). By learning fallacies in arguments we learn that there is concept called Ad Hominem - which means that very often people will attack you personally instead of argument - and we shut up because they curse us or pinpoint our shortcoming or some error - but this does not make them correct, right or valid. So we can state this fact-.
3) Intrinsical values. Own worth. Self worth. Self confidence or self esteem is not when you have money, power - because these can be taken away at any moment. They may make you feel powerful, good and strong - but it is prone to change. The same way alcohol or drugs can make us feel strong - but they will wear off with time and they are dangerous for our health and well being. The solution is in having the realization that we can rely on our experience and our opinions. It means that we are being find with our mistakes, blunders, shortcomings and errors. This is what external factor (manipulators) exploit in us - they toxically ashame our natural and common, everyday mistakes as the worst thing that could happen in the world and we think they are correct. This is a lie. It is not the worst thing and everyone makes mistakes, especially if they are done for the first time, or if we lack enough knowledge and information. As Socrates said, no one can know everything, because we are limited as human beings. We cannot have all information - so we will create biases and fallacies as shortcuts to life problems and issues. This fear of making mistakes stem from Complex Trauma. So having self worth means that we do things in life for ourselves, not because of recognition of others. This means that we allow ourselves to make mistakes, that we allow ourselves to turn out to be wrong, to make fool of ourselves, to appear dumb. Instead of hiding toxic shame, we are humble and we show it, we admit we do not know something.
4) It comes down to be honest and authentic. When we are not harming others, when we do not wish bad things to others, when we are not aggressive and when we decide not to carry worry and fears - this naturally will lead to conflict and confrontation. IT is because of external factor - bad people who have evil goals, they exploit others, and these parasites thrive by crossing other people boundaries. They use toxic shame to control us - but if we are aware that we are good, that we done nothing wrong - our job is very simple - just state the obvious - voice out the elephant in the room. External factor hates transparency - and this is our secret weapon. Being honest and authentic. This is why they try to ahame us through Ad Hominem, they want to use our errors and shortcomings as a way to shut us up, to silence us. But if we are aware of the concepts described above - there is nothing to be ashamed about since we are good people. We shut up because we bond with other people -especially with the sick ones, we believe they are superior just because they are loud and aggressive, and we were programmed as kids to fawn to others. We do not need to go to war with them - we simply state the obvious - and normal person would listen to us, most people would stop or talk normally with you.
Abnormal people scream, yell - and you do not need to stand and listen to them. The important thing is that we said out what we think - because we would cut contact with them anyway - now at least they know why we doorslam them out of our life.
What bothers me are people (even official psychiatry) focusing on the individual and totally ignoring the external factor (people as narcissists, exploiters, users, abusers, manipulators, emotional vampires, parasites) as the cause, instigator and maintenance of mental instability in the target. They say "Words can't hurt you", or that there are no toxic people out there, only wounded ones - so we should make excuses and rationalizations for them and feel sorry for them actually :D OR the idea that other person cannot make me feel anything, that I can magically choose to respond and react. These prejudgements, fallacies and biases additionally hurt and cause pain - and in the end they do not help at all - they make additional damage.
The truth is that I can do everything by the book, I can follow the most perfect advice in how to deal with high conflict person - how to respond and react to them - and still in the same time develop serious anxiety issues, extreme fawning, suicidal idealizations and phobias from people, just by being in contact with them. And it is because of external factor - that many people do not understand - we do not deal with normal and healthy and sane people. These people are mentally ill, they do not follow unwritten social rules, they operate on their imagined twisted violent world inside them and they will try everything that we fit in that fantasy world of sickness, as slaves, scapegoats, energy source and punching bags.
Or they will say cut the contact with them - well, there are situations where we can't - due to job, resources, shelter, finances, help, service.
I find this very helpful:
"There is no danger there."
This should be our goal. Our mantra.
Social anxiety is state of hypervigilance and hyperalert, and for some unknown reason, there is not yet official connection between Complex Trauma and Social anxiety/avoidance. But it does come down in resolving social anxiety that we feel on par with other people. Instead of inferiority complex. And to be at ease with my body.
What way can we social anxiety triggers (other people's controlling, blaming, criticizing, nagging) transform into observing it without hypervigilance, without observing it as an extreme danger, as we were programmed in our dysfunctional childhood. To transform it into non danger and that we perceive and explain it in our head that there is no danger.
The same way as driving phobia - is starts as panic, but with time you get used to it.
Without it, people would not have diplomacy, there would be no peace in the world. People would be cannibals. When you drive, you would not be able to come to main road because all people already on the main road would never give you the right to pass because they all feel entitled to drive fast, to be the prime, to be the first, to be the fastest - which obviously leads to never resolving confrontations and conflicts - if everyone thinks that they should not fawn.
And since we responded early on to Complex Trauma through people pleasing, I think it is now a part of our personality, it is ingrained, it is ingrown, it is where we feel comfortable with. I would not reject it in full. It is a mask that become our face. It is our persona, or at least huge part of it.
And furthermore, the "sanity" and health and mental balance is that we operate from being spontaneous, that we do not need solid concrete rigid steps, instructions, orders and command how to live our lives. Therefore, when the ball is thrown - it will default based on our muscles, what we are focused and how we learned as kids to grip a ball.
I would remove, reject and perform psychological surgery on parts of fawning that is easy to operate, and that is helpful without having it: and that is instead of shutting up by default, instead of self-censorship that we transform ourselves to be honest and authentic, to speak out, to express ourselves, even if we turn out stupid, dumb, weird or any other label or Ad Hominem argument that others will throw at us.
So your channel is healthy example of expressing ourselves, and it is encouraging for others, that others express themselves.
We are not mean, evil people, we do not plot evil schemes to hurt others (as our toxic shame lie us through intrusive thoughts and anxiety and try to convince us that we are bad people for being weak, silent, fearful and timid). We are not bad people - so we have nothing to hide - we can talk, we can voice our opinions, we can speak out things that pop up to our mind when someone accuse us but we shut up in order not to rock the boat - and we never voice the truth out, we don't express and pinpoint at the elephant in the room. This part of fawning is extremely damaging psychologically - and I would remove only that part - being silent automatically as response to fear, being quiet when someone attacks us and shutting up to unfair criticism - or going to another extreme - trying to defend ourselves again and again.
Having issue in saying no to boss that asks us to work overtime - is it people pleasing?
What is intuition here and objective reality. What happens if there are no people who are fawning?
The world would have no diplomacy, there would be cannibals everywhere, constant wars and conflicts and confrontations. It is like driving to a main road and you can get to the main road because drivers already present there feel entitled, they are all refuse to people please, they see fawning as weakness. The drivers on the main road would also all drive fast - since their need is the most important thing in the world, their own urge is the only thing that is important - imagine living in a world like that.
Instead of getting taking advantage of, I would negotiate.
Does restaurant manager ask you all the time, are you the only person he asks? If you already stepped in 10 times before - in that case I would protest and point this out - and probably change the job if it is obvious exploitation going on. BUT - if this is a freak incident, if this is not re-occurring behaviour, I would help them out.
Regarding my issues with social anxiety - my primal and more prominent fear is fear from aggressive people, people how are loud, obnoxious and aggressive - so I developed fawning and people pleasing as to deal with this fear. Therefore, someone taking advantage of me is already a natural progression of events that are triggered by much larger phobia.
I did learn thanks to Complex Trauma information that I should collect all information instead of jumping to the first thought and making harsh sudden quick decision. It is also important to be honest and authentic and fair. It is not reasonable to expect that I am entitled, that the world should not have problems and that I must not fix it - especially as people pleaser that I fix others even when they do not ask for help.
I would accept the plead - but I would also try to see if it is fair, objective and realistic. Does it happen all the time? At what frequency is this repeating? And as I said, as long as they do not pick on my larger wound, this wound of being taken advantage is pretty small.
he said that if we see the world through labels of something is evil - we will create it by our label. Something like self-fulfilling prophecy if we talk about evil and recognize its existence.
I tried to reason with him - that many people already believe that world is without labels, and this lack of labeling evil is making us easy target to evil to thrive and manipulate us - and I lacked this concept - toxic positivity - in order to explain my view in full.
It seems to me you are over-generalizing people - I do this too. When I am in bad mood, I tend to notice general pattern of negativity where there is none actually.
And I noticed that this is connected to being ungrateful and taking things for granted around me, that I am not aware of diamonds I have while being busy in judging the stones around. So the problem is my perception - not the stones.
Why people accept this world? I think most of them (those that you described - kissing ass and chasing money) are not intelligent enough that they realize where they are and what is going on really. As you said, they chase a carrot in front of them that money, prestige and material things will provide them in the future if they run fast enough. Perhaps they are aware of dysfunction but it is too painful to dwell on it because they are not so strong as you are... So this concept of "Maslow needs" influencing our decisions is how we got conditioned - when we experience pain, it is a trigger to cover it up quickly. Some people do it with money or some other quick fix... yet some people, like you or me, stop and ask ourselves what's the point?
What I discovered is that we should look at the world from sci-fi point of view :D
Imagine it as if we are space travelers, and we explore different worlds in the universe - and our current mission is living on Earth. So we actually have to learn how to live on Earth - and perhaps use our knowledge from our true home planet to help stupid Earthlings in certain areas of life - one of them to ask themselves what is the true meaning of life?
And.. perhaps all people here on this planet come from different dimensions and systems - and they carry their beliefs from their original home planets.
So.. we can learn them, meet them, talk with them, exchange experiences. Since we will be here on Earth for perhaps 80 years, we might use this time to explore its past, culture, sports, nature, different countries. Perhaps our mission is to explore mental health and discover the mechanism - why I am prone to cognitive distortions like over-generalization, and is there a cure for it? What my decisions would be like if my cognitive distortions do not run my decision making process? Perhaps our mission why we are here on this planet - is a secret and it is hidden for some mysterious reason, and we need to discover it by following our intuition and perks, and caprices. That the realization that the act of explaining and setting rules - is actually being a mission for itself.
I believe as Timothy Leary said every one of us has a piece of puzzle inside - and this should be shared with others. And that alone explains why we are here. For example, Nikola Tesla received instructions in a form of hallucinations how to invent - and it was not mere delusions, since we have electricity now thanks to him, he invented radio and others inventions that were stolen from him. It is said that in his youth, he discovered a way to filter out the noise in his head and to tune into the incoming signal for new ideas.
Perhaps, we also have this ability. Maybe we do not have incoming signal for extreme and drastic ideas - but they might be useful in the grand scheme of things.
In your example, your videos are as I see preoccupied with anti-natalism. As I read many biographies and I like to explore history - I have noticed that people who are "obsessed" over certain idea - it is a sign that they want to explore certain aspect of life on this planet. I'd say - dig this deeper. Perhaps you desire to learn about sociology more. Perhaps your mission, heart desire is to travel around the world and see for yourself why people procreate when they live in such poor countries. Perhaps you will come up with new, groundbreaking idea or philosophy or invention that will help people - I don't know, maybe it will help the poor ones to stop procreating and creating more misery or poverty. Or... maybe you will discover the opposite - something shocking to you - perhaps that life is worth of living and that having kids is a joy on its own and it gives you a meaning to live.
I've been plagued in my teen years with anti-life thoughts and I felt miserable. I have learned that being positive, keeping the good mood is important (as Voltaire said), that when I feel bad and negative that it is not healthy even though it appears as normal and regular chain of natural events - it is not. I trust there are negative influences in this world, and we have to fight it. It is like we choose to be good or bad. And that is also perhaps the reason why we are here on this planet - to get filtered and marked - to be tested - who's side we serve. :D
"Being assertive can be viewed as being aggressive if you're too honest with your feelings and thoughts. When you're very forward and honest, some people view that as being aggression, arrogant of ignorant."
This is why it is important not to shut up, not to self-censor ourselves. It is because if we do not let our truth, our opinion be known, people are prone to biases, logical fallacies, shortcuts in conclusions - and they often get things wrong without being aware that they come to false conclusions. So, our talking is the only way that they can know we have a part of story that is unknown to them, part of crucial information that is missing from their awareness. Many motivators and intelligent people will say :"Intelligent people ignore stupid or aggressive people" - but the act of ignoring gives the green light for bullies to abuse us. Some people are not aware that their anger is based on false and incorrect information. Some people are not aware that they are hurting others - and they will stop once they were alerted and warned. With that being said.. ;
"It's important when you're assertive that you don't let others views on things gets you all hung up on maybe they're right. You want to consider their viewpoints but you still have to stick by what you taught yourself and your own values."
Yeah, this is the problem, right there - there are people out there who are really aggressive, arrogant and ignorant.
They abuse unwritten social rules about communication and talking and sorting things out only to vent their anger, to use other people as punching bags, or to dominate over easy targets - people who are quiet, normal, kind, friendly.
Some people use being honest to belittle others and to force their opinions on others. It is their way or highway. There is no cooperation. There is no listening to others, it is only me-me-me. I call these people "external factor", because we are not aware that they are dangerous for our mental health. They appear friendly, they appear wounded, they appear needy and this is their scheme to exploit easy targets. And to make things complex - sometimes we live in our own delusions and wrong conclusions so we make quick assumption about aggressive person - and we block them out immediately, we label them as troll - and we refuse to listen to them, as they appear to us as external factor, but in reality they are not, they simply lack social skills, such as not using curse words if the other person is not cursing for example. They do not tune into other person vocabulary, tone and expressions, so they appear aggressive - but they simply lack basic communication empathy.
"maybe it would be time to walk away from that, so many people are afraid to do that"
This is another problem. There are people who were raised and grew up with external factor, negative influence - someone who raised them with toxic shame, constant criticism, blaming and scapegoating as a way of communicating. Thus later as adults, through Complex Trauma byproducts they developed external referencing, external validation, introjection, fawning and inferiority complex, social anxiety and avoidance - and this means they observe other people as guides, and every word from strangers is their command, order, especially if the other person is loud, vulgar, violent and aggressive.
Therefore this part:
"It's important when you're assertive that you don't let others views on things gets you all hung up on maybe they're right. "
this is very hard for them.
And the paradox is - that such people need your message the most. They lack this knowledge, they lack this information. It is like being raised in USSR as kid, and you come to America - and you do not understand that people have their own self worth, that people are allowed to make mistakes and own them, that they are not severely ashamed to the core about who are as a person just for not being perfectionist and serving and obeying the commands from authority (whatever that might be).
"You want to consider their viewpoints but you still have to stick by what you taught yourself and your own values. "
This part is crucial.
People with inferiority complex are programmed to be ashamed of their opinions, and others criticism is being seen as proof that they are wrong as a person by default - and somehow other people are more clever, competent, stronger, and better.
I see acceptance of our values as the missing link for people who struggle with being assertive. Being ok with our wrong choices, of turning up stupid, of looking wrong, accepting our weirdness, that we might be a bore.
I also think that people who struggle with assertiveness have indeed different viewpoints or expressions that are different from the masses and they were being told by their environment, media or inner critic (as residue from dysfunctional childhood) that they must fit into society - by being quiet, by not expressing themselves, to serve and obey others automatically, to never tell their opinion...or else if someone disagrees this means automatically that everyone hates them, that they are wrong by default as person.
I see the solution as you said - being honest and authentic. If we do not have evil intentions, if we are not thieves, if we do not plan harm for other people - there is no reason why we should shut up. And in fact people who do have evil intentions will be the protagonists who will try to shut us up - as the truth reveals their hidden schemes, their web of deceit, their lies and this makes truth teller the dangerous one. So it also takes a courageous person who will point out the elephant in the room.
But as I see from my life experience, keeping quiet, self-censorship, not letting our voice out in the open, not voicing out the clear instruction and message of defense curled inside us to be let out of our mouth, not defending ourselves, not telling the obvious truth - is detrimental to mental health. It's because evil flourishes when people are silent.
I struggle with social anxiety. It's more than about worrying what other people think - It is my command what other people think.
I love negative comment part 29:00
funny and informative - we put energy in something - even if it is negative - we will get back the more focus on this. This is how life works.
The thing that springs up to my mind about this comfort zone issue - is the existence of evil - which naturally, it is obvious issue. What happens when you have external factor that is sabotaging you either from stepping outside of as you said - you are not even aware of all knowledge so you miss the ability to recognize and label the negative influences that are making huge impact on detrimental decisions, such as being ok by running on auto-pilot.
I think that it would help with any issue in life, including stepping outside of comfort zone - that we are aware of negative influences and our hard work in weeding out the evil. People who are afraid - when they step outside of comfort zone - they will focus on their symptoms, and if they have inner critic, they will listen to cognitive distortions and believe the lies that anxiety is telling us. When the correct procedure would be - when we are in unknown surroundings - to learn it, to know what we are dealing with, gather and process information - and know that in any situation, in any event, in any surroundings - there is always constant need to clean and weed out the bad things. That way, instead of being afraid of the unknown, we are prepared for hard work - that might not be so hard if we like cleaning :D
We can and may said the most perfect things, we may react in the best possible way - and still it might not work! This part is important to mention because we at the receiving end may feel guilty because it didn't work and it may seem to us that we did not give our best or that we failed, that we are the reason why it did not end up well. Sometimes doing the right thing and doing the best steps - does not have a desired effect and sometimes it does not resolve the situation. If we are not aware of this, it will mentally destroy our confidence because we will blame ourselves for the failure - while objectively this is not true at all. Without this realization, we may develop PTSD symptoms and harm ourselves by overthinking and OCD, trying to solve the situation which is unrealistic to solve and totally beyond our control.
Another important thing to mention is the aftereffect. Empathetic people (and usually those will work in customary services) cannot shake it off, they cannot block negative energy and negative people response. This is because we have normal size amygdala, as oppose to people who can be calm and people who can seemingly not be disturbed by psychopats and very rude people. These people - both rude people and people who are not bothered by rude people are sick, they are mentally ill. Unfortunately, in our society, especially at the West, loud, obnoxious and aggressive people are looked upon as healthy, strong, valid and competent. In reality, they are not - they simply have a facade, and instead of not working from amygdala, they have an advantage to operate from cortex part of brain, which gives illusion of them being the smarter ones. They are not, - the best example can be seen in current situation with Brexit - where Boris Johnson brought the country in chaos, or at politicians in the Balkans, where mafia types of governments lead their countries to poverty for decades.
So the inability to shake if off is normal and healthy, and it means we have functional empathy - it is not a sign that we are over-sensitive - as explained by lesser humans presenting themselves as superior.
There are techniques how to deal with intrusive thoughts - such as methods for PureOCD, but it is important to realize the anxiety and uncomfortable feelings we might feel are normal reaction to abnormal people. Another technique in dealing with intrusive thoughts that we copy-paste how we do not care about smaller things in our lives - how they are not important to us, we already have the mechanism inside us.
Knowing these two things can prevent us from developing inferiority complex.
I understand this concept.. but it doesn't help. I wish it would! :(
this is the reason why:
I have severe social anxiety and avoidance issues for 30 years, and only in 2015 after I read hundreds of self help psychology books - that I extracted all information available from them that I discovered that the core problem are intrusive thoughts.
So every week I search "Intrusive thoughts" videos available on You tube, so this is how this video attracted me.
In 2015 I found the concept of PureOCD - which was a great help and I got information that I previously had no idea - that as you said, thoughts and emotions and reality are different, they do not have to be fused and glued together. Cognitive defusion concept. Also I learned methods such as ERP, ACT - where I deliberately make mistakes in order to provoke the symptoms and see that nothing bad will happen. IT worked pretty well for few months,,, until one day I was replacing my coworker and the person over the phone was director's secretary and she was rude and asking me to break in the meeting currently in the progress and that I must get one of person out this meeting immediately. I said I can't and she threw temper tantrum. Since I suffer from social anxiety, hysterical people over the phone are one of my caprice phobia. :D
This whole situation stuck with me and it often comes back in my mind in form of intrusive thought. I see myself at the mercy of someone in charge, asking me something that I do not know how to do - without upsetting the bunch of other people in the process.
So I have problem with intrusive thought about my shortcomings that spring up when the other person observes it, judges and criticize it and orders me to do something that I do not know how to do, or I do not know how to do perfectly. This is the central intrusive thought that leech on me and I cannot shake it off.
Obviously, this is related to social anxiety and it is pervasive - it is all compassing - it effects many areas and such it is crippling, making me invalid to lead a normal life - by being constantly alert and hypervigilant about entering into similar situations like this.
I am aware it is connected to toxic shame and Complex Trauma and cognitive distortions such as perfectionism, catastrophizing, magnification etc. Also, I am aware it is connected to external referencing and trauma bond and introjecting- that I see myself as inferior while I see other people as superior in anything and I must serve them and see anything they say as ultimate truth and command. I can downplay it in my mind by knowing all these information... yet I get flashbacks and triggers in form of intrusive thoughts - imagining past experiences where someone criticized me and expected me to do something scary, or I think this will repeat in the future, in some new settings. I am aware of amygdala and that during adrenaline rush, I have a different personality than when I am calm down, in safe place, and when I operate from cortex part of brain.
And I do try to normalize and balance it, seeing it all as okay, and that it doesn't really matter (something like Socrates method).
What I discovered yesterday was when I read Viktor Frankl quotes, is that when I am stuck and in obsessive mode, PureOCD mode, that I actually think one-sided. I do not allow plethora of other democratic, opposition explanations and I stick to one belief - and this makes me stuck in tunnel vision.
So - it occurred to me that I am very successful at ignoring intrusive thoughts of less intensity. So I simply need to repeat the steps that I already do with things that are intrusive but I do not find them super-dangerous. By focusing on other stuff and go along my day as usual. And that when I cut contact, when I am physically away - that I have done everything in my power, so I do not need to carry guilt anymore. This tells me that the methods are already inside me - the problem is only in viewing intrusive thoughts as super important, super dangerous.
Intrusive thoughts are like an allergy. Instead of physical one, I have the ability to influence this mental type of allergy through my imagination, thoughts, knowledge and gathered information.
I think our minds try to protect us - and when it faces situations that we perceive as phobia, anxiety, scary - it wants to protect us from feeling future pain - and the brain wants us to come up with an idea or plan or instructions how to deal with the dangerous events or people in the future.
Certain situation or people are unsolvable. We can do everything by the book, we can follow the etiquette, we can follow written and unwritten rules - and it still would not be enough. And I think in such situations intrusive thoughts are persistent.
So yeah, I would concentrate on us thinking how to minimize the perception of danger. Perhaps - in my case, I can minimize intrusive thoughts by alarming and alerting people instead of my current mode of people pleasing and shutting up, observing others as superior and fawning to them. Maybe I can try to be authentic and honest, without engaging into fight mode, hysteria or aggression. I think this part of me freezing and fawning is actually bothering me, and this is creating intrusive thoughts because I feel open and vulnerable to psychological, verbal and emotional abuse from hysterical people, bullies, narcissists, manipulators.
I also noticed that when intrusive thought is stuck on me like a leech, that it is not me who is doing this. The thought is coming from external event, it was done to me. I did not initiate it, I was not instigator of the scary event that is replaying in my mind, as PTSD. With social anxiety and inferiority complex, I see myself responsible for anything, for other people, for other people reactions and actions - it is all my fault automatically. So it is as if I am programmed of hypnotized to feel guilty and this guilt is giving power to intrusive thoughts. I see it like my perception of what is right and what is wrong, and somehow if someone is rude - it is a sign that I am a bad person just because they feel angry and display anger at me (due to external referencing I see them as my worth).
So as I understand, in my case, intrusive thoughts are multi-dimensional problem :D
They are the result of programming from dysfunctional childhood, toxic environment, toxic shame, normal reaction to abnormal people and abnormal situations, cognitive distortions, inferiority complex and lack of intrinsic values - being placed into external validation.
With all that, it would be strange that I do not have intrusive thoughts
1) Intrusive thoughts might be as a LED lights on a control board. When they light up, when we get intrusive thoughts, it is actually a sign something else is wrong. But we focus instead of light bulbs - while we should be looking what is behind it. For example - my intrusive thoughts are connected to other people who are rude and aggressive - so the intrusive thought is a signal to me, that external referencing is strong - believing that other people opinion is my command, order and guideline
and
2) Karma - yeah, I noticed that my anxieties started in the same year when I had revelation that I must be a good person, and choose good instead of bad. I think you might be onto something with this. I mean, we are good people in our core, we do not need to join a Karma party and become karma police. We will never hurt anyone, we do not need to be reminded of this. We are good people, so any additional message how we should good - is unhealthy. :D
Also, karma might be a way how to control people - or at least good people. You throw temper tantrum at them and they will shut up, obey and listen to the abuser, manipulator. Perhaps, we should do something in this compartment, so that we do not get taken advantage of, by throwing toxic shame and guilt on us.
We see evil in the movies, in the news, through gossip and we try to process it, but it is hard really to understand the evil because it simply is not us. You cannot compare it truly to anything and thus integrate it as some concept that will tell us what evil really is.
And this makes us incredibly easy target, we are gullible - and we forget too easily. We try to make connection with it - even if it is negative thought antagonism or verbally voicing it out as disgusting - in hope that it will somehow change and become better. This is all part of forgiveness process, that we learned that how we handle other human beings when they do something detrimental, bad - and we realize it was result of complex mistake or shortcoming or lack of knowledge.
So instead of forgiveness, which implies that we are dealing with the human being on the other side- I think if we recognize the external factor as concept how to deal with evil people, we can put ourselves in much higher, better and healthier position -and observe those people from their perspective - we see them as virus. This means, instead of forgiving and thinking about them - it is about seeing such people as something that is external - it should stay out, it belongs outside. It's easier to door slam it because you realize there are nor doors neither a person on the other side. It is external, not belonging to our human being dimension. It is unable to form connection with it, there is no warmth, there is no communication, nothing, it is external - observing it as a micro virus literally - something that is not payed attention to - you know it only causes harm - but you do not see it and should not see it.
For example, people may live in a poor and high conflict country. Of course, weaker people will complain and nag all the time - they will behave like toxic person. They will try to hide their irritation and inability to handle hardships by projecting their over-sensitivity to others - who appear sensitive- but are really quiet and more intelligent, and process things more in detail, but rather than from one dimension, ego-centric way as their crude fellow.
The point is that there is nothing toxic, they are simply in toxic environment. They are having normal reaction to abnormal situation. Labeling one of them to be toxic would be detrimental.
Another example is the true evil, external factor - that is good at hiding its true face, usually these people are charming. But their sole goal is to exploit others. Then you might find yourself in the presence of such person. Very soon you will sense that something is wrong - and you'll probably blame yourself for having negative feelings and perhaps become irritated to other people and label them toxic - when they do not listen to you or they seem uncaring or not being able to feel negativity.
The point I am making - recognition of toxic people is crucial. Sometimes toxic people hide very well and are hard to recognize. Other times, we label unsuspecting people around us as toxic just because they make one mistake, or they socialize in different ways than we are comfortable with - perhaps they like to tell dark jokes.
So it comes down to being able to detect virus - instead of having allergy reaction (perceiving foreign benign material as very dangerous and throwing itself in irritation and anger emotions without objective ground) or attacking healthy parts - similar to auto-immune disease.
I would say that emotional abuse is relevant in this detection. And videos such as this one serve as great help.
I like the tip where you are problem too - if we are perfectionist, if we try to help, if we are sincere - these more less normal human goals can be used against us. Evil people will rape our kindness and need to socialize and our urge to form friendships.
When you replace the "good person" with "toxic shame" - you are describing the realization I had. Perhaps this information will help someone:
1) This distinction between good and bad creates mental instability and psychological injury and illness in the long term. So this is mental health described in your video actually. People who suffer from social anxiety and avoidance will benefit from this information, realization that we give up on our idea what is a good person.
I noticed that this need to be a good person is the cause of people doubting themselves, making them being prone in developing PureOCD, it is like needle stuck on a record. This need and urge and explanation how to be good, it stems from our shoulds, obligations, rules and toxic shame.
2) When you speak about manipulators, people who take advantage of ideas - this is what I call External factor, and it is often overlooked in mental health industry and by motivators. It is erroneously labeled as toxic people, because this would imply these people have power over us, and that we must build walls, spend time and energy, and money on our walls, mental or physical - while the problem is inside us, which brings me to the next point:
3) toxic shame - I think a lot of people as you said, do not think themselves as a good person, because paradoxically they are good - and be being good, you are humble, you do not see yourself as superior. Otherwise, you would not be good - you would be arrogant and narcissist. The same principle lies in inability to truly recognize evil people, the external factor - this is why it is hard for many people to really understand that there are manipulators out there who will do everything to achieve their goals - and we do not understand it because we judge the world according to ourselves, and we are not evil - so we can't fully understand that there are dangerous people out there, which makes us gullible and easy targets - the kinder the person, the easier target to get exploited.
4) toxic shame at its core is the message we got when we grew up by dysfunctional environment, there was a lack of love. Instead, the caretaking was in a form of blaming and criticizing, constant nagging and relentless pinpointing the errors, which instead of cheering us up, made us into machines, with a belief that we must be perfect and perfectionist, and mistakes, errors and shortcomings were ashamed, ridiculed and punished by our immediate surroundings (parents, educational system, neighborhood)
5) I think Freud was right and we all have super-ego. I see super-ego as a conglomerate of all things we were exposed to - all information and knowledge - that as in Clarke Odyssey 2001, intelligence becomes aware of itself, simply by accumulated information. It becomes a super computer inside our head, a quantum PC, it becomes entity of its own - and it produces information back to us, trying to communicate with us, to inform us what goals we should take, what is the best choice, intuition and sixth sense also comes from here, because this entity operates on higher dimension - and it may communicate with some hypothetical knowledge data such as the Akashic records or perhaps even God or extra dimensional beings. Whatever it is - we have this machine inside us, but we are not aware of it. Freud described it as Super-ego.
5) The problem is dysfunctional childhood that planted inside us ideas what we should be, how should we fit into society - and we try to match these information with our Super Ego - and of course it doesn't work, so we try to run along with super computer inside our head, we try to correct its information, we get cognitive dissonance from information that is broadcasted from Super ego - we find the guidelines ridiculous and strange and unacceptable - because of added toxic shame from our dysfunctional surroundings in the childhood. And this is how inner critic is born, along it explains how personality disorders are started, phobias, anxiety and mental instabilities such as social anxiety. So in order to solve the dilemma - we stop trusting ourselves, we end up with low self worth (low self confidence and low self esteem) - and we turn to external validation, external referencing in order to fit into society. This is like having hand break on while driving, we get stuck so easily because external sources will always complain, and out inner critic will try to match its surface information with higher dimensional machine hidden inside us without success - which means we describe ourselves as non valid.
6) We solve inability to communicate with our super ego by fawning with society, because we know that in order to function with the world, we must be friendly, we must be agreeable. And the official psychology along with new age gurus and religion - all come to conclusion that interdependence is the highest for of human relationship - and that is correct information. But the problem is that the idea of friendliness and agreeableness is filtered and censored by external world that might be tinted with toxic shame of their own, dysfunctional childhood and psychopathy. The shoulds, obligations, our rules are filtered and molded in accordance with people around us - and this makes us extremely socially anxious. The idea of good person is the idea that we formed by matching up and fitting into society, to achieve warmth, friendships and love - but it comes from us as shallow beings, without love inside us. External referencing make us to introject and that we match up our emotions with others - which means if someone throws temper tantrum, we automatically think this person is smart, experienced, better, competent and leader - and we should shut up and self-censor ourselves and let this loud and rude person to guide us, simply because they are aggressive.
7) I discovered that this inability to connect with ourselves comes from toxic shame that was imposed and implanted by dysfunctional members that were close to us when we were growing up. And we hang onto their idea of what goodness is - and this external validation and external referencing makes us very easy to control and manipulate. Toxic shaming, and shaming itself is a tool used to control and manipulate other people. And we do not see this as manipulation of what good person is, we see this as pinpointing our mistakes, errors and shortcomings. From our perspective, it is about criticizing our lack of knowledge. And all these time we can't see that we already have the knowledge - it is inside us, but we do not trust it. We must makes mistakes and errors in order to learn about something, but messages from outer sources, and especially manipulative people is that they turn this natural, growing process into embarrassing act, something shameful and they explain it that we by default are wrong, as person. That is how they manipulate us.
8) My final point is - that toxic shame is illusion. It does not exist. It is immature ego defense mechanism idea that was invented by us, with the "help" of external outer resources (dysfunctional parent, sociopath caretakers, toxic environment) - and we pass it on to our growing up stages, as we grew along. We believed in something that is not real, and it appears real. Toxic shame is hallucination that appears as guiding light to us.
Instead I think it is time to trust our super-ego as guiding light instead. Toxic shame makes us interrupt its ideas, and we try to run along with it, we try to slow it down, we try to understand it -- but we are only human beings, we cannot be God, we cannot be superhuman. We must make mistakes, it is natural and normal part of human experience.
IF we do not wish ill will, if we do not have evil plans, if we do not want to hurt other people - we are a good person. Mistakes and errors that come up should therefore be tolerated by ourselves. The higher messages from our Super-ego will appear as mistakes and errors, especially to dumb and evil people - who will not profit from losing their hidden goals of exploitation and parasiting on easy targets, they will throw temper tantrum and they will not like it.
I think toxic shame prevents us from displaying natural reactions, because we try to obey our self imposed rules and obligations that stem from toxic shame - which is an illusion actually - similar to Wizard of Oz. If we are not aware it is a fraud, we come to it and ask for advice to guide our decisions, but it is wrong since it is not wizard at all. The real wizard is something that we do not ask, we feel it as intuition, it is knowledge within that we accumulated over time and it is now a living mechanism inside us, helping us along, it is the only way we can be truly happy - when we make contact with it and let it guide us.
So in the real world, this revelation will have a shocking effect on our psyche in a good and healthy way. It is about finding the love that we were seeking for so long in the external - in people, food, addictions - and it is about realization we have this super human inside us, something that is larger than us, all memories, knowledge, role models, humour, happiness that we were exposed to and that we cling onto - is a living entity inside us and it tries to communicate with us, but we were unable to see it, because of Flatland effect - seeing only in one dimension while what appears as weird, strange is coming from the other dimension, unknown to us. Vygotsky and Piaget studied the development of human personality and they found out that overcoming ego-centric stage is the final stage in growing up. They also realized that as human beings we are being prepared to use our intelligence in order to solve problems- our toxic shame, our imposed and implanted ideas from other people blocked this natural problem solving ability.
(Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions is a satirical novella by the English schoolmaster Edwin Abbott Abbott, first published in 1884 )
Yeah, I would make connection with being good with "toxic shame" concept - because many people out there carry Sisyphus rock of shame, and they do not connect it with a concept of being good - it is not trusting our own judgement - and we let others explain us what is the correct and perfect way to do things in life. And in reality it is toxic shame that is broadcasting this need and urge to be perfect. It is not in being good - it is a need to be even better than good.
I see this dis-balance of right and good as the core of mental instability, and correcting it as the highway to mental health and emotional regulation. I see the correction in realizing that I have super ego inside me that guides me - with mistakes included in the package.
I see it like - are we basically not persona of evil people - than everything we do is ok. We do not want to hurt someone, we do not enjoying in hurting and causing pain to others, so this means being ok with our mistakes and shortcomings, too.
Instead of being ashamed for making mistake - we should speak up and voice our disagreement when being prejudged or accused of unfair accusations.
Speaking the truth might be uncomfortable, voicing out the elephant in the room, too. And people who do not like the truth will try to control us through toxic shaming, throwing labels at us. So it comes down in realization, 'nothing human disgust me -unless it's unkind or violent', as Tennessee Williams said in Night of Iguana.
I think "good", nice people will have hard time with criticism and being ashamed by others, especially when we make mistake, when we do not know something or if we have shortcomings - that others pinpoint and mock us about. I discovered that I get intrusive thoughts later about it - and I can't shake it off when someone is rude to me, it returns as a warning that I might experience bad reactions in the future from the same or different person. I get stuck and feel ashamed for being in embarrassing situation. I realized this is toxic shame. So it is not about being or not being a good person - it is about being wrong by default, that I do not match up to unknown superior ideal of other people who are judging, evil and rude. That I am inept and I will never be good enough and that I am imposter, should be fired from any job because I make mistakes and I do not know how to do things, or I fail to do them perfectly immediately and instead I should live as homeless person, away from seemingly capable people who easily exploit and hurt other people without having guilt trips.
I see the solution to this toxic shame as a realization it is fake, it is a bubble, an entity that appears to me as if it is a part of me - but in reality it does not exists, it is a made up, it is an illusion, it is hallucination that appears solid and real.
Instead I should turn to my own self worth, my super ego - the real entity that is hidden inside me, that I replaced in my childhood with external referencing and external validation - causing me to be like a pea in a soup - moved around as in ocean, at the disposal and at whim of other people's emotions, orders and commands.
I see this concept as a solution to Chris McCandless dilemma and why he decided to run away from society. He could not resolve rules, obligations and shoulds imposed by toxic environment. And many people with social anxiety and avoidance choose to avoid people in order not to be hurt by them - while in the same time to be a good and nice person - so that they do not hurt others by the truth telling, exposing the elephant in the room and by living in accordance to our mechanism inside us that tells us what is natural for us.
I see what is your problem. I call it a leech is stuck on you. It is when you can't shake off the intrusive thoughts. You feel you can't stop and remove and ignore something that is bothering you, some incident or some people - usually from the past, something uncomfortable. I realized it is toxic shame. It is complex trauma within complex trauma. So even though we listen to advice about trauma, there is hidden complex mechanism inside that is creating its own complex trauma. Even though this sounds complicated - surprisingly it is incredibly easy when you know exactly what toxic shame actually is. (Believing to the core that we are wrong by default and we try hard that no one sees us exposed as distorted and twisted). Then - we need to realize that toxic shame is invented cloud, it is an illusion. It is not real. It is hallucination that we believe is true. It is fake appearing as real - we are not wrong. No one is wrong all the time. Instead of toxic shame, we got to work up our self worth - which means we turn our core worth to our Super Ego instead. This is all database of all knowledge we gathered in our lives - it is like internet archive inside our mind, and there are all resources about reality and objectivity and ideals and how life is suppose to be like, without judgements and biases and prejudgements. It is the core of our intuition and sixth sense too, some might call it God inside us - if they are religious. I am sci-fi fan, so I see it as artificial intelligence that become aware of itself. We connect to this entity, we learn it exists inside us, it is our self worth, that we never been taught in our childhood that is inside us, since we were raised by narcissists - who taught us that our self worth is based on external validation and external referencing.
15:00 "When you are tangled up at something as deep seated as trauma, it's really hard to let your conscious come forward, meeting safety and security, going away from something painful and hurtful. We build walls. We don't look at it oh this is opportunity, world is giving me on a silver platter to deal with so I can have growth. At the moment we think it is too painful. The more i shut down. Trauma is coming up too fast too intense, overpowering than we are comfortable with.
There are 3 things we have control over as human beings. Total sovereignty – our thoughts, our emotions and our actions. What you believe you have power in your body, when emotions are arising, what we do and saying, actions we are doing are all over our control even though it feels they are not. First things is awareness. Step one , always step one is becoming aware. Write sticky notes, write it on your phone, somewhere where you will notice. If we dont need to be there, put yourself in comfortable environment. Putting yourself on Internet reading stories, it reinforces feelings of helplessness and victim. Make a gratitude list. Break from what is happening in your environment and look around. If you are in dark room and i give you flashlight, you point - whatever you are shining that is your reality. Notice there is so much more, more choices, that feel safe. You mind goes – oh, there is more. To wake up and become aware. First comes calming nervous system. You become aware – that is the first step in solving something. This is not your fault,your nervous system is suppose to do this, this is why you are alive, why you are still here. Your nervous system values safety above else. It's going to take you away from anything that does not feel safe."
This means, your shutdown after the freeze stress response is your inner mechanism trying to protect you. It is trying to make you feel safe. That is the reason for shutdown - so what you can do is that you have to be objective - see if you are really safe? Is there danger present right now? Are there a real threats looming from somewhere? IT is most probably trauma flashbacks and triggers and our fears are not real objective reality that cause us to shutdown - so we must make an effort to convince ourselves that we are safe, so we can move on with our daily tasks.
OR.. perhaps there is a real danger. Perhaps there is some psycho that is verbally abusing you? Can you deal with that concrete threat? - by defending yourself and learning techniques how to deal with difficult people. Are difficult people really the same intensity as someone violent and criminally insane? Our anxiety lumps it together so that we react to mouse in the same way as to a lion. Our task is to convince ourselves of reality - that we are dealing with a mouse, and not with imagined dangerous animals - and act accordingly - ignore them, or talk with them, or cooperate with them.
23:00 "So just say, ok, mind I got it, you want me to feel safe. I will make decision to be safe, I will take control. If you say i am helpless, you are in victim mentality mode, you have not calmed down your nervous system. "
29:11 "Third thing is action. We do something. Choose something that reinforce fear, anger, frustration, grief, sadness, trauma and make it stronger or are we going to do something different, that doesn't feel safe, something that doesn't feel you are comfortable but breaks subconscious pattern of trauma, that brings you closer to what you want in life, shine flashlight on that. You can't sit in your room, you have to re-engage with the world. Go out for a walk. Sit down and write that book, project, job, anything you want to create in life. OR will you sit down and complain about all things that are impossible. Action is important. Action should be easy. Once you are ready to re-engage with reality, there is something going on in relationship, family, world that you don't like that reduced you to victimhood, self pity - now you stepped out, re-engage is a choice. Actions that you do, words that you speak, thoughts that you think, emotions that you feel are guiding you, informing your life where you will point your flashlight. You shine light where you want it to go"
Many people (and mentors) do not realize that anxiety is not thing to fight, it is a symptom of some trauma. It is the same as if people would treat radiation symptoms, instead of removing themselves from Chernobyl.
Let's start:
HE claims:
1) "Extremely agreeable people are compliant, they are not good at standing up to themselves, easy to pushed around. "
This is not personality. When someone is in extreme it is a sign this person is in pain, there is distortion going on underneath. We as humans are mostly ego-centric and we judge world at face value, very quickly we jump to conclusions and basically most people do not care for other people, they are unable to put themselves into other person's shoes - partly because they are taught by media especially in USA to win and to achieve and to pollute the planet, partly because of toxic masculinity where it is a sign of sissy when someone pays attention to emotions, paradoxically even for women.
So we are not talking here about face value - some person that is people pleaser. We are witnessing a person who went through severe trauma, Complex Trauma, it has PTSD triggers, flashbacks, it is a person who was criticized heavily, that was been told that everything is his/hers fault, literally everything, things that are out of human control to begin with. And Peterson, as being right-wing nut, cannot break out of his ego-centricism, and thus not only that he develops mental illness (because he is stuck with a brain of 12 year old kid that never grew up and now it is stuck in adult body) - he propagates and spreads his cognitive distortions to audience, sharing the same traits.
2) "They tend to be resentful. Just because you are nice it doesn't mean you are interested to deal. I do so much for other people and they do so little for me." "Maybe you should stop being so easy to get along with"
Not he no longer talks about people pleaser. This what he describes here are Borderliners. These type of people are "nice", "kind" but in the same time manipulative and they create drama, they hold grudge, resentments inside. The topic he is talking here are people who are extremely fawning - and these folks hold no resentment, since it was weed out by their dysfunctional parenting.
Therefore, the video is at 1:47 and he already based his totally wrong and distorted explanation and perception into totally wrong angle. He lumps together a psychopaths (victims who become victimizer) with a true victims - and he does this in order to evoke shame, more toxic shame - that he holds inside- in order to "push" people pleasers out of being pushover. Of course, this will not work, the result will be totally the opposite - psychopaths will learn to be more of psychopaths, while pushovers will learn to develop more self hate, depression and anxiety. This guy is dangerous. He is making more damage to people who are suffering and need the right and correct information, instead of misleading advice that is road to hell.
3) "If you are antagonist enough you end up in prison"
OR you become Trump, the president of strongest country in the world, thanks to fake advisers who spread fake information and glorify rudeness and unfriendliness.
4) "Human beings are predators. We have been through huge swash of our evolutionary history maybe for all of it, during that time our capacity for being predators been key to our survival"
Jesus Christ, this is a blunt lie. In the history of invention - people invented fashion first, and remembrance to the deceased. They did not invent weapon first. Also, it is confirmed study that nations that introduced TV much later than developed countries - had a huge spike in violence, as through times before TV coming into their homes. Violence is part of evil, it is external factor. People are introduced to the evil. Zambardo made studies, Stanford Prison experiment. Milgram Experiment showed us that people are like sheep - they do what they are told to do, they obey authority. So if authority is twisted and violent, they will be also. This is why people like Peterson are dangerous. As Charles Manson disclosed, "You can convince anybody of anything if you just push it at them all of the time. They may not believe it 100%, but they will still draw opinions from it, especially if they have no other information on which to draw their opinoions from"
So this delusion about people being predatory is brainwashing, from a person who is mentally ill.
Toxic shame being a belief that we are faulty and wrong by default - so we must cover this basic unworthiness by being perfectionists and we are never allowed to make mistake - and if we do - then our wound is exposed and everyone can witness us being bad to the core, by default, which is very painful - since it was programmed inside us by dysfunctional environment. We have super-ego inside us, we got to burst the hallucination that we created as kids in the form of toxic shame, and replace it with our super ego; the collection of all data, experience and sixth sense as our self worth, instead of toxic shame whos worth is found in external validation - other people comments, nagging, complaining and mocking, pinpointing our errors, shortcomings and lack of knowledge.
The second one, rejecting the positive is what I call being ungrateful. It is like when a person suffers from anxiety - and they face their fears successfully and without flows - but they reject it as a fluke, and move on to another worry and anticipation of the worst case scenario that may play out. This ungratefulness is hidden factor in staying stuck in a rut and it is good to expose it and replace it with gratefulness for objective good things and job well done.
Yeah, that is ego-centrism. I learned about this concept last year and it blew my mind. It is supposedly the last stage of growin up, and kids learn it by the age of 12. At least this is what Piaget and Vygotski disovered.
People with trauma, anxiety and dysfunctional childhoods miss this lesson, and their empathy is taking place of overcoming ego-centrism. And not realizing this concept it a part of distortion that hinders relationships in adult years later on. IT is important concept to learn.
"Peterson - example of centrist"
About him and actually his name brought me to this video - I found out at his social anxiety videos that he is a quack. He has no idea about the topic yet he talks from the stance of the ultimate expert. The problem is that a part of social anxiety is external referencing, and people like him are literally keeping people sick and in loop, chasing other people's approval and fitting in. There are no truth, as Socrates discovered in Ancient Greece, it is the basis of modern philosophy, and without accepting this paradox, people tend to be ego-centric in adult lives, and it causes a lot of mental damage due to biases and logical fallacies that spring from people drawing quick conclusions to complex matters. And this is what Peterson is doing - instead of realizing this concept, he jumps on band-wagon of stubbornness, rigidity, one-mindness, dictatorship mentality, herd mentality, groupthink - he puts himself in a position where his every statement is suppose to be ultimate truth and we should accept it without questioning it. Mental illness is having a rigid mind and not allowing alternative viewpoints inside; which is definition of ego-centrism.
In the same time, since I am aware of ego-centrism trap, I do not think he should be banned - I encourage Voltaire's publicist who said that Voltaire may not agree with his critics, but he will do everything in his power to defend other people right to express themselves. One exclusion to this rule would be extremists who oppose freedom and free speech.
Yeah, I agree what you said - that the problem is our control, how we express our opinion. For example, people who have issues with codependency tend to control other people through cognitive distortions, and people pleasers have urge to fix people - and then there are people who believe in their version of goodness and go into Crusades against what they define as opposition. I think the solution is in our level of resentment and antagonism inside. If our opinion, criticism and need to control comes from toxic shame - than the urge is toxic. The healthy mindset would be to alarm and alert person who irritate us - without hanging on to it, like a needle on a record getting stuck. IT comes down to voice out our opinion, talk it out, without self-censorship and without irritation, it is simply about stating the elephant in the room.
I noticed that the distortion is when people are ignoring the elephant in the room, and speaking it up is sometimes a revolutionary act, it takes courage, while keeping silent and ignoring the evil allows it to flourish.
A also notices that there is something that I call External factor - people who are psychopaths, manipulators, narcissists and parasites, exploiters - and they are basically afraid of transparency, truth and speaking out the elephant in the room. So sometimes, if we keep silent, it is enabling the evil in the world.
I learned this concept very late, and I learned it when I discovered PureOCD techniques to battle intrusive thoughts and ruminations. Mark Freeman has excellent videos about this from 2015 - and he says that instead of fighting with our thoughts that we can't stop thinking about, that we allow thought to come up and allow it to be in our mind, but without picking and scratching it - in order to get rid of relentless intrusive thoughts.
The technical psychological term for this is cognitive fusion and cognitive defusion. As Mark Freeman said in his video "You don't have to chase every stick your brain throws at you."
And while I am here,
if someone has an issue with intrusive thoughts (anxiety, depression, fears that you can't shake off etc) listen to this:
- I also learned that intrusive thought feels like a leech that is stuck on you and you can't get rid of it... well, I learned that this is toxic shame. It is a ball of yarn, a balloon of all trauma from external world, coupled with our own negative reactions to it that transmit a huge massive waves of guilt, that it is all our fault, whatever happened and whatever might happen - and in the same time that we suck as a person, that we are by default wrong and dysfunctional. So to deal with this collection of shame, as we have been thought through Complex Trauma lessons from our dysfunctional childhoods, as frightened kids - we develop external referencing - where we do not turn into our self worth to trust our gut, experience, and mistakes- instead we turn our guidance into other people, while in the same time we have this entity inside us as toxic shame that distorts our reality, and we actually hallucinate our daily lives - everything we come in contact with through our senses through a prism of constant negativity.
The solution is rather simple - this toxic shame entity is fake, it is an illusion, it can burst like a bubble - there is no need for complicated psychological surgery. Just stop believing in it - it does not exist.
Instead what exists, and what we should turn our attention is our super-ego - it is real entity, a conglomerate of everything that we read, learned, experienced, including the sixth sense, intuition and gut, all the knowledge that we sucked inside, all the good memories, our worth - and when we trust ourselves, we can accept our mistakes, we can lean on ourselves, instead of seeking others to guide us and approve us.
Yeah, the problem is this "interest" part. It is distorted through toxic shame prism. It comes out as our interest to be cognitive distortions and external referencing. We do not trust that we have ability to bring rational and good decisions and we put this in other people hands, especially people who appear loud, obnoxious and aggressive - as we learned these kind of behaviour that we were subjugated in childhood as norm, a standard of what is survival, the life, instead of love - we got that and we think it is love.
Placing own self worth back to ourselves have a major shift and consequences - it means conflict and confrontations and breaking up contacts, also it means it will have the effect the same as being woken up from a nightmare and you start a new day - where the bad stuff are in the past now, and they are all illusion, hallucination - that have a power only if you believe in it, focus on it, make choices and make decisions based on that nightmare. Instead we step into reality - which is different. That is the effect of stepping out of codependency.
Being sensitive is normal reaction to abnormal people and abnormal situations and abnormal events.
With that being said there are some variations - some people exploit own sensitivity in order to control others - to manipulate them. These people are Borderliners. The difference from "normal" people who are sensitive - these ones exhibit cruelty to others and engage in frequent drama and conflict. Sensitive people avoid conflict, since they know what anxiety feels like and they have empathy enough to not let it spread and not allow other people to feel it.
Also, manipulators - narcissists, exploiters, users, abusers, parasites - have small amygdala, they have brain injury, they are abnormal - they do not feel emotions, they do not feel hurt - they are robots. So some of them found out that they can control other people through temper tantrums. And - this knowledge gives them opportunity to manipulate other people by exhibiting "sensitivity" - and this is why serial killers pretend to be injured to get to their victims- or they appear in wheelchair when in court to draw sympathy from the jury and public, once they are caught and cornered.
These two examples are the reason why "sensitivity" is a bad thing - because it is being used by bad people to hurt others.
Unfortunately due to these low percentage numbers of sociopaths, the general population is being told that their sensitivity is wrong. Also, sociopaths cross other people boundaries when the target is being told that their sensitivity is flaw - that you should shut up and obey, and if you say something - you are labeled as weak. This sensitivity shame is exploitation, this is manipulation. It turns into toxic shame - and toxic shame is a one step away from mental instability and mental illness.
Healthy people express themselves - if you are a good and nice person, if you do not want to hurt other people, if you do not have plans and schemes to exploit someone and cause them any damage, if you are not sick and your source of fun is not hurting other people - you have any right to be whatever you want.
And last thing, if a person has allergy to hurt, if small things trigger you - this is PTSD - flashbacks that trigger you - this is Complex Trauma. This means, we were being exposed to some hurt and painful event in our childhoods when our personality was being molded and we did not have enough information about the world, we were exposed to toxic shaming instead of love - this is then turned into hypnosis today, as adults. So being over-reactive, being over-sensitive is not a part of personality, a part of someone's character - it is a psychological injury - and shaming it will not help go away. Tucking it in and pretending it doesn't exist is suppression - it is immature ego defense mechanism. The solution is to get knowledge about Complex Trauma and learn to snap out of hypnosis - of being triggered by certain words, people, events, situations. IT is not our fault - we were victims of being controlled by mentally ill people in our young, critical age. Shaming our reactions will not help. It is about realization that being over-reactive to other people is that we put power in their hands, this is called External referencing, seeking external validation, instead of having trust in own capabilities, own opinions and own worth. Toxic shame is causing us to believe in illusions - fear of what other people think, their criticism, their nagging, nit-picking - it is all delusion that appear real to us, due to toxic shame and early programming.
This toxic shame can be broken easily - you just have to discover how it manifest in you, so that you can recognize it, it is the cause of mental illness and mental instabilities, because it is based on unknown, imaginary world that we were hypnotized to believe and take it as real world.
Therefore, Official health industry and mentors are ignoring 2 elements that are creating mental illness and mental instability: 1) the toxic environment around the target and 2) toxic shame - internalized hallucination about the world around the individual, where CBT not explains that the target must fawn onto the society, that the individual must become people pleaser and pushover in order to function with society. That is the invisible and detrimental outcome of CBT.
CBT should be 1% of the treatment - something like storytelling, that the individual has the general knowledge about - instead - when it is pushed as the main or prevalent strategy to combat mental instabilities - it becomes toxic - because it does not address the source of problem.
This is the same as if we decide to treat the symptoms of a person exposed to radiation, while in the same time we do nothing to move this person away from the exposing core of Chernobyl. Staying in the toxic vicinity, without learning at least how to shield itself from the incoming invisible danger - is how CBT effects the individual in the long term, it creates more trauma, damage and flashbacks and totally new triggers.. added to the past original ones.
For anyone who struggles with CBT and still have anxiety, check out these crucial and hidden psychological concepts that official medical sources and mentors are keeping away from your eyes and thus keeping you sick:
External referencing, external validation, trauma bonding, introjection, amygdala hijack, Complex Trauma, Toxic shame, narcissistic injury and manipulators, how to recognize borderliners (drama queens and fake victims, whiners that appear friendly and warm on the surface), immature ego defense mechanism, PureOCD, biases, cognitive distortions, logical fallacies, ego-centrism, self worth, intrinsical values, Polyvagal theory, Emotional contagion, thinking errors, thinking traps, salvation fantasy, cognitive defusion, inferiority complex, narcissistic abuse, emotional hijacking, fawning, emotional dysregulation, perfectionism and super-ego/ego/id, self-censorship.
Toxic shame is the cause of mental disorder - it is a false belief that appear real inside our thinking process, it was programmed inside us through dysfunctional environment when we were kids - being exposed to relentless criticism, nagging, nit-picking, blaming, scapegoating. We developed belief that we are not worthy, that something is wrong with us by default - and this belief is creating all mental disorder - because we think it is real - it is not. IT is hallucination. Since we had toxic shame - we never found out that we can trust ourselves and have self worth - so we developed external validation - seeking approval from others, especially loud, obnoxious and aggressive people. This is why other people criticism is so painful for us, because we see others as superior and our worth is in their hands, opinions, comments and emotions. Instead of toxic shame - we already have inside the mechanism that we can turn to, our own self worth - and it is called Super-ego: it is a collection of all our knowledge, information, etiquette, experience, intuition and sixth sense - and this means we can listen to it, it is inside us. Once we trust our guts and choices we can allow ourselves to make mistakes - and we no longer will be stuck like a needle on a record, waiting for other people to approve and validate us, we can allow ourselves to be original, honest and authentic.
I would also replace fighting with fitting. And this is the fight all about - it is about fitting in to our presumed role and expectations by our surroundings, we don't want to be different, including displaying our mistakes. And this fear of mistakes - and others observing them and criticizing them - is creating anxiety and OCD. We try to fit in. We abolish our personality, perks, weirdness, strange and different things that we do, think and we try to avoid ourselves to be seen - because of relentless toxic shame.
"to accept these things"
Yeah, and this part of accepting is the core of problem.
We can't accept something and this is creating OCD and anxiety. Our shoulds, explanations perceptions and obligations are tainted and filtered through toxic shame. And toxic shame is illusive and we can't form it, describe it - because it is hallucination. And since toxic shame replaced out self worth - we seek self worth in external validation - which makes us to fit in
so I would like to comment why it doesn't work,
perhaps someone will help this information, for people who are still stuck with intrusive thoughts and simply can't get unstuck, it is like a stuck needle in a record;
"to look at our thoughts as if we are looking at magazine"
Yeah, this will work for intrusive thoughts per se. It will work for random OCD thoughts.
It will not work for thoughts that came into our mind through the prism and filter of toxic shame.
Even moreso, I would divide intrusive thoughts that spring from toxic shame as PureOCD.
There is no clinical OCD obsession and compulsion, there is only a simulation of OCD that appears as real OCD intrusive thought.
Toxic shame is like a gremlin that keeps on raveling the thread of yarn in the background, the same yarn that you unravel in your consciousness. That is why it stay stuck like a leech and we can't shake it off.
Solution is quite simple: we got to realize that it is toxic shame, and that toxic shame is hallucination. It is a ball of yarn of dysfunctional messages from our childhood coupled with toxic people we got into contact with, soaking up their drama, criticism, nagging and nit-picking, blaming, ashaming and scapegoating. And since in our childhood no one taught us how to deal with adult problems like mental illness that is spread from a person near to us - our child brain interpreted toxic shame as reality. And now as adults we filter our shoulds, obligations, expectations and perceptions, biases and prejudices, logical fallacies - through the prism of toxic shame - and this is creating mental instability. We got to realize that instead of toxic shame, that drives us to external validation and seeking approval from outside people - that we have our own self worth inside, in a form of hidden super-ego.
No one explained us this as kids, nor as adults - that we seek intrinsical values instead of external ones. Neither no one told us that we have toxic shame. It seems normal that we feel guilty and embarrassed for anything that goes wrong, for any mistake and that we must be perfect in order to be accepted by others - and with toxic shame, we can never get acceptance from ourselves, so we do not trust our own judgement, experience and knowledge - we seek others for guidance. Toxic shame is hallucination and it is producing intrusive thoughts and anxiety. We can easily destroy it - it is like a Wizard of OZ that we come for advice, and we think it is a real wizard that can help us - but all it does is manipulate us for becoming a slave to it, and it is fake in reality.
We don't have to go very far for guidance, it is only a heart beat away.
3 months ago
As children our parents were too strict - now we learned that other people might judge us and we see any social settings outside comfort zone as vacuum - and we cling on other people for their approval or disapproval as a way to find ourselves grounded in them.
We were never learned as kids to trust ourselves, our own worth - because our caretakers and environment programmed us to seek others as our reference point. The opposite from this is narcissism.
The healthier solution is in the middle. Yin-yang. Give and take.
If we have something to throw in garbage - this is our right and something that is ok, we do not need approval for this, and any mocking is unjustified. But with social anxiety we see others as valid, superior and our caretakers, so we do nothing and wait for others to save us. Break the trauma bonding by trusting your instinct, own experience and our common sense.
2 hours ago
I love you and can't thank you enough for writing this comment
Yeah, you are totally right, and as Julien said - it is triggered by trauma.
But social anxiety is battle on many fronts. You fix leak in one place, another one springs up.
Lack of independence is result of external referencing and trauma bonding, two concepts that we need to expose and learn, and they mean that we see other people as superior and we automatically take their words as orders, commands - and all this is happening when amygdala is hijacked by any uncomfortable social situation - our lizard brain is in charge, but we do not know it, we think it is regular brain. This means, people will forget your truth, they will forget to accept their independence in any scary social setting. So the natural solution that we learned as kid is to turn to other people for guidance - because other people do not seem anxious, panic - they seem strong, competent, especially those who are rude, obnoxious, vulgar and aggressive. This is what makes social anxiety repetitive and sets us up to be people pleasers and easy targets for bullies.
Following others mean being quiet, shutting up and self-censorship, avoiding conflict and confrontation when someone crossed their boundaries.
So this logically is leading to the next point - that we can't trust our brain, which means we can't rely on our independence since our brain is producing cognitive distortions which results in panic, and other people produce "normal" social life - which we want.
So how to become independent - which is solution to social anxiety?
I see the real solution in addressing toxic shame, which is a bastard child of being raped with Complex Trauma in our childhood. We were raised in toxic environment, so our self worth is pruned by psychopaths in our midst.
I see realization that toxic shame is hallucination, it is illusion that we were hypnotized into by shaming, as a way to control us.
And instead of toxic shame, our self worth, our independence is hidden in our Super-Ego, which is conglomeration of all knowledge, information, morals and ethics that we believe in.
Independence means speaking up - not shutting up when someone accuse us of something.
----
"Daoists therefore practice wu-wei, or "non-interference": rather than acting against, person should follow the natural flow. Daoism. Robert Arp "1001 ideas".
Brain is defending against discomfort by defense mechanism, and in our trauma childhood we developed immature ego defense mechanisms - one of them being is suppression, because we were ashamed by expressing our natural emotions and reactions.
So yeah, instead of trying to hide up, the better solution is to go with the flow.
This means speaking up and when someone is accusing us of something unfair. Instead of self-censorship, speak out naturally what is in our mind. People with social anxiety are usually quiet and silent - and due to " the Dunning-Kruger effect is a type of cognitive bias that causes people to overestimate their knowledge or ability, particularly in areas with which they have little to no experience" - tells us that people who are more intelligent, people who look at life and situations and people at many different levels - tend to stay quiet, and are usually being silenced by stupid people who are very loud, sarcastic, through mocking and bullying others.
In our childhood due to toxic shame, we were made to believe we are dumb and inferior, and others are superior - as adults this trauma programming from Complex Trauma turned into social anxiety. The solution is obvious - observe toxic shame as hallucination, as hypnosis imposed by dysfunctional environment, and express our Super Ego naturally, voice out our knowledge, information, opinion, etiquette, moral and ethical standards, which by far are not at all inferior, but rather superior.
I think people with social anxiety are like ashamed and attacked teachers and educators in 1960s China during Cultural Revolution. :D
We should accept our role and express naturally what is hidden inside us, our intellect.
---
"Daoists therefore practice wu wei or "non-interference"; rather than acting against, person should follow the natural flow. Person should follow the natural flow of events and turn them to their own advantage (like surfer moving in harmony with a wave). Politically, a good ruler should educate the people so that harsh laws are unnecessary.
Ju (suppleness, gentleness) refers to the ability to adapt dynamically to pressure so as to overcome it. The more flexible bamboo survive by bending under the pressure and then springing back".
Daoism/Ju
Laozi
c. 550 BCE
1001 Ideas that changed the way we think, Robert Arp
I would just add - that we accept that toxic shame is hallucination, illusion, it is not real.
Instead of toxic shame, we can turn our self worth inside to Freud's Super Ego (our knowledge, information, etiquette, morals, ethics, intuition, sixth sense) for advice, decisions, mistakes included - mistakes as a way to learn, not to ashame.
This excessive self observance is the result of childhood trauma, we were raised in strict dysfunctional environment (Complex Trauma), where we were ashamed and blamed about our natural and normal mistakes -and now as adults we are hypervigilant not to make a mistake by monitoring what I say what I do.
The problem is not us - it is narcissist and mentally ill person that molded us into anxiety of relentless toxic shame (ie being wrong by default). Toxic shame is hallucination, a hypnosis, a programming - that is the problem, not the act of monitoring ourselves. The self monitoring will go away once we accept our self worth (Freud's super-ego) - trusting we are ok even with mistakes and relying on our independence and freedom to talk and make our own choices based on our knowledge, not external validation.
"Make conversation less about yourself. What is their priorities, care about person across.
Ask questions about other person. Ask more questions."
Yeah, this is ok advice, but in real life,
I am afraid this might have some by-products of additional anxiety. It is because people will interpret these questions as interrogation and crossing their boundaries, their privacy, they will find it to be intrusive. It is not our fault, we do not wish ill-will, we want to be social, but bad experience with manipulators and narcissists and aggressive mentally ill people cause the social anxiety. Again, it is not our fault.
"Not knowing what to say, ask great questions"
This is also ok advice, but it also has by-product of more anxiety - because we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to come up with greatness, we put unreasonable amount of pressure to appear super-confident - which backfires - since confidence is a paradox. The more we accept we are "dumb", "boring", "stupid", "not-great" - the more confident we will feel and we won't give a damn what other person thinks about us anyways. :D
Unfortunately due to dysfunctional programming that resulted in social anxiety as adults, our brain is wired to be emotionally hijacked by amygdala whenever we see triggers, flashbacks and situations that are similar to original trauma. For me, it is a group of kid laughing, mocking and cursing me, walking away from me - and now I expect the attack from social group settings. That is, my amygdala expects this. Amygdala is basic, lizard part of brain and it takes over the control over our cortex (this is our "normal", everday working thinking brain, this is when we are without fears and stress). Unfortunately we are not aware of this hijacking - and we think we are in "normal" mode - and because of this we trust our thoughts as if they are reality, without realizing they are hallucinations - intrusive thoughts, fears, cognitive distortions (magnifying the danger). When we are aware of this The Polyvagal Theory - we can calm ourselves down, because we no longer will give control to amygdala to run the show. We can take over the control of the plane inside our mind - or at least stop the automatic responses. So what would be the solution, how should we act;
I would go with wu-wei;
"Wu Wei is letting things take their natural course with minimal intervention. It does not mean total inaction; rather it is a way of maximizing efficiency by minimizing interference. To harmonize actions with the workings of the natural world"
c. 550 BCE
Laozi
1001 Ideas by Robert Arp
It is about accepting our non-comfortableness and weirdness, our caprices and our shaking trembling voice - and just take action whenever possible - action being our dreams, goals, aspirations and needs:
"Positive feelings come from being honest about yourself and accepting your personality, and physical characteristics, warts and all; and, from belonging to a family that accepts you without question."
- Willard Scott
This is called external referencing and external validation.
Due to toxic shame, we do not trust our own independence, our self worth, we don't rely on our knowledge, our instincts, sixth sense, intuition - and we want others instead to guide us or to acknowledge us and tell us that we are worthy. This leads to fawning, seeking approval, people pleasing, avoiding conflict, confrontation, self-censorship and mutism (inability to speak).
We have everything we need inside us but it is obfuscated by toxic shame. Other people are there for interdependence, not to be codependent on them. We can't put burden on others to complain, nag - it will wear them down, they will feel drained. It is time to rely on ourselves and become talkers to ourselves first. If we depend on other people for approval, this means that we put control into their hands, they can manipulate us and our happiness depends on other person emotions, anger, their mental instabilities.Toxic shame is hallucination, it is externally implanted belief that we are not good enough and that we must seek others to feel good about ourselves. This is hypnosis, programming imposed by toxic environment when we were kids. Instead of toxic shame, we have inside a natural entity, a mechanism that will guide us - Freud called it super-ego. Our experience, our knowledge, our ethics, morals, etiquette, common sense, friendliness, openness, agreeableness, sense of boundaries, being honest and authentic, speaking out the truth - even though it may be interpreted in wrong way, it is about accepting our mistakes and everything we don't like about ourselves that we can't change.
Yeah, it is not only family, it is environment, surroundings, siblings too. People who are too nervous, vulgar, violent when you say no to them. From my experience - it is extreme nervousness, people who are rude, jumpy, overly react in aggressive and almost violent manner, yeah - this is where I got people pleasing habitual behaviour and toxic shame, believing I am wrong by default, and it is my job to serve others and looking that I do not make them upset - or they throw temper tantrum and hysteria.
I learned about authenticity and being honest from Zoroastrianism last summer, so I even was not exposed to information in clear and concise manner - other than this ancient religion - of the importance to be honest and to speak the truth.
This Peterson has no clue about social anxiety, and unfortunately his useless advice is making more damage - because they stray away the targets off the road.
If you follow him on Twitter, you can see how many random people - notice the truth - that he is full of biases, prejudices and logical fallacies. He should not be trusted and take everything he says with a grain of salt - he is mentally unstable and heals his complexes by pontificating others.
The truth is - person who is anxious pays attention. It is because of Complex trauma experience - people carry with themselves PTSD symptoms and they make the individual hypervigilant to danger - other people. So it comes down to calming yourself down, by realizing to be objective - to see if there is real danger out there, instead of having automated responses learned from dysfunctional childhood.
So - his advice to pay attention and to focus on other person only increases social anxiety - because he is giving advice to deepen social anxiety by already present external validation, exteranal referencing - his advice will not make us feel less socially anxious - his faulty advice is saying that we are worthless, that we do not trust ourselves (toxic shame) - and that we must look onto others for guidance -
this creates people pleasing behavior as side-effect. It is fawning. And introjection - we intune our emotions with the other person - so what is other person is angry, unhappy, manipulative, exploiter, abuser, parasite, emotional vampire - we will allow this person to control us and abuse us and exploit us. That is what his unhelpful and unhealthy advice is doing to socially anxious people.
The real advice would be - to be honest, authentic, to be yourself, without pretending and without having complexes and orders and commands who should I watch or not. Social settings should be spontaneous and intuitive, it is not step-by-step order of instruction how to walk, talk or feel, it is not rigid. Mental illness is being rigid and trusting in a hallucination. Real life demands us to be diverse, to adjust and to make mistakes, to appear stupid and dumb sometimes.
The healthier advice is no brain surgery and it was invented a long time ago:
"Daoists therefore practice wu wei or "non-interference"; rather than acting against, person should follow the natural flow. Person should follow the natural flow of events and turn them to their own advantage (like surfer moving in harmony with a wave). Politically, a good ruler should educate the people so that harsh laws are unnecessary.
Ju (suppleness, gentleness) refers to the ability to adapt dynamically to pressure so as to overcome it. The more flexible bamboo survive by bending under the pressure and then springing back.
Wu Wei is letting things take their natural course with minimal intervention. It does not mean total inaction; rather it is a way of maximizing efficiency by minimizing interference. To harmonize actions with the workings of the natural world".
Daoism/Ju
Laozi
c. 550 BCE
1001 Ideas that changed the way we think, Robert Arp
"Positive feelings come from being honest about yourself and accepting your personality, and physical characteristics, warts and all; and, from belonging to a family that accepts you without question."
- Willard Scott
Truth is uncomfortable and painful - but it is painful only to people who are hiding something that they want to hide, people who are manipulators and people who exploit others, or abuse others just for fun and drama.
Your pain is litmus test, The Voight-Kampff test that exposes people who are replicators: psychopats, narcissists, exploiters, parasites, borderliners, abusers, users, emotional vampires.
We can choose to see toxic shame as hallucination, and handle it from the inside, but I would take into consideration also the external factor - people who are hypnotizing us with lies and ashaming, as a way to control us.
And this is where is gets complex.
Why would I need to remind myself that I am enough - it is because of observation, how others see and judge and criticize us. It comes down how are we perceived in society, because other people's opinion matters. Therefore I would focus also on this need for external validation and external referencing.
Then it comes down to be amazing and do my very best just for myself, not for other people. Not as a way to prove myself to be worthy to someone else.
And then we come to deeper reason why we do not feel good enough in the first place - it is someone in our childhood who was constantly criticizing, nagging and blaming us, not allowing ourselves to express our needs, it is Complex Trauma programming that created toxic shame. Is this person or someone who taken their place still have power of controlling us through shame even today? I would also address this issue, too.
First of all, how do you define "nice"?
And the usage of "everybody" sounds like cognitive distortion. Google: 'overgeneralization' to find out more.
I will take a wild guess and assume that you assume that what you define as 'being nice' is being quiet and shutting up and not alarming the other person when they cross their boundaries. It is being silent and quiet when someone makes wild and unfair accusations - and we try to be nice, not to rock the boat or make a scene by keeping silent and approving their accusations by silence.
This is not "nice".
This is psychological problem. This is actually people pleasing, fawning, external referencing, external validation, introjection, trauma bonding, Stockholom Syndrome, codependency. This can't be healed and resolved by doing the opposite - by "not being nice".
When you are "not being nice" you are simply hysterical and turning to fight response - which solves nothing and adds up to more trouble, conflict and hysteria.
What helps is realization that people who are "nice" do this fawning on auto-pilot and this is the result of dysfunctional programming in childhood and Complex trauma. It is not their fault. It is not a matter of choice. It is not planned. It is running on a program, hypnosis instilled and ingrained by aggressive mentally ill person when this person was growing up. As child such person was exposed to adult situations that child brain cannot handle - toxic shame. And the only way to survive the abuse was through absorbing the messages from narcissists - that you must serve and obey anyone - or become abuser yourself as alternative. There was no middle ground.
Labeling others as "too nice" is doing further abuse, making more damage - it is adding up more toxic shame to already present evil - past trauma.
The solution is in realization that our own worth was obstructed by toxic shame and directed into external referencing - seeing other people as our guide. Own worth means believing in your own perception, opinion, experience, knowledge and owning your own mistakes in the process. The solution is defining toxic shame, and realization it is implemented rules and obligations that are hallucination - and replacing it with our natural mechanism of right and wrong, Freud's Super-ego.
With breaking up the hypnosis of trauma bonding, we realize there is external factor - psychopaths who parasite over accepted social norms, etiquette. These people rape other people kindness. These people are as said in video - they need to be institutionalized, they are sick.
With that being said - such people are statistically very low to be encountered.
In real life, we will meet people who are schlemiels - as Abraham Maslow Quote: “People are not evil; they are schlemiels.”
If they are being told the truth, honesty and authentically - they will realize they crossed their boundaries.
This is where it gets complex - people are not perfect. We can't expect people to be angels and to be without mistakes - they have their own issues. So this means we cannot confront and preaching our truth to others - we will turn into Karen. Since we have issues of our own, how can we expect others to be perfect?
I would restrain the teaching, and communication of right and wrong to be reserved for situations when someone tries to criticize us unfairly and accuse us of something that is false, wrong and not true.
Fawning has it's good and respectable side - it is about diplomacy, keeping friendships, resolving conflict and ending up feuds that were probably started on prejudices, biases, logical fallacies and misunderstandings in the first place, the lack of communication.
If we are a good, nice person - if we do not wish ill-will to others, if we do not make scheme to hurt someone and rob them or do anything painful to others - there is no reason to self-censor ourselves - we can speak the truth, our opinion, our side, our angle, our defense. So I would use our "niceness" as a weapon and energy to speak out the truth, instead of ashaming it and stifling it down.
Narcissists, exploiters, users, parasites, emotional vampires, psychopaths, manipulators hate the transparency, the truth, objectivity and honesty, authenticity - and this is our weapon. The only problem here are them shutting us up - the problem is not in ourselves being nice. The problem is coming from external factor - and us being programmed to external referencing - seeking others as guides and judges what is accepted and how we should act, think, feel and be.
I think this is a wrong approach. It is too Hollywood. It seems to me that we can become aware if it was determined - by looking within. Are the decision that I make based on what I think other people will approve... OR is it because it was my own decision, natural to me, something that reflects my interest.
And it would be the best proof when it is decision that is not popular with the crowds.
And this is connected to self confidence - which is paradox - I will never be confident if I must prove and compensate my shortcomings, the confidence will be when I accept my errors, stupidity, dumb choices...and weird unaccepted decisions that are not approved by someone external - such as having a villa or great car or serving toxic masculinity - that I must be fantasy action hero otherwise I am not "normal" or ideal man.
So I think free will is when we accept our errors, shortcomings, blunders, but also our caprices, eccentrics, the different way how we think, how we speak, being non standard, mimic or copy of general society. It's about no longer being controlled by toxic shame. I am not talking about being unkind or violent - there are some common boundaries, common sense instructions. But everything else - if we are not unkind or violent should be our free will, not someone else's instructions, criticism and external guidelines.
Are your desires influenced by introjection (soaking up other people criticism, viewpoints, their desires, their instructions)? Or you base your desires on your Super-ego, the collection of information, knowledge, upbringing, intuition and intrinsic values.
This leads to the natural conclusion that leading psychologists are saying: people are built for interdependence. It is about negotiating and finding the best solution - for example your desire may have side-effect to pollute the environment; what kind of person are you? Do you care for clean air and clean environment? Or are you narcissistic, ego-centric and think only for pleasuring your own desires?
If your desires are aggressive and unhealthy - you will be institutionalized by society, because you are harming yourself and others. You will be forced to give up your free will to cause damage by following your detrimental desires. In the past, we witnessed that rulers who engaged into aggressive desires caused people to revolt against the tyranny. This tells us that there are some universal laws that we must shape and mold our desires.
Let's examine less extreme example:
If you are stubborn person and annoying - you will be left alone, society will avoid you, you will be as if in a prison - isolated. So yeah, external determinants will be determine your desires. How will you get a job if your are high conflict person, prone to temper tantrums and anti-social behaviour? If you do not conform to common sense rules of society, your free will and your desires to cause pain and suffering are detrimental to you and to society.
I think Schopenhauer tried to explain that with his quote
"We can do what be will, but we can't will what we will"
He did not said that your desires are governed by external determinants, he said that your will, your desire will be shaped by natural laws, common sense and ability to socialize and have functional life. This means, if you are free to have free will, following your desires as long as you abide to common sense. External determinants are not there to shape and guide your desires, but to give you information and let you choose which external determinants you will choose, based on your personality, needs and mentality.
I realized that people who struggle with people pleasing and fawning lack the information about paradox of knowledge - that there is no truth and no one can have monopoly on the truth. We were taught in our childhood not to believe in our worth, our way, our personality, our individuality - and we were ashamed if we expressed ourselves. Now as adults, we believe that other people are better, smarter, that they know the truth and how things should be done and we abolish our opinion as invalid and fawn to any external opinion as order, command and ultimate truth - while in reality there is no truth. The paradox of knowledge can be stopped by making mistakes, by turning up wrong, by being stupid and dumb - and this is something that we were ashamed into believing is the worst thing possible - to not be perfect, so we turn to others for guidance and that they tell us what is the truth, and if there are some errors and wrong judgements- that they take the blame, which is usually minimized and ignored - since we do not object.
If we made that same error, other's criticism would be relentless - and we would join to witch hunt, because we are not aware that there is no truth.
If we make a decision - we got to trust that any decision of our own is made by our super-ego, the collection of knowledge, gathered information, etiquette and our common sense, sense of right and wrong, intuition and sixth sense- if we give up on that and put this power of making decisions into other people hands, we are subject to Milgram experiment, other people can control us and we can even do evil just to conform to authority.
Thanks to Complex Trauma information I also learned about external referencing and external validation - which means I do not trust my knowledge, my gathered information, intuition, my mistakes, shortcomings and lack of knowledge - but instead I was programmed to follow blindly other people - their instructions and see others as superior. And of course - if they are angry, I tune into their emotions and try to fix them, so that they do not throw temper tantrum - and if they did - that I am automatically to blame and I must self-censor myself and shut up, instead of alarming and alerting them.
Knowing all this hidden process behind intrusive thoughts helped me, maybe someone will benefit, too.
I call this antagonism. And I've noticed it is part of CPTSD and mental instabilities in general. It is because people with anxiety attract manipulators, abusers and exploiters who gaslight us - and we become aware of it only afterwards. We are gaslighted into saying yes and we feel anger for being tricked by those people - who would come in any shape of form anyway since we broadcast to attract them with our fears and inability to self worth and our wrong learned pattern of external referencing and trauma bonding.
So we feel anger, and we fight - inside our head, with our thoughts - and we should confront those people straight up, being honest and authentic, without self-censorship. It is about cutting contact if possible, not about giving them any extra time than needed (due to job, service, help). Antagonism is natural reaction to getting hurt - and with external referencing we see others engage in rumination and nagging and complaining so we copy it, too. It is toxic, it makes us stuck in amygdala part of brain. It should be refrained from because resentment is toxic. That's how I see it.
And it never will because the problem is paradox.
We solve paradox only by putting a limitation to it - at the cost of being wrong.
Our unwillingness to be wrong, our hesitancy to believe in God puts us in observation mode - and thus we freeze the momentum by our endless observation and reluctance to make solid decision.
I believe this realization is what Berkley tried to convey, and I also believe that this is the reason why we are here on Earth - so that we are tested - we are tested to see if we will figure out why we are here, and we are tested to see what choices we will make and what road we'll take and how we will react to events - are we good person who believe in idealism, or are we a bad person who will rationalize evil and blame others for anything gone wrong.
I also trust - this is what awaits us when we die - we will be thrown into vacuum - and only through our imagination, our decision we will be able to create solid world - our heaven. OR if we are evil - we will stay in vacuum, darkness, solipsism, believing that this ambiguity, empty space and solitude is the best and only reality. Evil person will thus condemn itself to a prison of its own making and will gladly habitue it for eternity. Something like Superman 2 when evil guys are stuck in a mirror, floating endlessly through space.
Therefore,
"still doesn't address the problem" proves the existence of God. People are humans, they are not God, people can't comprehend and understand God. Infinity is the proof of God.
And the only way out of paradox and infinity for human beings is idealism.
But since we are dealing with paradox, this also gives atheists a "way" out that they can be correct, too.
That's is the point. We have to invent God to create solid ground - even if this solid ground is illusion and may not exist in true reality. It is a loop, infinity that cannot be resolved by us.
This means - even if we oppose the atheists -we are wrong. By acknowledging the atheists and even "approving" their arguments as valid, paradoxically we are proving God. The existence of atheist is necessary, without them we would have empty vacuum - and as I said - empty vacuum is hell. Dualism is ying-yang, there must exist evil, the opposite, the argument, otherwise, the system would fall apart.
IT would be the same as if we were not able to move and walk- if food was supplied to us by tube and we spend our life lying in the bed. This way we would not harm and hurt anyone - but in the same time we would not discover through experience the outer reality - we would be confined only to our own world - which is prison. There must be the other side, the opposition.
And this mechanism of duality proves the existence of God.
That's how I see Berkeley, idealism and those who oppose him and those who do not believe in God.
I say, if they are kind and non violent, they are all God's creatures, the idealism.
There is something wrong with Peterson.
In past one month, I have stumbled on his videos about social anxiety and realized he has no knowledge and lacks empathy. I labeled this as fluke and nothing to be bothered about... until I checked his Twitter feed..
He has serious issues with empathy, narcissism (choosing fight response) and not understanding other people - that there are people out there with trauma and wounds, so the logical conclusion is that he is ego.centric.
As you said, he has issues with disagreeableness. In his motivational quotes he promotes free speech - but in the same time he sues University for slander. That is red flag that he talks one thing, but his actions tell completely different things.
Then I realized (by talking with his fans on Twitter) that he oversimplifies everything.
So he has issues with mental shortcuts called logical fallacies and bias.
Coupled with lack of empathy and narcissism and ego-centrism, we have a person who has some psychological issues that are worth examining.
And I have made another discovery in the meant time, that simultaneously came to me with discovery of Peterson's inconsistency:
and that is that people are ran by their should, obligations, - if these are tainted by toxic shame, they get distorted views about themselves, and this is connected with self esteem. People with low self esteem listen to others to get validation, external referencing. They listen to others to get validation because they feel toxic shame about their own life and personality. People like Peterson do not explain such people that they should regard their toxic shame as hallucination, throw it off and seek inside for guidance, and accept their own mistakes - while in the same time listening to super-ego to guide them to be good citizens who obey the law and protect their interest through communication - he rejects all that! And Peterson, as I saw in many of his statements actually use toxic shame to control other people.
For example, in one tweet he says that if you are suffering - that you should not take it personally. That is blaming the victim for trauma. That is very non-ethical statement that is creating more and additional psychological damage.
In his other Tweet he claimed that parents who over protect their children will make their children to be weak.
He does not explain what over protection means, nor what the definition of weak is. He says that children should be exposed to outer world. Well, how about kids who suffered from Complex Trauma and that were exposed to adult hysteria - these children did not grow up strong, they have serious mental and psychological issues (flashbacks, triggers, anxieties, panic attacks).
People who use toxic shame - conditions and punishment - are narcissists, manipulators. This is not psychological help at all, this is psychological injury.
What I see in Peterson is inability to see things, people and events from more than one dimension, he is stuck at one angle - toxic masculinity. In his world, "people should be strong" and "bad things if they happen - it is your fault because you are taking it personally".
What I find out through anti-psychiatry movement is Wu Wei - it is that we take perspective of accepting ourselves, all our mistakes, shortcomings and work on that without ashaming ourselves and without trying to force a change. If we are not evil individuals who deliberately want to hurt others and cause pain to others - there is no need to ashame someone for being "weak".
Not all men can be Terminators, wrestlers, Rambos. Neither the fight response is healthy from psychological term. Situation where violence is needed as response are very rare and extreme occurrences. IF we put a mask of being super-humans, we will create the opposite from macho man - we will become Karen - cranky, annoying bats. Instead I would stick to Zoroastrianism and their discovery that works great against narcissists and manipulators (the bad guys): being honest, authentic, transparent, objective and realistic. IT is not about being aggressive, holding on to grudge and attacking others. Truth can hurt others, and this hurt is the pain of something that bad guys try to hide - as a way to parasite over their easy targets. Truth is amazing weapon - it destroys the lies and clears the air. We should not self censor ourselves, as toxic shame tells us (that we are wrong by default and our mistakes are proof that we are idiots that must hide away from society).
So, in one month I had huge revelation about Peterson and about accepting myself, my own worth, instead of automatically introjecting "advice" and "well meaning" tips from strangers - we all have it inside ourselves, we got to trust our guts, intuition and knowledge - with our mistakes included. There is no other way to self esteem, mental health and emotional balance.
From what I have learned - my own experience and information gathered - is that when we are calm -we act from our wise mind - we operate from cortex. When we are afraid - we operate from amygdala.
There are two problems with this: we don't notice the switch. So we can be running on amygdala without knowing it - people with Complex Trauma are prone to this - being emotionally dysregulated. So the side-effect is that person under amygdala hijacking will believe its own thoughts, there will be cognitive fusion, that is "normal" and functional when operating from cortex brain - but it is dysfunctional and detrimental when running on amygdala. So the result may be harsh and sudden decisions that we regret later, entertaining intrusive thoughts and thus working ourselves to be depressive and more scared.
So the problem is that we run on auto-pilot and this means people who are stuck with amygdala hijacking will not know how to act - which leads to paralysis and freeze response, being stuck and being silent.
Being stuck and being silent, non action, non movement - is mental illness.
If we operate from cortex, from our wisdom we would get ideas and our brain would be able to produce solutions.
I see the solution to this problem - that we prepare our mind for amygdala hijacking - in a way that we identify our responses that are dysfunctional, so that we know how we respond to situations that make us hyperalert, uncomfortable. This way we can use wisdom deposit, similar to having energy resources to keep us warm in the winter.
Another problem is the perception of wisdom and to be wise. It is a form of putting yourself a condition that you must be strong, superior, better. This is also connected to self esteem. We self-sabotage ourselves by explaining ourselves that we must meet certain level otherwise we are not worthy human beings. That our mistakes that result from lack of wisdom, from the best advice and shortcomings that result from lack of wisdom is catastrophe and that it is too painful to be humiliated when we make some mistake. I see this connected to toxic shame.
I see solution in total accepting - accepting that in certain situations we will not be wise. That sometimes we won't know what is the best thing to do. And it is about accepting that even though we might be the wisest person in the world, that our brain is running on cortex all the time and that we do all the best and all the correct things - that reality is - bad things will happen anyway. We can't control other people. We can't control anything, we are only humans.
The paradox with this approach of total acceptance - of us being idiots and dumb is that once we get rid of toxic shame - that we will become calmer - and our cortex brain will start to operate - and we won't feel scared any more.
So what I see is that our need, our urge to be wise is creating fears.
It is telling our brain that we must meet certain conditions in order to be normal. As Camus said - for some people - it takes tremendous energy just to be normal.
So I see that we find the middle ground between trusting our knowledge (wisdom, super-ego) and our impulses or reactiveness that are not based on toxic shame.
I see toxic shame as external factor here -- toxic shame is like parasite of virus, it causes havoc inside us, it distorts our health, it distorts how we see people, events, ourselves, it causes damage. Instead of trying to fix ourselves and trying to be something better - I would work rather on resilience - to search, find and expel toxic shame out of our mind.
Toxic shame being all our obligations, conditions, our shoulds that carry emotional blackmailing - we should regard these as hallucinations, as delusions imposed and implanted by mentally ill person outside of us. Toxic shame causes us to seek external referencing in other people. We don't trust our own wisdom, toxic shame cause us that we seek approval and instruction and guidance from other people.
I believe that instead of toxic shame that we simple allow our super-ego to run the show, that we do not meddle much into the process, we have entity inside that can make decisions instead of our worries and preoccupations what will someone think. I see this as a way to access wisdom inside us.
Oh yeah, I also didn't know anything about it. I learned about it last summer - I had a week of spiritual awakening - in my dream I had a vision of virus as a snake that represents the bad, the virus and it slicks around our body. Later I learned that Zoroastrianism correspond not only to this vision that I had, but also that they speak of good and bad - that the reason why we are on Earth is that the bad is being exposed. And we expose it by telling the truth, by being a good person, having good thoughts and good actions - and being authentic - and because we are not evil people, since we do not have anything to hide, we do not want to cause harm to others - there is no reason to shut up and be silent. Only the evil triumphs from silence. Zoroastrianism is very interesting - they were the oldest religion (some resources say that they are even older than Indian ones), Buddhism, Christianity and Islam borrowed certain religious concepts from Zoroastrianism - and they are definitely the oldest civilizations - Sumerians discovered things that were thousands of years ahead of others. I see that this is connection to being honest, speaking the truth - it is like we access the cortex brain that produce solutions and new ideas, we are not governed by fear and resentment and antagonism.
Zoroastrians also depicted 7 planets around the Sun on their plaques - which tells us that they know that Earth was round and that they had extra-terrestrial knowledge - which makes it very interesting religion to explore.
"in toxic environments, many of these qualities are found to be signs of weakness "
Yeah, I see toxic environment as toxic shame, it is the evil. Evil will make us shut up. This is the prime motivator and action for evil- when you are silent and obedient, this is the only way the evil will be able to control others and exploit them. Evil is unable to produce things and come up with new ideas so the evil parasite over the host who is silent and afraid.
Evil will do anything to make others silent and toxic shaming is excellent tool. since toxic shame is slick and invisible and it transforms - sometimes it is hard to spot it.
Every time when someone accuse you of something, make you feel bad, puts expectations, should and labels - you can suspect that this is toxic shaming. A true friend, a normal and healthy person would be honest to you, but they would not hurt you, they would not cause you pain, they would tell the truth about some wrong action that you might have done - but they would not tell you that you are wrong as person, and that you must change, conform.
Toxic shame is illusion - it is not real. It is hallucination that toxic people try to form as real entity in order to control the target.
The most common way how to control men is to use toxic masculinity. There is no more devastating and controlling thing that someone tells you that you are weak, sissy and coward - they tell this to control you, they want to activate inner critic inside your mind - so that you are silent and that you do not voice out the elephant in the room, they want you to become hysterical so that they say that you are violent and unreasonable. It is all part of dark psychology of manipulation.
"Working against those biases"
Socrates discovered long time ago that there is no absolute truth. People like Peterson exploit this fact - they present themselves as the ultimate database of how things should look like - and then they spread toxic shame by exploiting people who are friendly and open to making contact with other people and who want to follow rules, since rules support social structure. For example, Peterson denies Maslow hierarchy of needs - so he can conveniently blame the victim for suffering and being stuck. By placing the blame on someone, he creates the toxic shame - and toxic shame is being addicted to others for guidance, since your own worth is wrong by default.
This means,
The truth is - in our hands. It is for us to claim the truth and not to depend on others to baby feed us by spoon. Since we can't obtain absolute truth, we can stop the infinity paradox by placing limitations - and we do this by trusting our own common sense (instead of internal and external toxic shame). The truth is in our gathered knowledge, in our resources, in our information, in our etiquette and in our sense of good and right - that is based on common sense.
When we get blamed, ashamed we develop toxic shame and we give up our truth and we put it in other people hands. We think if we make mistake, we can easily blame the others. Then we get additional shaming - because we are all responsible as adults for our actions. Toxic shame puts us in double binding - whatever we do we will be criticized.
Normal and healthy people will try to avoid making mistakes, and toxic people exploit this normal need against ourselves. They rape our kindness and they exploit need for rules and unwritten etiquette. Mistakes are normal part of life - but toxic shame explains us that we should be perfect. This puts us in impossible situation - we become slaves and drones for toxic people - they ashame our mistakes and shortcomings and lack of knowledge while in the same time they present themselves as the source of knowledge and truth. And as I said - there is no absolute truth. Paradox of knowledge is information that works for us - we can refute easily any criticism by knowing mental shortcuts that people make - logical fallacies and biases and oversimplifications. This is what Peterson is doing and any other narcissist out there - they are full of logical fallacies. When we learn these exists we can turn to our Super ego to guide us, and see other people such as Peterson as one of the possibilities of information explanations that may or may not be true.
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I forgot to mention that I've learned that in my case, the hidden factor that is causing all mental problems is toxic shame. It is so hidden that I even forget to mention it.
Since childhood I've been raised in environment where any mistake or shortcoming or lack of knowledge that I've done was scorned as my fault and as the worst thing in the world that could happen. So I internalized that I must follow others for guidance, and that I am worthless as person - that I am invalid and I can't do anything absolute correct manner.
Toxic shame is pervasive (spread to many areas) and thus it influences my obligations, my sense of right and wrong (being perfectionist and expecting unreasonable and non objective goals from myself), the tyranny of shoulds, musts, and shaming rules (that I must not make mistakes).
I see toxic shame as a hidden element that distorts our reality and it should be addressed directly - as realization that toxic shame is hallucination, an illusion - it is a set of dysfunctional cloud of messages that we take and internalize as true and truth - and this is causing havoc in our decision making process - including our thinking.
"You don't have to scratch very far beneath the surface before you find something truly tragic".
This is fact: ""About 1 in 8 people (12.1%) have suffered from Social Anxiety Disorder at some time in their life". So, he is saying that all people have troubles and problems so it is ok to have issues with social anxiety - it should be expected, he claims. But 12% is very low percentage for something that he says that everybody has. Social anxiety is not depression and being realistic how life can be hard, and that there are tragedies out there. Social anxiety is a specific fear, a phobia from people. It is related to Complex Trauma - growing up in dysfunctional environment, giving a relentless messages that the target must obey the authority and that the child should self-censor and take care of the adult. That is the mechanism that rises up social anxiety - not general brutal life circumstances and events. His statement would mean that everyone would suffer from social anxiety, which is not the case.
"most people think they could do a hell a lot better, acutely aware of their faults, and they don't feel what they should be"
This is typical mistake by psychologists and motivators. They focus too much on the symptom - and later he actually is aware that mangers are doing this - he said that managers are focused on solving day to day problems without being aware of goals of organizations. This is what he is doing - he noticed the things that his patients told him. And he made conclusion based on the face value, he only see the tip of the iceberg and then he draws conclusions about social anxiety. Once again, he is wrong. As he says:
"if you have someone self-conscious, there'll be a litany in their head of all of their inadequacies, they have inner tormentor, constantly natters at them about how useless and weak inadequate they are"
Social anxiety is not about perfectionism exclusively. It is about other people - this is why it is called social anxiety. People are the problem. Most patients will not tell him in the face what they are really afraid of because it is embarrassing and many of them are not aware what bothers them since they lack psychological insight. People with social anxiety are afraid of other people criticism. This is the mechanism that makes them think they could do better. It is not their own minds or their own whim. So - this is where he blames the victim for the trauma. He does not acknowledge that people with social anxiety had experience in the past where they were victims of mentally ill person. And that any future encounter with similar rude and critical person activates the social anxiety symptoms, it is PTSD. People with social anxiety suffer from flashbacks and triggers - but he does not acknowledge this. He claims that socially anxious people are moody - without a hidden reason that is external.
"it reminds you of things that are not going to be counter-productive – interiorized public opinion – that can be useful, it points out your shortcomings"
What he talks about here is Super-Ego. We gather knowledge inside us that starts to have a life on its own. Similar to Arthur C Clarke 2001 Odyssey when HAL becomes aware of itself. This Super Ego is toxic when there is toxic shame present. Peterson does not mention Toxic shame at all - because all the time he is focused and zoomed onto the patient, the target. And he is not aware of external factor - that there are predators out there who are making other people ill, especially when they are vulnerable, kids. Skinner said: "Society strikes early, when the individual is helpless". Once we realize our toxic shame is hallucination - we can embrace our Super Ego as our guide, as our manager - and we can accept our mistakes - that are normal a part of learning process, instead of being ashamed of mistakes due to toxic shame which was imposed and implanted by external factor.
"managers"
This is what I mean when I say that Peterson is corporate psychologist. He is actually helping greedy corporations to make drones and slaves out of people who will be functional enough to serve the wealthy greedy polluting corporations. He does not want the individual to be free and without toxic shame, he wants the individual who will be able to walk, but still on a leash - individuals who are controlled by external factor through obligations, shoulds, rules.
"your conscious will torment you for things you're not doing"
Nope. It is toxic shame. There is nothing wrong with us. We are all different in a way, but if we are not sociopaths and psychopats - we should be aware that whatever we do is ok. As Shakespeare said: Be just and fear not. Or Tennessee said: Nothing human disgust me unless it's unkind or violent. Peterson is ignoring toxic shame because he does not understand what Social anxiety is. He would be aware if he had soul and love - he lacks love. He also does not understand the concept of amygdala. People who are triggered by trauma - their brain is switched to amygdala - many people are not aware of this. And then, their decisions work on basic level, there is no higher, cortex decisions. So it is normal that amygdala will turn to basic instructions. And guess what these instructions are for people who suffered from dysfunctional childhood, with messages of constant blame and scapegoating? Yeah, this is where torment is coming from - it is not Super Ego itself. It is a code, a programming that was inserted, implanted and imposed by External factor - mentally ill people who are predators.
"not doing in relationship ideal of your conscience"
When our Super Ego is tainted with Toxic shame, our ideal is tainted too. Our obligations, sense of duty, our rules, our shoulds are tainted with criticism that was imposed by other people. Peterson tells nothing about this - he is zoomed into a patient. By doing this, he is unwittingly blaming the victim for being traumatized.
"people say they value being happy, they don't even mean that by the way – if you decompose what they mean when they say they want to be happy what it turns out they actually mean.."
What Peterson is trying to say - and he can't find words - is that the great problem in general (not with anxiety only) is that people are not aware of what kind of emotions they have. The labeling. They either do not know - or they mislabel what is happening. This can have detrimental effect because it can lead us astray. This is why it is important to find a good therapist or someone who studied psychology to interrogate our labels. I see information, looking for knowledge as a way to evade this problem with labels. Sometimes, the right label will help on its own - because once we identify the problem, our previous knowledge and experience will helps us to make a stand and future decision that will help us solve the problem - once it is identified as problem with correct label.
"they're way more concerned with avoiding suffering than they are with pursuing positive emotion"
No, People with social anxiety are concerned only about other people. This is why it is called social anxiety. People with social anxiety were traumatized by other people and they developed trauma bonding and external referencing. External validation leads to people pleasing and fawning, which is shutting up and self-censorship and avoidance of conflict and confrontation. The root problem with social anxiety is being unable to handle conflict. And Peterson does not tells this - he blames the victim for having concerns about symptoms. So again, he makes shortcuts in conclusions, being zoomed in to a problem, totally ignores the unseen problems that are hidden in the water, submerged, and he deals with problems that are on the surface - and thus his advice can't help to person with social anxiety.
"we're not transparent to ourselves, we wouldn't have to spend decades of studying psychology if we were transparent- We're tremendously mysterios to ourselves"
If he applied this fact, he would know that patients that come to him have hidden information and that they will not be honest to him due to embarrassment - which is the social anxiety itself, but also people are not aware what they have inside due to lack of knowledge from psychology.
Because he ignores Maslow's needs and because he lacks love - his views of Social anxiety are skewed. He does not really listen to people with social anxiety - instead he jumps to conclusions and makes shortcuts.
What I see in his statements is that he has issues with narcissism and he tries to cover it up - so he completely ignores the external factor. Without this factor taken into consideration, Complex trauma is left unresolved. Also, this has a side-effect of blaming the victim for trauma. So in Peterson's world - somehow a socially anxious person invented itself nagging and complains, pessimism and negative outlooks. It fell out of space.
Person with social anxiety is afraid of other's people opinion. This is fueled by toxic shame. Toxic shame was implanted during childhood and Complex Trauma. This is not the fault of traumatized person. Being aware of our own faults is a program, a code that was implanted by mentally ill aggressive untreated people in our close environment. Now as adults, certain people, certain actions (such as criticism, nagging, complaining) triggers us into amygdala hijacking - and we are not aware our mind is shifted in fear state. So we obey our thoughts and we think our thinking is "normal" and we engage with fears. When we are calmed down we operate from cortex brain - this is when we can seek solutions and we see what is wrong and we can access our archive database and find solutions or form new ideas. People with social anxiety - this mental process - being stuck in amygdala or solution solving from cortex is tainted by toxic shame. Toxic shame being a virus inside us. The more we are aware of what is toxic shame, the less shame and embarrassment we'll be burdened with. People like Peterson are focused on the symptoms and that is not good. Toxic shame makes us develop resentment towards ourselves and other people. In the same time, due to Compex trauma, our main strategy to deal with people is to fawn - because we were taught by society to be friendly. This puts us in position to be exploited by predators. We lack the knowledge how to deal with conflict and high conflict people, how to engage in confrontation in the correct and civilized manned. Assertiveness techniques fail us because of external referencing - we don't trust our self worth (Super Ego) and instead we see other people as superior while we are inferior. We don't trust our voice inside, our knowledge, our common sense, our gathered information database - instead we focus on other people - especially those who are loud, obnoxious and aggressive.
If we were aware of this we would stop introjecting, stop seeing other people as our guide - we would feel on par with others - and this means we would talk, alarm and alert them when they cross their lines. We would ignore them if they ignore us. We would leave them instead of serving them. And we would focus on good people in our lives that we take for granted - because toxic people who we attract like moth to a flame exhaust our energy - so we hide and isolate from all people. Now we can start to filter them - and corporate psychologist do not want that. They want obedient, serving slaves and drones who stay stuck and loyal to their tormentors. Now, that is social anxiety - not what Peterson is talking about!
Social anxiety is not researched enough - I learned that this is due to lack of funding and because it takes a lot of time to research behaviour and effect on people over long time to have enough scientific data. Therefore, when motivators and psychologist are talking about social anxiety - we should be aware this is all experimental, there is no solution to social anxiety, only traces of what might help.
I see social anxiety as Rosetta stone to other anxiety disorders. Once the solution is found - the immunity and anti-bodies that work for Social anxiety will be applied to all anxiety and panic disorders as well.
Also, I see that old-school psychologist and motivators such as Peterson are missing the labels to address the problem at its heart.
If you suffer from social anxiety and avoidance - explore, google these important concepts that obviously were not mentioned by Peterson (for whatever reason) yet are closely related to Social anxiety:
- toxic shame (motor that keeps social anxiety going)
- Polyvagal Theory (tells us what happens when we are afraid)
- immature ego defense mechanism (to realize what we are doing wrong)
- cognitive distortions (ways how we try to control the uncontrollable events and people)
- external referencing, external validation (we see others as Gods)
- Complex Trauma - CPTSD (programming from childhood that gives us triggers now)
- Flashbacks and imprinting (that influence our thinking and dysregulate us)
- fawning (response to fears in form of being obedient and self-censor)
- introjection (soaking up other's emotions so their reactions stuck at us like leech)
-amygdala hijacking, emotional hijacking (our fears take over the plane)
- ego-centrism (when we see events and people only from limited, skewed, one view)
- logical fallacies (we learn that there is no absolute truth, SAD believe only others are right)
- cognitive biases (we learn that we are aware only of limited input we expose ourselves)
- self worth and intrinsical values (we trust our gut and mistakes instead of rejecting it)
- scapegoating (we learn when someone tries to shut us up)
- gaslighting (we learn when someone tries to manipulate us)
- narcissistic injury (to learn why people are rude)
- trauma bonding (Stockholm syndrome is also social anxiety described)
- cognitive defusion (we learn not to take our thoughts as exclusive reality)
- PureOCD and intrusive thoughts (we learn our fears are actually thoughts stuck in a loop)
- thinking errors (we learn some thoughts are like virus code)
- inner shadow (we accept that we are ok even if we're dumb, make mistake, embarrassed)
- inferiority complex (we learn what makes us to fawn)
- narcissistic abuse (to learn about predators and external factor)
- emotional abuse (verbal abuse, psychological abuse)
- emotional dyregulation (we learn our symptoms are normal reaction to abnormal settings)
- Descartes Evil demon hypothesis (to let go of ego-centrism)
- Zoroastrianism (to learn to be authentic, honest and speak up the truth)
- Elephant in the room (we have ability to see it - this cause anxiety because we shut up)
- External factor (we realize we attract predators like moth to a flame because we're ok)
- Perfectionism (let go of our drive to serve and be obedient by making deliberate mistake)
- Codependency (we learn being dependent on others is addiction, not our whim)
- Action (we are defined by what we do, not what we say. Also, action is healthy)
- Ambiguity (we learn SAD is like being in vacuum - we try to hold on to people to get grip)
- Agreeableness (through Wu Wei we accept our need to fix others but with conditions)
- Wu Wei (we do not punish ourselves yet we let go our reactions to come naturally)
- Learned helplessness (we understand we grip onto others because of programming)
- Three Stages (to avoid allergy, Karen mode- we gather information before making move)
- Assertiveness (we speak up, voice out our concern without expecting others to change)
So in the end, if we zoom out of social anxiety - what matters the most is that we are not stuck, that we take action instead. And that we handle our pessimistic, negative outlook and perspective (which is influenced by toxic shame). Social anxiety makes us stuck in observation mode - since we are afraid of being observed. We learn from quantum physics that when we observe - we get stuck, the life is about flow, things must be materialized in order to be life. This means - we got to make steps, we got to embarrass ourselves, we got to make mistakes, we got to experience other people mock and laugh at us. In the end what matters is what kind of person are we? Will we be hysterical? Will we attack others? Will we be uncomfortable person with ugly personality? Will we exploit others and be evil? No - people with social anxiety are nice, good people - there is nothing wrong with us, even when we turn out wrong, mistaken and stupid, dumb. We got to me in motion. Being stuck and avoidant and ashamed, isolated and withdrawn is not healthy. We can only start to move -when we know we are on par with others. We got to realize we do not feel on par because of dysfunctional programming, it is not our fault. We got to be prepared for being open and friendly and nice - but also to defend ourselves when faced with predators. The best defense is talk, voicing out the elephant in the room, being honest, being authentic. And if toxic environment is still toxic - we have the right to seek better, not being stuck in worry, we got to move on. Being active - talking and walking and moving on, being in motion.
Peterson does not tell this, because he is talking from narcissistic perspective - he wants us to move as much as he allows us, as corporations allow us , as bully allow us. We have inside ourselves the knowledge, the energy, the source to deal with problems - it is our Super Ego . and we build it up by accumulating information and knowledge. If we are not evil, whatever happens, our conscious will be clear. We can do the very best thing, we can follow the best advice - and still fail. So there are no absolute truth out there. Narcissists, predators exploit this to their advantage. They present themselves as guides and superior ones - and they do this by toxic shame, shaming others means controlling others - pulling out inner critic to work for them through distorting our rules, obligations and shoulds - which is illusion, hallucination. We got to trust our own self worth and pursue our dreams, goals and follow good people and constantly learn.
Concrete instructions, step-by-step are not working because social anxiety is connected with personality - therefore its solution should be focused on Wu Wei - acceptance of thinfs we don't like about ourselves and others - and incorporating it in our life, through information and knowledge
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Enter external factor - narcissists, exploiters, users, bullies, abusers, parasites, manipulators - that for some reason (job, security, shelter, resources, help, service, finances) control you - and they demand unrealistic and non objective goals from you - or you could face being homeless.
OR
internalized shame, toxic shame - the years of childhood programming that left your with complex trauma - and you are hypnotized into external referencing and external validation, fawning and introjection, where you feel other people crankiness and anger as your fault ans something you must fix.
These two factors are not taken in consideration by stoics, and CBT mentors, and these are causing a great distress to the target - both not being aware of it, and not doing anything about it.
Stocis and CBT will tell you that no one can make you feel anything unless you comply - but mentors are not aware of emotional dysregulation, amygdala hijacking and intrusive thoughts (PureOCD). Due to this ignorance, stoics and CBT therapists (and people like Jordan Peterson) unwittingly are blaming the victim for trauma.
Seneca didn't get into his equation that focusing in reality, staying in the present - works ok if you environment is healthy and not toxic and mentally ill.
"everyday we challenge ourselves"
puts us into hyperalert mode, amygdala lizard brain full of anxieties and fears and panic, not our full potential.
"who we surround ourselves with"
Like - people can filter out on their job who will be their customer? Who will they meet on the road that will tailgate them and drive them nuts? What about living in toxic environment where we can't make choice and filter out - other than isolate ourselves and withdraw - which lead to social anxiety and avoidance issues.
Seneca is a dreamer in this respect - the brutal truth is that we can do the most correct thing in the world and still fail. I see his preoccupation with danger a problem with intrusive thoughts and PureOCD.
it is external referencing, external validation, trauma bonding, fawning, introjection. It is a coctail of not having self own worth, and I seek it externally - from other people. So their emotions effect me. Their opinion effect me - because I see them as the source of my worth.
This is connected to social anxiety and Complex Trauma (programming from childhood that I learned to distrust my opinion as invalid) and toxic shame (seeing myself as inept).
Own worth means to rely on my own decisions, including mistakes and turning up stupid. It also includes to talk back to people, alarm and alert them, voice out the elephant in the room.
Another reason is that I think things from many perspectives, I see everything from any dimension and any possible angle - so when someone nags, it feels frustrating because I see every angle - while this person is one dimensional, ego-centric - and I am convinced that this person knows all angles, since they are all so clear to me and so it is not worthy to argument mine opinions and reasons. This is mistake. I see self-censorship in this case as very psychologically detrimental. When we shut up to evil, the evil flourishes.
Another reason is knowing Socrates paradox of knowledge - that there is no absolute truth. And dualism - which means anything has two sides. So if someone criticize, I think it is not worthy to mention the dualism - the opposite view as valid, and employ Socrates method - to pretend that I do not know, so that other person explains its views - so with interrogation the person would find out that there is no absolute truth,
we never know what other person feels. Freud discovered that there is subconsciousness, even people are not aware what is submerged under- we only see that tip of the iceberg.
As much as they were born to parasite over good, kind, honest and real people. It is time to break that loop.
The evil can't show itself as satan in this plane of reality, we would recognize the horns - so it embodies itself as narcissism and through narcissists and we were carefully molded to serve it.
I am starting to realize we have explanations in our heads which are wrong. The explanations we run in our head are connected to our shortcomings, our errors and toxic shaming explanations that we were exposed when vulnerable, and we frighten ourselves with those labels. We tell ourselves we are unworthy and we have those proofs and evidence - and these are all lies. We got to change the explanations and what appears real to us
This is why it is crucial that we do not beat ourselves up, that we stick by ourselves when others try to humiliate us for being too nice and not seeing the red flags.
With that being said, it is also ok to learn about red flags and to be aware of external factor: evil people; narcissists, abusers, users, parasites, sociopaths, psychopaths, manipulators, predators, emotional vampires, borderliners.
Borderliners are the toughest here because they are not really psychopath narcissists but they act like one and create the same damage as narcissists and in the same time they appear friendly and warm and vulnerable (which serves them as a tool, it is the hook for us to fix them and take care of their wounds).
With that being said, I think that there is a deep reason why we get stuck - it has to do with brain injury. Trauma - repeated exposure to abnormal criticism in childhood - gets etched inside the brain - so whenever we feel threatened and when we perceive real or imagined danger - our amygdala takes over and it follow this etching inside - it gravitates toward getting stuck and worst case scenario depression. This means we can't logically get unstuck. CBT won't work - it will create only more fears and panic.
This also means if we are aware of this brain injury - we know our automatic development of thoughts will run into wrong direction - so we got to take manual over-ride.
As you said, strong sense of self - I see it like knowing in advance what to expect when I feel threatened: 1) that I do not get into thinking loop, solving the perceived assault in my brain 2) and instead - to go against instinct of mutism - and to alarm and alert other person to stop by being objective and honest (warning if someone is hysterical for example), and 3) to do job that is unrelated to my thoughts of impending doom, which means I focus on task to be done and my own goals, needs.
This what I wrote is all new information for me -- I learned this past year, mostly thanks to You tube videos like yours, collecting all information from all available sources.
Before - when I would deal with my social anxiety as my main problem - I would shut up, self-censor myself and go to my instincts - I would fawn. So people would accuse me of something not true - and I would keep silent in order not to rock the boat. This for me had the psychologically speaking detrimental effect - because it would enforce the toxic shame - that I am inept, that I am not on par with other people, that there is something seriously wrong with me, and that I must endure verbal abuse, psychopaths and parasites.
I would be afraid that when I would start to talk - the other person would throw temper tantrum due to their narcissistic injury - and I was programmed to shut up as response, not move, take the blame and guilt - and I would not speak, I would not voice out the elephant in the room - something that was obvious - because I thought that the other person is intelligent and that they know everything as I do, that they analyze everything like I do from every angle - and I would abolish them - as being wounded, so they should not be bothered or be told the truth because it would hurt them.
In the past year I learned about breakthrough concepts such as external referencing, trauma bonding, fawning, introjection, immature ego defense mechanism, realizing that cognitive distortions are the (totally ineffective) way to control other people, emotional dysregulation, Complex Trauma, amygdala hijacking, Polyvagal theory - and for some reason all these concepts were out of my scope of awareness, even though I read many SAD resources.
For example, in Goleman's Emotional Intelligence - I read this book in late 1990s, he never ever speaks about fawning. If I knew what fawning means, it would make a difference in how I stand up for myself. He writes about fight-freeze response, but he doesn't explain that this is happening inside our brain without us being aware. This information would help me to realize that I flow along with intrusive thoughts, taking them for granted, because I am not aware that I am in hyperalert, hypervigilant state.
Also, Bradshaw's book about toxic shame - he does not explain that toxic shame is hallucination - he writes half of his book about hard and difficult process of removing toxic shame - making it stronger and persistent than in reality.
Or The Highly Sensitive Person, Book by Elaine Aron - also the third book from late 90s - she never ever mentions trauma that creates HSP - being hyperalert and being hypervigilant. This information would make me aware why I am constantly anxious. Also, in her book she lacks the concept of Wu Wei - I was left with her book that I am seriously damaged but I must force myself to see sensitivity as gift because I am aware of details. This info doesn't help much when I am faced with hysterical people and their temper tantrums, crankiness and predatory manipulation. :D
It is true that it turns out as sabotage, but the information this happens unconsciously doesn't help for people already struggling with toxic shame - overwhelming feeling of being inept and unrealistic view of being inferior to other people.
Also, in past few months I am realizing the concept of brain injury.
This means - our thoughts, actions, decisions, explanations will default to etched trauma - we're conditioned like Pavlovian dogs to get stuck and to have relentless panic and overwhelming fear inside. So, being aware that is cause sabotage - doesn't help much. Instead I would bring to focus this brain injury concept - as a way to give us strength, power, approval and endorsement to take power in our hands- similar to manual over-ride the automatic auto-pilot drive by doing mentally healthy thing - removing focus from perceived danger and taking some action in align to our goals, tasks, jobs, dream (as oppose to serving and obeying predators and manipulators and their shaming as a way to control us).
Brain injury concept removes toxic shame and blame from the focus, it relieves Sisyphus rock off our back and gives us the key in our hands to move, to take action, and not to be stuck in loop of intrusive thoughts and trying to resolve imaginary danger.
fear from failure keeps us safe - it keeps us from stress. It preserves our way of life, it keeps us mentally healthy and mentally stable - as oppose to putting ourselves into situation where we would be triggered into fears and panic and even worse self sabotage: fawning, people pleasing, external referencing, getting exploited, adding up new toxic shame and adding up new trauma - since we are unable to get unstuck as it is right now.
This is why I like Kurt Lewin concept - he said that we have to make a plan and gather enough information before venturing into a project.
For people with Complex Trauma this means that we got to get enough information how it plays out in our lives exactly. For me - it is fawning. Also it helps to list my own "sabotage" decisions and actions - such as not having high expectations, and expecting that there are borderline people out there - people who appear friendly, warm and nice - but in the same time they make drama and ashame others to control them - so I can ditch them out of my life without feeling guilty.
I wrote my pet peeves in my blog " List what can I expect - What can I control in myself outside" - so that I can be aware how I act when I am feeling triggered.
This will give me information how to get unstuck.
As I see sabotage - when we get stuck in a loop, when we do not take action. It is all about getting back on our feet and that show must go on. I see sabotage as a veil of negative pessimistic outlook on life that tells us that nothing is worthy and nothing will change and that there is no hope.
I see this stuckness and pessimism - as brain injury. Brain injury being defined as etched brain due to relentless constant criticism when we were kids. It is ingrained now in our brain as inferiority complex and avoidance - and this is default way how we react to issues, problems, hardships, difficult events and difficult people.
And we have to realize I go through life with my hand break pulled on - and I have to unlock it. I have to make manual over-ride by expecting my trauma reactions - and that I do not engage into usual and habitual intrusive thoughts thinking (PureOCD) . and instead take action and be in movement-
When I am aware of my trauma response as fawning - in practice this would mean that I do not self-censor myself, that I voice out natural reaction to predators when they cross their boundaries, speak out the elephant in the room.
I see this as a way to stop sabotaging ourselves - a coctail of different explanations than habitual ones (that we take due to brain injury) and taking action.
Peterson also claims that anxiety will always be there, so if we feel anxiety here and there from time to time - that this is normal and we can't do nothing about it but just take it as it is and carry the burden of anxiety that will eventually fall of by itself. This is not true. Anxiety is sign, alarm that something is wrong - and it should not be ignored, it will turn itself into panic and it will grow in size with time.
Peterson denies Maslow pyramid hierarchy - so he has free hands in convincing the individual that the person must be "strong", and suggesting if you are not strong, that you are pretending to be victim and that you are weak person. This is toxic shame one on one. Without acknowledging Maslow's hierarchy, it is easy to claim that suffering is the result of choice - and if we suffer that it is our whim.
I see the bad advice is when it can be defined as: oversimplification (as every Jordan Peterson statement) and when it is ego-centric (it doesn't acknowledge different and multiple levels and angles of perspective) and when it lacks empathy (instead it is antagonistic).
1) being stuck (non movement, intrusive thoughts loop, trying to resolve, predict danger)
and
2) pessimistic outlook
I realized that as the general rule for intrusive thoughts - the urge to control it - only produces more anxiety.
Instead I realized that Complex Trauma etched our brain due to relentless criticism when we were children into these two default ways: avoidance and negativity. That is brain injury.
It is default way when we are not consciously aware - our decisions will be based on being stuck and catastrophizing.
Paradoxically, this knowledge of brain injury gives me power - as you said power back to ourselves - it is manual over-ride. It is getting a hand brake that is stuck - getting it unstuck.
Without taking into consideration that there is brain injury - I am trying to solve the intrusive thoughts myself - even via suggested therapy for PureOCD, intrusive thoughts feel like leech that can't be shaken off, no matter how I try to shake it off. It doesn't even help to be blamed that it is my choice to feel unwell, that I am victimizing myself - I can't shake off someone being rude to me in a situation where I feel vulnerable - doing something new or that I am not in position to say no and thus defend my borders. I see realization about brain injury as a way to lift the veil of toxic shame - I put keys in my hand and instead of being stuck in figuring ways out - I focus on something else, I move on and it doesn't bother me any more. I see the pain and shame as something that is etched due to trauma, that became habit. I move on by doing the opposite from brain injury meesage: 1) move on, take action - it doesn't have to be physical, it is action in my mind to focus on task, goals, my dreams and 2) realizing that relentless feeling of doom and pessimism and depression is hallucination stemming from toxic shame. As hallucination I can allow it to be there, but simply move on and no longer try to solve it or fight it or make it better - because I know this feeling of disgust and unfairness and depression is engraving in my brain due to trauma. It is not the only way as it presents itself in my explanation and appearance.
CBT is focusing on the stick, while PureOCD techniques tell us that the act of monitoring sticks is illness and wrong way.
OR instead of this power plant, we can have Chernobyl instead - where we can't handle intrusive thoughts, it leaks and cause invisible damage.
I see we have Chernobyl when we are stuck (not moving, stuck in loop) and when we are depressive and pessimistic.
I also realized that when I can't shake off intrusive thought (for me these are situations where I am expected to do some task perfectly, but the other person is criticizing me, ashaming me, being hysterical and I am unable to perform perfectly due to lack of knowledge, fears, shyness or toxic shame - thinking I am inept)- that this inability to shake off these incidents that come to my mind as flashbacks and triggers - is due to concept of brain injury - where my brain is etched to worry and think negatively by default - so I need to take manual over-ride, get unstuck and focus on my goals, task, dreams, good people - instead of people pleasing people who scare me as a way to avoid the danger or another attack.
Without this brain injury concept, I engage into thinking about danger, or to be more exact - to what I perceive as danger - certain situations and certain people. I try to solve it and find perfect solution. When I am aware that due to Complex Trauma and Toxic shame I am prone to need and urge to fix problems, external validation and abandoning self worth - as a way it is etched inside my brain and I can't do anything about it - it paradoxically gives me relief and power in the same time to move stuck needle of the groove (broken record) onto a next song.
When I am aware my brain injury will make me to judge and put labels on things no matter what, that this is default way for my brain to operate, that I will try to resolve and fix other people's emotions as a way to avoid danger, being hurt by them, this concept of brain injury gives me the power to realize this is outside of my control. -Both brain injury and need to control other people and their emotions.
Without the burden of leech, unshakable intrusive thoughts I can think clearly and I realize that due to immature ego defense mechanism I am prone to see everything black and white - now I can see the source of my intrusive thoughts can be gray. That people when they are angry, they are not angry at me and they do not hate me. OR if some borderline person is nice and warm to me in one moment, then judgmental and rude and hysterical at the next - I can end that unhealthy contact without feeling guilty, because I would see their nice moments as approval for them to be monsters and mean to me.
Brain injury concept helps me shake off intrusive thoughts that get stuck at me like a leech and no matter what I do (ignore or engage) I can't shake them off. It helps me to get rid of external referencing and fawning - automatically shutting up, self-censorship and not speaking out my opinion.
Perhaps this info will help those people who are still stuck with intrusive thoughts, no matter what they did.
Anyway, I had the once in a lifetime to apply and experiment Viktor Frankl's idea that he propose in the book - via the closest environment that he himself was unfortunately exposed to.
He has honest intentions and his words are words of hope - but unfortunately - they create more anxiety. They do not help.
This is why:
Frankl's basic premise is that I am the one who chooses how to perceive the environment. The basic mistake that he makes is - that he talks from his experience - he is normal person. He was not programmed to default to being stuck in loop intrusive thoughts and pessimistic way of looking at life. He didn't had Complex Trauma. He did not have social anxiety before nazi camps. His mind was not programmed to fawn, to develop trauma bonding and external referencing - he did not have brain injury before traumatic event that he experienced in his adulthood. Therefore, his reaction is normal as reaction to abnormal circumstances - as he says in his own words. Without intrusive thoughts, without programmed trauma that comes back in flashbacks and triggers - he can shake of anxiety simply by stating that he can choose his opinion. People with CPTSD etched in their brain as brain injury can't do that. These people have a hand brake on already. They carry as Sisyphus his rock hidden anxiety already - since childhood. These people did not develop - they got stuck during time when trauma occurred. These people are infected by toxic shame - which is wrecking havoc on decisions ,explanations and perceptions. This is hidden - this is going on without them knowing about it. That's his biggest failure to account people who are not healthy as adults, that got sick in their childhood - this is not their fault.
With that being said, Frankl is not to be dismissed easily - he had great discoveries that are worth exploring - however his statements about us being able to change ourselves at press of the button cause more anxiety - for people who underwent trauma as kids. Trauma does not mean shocking or extreme event - trauma is being bullied or being exposed to relentless, neverending criticism and blaming and expecting perfectionism from a small child.
Also - it is worth mentioning that people like Jordan Peterson and inspirational gurus who interpret Stoicism from superficial position - they are influenced by Frankl's not taking into consideration people who went through trauma - and this is creating a great distress for people who listen to them - and their advice simply does not work. Peterson is doing even more damage by oversimplification - thus creating distortions.
It is said that psychopaths have small amygdala. Thus they can't feel emotions, they are like robots - and that makes them easy to hurt others.
Thus - Our fears give us our ability to be good person. For someone who believes in heaven, this is important fact. For someone who observes interdependence as the highest form of socializing this is also important - to be able to be afraid.
When someone feels anxiety - he will try not to hurt others, since he knows how much it hurts to battle this inner demon. You don't want to cause others to suffer the same pain as you feel it through your anxieties.
Enter predators - they parasite over nice, kind people, people who underwent trauma and who are feeling fears and anxiety.
I would see the future where people with small amygdala go to mental institutions and are observed closely - as candidates for becoming criminals, abusers and worse.
I don't see amygdala as problem - problem are predators who exploit our fears and activating our amygdala through their aggression, temper tantrums, hysteria, yelling and violence.
I discovered this switch as Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde phenomena. It is helpful because we tend to expect too much out of ourselves when we are panicked and afraid, and we tend to control and fix people and events that are outside of our control. This is because when we operate from Cortex part of brain - we are not concerned about who thinks and what other thinks about us, we get ideas, we are clear about solving problems and we don't care about things we can't control- during the switch - we still think we are in cortex mode and we apply sophisticated thinking to basic mode which does not support so much commands and operations that we try to pull. Once we are aware of this Polyvagal theory, we can stop be so demanding on ourselves and take it easy and focus on calming down - instead of fanatical search for cure for anxiety.
Another big revelation is that besides common fight-freeze and flight response is also fawning. Without this information I would beat myself up for being people pleaser, thinking I am weak - while fawning has its positive role - to not rock the boat and diplomacy and it is usually programming from dysfunctional environment during growing up.
I have been looking at problems exactly this way. And it turned into anxiety, fears and panic. It was because I tried to control things that are out of my control - other people and events.
Mixed with external referencing (placing my own self worth in other people hands due to toxic shame) - I also made myself self-censor and shut up when the other person behaved outrageously - hysterically, aggressively - I would stop my natural reaction - voicing out the elephant in the room and - I would fawn - and be easy target for toxic people.
So I had two beliefs: that I must fix other people problems since I saw them as superior and as my guides and as the correct ones - to the point of being slave to them, people pleasing them and in the same time I felt inferior, that I am inept, that my opinion and sense of right and wrong is wrong by default - so I would be afraid to make decisions and make mistakes - for the fear of other people criticism.
So with this "twisted" perspective - inferiority complex mixes with toxic shame - I continually asked myself what is the problem here. And I did found out the last year, after the decades of search. As I said - in the past one year I realized the new concepts (that were somehow hidden from my view even though I read tons of medical resources about social anxiety and fears and anxiety) that helped me get new perspective why am I afraid of people and why I avoid people and have anxiety and fears;
- toxic shame (motor that keeps social anxiety going and it is actually hallucination)
- Polyvagal Theory (tells us what happens when we are afraid)
- immature ego defense mechanism (to realize what we are doing wrong)
- cognitive distortions (ways how we try to control the uncontrollable events and people)
- external referencing, external validation (we see others as Gods)
- Complex Trauma - CPTSD (programming from childhood that gives us triggers now)
- Flashbacks and imprinting (that influence our thinking and dysregulate us)
- fawning (response to fears in form of being obedient and self-censor)
- introjection (soaking up other's emotions so their reactions stuck at us like leech)
-amygdala hijacking, emotional hijacking (our fears take over the plane)
- ego-centrism (when we see events and people only from limited, skewed, one view)
- logical fallacies (we learn that there is no absolute truth, SAD believe only others are right)
- cognitive biases (we learn that we are aware only of limited input we expose ourselves)
- self worth and intrinsical values (we trust our gut and mistakes instead of rejecting it)
- scapegoating (we learn when someone tries to shut us up)
- gaslighting (we learn when someone tries to manipulate us)
- narcissistic injury (to learn why people are rude)
- trauma bonding (Stockholm syndrome is also social anxiety described)
- cognitive defusion (we learn not to take our thoughts as exclusive reality)
- PureOCD and intrusive thoughts (we learn our fears are actually thoughts stuck in a loop)
- thinking errors (we learn some thoughts are like virus code)
- inner shadow (we accept that we are ok even if we're dumb, make mistake, embarrassed)
- inferiority complex (we learn what makes us to fawn)
- narcissistic abuse (to learn about predators and external factor)
- emotional abuse (verbal abuse, psychological abuse)
- emotional dyregulation (we learn our symptoms are normal reaction to abnormal settings)
- Descartes Evil demon hypothesis (to let go of ego-centrism)
- Zoroastrianism (to learn to be authentic, honest and speak up the truth)
- Elephant in the room (we have ability to see it - this cause anxiety because we shut up)
- External factor (we realize we attract predators like moth to a flame because we're ok)
- Perfectionism (let go of our drive to serve and be obedient by making deliberate mistake)
- Codependency (we learn being dependent on others is addiction, not our whim)
- Action (we are defined by what we do, not what we say. Also, action is healthy)
- Ambiguity (we learn SAD is like being in vacuum - we try to hold on to people to get grip)
- Agreeableness (through Wu Wei we accept our need to fix others but with conditions)
- Wu Wei (we do not punish ourselves yet we let go our reactions to come naturally)
- Learned helplessness (we understand we grip onto others because of programming)
- Three Stages (to avoid allergy, Karen mode- we gather information before making move)
- Assertiveness (we speak up, voice out our concern without expecting others to change)
- Ebbinghaus Forgetting curve (whatever steps and instruction we get- we will default to our normal everyday mode - which may be brain injury)
For some unknown reason all these concepts are not available when you research fears, avoidance, panic, anxiety, social phobia, people pleasing - you do not get this concepts. And of course I feel fears - when only thing that is available to the public is CBT and superficial Stoic quotes - that are only increasing fears since they do not target the core wound.
The core wound is Complex Trauma. As kids, people who struggle with anxieties were exposed to relentless criticism and blame all the time.
Ok, with all these information now gathered and acknowledged - it helps to ease the fears - but they are still present.
Now this is where your quote is coming into play:
"Your problem is solution"
Problem I had is that I still had intrusive thoughts (that were generating anxiety) and I could not shake them off, they stuck at me like a leech.
I discovered this was due to brain injury. Complex Trauma cause brain to default to these two modes:
1) getting stuck, being in a loop - trying to solve problem that is unsolvable
2) pessimistic mode, negative outlook
And paradoxically - knowing about brain injury gets me unstuck. I stop searching for problem that I obviously cannot solve, I stop getting focused on scary situations, events that seem dangerous and hysterical people - because I know that there is no better solution than my natural reactions: 1)alarm and alert the person or 2) leaving them, cut contact.
Brain injury is something inside me - I cannot resolve this. It is up to me to take manual over-ride and focus on the next thing, instead of obsessively trying to resolve perceived or imaginary dangers. Which aligns with your title of this video:
"Get Fixated on Your Process, Not Your Problem"
People like me who are still struggling with intrusive anxiety, flashbacks and triggers - and you can't resolve it no matter what you do - just try to see it like brain injury - it is etched inside our brain that we react to problems in two dysfunctional ways:
1) getting stuck in a loop, procrastination, avoiding action and 2) catastrophizing.
It is up to us to unhook the stuck gear, It is up to us to take manual over-ride, it is up to us to unbreak the hand-break that got stuck on and we drive to live with out hand break turned on.
We simply got to stop paying attention to problems that are unsolvable and let our Super Ego to work it out if it can and focus on our goals, tasks, dreams and good people who we take for granted. Mental illness is being stuck and not moving - trying to resolve unresolvable. Mental health is being in the movement, taking actions. I see Super Ego as our depository of knowledge, our inner internet - with mistakes included - and we feed it through getting correct and right information that is practical, like this you tube channel.
I discovered that trauma in childhood creates Brain injury - and our brain injury determines thoughts - it defaults to these two ways:
1) being stuck - non movement, not taking action, seeking solution to unsolvable, being obsessed
2) pessimistic negative outlook, catastrophizing that feeds the immobility.
I realized that my fears, when I am triggered and when I have flashbacks (past events where I was embarrassed and felt cornered, situations where I was vulnerable: I could not say no, express my boundaries and I had to be silent to others mocking me, blaming me, ordering me, pursuing me do things that I was afraid - which is plethora of them due to social anxiety) - that without being aware of it I respond in two ways automatically: don't move and engage in PureOCD and thinking I am disgusting, that situation is disgusting, that everything is black and hard and life is not worth of living: immobility & pessimism.
I see now that these are due to Brain injury. My brain defaults to these two modules of operation when I feel scared or disturbed.
I did not know this information. All the time I thought, I was convinced - that I must seek solution with those 2 orders programs playing out in my mind. It is like driving with your hand break on. And especially when I see other people who are not bothered by things, that I was labelled as over-sensitive convinced me that there is solution to my fears - but I could not resolve it. Even after I learned all the concepts about social anxiety, the intrusive thoughts lingered and got stuck to me like a leech.
Now, when I know this is due to Brain injury - it is like a river bend, when rain pours, it will go into the defaults - it will not stay on flat surface - so in the same manner, when I feel afraid, stressed and triggered - I go to these two hidden modes of operating: being stuck and negative perspective.
So with this knowledge - I can simply over-ride it. I can choose to focus on the new thing, without trying to solve my fears. I do not stop them, I do not try to resolve or think about intrusive thoughts, I simply move on- since I know my Super Ego will resolve things without me meddling into process by worrying and over-thinking. I understand that fears and uncomfortable emotions I feel are due to brain injury -I have this pessimism etched inside my brain and I can expect that toxic shame will try to exploit this through inner critic to think I am inept, that life is hard and I must shut up and self-censor myself (as one way of being stuck).
For people who struggle with social anxiety - you probably read official sources, for some unknown reason we are not being told these concepts, that I learned only through past year - even though I have been researching social anxiety since 1990s! Check this out:
- toxic shame (motor that keeps social anxiety going and it is actually hallucination)
- Polyvagal Theory (tells us what happens when we are afraid)
- immature ego defense mechanism (to realize what we are doing wrong)
- cognitive distortions (ways how we try to control the uncontrollable events and people)
- external referencing, external validation (we see others as Gods)
- Complex Trauma - CPTSD (programming from childhood that gives us triggers now)
- Flashbacks and imprinting (that influence our thinking and dysregulate us)
- fawning (response to fears in form of being obedient and self-censor)
- introjection (soaking up other's emotions so their reactions stuck at us like leech)
-amygdala hijacking, emotional hijacking (our fears take over the plane)
- ego-centrism (when we see events and people only from limited, skewed, one view)
- logical fallacies (we learn that there is no absolute truth, SAD believe only others are right)
- cognitive biases (we learn that we are aware only of limited input we expose ourselves)
- self worth and intrinsical values (we trust our gut and mistakes instead of rejecting it)
- scapegoating (we learn when someone tries to shut us up)
- gaslighting (we learn when someone tries to manipulate us)
- narcissistic injury (to learn why people are rude)
- trauma bonding (Stockholm syndrome is also social anxiety described)
- cognitive defusion (we learn not to take our thoughts as exclusive reality)
- PureOCD and intrusive thoughts (we learn our fears are actually thoughts stuck in a loop)
- thinking errors (we learn some thoughts are like virus code)
- inner shadow (we accept that we are ok even if we're dumb, make mistake, embarrassed)
- inferiority complex (we learn what makes us to fawn)
- narcissistic abuse (to learn about predators and external factor)
- emotional abuse (verbal abuse, psychological abuse)
- emotional dyregulation (we learn our symptoms are normal reaction to abnormal settings)
- Descartes Evil demon hypothesis (to let go of ego-centrism)
- Zoroastrianism (to learn to be authentic, honest and speak up the truth)
- Elephant in the room (we have ability to see it - this cause anxiety because we shut up)
- External factor (we realize we attract predators like moth to a flame because we're ok)
- Perfectionism (let go of our drive to serve and be obedient by making deliberate mistake)
- Codependency (we learn being dependent on others is addiction, not our whim)
- Action (we are defined by what we do, not what we say. Also, action is healthy)
- Ambiguity (we learn SAD is like being in vacuum - we try to hold on to people to get grip)
- Agreeableness (through Wu Wei we accept our need to fix others but with conditions)
- Wu Wei (we do not punish ourselves yet we let go our reactions to come naturally)
- Learned helplessness (we understand we grip onto others because of programming)
- Three Stages (to avoid allergy, Karen mode- we gather information before making move)
- Assertiveness (we speak up, voice out our concern without expecting others to change)
- Ebbinghaus Forgetting curve (whatever steps and instruction we get- we will default to our normal everyday mode - which may be brain injury)
- Brain injury (it is etched in our brain to be immobile, to freeze and to feel depressing so it determines our thoughts and decisions if left on auto-pilot. IT is up to us to take manual over-ride and be active and focus on purpose to our task, move on)
- Super Ego (it is conglomerate of all knowledge and information we learned, it is database how to act, how to discern right and wrong and we can use it as our guide, with mistakes included - as learning process. Instead of toxic shame as guide or external validation-other people opinion and their relentless unfair criticism, we use our intrinsical nuclear power plant inside us: Super ego)
This is why I find Jordan Peterson and people who quote Stocics without deeper investigation as very irritating, unfair and anxiety inducing - since they neglect the existence of wound inside us that holds power over our thinking process.
I learned as I said on another video - that indecision is a part of brain injury. Brain injury is the result of Complex Trauma - being exposed to relentless criticism and unfair blame and perfectionism during childhood.
I see that brain injury defaults my thinking into these two operational modes that are hidden, subconscious and automatic:
1) being stuck - physically and mentally. I focus on what someone said or did, I worry about it and try to find solution.
2) being pessimistic- having negative outlook and catastrohizing - that gives energy to being immobile and obsessed, ie being focused on one thing that bothers me.
I learned that there is no absolute truth. As you said "there is not good or bad choice" It is called Paradox of knowledge. And predators (manipulators, abusers, narcissists, emotional vampires, exploiters, users) use this fact in their advantage. They present themselves as pontificators and they toxically shame easy targets - people who are kind, silent, cooperative, who listen to authority obediently, who are friendly, normal and healthy - they exploit us by telling us that their truth is the ultimate truth and we are wrong. And if we say something, they get triggered due to narcissistic injury and cognitive dissonance ( being faced with another truth, facts and objectivity). We may get stuck because we believe that we must be obedient to authority, by repressing our knowledge, information and common sense - by listening Milgram Experiment and defaulting to manipulators that present themselves as guides and truth. Manipulators hate transparency and our weapon is being objective and sticking up to the facts. They hate this and they will become hysterical when faced with truth that is inconvenient for them.
Since absolute truth does not exist - this gives us approval and endorsement to make mistakes - as a way to learn and do different the next time. In the same time, this also gives us revelation that we can forgive other people for being jerks ,and not hold unrealistic, perfectionist standards against jerks - This does not mean abolishing their sins or not alarming them when they cross boundaries.
With these two information- brain injury and absolute truth paradox - we can manually over-ride being stuck. We take our decisions and actions in our hand - it may be cutting contact with jerks. It may be speaking up and voicing our opinion, being ready to conduct argument by peacefully leading it to solution. It may be changing task - job - goal by letting go obsession and our PureOCD focus on solving the unsolvable.
It may be doing mistakes deliberately. It may be taking action even when we feel afraid.
I can expect that I will have voices inside me that will tell me that I suck, that everyone will mock me, that I am failure and that nothing is worthwhile - but instead of bowing down to this thoughts - now I see them as etched brain injury, a mistake, an error inside my brain. And it is up to me to move on and be optimistic, since my brain can't do that.
Your video back in January was the start of revealing the hidden concepts that for some unknown reason are not available to the general public. These hidden concepts - would help me to make decisions in better and more intelligent manner if I knew about them - but for some unknown reason - nobody talks about them.
You were the pioneers that started to talk about them! Thank your for your message.
On topic,
External validation was amazing discovery for me because I realized it was the motor that kept my fawning and people pleasing default ways of dealing with people ongoing.
I realized that I do not trust my opinion, my mistakes, my knowledge and my experience and intuition - but instead I put opinion and decisions in other people hands. Including emotions - which leads to being easily hurt by other people who are angry and unhappy.
I learned about external validation in June this year. So I have been reading tons of books about people pleasing, about being too nice for your own good, about social anxiety and fears and HSP - but none of the sources talked about external referencing and external validation! It is almost as if it is a conspiracy to keep people enslaved and obeyed and silent :D
I was reading about social anxiety for decades - and there was never this crucial concept in understanding social anxiety, that you talk about - external validation.
For some strange reason we are not being told concepts, some of them you covered in your videos, perhaps someone will find them useful:
- toxic shame (motor that keeps social anxiety going and it is actually hallucination)
- Polyvagal Theory (tells us what happens when we are afraid)
- immature ego defense mechanism (to realize what we are doing wrong)
- cognitive distortions (ways how we try to control the uncontrollable events and people)
- external referencing, external validation (we see others as Gods)
- Complex Trauma - CPTSD (programming from childhood that gives us triggers now)
- Flashbacks and imprinting (that influence our thinking and dysregulate us)
- fawning (response to fears in form of being obedient and self-censor)
- introjection (soaking up other's emotions so their reactions stuck at us like leech)
-amygdala hijacking, emotional hijacking (our fears take over the plane)
- ego-centrism (when we see events and people only from limited, skewed, one view)
- logical fallacies (we learn that there is no absolute truth, SAD - social anxiety disorder- believe only others are right)
- cognitive biases (we learn that we are aware only of limited input we expose ourselves)
- self worth and intrinsical values (we trust our gut and mistakes instead of rejecting it)
- scapegoating (we learn when someone tries to shut us up)
- gaslighting (we learn when someone tries to manipulate us)
- narcissistic injury (to learn why people are rude)
- trauma bonding (Stockholm syndrome is also social anxiety described)
- cognitive defusion (we learn not to take our thoughts as exclusive reality)
- PureOCD and intrusive thoughts (we learn our fears are actually thoughts stuck in a loop)
- thinking errors (we learn some thoughts are like virus code)
- inner shadow (we accept that we are ok even if we're dumb, make mistake, embarrassed)
- inferiority complex (we learn what makes us to fawn)
- narcissistic abuse (to learn about predators and external factor)
- emotional abuse (verbal abuse, psychological abuse)
- emotional dyregulation (we learn our symptoms are normal reaction to abnormal settings)
- Descartes Evil demon hypothesis (to let go of ego-centrism)
- Zoroastrianism (to learn to be authentic, honest and speak up the truth)
- Elephant in the room (we have ability to see it - this cause anxiety because we shut up)
- External factor (we realize we attract predators like moth to a flame because we're ok)
- Perfectionism (let go of our drive to serve and be obedient by making deliberate mistake)
- Codependency (we learn being dependent on others is addiction, not our whim)
- Action (we are defined by what we do, not what we say. Also, action is healthy)
- Ambiguity (we learn SAD is like being in vacuum - we try to hold on to people to get grip)
- Agreeableness (through Wu Wei we accept our need to fix others but with conditions)
- Wu Wei (we do not punish ourselves yet we let go our reactions to come naturally)
- Learned helplessness (we understand we grip onto others because of programming)
- Three Stages (to avoid allergy, Karen mode- we gather information before making move)
- Assertiveness (we speak up, voice out our concern without expecting others to change)
- Ebbinghaus Forgetting curve (whatever steps and instruction we get- we will default to our normal everyday mode - which may be brain injury)
- Brain injury (it is etched in our brain to be immobile, to freeze and to feel depressing so it determines our thoughts and decisions if left on auto-pilot. IT is up to us to take manual over-ride and be active and focus on purpose to our task, move on)
- Super Ego (it is conglomerate of all knowledge and information we learned, it is database how to act, how to discern right and wrong and we can use it as our guide, with mistakes included - as learning process. Instead of toxic shame as guide or external validation-other people opinion and their relentless unfair criticism, we use our intrinsical nuclear power plant inside us: Super ego)
- Paradox of knowledge (there is no absolute truth. Predators exploit this through toxic shaming of easy targets: people who are nice, kind, silent, cooperative and who listen to authority - which may lead to Milgram experiment. Truth is that I am right and so are other people as long as we are not violent or unkind. Our honest mistakes are ok, we are not dumb, wrong for making unintentional mistakes)
As you said, there is no other way to overcome it but through action. But I think it is important to know what we are dealing here, psychologically speaking.
I was convinced that I overcome social anxiety and avoidance because I started to have regular job (and thus everyday contact with people) - but it is still inside and it actually just added new traumas and new triggers and intrusive thoughts that flashback to me when brain tries to scary me and engage me into thinking loop - PureOCD. That is social anxiety - not forcing myself to be around people.
I realized that Brain injury makes us default to two ways how our thoughts will be influenced by:
1) being stuck - non movement, being obsessed and focus on perceived danger, trying to resolve it in my head - not by actions
and
2) being pessimistic, having negative outlook and catastrophizing that gives energy to being immobile and stuck.
And being aware this is brain injury - it is up to us to get unstuck - manual over-ride, because our brain can't get out of rut, it has errors, and we have to help our brain to keep vehicle going. Brain injury is like going through life with hand-brake on. That is social anxiety. We try to solve it by thinking and worrying - but that is brain injury trying to solve social anxiety by tires rotating on ice or in the mud and it just spins the tires, not moving. It is trying, but it can't go - it is stuck. We got to move on deliberately, we can't wait on our brain to move on to next task and move focus away from our fears, intrusive thoughts.
There are YT videos of people by telling us that we overcome social anxiety by being deliberately weird in public spaces - but I would say that more realistic actions are like blowing your nose in public or twirling your shoelaces in public. OR wearing a hat or some visible accessory that may cause people to react. :D
For me personally, I found that learning psychological aspect, and gathering information about psychological concepts as very helpful:
- toxic shame (motor that keeps social anxiety going and it is actually hallucination)
- Polyvagal Theory (tells us what happens when we are afraid)
- immature ego defense mechanism (to realize what we are doing wrong)
- cognitive distortions (ways how we try to control the uncontrollable events and people)
- external referencing, external validation (we see others as Gods)
- Complex Trauma - CPTSD (programming from childhood that gives us triggers now)
- Flashbacks and imprinting (that influence our thinking and dysregulate us)
- fawning (response to fears in form of being obedient and self-censor)
- introjection (soaking up other's emotions so their reactions stuck at us like leech)
-amygdala hijacking, emotional hijacking (our fears take over the plane)
- ego-centrism (when we see events and people only from limited, skewed, one view)
- logical fallacies (we learn that there is no absolute truth, SAD - social anxiety disorder- believe only others are right)
- cognitive biases (we learn that we are aware only of limited input we expose ourselves)
- self worth and intrinsical values (we trust our gut and mistakes instead of rejecting it)
- scapegoating (we learn when someone tries to shut us up)
- gaslighting (we learn when someone tries to manipulate us)
- narcissistic injury (to learn why people are rude)
- trauma bonding (Stockholm syndrome is also social anxiety described)
- cognitive defusion (we learn not to take our thoughts as exclusive reality)
- PureOCD and intrusive thoughts (we learn our fears are actually thoughts stuck in a loop)
- thinking errors (we learn some thoughts are like virus code)
- inner shadow (we accept that we are ok even if we're dumb, make mistake, embarrassed)
- inferiority complex (we learn what makes us to fawn)
- narcissistic abuse (to learn about predators and external factor)
- emotional abuse (verbal abuse, psychological abuse)
- emotional dyregulation (we learn our symptoms are normal reaction to abnormal settings)
- Descartes Evil demon hypothesis (to let go of ego-centrism)
- Zoroastrianism (to learn to be authentic, honest and speak up the truth)
- Elephant in the room (we have ability to see it - this cause anxiety because we shut up)
- External factor (we realize we attract predators like moth to a flame because we're ok)
- Perfectionism (let go of our drive to serve and be obedient by making deliberate mistake)
- Codependency (we learn being dependent on others is addiction, not our whim)
- Action (we are defined by what we do, not what we say. Also, action is healthy)
- Ambiguity (we learn SAD is like being in vacuum - we try to hold on to people to get grip)
- Agreeableness (through Wu Wei we accept our need to fix others but with conditions)
- Wu Wei (we do not punish ourselves yet we let go our reactions to come naturally)
- Learned helplessness (we understand we grip onto others because of programming)
- Three Stages (to avoid allergy, Karen mode- we gather information before making move)
- Assertiveness (we speak up, voice out our concern without expecting others to change)
- Ebbinghaus Forgetting curve (whatever steps and instruction we get- we will default to our normal everyday mode - which may be brain injury)
- Brain injury (it is etched in our brain to be immobile, to freeze and to feel depressing so it determines our thoughts and decisions if left on auto-pilot. IT is up to us to take manual over-ride and be active and focus on purpose to our task, move on)
- Super Ego (it is conglomerate of all knowledge and information we learned, it is database how to act, how to discern right and wrong and we can use it as our guide, with mistakes included - as learning process. Instead of toxic shame as guide or external validation-other people opinion and their relentless unfair criticism, we use our intrinsical nuclear power plant inside us: Super ego)
- Paradox of knowledge (there is no absolute truth. Predators exploit this through toxic shaming of easy targets: people who are nice, kind, silent, cooperative and who listen to authority - which may lead to Milgram experiment. Truth is that I am right and so are other people as long as we are not violent or unkind. Our honest mistakes are ok, we are not dumb, wrong for making unintentional mistakes)
This is social anxiety. This voice inside that judge us - we will be damned if we do it, we will be damned if we don't do it.
This is because we are stuck. It is due to brain injury caused by Compex Trauma - being exposed as kids to relentless criticism and taking blame for things outside of our control and being exposed to adult hysteria, perfectionism and untreated mental illness by our environment. Now our brain is etched to get stuck - into thinking, obsessing how it will turn up, how will we come up, what will other people think, what if they notice, when they say something - it is interpreted by us as criticism and attack. Brain injury caused by CPTSD, it defaults our thinking patterns in two ways:
1) getting us stuck- non movement, being in loop, PureOCD, trying to solve it in our heads the unsolvable problems, events and people
and
2) being pessimist, having negative outlook, catastrophizing - which gives energy to our immobility. This is where toxic shame resides. Toxic shame activates our inner critic to attack us because due to brain injury - we see the world all black and unhappy.
And the solution once we realize our socially anxious brain has brain injury is that we take manual over-ride -
1) do it, be active, shift focus, make goals, jobs, tasks done that are not related to our obsession
and
2) being optimistic on force - deliberately - since our brain is unable to to this on its own due to brain injury. Brain injury is like being stuck on ice or in the mud and your vehicle's tire just keep spinning by staying stuck in one place - it can't move on. We got to do it ourselves.
When we are not aware of brain injury - we focus on other people - their emotions, reactions, their opinions, their possible criticism - as our source of moving on - our actions depend on them, how they react, talk, behave, act. This is called external referencing and external validation, Stockholm Syndrome and trauma bonding.
Instead - it is up to us - to take our own opinion, trust our guts, instinct, our inside knowledge - information that we gathered from all sources- we let our SuperEgo to decide, instead of toxic shame.
You got it all wrong :D
This what you said is repressing, it is immature ego defense mechanism.
You just convinced yourself that you don't care.
You actually set yourself up for build up anger that may one days explode, since you don't give it vent out.
Wu Wei is not about not minding what happens.
It is about accepting intrusive thoughts and not reacting on them - as PureOCD techniques are telling us.
It is about accepting our dark shadow, our dark shadow is not violence and things that scare us - dark shadow is accepting us being boring, smelly, ugly, disgusting, stupid, dumb, weird, cheap, poor, undone, mistaken, idiotic... and in the same time to use what we accepted to change it - when we are ready to change. so:
it is not about belittling us. it is not about being impatient with ourselves.
In the same time - we will start to see other people with more kindness, understanding and respect.
That's what Wu Wei is about.
It is not about ego-centrism, isolation, pretending I see nothing, not being bothered by anything I do not like.
Wu Wei is about relieving the pressure of perfectionism from our back - while in the same time we stay in the action, we still go after our goals, needs, urges - even is we make mistake and start to do it in dysfunctional way. We are just patient with ourselves. That's what Wu Wei is all about.
Now your philosophy of "I don't mind what happens" will not work - we all have Super Ego. This means, we have strong sense of right or wrong. When we suppress this and when we repress this (as either quick and wrong solution to deal with problems OR as programmed CPTDS trauma response to relentless criticism from untreated mentally ill hysterical person) - we will create brain injury.
Our brain will default to this two ways of thinking patterns:
1) being stuck - being in a loop, trying to solve people, events and issues in our head that are not worthwhile or are unsolvable
and
2) becoming pessimistic, seeing potential danger in everything - since being stuck, we allow other people to guide us, we base our opinions on other people, since we are blocked to listen to our intristical values inside our SuperEgo to guide us... and we'll develop strong negative outlook that life is digusting, that eveything is hard and impossible and nothing is worthwhile.
In short, we will become mentally ill.
Brain injury is being etched into thinking these two main patterns - being stuck and negative.
The solution in brain injury case is to make manual over ride - to take action and to be optimistic on purpose, even though every inch of our brain is telling us the otherwise (due to brain injury).
Now Wu Wei comes into play as a way that we adopt our natural reaction.
Since brain injury tells us: 1) don't move, hide, isolate and think in loop to solve issues - we got to realize this is not natural for us. This is ingrained programming inside our brain- it is external force that was acted against our brain. So we have to take matters in our hands and do what is natural: being in motion, talk with people, being honest, being authentic, warn alarm and alert people who are rude and who cross our boundaries.
If we say We don't care - this is brain injury, external programming, caused by childhood trauma by our narcissistic and mentally ill environment.
Also
2) since brain injury influences our thinking patterns by producing negative perspective - this is not normal, regular and how brain works . this was also damages by Complex Trauma on our brain - so Wu Wei in this case is to take manual over-ride and to: smile, expect good and rejoice, to force ourselves to take our focus off from negative and borderline people and sources, away from drama.
Your philosophy by not caring if we are stuck with drama making people - will make us feeling small, inferior and we will endure abuse - this is mental illness.
Wu wei - is being natural human, what we were before trauma occurred - being among people, socializing, drinking coffee in nice restaurant by the sea, walking near the lake or sea, reading a good book - so we do care, Wu wei is not about not caring - it is about natural care, what is healthy and good for us and other people.
She tried.
it is brain injury.
People who struggle with social anxiety have underwent traumatic experience in their childhood - and not their brain is etched into two main modes of operation and thinking process:
1) being stuck - loop in trying to solve unsolvable issues with events, people and situations
and
2) being negative and catastrophizing.
Many people are not aware of this default way of thinking that is the result of Complex Trauma. In our childhood when we are exposed to adult hysteria, their untreated mental illness, their relentless ongoing criticism and nagging of our every single move being labeled as mistake and end of the world tyranny - with time, our brain is etched with brain injury.
This means, even when people with brain injury "try" - their brain will default back to these basic errors - due to brain injury: being stuck and being pessimist.
The solution is surprisingly very easy: we just take manual over-ride.
We take action and we decide to be optimist by force, no matter what our every single cell inside tells us - due to brain injury.
When we are not aware of brain injury - we think that we have control in our thinking, that we can solve our fears, panic, that somehow we can find solution and understanding - but this urge to find something that cannot be found is brain injury itself - by keeping us in prison of our own mind, being stuck.
We compare ourselves with other people -we see other people go with their lives and we think we can do the same - but we are not aware that our hand break is on, that we are stuck in mud and that our vehicle tires are not moving they are stuck in one place. We hit the gas, we put our hands on the wheel - but nothing is moving -we are stuck and we don't know why.
No one told us that we have to get out of car and push it.
No one told us that our brain has error and it is up to us to push it - since the brain is unable to do it on it's own.
This is the danger of groupthink and external referencing - because we look at other people and compare with others- while in truth we are different and we need to perform differently than we are shown in our childhood, in our media, in our environment, among peers. We look at others and we think we must smile in order to be happy. We look others and we think we must take alcohol (or worse toxins) or hurt others by mocking them because others are doing it, so we think this must be normal. We look at others who are narcissistic and have inferiority issues so they value money and spending money on trash to show off to others that they are valued better - and we think this is normal and we have to copy this.
Wu Wei tells us that we stick to our values no matter what other people complain, nag, mock or criticize.
Once we realize we have brain injury that cause us to care what other people think - it is super easy to dismiss external referencing and help our brain to get our of rut by doing action (no matter what that may entail - action does not have to be necessarily physical) and be optimistic.
We focus on better things, we press skip and play on. We turn our focus on our task, goals, jobs to be done, to follow our common sense - that is Wu Wei.
Correct! You got it!
I call this External factor,
manipulators, exploiters, users, abuser, emotional vampires, predators, borderliners, narcissists - are influencing us through shaming us and we are not aware - in our eyes from our perspective it looks like normal - it is normal that other people correct us and tell us what to do, what to think and how to act. And that is not Wu Wei - because when we base our opinions, actions and thinking on external validation and external referencing - we don't do what is natural to us - we shape ourselves to other people and their instructions that are usually hidden manipulation.
Wu Wei - therefore surprisingly and shockingly from peaceful and tranquil and non movement concept grows into being radical - because it is about us being authentic, speaking the truth and being honest: and
Other people hate truth. The truth is causing them to feel cognitive dissonance which is painful to them, and it cause narcissistic injury in mentally ill people who are aggressive.
3 weeks later and I found yet another great discovery that might help others and which explains why we act in fear - and why other people can't understand our anxiety and panic:
It is Brain injury concept.
In our childhood we were exposed to trauma, as I said, Complex trauma - we were exposed to unhealthy environment that belittle us and was criticizing us every minute, about every mistake, we were exposed to adult hysteria and mentally ill people who walked around untreated.
This created brain injury inside our brain. It is etched inside our brain.
The ingrained injury defaults all our thinking in two main patterns:
1) being stuck - not moving, trying to solve issues, situations and people and problems in our head - it is PureOCD, thinking trap - we think we must and we can solve the unsolvable.
and
2) being pessimistic and having negative outlook. This catastrophizing is giving energy for us to stay stuck.
So our thinking process is influenced by our brain injury. And to us it appears normal - because this is how we operate and solve world problems since our childhood - by trying to fix other people, to control them through cognitive distortions and our pessimism is replaying our childhood trauma tyranny - that we will never be good enough and that we suck. So we are stuck and suck. :D
The solution is very easy!
We got to take matter in our hands. We have to unlock the stuck hand brake that is turned on, locked on - we got to unlock it. It is manual over-ride. Our brain cannot do this on its own, we got to push it out of rut.
We do this by doing the opposite from trauma injury:
1) we do action, we move, we move focus from our fears, we speak up, we are authentic and do not self-censor ourself. Self-censorship and mutism is a form of being stuck. We get to our tasks, jobs, goals and dreams - not as away to repress our feelings, but to as a way to get us on the road again. This means, if we speak up to abuser, if the bully does not listen to us - we move on. We don't wait for them, we don't care for their approval or validation. We cut contact if possible.
and
2) we are optimistic by force. We force ourselves to look positively - not as a toxic positivity - but as natural way that we would have if we did not have brain injury.
Without this Brain injury information - we would think that there is something that needs to be scratched and we scratch ourselves until we bleed. We don't move focus on other things, on living - we are stuck in solving and trying to find the best solution - for things that happened in the past. Toxic shame in the same time through negative outlook is sending us pictures and scenes from the past where we have been embarrassed and where we fail - and we can't protest it because it happened - we see it as truth - as proof that we suck. Now as brain injury information - we can observe this phenomena as phenomena - it is our brain having injury that is causing these intrusive thoughts of anxiety and fears. IT is not real. IT is not healthy. It is not coming from our brain - it is coming from our brain being stuck in a wound caused by external factor in our childhood. Our fears, anxieties, our intrusive thoughts that we simply cannot shake off, our toxic shame, wave of guilt, veil of deceit that appear real to us - is all a brain having been injured.
And our brain cannot solve it. IT is stuck. We got to do manual over-ride.
Move on, move focus, get tasks goals dreams done. Focus on good people who we take for granted instead of being focused on jerks trying to please them and solve their anger through people pleasing and fawning to them. Cut contact or minimize contact with them - or even better - tell them in their face what they are doing. Narcissists hate transparency, facts and objectivity.
We must help our brain that is stuck due to brain injury.
Brain will try to help us by producing worry and anxiety - but this is attempt of the brain to get onto road again. it is similar when we frantically try to get the car going that is stuck in the mud or on ice - the wheel tires only move on place - it is stuck. Without this information, we try to solve inside out head the problems that the brain is producing. The brain will produce more and more problems to solve because normal brain works like that - this is how early humans survived the predators.
And when brain is stuck due to brain injury - it will produce unhelpful anxiety and intrusive thoughts - so we get to help our brain to get out of spinning wheel loop.
Take action, move, be outdoor, make friendships, get your tasks done, stop looking at the danger and stop being focused on what scare us. Expect that we will feel disgust and pessimism - this is brain injury - help to overcome it by becoming happy by force, being optimistic in realistic way - we acknowledge our good things that we done and fears that we faces, we don't take it for granted.
Instead - I would address why person feels fears and from where does that come from - usually it is from dysfunctional childhood (Complex Trauma and brain injury) where we were exposed to relentless criticism by our mentally ill environment that never seek therapy and perfectionism and taking blame for any mistake as if it is the end of the universe.
With that being said, professors who judge students by their status are psychopaths and mentally ill people. Just because they got their degree does not make them correct or authority. Instead of changing ourselves, I would take course of Wu Wei, being honest, authentic and telling speaking the truth, whatever and however it comes out. Forcing strength does not work in human mind - it only has the opposite effect of more anxiety.
For tomorrow we got to work for society where psychopaths will be excluded from managerial positions - and away from people. As today's generation is fighting against the psychopaths through Me too movement - so tomorrow we got to initiate and build the society where psychopaths test will be mandatory for jobs. Rotten apple will spoil the healthy ones. That is the only way to heal society from mental illness, crime and predators.
Brain injury due to Complex Trauma - being exposed to relentless criticism while growing up and expecting perfection and always taking blame and shame - creates brain injury in two ways:
1) we get stuck - non movement, isolation and stuck in a loop - focusing on fear and trying to solve the perceived danger that brain is keep on pumping
and
2) negative and pessimistic outlook. We catastrophize and then this gives energy for our immobility.
Therefore, solution is surprisingly easy:
1) we get unstuck by our decisions, we get active, we shift our focus, we get on tasks that need to be done, job to do, goals and dreams. We warn, alarm and alert abusive person about their action, we speak out, voice out the elephant in the room. (Brain injury is mutism and inactivity).
and
2) we get optimistic by force. Since we know our brain injury will influence our thinking and conclusions - we take manual over-ride and decide to be happy. Not to be confused with toxic positivity, it is not about ignoring, suppressing and denying hurt and pain.
I learned about PureOCD techniques to ignore intrusive thoughts in 2015 - but very soon I had trouble with shaking off the intrusive thoughts, something that came with flashbacks and triggers - I simply could not pull on the other side, as suggested by Mark Freeman videos about intrusive thoughts. Some thoughts that repeated situations where I was embarrassed or mocked or criticized stuck with me like a leech.
I think it is because I was not aware of brain injury. We can't trick our brain. Our cortex brain has fantastic niche for detail and we can't convince ourselves that we can stop intrusive thoughts by changing focus - without a valid reason. This is why CBT is not working. Brain will interpret these trials to be strong and to change on force as a signal that there is something seriously wrong - and it will assign inspection team to amygdala - and once in amygdala, emotional hijacking occurs and of course - some thoughts stuck on us like a leech and we can't shake them off (our fears, anxiety and panic).
Enter brain injury concept.
Now cortex brain has a valid explanation what is going on. Why we keep on worrying and why are we so disgusted by life - it is because brain is etched with default thinking style - being stuck and life sucks -
and it is our duty to help our brain out of the rut, we have a task to help our brain to get manual over-ride. It is like being stuck on an ice and you keep pressing gas - but the car wheel tires move at the same space without movement. Or being stuck in a mud - our brain injury cause our thinking style to get stuck and produce seeing a world as black, cold place not worth living in.
With brain injury, now cortex brain can remove the amygdala from picture, and it can give our calm cortex thinking idea finding and problem solving part of brain a chance to get the brain out of rut.
👍
I had big breakthrough about brain injury - and learned a totally new concept "moral injury" (that btw is connected with medical staff so you might find it interesting concept).
I learned that narcissists cause brain damage in the past few months, I knew this information, but I finally got realization that -- certain our dysfunctional behaviour - such as self abandonment, codependency - is the default way that our brain clings and rush onto because there is an etch in our brain to default our thinking process to these unhelpful ways.
The general pattern for brain injury caused by Complex Trauma is being stuck in a loop and having negative pessimistic outlook on life.
And when I understand this concept, by knowing this information - it is up to us to help the brain to get unstuck - by not listening to our fears - yet instead doing our goals, moving focus away from perceived danger and obsession, move along, shift focus, doing task and jobs that need to be done that are not related to resolving trauma and incidents from the past and things, events and people in my head, that can never be resolved.
If we look at our wounds as something abstract - our cortex brain signals amygdala to deal with it - and we get stuck in brain injury. But if we know there is brain injury, a wound that is etched inside our brain - and no matter what we do - it will default to the same trauma response - then this is framing different - we know it is up to us to get well. Now the default way to get stuck is no longer mysterious and difficult - now it is easy - we simply have to take manual over-ride and get unstuck. If we get stuck and catastrophize - now we know this is because of the etch inside our brain, brain injury. IT is not because it is difficult, it is the etch, defaulting to trauma injury. Therefore, I do not have to engage in intrusive thoughts because I know the feeling and urge that I am feeling are my brain being stuck in a rut - and I can ignore it and move on, move focus on tasks, goals, dreams... If there is no objective, real and current drama to be solved - it is all inside my brain, and it appears as real as if I have to resolve it. Without brain injury concept, I would engage in intrusive thoughts and trying to resolve issues that pop up to my mind, through flashbacks and triggers and imprint of trauma.
Hope this helps to someone who can't shake off the intrusive thoughts no matter what they did. It is up to us to help the brain to get back on the road again, to take action and move on, and to be optimistic on force - since our brain is not able to this healthy movement on its own (due to brain injury).
Some people were exposed to narcissistic emotional abuse in their childhood, to relentless criticism when they were kids. They developed Complex Trauma and they have brain injury.
Now as adults their thinking process defaults to these two patterns of thinking:
1) being stuck in a loop, immobility, not moving, not taking action, trying to resolve perceived danger
2) being negative, pessimist outlook on life and catastrophizing. This gives energy to stay immobile.
So you can with brain injury be inspired and motivated, you can follow specific steps and instructions, you can have revelations (but due to Ebbinhaus Forgetting curve you forget it) -and your thinking process will default back to two main patterns of brain injury (moral injury).
Without taking this concept - we try to resolve intrusive thoughts and we are unable to shift our focus, because it comes natural to us to mold our thinking process in accordance to brain injury. It will default to being stuck and feeling like the life is black and difficult, like a rain that downpours to gravel.
And people with this brain injury are actually the ones who are trying to resolve their wound and their life that is stuck - and they listen to motivators, psychologist - but they can't move on - because they are not aware of this brain injury.
Once we are aware of brain injury concept - it is easy to get out of the rut - we realize we need to help our brain to get unstuck:
1) shift our focus on task, job, goals, dreams that needs to be done, being active, not fighting with intrusive thoughts or trying to repress them, we simply shift focus on action along with our inner injury and our inner wounds, we allow them to be there. But we help our brain to focus on new things that we deliberately do.
and
2) we get optimistic on force, even when we don't feel like it - because we know that catastrophizing is stemming from the wound, injury, etching in our brain - it is not reality that appears as puzzle to resolve and ponder about.
This brain injury is missing link to all motivational and psychology instructions. Without it, our brain will still be activated to go to amygdala to resolve the unsolvable. We can't trick our brain, it is powerful - and with brain injury it will get stuck- the same way as a car gets stuck on ice or in the mud - the wheel tires will keep on moving, we will try to go ahead, but default rut is keeping the car stuck. It is up to us to get out of the car and push the car. It is about manual over-ride to get un-stuck.
My intrusive thoughts are usually from the situations where I was vulnerable - or potential situations where I can be vulnerable: there is some task to be done but I lack knowledge and experience to do it perfectly and then there is someone who is mocking me or assaulting me because I am not perfect and they order me to do things that I can't do due to additional social anxiety fears.
I learned this is due to brain injury - being exposed to relentless criticism in childhood from people who were mentally ill and never seek treatment, who blamed me for everything and expected perfectionism, it was being exposed to adult hysteria and being unable to defend yourself either with words or mentally - knowing it is not my fault for their narcissistic and emotional and psychological abuse.
Now this brain injury (moral injury) repeating itself by defaulting to two main patterns:
1) being stuck, not moving, PureOCD loop trying to solve the unsolvable, fixing other people when they are angry to avoid them exploding
and
2) having pessimistic outlook that everything is life is hard and not worthwhile living.
This injury is not my fault and I can observe it as my brain getting stuck in the rut - influencing my thought process - and it is up to me to get it unstuck and be optimistic on force, since my brain is unable to do it automatically on its own.
Mine are related to social anxiety and avoidance issues as temporary/permanent solution.
MY intrusive thoughts are related to situations where something is expected of me to perform, but I lack knowledge, experience to do it perfectly, or being forced to face my social anxiety fears - and with someone other observing me and mocking me or being hysterical because I made mistake or I can't do it perfectly.
I learned this is connected to Complex Trauma - being exposed to relentless criticism when I was kid, being exposed to adult hysteria, narcissistic abuse, mentally ill environment that was never treated.
so, "Do the images keep you safe" - they spring up as a warning to me, that I remember that there are people out there who will throw temper tantrum - so I have to be prepared for them, and I get stuck in thinking loop. I also transform these flashbacks and triggers into fawning as natural response - so that other person will not be as much rude and violent if I obey their commands and take their abuse and temper tantrum silently without my protest.
So the images come up to program me to be people pleaser. This is programming from dysfunctional childhood to be slave to others.
I realized that this is due to brain injury. My brain defaults to two patterns that influence my thinking:
1) being stuck, trying to PureOCD solve the unsolvable and not taking action
and
2) being negative, pessimist and this catastrophizing gives energy to immobility.
So whatever I do, no matter what advice I take, step by step instructions and motivation - my brain will default to these two patterns - because of brain injury (moral injury).
And this is not my fault, brain simply gets stuck like a vehicle on ice or tires moving at place while stuck in a mud.
So it is up to me to take manual over-ride.
This is suprisingly easy solution to brain injury:
it is about expecting that my brain will default to being stuck and that world is black and non-worthable, so I get matter in my hand because brain needs my help to unstuck:
1) by taking action, move focus from my perceived danger, shift onto job, task, goals, dreams that I have to do, it is about acknowledging intrusive thoughts but not fighting them, not engaging with them - simply get un-zoomed and move on to my tasks.
and
2) being optimistic on force - even when I don't believe in it due to brain injury. I have to turn on xmas lights - since my brain is not able to do it on its own, as healthy population can. I am not talkin about toxic positivity - ignoring the negative and repressing it by affirmations. IT is more like Stockdale paradox - accepting brutal facts but still being positive no matter what fears play out in my head.
Without brain injury concept - I would not believe that I can do anything. Now I know it is up to me, I have to help my brain to get unstuck. Without brain injury concept - CBT, motivators and psychologist would try to convince the target that they must be strong and they must switch their thinking onto well-being - but our brain is powerful nuclear plant, it cannot be tricked. It will not believe it - because the brain will interpret this as alarm and signal to delegate amygdala to deal with something that is catastrpohically wrong - and this is why CBT, motivators and advice from people like Jordan Peterson (through oversimplifications and biases) actually have adverse and counter-effect on the individual.
With brain injury concept we relieve our amygdala to deal with problem solving, and we realize that this worry and intrusive thoughts and feeling of gloom will never go away - because the brain is etched to trauma injury - it will always default back to being stuck and that everything suck - as autopilot and automatic response to people, events and everyday situations.
When we know that every minute our brain injury will influence our thinking process by producing stuck pattern and negativity - we know it is up to me to help my brain out. It is like getting out of the car (instead of pressing the gas) and pushing the car to get out of ditch. Once we shift focus on next task, on something that is not imaginary, to some job that we forgot to do due to pureOCD, we will help our brain to focus on new thing - and brain can't do this on its own, like "normal" people brain functions.
👍
Yeah, that is moral injury;
"Moral injury refers to an injury to an individual's moral conscience and values resulting from an act of perceived moral transgression, which produces profound emotional guilt and shame, and in some cases also a sense of betrayal, anger and profound "moral disorientation". Wikipedia"
"Just because you set boundaries does not mean you have any right to control anyone."
👍
Yep, we try to control other people - through cognitive distortions.
"People may cross your boundaries intentionally or unintentionally some people are simply inconsiderate but there are also people who have no idea they have crossed your boundaries. In either case if you don't set your boundaries clear and just let people cross them you will definitely feel like your life is depleted or exploited. Taken advantage, feeling unworthy. "
That is true,
but there are psychopaths out there, narcissists - who can't take no for answer, it is either their way or highway. They don't listen, they throw their unreasonable and questionable demands, throw temper tantrum - and walk away. Ok this is fine if you can change your job and find another one. But when you can't you are forced to obey and serve sociopaths- and this is where setting boundaries become real, tangible problem. Sometimes you can't walk away if you don't have shelter or finances to support yourself - without being homeless as alternative.
😕
I see setting boundaries as alarm and alert system. It doesn't have to be through outrage and explosion - it comes down simply to stating the truth, being objective and sticking to facts and social etiquette. Voicing out the elephant in the room. Not to self-censor myself.
But as I said - there are people out there who turn their back and they do not want to cooperate and listen.
Unfortunately, I did not find the answer to this problem - when you don't have alternative in a form of to simply walk away.
In this case, I have no answer- except that you set your goal one day to leave manipulator and toxic environment - setting it as a goal in the future.
When all of you have fun at parties and enjoying your friends and life, this is going on in our heads. We see it in black and white and worst case scenario playing out, along with depressing tone that nothing will be ok.
Yeah, it seems like we are all in Squid Game - or some kind of game level play. We get stuck at some level - we are forced to work on it to make it work so we can go onto the next level, so life forces us to work on our current level - whether we like it or not, whether we are prepared or not, whether we want it or not.
We are forced to make decisions undone, with lack of knowledge, without experience - and in the same time we are expected by society and our inner critic to perform perfectly and without mistakes.
I see these expectations as problem of its own that needs to be investigated, overcame, and rejected as virus when our and other people's expectations become unrealistic and unreasonable.
For people who underwent dysfunctional childhood, these expectation are etched as brain injury due to relentless criticism and emotional abuse - and now the brain will default to negative thinking and being stuck in a loop of looking for danger and trying to fix it. For people who struggle with intrusive thoughts- observe your urge to worry as etch in your brain, default that was programmed us to solve the unsolvable - and then solution is very simply - it is up to our will power to move on, change focus and be active and optimistic on force, no matter what our scary thoughts try to convince us.
When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change. - Max Planck
Last night I awakened at 3am. Usually I would start to engage with my thoughts of worry and what happened in the past, past incidents and possible future ones - and I remembered this brain injury concept - and I applied it.
I understand now that these worries and anxieties will come up, I understand that it is due to brain injury, being exposed to relentless criticism, moral injury, shutting up to unfair treatment and never standing up for myself - so I have now this injury etched inside me that will produce anxiety.
So I followed my own advice - and I decided since I can't do anything about that - to focus on what is at hand -
it was 3am, I've suppose to sleep - so instead of turning on my notepad and reading news and twitter feed - I lay, I closed my eyes and pretended to sleep. Thoughts were still there. Worries still there - but I decided not to stop them, not to think about them, only on task at hand - to sleep...
And I fell asleep.
This brain injury concept works.
I think this is the solution to social anxiety and CPTSD.
Yep, these are concept that I was missing - SuperEgo as depository of my own intrinsical values and information that I need when I am confused and not knowing what to do - even if it turns out to be mistake; as oppose to people pleasing external referencing pattern that I learned to lean - whenever there was ambiguity, to look for other people approval and guidance.
Also I see brain injury/moral injury concept as something that works as concept because it validates my default thinking that is negative/pessimism and prone to stuckness. With brain injury concept I can give my mind the reason why I am stuck with kindness and love that I was lacking in childhood.
This is why orders and general commands do not work- because of missing love element, compassion and validation of pain. The brain will reject if someone says "Just get over it" - since this cold statement no matter how true, does not actually validate the pain. Validation of pain is missing element here.
I think this is why motivators and many psychologist fail to help their targets, they can't connect with target's subconscious and conscious mind with the reason why would person think positively.
The brain injury concept fits the missing puzzle perfectly. It both validates the pain and past trauma and in the same time it encourages the individual to move, to take action and to change focus from perceived dangers that keeps him stuck.
To get out of this rut, from being immobile - we got to understand this is happening due to etching in our brain - and our will power is needed. We got to help our brain to get unstuck and move on. To change focus from our obsessions, to make jobs, tasks that needs to be done but we ignored them because we worried about unimportant things or things from long time ago. Our brain will always default to negativity and being focused on pain - but we need to help our brain to move on with our lives. For a person who shut up and self-censor in order to people please others and seek external validation - being stuck in codependency - this simply means we help our brain and do the movement: voice out the elephant in the room, talk back, stand up for ourselves, be active. Not in hysterical way, simply as talking out, alarm and alert system when someone is rude, by not attacking them. If we are stuck with anger and rage - it would mean to state our words calmly in protocol manner, understanding that other people have their hidden crosses and wounds that we can't see - but this does not abolish them that we must be quiet and endure their abuse.
With brain injury concept we validate our pain inside and in the same time we see our will power as important, our decisions as important factor - that will lead us to make our goals, jobs, tasks, dreams working on instead of being stuck in habitual obsessive worry that stems from moral injury etched inside our brain.
This way, we won't be slaves to other people - what they do, what they say, how they react - they will no longer activate our inner critic to belittle us, nor our intrusive thoughts to take over our judgement and thinking process. We understand we will always be prone to worry and see everything as black due to this moral injury ingrained in our brain, PTSD from Complex trauma events when we were growing up.
Now, we simply help our brain to get unstuck and to be positive on force, not in toxic positivity manner - more like Stockdale paradox: accepting brutal facts but not losing faith and moving on no matter what - movement not only physical, but mental one, too - in our minds. It's time to move on.
I would be careful with such statement.
This can be categorized under Fantasy Freedom - Freedom of salvation.
IF you went the abuse in your childhood - everything will be trigger to you as adult. All the time. 24/7. It can be severe, it can be mild, it can be dim. But it is always present - hyperalertness, hypervigilance.
Unfortunately, we can't trick our brain. Even with truth! Truth that comes with condition is not truth. Our SuperEgo is powerful. Our brain has injury. We have to help our brain to get in contact with our intristical values, knowledge and database - including the mistakes instead of being stuck with worry loop. This conditional truth is detrimental for traumatized brain already bruised by the same kind of conditional truths in its childhood.
This is the common mistake for psychologists, motivators and friends who mean well. Your best wishes can have counter-productive effect. This is why:
When you make a statement like "You will heal IF - insert random condition" - you are actually signalling your subconsciousness two detrimental messages:
1) There is something horrible wrong where I am at this moment
and
2) I must undertake colossal personality and location change in order to heal.
Brain injury is like hypnosis - so we have to talk in the same way as hypnosis. This means being brutally honest with the present conditions around us, not about imaginary future. Our brain clings on present surroundings - it rejects future unknown and obscure and non defined concepts and locations.
Some people are stuck with unhealthy environment - and they know they must move on, but they can't for whatever reason (Maslow needs - job, security, finances, shelter, service, resources etc). So they are stuck with their surroundings. Then your honest and friendly statement is particularly detrimental and has counter-effect.
So, even if you are correct, the individual is stuck in the present with current problem and needs help right now - not when certain unknown and abstract future is resolved.
This also signals to me that you don't understand the brain injury concept.
Brain injury means that we have etching in our brain that defaults our thinking in two operational modes:
1) making us stuck, non movement, resolving perceived danger, not being aware of everything around - it is being obsessed on current imaginary or real issue - usually it is imaginary. It is like being stuck in mud and you try to spin wheel to move - but you keep in one place.
and
2) being pessimistic and having negative outlook. This black outlook gives energy to immobility.
Solution is very easy - to step out of the car and give it a push and in the same time to be optimistic on force.
You understand that your brain due to injury will default back to obsessions, worry and resolving the uncontrollable, trying to fix others and control others plus having catastrophizing as perspective. You understand that this will always be brain automatic response, auto-pilot and we - don't engage with it.
Our will power, our thoughts- we take manual over-ride - and use our will and thoughts to - get unstuck. It means the opposite from brain injury mode: getting focused on other goals, task, jobs, dreams that need to be done but are otherwise overlooked and forgotten due to our default worries and pessimism.
This means, we know our brain is unable to function normally and we help it. We help our brain to get unstuck.
Your advice "You will heal one day" - does not help, it adds up to stuckness - you put your brain in a mode that there is ambiguous and unknown danger and you have to resolve this to get ambiguous and unknown future. Instead - you deal with life and situations as they come up. You are not focused on if, you are not focused on conditions and goalposts that our fears set up.
This means - if you awake at 3am, you do not default to reading news on tablet, on worrying, - instead you help your brain: you know that it is 3 am, that the current state is to sleep - so you close your eyes and pretend you are sleeping. Your brain will protest. It will come up with worries and fears - but you do not fight it, you do not engage in it - you do not get stuck in loop of intrusive thoughts - you know your goals is to sleep - so you just lay in your bed with your eyes closed. This way you help your brain to do "normal" goal that you are suppose to do. It is because you know you have brain injury, it is not something you must get rid of in the uncertain future.
When you say someone that your brain will heal if you are in safe environment - you can't trick your brain. Brain will know that it never heard, seen or witnessed healed people. Brain will reject this information as myth and white lie - and then default back to worry and obsessive intrusive thoughts and trying to resolve unknown danger.
With brain injury concept we are being brutally honest with our brain and ourselves. We know this is ingrained conditioned - that was not our fault. It is our duty to help our brain to get walking again to get up, to get on your feet.
Instead of giving it conditions, reprimands - the same lack of love that created this trauma - we show that we love our brain and we want to help it. We do not tell our brain that we find it disgusting now, and we will love it in some unknown fantasy future - we embrace our brain and we truly want to help it to be healed - by nudging it up with our willingness and our decisions to move focus from worrying.
For me, these helpful concepts were revealing and for some unknown reason these are not found in media or everday resources:
- toxic shame (motor that keeps social anxiety going and it is actually hallucination)
- Polyvagal Theory (tells us what happens when we are afraid)
- immature ego defense mechanism (to realize what we are doing wrong)
- cognitive distortions (ways how we try to control the uncontrollable events and people)
- external referencing, external validation (we see others as Gods)
- Complex Trauma - CPTSD (programming from childhood that gives us triggers now)
- Flashbacks and imprinting (that influence our thinking and dysregulate us)
- fawning (response to fears in form of being obedient and self-censor)
- introjection (soaking up other's emotions so their reactions stuck at us like leech)
-amygdala hijacking, emotional hijacking (our fears take over the plane)
- ego-centrism (when we see events and people only from limited, skewed, one view)
- logical fallacies (we learn that there is no absolute truth, SAD - social anxiety disorder- believe only others are right)
- cognitive biases (we learn that we are aware only of limited input we expose ourselves)
- self worth and intrinsical values (we trust our gut and mistakes instead of rejecting it)
- scapegoating (we learn when someone tries to shut us up)
- gaslighting (we learn when someone tries to manipulate us)
- narcissistic injury (to learn why people are rude)
- trauma bonding (Stockholm syndrome is also social anxiety described)
- cognitive defusion (we learn not to take our thoughts as exclusive reality)
- PureOCD and intrusive thoughts (we learn our fears are actually thoughts stuck in a loop)
- thinking errors (we learn some thoughts are like virus code)
- inner shadow (we accept that we are ok even if we're dumb, make mistake, embarrassed)
- inferiority complex (we learn what makes us to fawn)
- narcissistic abuse (to learn about predators and external factor)
- emotional abuse (verbal abuse, psychological abuse)
- emotional dyregulation (we learn our symptoms are normal reaction to abnormal settings)
- Descartes Evil demon hypothesis (to let go of ego-centrism)
- Zoroastrianism (to learn to be authentic, honest and speak up the truth)
- Elephant in the room (we have ability to see it - this cause anxiety because we shut up)
- External factor (we realize we attract predators like moth to a flame because we're ok)
- Perfectionism (let go of our drive to serve and be obedient by making deliberate mistake)
- Codependency (we learn being dependent on others is addiction, not our whim)
- Action (we are defined by what we do, not what we say. Also, action is healthy)
- Ambiguity (we learn SAD is like being in vacuum - we try to hold on to people to get grip)
- Agreeableness (through Wu Wei we accept our need to fix others but with conditions)
- Wu Wei (we do not punish ourselves yet we let go our reactions to come naturally)
- Learned helplessness (we understand we grip onto others because of programming)
- Three Stages (to avoid allergy, Karen mode- we gather information before making move)
- Assertiveness (we speak up, voice out our concern without expecting others to change)
- Ebbinghaus Forgetting curve (whatever steps and instruction we get- we will default to our normal everyday mode - which may be brain injury)
- Brain injury (it is etched in our brain to be immobile, to freeze and to feel depressing so it determines our thoughts and decisions if left on auto-pilot. IT is up to us to take manual over-ride and be active and focus on purpose to our task, move on)
- Super Ego (it is conglomerate of all knowledge and information we learned, it is database how to act, how to discern right and wrong and we can use it as our guide, with mistakes included - as learning process. Instead of toxic shame as guide or external validation-other people opinion and their relentless unfair criticism, we use our intrinsical nuclear power plant inside us: Super ego)
- Paradox of knowledge (there is no absolute truth. Predators exploit this through toxic shaming of easy targets: people who are nice, kind, silent, cooperative and who listen to authority - which may lead to Milgram experiment. Truth is that I am right and so are other people as long as we are not violent or unkind. Our honest mistakes are ok, we are not dumb, wrong for making unintentional mistakes)
-cognitive fusion (We understand that we can't trust our thoughts all the time, that the anxiety is lying to us, and that we make space between our thoughts and our interpretations, rules, obligations, shoulds)
This leads to fawning and people pleasing, seeking approval and seeking external validation. This is called External referencing. Now, why Peterson did not mentioned this concept? Perhaps because it is easier to leading people on like a carrot and a mule?
We got to realize our toxic shame is hallucination and instead we can get all the messages and instructions and steps we need from within ourselves, Freud called this place of inner internet database knowledge as SuperEgo. SuperEgo is construed from outside sources, so it is a part of interdependence, it is not autism. It is made out of all books, media, experiences, knowledge we were exposed up until now. Due to Complex Trauma, being exposed to relentless criticism as kids, we were programmed by narcissists not to trust our SuperEgo. We were learned that our opinions do not matter. We were programmed to listen and obey the authority or practically anyone outside. We were made into slaves. As a psychologist, he suppose to tell you this, not me. Now you see, that he is not so great as he appears on the surface, or from your position of anxiety. He and people like him (corrupted right wing politicians) are exploiting people who are feeling scared - in order to follow them.
You got your own brain, you have a puzzle inside you that is desperately needed in this world. You got to let it out, voice it out. Don't self-censor yourself. Check out YT "What Is Kafkaesque? - The 'Philosophy' of Franz Kafka":
""How many Kafka's have lived and died
without ever sharing their voice with the world; whose voice would have changed it forever. How many people never know who they'll be after they're gone." "
Seems to me like you want to go outside. And you said that you want. That is your logic talking. This is healthy part of you. So
You got to make quantum shift and - go. I see the problem "there is nothing out there". Is that statement really true? Perhaps you want something from the outside - something that is not realistic.
Walking is not the only activity. Can you take a bus ride to some other town, national park?
Is there some other reason other than "there is nothing out there"? Can you address other reasons that might be hidden in the dark? When we turn on the light we can see what object we keep stumbling in the dark. For example, for me, the real reason behind social anxiety is other people - their criticism, them mocking me. Observing me, making judgements about me, or laughing at me, how I look or what I say, or what I do. It is not about that the environment itself blocks me - it is other people - their possible reactions that are rude, violent or obnoxious at least..
"I didn't feel like it, I skipped it"
In social anxiety terms, this is brain injury concept. The idea is that we have a wound inside that is producing these two patterns that influence our thinking process:
1) being stuck, not moving, keeping in the loop, trying to solve the unsolvable
and
2) being pessimistic, seeing everything as black which gives energy for us be immobile
This means, our thoughts will always default back to these two modes. And solution is easy:
1) start moving, be active. If you avoid arguments - argue. If you get stuck in anger - decide to be calm
and
2) be optimistic on force. Know you will always feel depressive - now you just take manual over ride and decide you will not be. Your thoughts will try to argue and try to convince you to feel bad - but look at them as brain injury, an etching we gave inside our brain due to being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when we were kids, being exposed to adult hysteria when we were innocent helpless kids - and now it is ingrained in our brain.
We got to help our brain to follow logic, it is stuck in the mud, trying to resolve fears and anxieties. We got to help our brain to push it out of ditch. Brain is stuck it needs our help. It is unable to move on its own, it is unable to motivate us, since its wheels are spinning in one place. We got to get out of the car and push it, until we are on solid ground.
Stoicism, as I see it - is not about being strong - it is in accepting being weak so you could have strong mentality that produce strong thoughts.
For me, breathing techniques and meditations never worked, in fact it had the opposite effect - it increased my anxiety. It made me think that if I feel physical symptoms that I have to make some obsessive act in order to calm down. It is a road to OCD. I don't say it is wrong, but people with social anxiety need to address the root cause, not the symptoms. This is the common mistake for psychologists, therapists, authors and motivators.
IT is the same as if you are living in far north - so every time your car gets stuck in ice - you buy a new car because you think your car is faulty. You simply spend money, time and energy as a solution to being stuck. Instead of learning how to drive on ice.
However - I read biography by Mae West, Hollywood film star from 1930s - and she said, and I'll paraphrase her : that sex is energy. It makes you move, gives you power to move.
So sexual energy is needed. I would see the balance as the key here - as with everything in life.
If you deny and block sexual energy, you will block certain aspects of yourself that are integral part of you and are necessary to be expressed.
Mae West - although she was sex symbol and fought for LGBT right and went to prison in that time, had only one husband and she refused sex to be exploited. That is her quote actually, that you harvest sex to your advantage. Denying it, I don't think it is good thing.
Regarding "We are men, we must be able to have discipline"
I would be also careful with statements like that. You put a lot of restrictions, obligations and societal rules, imposing censorship on yourself - that actually someone else profits from. I would rather focus on myself - not as what society defines and tells me what is right or wrong.
In social anxiety terms - whenever we notice we use "must" or "shoulds" or rules, or obligations, or ideas how it should be - we should drop anything we're doing and think where this is coming from. In most cases, it is default programming from our dysfunctional childhood and sick society that created us to develop fears, to obey and to be slaves. This tyranny of shoulds is how people are controlled and that is crucial part of our fears.
4 months ago
Yeah, complex trauma was big discovery for me too! This video is describing all unconscious hard negative painful feelings, that I attributed to social anxiety, avoidance PD, being Highly sensitive person.. they all described symptoms, but none of them provided answer how to get out of loop and realizing that there is bigger loop going on.
2 months ago For many people it appears as regular thought line, something that is part of daily routine. Many people do not realize they are in triggering state, so they go along with feelings and emotions to guide them to unnecessary decisions based on chemicals inside, that appear as normal decisions - while in fact they are hormones going wild inside.
Don't stop there. I realized that this rabbit hole is much deeper. Here what we observe as sensitive is Moral injury being trespassed. We were hurt in our childhood - being criticized all the time and being exposed to adult hysteria, so our child brain protected itself by setting rules from child's point of view - pretending nothing is happening, since it was unable to talk back, reject the criticism or debate and argue over it - and by keeping silent we were programmed to keep our mouth shut, even as adults when we have the power to make a stand. Since our self-censorship soon spread to all situations similar to original trauma, now we appear over-sensitive - while in fact it is the result of us being triggered to original trauma. Due to cognitive fusion we do not understand we have brain injury - etching in our brain to default to submissive or erratic behaviour sprinkled with pessimism, trauma is co-joined itself with our personality, too.
And solution is quite simple - it is manual over-ride. We push our car out of the rut, out of being stuck in endless loops, resentments and trying to solve the problems in our heads by shifting focus. It takes discipline - but discipline with love and care. We were exposed to negative discipline in our childhood - being punished for our emotions and opinions and this created our trauma, wound and brain injury.
The world in matrix does not promise you a rose garden. There are drama, scandals, prisons, punishments, being blamed and accused unfairly, you have to work for living and even if you have money - you can end up like Epstein - you can abuse women and end up like Bill Cosby - because people in the Matrix are not obedient, they are prone to protest and to emotionally abuse other people if not physically. Invisible wounds are worst - because you don't see them and you do not notice when you get broken. With open wounds, you know, you are alarmed. So this decision was not clever one - to remain in the Matrix. There are also natural catastrophes. You can be shot in the street, no one knows what will happen next in the Matrix. Matrix is not secure - it looks secure. There are earthquakes, car crashes, angry lovers cutting genitals to their partners, human hysteria is radical that does not safety to Cypher by choosing to stay in the Matrix.
And this is actually the point why The Matrix is not reality in our reality. How would Neo find food in the caves of future Earth? He is again stuck in the cave of reality - but without food. Also the existence of free will in movie Matrix suggests that Matrix can be destroyed by humans - and thus no energy for the drones.
https://www.youtube.com/c/DrZwig/videos
Dr. Zwig
I like this plot twist, it is like in a mystery novel where you discover who has done it.
I also see inner critic as mechanism inside us - that separate us from a person who has reacting to child ingrained pattern and person who is healthy. Let me explain:
As kids we were exposed to adult hysteria - relentless criticism from the past, just as you said. Now as adults we are programmed to interpret similar hysteria (someone's criticism) as signal for us to obey, act out as you said - we shut up, we self-censor, we get stuck in intrusive thoughts, shame, toxic shame, trying to resolve the unsolvable.
It is an OCD actually - many people do not have knowledge what PureOCD really is, as opposed to classic OCD with obsessions. Our obsessions are worries and anxieties and fears.
So here lies the revelation about the inner critic - it is wound, a groove in the record where the needle got stuck. So our brain is stuck in the rut due to brain injury - the result of trauma, CPTSD.
We wait for our brain to get unstuck. We think that intrusive thoughts will go away by itself and we wait and wait- while we get flashbacks that we see as inner critic. Flashbacks are part of Complex Trauma, and we are not aware that we were traumatised as kid, when we were exposed to mentally ill people who never sought treatment. We are not aware of that - we are aware only of inner critic. That makes us stuck in a loop-
"Normal" and "healthy" people who do not have inner critic rely on their brain to make a shift- to get out of rut, to change a topic, their thoughts are not influenced by the wound, as we are. So in media and in conversation with others we see that others function normally through their Wu Wei, as the stream carries them - and we imitate them, by relying on our brain to make decisions - but the secret is this invisible wound from trauma. We are not aware we have wound. We are not aware we are stuck. We only have inner critic - and it appears as a caprice, as a fluke, as a peculiar trait, we explain ourselves we are a little eccentric and we think it will pass by itself on its own. It won't.
The first step is to admit we are invalids. We have brain injury. If we get brain scan it would come up - we can google how it looks on pictured of PTSD brain. Google image: How brain looks after narcissistic abuse. Without this acknowledgment we rely on Illusion of Control - and we think brain will somehow carry on and somehow it will fix itself. It won't. Without this information we are like sitting in a car and we are pressing on gas, trying to get car moving - but the car is stuck in the mud, or on ice - and its tires are moving in one place. That is inner critic. Loop, being stuck in dilemma, fear, anxiety, past incidents and warnings about upcoming dangers. That is Illusion of Control, we try to control our fears and rude critical people around us.
The solution is quite simple after we understand this brain injury concept:
1) move on, take action, shift focus, if we are quiet-be loud. if we are loud - be quiet. Do the opposite from what your loop brain is doing.
and
2) be optimistic on force. Our brain injury makes us pessimistic and this catastrophizing due to brain injury gives energy to our immobility.
Hope this info will help someone.
Google quotes pictures:
"Byron Katie quotes"
She is talking about this process of cognitive fusion that made us disciplined into obedient slaves to mentally ill people while we were growing up. Now we can use discipline in the was to shovel ourselves out of the rut.
People who grew up in ex-socialist countries are especially prone to moral injury.
For me, it helped to learn concept called External referencing - where I see other people as Gods and I listen to them, no matter who they are -as ultimate truth and guide how stuff must function. The more angrier, louder and aggressive they are - in my mind they appear stronger, better, and more valid. This belief is road to people pleasing, being pushover and codependent - but no one told me that there is something opposite to external validation.
Which is what you talk about when you mentioned Instant gratification and delayed gratification.
"Instant gratification and delayed gratification."
I realized this is connected to concept called Cognitive fusion. It is idea that I observe my thoughts as reality (so for example, I am not aware that anxiety is lying to me) and I wait on my brain to get me motivated. I realized this came from being exposed to negative discipline when I was kid - being exposed to adult hysteria and relentless criticism and taking blame for anything 24/7 in order to be obeying and taking in commands from my environment - which programmed external referencing.
"routine"
So the solution to cognitive fusion and realization that I wait for my brain to feel up for me to feel courageous, disciplined and moving - which will never happen. Brain is not designed for this. It is up to my ethics, morals, decisions, logic, common sense - to start exercise. Waiting for my brain to feel up to it will never happen. This feels yucky, it feels uncomfortable and I have to expect this yucky feeling - but I do it knowing what my end goal will bring me later - healthy, being stronger, having low fat etc
I see that narcissists and psychopaths who have small amygdala know this secret of discipline, while we, normal, kind people are taught to be fair, to play safe, to rely on our emotions to make decisions - and unfortunately this can make us stuck in worry and fears. And for people who experienced Complex Trauma (trying now to manage social anxiety) this information to over-ride our instincts and auto-pilot is the path to health.
Knowledge and science and real world is not your enemy. Your enemy will try to obfuscate your reality, make you into zombie.
Stick to the facts, explore and test everything on your own - and then decide, and be prepared to accept the fact that you jumped to conclusions too sun. We all do this, it is called logical fallacies and biases - check my videos to see how many of them are there.
We are being enslaved into being obedient morons, who are unable to think for ourselves and draw conclusions from the facts.
It's complex and paradox.
If we did not have free will, there would no conflicts, confrontations, everyone would be obedient and slave.
Also, free will is inside us as illusion of control and moral injury. We think we don't want to get out of bed in the morning because we don't feel like it - and it is up to us to make decision to get up - because we know we have goals to do.
This decision is our free will.
However, if this free will was instilled in the childhood due to relentless criticism that now as adult has turned due to Complex trauma into being perfectionist, busy for the sake of being busy and people pleasing others - than we do not have free will, since it is based on external referencing.
Paradox is we are not aware what we do not know - thus we can't make any decision based on outside information, we use only rehashed decisions from our past, experience and mistakes. We can't see the future - we base our decisions on our past actually, even when planning and we are not even aware of this. That is not free will.
Free will would be seeing everything from multilevel, from multi dimensions, seeing every single thing, object, people and events from all possible angles that we can possible fathom (" to understand completely, or to measure the depth of something"), acknowledge and learn.
Demetri : When you can control your anxiety, you can own the room
It is the concept of Cognitive fusion, Brain injury and Illusion of Control-
as kids we were exposed to relentless criticism 24/s and adult hysteria - so as kids we were hypnotized and programmed to join our body with our thoughts. We never were informed this is unhealthy way of thinking. We never was told that there was an alternative.
People like Peterson and instant-Stoics like this Demetri dude, on the another hand never experienced moral injury and emotional abuse in their childhood, being raised with the silver spoon in their mouth never experienced how it feels to be shut up and not allowed to speak your opinion, their only distress was not getting 4 toys for xmas but getting 3. Well, now they don't have ability to listen to others, so they cannot understand why some people just can't get over it.
So for people like them it is easy to pontificate others to shift and switch their mood at the press of the button. And they see people who are not able to do this as lower beings, stupid ones who are not clever enough to understand the concept of cognitive defusion.
Well insta-Stoics, some people can't switch to being disciplined because their brain has etched injury inside that is causing them to be stuck in a loop, trying to resolve imaginary fears and to be pessimist. This is not by choice, this is brain injury ingrained in the brain.
If instant-Stoics and Peterson knew this fact, they would explain their words in different manner.
They would say: due to mental injury some people are not able to control your anxiety, since you are already doing that but from wrong angle. It is not about controlling anxiety, but it is about manual over-ride. You don't sit in your car and wiggle your steering wheel (as "normal" and "healthy" person is able to do it) - because the tires are turning in the same spot. It is for people who went through CompleX Trauma the matter of stepping outside of the car and giving it a push.
Mentally this means you realize you will always feel depressive and catastrophizing and you will always worry and have intrusive thoughts coming out as eruption especially when triggered - but it is up to us to choose our decisions, logic, common sense and follow on that. Not on our brain. Brain cannot move, it is stuck. We got to help our brain to get unstuck.
This means - shift focus, be active, if you are always shutting up - start talking. If you argue and antagonistic - shut up and be agreeable. IT is doing the opposite from what our fears are telling us, because our anxiety is lying to us, it sends faulty messages and we listen to it, we obey our wound, our inner injury and we take it as commander in chief - while we are commanders, our logic.
This is concept we need to learn, and Peterson as psychologist is suppose to tell it like this, now the question is why is he unable to explain it like this and he is talking to people who never went under any pain during growin up?
Also, all this long text to explain shows the devastating effect of emotional abuse on child's brain, the depth of injury and the world who doesn't care.
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" I have no anxiety over socializing"
The theme we are talking here is avoidance due to social anxiety.
What part exactly you don't understand here?
🤔
You obviously have no social anxiety. Or social phobia related issues whatsoever.
Why are you here? To pontificate others how they are unsocial? 🙄
You said:
"If a person isn't very socially oriented"
Social anxiety is not about extroversion or introversion. Avoidants want to socialize but feel significant distress in social situations.
Social anxiety is relentless belief that other people are criticizing you and talking about you behind your back, and that they will mock you at any minute, complain how you look, criticize you mistakes. And you can't shake that off. That is social anxiety. It is not about hanging out with people or not. It is mental, it is in your head, thinking is distorted due to Complex Trauma and being exposed to adult hysteria and untreated mental illness from adults around you during your childhood.
"focus on acclimating themselves"
Oh yeah, and do you know how this ends up?
It ends up with target being people pleaser, pushover, seeking other people approval, it ends up being stuck with inferiority complex, with codependency. That is what your little advice does to people with social anxiety. It turns them into zombies so psychopaths can chew them better, without any bones inside.
For anyone struggling with social anxiety, check out my videos and my blog about this topic.
The information out there is false, detrimental and produced by sociopaths and "people" who have no empathy at all.
We haven't seen planets in other galaxies. Not sure where you got that from.
People like you, consciously or unconsciously make your remarks to people who see reality from more than one dimension and you shut them up - just because the present facts are coming in your favour.
You should reformulate your words into more eco-friendly statements.
For example, in your place I would say it like this:
Instead of:
"We haven't seen planets in other galaxies. Not sure where you got that from."
I would say:
"Wait, you made a mistake, until now there astronomers did not made any observation outside Milky Way. It would be cool though"
The point I am trying to make is - why I said other galaxies - is because my brain thinks like this:
If Milky Way is huuuuge galaxy - and we observed planets from many different places, than the distance from those places might be enough to reach other galaxies. IT is like Kursk submarine - if it went down in 45 degree angle, it's top would be outside of water - because it was long enough to reach the air.
That is how my brain works, it calculates information from other resources and patch them up with unrelated yet similar topics - here was about distances from various points.
Your comment mocks something inside me that can obviously can predict the future.
Just imagine how many more intelligent people than you, you have shut up in your life and made them self-censor!
IT is like you are Terminator of possible Nikola Tesla's out there.
Just watch out how you speak to people, I am not asking you too much. Sprinkle it, sugar-coat it. We are not animals here.
Yeah, our trauma makes us stuck, in a non movement, trying to resolve the unsolvable, it is being focused on one negative thing, it is like deer staring at car light in the night - without moving.
"(Give yourself) High five"
IT is not common in Europe, so it will not work in the same way as in USA. But the concept is about getting unstuck from negative habits by doing something that is not in alignment with our usual thinking loops that lead to nowhere.
"hard wired in you"
Yeah, that is another important reason why we feel yucky when we ought to support ourselves. It feels unnatural, especially people who are people pleasers, fawning and have Complex trauma issues.
CBT and unhelpful advice from people like Zig Ziglar are missing love component, care and empathy, understanding the other person. Cold statements will never work. People are not machines. Also, person who is down is hypnotized - and you cannot use the language and manner that does not speak in the same language that made people fall in the first place. You need to un-hypnotize them. Plain speech will not work. It is the same as it would not work if you talk to person in different language. They can see your mouth moving and they can hear voice vibration in their ear, but the message is garbled up, it is not getting through to receiver.
Other quotes showed the love and understanding, but they missed the Ziglar's pinpoint advice: to get up. So this is how traumatized people fail to get the whole "package".
I am talking from my experience - I would heard about how we must make a choice and as Roosevelt's wife said that we allow others to control us, or as Frankl said that it is up to me to change myself when I can't control traumatized environment - I was informed what to do - but the missing component was that this is not comfortable. It feels extremely yucky, it feels like you are fish out of water. And you want to go back to what feels comfortable - being obsessed what other people think of me, back to intrusive thoughts what happened or what danger might happen. My brain will go back to being hyperalert and to pouting, it will default back to worry and anxiety. I have to expect this desire and urge and still move on, shift my focus or voice out the elephant in the room in situations when someone is rude and aggressive to me. IT will not feel comfortable. This information was missing to me. This healing from trauma is concept of logotherapy or new age Sedona method.
I heard about Frankl advice in 1998 - now it is 2021. I missed this information all the time:
"It will feel uncomfortable". I missed all the time Pete Walker information that 'doing what is right will feel embarrassing, shameful and scary.'
Healing is romanticized in media and by motivators. Perhaps it is because they don't want to scare people away. But without brutal fact their words does not make any long lasting effect.
On the other hand - I was aware of life is hard. That reality bites - whoever was alive in 1994 heard about this movie title. We all know the song 'I never promised you a rose garden'. Again - here what I miss is the information that I have to get up, That it is up to my logic, decision, common sense to do what is right. What I was missing is the information that I can't wait for my brain or body to feel right to get up. It never will. It will feel yucky to do right things. It will feel uncomfortable to leave the ignorance and pretending there are no problems to solve.
These two concepts need balance - both about doing the right thing instructions how to get unstuck and moving, and the concept about negativity and hardship - these two needs to balance out, like yin-yang.
I write about social anxiety and it feels like I leaving bread crumbs for my past versions to find way out of the woods.
I realized that brain injury is etching in the brain - and when I accept that I will always default back to worry, intrusive thoughts and anxiety, that it is up to me to change focus. I do not wait any longer for my body to feel just right to be active or stop worrying after I resolve all problems with my thoughts. The acceptance of this condition and acknowledging that it is up to my logic to move is a breakthrough and then I understand helpful tips and advice by people who try to help and explain how to manage trauma.
I was aware that other people might pre-judge me when I am silent. That gave birth to my people pleasing and appearing good and nice, since if I would show my anxiety side, I would be extradited from society. No one likes people who complain, nag and criticize constantly - that gave trauma in the first place. So what is problem - it is double binding. To shut up, to be quiet is wrong since we will develop inferiority complex and self-censor ourselves. If we speak up and voice our concerns - it will be annoying and we'll appear obnoxious to others.
Regulation is the solution. I can voice out my concerns - without sounding critical or obnoxious or boring or explosion. Also, I can shut up to accommodate others - to a certain degree and to a certain level, in order to listen to them and show them I understand.
Some people want money, some people desire influence and control, domination over other people.
For people with social anxiety the fear appears as a form of manipulation. On some level it is a way to control other people but it goes even further than that, it is connected to Maslow needs.
For example - if I confront people, and if I tell them what I really think, and warn them about every single wrong thing that they do that cause me moral injury - I might lose my job and end up homeless. So me "not being nice" fears control me from being alone and ending up me in the streets begging for food. It is not about controlling other people to be nice to me back.
I see people who are nice and they suffer from social anxiety - as a sign that they were exposed to psychopaths as kids, it is being exposed to adult hysteria when they were too small to process other people insanity as insanity. They were programmed in their childhood to develop people pleasing techniques of being nice in order to survive relentless criticism and taking blame for every single mistake. External referencing is program of trauma that we carry into adulthood.
Narcissistic abuse causes physical damage to brain, it is called brain injury so it is etching in our brain to default always to being hyperalert. Without acknowledging trauma, we can't understand that self worth means relying on our logic, common sense and information to make decision based on what is inside. So for example, if I encounter someone rude or aggressive - my brain will default to two patterns: 1) I am in danger, I must focus on panic and 2) I am failure and everything is negative. This two patterns work against my will, because they are etching in my brain due to childhood trauma of lack of love and being exposed to criticism early on. "I am in danger" will make me focus to people please, to shut up, to be nice, to avoid confrontation, to avoid voicing out the elephant in the room. It will make me shut up if someone hits me because I am being told by society that I must be strong, I must not scream or express my panic - toxic masculinity rules will make me into zombie that takes in the blows and unfair treatment. So being nice is not a manipulation or trying to other people to like me, it is a hypnosis.
I see the solution as doing the opposite from etched brain injury:
1) I act, I make deliberate action based on my values, logic, common sense, gathered information and knowledge and instinct and intuition. If I always shut up due to fears - I should talk. If I freeze as usual habitual response - I should move. If I am angry, and hysterical and act on panic - I should shut up and see what is going on.
and
2) to be positive and optimistic on force. Because I know my body will be inclined to default to etching in my brain that is catastrophizing everything.
It is knowing that this decision part will feel yucky. It will feel strange and weird to base my actions on logic, as oppose to what I feel in my body.
That's how I would approach being too nice issue with people who suffer also social anxiety. People with social anxiety carry unreasonable amount of obligations, rules and shoulds on their back and trying to fit in. Being nice or not being nice is also a way to fit in, what is expected of us, how should we behave. It will never work, it will never make sense unless we tackle the wound inside, this invisible injury we have that is producing social anxiety.
Yes, this information is spot on, it is clear instruction - but it will not work for people who come to listen about confidence. This is why:
exactly due to brain. The brain for people who do not have "natural" confidence to default to fear and anxiety. This is due to Complex Trauma, being exposed to hysterical and mentally ill people in their childhood, relentless criticism 24/7.
So brain now defaults back to seeing the negative. This part need to be explained to people with low confidence, it is crucial for them to know this well.
Without this information about brain injury, people with low confidence wait for their brain to feel good, to feel confident. It will never happen. Without acknowledging that we have permanent condition that will always default back to pessimism and un-confidence, paradoxically we can start to listen to our decisions, logic and common sense. Otherwise we would never give priority to our instructions, we will always lean back to our body and brain to make decisions - which are always pessimistic. This is missing link that motivators, psychologist and friends lack to mention and warn about.
I realized that instead of toxic shame I can trust my inner wisdom, experience, knowledge, it is already inside me in form of Super-Ego.
"When someone experience trauma, their brain is changed. It is not what is wrong with you, it is what happened to you. It impacts our brain."
Yes, this is another revelation that was huge to me - I realized that my brain will default to being stuck in loop of intrusive thoughts and being pessimistic, it is ingrained inside me, so therefore I cannot expect my brain and my body to ever feel good in order to take any action and to get moving. I have to rely on my decisions, what I learned, what I know is right, my logic, intuition and instinct. And brain injury concept explains why this reliance on my inner worth feels yucky, difficult and un-natural to me, especially when I get triggered of flashbacks or negative experience. Without admitting I am injured inside, I am not giving the power to my logic to make decisions for me. I cling on my body for my feelings and emotions to guide me - while these are governed by brain injury, since there is etching inside that defaults my thinking process to intrusive worry and catastrophizing. So I need cognitive defusion - which means I cannot trust my thoughts and take them all for granted. Instead I have to rely on what I know inside is right, logic, common sense, my Super Ego, depository of inner internet, database and knowledge that I built by collecting information from outside. It includes mistakes too and being fine with not being perfectionist, seeing mistakes as learning opportunity.
According to The Free Dictionary, "Hallucination a sensory impression (sight, touch, sound, smell, or taste) that has no basis in external stimulation. Hallucinations can have psychologic causes, as in mental illness, or they can result from drugs, alcohol, organic illnesses, such as brain tumor or senility, or exhaustion. When hallucinations have a psychologic origin, they usually represent a disguised form of a repressed conflict."
Toxic shame and hallucinations are totally different. Please consider doing your own research to gain insight, facts, and wisdom."
Let me explain:
Roger Shepard said: "Perception is externally guided hallucination".
That is where I got inspiration to use the word Hallucination.
Toxic shame as shame is very real. But as an entity - as a cloud - it is not real.
I found out that toxic shame exhibits inside me as intrusive thoughts. This discovery was revolutionary, I was not aware of this. I found it out after I went through all resources and highlighted all the points that I felt were helpful and referring to my anxiety, fear and shame.
And the result was: my problems are rooted in intrusive thoughts.
It is a fear of what other people think of me. It comes to me as flashbacks, through triggers. (Later I learned this is symptom of CPTSD).
I thought it was my caprice, quirk and I did not connected the patterns to see my anxieties as intrusive thoughts.
After this realization - I found out about Pure OCD. And Mark Freeman's YT channel. He talks about intrusive thoughts as thoughts that come to our mind - but we must not engage with them because we will make them stronger. It is like an allergy - when you start to scratch it you can't stop. And if you ignore it, the urge to scratch subsides. In the same way works intrusive thoughts.
So I followed advice regarding OCD until one day I was bullied at work and my intrusive thoughts came back and I could not manage them anymore. I tried to follow OCD advice about it but I was weak.
So 5 years later I was explaining this to Mark Freeman YT channel - that my intrusive thoughts are back when I am in a situation where I cannot escape - where my Maslow needs are depended on a job - or alternatively me ending up in the streets, homeless.
In a way - I was telling him that toxic shame is not hallucination.
He brushed me off by saying that his channel is focused on well-being and it is up to me to choose health. That I simply have to observe intrusive thoughts as cloud.
That left me in dead end... until I found out about Brain injury concept.
Complex trauma leaves people with invisible brain scar, injury. This means, my brain will default to two patterns of thinking process: 1) I will be stuck in loop, trying to solve problems and issues inside my brain and I will not move, I will not be able to be aware of other perspectives and
2) I will default to being pessimist. And seeing world as black, catastrophizing everything - and this will give energy to me being immobile.
And after I know this, after I accept this brutal fact that I have this injury that will always make me default to being stuck and that everything suck - paradoxically I can choose to opt out by my decisions, logic and common sense:
1) to move, to be active, to change my focus
and
2) to be optimistic on force.
So it is about my brain getting stuck in a rut, and I must help my brain to move on. It is spinning in the same place and it can't move - since it is stuck due to injury. And all I have to do is to get out of the car and push it.
This is where hallucination comes in. I have to see that my toxic shame is hallucination due to trauma. I can replace toxic shame with my Super Ego. Toxic shame makes me to search validation in external world, to seek other people guidance, while I neglect myself. I seek other people to approve my decisions, as external referencing. And when I observe toxic shame as a cloud of imposed and implanted messages, hypnosis - programming - I can reject it.
Instead I turn to my self worth to guide me, to rely on, with mistakes included.
Toxic shaming is controlling others. It is a tool to control other people, especially people who are nice, kind and who follow orders and obey authority. That is why it is crucial to see it as hallucination - a hypnosis.
Complex trauma and toxic shame stem from child being exposed to relentless criticism and being blamed for every mistake all the time.
Toxic shame exhibited in my by people pleasing and fawning. I distrusted my choices and I waited for others (especially people who are loud and intrusive) to guide me, to approve what I have done or what I need to do.
There is no other way than to reject this thinking concept as hallucination.
Byron Katie talks about this actually, almost every quote from her is about this concept.
I have read Bradshaw's book in 1998. I have been struggling with social anxiety since 1989. His book helped me to define some of unknown forces, but he failed to name the toxic shame as toxic fog - so his book did not help me , and it left me in fact with more fears and more anxiety - since I soaked up all the examples he mentioned in his book, due to my introjection - which is response to trauma learned in childhood.
Bradshaw spent his half book explaining how to get rid of toxic shame - that came down to nothing. IT would help that he simply said:
"Toxic shame is toxic fog, an entity that is conglomerate of dysfunctional environment in your childhood. It is real sensation and it has real effect - but only if you engage in it. You will not be able to reject it until you realize that trauma from childhood made you to seek trauma bonding from others - validation and approval from other people. Toxic shame stole your soul, your own self worth and place it in external, other people and your inner critic as your guide. Instead you got to realize you have Super Ego - a depository of all accumulated knowledge, experience, information, instinct and intuition - that will guide you, it is your self worth. You do not need toxic shame to guide you anymore. You learn to lean on toxic shame and external referencing when you were emotionally abused as kid. As adult, you have your logic, common sense, decisions to guide you instead."
That information would help a lot. But Bradshaw never said it - and I was left with believing at the first sign of fear that I am wrong by default - and that is toxic shame. The wrong deep, ingrained belief based on lies from childhood that I believed since I was not adult who can know psychology concepts, I could not help myself with information available to you as kid. Therefore - toxic shame is hallucination.
Toxic shaming is real.
Trauma is real.
Toxic shame is hallucination, a hypnosis, a programming implanted by dysfunctional environment when we were kids (relentless criticism and taking blame for anything 24/7).
It is a delusion, imaginary world that we were forced to believed in, trained as Pavlovian dogs into believing I am inept and I can't rely on my self worth. Instead toxic shame instructs me to seek approval, validation and guidance from external - especially from people who are rude, obnoxious and aggressive, who impose their commands on others. I can replace Toxic shame referencing to Super Ego- my own depository of information that I need, knowledge that I collected from the outside source. With mistakes included, that I own and I take responsibility for. With toxic shame, I expect others to tell me what to do and I hand them control, to control me. I can get rid of it only if I observe toxic shame as virus code that was implanted when I was kid. For human mind, this rejection of toxic shame is only possible if we decide to see it as hallucination, a fear appearing real.
Exactly - toxic shame is a feeling - not a fact.
You are not worthless. That is lie.
This feeling is fake, it was imposed by mentally ill people onto us, psychopaths who convinced us that we are worthless and we believed them.
We have been thrown a veil of lies and guilt that does not belong to us, but we believed them. We believe in lies.
We are worthy. That is truth, that is real.
Therefore, toxic shame is hallucination that appear real to us, it appears to us that we are inept that that we can't handle life. That is lie. We are strong, we are smart and we can handle life as much as any other person, with or without shame on their back.
Now every information, quote and resource regarding healing makes sense.
I have been examining toxic shame for 30 years - I have shaken it by all sides, turned it from all angle, visited every hidden corner in subconsciousness.
This hallucination makes sense - even your definition fits - toxic shame really is "a disguised form of a repressed conflict". It is form of resentment.
As Roy Masters said:
"Resentment is hypnotic emotions. If I want to hypnotize you, all I have to do is frustrate you and upset you. To criticize you and degrade you, and pretty soon you are thinking backwards. You try to please me. You do whatever I want for peace – (but) there is no peace."
Take your time.
5 months ago
Thank you!
Great steps. This will definitely work for normal and sane people who are adults.
However I had problem with angry people who are not willing to listen, they dump their anger through demands, shouting, yelling and commanding - and then they simply turn their back and leave. :( Even when I start to talk and try to make interaction.
The secondary problem is also me, very sensitive to loud, rude people and I interpret them as competent, right, strong and better. The problem for me is my perception and explanation that I am inferior and I should shut up and not even defend myself - even when what they accuse me of is clearly lie and incorrect.
Some people are not willing to explain the problem (perhaps they are not intelligent enough to describe it). Some people are simply evil and they love chaos, they love arguments for the sake of arguments. Some people are incompetent but they hide this through cursing, yelling and constant never-ending anger - therefore all of them, they are unwilling to leave Psychological Refractory Period because no one touches, probes or questions loud and screaming drama queen.
As you said, empathy and validation is the key. Toxic people try to illicit resentment inside us, because when we are too angry, in stress, in Psychological Refractory Period, we also cannot think clearly and we are easy target to gaslight, to shut us up, to shut up the voice of reason and this gives clean hands for narcissists, abusers and other mentally unstable people who use anger as manipulation and victimhood. You try to defend yourself, they will accuse you of acting victimized. This is where empathy and validation steps in. If we diminish resentment, we will stay in calm place. In our calm place, we can naturally get answers and reactions to difficult situations and difficult people. One solution might just be after we alarm and alert those who are using anger as manipulation, and they keep doing it, is to leave them if we are not able to ignore them.
12 hours ago
But if we are stuck with them, I found out the best way is to be honest, authentic and speak the elephant in the room. Without explosion, without drama, only facts and objectivity. They will try Ad Hominem, nah - ignore personal insults and keep to truth. Narcissists hate transparency, they hate truth, they hate that other people state the obvious, what they have done, it is hard for them to confront them with what they are doing.
"Assertive criticism always involves giving an explanation of the situation as the critic sees it, stating why it is a problem, how it makes him feel and describing what he wants to see done about it."
URSULA MARKHAM, How to deal with difficult people
Trump have no direct influence on your Maslow needs right now. For example, he is not the one who can abuse you mentally and then fire you and you are left homeless without job in the streets.
Trump is not the one when you need some service and help from other person - and this person is rude and brush you off - so you - you do what? Think about Trump.
Trump as president had powers to influence economy and mentality of people through him giving example of narcissism and psychopathy as an ineffective way to communicate to others - and this is all powers that he can't do. It is vague impact left to butterfly effect, domino effect that might or might not happen in the future.
The real problem are everyday Trumps that we meet in our lives that impact our lives.
This is where Byron Katie steps in. She says that our brain will default to thinking negative and to by hyperalert and stuck in thinking loop how to resolve unsolvable situations - and we even won't be aware we are running in circles. What she is talking about is that answer lies inside us - that we accept we are wounded, injured by outside circumstances but it is up to my logic, common sense and intuition to be optimistic on force even though everything sucks, and to keep on moving, not to be stuck. This may entail reacting and warning the abusive person to stop abusing - instead of our people pleasing and trying not to rock the boat methods and all rationalizations and suppressing that cause us moral injury.
This is great example of "healthy brain".
Many people who went through trauma, Complex Trauma - being exposed to constant relentless criticism when growing up 24/7 and taking blame for everything - now as adults have brain injury. IT causes them to default to 1) being stuck in PureOCD loop of intrusive thoughts, hyperalert and 2) being pessimist - seeing danger in everything.
This injury does not allow those negative thought to disappear. For those people negative thoughts stay. These people were trained and programmed in their childhood to think about people pleasing and ignoring own needs - thus the etching in the brain started - and this ingrained injury in their brain does not allow them to let go of negative thoughts - they are stuck with them and in any given situation - with trigger or none, with flashbacks or none - the brain will default to being stuck and that everything is black.
So Byron Katie steps in this moment. This is logotherapy or Sedona method - however it needs update: that it is up to us to realize we are stuck with injury that will always default back to negative thoughts - so it is up to us to rely on our own decisions, common sense and intuition to do the right thing - which may be changing focus, standing up for myself, getting job done, task, dreams, little things that I forget when I am scared or angry or dysregulated emotionally. I do not rely on my brain to charge me - it is up to me to take matters in my own hand, it is manual over-ride. Instead of sitting in a car and pressing gas while I am stuck in a mud - I get out of the car and push car out of the rut so it can drive smoothly after that pushing, me pushing it out. I got to help my brain to get unstuck.
For people who are stuck with negative thoughts - we got to realize brutal truth that our brain injury will not allow this automatic transition as Lisa described - it is not our fault. We are not to blame here. But it is our responsibility to do it ourselves, manually. IT will not be done automatically as with Lisa.
This is why many people can't be changed on press of button or simply get over it - due to brain injury. Their brain does not work as in healthy population that never had emotional abuse exposure in their innocent development era.
I found I deal better with small annoying things when I prepare for them to happen beforehand - when I expect them and as you said - I try to understand why people do dumb things - they are probably not thinking and worrying about something wrong they did like stopping at zebra crossing. Perhaps their brain is too small to process all the rule of civilization, they can't be blamed for this, it is like expecting your pet animal to learn talking or do art or something that is beyond their capacity. :D
It comes down to what I have control over. And whether am I entitled to order people around and expect people to obey my rules of life.
The truth is we don't have control and we can't control other people. If I can't do anything about it, I would try to build my tolerance level.
This is connected to masculinity - will I be nervous, hysterical Karen - or person who does not react to little things with rage or thinking about it and wasting time on trying to resolve them in my brain. It is also about being objective - what can I fix? Am I able to teach all people how to drive their cars politely? Obviously I can't. Can I vote for political party that supports rules as for example in Germany - where even small traffic violations are punished by police patrol - yes. That is what I can control. I can control - that I talk about it and vent it out - just as you did. That is healthy.
It's great that you said them: "Let me finish." That is the best way to deal with little things- in situation where we can react and talk, alarm and alert some jerk. No drama, no explosion. Manly, masculine cool remark. They do not have to listen to you - and you will get the more clear about the person - is he pushy arrogant bully who you'd better avoid associating with or normal person who simply forgot their manners for whatever reason.
Yeah, I knew intellectually about this for many years - but what was missing was medical terms. Such as: external referencing, external validation, fawning, introjection, trauma bonding, moral injury. Putting into medical words into concepts helped me more and deeply to realize this is not some unrelated caprice, a quirk, something that I do once in a while - this is serious condition and it is related to trauma, complex trauma. This realization made a great shift to me - since now I was able to focus on what is healthy: my own self worth.
"My mistake was: I pretended everything was ok when it wasn't. I swallowed a lot of pain. Face it, when you are in relationship with somebody, they will hurt your feelings on occasion."
Yep, it is making rationalizations. And it is not connected only to friendship. There are relationships: professional ones on job. My explanations was: I must be kind and nice. I must not be nervous as 99,99% people around me are, I must be beacon of light. Also, if I show my moral injury, I will get fired, be homeless and I will beg for food. So I must be obedient and take it all in, no matter how rude someone is. I smile back, that is what all spiritual teachers speak about as normal reaction to rude people. So I smiled, and self-censor myself and shut up.
"As people pleaser we go through a great length to avoid conflict. We say yes when we mean no. We do things that are really hard for us or we over extend ourselves. We want that approval so much."
For me, it was not really approval. It was in the beginning. It later was mainly about me in danger of being homeless and without a job - if I start to speak out what bothers me around people who were around me. If I speak the truth - that they are rude, that they are entitled, that they are hysterical, that they are sick, aggressive, unreasonable, unrealistic and demanding.
"That lead me pretending something that I wasn't."
This is definition of Moral injury. I read so many books and gathered so many resources about people pleasing - and fears and social anxiety -and none of them talk about this crucial concept.
"Once i started to say how hurt i am everything came out."
Yeah, had that moment, too. It is freeing. We should not be hard on ourselves, everyone makes mistakes, and no one told us how to channel express and voice out elephant in the room. We were not taught this process when we were suppose to learn as kids. Instead we got programming to obey and take commands from hysterical environment.
"other person felt attacked, don't give them barraged of history"
I would say - if we do it anyway, we should not be hard on ourselves. This is unknown territory for us - but it is still a step in the right direction.
"I exploded in a way that I was not proud of, and I felt really bad about. I realized I bombarded this person, these were painful lessons for me"
Consider this Pete Walker statement in his book about Complex Trauma:
HE said:
"It is crucial for deeper level recovery that we learn that feelings of fear, shame and guilt are sometimes signs that we have said or done the right thing. They are emotional flashbacks to how we were traumatized for trying to claim normal human privileges."
"lessons how I did not contributed, because healthy relationship should be based on honesty"
Consider this:
If we feel psychological safety we would not withdraw to fawning as the first response to perceived danger. If the other person was not manipulative, borderline, acting superior, we would already feel secure enough to talk with them honestly. It is not 100% our fault for being quiet and silent to moral injury. It has to do a lot about the other person and the society, prone to cutting shortcuts in their conclusions thus producing plethora of biases and logical fallacy.
People pleasing is not all that bad. It is not 100% negative. People pleasing and fawning have good side: it is about friendship, it is about listening to others, it is about allowing others to express their pains, it is about understanding and trying to cooperate with others, giving them a chance to develop relationship into interdependence instead of codependency and inferiority complex. It is not all our fault. As people pleasers we tend to take on blame and guilt - and this is due to toxic shame, also a byproduct of trauma from childhood where we were been blamed for absolutely everything.
Also, when I feel annoyed - who am I that I can command people where they should stand if I take photo? That is very narcissistic of me - to expect that people will obey me and serve my needs, urges and that other people will somehow magically read my mind and know what I want from life and where I want those people to stand. That is very unhealthy mentality and perception of the world. So this is second disorder and distortion of reality.
Let's explore third:
"practice, exploring feelings, mindfulness"
Ok, everything is great - but if I pretend that someone did no cause me moral injury - I will
1) spread evil in my mind: I will become people pleaser, fawning, trauma bonding with others
and
2) spread evil in the world: bullies will see your exploring feelings, mindfulness and being cool as green light to spread their abuse
"expressing your feelings"
To make a long story short - open up to other people who are not involved is nagging and complainig . it is draining . It is being emotional vampire where we exploit energies of people who are close to us. The best solution is -
1) if something is bothering us and it is not involved in our objective boundary break - we look and observe if we are responding to situation as allergy. Gather more information. Am I entitled? It is probably that other people are being morons and they have no idea about etiqutte and they will never learn so I cannot expect to change or control other people. That is cognitive distortion.
However,
2) if someone is talking to me, if someone is rude - this is like in Star Trek when aliens appear on big screen - you got to communicate with them. Instead of shutting up, instead of self-censorship this is opportunity to voice the elephant in the room. Narcissists, exploiters, predators hate the truth, they hate transparency - so this is our weapon. Just speak it out. If someone is hysterical - hey you are hysterical stop it! If someone ask me something that is not fair - I do not look automatically at them as superior or correct - I question if they are normal, healthy and benevolent and I voice it out.
Stuffing your anger is not the key. It is not about processing emotions. It is about communication, handling quick conflict, turning the confrontation in the line of finding solutions.
You forgot to mention one very important thing: external factor. There are people out there who on purpose annoy and attack and abuse other people - just for fun or to get what they want. Me being mindful, cool and talking about this with my intimate people - will not help. In fact - ignoring such psychopaths and pretending I am cool with it - can be very dangerous.
It is said that people who do not feel fear are prone to be exploited.
We got to let go of toxic masculinity mentality:
1) it is not ok to explode and
2) it is not ok to implode - pretending I am not bothered just not to rock the boat.
Both methods are highly dangerous - mentally speaking. I can become addicted to both of methods - either being Karen drama queen, or being people pleaser where other people do whatever the hell they want with me and they just sweep their feet on me.
In some cases it is ok even to explode. In some cases it is perfectly ok to be mindful and shut up. But in most cases - it is about communication, voicing out the elephant in the room, alarm&alert the other person when they cross their boundaries and not to self-censor myself.
And another thing that you forgot to mention for people who still have issues with fawning and shutting up - explore complex trauma concept. In childhood we were exposed to mentally ill surrounding that programmed us to shut up and serve and obey authority, which we took over in adulthood. For this people - shutting up, being mindful and pretending life is rose garden - this is creating a deep moral injury and it is very painful. The solution is in exploring own self worth that you focus on - instead of other people.
Explore concepts to set you free: external referencing, external validation, trauma bonding, introjection, fawning, codependency, polyvagal theory, CPTSD flashbacks and triggers.
Brain injury, moral injury and toxic shame due to Complex Trauma.
It sounds complicated but it is not.
Complex trauma is being exposed to relentless criticism when we were kids that created brain injury and toxic shame. Now triggers pop up that remind me of original trauma, whenever someone is rude, I shut up and take abuse, just as I learned in childhood, being exposed to adult hysteria. This inability to react due to shame and fears is Moral Injury.
Now - the problem is brain injury - it is etching in our brain that default our thinking process in two patterns:
1) being stuck, having intrusive thoughts, never solving, being hyperalert and not moving
and
2) being pessimistic, seeing the world, people and situations as black, it is catastrophizing. This gives energy to immobility in pattern no1.
Now here is the trick. Since we will always default back to being stuck and seeing everything that sucks, I have do:
1) realize I am invalid inside, it is not by fault, this injury in invisible and it is inside me. Therefore, the only way is for me to step out of the car and push the car - since it is stuck in the rut. This means - I consciously choose to follow and act on my decisions, on my logic, common sense. I will have trouble with this if I am people pleaser, if I fawn to others - also due to Complex Trauma and toxic shame. So I have to resolve these two in order to turn focus from other people onto my goals, dreams. I do this by:
a) realizing that toxic shame is hallucination, it is a lie that appears as truth: that I am worthless and that I have no value.
and
b) to learn about external referencing concept, external validation, trauma bonding and introjection and fawning - so that I can recognize unhealthy options that appear to me as quick but detrimental solutions.
and
2) to realize I have to be optimistic on force. Since my brain will not be able to do it on its own, it is up to me to carry on, to be happy by choice, to see positive - but not in toxic positivity manner (this is not about repression and rejection of reality). It is about accepting brutal facts and choosing to move on.
Having intrusive thoughts mean we are focused on danger, on people and situations that were or might be dangerous, uncomfortable and aggressive, they might be imaginary or even my allergy - seeing danger where there is none in reality.
Getting unstuck means trusting my Super Ego (collection of knowledge and information and experience and intuition) - instead of putting trust in other people and believing that toxic shame is real.
Feeling intense fears, anxiety and being uncomfortable - while choosing to be optimistic and to move my focus on things I can control and do is not easy. That is why healing is not easy, it is not quick - but it is the only way to be mentally healthy. Getting unstuck means also if I always shut up - that I speak up, that I say my opinion, especially if someone accuse me of something unfair, wrong or false - where I would shut up, self-censor and I would rationalize that it is better not to rock the boat for the peace sake. This ignorance of unfairness is moral injury. It is not and it has nothing to so with being nice, good person. It is trauma response, learned and programmed in our dysfunctional environment by mentally ill people around us.
Choosing my logic and common sense over fears will feel yucky, it will feel uncomfortable, it will feel like being fish out of water, and it will be tempting to go back to trauma habits: people pleasing, fawning, shutting up, keeping silent, avoidance and withdrawal - but I have to see this urge to avoid as brain injury manifesting itself through thought process. It is brain that is stuck in rut. It is injury, not reality. In my head it will appear as real - that I am in danger, it will appear as if I must run hide and be silent. It will appear as physical symptoms, especially if I engage with intrusive thoughts. The injury manifests itself through intrusive thoughts. So I do not engage in them. I focus on my job, on my task, dreams, on things I forgot to do when I would usually engage in thinking intrusive thoughts and trying to resolve them in my head.
I will realize that Illusion of control is real phenomena. I cannot protect myself with over-thinking and intrusive worry. It seems like I am protecting myself but this is bias - I believe my thoughts help me to keep safe- while in reality I am safe all myself, without intrusive thoughts that come as fake rescuers to me head - due to brain injury.
Yes, this is why healing method from CBT, Logotherapy and Sedona Methods are not working. There are missing links in those therapy methods. I'll make video about this.
The biggest missing link is directly connected to the suffering person.
It is not acknowledging the trauma. Trauma is not acknowledged. And trauma is exactly that - being acknowledged, being abandoned, not being loved, being ignored.
All 3 methods are clinically correct: the right step is to get up and move on.
But here is the missing information:
You will not feel well. Injury is inside, it is invisible but it is etching in the brain, it is real injury - it shows up at scan of brain.
So we will never pull ourselves together and we can't let go because injury is inside. We cannot do anything about it. It is like broken leg - we were attacked, there is injury inside, it is broken. I cannot heal it by my thoughts - that is magical thinking, cognitive distortion and almost schizophrenia instructed by official therapists - to expect that we pull ourselves up by the press of button.
But- here is the plot twist: we can follow our common sense and logic instead. It means we shift focus and do jobs tasks that need to be done. Instead of engaging in intrusive worry.
One part of us will say: "This is fake, This is wearing mask, This is acting, this is not real"
Yes! That is the missing information that is lacking from official medical resources and therapist and motivators: the world is fake. Everyone is actor. They fake confidence, they are not confident. Confidence is paradox - it means you are confident truly only when you accept you are unconfident. People are not happy - they want to appear happy and please their friends by not whining and complaining, they don't want to be burden.
Some will say - but there are some people who are happy - especially when they have money and power. That is mental illness. They convinced themselves to be happy, they are delusional. Many people are not aware they have mental illness. Many people are not aware they have intrusive thoughts that guide their perceptions and decisions. So - it is not about being fake, it is about accepting our role. This whole life is a stage play, and we are actors in it.
Anxiety is being awakened from the dream and seeing reality as it is. But we can't live life awakened. We have to make pretend and fulfill our acting role - so be yourself. If I am surrounded by toxic environment - I move away immediately if I can. If I can't - I make it my goal, my plan to move one day. If I am worried right now about something that happened - if it is related to other people - I can learn about external referencing and toxic shame to shake it off and rely on my self worth - my decisions.
The knowledge and information here is crucial. IT builds up our Super Ego - depository of guidance what to do in ambiguous situations that scare us and trigger our inner wound. Without information I turn to other people for guidance, I put control in their hands. And then they can easily hurt me, since they have access to my private space, the trauma injury was etched this way - when we were kids and we could not understand how to protect ourselves - we opened ourselves to authority as guide because we lacked information how to live.
You are totally correct - but you are missing one crucial point here. Whatanerd said he feels like deer - that is his trauma speaking. This is inside him. And you are negating this. You are doing damage to him. You are not acknowledging his pain. This is what CBT, Sedona methods and Logotherapy and all therapist make mistake - you are negating the real injury inside him. You are not acknowledging his pain. You want to help him, but it comes our wrong. You are making new trauma. The original trauma was caused by abandonment and by not acknowledging him - and you are now unwittingly do exactly the same thing as the abuser done to him - you are forcing him to abandon himself. You are traumatizing him all over again.
It is like nurse Ratched. You want to help but your methods are no different than the cause that brought sick people in the hospital. And here is the truth - you are traumatized too, you are also mentally ill, just as him, just as nurse Ratched - and you are not aware of it. You heal your pain by giving other people advice and fixing them, you are abandoning your own wound inside. Trying to fix other people on force will not work, and it is a part of cognitive distortion. Of yours, you are not doing this on purpose. Your trauma makes you hypnotized. In fact, you even feel cognitive dissonance and want to refuse and reject my words- but this is exactly how you appear in Whatanerd's mind.
Forcing mental things is lack of love, lack of true care for others. That is sickness. That creates new trauma. Complex trauma in most cases is not product of physical abuse - it is neglect, abandonment. It is total disrespect of other person. They are injured and they are entitled to their pain, injury hurts. It cannot be and it will never be resolved by magically thinking and convincing them they think in wrong way. Wrong way is inside, it is stemming from injury, trauma inside. It will never be fixed.
So it is not about being warrior or telling other people what should they think - we can only show by our own example or quoting official medical quotes from experts in this field. Everything else is our own opinion and subject to be invalid.
Once we acknowledge we have this injury, then we can rely on our logic to guide us, common sense. To get us out of rut of intrusive worry. Then we can be able to shift focus on goals, tasks that need to be done, instead of licking our wounds.
This false hope is part of trauma. This means you don't get the healing because you are stuck in illusion of control.
This is exactly why Logotherapy and CBT did nothing for me in late 90s. I learned about them both - clinically, they are the most correct healing therapies for trauma - however they both are missing Rosetta stone that would translate their message to our trauma. They both are saying pick yourself up, go to manual over-ride, but they do not explain this part at all. Because they don't connect with trauma. They are re-traumatising the target once again, abandoning the traumatised person once again, as it happened in dysfunctional childhood. Because they 1) show no empathy toward the person by respecting the dysregulation chaos and 2) they are giving false delusion that it can be healed. There is a saying don't count your chicken before it's hatched. This false promise is giving the mind a signal that there will never ever be trauma and triggers and hard and difficult people and events. So by doing this, both approaches are actually not understanding picking up the part - that you go on no matter what. That you feel optimistic no matter what (not toxic positivity though). It is knowing your trauma will make you catastrophize, but you choose to be optimistic anyway. This part is missing from both approaches. And they do not explain that relying on our decisions, wisdom, common sense, logic, intuition will feel yucky, because that is how cognitive defusion is working, it is annoying, it feels uncomfortable and scary and ambiguous. CBT and Logotherapy do not explain this. It feels like treatment against cancer - you feel exhausted and healing takes everything you got, all your strength.
The paradox is that once we admit the brutal facts and choose being optimistic by force, this gives us healing. When you hope that your fears, and dysregulation and intrusive thoughts will go some unknown day, you subconsciously refuse to take responsibility right now for your condition.
This part is what therapists and motivators and psychologists (well most of them) do not understand, because it is paradox, it is complex and it is counter-intuitive. I am talking about Stockdale paradox - accepting brutal facts and keep on going. This means, we do not rely on our brain to give us green light to move on. Because it will never happen. It is basing our decisions on our will, common sense, logic instead of waiting for the brain to pick us up. No, instead, we got to pick our brain.
Social anxiety actually is: Embarrassment from potential criticism, mocking and violence for speaking up the truth (our opinion, voicing out thoughts, logic, common sense, elephant in the room).
"Meaningful conversation." Most people who are not shy neither have social anxiety are dumb, they are dull and their conversation is about where they have been or where they plan to go. Or gossip, whining or nagging. It is boring.
Approach - "many people can't pass this part". This is for "normal" and "healthy" people who are not psychopaths. They respect other people boundaries. Narcissists, borderliners, sociopaths don't have trouble about bothering and exploiting nice and kind people.
On the other hand - people with social anxiety pass this part way too soon - mentally in their head. Unconsciously they are too much too zoomed in to other person, as if they don't see a person but pixels of this person. This is due to fear and trauma from dysfunctional childhood where their abusive environment ingrained the urge to serve and obey psychopaths. So now they are zoomed in. Lorenz called it imprinting - it is similar to chicks following their mother, or yellow boots if that is that they see when hatched. I call it ambiguity concept: which means that socially anxious people due to etched trauma observe social situations as uncomfortable so they cling onto other people and thus form external reference locus of control, which grows into people pleasing and being pushover. The worth is not internal. Toxic shame makes it external, seeking in other people. This is why they react so strongly to criticism, other people emotions. So, approach for social anxiety people is glue onto first person and stick to them. Therefore, healthy advice would be to zoom out, not zoom in, as you are explaining here. SAD (social anxiety disorder) people need to realize they have their own self worth inside. Their opinion does matter. They are probably more, or far more intelligent than average folks around them - and we know that people can't handle the truth and they will feel annoyed by truth - which SAD person interprets as personal attack - and this forms vicious loop of anxiety and mutism and self-censorship. Decision to shut up leads to more people pleasing and inability to defend, and also leads to our personality not being able to form, since it is hidden, unexpressed. The advice to approach people, counter-intuitively does damage because it does not allow SAD person to form persona. With this wrong advice, they think they are inept, stupid and wrong and they must approach other people on demand, at force, simple because of some unwritten rule that people must like each other - as if narcissists, parasites, mentally ill sociopaths do not exist. This wrong advice of approach make SAD people to open their already porous borders to evil people. It does not give them filter or selection and it does not explain that you do not need other people to feel happy inside or make any decision on their own.
"Rejection makes you feel you are not good enough to make friends" No, it is not rejection. It is trauma and toxic shame. Fear of rejection is not SAD. Fear of criticism is SAD.
Until you make conscious unconscious it will direct your life - means our trauma is making decisions for us. Trauma is brain injury, it is etching in our brain, it cannot be fixed my our wishing well about it.
"Dig, come to term, find solutions to them, and start on fresh slate"
Dig - ok. Come to term - means accepting you are invalid, it is permanent. Without this brutal fact, without Stockdale paradox, you will not be able to go on - because as soon some serious trigger occurs, you will fall down. Trauma is pattern of inactivity and pessimism. Those two will occur again and again, and we have to live with it, not deny it.
Start on fresh slate - is wrong advice, because it signals our subconsciousness that we are inept, toxic shame and inner critic will exploit this advice to pack with trauma into general pessimism and depression. Better advice is - Wu Wei. This means, you accept yourself as you are. You accept your weirdness, your shyness, your thinking you are this or that and you celebrate it. Not everyone is unrealistic and fake wannabe instagram model. People love other people to be authentic and honest, not acting or fake pretending to be a model which is false, fake and unreal.
Trauma and person are mixed up, this is why it is important to accept trauma as a part of us, and move along and be optimistic on force.
"Introspection" - journaling is ok, it works. However, without external information (psychology and philosophy sources, quotes) it will result in paralysis analysis.
"if you want to hook someone in conversation" Why would I want to do that? People are not fish. People are not objects that I collect like Tamagotchi PC video game. People are not my game that I show off in my predatory room of triumph. This is narcissistic advice, for sociopaths. Second, people sniff out fake people, they sniff out people who are desperate and they see through if you come out as clingy - check again my imprinting above. This advice to connect and depend on other people approval, niceness and friendliness is advice to people please. It is being dishonest and not being authentic.
"small talk" Social anxiety is not lack of communication skills. This is typical mistake from motivators who skim this anxiety on surface. The real lack is here is the opposite- fear of engaging in confrontation and conflict, how to react quickly on provocation, how to not be allergic to people who like to argue and who see argument in everything since they do not know how to communicate themselves. And this lead to another fact: most people do lack communication skills. It is a rare occurrence. What we perceive as communication skill is acting, mostly from people who hide their inferiority complex by acting confident and superior to others.
"is gonna take a lot of practice" Just listen to yourself - it takes practice to be human? To be yourself? It takes practice to be normal? It takes practice to be genuine and authentic? This need to practice for other people is fishing other people approval. It is road to inferiority complex and being pushover. If someone does not like me, my talking, my opinions - this is his business. I am not here to convince other people to like me. That would be desperate and pathetic.
"feel the awkward" you are keep focusing on perception of other person. If I feel awkward - I do this in order to think what the other person will think of me. It is being obsessed with criticism from the other person. But from my perspective in social anxiety it seems as if I am afraid to be awkward. No, it is the other person, it is fishing for other person approval. It is locus on control being in other person, their opinion, their definition of what is awkward about me.
"Christmas party - rich girl" Social anxiety is not about parties (as much as Jordan Peterson talk about it). This is shyness and inferiority complex. Social anxiety is relentless criticism replay in your head - with a party or without party.
"I approach them" This again is not social anxiety tool or solution. People with social anxiety approach. They do face their fears. This part is not the ultimate problem, this fearing of awkwardness. It is toxic shame, a veil of everything is wrong and you are wrong by default. It is like going through life with handbrake on, it is like looking everything through a gaze. You move, you go ahead, you face fears - but toxic shame is lingering over you like a cloud, you are blocked and stutter with hand brake on. That is social anxiety.
"more you get them open up" - most people will not do that. They will perceive this as you invading their private space, their boundaries. Most people know about manipulation and narcissists - evil people who exploit your personal and intimate date for their gaslighting and exploitation. Especially borderliners do this on basis of being warm on the outside, inviting you to share and they dump their nagging onto you, and then use your intimate personal data to ashame you later.
"having open posture, standing up right, not fidgeting around, it shows them you are open being vulnerable to them, they will be more comfortable with you"
As I said, people with SAD have trauma. Trauma is connected and interlooped with personality. So it is your persona as anxious person to come out as Woody Allen. If we pretend to be something we are not - we will always be anxious and feel fear, it is loop of anxiety and uncomfortableness. Also, why I would be dependent on people to be vulnerable and comfortable and get them to like me? This is totally external referencing locus of control here. I have my own worth, the only person I need to get like me is me- how I come out to other people is on my decisions, it is not about forcing other people to like me. Some people are evil, some people are dumb, some people are childish, childredn stuck in adult bodies - they will never appreciate the intelligence and calmness of socially anxious person, even moreso they will exploit and rape other people kindness.
Unless you guessed it until now- social anxiety is not about talking with people. IT is about having trauma from fear of conflict with people. Making us to shut up and self censor ourselves and seek other people approval (external validation). So once we accept ourselves, our trauma that is etched in our brain, when we accept our self worth - then our expressing will come natural, and small talk, and speaking with people: it will be authentic and honest and genuine - not something I got instructed how to socialize.
People with SAD already have all the tools for socializing and having small talks and talking with people - it is only buried like a water on Mars. Toxic shame is the toxic veil all around us, making us look and perceive life as if through a gaze. Toxic shame is hallucination - it is not real, so it can go off and out of our mind quickly and easily. And then we can start to talk.
If it is simple and effective, can anyone share their experience how they fought with success?
Jordan Peterson does not know what social anxiety is. His statements are biases and logical fallacies, and he is prone to over-simplifications - which lead to distorted thinking and making conclusions based on lies.
Social anxiety is not lack of communication skills, it is trauma response. It is not lack of speaking to people, it is lack of confronting with people.
His overgeneralizations are worst seen in this horrible and totally unrelated advice to social anxiety that is counter-effective and detrimental actually.
He wants you to pay behaviorist therapy, more of his books, expensive therapies - to fix something that is not broken at all - talking with people. People with social anxiety cannot talk due to relentless criticism from dysfunctional childhood (Complex Trauma).
People who are silent are not weak. They know better, they are intelligent, and the have issue with external referencing locus of control. It is said that people hate truth. People with social anxiety speak truth and people hate it, they do not want to hear it. Problem is the society that wants fake people.
"moves forward despite that"
This is true, but it won't work on socially anxious people since with this clinical statement you abandoning the person's trauma. The correct statement that would work is:
"You have brain injury due to emotional abuse in dysfunctional childhood. and this injury will make you stuck, not moving, with intrusive worry thoughts along with negative pessimistic outlook in life. This will come default to you due to etching ingrained injury in the brain. Google: PTSD brain injury caused by narcissistic abuse). In spite of this, you are still able to move on, to do your task and jobs and goals and dreams by moving forward despite that"- now this generalized advice has a meaning that gives courage for person to move on despite anxiety, fears and panic. All people with trauma who are normal, kind, friendly and good and nice as person, as persona - will have issues with external referencing locus of control and this is another issue that demands enlightenment. He says nothing about it. Own self worth. HE says nothing about toxic shame - the negative motor that energizes this invisible wound inside.
And if we focus on people pleasing as problem - we put focus on it and we even make it stronger.
What I discovered is that people pleasing is not related to other people at all (even though it seems so at face value). It is about your problem with connecting and building and having our own persona. People with traumatic childhood, dysfunctional environment never grew up - they were programmed to serve and obey others. IT is like being stuck in imprinting process that Lorenz discovered - duck that are hatched would follow his yellow boots thinking it is their mother.
People pleasing is a symptom, it is not the thing that needs focus. The real focus is locus of control - that is the real problem here. Due to trauma, we learned to seek locus of control in external referencing, external validation, trauma bonding - and thus we match, mimic and align our emotions, opinions, thoughts with other people. This leads to people pleasing, being pushover, being unable to say no and being obsessed how other person is perceiving us, we are being obsessed what they think about us. So the problem is that we are not aware of this focus - it is wrong - due to programming from childhood and trauma. The correct and healthy focus is inside - intrinsical values - that I know what I think matters, that my opinions are ok, that my mistakes are ok.
The Altman's movie "3 Women" from 1977 show this process. Sissy Spacek is people pleaser, and she imprints her colleague Shelley Duvall at work as her guide. Later she finds that she can depend on her own, she found her persona, instead of giving the power to other people.
I couldn't. This was due to lack of information that people pleasing is locus of control - having external referencing instead of my own self worth. Toxic shame, trauma, CPTSD made me stuck in fears, anxiety and phobias - and naturally - I put decisions, opinions, thoughts into other people - that they guide me, since I carry a load of burden of trauma on my back. What I did not know - is I have a choice to be afraid, to have trauma and in the same time to talk and speak truth, my own opinion, my own values, my own thoughts. No one explained me in this way how internal locus of control works - nor that this concept exists in the first place.
1:38 "Consider intentions behind actions" - Am I doing it because I do want it or I don't want to disappoint others? Or I want to please others? None. It was about programming in the dysfunctional childhood where you are being gaslight and having relentless criticism 24/7 for every single thing, it is about having instructions from mentally ill person who does not treat its sickness - and having free reign of toxic shame on impressionable child that is in the process of developing its persona and unable to discern and label the emotional abuse as abuse. It is hypnosis. There is not something I want, or I do not want. IT is programming, to be slave, to be obedient, to serve narcissists.
2:13 "Identify my priorities, values and goals" Mission impossible with someone with trauma, emotional abuse and toxic environment that stems your buds of own priorities, values and goals as soon as they grow a little. IT is immediately cut off through toxic shaming process.
3:02 "Set boundaries" How could a person set boundaries when traumatized person never grew up in his body, and when external toxic shame was internalized as it is its own? People with trauma have no boundaries since locus of control is in other people, external validation and trauma bonding.
3:54 "Say what you want" Without information about trauma, this is very hard and abstract advice. Mutism is common response to emotional abuse in childhood and toxic environment. Self censorship is about having fear from sudden attack, criticism. So how could a person who has no locus of control inside internally say what that person wants? It is impossible. We need to shift focus to ourselves first in order to speak. To alarm and alert other person when they cross their boundaries.
4:20 "Validate yourself and your feelings" Once the locus of control is shifted to our own self worth this will be possible. IF we are not aware of external validation and trauma bonding, this advice will not work.
5:16 "Take time for yourself" People who are people pleasers already do take a lot of time for themselves, trying to figure out what is going on. Instead of walk, baking, time with cat - I would profit more from learning about psychology and philosophy. Freud Id, Ego and Super ego is describing that which is not in balance. Jung telling us that until we make unconscious conscious it will direct our lives. And this is what external referencing is doing to us.
5:43 "Be open to therapy or counseling" Many therapist have no idea about Polyvagal theory and emotional hijacking nor emotional dysregulation. Complex Trauma unfortunately is still not recognized officially by mental health industry.
7:13 "Try practicing more self compassion" For me, the biggest breakthrough was discovery of brain injury due to narcissistic abuse. This explains why I default to procrastination, fears, panic and pessimism. With this knowledge I realized it is up to me to move on despite feeling fear. I would wait for my brain to feel ok in order to move on, and it will never feel ok - but I have logic, common sense, super ego and intuition to guide me (instead of other people).
"communicate in clear, loving way"
What I experienced is that people who are rude and unkind - walk away. They do their transgression and turn their back and walk away, they do not listen and they do not care. And I end up being hurt and with pain. OR they start to yell, curse, being hysterical, throw temper tantrum and toxic shaming. I am talking about narcissists who can't take no as an answer. I am talking for situation where we can't choose people around us (due to Maslow needs - jobs, service, help, finances, shelter etc). It is about doing your jobs, tasks, not seeing disagreement as argument but being forced to interact with people who do.
I see that we can do everything perfect - being kind and honest - and still end up wrong.
This is where intrusive thoughts come into play. If I can't shake of unfairness and being judgmental and being right and proving other people right - I see it as trauma, not something to engage in and trying to resolve.
What I noticed that beneath shutting up and self-censorship there will be a sea of accumulated resentment. It helps to see resentment as virus, a foreign element.
In any case, I see definitely problem with locus of control - being pushover is having focus on other people as guide. And I can have locus of control inside me.
The reason why we stay with people who failed to reward you - is locus of control being in external referencing.
I would be careful with labeling in general. I would be careful with labeling others as "toxic". There are people who speak truth and it may annoy us - but this is not toxic. Truth can be shocking.
Instead of toxic people I use concept of External factor. This means, there are evil people who are manipulative, narcissists, exploiters, abusers, users - and they are very charming people, they appear far from toxic, at least in the start when you meet them for the first time - or during honeymoon phase. Toxic label can be misleading.
For example, imagine you are worker - and you are lazy. If you do not do your job, you will label your manager as toxic. He is paying you for your work. What if there is a third person who needs your service, but you are too lazy to help. In your eyes both manager and third person (customer) will be toxic. While in reality - you are the only toxic person here.
Another example - it is good to vent out and to speak about your troubles, that is healthy. And if you do that all the time, if you focus only on negative - you will find energy in whining and nagging - and with time in criticizing others. From your position you will see everyone as toxic - because they do not serve and obey you and they are not under your control. Without realizing , you are the toxic person because you feel entitled that world revolves around you.
Or Peterson Jordan example - he thinks that he helps people - but his words are full of oversimplifications which by definition lead to distortions, he is prone to overgeneralizations, and negating known concepts such as Maslow needs- he doesn't like something, he negate it, even though it is known and proven in psychology. That is toxic. Also he speaks of freedom of speech, while behind everyone's back he sues university for their freedom of speech. That is toxic.
I would take a guess that since trauma is intertwined and perplexed with personality, the answer lies here, where we already are.
For me, fawning is the major response - and I've learn this response exists only this year, I thought it was a caprice, a fluke, something weird behaviour that spring out of nowhere and it has nothing to do with my social anxiety. Without fawn - I would feel the most good in diplomacy - where my need to fix and rescue are put in a good use.
For you, I guess you like to run, which signifies you are warm person that dislike cold people and conflict, so obviously it is about voicing out if someone is cold and argumentative to stop it.
Or for that letter, she said that she is energetic, and likes to involve in talk - her persona is being extrovert. As I understand, when the other person is stubborn and unreasonable, it is natural reaction for normal and balanced person to withdraw. I would encourage conflict here. If her mom in law demands and crosses boundaries - it should be said out to back off. Without much drama and explosions in order to avoid fight mode.
Meditation - I learned from social anxiety PureOCD advice resources that meditation is not a good way to follow since it puts additional obsessive act in order to calm yourself down. IT is like if I do not calm down, if I am not able to produce serenity through meditation, for whatever reason, then I must panic - since I am not calmed down. So instead of facing fears or being active - I get stuck in meditation obsessively in order to deal with uncertainties.
Creating own thoughts- I would rather look at the reason why I would need this? What is creating negative thoughts? I learned through spending a lot, a lot of time, energy and money on seeking why - the reason was trauma, complex trauma. It is an etching in my brain - google images: PTSD brain after narcissistic abuse. This is where negative thoughts stem from. So it is ingrained in my brain - and so I have to accept this, like a Stockdale paradox. Accept brutal facts and move on, to be active - be optimistic on force. I need to rely on my common sense, logic, intuition, super ego, instead of waiting for my brain to feel confident, awesome, able to move, true - it never will due to trauma. I pick my brain up by my logic instead.
For some people - if they are toxic - low self esteem would be that they have no targets to exploit, no people to yell at and scream at in order to feel good, no one to criticize and nag - so they don't feel good about themselves.
Self esteem is centered in self. However,
I would not see "you" as bad thing. Most people are not toxic. They have empathy and care for other people a lot.
Also, psychologically speaking - this is connected to worth - good and nice people place their worth in other people - and this turns into people pleasing and being pushover.
I would place self worth back to self - which may entail logic and beliefs - as religious beliefs for example.
Worth can be external or internal / intrinsical. There is no third way.
Without this brain injury concept I would feel bad and sad when I would notice that I still have catastrophizing, overgeneralizations, mental filtering especially when I am triggered, afraid or anxious for whatever reason. Now I know I simply can notice it, do not fight it, and simply move on in the direction of my goals, dreams, task at hand. Without brain injury concept I would engage in worry and solving the unsolvable, creating more anxiety by thinking about anxiety and trying to find permanent solution - while there is none. It is permanent condition, but as I said, I can choose based on common sense and logic how to react and what to do next - moving on, shifting focus from obsessive worry to living my life, as the best solution.
And the definition of hallucination says it all: "an unfounded or mistaken impression or notion".
Toxic shame message for me was constant and relentless criticism, pinpointing every single mistake (which are natural and normal and expected in age where you learn) as the end of the world, catastrophizing and hysteria over unimportant issues. These are what I am aware and I could remember, I would take a bold guess and trust there were other faucets of toxic shaming as well. Toxic shaming is not hallucination. The strong and persistent belief that I am unworthy, inept and wrong by default - is hallucination, programming virus code from dysfunctional childhood.
20:00 " Mental cognition - learning to sit with our feelings, What happens to my body when i sit with this feeling of guilt" - for me, I feel yucky. I feel like I am in a cold sweat, and in the same time I have winter clothing on myself while standing outside in the rain and winter. It is like I do not feel the rain and cold but I feel yucky inside since it is wet - it is as Lisa said " wet blanket on your body".
This 'being aware what is happening and observing it from the distance' - I see it as concept to be used in brain injury concept - that I understand CPTSD created etching in the brain that will default to cognitive distortions thinking process, brain being stuck and trying to solve unsolvable, while I have to make mental cognition click and move on, on my own, without waiting the brain to feel ready, without waiting for brain to feel good enough to move on - because it never will. I use my logic, common sense and move focus on tasks, goals and jobs to be done, all the little things that needs to be done that I would not otherwise find time since I would engage in intrusive worry thoughts - that are stemming from brain injury etched in my brain due to trauma.
He totally ignores trauma, CPTSD. He talks only to rich kids, born with silver spoon in their mouth - and all the others - well his message is it is your own fault for your trauma, deal with it. He basically says if you have issues, you are lazy and tough luck. So he does not offer neither help nor service to people who can do nothing for him.
He is prone to over-generalizations and over-simplifications, mental shortcuts, biases and logical fallacies.
Psychological concepts such as Maslow needs he totally reject simply to fit in his distorted and twisted narcissistic fantasy world he created for himself. He is creating the generation of selfish, cold, ego-centric, sick individuals who only purpose in life is to serve and obey the rich and corporations.
It is best to ignore his statements, quotes, words.
This means, we can't wait for our brain to feel comfortable. We never will. For others it will be easy, for many it will be super easy to be discomfortable. But for us, with trauma etched and ingrained in our injured brain - we got to go extra mile, because every time we get back on our knees - our trauma injury will make us default back to comfortable zone - doing nothing, being stuck, worrying, having intrusive worry, trying to solve unsolvable issues in our head, not moving, not being able to shift our focus to our task at hand, our jobs, our goal and dreams.
Accepting this brutal fact that we will default to being immobile and being pessimistic - means we have to rely on our logic, common sense, our decisions, super ego, intuition and instinct to get us moving. We got to realize our brain injury is like driving through life with hand-break on. Other people do not have this obstacle in their motor system. We got to accept the fact that we have this inside us that will always hypnotize us into being comfortable, avoiding life and withdrawing from people, having obsessive PureOCD thoughts in our head and that we will always be pessimistic. This is why we can't rely on our brain to make decisions, it is up to our logic. Also, we have to be optimistic on force, no matter how yucky that feels - this is because our injury makes our brain unable to do it on its own.
That is what Steve Harvey is talking about. Now his words make sense.
We got to get out of our car that is stuck in the mud and push it in order to get it move again.
Instead of waiting to brain to feel good enough to move - which will never happen - we do it on based on our decision only.
"Normal" and "healthy" people do not have this trauma to drag them down, so it is easier for them.
Our trauma is external factor here and we have to take it into account and as a factor that will pull us down. Now his advice about anxiety and PureOCD have the real meaning. This part about trauma is often ignored by therapists, motivators, clinical personnel - and it confuses people with trauma (CPTSD, trauma that ingrained a brain injury due to narcissistic abuse).
That means we do not wait for our brain to feel good - it will never will - due to this trauma injury etched inside our brain, in fact it will bring us down. So it is up to our logic, common sense, super ego, intuition and instinct to make decision and to move on, be mobile, to be active and to shift focus on our goals, tasks at hand, with or without anxiety. We got to be optimistic on force.
Yeah, in my case I recognized this repressing mechanism as self-censorship. Later I learned this is called fawning. For example, I would be accused of things I did not do - and I know what is true, what really happened, but I would shut up. I would not defend myself. I thought I would hurt the other person if I speak up the truth. I was convinced that when I said what happened really - that the other person might feel stupid, so I tried to protect their feelings not to be hurt, that they do not turn out to be morons, because my unspoken facts seemed obvious to me - so I thought that they are intelligent enough to be aware of them, too.
Another reason was that I expected they will throw temper tantrum, so I tried to not to rock the boat, as if perceived peace of trampling all over me was worth not fighting over.
And in the end all I was left with feelings of severe inferiority complex, anxieties and fears.
Also, I was afraid of losing my temper - that I'd turn into Karen. Somehow I didn't understand that I do not need to be hooked into dynamics, as you said. I can tell my truth without yelling, screaming back at them. It is truth, I simply speak it out, without explosions and high conflict. Truth is truth, it does not require violence or wars or battles. IT is about voicing out the elephant in the room - something that is obvious yet no one speak it out.
I would trust experts from WHO. I know they are correct and they have no reason to be corrupt.
I would not trust experts from poor East European countries who tells us that mask do not help fight airborne viruses.
If you still do not get it, or do not understand it, it is because, as I said - you are sheep. You do not trust yourself the most. You reject your own mind, your own intellect, your own personality - and you simply mimic the people who you find stronger, better than you, stronger than you, more competent - because you were raised in strict, dysfunctional environment, and now you project this illness around you, by pontificating people around you. Well, it won't work with me, I see people like you immediately.
You put all your trust in other people hands, in this case in authority. You would fail Milgram Experiment. People like you are dangerous, really. You think of yourself to be a good and kind person, but you are hidden serial killer, waiting for another nazi or Stalin regime to support it from the comfort of your home.
Since you have Authority bias issues, I think it's best to agree to disagree. You are ego-centric.
Authority bias definition:
"Authority bias is the tendency to attribute greater accuracy to the opinion of an authority figure (unrelated to its content) and be more influenced by that opinion."
Social anxiety is not about talking issues you might have with people.
Having fears from talking is only one small facet of social anxiety. The main issue with social anxiety is trauma, CPTSD, being criticized in childhood in dysfunctional environment 24/7, being blamed for anything and being exposed to adult hysteria.
These are tips for mild form of shyness.
Social anxiety is relentless fear from conflict and confrontation, being afraid of being criticized or mocked, so it seems safer to avoid people and talking. Many people are aware of manipulators and narcissists - so if you start talking to them, people will be distrustful and take your queries as weird and potentially dangerous for them, they will find you annoying, since you come up as fake, non genuine and non authentic - because you are forcing yourself to talk. The result will be - you will avoid people even more. So this talking advice (taken from narcissists Jordan Peterson) is catastrophe and detrimental.
For me, the biggest breakthrough for social anxiety was realizing certain concepts in psychology. Such as ego-centrism and external referencing in locus of control.
Ego-centrism tells us that as adults we see everything in life from multitude of angles and perspectives. If we are not able to see that, we are prone to tunnel vision, and being exploited by sick people. External referencing tells us that we see other people as gods, while we are inferior. This is due to toxic shaming in childhood. Now, as adults, we put our own self worth in other people hands - this is why their comments and criticism hurt us so much, this is why their emotions have so much impact on ourselves. Instead - once we put locus of control inside us where it belongs, we will not longer seek external validation from other people, no more trauma bonding. Toxic shame is hallucination that appears real in our minds and it governs our thinking process - to hide, to shut up, to self-censor ourselves.
Also, there is external factor - which means there are evil people out there, whom only purpose is to exploit others and torture, steal from them and parasite upon them.
This is why this advice about talking with anyone is catastrophe. Kind, nice, friendly people attract narcissists like a moth to a flame. The chances are, you will attract monsters in your life if you have no boundaries, and if you talk with just about anyone, desperate for friends and relationship. Many people are either ego-centric (spoiled children trapped in grown man body), or non-diagnosed mentally ill or psychopaths. So it is not advisable for you to accept anyone in your life. This means you do not have self worth inside to trust you have something to protect and cherish inside you. You will allow yourself to be raped if you talk to just about anyone out there.
Avoidance is a symptom of trauma. If you do not feel comfortable around people, it is a signal you were exposed to mentally ill person or people in your life. This is not your fault. Avoiding means you are protecting yourself from trauma that psychopaths caused you. So avoiding is a good thing, it is not something you should cure.
What should be cured is Complex trauma, and once you realize you have own worth inside - socializing and talking with come naturally by itself. Without you forcing it out.
I realized...social anxiety is intermixed with personality. So Wu Wei seems to tell us - that we do not do things that go against our fears. Forcing ourselves to be extroverts while we are struggling with panic and fears - it is a part of herd mentality - "everybody is doing it so why can't I". This is why phobia exposure will not work in social anxiety case.
Exposure does not work. Counter-intuitively, the problem are not other people.
People with social anxiety already have all social skills. In fact, people without social anxiety lack them actually.
Avoiding people is our way of protecting the pain that trauma caused in our dysfunctional childhood - so not talking to people is protective mechanism, but also in a way that soothes our personality. We chose to avoid because it feels good to us.
If we were outgoing by nature, we would choose fight response and become anti-social.
People with social anxiety care for people and for friendships and for relationships. Therefore, we do not force ourselves to talk with people. The problem is not in talking nor in inability to socialize. The problem is in our anxiety and fears and phobia.
I see social anxiety as the result of trauma in childhood, being exposed to dysfunctional environment, relentless criticism and being exposed to adult hysteria that child brain is unable to process.
This trauma, being exposed to narcissistic emotional abuse creates physical brain injury inside our brain that will always default to being stuck, in PureOCD and being pessimistic. One way to be stuck is as you described - playing video games instead of engaging in our real life, jobs, tasks, dreams. We are like stuck in a mud, wheels are spinning but the car is not going anywhere.
So it is up to our decision, logic and common sense to guide us instead of relying to our injured brain that is producing anxiety thoughts. It is like we step out of the car and push it, so it is back on the road again. Mentally we shift focus from intrusive worry onto tasks at hand. If we shut up to rude people - this means that we speak back to them. Without explosion, just state the obvious, alarm and alert them. If we always stay with hysterical people as trauma response - then stepping out of the car in this case means - going away from detrimental people. Not enabling them anymore.
With trauma information and how to handle it - I realized - it is being authentic and genuine. That we talk, act, make decisions based on our Super Ego, instead of toxic shame and brain injury that is producing toxic shame. So - my logic, common sense and decisions, intuition and instinct will guide me. Not external validation, not external referencing.
I do not need to learn social skills - we already have them inside by now. Especially if we read many self help books and watched countless assertiveness videos.
This means - if I go out and socialize and talk to people (not because I want to fight social anxiety) - this is because I choose action (over immobility that brain injury is instructing me via default negative emotions, anxiety thoughts and panic feelings), it is a part of my goal, task at hand, changing focus. It is a part of my plan. It is not because I have to do it in order to prove something to myself or that other people may talk fondly about me and approve me and validate me. There is a difference behind the motive why would I socialize and talk to people.
Mere exposure is unhealthy - because if we are not aware of trauma bonding, mere exposure will only build up my inferiority complex - it will not go by itself. If I have external validation, I will care what people think of me, no matter how much I expose myself out there. The external validation is problem here, not the exposure. As Jung said, when we are not aware of our unconsciousness, it will direct our life and we will think it is our caprices.
I see social anxiety as something that is prevalent in intelligent people, people with empathy. People who are not ego centric, people who see everything in life from multitude perspectives and many angles. So we will naturally default to being quiet and nice and kind and avoid people - since evil, hurt and disappointment are natural side effects of socializing. And since we are intelligent and non ego-centric - we are acutely aware of this real pain that comes from socializing. I am talking about Hedgehog dilemma:;
"Being the prickly creatures they are, the hedgehogs are now stuck in a paradox: They'll suffer from the cold if they're too far apart, but they'll stab each other if they get too close. Here, the best compromise is to find a safe distance where their quills don't meet but the cold is still tolerable"
Therefore, social anxiety is normal reaction to abnormal people, to abnormal events, to abnormal situations. If the other person throws temper tantrum - they can easily control us if they notice that we shut up to them everytime they yell and scream. And this is exactly what happens to people with social anxiety. We attract sick people and they exploit us. This is why mere exposure is not healthy. We do not have boundaries, we are not aware that we put our self worth in other people's hands. Our goal would be simply to fight anxiety for the cost of forfeiting our self confidence, our rights, our decency.
Instead of other people, I would let my own Super Ego guide me, what is correct, what is right and wrong. Super Ego as collection of data and gathered data from all the sources and personal experience. And to me it seems to be wrong to force myself to talk with strangers - because strangers as I said, can be evil. They can be narcissists that do no deserve my kindness. Evil people manipulate others and cause them pain, parasite and exploit others. Forcing myself to make friendships will not work in reality - it will make me as a desperate, lonely and people will avoid me since I will appear over-bearing and clingy. Similar to Shelly Duvall's character in Altman's movie "3 Women" from 1977.
Social anxiety is when we put our own self worth in other people hands. Talking to strangers and forcing ourselves to socialize is paradoxically and counter-intuitively the social anxiety itself. It is social anxiety. Social anxiety will not go away with socializing. Social anxiety will not go away with brushing social skills and becoming a great speaker.
Social anxiety is symptom of trauma. Problem is not being unable to speak small talk themes. Problem is the opposite - it is being unable to confront, to engage in quick conflict with people, being unable to defend oneself. Being unable to have inner self confidence to look and appear as stupid, idiot, being unable to make mistakes and own mistakes. It is being programmed in our childhood to be perfectionists and to serve loud, obnoxious and aggressive people.
Instead of talking and socializing, the key to social anxiety release lies in our ability to love ourselves and that we do not abandon ourselves. It is being with us, with out self worth inside.
Talking with people and socializing while in the same time ignoring our self worth is the repetition of trauma - being abandoned. We would only abandon ourselves once again, as we were in trauma, when social anxiety started if we only want to talk to people for being desperate and lonely.
Talking and socializing comes naturally - once we are able to love ourselves and place our intrisic locus of control inside us - instead of putting it in external reference.
We were abandoned in childhood and now we repeat it as adults, we abandon our Super Ego and we put our own self worth in other people hands - thus other people hurt us easily and deeply. Avoidance is a way to protect us from feeling that pain - someone being critical, rude or aggressive.
The narcissistic abuse cause brain injury inside our brain and now it is etched inside our brain as default thinking process: being stuck in PureOCD intrusive worry and being pessimist.
The solution lies in accepting our default reactions and overcome it by our own decision, logic, common sense, intuition and instinct to take action, being optimistic on force and placing locus of control in intrisical values, instead of other people.
When I found it - it felt like 2001 Odyssey scene of thrown paleolithic bone turning into the space station.
I like their idea and concept that Earth is a sort of some kind of laboratory where evil and good co-exist together, but it is our responsibility to choose good. They describe evil as a virus that infiltrates the system and we are not aware it is inside us but we have to protect ourselves by being a good and choosing good, making accent to empathy as oppose to greed, entitlement and toxic positivity.
Their religious custom of wearing masks is very prophetic to todays covid epidemic.
Also, Zoroastrianism practice being honest, to be genuine and speak the truth, which is practically a solution to some cognitive issues such as social anxiety. In the same way as Buddhism and Chinese philosophy is used by Westerners to help concepts regarding mental health, the Zoroastrianism instruction to be genuine, honest and authentic is also beneficial.
Also it is indicative that Sumerians knew a lot of modern concepts, regarding the era when there was none, which tells us that their concepts are true and there is something special in their mentality and wisdom, that inspires new ideas and solutions that help development of people and civilization. Especially intriguing is depiction of Solar system and being aware that Earth was round, far ahead of Copernicus.
So the discovery of Zoroastrianism was a mind blowing for me, rather than Nietzsche.
As I see, Nietzsche took this truth telling and turned it into religion direction about God. This is because Socrates said that there is no absolute truth. It seems that ancient Greek philosophers were influenced by Sumerians, too. All 3 major religions of today spring from Zoroastrianism.
Regarding Nietzsche,
The truth is paradox, and we can stop paradox only by deciding in making limits and conclusions - that are ultimately wrong no matter at what point we stop observing them and decide what it truth for us. IT only depends at what point we break the paradox. Being aware the truth is paradox puts us in God's position, because most people are ego-centric and are unable to see anything from multiple dimensions and multiple angles - so for people who are unaware of knowledge paradox, the tunnel vision prevents them to realize the paradox of truth. This keeps them trapped in mental prison. Whereas Zoroastrianism is freedom of mind, breaking out of self-imposed limitation.
As Piaget and Vygotsky discovered in child development, they observed ego.centrism being the last stage of growing up. They said the intelligence is what we do when we do not know what to do. At this point evil can exploit the truth, because via toxic shaming evil people can control, hypnotize, ashame and gaslight unsuspecting people - people who are not aware that there is no absolute truth. I think this part about paradox of knowledge concept is what inspired Nietzsche about his 'Übermensch'.
Regarding Nietzsche obsession with God, I think he was merely confused. When we get clean from doing bad things and deciding to take actions which are based on good, it may seem that we are like God-like. This phenomena may have confused him, living in era without internet and modern psychiatry.
CS Lewis said it the best: "We are mirrors whose brightness is wholly derived from the Sun that shines upon us"
What Nietzsche experiences as being God, is only being mirror that reflects the intelligent design behind the scenes.
I noticed it is actually PureOCD, and CPTSD - it is being exposed to relentless criticism in my childhood, without being aware it is detrimental and as a child I've been exposed to adult hysteria that my brain was unable to process at the time - other than soaking it in and as introjection.
Also, since narcissistic abuse cause brain injury in targets, I realized I have trauma etched in my brain - which now defaults to two main patters: being stuck - having obsessive, intrusive worry that influences my thoughts, keeping me immobile and being pessimistic.
And as one commented here mentioned, secret to motivation is nothing mysterious - it comes down to relying on our logic, common sense, decisions to move and to be active and to be optimistic on force - since our trauma ingrained brain is unable to move on its own, it is stuck in the mud. Pure OCD tells us that we can't fight our intrusive thoughts, it will only strengthen them. The only way it to shift focus on task at hand, jobs to do, dreams I want. Also it is about shifting external referencing - placing my own self worth in other people, back to myself, having intrinsic motivation.
CPTSD tells us via Polyvagal theory that when we are triggered we are thrown in hyper-arousal state - and of course I will have fears, anxiety and worry thoughts that appear as inner critic when I am hyper-alerted due to people and situations that resemble to my original trauma that is now etched in my brain. My brain will default to worry - so I can't rely on my brain to guide me. Instead I shift my decision to Super-Ego for guidance, my inner GPS system.
thank you for video. It is topic that is crucial for mental health. Love the idea about the power of saying Yes! That is what the concept of shifting a focus from negative to positive is all about.
I've noticed that saying No is not always literally saying the word "No". It is also about speaking my mind, sticking to my opinion, having self worth inside me as oppose to seeking external validation. Which is hard when my locus of control due to Complex Trauma is shifted to external referencing, so I observe people as gods, while due to inferiority complex powered by toxic shame, I believe I am inept.
Also, I noticed there is external factor. I am talking about evil people - narcissists, exploiters, users, abusers, psychopaths and sociopaths - people who can't take no for answer. It is their way of highway. These kind of people also beat the dead dog. Such people cause brain injury in their targets if it is chronic.
And I noticed that my people pleasing habits act upon as a part of fawning - my default response to trauma. If I am not aware of Polyvagal theory - I am not aware that I am triggered, I am not aware of flashbacks and emotional dysregulation - so if someone comes as rude and demanding - my automatic response is fawning, people pleasing, saying yes. I am operating from amygdala at that moment and I am not aware the cortex is not in charge. And due to CPTSD, the brain itself is faulty - since the trauma is etched and ingrained in brain defaulting my thought process to intrusive worry and being pessimist. No one explained me that saying No is having all these mechanisms - so of course I would fawn.
Now I know that fawning has a good side - it is about keeping a job, friendships, balance and not rocking the boat, it is about diplomacy. But from trauma and CPTSD side - it means fawning is not suppose to be chronic and automatic response. Each person and situation is different and it demands its own response. From trauma perspective I never stopped and think what is my response. I always default to fawning and seeing others as superior.
With brain injury information I know that it is up to my decision, common sense and logic, intuition and instinct to shift focus and do what would my Super-Ego do - instead of defaulting to trauma and external referencing.
Another reason why it will never go - is for people with brain injury caused by narcissistic abuse, our brain will default to two patterns: being stuck with obsessive worry and being pessimistic.
So solution is relying on our decisions, common sense, logic, intuition and instincts including our mistakes as our guides, not the default response to trauma - fawning, freezing, fighting, flight.
Social anxiety is fear from criticism. IT is not being able to jump quickly to conflict and confrontation. Also, it is inability to observe Polyvagal theory - not being aware we are being triggered into hyper-arousal, hyper-alerted state, amygdala hijacking and emotional dysregulation.
I see social anxiety also as inability to be aware of concepts such as being trapped in external referencing locus of control. Social anxiety is the result of trauma, we were exposed to aggressive mentally ill people in our childhood, as kids we were not able to process being exposed to adult hysteria in other way than developing social anxiety as immature ego defense mechanism.
It means we adopted social anxiety as a way to both serve our personality and to handle narcissists and abusive psychopaths around us in our environment.
This means, we feel comfortable being quiet and listening others - because we are kind, normal and healthy people. The society tries to label us as mad and ill because we do not engage in hysteria. I would take Wu Wei concept - if we feel comfortable in avoiding people - I would not fight that. I would rather accept this aspect along with dealing with trauma that is causing the fears, panic and anxiety - which is Complex Trauma and toxic shame issues.
Complex Trauma tells us that we do not have own self worth inside us - we place it in other people. Toxic shame tells us that we believe in hallucination that we are inferior. I see social anxiety resolution in these two.
Brain injury as result of being exposed to hysterical people who never sought mental help - and now we have engrained etched trauma inside our brain that will always default to being scared and triggered to whatever resembles the original trauma. The brain will always default to being pessimist. So it is up to our Super-ego to take charge and do the opposite from engrained trauma: being active, shifting focus to do tasks, jobs, forgotten little things that needs to be done, facing our fears and exposing ourselves after we shifted our self worth back to intrinsic motivation, instead of people pleasing habits of placing self worth in other people hands, external referencing. It also means being optimistic on force.
There is something magical that happens when we realize other people are on par with us. We can start question them and we no longer see them as our automatic masters. This realization removes fears and panic and anxiety related to other people. It allows us to react and talk back alarm and alert them when they cross their boundaries. Social anxiety produce moral injury because we shut up to people and take it all in, for the sake of not rocking the boat and because we see other people as gods, due to external reference locus of control. External validation do not allow us to defend ourselves, we attack ourselves via inner critic. Someone throws temper tantrum and we obey them automatically. That is social anxiety. It is not about talking for the talk sake. it is not about being outgoing. Talking and being outgoing comes naturally, when we take other people from our throne, that was meant for our self worth. Then we naturally make decisions and take actions based on our interests, opinions, convictions, with mistakes included that we are no longer being ashamed of.
People think that people pleasing and saying yes and being pushover means actually saying yes - but it is the drive to be perfectionist that keeps the motor going (and spinning in a place , like being stuck in a mud or on ice).
I would support doing our best, doing whatever we can as much as possible - but if it comes from being observed and from fear how others will reacts - I would encourage even making mistakes at that point - to face the fears of other people. IT is social anxiety actually. Many people have no idea they have mental issues, they lack education and they mislabel their quirks, perks, caprices as quirks, perks, caprices while it is only a tip of iceberg of some trauma that is unresolved.
It is important topic for people who are afraid of other people's reaction that are possible dangerous. Especially for socially anxious folks.
I have realized that my fear of confrontation stems from trauma in childhood - being abandoned emotionally. As you said in 1:08
It is psychological conditioning and we are not aware of it every time we shut up and self-censor ourselves when someone accuse us of something untrue or someone stating some fact that we know is wrong and false.
That conditioning is true cause of issues with conflict. People who have issues with expressing their opinions were raised in strict environment, being criticized relentlessly 24/7. It is about being programmed to serve and obey narcissistic authority figure by renouncing my ideas, opinions, statements and queries as totally irrelevant, stupid and absolutely unimportant. And we were toxically ashamed for making mistakes which are normal especially if something is done for the first time. Now as adult we respond automatically to rude and aggressive people through fawning as inferiority complex - without even taking into consideration that this person might be wrong. Some people use toxic shame in order to control us, they trigger our trauma and we feel guilty for being wrong or making mistake, or making a fool out of ourselves as if it is the worst case scenario happening.
Philosophy from Socrates helped me realize that there is no absolute truth out there (Paradox of knowledge) - so no one can be correct in everything all the time. That realization gave me a space to create autonomy and consider the possibility that my own knowledge and experience may be on par with person who is rude, aggressive, loud, obnoxious, that appear competent and better in my eyes.
However to make things more complex, I realized that being exposed to narcissistic abuse early on in childhood created brain injury inside me that will default to PureOCD intrusive worries and pessimism that will always dominate over my thinking process- thus putting me in an inferiority position at the start. This means, I will fawn whenever my fears are triggered to any situation similar to trauma from childhood - someone yelling, screaming, having temper tantrums.
Fawning itself is not wrong - it is option to diplomacy and making friendships or finding solutions and negotiation - everything that Glasser encourages as connecting habits.
However when it is automatic and done every single time in any situation - then fawning is trauma response and it is detrimental. Automatic and relentless fawning is causing moral injury and mental instability.
I've been researching and following resources related to social anxiety - and only when I discovered Complex Trauma I made some progress.
Complex trauma explains the emotional abandonment in childhood that we repeat in adulthood by putting self worth in other people hands locus of control.
Also, it explains brain injury due to trauma - this explains why fears, fawning, hyper-arousal, amygdala hijacking, emotional dysregulation will always default when triggered to people and events and situations similar to original trauma - because it is etched in brain. So it is up to our logic, common sense, decisions and intuition, instincts, Super-ego to guide us instead of relying on our brain which is stuck in a rut, in thinking loop of PureOCD intrusive worry cycle and immobility. The obvious solution is to be active, to make tasks, goals and dreams no matter if brain doesn't feel like it, it is about shifting focus, with or without worries on my mind, being optimist on force - and that is also the solution for social anxiety as well. We can't wait for our brain to get better - it will never will. We figuratively step out of the car and push it, so it gets on the road again, out of the mud where it spins its wheels in one place. This healing concept would never come up if I did not discover and learned about CPTSD.
Yep! Confirmation Bias.
We have plethora of biases and logical fallacies and we are not even aware of these mental shortcuts that we are creating all the time to make sense of reality and life, quickly - in order to make decision that are demanded from us. This then infiltrates our shoulds, obligations, rules, caprices, perks, quirks without us ever noticing we are creating delusions that appear real to us.
I realized that emotional flashbacks, intrusive worry - it is addiction. This is why it is hard to shake it off, it is stuck like a leech. The body is producing synchronized chemicals, hormones inside our body and we become addicted to them and they keep us stuck in worry and fears.
Complex Trauma, and social anxiety is only a symptom of it.
Now, inconvenient question for psychologists, mentors, authors, motivators is - why they neglect the trauma focus away from people who suffer from fears, panic and anxiety. Without putting focus on trauma - they recreated and repeated the abandonment that sufferers felt via social anxiety. They put focus on fear symptoms and made fears look crazy, insane, abnormal - which is abandonment itself. We are once again being told that our response, our persona, our personality is wrong and crazy, we were being blamed for our trauma by experts in psychology.
Once the brain is re-regulated, the fears will vanish by themselves. Fear symptoms do not need to be drugged down and stifled with pillow. Once we realize what is amygdala hijacking, we no longer have to react to panic with panic, we know it is body thing, it is not abnormal, fear and panic is normal reaction to abnormal people, to abnormal situations, to abnormal events.
IF you are jerk to someone, you can expect that people will react alarm and alert you.
If you are rude just because you are narcissists, you will use temper tantrums as a way to control other people.
So as usual Jordan Peterson is making over-generalizations and over-simplifications as a way to explain reality - but it leads to distortions of reality.
The truth is - people who are too nice are not because they want to. People pleasing is addiction - it is regulated by trauma and body hyper-arousal which is pumping hormones and chemicals inside the body - making the target addicted to people approval and external validation. This is something he should speak about - but he doesn't. - It is because he doesn't know anything about psychology. He only knows how to speak to attract the masses, delude them and give them advice that doesn't work.
Biases + logical fallacies as mental shortcuts. We are literally creating ourselves a fantasy word of delusions and illusions without being aware we have a veil over our eyes, or looking through a gaze.
" I firmly do believe that you can create new mental habits,"
Yeah, this "always" part is that was a big revelation for me. IT is a little bit complex to explain and controversial.
I see that brain injury is caused by being exposed to narcissistic abuse and now is etched in my brain - so therefore due to this trauma injury my brain will default to being stuck with obsessive worries & anxieties and being pessimist. This is a hard pillow to swallow, but it is brutal fact. IT is Stockdale paradox.
Before, I had a fantasy idea that there is somewhere a magic pill that will solve all my fears, that somehow there is something magical that will help me that I only need to read or do in order to never feel panic and negative emotions.
As my social anxiety remained no matter what I did, read of followed, I realized that it won't. There will always be triggers, there will always be rude people out there that will trigger me to be afraid and to fawn.
With this fact, now I have, as Viktor Frankl said - the ability to change myself - since I am cornered from the all sides.
Which means, instead of following my brain injury that defaults to fears and negativity, I can choose my decisions, logic and common sense to guide me. It is like I need to step out of the car and push it so it is no longer stuck in the mud.
This is where new mental habit steps in - as ability to shift focus on tasks to be done, instead of worrying. To force myself to be active even though I do not feel like it. That I trust my instinct and intuition and logic, instead of my brain that will always default to being passive and catastrophizing.
This separation between brain as the producer of fears and avoidance - versus my logic and common sense is the new mental habit. It is a Cognitive defusion.
While I was making Social Anxiety Map video yesterday - I had realization that I didn't put in video - that the fears and worries that I have when I have to confront someone - also stem from this brain injury.
The brain is producing chemicals, hormones - adrenaline - and brain by default seeks pleasure and safety as its priority. This means, being afraid of conflict and confrontation is actually - being addicted. Brain drugs itself into being emotionally hijacked, then regulates the fears through chemicals inside the body. So - people pleasing and being pushover - and being codependent is actually addiction - as it is being told by many motivators here on You tube.
This brutal fact is similar to brain injury - it simply means that we can't trust our brain when we are scared. The brain is lying to us. The anxiety is lying to us. It uses addiction, chemicals, it hijacks our amygdala - so no wonder that we fawn and avoid conflict and confrontation.
And at this point - new mental habits step into play. Being aware that these overwhelming fears are the result of addiction and brain injury, brain being non functional - gives us freedom to allow out logic, common sense and knowledge to guide us, instead of relying to our brain to feel calm enough - which it never will due to brain injury and addiction to safety.
For me personally, this discovery was huge, since I feel better when I know what is going on "under the hood".
Now I know that I can stand up for myself because the images, flashbacks, fears and worst case scenarios that my brain is scaring me - are actually false. All the beliefs that I am inept - it is false. Toxic shame is hallucination.
Paradox of knowledge tells us that there is no absolute truth. My injured traumatized brain would tell me that the other person is automatically correct, experienced and better than me, so I should shut up and never defend myself or my opinions.
I have read so many self help books, psychology resources, texts about calming down and how to handle fears - but knowing that the brain has injury inside - shifts perspective. It makes me no longer wait for myself to feel good enough to do anything. Now I know I have to do what I want, what I need and what I dream about. I can alarm and alert other person when they speak nonsense or accuse me of something untrue. So, I can't wait for my brain to pick me up, I have to pick my brain up. This was missing link that hindered any excellent advice that I would hear up till now about assertiveness. I think this is important aspect and concept for people like me to learn, people who want to know the truth and how stuff works.
Without understanding this brain injury concept, I would simply give up at the first sign of fear, panic, depression or any obstacle - because I would interpret it as given advice doesn't work. I would rely on my brain to feel good, which is obviously never going to happen.
Freud divided our mind in Id, Ego and Super-ego. He said that Ego is functional when it takes into consideration his Super ego and id needs.
Fearful me would have External reference and seek other people for guidance - which would cause fear of conflict, since I see others as my gods.
With brain injury, now I understand that I repeat the trauma by abandoning my trust in my self worth and I place it in other people. Therefore, the solution is to put self trust in myself, intrinsic motivation as guide. My Super-ego (collection of all data and knowledge and mental habits that I learned) is what I need to follow.
Fearful me would listen to my brain that is injured - and this prone to worry and negativeness and to other people for guidance in everything.
Brain injury concept tells us that we should put our trust in functional mental habits and understand that the reason why we do this - if we are prone to being hyper-alerted and hyper-vigilant, anxious and feeling inferior to others all the time.
I apologize for long post, I find this topic fascinating and important-- and complex to explain.
And this turns into brain injury, narcissists cause brain injury in their targets.
Brain injury manifests itself as being stuck in worry loop and being pessimistic. I found out this after I realized that my social anxiety is actually a symptom of Complex Trauma. I realized that my brain will always default back to these two patterns of thinking, so therefore I have to rely on my common sense, decisions, logic, intuition and instinct instead- since my brain, my body and my anxiety is lying to me. The solution is to be active, to talk back, to defend myself and to be optimistic on force, since my brain is stuck in an injury loop of PureOCD.
From social anxiety perspective - it is then obvious why people cause so much pain and fear. Either other people are triggering the original trauma (through their yelling, screaming, temper tantrum) or people refuse or have counter opinions which seem like betrayal - since it is the result of being conditioned into codependency.
"When we are away from abusive environment, that is when we are finally able to grow, develop autonomy, when we have no tyrant over our shoulder and judging our every move."
This is why brain injury was revelation and huge discovery for me. I realized that even though I made distance from narcissistic environment, the injury stayed along with me. Fears, panic, inferiority complex - it was always inside me. I would read great advice how to handle fears, panic, intrusive thoughts, social anxiety - and with time I would default back to black. And all the time I did not know why neither I was aware I was defaulting to my injury in brain due to being exposed to relentless criticism in childhood and then seeing everything as criticism later on, and being very sensitive to any kind of criticism as adult.
"That's what they do. Narcissists are always picking. There is always something that you could do better. You're always guilty of something"
Yep. If you do as they said, they will complain and nag about that. It is always the opposite. I learned this summer this is because narcissists are mentally ill. They have imaginary world that is shifting and changing in sync with their own unresolved trauma, as they are triggered. If they are in the bad mood, they feel better when they abuse others around them. That is their method how they relieve the stress, though abuse. And some people react to that abuse by abusing others, it is like a virus - it spreads.
"Break pattern"
For me, it helped to realize that there is no absolute truth, and anyone can see 6 while it is 9 if looked from upside down. Then I realized concepts such as external referencing locus of control - which made me realize I made other people into gods, while I can bring back my self worth to myself. Also concepts such as trauma bonding and fawning as automatic response to trauma helped me realize to break the automatic pattern of people pleasing, being pushover.
"You have to know what to say"
I realized that narcissists hate transparency. So the solution is in being honest, authentic, speaking the facts and being objective. Voicing out the elephant in the room.
Yeah I also realized that mistakes are ok, that I will make mistakes and that I won't be perfect either in my defense or in speaking out or doing any job that attracts other people criticism.
"The only people that will be upset about boundaries are the people who benefit from us having none. If someone gets mad it is more proof that boundaries were needed to begin with."
Oh, yes, thank you! Thank you for the vid!
I realized that the difficulty about having guilt and shame is connected to brain injury - it is thus a body thing, it will default back to shame and worry - so it is up to my thoughts to shift focus on task at hand, not the worrying. And also - there is another reason why worry about criticism feels like intrusive thought that is stuck as a leech - is addiction. Our body is pumping chemicals and hormones to keep us safe. And we as you said were conditioned to people please. So our chemicals inside our body regulate us to be in fear and to be pushover and to react to people as people pleasers automatically. Our body is working our best interest. It is like we are at war with body system inside us. We want to defend ourselves when someone accuse us of something untrue, but our whole body orders us to freeze, fawn and shut up and obey.
"Sixth sense moment. It is like red pill"
Yep. I did not know what borderliners are - only after I read they like drama and conflict, that everything fit into place, all the mess and chaos I've experienced with borderline person at work. If I knew that person was borderline, I would not engage, I would not get friendly and involved in any deeper level other than doing job. Without education and with no boundaries, I invite toxic people to walk right inside.
"It is not brutal to have boundaries"
That is important to hear for people pleasers, because we were hypnotized into believing we are monsters and crazy and abnormal if we react to unfair situations, unfair, aggressive, unkind and violent people.
Speaking from socially anxious perspective, I did this as automatic response, so I ended up with social anxiety.
I also realized that I tend to over-generalize and I interpret certain innocuous talk or actions from other people as aggression. This is explained in Jared's video. That we were conditioned to be unable to take criticism and interpret it as act of war. Everything and everyone will appear toxic to us. That is what codependency make it so devastating - it limits our lives. It limits our friendships and romantic interest.
Also, there are people whom you can't walk away from so they abuse you. And social anxiety and codependency will make us shut up and self censor ourselves which lead to moral injury and as I understand also to physical illness if chronic.
We can't sometimes leave narcissistic because of money, shelter, service, help, finances, Maslow needs etc so we are stuck with someone who is nagging and complaining and criticizing all the time about everything relentlessly.
Since I investigate social anxiety for 30 years now, I realized that there is a common rule, general rule that will help us to deal with tough people - and that is as Zoroastrians said - to be honest, genuine, authentic, to speak the truth. Shutting up and self censorship is illness, it is part of programming from mentally ill people. Voicing out the elephant in the room is the way out.
Being critical will not work. IT doesn't work neither with healthy people nor with toxic people. Glasser discovered this concept. It is about negotiation, listening to others. IT is about facing the person with what they done. Being authentic, honest, speaking the truth. Being brutally honest, voicing out the elephant in the room. Being transparent, being objective, stating the facts - without explosions, without drama, without attacking, without being rude. Just plain facts. And see how the other person will lie more and more - thus you speaking more and more truth until they can't lie anymore.
I see that as solution. AS Shakespeare said - Be just and fear not. If we did not do anything wrong, if we do not wish ill will to others, there is no reason why we should shut up, self censor. And if we want compromise instead of blaming and hurting others - that is the correct way.
"They can feel our shift. They may not be able to verbalize it, they can feel it."
"People resent being told or shown they are incompetent. When you rescue adult you are by definition telling them they are incompetent and we are competent. That's always going to bring up somebody's defenses."
Oh yes,
this is something that was behind the hill, rolling and rolling around,
It is like Wizard of Oz moment. People who are feeling codependent feel incompetent and that they can't handle life - while in fact, this is illusion, a hypnosis, a hallucination. They are far more competent, far more intelligent, that the society cannot handle it so they scare us into submission from early on, when we are not ready - in order to kill our intelligence, to shut it up.
It is the same as paradox behind confidence - you can only be confident when you accept yourself being incompetent.
Or the paradox of social anxiety- people with social anxiety are repeatedly being told by theorist, motivators (such as Peterson) that they lack social skills, and this supposedly lack of communication and social skills is the source of social anxiety - while in fact, the truth is that socially anxious people have far superior social skills than most of people, in so much that it is on the invisible spectrum of social skills bar. And people who do not understand social anxiety, it seems that the person is inept to handle social life - being silent, afraid, having physical symptoms (which are all cause by complex trauma). Not even mental health professionals are looking into CPTSD to treat social anxiety.
For me, my issues with codependency is the belief that I cannot handle extreme and tough and hard situations in life - so it is better to rely on other people - that they decide what is the best to do, to say how to handle and react to crazy situations and crazy people. While all the time I had it in me, I know what to say, I know what to do - it is intelligent, it has empathy - and many people won't approve it due to their evilness and their unhealed complexes. IT is just that I lack belief in myself and I put worth in other people hands automatically.
I love this:
"You can still fawn, you can still be codependent, what you are not allowed any more from this point - complain about it".
"Drama exists when we are inside drama triangle".
"We were raised like that , we would believe them, we would stop trusting intuition and our gut"
"You do know, you don't have pretend any more"
I see easy solution - being honest, being blunt, voicing out the elephant in the room, being authentic, not shutting up, not self-censoring ourselves.
---
Actually, I made huge leap when I discovered Complex Trauma concept. This discovery was Quantum leap for me. I have been convinced for so long that my only and exclusive problem was Social anxiety and Avoidance. I have been spending decades researching this topic - reading about self esteem and assertiveness - to no avail. There is absolutely no information it is rooted in trauma and that flashbacks and triggers are part of CPTSD. In social anxiety prescriptions and recipes - the sole focus is on the symptoms - which of course never go away with proposed techniques, since trauma is broadcasting them, not the social situations only.
With Complex trauma I learned healing concepts about external referencing, fawning, Polyvagal theory, introjection, amygdala hijacking, trauma bonding - and this helped me a lot. I find You tube as excellent resource for help, and this comment section, too.
Nope. This is toxic guilt. Under the realm of CPTSD - There is no coping mechanism - it is imposed guilt, injected guilt, it is implanted guilt. IF you try to "cope" with it - you are engaging with it, you are sucked in, like in a black hole. It is not healthy to engage with toxic guilt.
It is healthy to distinguish healthy and unhealthy guilt.
Normal and healthy guilt is directed at the wrong action - that is mended by trying our best and learning on mistake.
Toxic guilt is directed as manipulation, as a control, as a hypnosis, it is evil, it is a tool of narcissists and mentally ill people to exploit and parasite over kind, nice, friendly and good people, unwitting people who are open to others and have no borders or any boundaries to filter out the bad people out.
People with Complex trauma have been traumatized by narcissists and mentally ill people early on to serve and obey authority figure - and this programming is done through imposing and implanting excessive amounts of unhealthy guilt. It is being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7, it is beating the dead horse, it is a child that is exposed to adult hysteria and being unable to process this as lunacy - so the child introjects this inside and internalizes hysteria as own guilt, that is child's fault for not being perfect.
I find this external validation as the core for social anxiety disorder, and for some unknown reason, the social anxiety resources do not talk about this concept at all, they focus on the symptoms..
With more investigation I learned two other concepts that cement external referencing:
1) brain injury due to trauma - so the brain defaults to thinking worry loops and being pessimist and
2) addiction. Our body is pumping chemicals and hormones inside that regulate our anxiety and fears , and brain tries to keep its safe- while due to Complex Trauma conditioning the brain learned that we can't trust and we can't express ourselves, so body reacts to see other people as gods , and body feels good when others approve us - and feels horrible when we receive criticism.
So no wonder that other people's thoughts, other people's words have so much impact on our fears and anxiety and thought process, it feels like a leech is stuck and you can't shake it off. Someone criticize us and we can't stop thinking about it, feeling bad about it, with waves of toxic shame inside. For me personally, external referencing was displayed as me shutting up and self-censorship, which caused me moral injury issues, which is very painful to bare. I am talking about being accused of something untrue and unjust, I know what to say to defend myself - but I shut up as a belief that I must be kind and nice person and that I must not hurt others with the truth, being honest and voicing out the elephant in the room. I've learned in toxic environment that if I speak something and confront someone that it must come out as explosion, drama and temper tantrum - so I concluded it is best to shut up , as if there is no alternative in a form of speaking out the truth and being honest and authentic without explosion and drama as explained in this video at 13:30
It changes the perspective. With injury concept, our caprices, perks, quirks, seemingly unrelated anxieties and fears have a meaning, it is connected and we can change the attitude, it becomes so much easier to stop worry, it makes it much easier to change focus on something healthier other than being hyper-alert and trying to figure out why I am feeling terrified when something or someone triggers me. Now I know- it is injury due to trauma, and it is up to me to pick myself up. My brain won't do it. I will never feel good enough, happy enough to feel good enough and happy enough due to trauma injury - I no longer wait for things to pass on its own and I know what I can expect if triggered. It is no longer shock and drama that repeats itself in cycle.
Without injury information I would sit and wait for something magical to happen and that I need to search for some magical wand that will fix everything. Now I know it is in my hands to fix it, I no longer need to be codependent on someone or something "better" than me to regulate my fears and anxieties.
I simply shift focus, move away from worry loop and be active instead, doing chores, task at hand, jobs that needs to be done, dreams I want to do, and to know I need to be optimistic on force, since my brain is unable due to brain injury that defaults back to pessimism. This makes this injury concept to helpful, paradoxically accepting the brutal fact of having invisible injury inside gives us strength to live again without waiting for some magical rescuer that will never come.
It is about moving on - changing your focus. It is not about forgetting it, neither trying to forget- since this act will only cement the evil in our minds. It is about remembering to do the task that we would forget otherwise, by being focused on intrusive worry all the time, thus being our only preoccupation. Shifting focus does not mean running away- we all have our small tasks to do. Small chores to do that needs to be done. Dreams that we want to do. They all wait to be done when we fret and when we are obsessing about things that worry us that we cannot control, handle, manage or do anything about them except thinking about them. Some people are not aware they are thinking about them. Some people are not aware they have intrusive thoughts. It is simply the main and the only focus in their lives. That is what letting go means. Being aware we have intrusive thoughts - and then simply shifting our focus in engaging our actions to things that needs to be done around us, unrelated to worry thoughts.
I think it is the response to possible criticism, which is connected to unfamiliar people but not necessarily. That is why people with social anxiety will feel uncomfortable even with members of their family if the members are rude and critical chronically.
"Develop negative beliefs"
I would label this as toxic shame. I discovered that it is easier to understand what these beliefs actually are when it is labeled collectively as toxic shame - thus it is easier to reject it as hallucination.
"anticipatory anxiety"
I realized this intrusive worry is a part of Polyvagal theory: hyper-vigilance, being hyper-alerted, being emotionally dys-regulated and it is a sign of addiction - our body produce chemicals, hormones that prepare us for imaginary danger, triggered by people or situations similar to original trauma that caused social anxiety. We are literally being drugged by our own body and we are not aware of it.
Once I am aware this is a body thing, that is is addiction - as any other addiction to drugs or alcohol - it is easier to perform cognitive defusion and focus on other things away from intrusive worry. It makes it easier to direct my decisions and focus - without trying to reject it or fight it (which would make it only stronger - pink elephant example).
"I based this anxiety on variety of predictions"
I realized that these predictions are not regular thoughts as they appear to me, and they are in fact synthetic, they are almost implanted memories - that are stemming from chemicals, hormones that are being released in my body due to constant hyper-vigilance. When I am aware that my anxiety is lying to me, I can easily notice it as lie, and reject in a specific way - by focusing on task at hand, chores I need to do, or my dreams I want to do. Cognitive defusion technique, ACT and ERP.
"people become so focused on their anxiety"
Not in my case. I focus, I zoom in to other people due to external referencing locus of control, trauma bonding and lack of belief in my own self worth. This means, I desperately seek external validation. Other people's words stuck on my like a leech and I can't shake it off. Especially if they are rude, angry, distressed and violent and - critical, criticism as pattern. Then, any criticism from others hurts me deeply and it is painful because I seek in detail other people emotions, their reactions and I attach it all that is coming from them as my own - because my worth is placed in their hands.
Thanks to Complex Trauma information, I see solution to social anxiety - putting back value to my intrinsic values instead. That means, being fine and ok with being stupid, fool, wrong, mistaken. Social anxiety is part of Complex Trauma.
"magnifying glass that is examining what is inside of me"
Nope, it is more like magnifying glass that is examining what is inside of other people and I transfer it as my truth, something I must obey, follow. Their reactions become my guidance. Their words become my orders - inferiority complex. Their opinions become my own absolute truth I must believe as only reality. Such distorted beliefs are the core of social anxiety.
"not paying attention to other person"
My reaction to trauma is fawning. This means a lots of people pleasing behaviour coming from me, being pushover, smiling when someone bullies me and pretending I am ok with abuse. It is paying one and only attention to the other person, and it is happening a lot. It is seeking in detail what other person will say or react. Social anxiety is a fear from criticism. Social anxiety is the result of narcissistic abuse in childhood, complex trauma - being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and being exposed to adult hysteria of mentally ill person which child brain is unable to process - other than developing disorder, being stuck in trauma.
"post mortum -everything I perceived went wrong"
I realized my post mortum is everything that the critic said. It is replaying over and over in my head, like a broken record, their words, how should I behave, and it is intermixed with toxic masculinity to make it more complex - that I should be fighter, that I should fight back, curse them, get in conflict with them to prove my point. Especially if the critic was rude and I was in situation where I didn't know how to do something perfectly and it was expected of me to be perfect and perform without mistakes. Social anxiety is inability to respond to conflict, social anxiety is not being able to respond to rude people - due to trauma, where we were abused in childhood.. We were programmed as children to be slaves to narcissists.
"Evidence how other people will likely to view me"
To me it is intrusive worry how other people will treat me. It is not about them viewing me as wrong, it is that I know they hate me and that I will be attacked by them if I do not obey or perform perfectly, if I do not know something without mistakes, or simply because I exist and I bother them. Social anxiety is result of brain injury. It is being stuck in intrusive worry loop and pessimism. The solution therefore is to rely on my decisions, logic, common sense, intuition and instincts to guide me, instead of my brain, that has invisible trauma injury inside. Once I am aware that there is no absolute truth and that I can place worth back to myself - I can realize I can make mistakes, and that I can rely on my intellect, experience, knowledge and all information that is gathered in my Super-Ego - instead of seeking it all in other people, from other people.
Social anxiety is the result of my unconscious decision how to handle the aftermath of narcissistic abuse and toxic environment with my own personality that seeks friendships, negotiations, Glasser's connecting habits, diplomacy, peace and psychological security. Therefore, if something reminds me of original trauma - my body will choose avoidance and signal social anxiety symptoms as alarm for me to go away from the danger.
Social anxiety is perfectly normal reaction to abnormal situation and abnormal people.
Problem is not my symptoms, the problem are hysterical and mentally ill people.
People with social anxiety have excellent communication skills. Problem is not the lack of communication skills - rather the problem are other people who lack communication skills.
For anyone interested, I made a video called "Social Anxiety Map".
Also, I made a quick video what is wrong with CBT. It needs upgrade.
That is amygdala hijacking. It transforms our persona like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde but we are not aware of transformation. Our body is regulating us to be in fear mode and we are not aware. Trauma trapped in our body wants us to keep safe, to avoid people. Toxic shaming from childhood keeps us trapped into believing we are worthless and we must not trust ourselves, but rather rude and aggressive people as our guides (since we were abused by the same).
Good exercise would be expressing ourselves- speaking out our opinions, not to self-censor ourselves - see what happens when you speak your truth. People with social anxiety are intelligent, they are far more intelligent than most of people, that is why they are annoyed by us, people do not like truth or being told what is wrong. People like to live in their delusions. Problem is that our body and childhood conditioning is making us distrust ourselves thus depersonalization happens.
Take care, you are not alone with this imposed crap by mentally ill people from our past.
Google "Complex Trauma".
I wasted 20+ years on researching social anxiety and avoidance.
In a year I made more progress after I pinpointed that social anxiety is a part of Complex trauma- as oppose than in 20 years following circular reference about social anxiety that unfortunately handle only physical symptoms as the only problem. Official resources for social anxiety sets us up for fawning, to people please and to be pushovers.
IT is related to my shocking discovery that social anxiety is the result of trauma (cptsd).
All this time I was convinced that my social anxiety is a caprice, a fluke, a quirk,, perk. I saw it as something that is not important to investigate other than casual book or article about it once in a while. So to my shock, I learned that
Trauma created invisible brain injury inside our brain. This injury makes us getting stuck in intrusive worry and being pessimist.
So the solution is to rely on our decisions, logic, common sense, intuition, instinct, gathered knowledge, super-ego - to focus on other task, goals to do, dreams I want to do. It is like being stuck in a mud, with wheels spinning - so I need to step out of the car and push the car, since our brain is unable to do this push.
Once we are out of mud or ice, we can drive our car again - by relying on our common sense, rather than on our brain, body. Since there is brain injury, it means it will come back, it will default back to immobility and negativity, automatically seeing catastrophe in everything.
For me, my default reaction to trauma is fawning. So my anxiety is related to situations where I am unable to express myself. I fawn, I see other people as competent, while I am inferior. So my anxiety have this recurring theme of shutting up and self-censorship. Someone accuse me of something not true, I do not defend myself. Someone abuse me - I smile back to them because I was programmed to be nice and kind and friendly.
So my anxiety will warn me - that this is unhealthy reaction.
I should speak my mind. If i am not violent and if I am kind to others- there is no reason why I would not express my thoughts in calm manner without drama.
---
This was a huge discovery for me. It means we can shift focus away from seeking validation and approval. Narcissists, psychopaths, difficult people that trigger us usually are rude, unkind and they do things that are unfair, they lie and accuse us of something untrue - and instead of addressing this, instead of documenting their abuse - we engage in people pleasing due to chemicals in our body that condition our response. As we learned during complex trauma in our childhood, we repeat the trauma, we abandon ourselves and we focus on other people to please them. We were programmed in childhood to act like that.
That what makes it hard.
When someone triggers us, we automatically fawn. We forget to state facts. We forget to alarm and alert other person because we believe we are not worthy enough to defend ourselves.
The solution is to rely on our intellect, on our decisions, common sense, logic, intuition, instinct, knowledge, super-ego - instead of relying on our brain to wait it will feel good enough to get us unstuck from intrusive worry and pessimism. It never will . and we will default back to inactivity and catastrophizing due to this injury. That is default reaction to injury that reacts to events and people similar to trauma. Once we understand this cycle and cause - we can give permission to our self worth to guide us, instead of seeking our brain and seeking external validation for guidance.
We were programmed due to Complex trauma - we were traumatized, emotionally abused in our childhood and now this is ingrained in our brain as injury so we default to worry and fears and pessimism. Also, our body is producing and pumping hormones and chemicals whenever we are triggered, since the brain injury is instructing our body to be hyper-alerted due to narcissistic abuse. This keeps us stuck in people pleasing pattern.
Understanding this we can rely on our intellect to guide us instead of our body, brain. We can rely on our common sense, decisions, tasks at hand, chores that needs to be done, it is about shifting focus from PureOCD intrusive worry onto our goals that needs to be done and taken care of.
Our body was conditioned when we were kids to external referencing. Now it is simply repeating the learned lessons. We were exposed to adult hysteria by mentally ill people at the young age when our brain was unable to define and process what was going on. Also, toxic shaming made us obedient, toxic shame was used as a tool. Toxic shaming told us that we are worthless and that we must seek and look on others for guidance and validation. Instead - we can bring back self worth to ourselves, to our intrinsic values and intrinsic motivation.
Regarding the core belief- I did realize my core belief was that I care too much what other people think. And that discovery stayed for decades, however the realization did not help me anything to remove it. I was simply aware of it but no progress how to remove it.
Later, I learned this is actually "external referencing" locus of control. Later, I learned that my body is pumping chemicals and hormones when triggered. Thus my body is conditioning me to be afraid. When I need to talk, I have heart palpitations. When I need to face any fear, I get plethora of physical symptoms along with catastrophizing images and general sense of pessimism that I can't stop. Later I learned that this is normal reaction to abnormal trauma that happened in my childhood, being exposed to adult hysteria that child brain is unable to process. Being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7.
As I learned that trauma gets etched as invisible injury in brain, I learned that my brain will default to fears and negativity by default. So I can do cognitive defusion more easily - I no longer need to rely on my brain to feel good enough to face fears, because due to trauma injury the brain will never feel good enough to do anything. Trauma stuck and stacked in my body as brain injury and chemicals conditioning my psyche into fears will repeat the abandonment process, programmed in dysfunctional childhood.. Body is dysregulating me, amygdala hijacking is making me staying stuck in fear, but in my head I am not aware of it.
To me, it seems that I am inept, and other people are competent. From socially anxious brain, other people hold the absolute truth, while I am constantly wrong about anything and that I should shut up, self-censor myself. I am not aware that this belief is being cemented by chemicals and hormones produced by my trauma brain- keeping my in lethargy, avoiding action and prisoned my into negative thinking - as a way to respond to trauma in the way I learned myself as child. I am not aware I am repeating trauma, to me it seems normal viewpoint - that other people are stronger, and I am weak, that appears as fact from my socially anxious perspective. From social anxiety mind, other people hate me and they will attack me if I speak up or speak my opinion. And that their attack is proof that they hate me.
From social anxious perspective, I am not aware of biases, prejudiced, logical fallacies and Socrates' discovery that there is no absolute truth out there. I am not aware that there are covert narcissists and borderliners out there that appear as friends to me, but they nag and make drama as a way of communicating, keeping me stuck in socially anxious whirlpool.
From socially anxious mind, I will not defend myself and I will stay stuck with negative people, because I see myself as inept, inferior and wrong. Exactly as I was programmed to believe about myself in emotionally abusive childhood.
I will distrust my resources, I will distrust my logic and I will rely on my brain and other people for guidance - both of which are broadcasting me false messages that do not do anything for me. They can't and they shouldn't. My own self worth should come from myself, I am the only person who knows what is going on inside and what I like and what my dreams are. I wish someone told me about external validation concept sooner than spending 30 years reading about symptoms and how to handle social anxiety symptoms that lead me to nowhere - since I never trusted myself for guidance.
Yeah, I agree that social anxiety is not shyness. Social anxiety is trauma response, it is a part of Complex Trauma. Unfortunately, CBT is focusing more on symptoms, while in the same time it ignores trauma and effects of trauma and what is going on inside the mind and body due to trauma. From this viewpoint of ignoring CPTSD, CBT is also repeating the abandonment process and unwittingly it is repeating the trauma process in the individual with social anxiety.
The fear of someone critical is PureO. Thinking thoughts to myself to counteract obsession about someone hurting me -verbally, emotionally or physically. Now - I engage in compulsive act which is not generalized. It can be anything: I can be quiet and try not to make noise. So I default my actions, lifestyle in being quiet about anything, it becomes my primarily focus. It is not empathy and taking into consideration other people - it is being afraid of people and trying to evade their anger through my actions. "Classical" OCD is counting, checking - here the actions are "creative" and it depends on my awareness what might disturb other people to the point that they will nag and mock or criticize me.
Another example would be while I am driving. I adjust to what others are doing. If they tailgate me, I disobey speed limit and I try to drive fast enough, so I do not annoy psychopath behind me.
Therefore, PureOCD is people pleasing and being pushover - at least in my case.
Another example would be coming to checking counter and putting my product on track - but I leave enough space for person behind me - so I end up with not enough space for all my stuff.
This all is happening automatically. I started to be aware of this once I learned about Complex Trauma, self worth, external referencing and Socrates truth that there is no absolute truth - so I do not need to observe others as superior and solely arbitrary experts in life about anything.
I just saw your PTSD video,
PTSD is not the same as CPTSD (Complex Trauma), there is a difference:
"PTSD usually occurs after a single traumatic event, while CPTSD is associated with repeated trauma"
"Unlike PTSD, which can develop regardless of what age you are when the trauma occurred, C-PTSD is typically the result of childhood trauma."
PTSD can cause making decision in isolating and avoiding people without focusing on other people's criticism - it is more a fear from getting hurt by others, while on the other hand, CPTSD can cause social anxiety exactely because of their potentital criticism as primary focus.
PTSD makes individual to engage in Fight response if they interpret other person hostile, while person suffering from CPTSD will likely resort to fawning to perceived threat, also to people pleasing and trauma bonding with others. It is like smiling to abuser or freezing when someone is rude or even violent to them.
PTSD - patient will avoid people because of one specific trauma that might remind them. It may not be criticism at all. (related to original trauma that happened once, may include violent attack)
CPTSD - patient will avoid people because they are triggered by plethora of real or imagined criticism (similar to original repeated childhood trauma: rejection, abandonment - repeated emotional abuse and neglect, being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7).
I realized that saying yes, at least in my case, it is not about word "yes" at all.
It is about shutting up, self-censorship. It is putting us into the environment of silence where saying anything at all is forbidden. There is a saying that tells us 'Keeping silent is a form of saying yes'.
It is when someone claims a statement that is not true, and we know from our inner knowledge database that it proves them wrong - but we avoid speaking this information out in order to avoid potential conflict and potential temper tantrum from a person that will have cognitive dissonance if we speak out, their ego perceived as being attacked, or more usually their narc injury being triggered - which appears as the worst thing on Earth to happen and to experience (due to CPTSD: emotional dysregulation, amygdala hijacking and chemicals and hormones released by our body in order to keep us in freeze response as learned, conditioned protection mechanism).
I learned that "saying yes" in real life for me is keeping quiet, not saying anything at all, going along with someone's order, opinion, guidance, rhetoric, fawning to them. It is about not voicing out the elephant in the room. It is my belief that other people are superior and they are better in anything, they know everything and I must regard every word out of them as ultimate truth, while I am inferior and my opinion is wrong by default, due to toxic shame.
Also it occurred to me that many people who identify with what I wrote - that many of them do not realize that this is actually Social Anxiety.
Many non-diagnosed people thinking they have quirks, perks, particular peculiar reactions, thinking it is nothing to pay attention. While as Freud's iceberg, this silence is only a iceberg of Social anxiety and Complex Trauma fears hidden under the surface.
"You didn't want to disappoint her, you wanted to kind in that way, and that was nice. But now as traumatized kid, who didn't get taught these things, you get to learn now that just saying yes to people to make them feel good in the moment – there can be high price to pay."
Yes,
and from social anxiety perspective - this is where it gets complex. From the resources about social anxiety, we are being instructed to say yes to people, as a way to engage with people and social interactions. This actually made me very confused for so long - before I learned about Complex Trauma this year.
It was because I actually only now I realize instead of "exposure to people" actually I was fawning, people pleasing and setting myself up to be pushover - just to expose myself to my social anxiety as presumed way to fight against social anxiety. Because I followed advice from official social anxiety resources - where I have to expose myself to phobia from people - to be with them as much as possible. And in the same time, I realized the social anxiety is not going away at all - people just exploited my more and more, because I never told them no or deny their request or stand up for my opinion.
I guess this may be the reason why they renamed social phobia into social anxiety in the late 90s, because the official psychology sensed that there is something more complex beneath social phobia, it is not the same as being afraid of spiders so I need to expose myself to spiders to heal the phobia.
"Abuse in childhood conditioned us so well to not risk getting anyone mad at us that we ended up with a distorted idea how to be a good person. We just abandon ourselves and think that's going to work, but it doesn't. Definition: good person does serve and support others and takes care himself enough that what is given to others is given freely, happily, generously, not resentfully. Sometimes there is duty, but this is not a situation where you had a duty to say yes at the beginning."
Whoa. Yep.
And that is it - saying yes and going along with requests automatically is duty. In my distorted mind, it is automatic duty. This is what I was conditioned, I get flashbacks from my childhood where I learned this. It was shaming, slapping, cursing and serving others as primary goal. This was conditioned in me, to be nice and good.
---
IT is because of:
a) brain injury - there is literally an etching inside our brain due to narcissistic abuse. This injury default to two main detrimental patterns: being stuck in intrusive worry and being pessimist. I learned that I must rely on my common sense and decision to counteract these patterns: being active and positive on force.
and
b) chemical and hormones - our body is literally drugging us into codependency, into submission, into inferiority complex, into people pleasing and fawning. If I want to stand up to someone - my heart will palpitate, my body will shake, my voice will shake, I'll suffer from mutism. And without Complex Trauma information all the time I was thinking this is a caprice, a perk, a quirk of mine, that is it a part of Social anxiety, some medical term to describe physical symptoms related to other people. I was not aware that this is my body filling my up with drug - chemicals and hormones; Oxytocin. Dopamine. Cortisol, Adrenaline and Norepinephrine. Serotonin. If I say yes, or if I avoid, my body will release pleasure hormones, but in my mind I will think it feels good, so I will repeat saying yes.
That's what makes it hard. First - people are not aware these uncomfortable feelings and flashback images, is actually body thing. Also, as I learned about CPTSD I realized only much later that even though it is body thing - I do not need to fawn to my body. I can rely on my intellect, decisions, common sense and knowledge instead - meaning to do what I deem as correct even though it feels very uncomfortable inside. For example - talking like this over you tube comments. Before - I would no do it, because I was afraid someone might react negatively. In real life too - I start to realize that I do set of unconscious behaviour that says yes to people. For example in the supermarket store, I move away to people in order to make life easier for other people- who then end up taking my free space to unload product on the track when I am done with shopping at the checkout. So saying Yes is also behavioral problem, it is not strictly related only to word Yes.
Problem with switching brain from amygdala to cortex is for people with Complex Trauma. They/we have brain injury due to narcissistic abuse. Also we have toxic shame that is focusing us on external referencing, being conditioned to be people pleaser. The injury is invisible wound inside the brain that default to being stuck and pessimism.
I learned that knowing this fact, that brain will default to intrusive worry and catastrophizing and I can't do nothing about that - paradoxically gives me power to enforce 5 second rule - knowing that activity is mental health, while inactivity is illness. I am talking about switching from being focused on worry and rumination - not fighting it - but changing focus on task at hand, jobs to do. Also, since brain will default to immobility, lethargy and negativity - I won't be surprised when my brain produces worry. I know this is not reality - it is my injury speaking.
Trauma is being abandoned emotionally and we continue doing this by being inactive and thinking negative thoughts, we were conditioned that our brain is working in this mode, couples with chemicals and hormones insides to drug us into this injury as default thinking process.
To make it more complex, since we are being conditioned to seek external validation, our values have been conditioned too. We think we must default to toxic masculinity - and thus repeat the abandonment process in our dysfunctional childhood. We think we must overcompensate - so we become perfectionists and we define success and happiness based on material things - stuff we buy, to show off and our hormones and chemicals inside our body released by our invisible trauma injury in brain - is releasing pleasure chemicals when we try to achieve perfectionism and when we are pushovers. So our body is drugging us to codependency, setting unrealistic standards mixed with cognitive distortions seeing the world as black, depressive, cold and lonely place. It appears in our mind as reality, but we are hallucinating our reality. Toxic shame is also hallucination, it appears real and we believe our internalized toxic shame that we are inept, stupid, worthless. Being aware of all this gives us power to 5 second rule, anchor thoughts, basing our decisions on our logic, common sense, intuition and instinct to move, to change focus, to do task we need to do anyway - instead of rumination mode that is hypnotized inside us by our body - brain injury and chemicals inside us.
This brain injury concept helps to accept brutal fact that anxiety will come back even though we do stuff on purpose, 5 second rule. As Mel Robbins is 22:50 telling she has anxiety returning - this is brain injury - it defaults our thinking process to anxiety. This is Stockdale Paradox: to accept brutal facts but move anyway. Without waiting for our brain to feel good enough - it never will. Without waiting for fears to vanish and without waiting for our brain to get unstuck - it never will, it will get stuck due to our trauma. We have to step out of the car and push the car - by our decisions, logic, common sense as guidance instead of our brain, we have Super-Ego inside us, as discovered by Freud - to guide us instead of our faulty brain.
Voltaire and Descartes discovered in 17, 18 century that our brain is separated from our soul. They discovered this mechanism long before modern medicine that shows brain scan of brain injury after narcissistic abuse. Voltaire said:
"Man was born to live either in the convulsions of misery, or in the lethargy of boredom.
'Let us work without reasoning,' said Martin; 'it is the only way to make life endurable.'
Candide, Voltaire"
He literally was explaining 5 second rule and Anchor thought to Renaissance Europeans - in contemporary language of that time.
Rene Descartes talked about Mind–body dualism. He discovered: "The difficulty is not merely that mind and body are different. It is that they are different in such a way that their interaction is impossible."
Also once I learned about Complex trauma I learned there is brain injury too - due to being exposed to narcissistic abuse. And the brain injury defaults my thinking into being passive and pessimist. So being pushover and people pleaser is conditioned response to childhood trauma. That's why it is so hard to shake it off. Due to external referencing locus of control I see others as better, stronger, competent, while I am inferior. Then I unconsciously form trauma bonding without being aware I put others on pedestal and perceive others as my guide, guidance.
Last summer I discovered Zoroastrianism where they base their lifestyle in being honest, genuine and speaking the truth - which changed my perspective. I would lie, shut up or self censor in order to make other people comfortable and their life easier. Their happiness was my primary goal in making decisions - and this was automatic behaviour, I was not aware I was doing it.
Also I learned from Socrates that there is no absolute truth, so other people are not ultimate truth givers, they can be totally wrong about stuff, opinions, conclusions.
That helped me to be more skeptical, when I learned about Descartes "Evil Demon hypothesis". He says that we should doubt everything around us and really rely on our intrinsic knowledge database and form opinion, even at the cost of being wrong or mistaken. Otherwise, other people can control and manipulate us, just as you explained in this video.
Philip K Dick said that once you understand this philosophy of doubt, you catch other people's BS amazingly quickly hehe. And it is true. Having doubt about everything and everyone, and being honest are tools to fight seeking validation from others.
Also, he is teaching young men especially to develop mental illness and to stay in childhood mentality of ego-centrism: arrogance, apathy, irritability, resentment, anger - all are unsuccessful ego-centric thinking.
Also he is preaching instant Stoicism where he actually ignores the stoicism idea of interdependence and replaces it with me being first. In reality this works only when people like him are parasiting over nice and kind people. They scan the environment and abuse and belittle people who people like him deem as insecure and quiet. That is not alpha. That is pathetic.
I see stoicism (the real one, not the instant Stoicism we are flooded now on you tube) as Zoroastrianism: speaking the truth, being honest, being genuine, being authentic - with mistakes included, with things we can't improve included, with our impairment and things society made us ashamed of, just being yourself no matter what toxic masculinity says or defines us into paper man cutout characters. Amazingly so, being honest is not so easy as it seems. It is controversial, many people will be triggered due to cognitive dissonance - so being honest and genuine is actually very courageous act - speaking our opinion and truth without drama and explosions, even though some people may object and attack.... and that is stoicism. Not Jordan Peterson biased and overgeneralized, oversimplified version.
Nope, the end result is far worse and detrimental than placebo, as you labelled it.
Oversimplification by definition means:
"simplification of something to such an extent that a distorted impression is given."
From Jordan Peterson's angle, as a psychologist - he ought not to be simple and generalized, he has to provide information clean, objective and factual.
Instead - he is vague, often contradictory and half-baked. It is almost as if he read an article about a topic and then he makes statement based on narrow point of view.
Which leads to my next point-
biases, logical fallacies, prejudices are all the result of people using mental shortcuts and thus they misreport the reality - leading to delusions, illusions and distorted reality - which means a whole a lot of cognitive distortions and mental instability.
Narcissists and psychopaths are using this actually. It is their weapon to manipulate the easy targets, to control them and hypnotize them, that is the core of their favorite tool: gaslighting.
From Jordan Peterson's perspective, he is vague -so if you criticize him, he can always say, well you misunderstood me -and he is free and off the hook. That's how toxic people operate, they abuse other people's patience, unwritten etiquette and honesty - that turns them into being gullible. That's what makes people like him very dangerous, especially since he influence so many kids and adolescents who have not time, resources and energy to use their own head, as you explained in your comment. He parasites over people who seek external guidance, external reference and external validation.
He is a living personification of Rollins Band "Liar" song from 1994, check lyrics:
and now you're desperate
and in need of human contact
and then
you meet me
and your whole world changes
because everything I say is everything you've ever wanted to hear
so you drop all your defenses and you drop all your fears
and you trust me completely
I'm perfect
in every way
cause I make you feel so strong and so powerful inside
you feel so lucky
but your ego obscures reality
and you never bother to wonder why
things are going so well
you wanna know why?
cause I'm a liar
yeah I'm a liar
I'll tear your mind out
I'll burn your soul
I'll turn you into me
I'll turn you into me
cause I'm a liar, a liar
a liar, a liar
This is interesting if we put it under many motivators (such as instant Stoics on the web) who try to toughen men up by "being strong" and describing codependency as a choice or something that came out of nowhere, not investigating the cause where it came from.
This actually goes along with Wu Wei revelation that I had - that our fears and choices based on our fear are structured that way - as the best way that seem fit to our current knowledge on one side and frustrating and difficult people on the other side that we depend upon (due to shelter, money, service, help, connection, any Maslow need). It is not our whim. It is not that we deliberately sabotage our lives and shoot our own foot. It is the best possible worlds considering the data information we have, our scope of awareness.
"The alternative to codependency is self respect. Or self trust. I know myself, I can trust my identity. I can follow it, I can lean, rely on it."
Intrinsic value and motivation. That is the information we are missing, we were missing all the time growing up. At one moment, we started to distrust ourselves and we saw others as competent and better in everything, while we rejected ourselves as inept.
It helped me personally to realize that there is no absolute truth - so no one can claim to be god, in god mode. This changed the perspective for me, to start trusting myself. It seems my codependency was a pattern of seeking guidance from others and seeing others as encyclopedia and internet google - that they offer the answers for anything, while my experiences and what I learned did not matter at all.
What I learned once I realized this shocking discovery that other are only actors and play pretend to be confident is that I encountered some people who protested me - labeling me as stubborn, stupid, childish - ordering me to accept their truth - just because I rejected their data based on their mental shortcuts rather than empirical data - which can never be grasped due to complexities and paradoxes in statistics.
During codependency years - I would encounter at such people who are pontificating others - and I would see them as proof I am inept. It never occurred to me to question them. I would automatically acknowledge anything that they would say. This is so dangerous - to truth strangers, while I reject my common sense and my own knowledge because it is a path to manipulation, control and Milgram Experiment.
I realized for me, this work when I acknowledge that brain injury as the result of being exposed to narcissistic abuse (which was caused by being relentlessly exposed to criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when growing up) - that I validate this, to accept it, as Stockdale Paradox - accept the brutal fact and move on. So I am aware that my thoughts will default to intrusive worry and being pessimist - this happens due to this injury inside, I no longer see PureOCD intrusive worry as something dangerous or something that proves me being worthless - it is only injury pumping hormones and chemicals inside my body to feel fear - when I need to stand up for myself. Before this knowledge I would not be able to perform cognitive defusion, so if I feel scared and panicked - for me, from my perspective I would automatically feel stupid, worthless, inept, inferior - just because I would feel uncomfortable physical symptoms - that stem from being triggered to some people or event that are similar to my original trauma (toxic shaming). Knowing and acknowledging this injury paradoxically gives me power to turn focus to my logic instead of my brain. I rely on my decisions, tasks to be done, jobs to do, goals that I forget to do due to intrusive worries.
It is Stockholm Syndrome. We are hypnotized into being servants to other people, especially if they are loud, aggressive or rude.
We got to realize that there is no absolute truth, as many great philosophers discovered (Socrates) the paradox of knowledge.
We got to start trusting ourselves, put self worth back inside us, trusting our commons sense, logic, intuition, instinct. We can listen to others, but it helps now to doubt them, and to doubt everything, even our own brain since anxiety will lie to us.
Society will not help us because this is the door in mass control - keeps people to obey authority, as sheep. Our brain will not help us since it was injured in childhood by un-diagnosed mentally ill people who criticized us all the time. We got to lean on our inner database knowledge, all the information we soaked inside to lead us, even if we are wrong. Part of programming was instilling inside us perfectionism - that it is a catastrophe if we are wrong, if we make mistake or if we make a fool out of ourselves. These are all tools of control and conditioning us into slaves.
Yep, you are absolutely correct. In real life this is not so easy. The process behind " to find what you're confident in" means starting talking, making your words heard, speaking out the elephant in the room. It is highly likely that socially anxious people are having huge inferiority complex due to relentless criticism in childhood which gave rise to anxiety, but also relentless continuous criticism in adulthood - exactly because of areas where socially anxious people are confident with. Inferiority complex, toxic shame, body that is conditioned to release hormones and chemicals when in perceived danger are the glue that makes anxiety stick and being unable to shake it off. Whatever socially anxious person does not express is not accepted by general society. Even more so, it is scorned by the general public. That's the reason why socially anxious person will hide, avoid, isolate and stay quiet.
For example, most people like to go to parties no matter how boring they really are, they find fun in being around people. Socially anxious person will prefer nature and solitude - and this interest will be mocked or labeled as crazy.
So it may seem like self esteem is to hold resentment to society, since society is wrong - but actually self esteem is being ok with resentment from society. Someone says I am stupid, wrong, that I am ok with that, that it doesn't bother me.
This is neither so...easy nor comfortable process. That's what makes socially anxious people trapped in people pleasing habits, being pushover, trying to fit in general society norms and what is deemed "normal".
The solution to social anxiety is to be honest, genuine, speaking the truth without drama, explosion or whining, nagging - but in the real life this innocuous act that seem super easy and boring and irrelevant is actually very potent weapon. I think socially anxious people are aware of this, so they shut up and self censor. I think socially anxious people are very clever (Dunning–Kruger effect) but they are quiet.
Once they start to talk, many people will be shocked and it will be uncomfortable.
Also, socially anxious people attract parasites and psychopaths, narcissists because of their calm and accepting nature without borders - and starting to speak up will mean that many of so-called friendly strangers will go away. There is a risk of being lonely since many unhealthy relationship will be broken. I think this makes socially anxious people stuck in status quo.
It is like in quantum physics - where you observe something it never changes. Once you start to talk and express yourself, things will start to change, they will start to take shape and solidify.
There is a sense of calmness and peace when you shut up and don't involve in society, when you are stuck, especially with invisible injury inside (CPTSD), and this is also a driving force that keeps social anxiety ongoing.
However what I found out from my experience is:
1) it doesn't work in certain situations that I find very uncomfortable (whereas most people don't care at all). I learned that these situations are connected to Complex Trauma, being triggered, amygdala hijacking and Polyvagal theory - and just a few days ago I realized that this happens because of body itself, the body is releasing chemicals and hormones that solidify this worry -but I am not aware of this chemical, hormones drug process inside me - I am only aware of my thoughts that default to being stuck in intrusive worry and pessimism. I find out that shifting focus helps to get unstuck - and it means being active and being optimist on force. Shifting focus does not help if my focus is passive. There has to be action. That is the secret. Mental illness is being stuck, mental imbalance and mental health is considered unhealthy when we are stuck and when we cannot function as human being - similar to character in The Glass Menagerie, a play/movie by Tennessee Williams- that is obsessed by collecting figure of glass and listening to music. So I find "shifting focus" as a way to do something, do some chore, do some goal, do something that I would forget doing because I would be thinking about something that scares me, trying to find solution in my head, whereas I cannot control people and I cannot control events- therefore there is no solution. It is about doing anything to move on. This also may entail speaking up and defending myself if someone is rude - that I walk away, cut contact. To voice out the elephant in the room, something that is obvious yet no one is speaking it. Action would be also to write down my emotions, since socially anxiety is obfuscating emotions and make them unclear, garbled up as if I am under veil, looking at life through a gaze. Social anxiety is about shutting up and self-censorship due to relentless criticism in childhood.
2) I am already zoomed in another person. I already to watch very closely what the other person is doing, what they wear, I watch their moves and expressions already. This is problem, since I am stuck to the other person. Again stuck is the pattern that keeps on repeating. I discovered this zoomed in phenomena is related to external referencing locus of control, external validation and trauma bonding. I see other people as gods, while I am inferior and inept, unworthy by default - toxic shame. I realized that once I understand this, I can snap out of it. I can bring back the intrinsic value back where it belongs- to myself. The realization of this is shocking. It makes me spot liars, manipulators more quickly. Previously I would trust anyone by default. Whatever they say I would consider as ultimate truth and I would never question in. Especially if they are loud, aggressive and violent. This is the pattern that stems from Complex Trauma - and social anxiety is a part of complex trauma, being exposed to adult hysteria in childhood, with child being unable to discern it and deal as adult, since it is child brain being exposed to non-diagnosed mentally ill people around. So the child will deal the best way it can - through immature ego defense mechanisms and this continues into adulthood. This realization helped me understand that there is injury inside that will always default to being stuck in intrusive worry and catastrophizing, and that I can expect this side effect patterns emerge in any uncomfortable situation. It is Stockdale paradox - accept brutal fact but keep going anyway, since I have common sense, logic, intuition, instinct, super-ego to guide me instead of my injured brain that lies to me. I can't wait for my brain to feel well, it never will. I need to rely on my logic and gathered knowledge to guide me instead.
Cool technique.
But what happens when someone is actually rude and critical? :D
I would rather shift focus from other people - whether it is positive or negative. I am talking about locus of control - shifting from external referencing (what other people think about me, being good or bad) - to shift the values and motivation back to myself - actually where the self worth belongs. Intrinsic value, intrinsic motivation. It is about being fine with making a fool out of myself, that I stumble, that I make grammar mistakes, that I am mistaken, that I make mistakes - and being totally fine with it, knowing that perfectionism is mental illness, something very unhealthy that appear as good and positive.
I think socially anxious people already know this lesson very well. The problem is that nice kind and friendly people attract certain kind of negative people that I call external factor (I dislike toxic people since it generalizes temporary states). There are people who are parasites, psychopaths and narcissists/borderliners who will never change and they like to abuse and use other people and create drama out of nothing as a way to accumulate energy from easy targets. They are the problem, not us. We are gaslight into believing that we are unable to cooperate - when we react to external factor.
"we concluded that people are bad, we secluded ourselves"
Socially anxious people have problem with criticism, they are not afraid of person itself as person. This is why the label "social phobia" was rejected in '90s and replaced with "social anxiety". Mentors were thinking that being uncomfortable with people is the same as being afraid of spider or dog - so the proposed therapy was exposure - which does not work with social anxiety. The problem are not in people, problem is in external factor - small portion of people who wear mask and play make-pretend to be safe, caring, normal and friendly, but they are dangerous really.
"remember to imagine reciprocating, sending out love to people around you, build protection, we teach people how we treat us in way how we treat ourselves"
I tried this for so long and I failed everytime. Finally, as I learned about CPTSD, I realized this is not so easy and it is actually out of our control. People with social anxiety have Complex Trauma. Amygdala hijacking means literally that - our brain is hijacked and out of our control. Complex trauma is behind social anxiety. It is being abandoned in childhood, being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when we were too small to understand being exposed to adult hysteria, we are being told not to express ourselves and that we are unworthy and our opinion does not matter, and authority is the source of ultimate truth. Now we are repeating this learned conditioned lesson of abandonment. Other people are more important, while I am not important, I abandon myself. Now our body is conditioned into shutting up and self-censorship and there is invisible brain injury inside our brain due to Complex Trauma. This injury will default to being stuck in intrusive worry and pessimism. The stronger the abuse, the deeper the injury. This means, no matter what technique, no matter how much I work myself to positivity - my brain will default to intrusive worry and catastrophizing. My thoughts will default to being stuck and passive. This is Stockdale Paradox - to accept the brutal fact that I cannot trust my brain - and instead I have to turn to my intrinsic values, common sense, logic, intuition and instinct as guide. Before I would wait for my brain to feel good enough to feel good - but due to injury and childhood programming by mentally ill people around me, my brain will lie to me, it will release stress hormones when I need to stand up for myself, when I need to express my opinion, when I need to assert my boundaries, my body will work against it. So when I am aware of this injury inside, paradoxically I do not feel automatic need to follow my scary thoughts any more, I can choose to shift focus and follow common sense and logic instead. I see this as a process to get out of social anxiety rut, being stuck in a mud. I simply step out of the car and push it - instead of sitting in the car and pressing the gas , hoping that brain will uncling itself by itself - and start to feel courageous by itself.
Problem is that in our childhood we were being programmed to distrust ourselves, and to put unbelievable ultimate trust in other people (authority) especially if they are loud and obnoxious, hysterical. Now as adults, this works against us, since there are a lot of parasites, narcissists, psychopaths, borderliners around that abuse and exploit easy targets - nice, kind, open, friendly, good people. Allowing ourselves to doubt everything and everyone gives us power to shift our focus. It is liberating, we realize we were in prison all this time without being aware we are in a prison and the key to unlock our cell is doubting all.
As kids we needed conformity and obedience in order for a tree to grow upright - but as adults holding on to this crutch/mould cast is unhealthy, it makes us ego-centric and it can even become dangerous (Milgram Experiment, Spanish Inquisition, Crusades).
Socrates discovered this 2000 years ago - there is no absolute truth. Truth is what we make it. This message about paradox of knowledge is obfuscated from society since it is easier for groups of people to be like sheep, it is easier to control masses. However, this noble cause of keeping societal peace starts to be a huge problem for people who are suffering from social anxiety. We got to realize we are kind, nice, friendly people, and therefore we will not cause evil or hurt anyone. We do not need so much imposed restrains and control and other people approval neither validation nor caring what other people think. We are allowed to be and we are allowed to act in ways...that most unwitting people will quickly label as crazy, strange and weird. And being fine with that label. They are not important, we got to follow what our common sense, logic, intuition, instinct and super-ego tell us to follow. That should be our bonding, not other people and other people opinions.
Paradoxically, people like and trust more people who appear "stubborn" and strong minded over people who agree with them. People automatically take advantage of nice and kind people who shut up to unfairness, most people automatically will exploit others who never express themselves, most people are sheep and ego-centric and are unable to see reality from more than one angle and from different perspective.
People with social anxiety have this super ability, so it is about trusting our awesome abilities instead of other people who in general part are biased and close-minded anyway.
Social anxiety is a part of Complex trauma, it is being exposed to mentally ill people when growing up (relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria which child brain is unable to process).
Social anxiety is a way our brain helped us to both manage psychopaths around us and our personality. Therefore fawning is automatic response to uncomfortable situations and people to socially anxious people. It is good. It is something that literally saved our mental health, stability and kept our head above the water.
If someone reacts to uncomfortable sources in fight response - they become narcissists.
It is the same wound, different reaction.
Therefore, if we declare war with social anxiety, it is the same as if we declare war at coagulation when we get cut.
I see managing social anxiety as Wu Wei - accepting my manners and personality and work with it. The urge to talk to strangers just to fight social anxiety is unfortunately in this world not advisable - there are a lot of users, abusers, narcissists, emotional vampires out there, and it is not advisable to have open border policy.
I've seen that you talk about action in your 4th video- yeah , that is the key. Taking actions, but not as reaction to anxiety. It is about shifting focus from intrusive worry and pessimism onto doing our chores, tasks, goals, dreams that need to be done - and that some or many people may label as stupid, crazy, weird, unaccepted. And being fine with what other people think, as along as the locus of control in intrinsic value, instead of external referencing.
It happened last summer and I put nice flowers on kitchen desk - unknown to me with small seeds that pop and jumps around if you shake the desk or the flower itself gently by hand, by accident. So it ended up in my cola and toast and other food I prepared near the flowers. I do not support drugs and I hate them to be honest. I am huge opponent to narcomania. And I've read that the side-effect of taking those seeds is the same as LSD and it may cause death (heart arrest) so I won't reveal the name of that flower. With that being said...
Only a week later after I put those flowers on kitchen desk, I realized my experience happened due to those seeds.
In the meantime, it felt like I was being possessed. I would got spasms in sleep as if I was electrocuted. I experienced exploding head syndrome (which I learned it exists last week - I made video about it). I got awoken in the middle of sleep with images of everything, about life and death, whole lot of realizations coming up and springing up to my mind in 3D, 4D. All coming with great speed in my mind from all sides. Everything made sense. Everything in life seemed connected. As Feng Shui, microcosm repeating itself on macrocosm. I literally saw the communication process (my problems is social anxiety) - I was able to see it in 3D, similar as Nikola Tesla said he got his inspirations - I was able to rotate it in my head, zoom it in and see it how it works - it is like there are receiver and sender - and there is a void between them. Without a modulator, decoder the communication gets garbled up and I realized how the most people talk to themselves actually, they project their shadow onto other people who irritate them. So in order to communicate with other people we need to develop decoding modem system - by learning the language of other person - what words they use, what definitions they have - we can ask them to clarify what they mean when they use certain vague concepts. I was not aware of this at all before, I never saw communication on that detailed level. People with social anxiety do not have this knowledge, they shut up - and thus create communication impossible. This is what makes social anxiety crippling and detrimental - shutting up, fawning, not expressing our opinion, staying silent. Later I learned about Complex Trauma being culprit for social anxiety.
And since most people are ego-centric - they think if they speak the same language that it means that other person will automatically understand them, that is often not the case. It is about listening, and collecting as much information as we can learn before jumping to conclusions. Later I learned that people usually jump to conclusions (which is definition of biases) and thus create delusions without being aware they create imaginary world that appears real to them.
I felt as if I was nudged into the right direction to gain knowledge - since then I've read philosophy and psychology books and now they all made sense. I learned that Descartes had similar experience (Descartes' Three Dream) and it helped him to form his famous "Cogito, ergo sum". I got urge to read history book and thus learned about Zoroastrianism and their lifestyle of talking truth, being genuine and with good intentions and taking correct actions - which I adopted as my own motto for life.
Also one side-effect was that I felt as if a transparent veil is falling from me, I literally felt a veil falling off from my head. As if I had a gaze over my eyes all the time, and thus that I was unable to see the world clear, in HD.
Also later I learned that psychedelics is actually being explore as a medicine for anxiety, considered by official mental health industry. The similar as marijuana is now accepted as beneficial medicine for certain medical issues.
Bringing self worth to myself does not mean being stubborn, egoist or denying other people. It is about gathering all the data - but not trusting it automatically anymore, as ultimate truth. It is about doubting everyone and everything and relying on common sense and logic - instead of other people opinion, validation and approval.
People pleasing is trauma response, it is not a choice. Thus it cannot be removed by logic. The body is conditioned to being pushover. If I want to stand up for myself, hormones and chemicals inside my body will be released in order to keep me safe, silent, quiet - by conditioned response in childhood to serve and obey authority. So I will be literally drugged into fawning.
Fawning, people pleasing, pushover is not absolutely negative - it has a positive traits: keeping peace, diplomacy, being able to listen to others, understand them, it is about trying to understand them. It starts to be problem when it is automatic - so if there is abuse or unfair or false accusation, if my reaction is to shut up and smile back - that is detrimental. It puts me in unfair position, in being stuck and also it enables abusers to manipulate as something accepted and normal. I realized the society itself is people pleasing and pushover. Most people are cowards, to blame ourselves and place judgement on ourselves for being people pleaser is unfair. Most people will fail Milgram Experiment. The society is sick. Society is sick, there is something wrong with it. Problem is when I think I caused it, that I am broken, as Aaron said in video. "It had nothing to do with you". "It was their own stuff going on".
This is good question.
From my experience, short answer is No. I struggle with social anxiety - this didn't work for me at all. I have all the empathy for others (which actually stem from fearing others - therefore I people please them, fawn and being pushover, seeing others as superior) - and in the same time to accommodate others I relinquish my own space, my own right, my own needs as worthless and unnecessary and unimportant.
I see that I was in environment - home, school, society - where most of the people are narcissistic, selfish and aggressive - I received the message that was meant for kids of narcissistic and selfish, greedy people to develop empathy, which came natural to me. Then I ended up with empathy that is already inside me, and I deny myself of anything human, due to this messages from toxic society.
Therefore this idea to empathise with others ends up - for people who are sensitive and empathetic by nature - detrimental.
I see lack of empathy towards ourselves as repetition of trauma in childhood, Complex trauma - where our needs, expression, opinions were devalued and declared repeatedly as unimportant, whereas we were programmed to be parents to our environment, being forced to empathize with adults, adults who are immature themselves.
So I see eliminating toxic shame as hallucination and eliminating external referencing as the step in the right direction. It is bringing back the self worth where it belongs - trusting our own knowledge, experience, intuition, instinct, common sense, logic, including our mistakes, and making a fool of ourselves and right to learn and right to ask questions.
I see toxic environment as important factor here. I am talking about parts of society that shames the mistakes as it is connected to person and personality. And also they beat someone already on the ground, and hitting him as hard which such sadism I see as a part of (hidden) psychopathy yet accepted by society as norm, something natural, it is ok to release the torrent of anger toward easy target that does not defend oneself.
"This whole journey that you're on is you're actually climbing out of a pit. Visualize this whole journey is that you're climbing out of a pit, look up and see light you are climbing towards. Then you realize, get sense why it's so hard – you're climbing a steep wall out of a deep dark pit."
Yeah I see social anxiety that I struggle with as Tham Luang cave rescue, and the rescue depends on me, I only get instructions from the outside by walkie talkie, so the actual exit depends on me. I can help others by leaving bread crumbs behind me and warning them about what I learned managing though the labyrinth.
"It's challenging. It's not easy. Most people do not take this journey. Give yourself some credit. There are people who will never do it."
Whoa! thanks
"There are people who will never do it. There are people in the pit who will never climb out, they're always going to stay in the pit. They don't want you to climb out of the pit because if you leave it causes them conflict and pain. They will do anything to not experience pain."
Whoa, I never see it from this perspective,
I always was convinced that people will try to get out of the cave. That it is natural reaction to being in prison, to go out into the light. This makes sense and explains a lot and it gives me clearer picture of what is going on when someone beats someone on the ground.
I realize now that I had a distorted perception of other people.. I trust them too much, I trust too extremely. I do not believe that there are people who willingly destroy other people dreams and do it because they want to stay in pit. From my perspective other people do this because they are superior, they are outside of pit, and thus I must rely on other people to guide me out of the pit, and when they are angry, it means I did something wrong and I must do anything to please them in order for them not to be angry at me, so that they would help me to climb out of the pit. It never occurred to me that angry, rude, violent, aggressive people that I see as gods are actually in the pit. I saw their superiority as a proof they are out of the pit. It is because my pit is social anxiety and I see the world from socially anxious perspective. In such world other people who are talkative, expressive, easy speaking, outgoing as gods and out of the pit. It never occurred to me until now that they are deep in the pit and they want me to stay stuck in the pit. This information is mind blowing to me. My previous belief produced inferiority complex for me that I could not shake it off.
"You are not the storm, you cannot control the storm, you cannot get rid of fear in terms of never going to be bothered by it again. The storm can't do anything, fear and self doubt cannot touch you. It is when you cave in when you turn over your power that you backslide and lose your ground. Even if you make mistakes, voice will come, absolutely ignore it. It will make sure that you just give up."
Whoa! Thank you.
People with social anxiety already have social skills. That is actually the problem. The skills are perfected and superior as oppose to general public who lack social etiquette.
"making your inner critic less intense"
Another wrong approach. Meddling with inner critic gives its strength. It is engaging with intrusive thoughts, PureOCD - it will only make it stronger. The brain tries to protect itself by inventing new things to be afraid, so engaging with inner critic is goalpost being moved on further and further no matter what you do and no matter who perfect you are. It is a form of perfectionism - mental instability. It is spinning in the loop like a hamster wheel.
Accepting inner critic and ignoring it is the best way, accepting our mistakes, accepting us being fool. People do not like truth - while people with social anxiety are smarter than most of the people - and most of the people can't stand the truth, it makes them uncomfortable and most people will not to try anything to do better - so other people will be rude, annoying to intelligent quiet and calm people. On the other hand people with social anxiety are instructed to see others as gods and to rely on other people as guide, since they were criticized in childhood relentlessly 24/7 and later in life criticized by people who hate truth, intelligence, and making their life better. Most people want to stay in the dark and are scared of light and are too lazy or stupid to clean themselves and do something better - then they will project their fears through toxic shaming on easy targets: people with social anxiety.
Therefore, social anxiety is not being able to trust oneself and to defend ourselves, believing other people are superior and the truth is in other people - which is a lie.
Good question.
This question actually reveals some kind of brainwashing and mind control and basically it pinpoint exact problem in society: What is normal and what is abnormal? What is good and what is bad decision? We all know that in 1950s people had strict rules how to behave in society. And there was no anxiety and fears and panic (except for poets, beatniks and rebels which is topic for itself). But for general public, minding its business, they knew what is socially acceptable and what is correct path in life - get diploma, get job, get home, get kids, have grandkids). In late 1960s there was civil and sex revolution and suddenly boundaries have blurred. This caused anxiety to rise - it is said; As psychologist Robert Leahy points out: “The average high school kid today has the same level of anxiety as the average psychiatric patient in the early 1950s.”
There are no clear rules. It is because in late 1960s it was discovered that when people are told what to do, their creativity is destroyed and it leads to suppression, similar factory mindset as in communism. As you said it perfectly: "we start policing everyone".
And I agree with you - Wu Wei is ancient Chinese concept of being honest, genuine and natural, with mistakes and weirdness and unacceptability by certain number of people that may be majority. As long as we do not hurt someone it is ok whatever we do. Perfectionism is mental instability. So making mistakes is a way of learning, it is not something to be toxically ashamed.
With that being said, trauma that I am talking about here is something that blocks us. It is not about policing our decisions. It is exactly the opposite: it is about removing the police from our decisions.
Which leads to philosophic viewpoint: that there is some default setting for human mind and civilization: to be interdependent and love - as basis of health, mental health.
Therefore, we can define trauma as something that is hurting us and it is hurting other people. Trauma as something that prevents us from living. Trauma as something that kills our joy and makes us immobile.
So this leads to my point - we do not know what is mental illness. People do not know it, we are not being taught this in schools nor media. And you will find it is hard task to seek definition even if you google it-
Anti-psychiatry movement in 1960s discovered that you can easily fool experts working in asylums to be "crazy". This is the reason why so many institutions were closed from 60s onwards.
Mental illness is coming down to immobility. When your mind tricks you and it cripples you. It is when your mind mutes you into mutism - whereas you can talk.
When someone accuses you of something unfair, false and you do not defend yourself because you are scared of punishment for talking. That is trauma. It is detrimental to you. And you are not aware that you have police in your head that is making you shut up and immobile and negative.
This is what I am talking about to people who struggle with fears, anxiety and panic - to step out of the car. When we are triggered into fears, we do not realize it but we have a police force inside us that is making us scared, silent and obedient. There are 4 responses to trauma: fight - flight- freeze-fawn. (Some also add flop).
Unfortunately, fight response today is "normal" so many people use narcissism and psychopathy to attack others. This is topic for itself. But us, normal people who would not hurt another people choose fawn, freeze, flight in order to deal with being triggered due to our police in our head, and we are not aware we have police. This inner police is making us immobile and pessimist. So we got to change this dynamics. Mental health is being active, being talkative, being social, helping others, interdependence, loving ourselves first, and then sharing love. Choosing to be active is general advice - to there is no police here. How you choose to be active depends on your personality, finances, environment, needs, Maslow needs, it is not step by step instruction. Therefore, I am not talking about policing ourselves. I am talking about removing toxic police in order to deal with being triggered, dealing with trauma.
"What people get mad at is being made wrong. Everybody interprets what's being said to them in different way based on our history."
What angers me is that for me personally when I look back to my life, 20 or more years behind me, that I was exposed to "abandoned" word - I remember reading it in so many self help and psychology books - but it didn't get to me. I did not know what it means. The definition was coming garbled to me. It is only this year that I realized that abandonment means lack of love. Lack of focus. Lack of being present as friend. It is not physical abandonment as I thought of it. It is being stranger to myself. Or casual observer in the street. And this is trauma, this is what we were programmed in childhood. Abandonment was not physical, it was not abandonment in terms of not being spoken to, it is not abandonment in communication - it is abandonment in the quality of what is spoken, quality of communication. When I realized this, "abandonment" concept suddenly made sense to me.
I see this lack of definitions and misunderstanding what certain concepts really mean as a great obstacle to mental health. IT is as if we are all speaking English here - but our own definitions are in totally different language but we think we understand it because it is in English - but in reality the meaning is unknown to us. It is like mental health is lacking Rosetta stone to explain and to really understand what all parties are speaking about. Mentors on one side and targets on the other side.
Therefore channels like this one are helping in this process of decrypting concepts about trauma that we need to hear. You tube comments part are excellent tool for this Rosetta stone explanations what we are really thinking about, too.
For some unknown reason, "being nice" is glued to being respectful versus being rude and hysterical. As if you can't explain your point without drama, hysteria and turning into Karen. As if you must choose between being calm and being explosive - as if there is not middle ground.
I see "too nice" as problem of mutism, being stuck in intrusive worry and inferiority complex. Although it seems hard to grasp and overcome, the solution is surprisingly very easy - it is in speaking the truth. Being genuine, being honest, voicing out the elephant in the room. This seems as easy and not effective - but in reality talking truth and being honest have radical and shocking effect on certain people.. who are parasites, narcissists, manipulators. They don't like honesty, transparency and calling out on their toxic behaviour taking advantage of others by pretending to care and acting friendly.
I don't see "too nice" as shadow problem - where shadow is defined as being macho, overcompensating strength and being aggressive - for this is incorrectly being explained as shadow to a person who is always silent, quiet and calm. Shadow is actually very surprising: being weird, being stubborn, being labeled as stupid, being labeled as fool, idiot - and still keep on talking my point. It is enjoying and doing stuff and talking in way what most people would find as "geek" or "sissy". Shadow is not fitting in pre-set mould, social constructs created by instagram narcissists. Shadow is not following quick trends set by commercials / corporations or social media.
Taking advantage has nothing to with "too nice" - manipulators simply are manipulative. They know weak spots in all people, including too nice people. If you are not too nice, manipulators would find weak spot not related to too nice facets. Therefore, being nice, friendly, calm and cooperative is not weakness or something you should discard.
Narcissists, manipulators are attracted to nice people because nice people are healthy, friendly, warm and caring. The only problem with this equation is not having filter, not having borders - which means not being honest, not voicing out the elephant in the room, shutting up and self-censorship. Some people can't handle the truth, and manipulators will be warded off by it. Instead of attacking aspects of "too nice", I would rather focus on reasons why people do not speak up, why people shut up and why people self-censor themselves..
Confidence is being confident in not being confident.
I am still shocked everytime when I experience unfair criticism right now - how it is camouflaged and how I accept it as something normal. I am able to catch it now, as oppose to before when I would internalize it and feel bad for some strange and unknown reason afterwards.
I would not connect social anxiety with experiencing intolerance of hysterical people and shutting up to unfair accusations and internalizing it all as my fault, guilt and shame. Shutting up as automatic and default fawning response was to me normal and ok, nothing to be noticed or questioned. What I would notice is someone being rude, it would haunt me and I would ruminate over it, being unable to shake it off from focus, it come up as superimposed over anything keeping me in hyper-vigilant state all the time. Only by learning about Complex trauma helped me to realize what is going on is insanity and it is not my choice and it is not my fault for experiencing it.
You can do mechanical actions - engage in fight response. That will only make you hysterical, a Karen, easily ashamed from all sides. And people pleasing is also a sign you are surrounded by psychopaths - either in past or right now. If you set boundaries - for example deny someone something, say no to them - watch what happens. "Normal" people will respect your wished. "Abnormal" ones will throw temper tantrums. Therefore people pleasing is not one sided behaviour. There is hidden psychopath on the other side that is parasiting over a good, nice, kind and friendly person and then beaten by the society for being good, nice, kind and friendly. Because the society is people pleaser itself. It is easier to attack the easy target than to call out psychopaths and narcissists for their manipulation and aggressive behaviour.
People pleasing can be dealt only when you deal with the original trauma. It is about realization that a mentally ill person and mentally sick environment instilled and ingrained trauma in your psyche the urge to be obedient and serving. Also the society is doing this too without being aware of it. It is when society ashames people who protest - society tells you to shut up. It is when society loses common sense and exalt bullies as competent just because they are rich, thus telling you that you are worthless if you don't have material things to show off. Also, it is when society tries to hide people who are not neither violent nor unkind, but they appear and quickly labelled as "stupid" or "queer" or "boring" or "stubborn" or "geek" or any other toxic shaming label that is bias. The more we suppress non dangerous behaviours in people, the more we are working on our own people pleasing, passivity and being easy target to bullies and aggressive people. Similar to the movie "The incident" from 1967.
Society makes us people pleasers every time we do not allow truth. Every time we label someone troll just because they think differently. Every time we act on cognitive dissonance and are unable to hear different opinion. Without being aware of it, we make ourselves into people pleasers every time we label someone toxic just because it doesn't sooth ourselves, not because they are really dangerous and malicious.
Whoa! thanks, this answers some of things that I could not clear it out in my head.
I find Twitter or You tube comment section as safe polygon, training ground to practice being assertive.
However, there are some complexities. One, is when the other person is being unreasonable and when there is character flaw - so you cannot communicate because they are having low IQ, and some mental issues or they are simply children trapped in adult body so they mock and refuse to listen. The problem starts when you can't leave them for whatever reason and you are stuck with them.
I find narcissists and psychopaths and manipulators also a factor that thwarts assertiveness. In my experience, there are people who will barrage you with guilt and what they perceive as mistake without giving you a chance to defend yourself and they turn their back and leave. So you are left with guilt and shame.
As I understand you addressed this in other video, I'll check it out.
I realized in my case it is Complex Trauma. We were traumatized in childhood by unhealthy environment: being exposed to adult hysteria - as explained in video at 3:40 and being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 that our child brain is unable to process other than internalize toxic shame and trying to be good, nice and people pleasing in order to ward off the wrath, and later in adulthood this turns us into passive passengers similar to the movie "The Incident" 1967.
But to us, it doesn't appear as trauma, it seems normal to be afraid and to carry this heave burden of guilt. With Complex trauma I learned that there is physical reason for this: 1) there is brain injury inside our brain, etched injury that makes us passive and pessimist and 2) the brain is drugging us with chemicals and hormones when we need to stand up for ourselves, thus amygdala is hijacked and we are not in control to react naturally and to address and face conflict without panic attacks that our body is producing to protect us from learned trauma.
This information about physical influences on our thoughts helped me a lot to take control - by relying on my common sense, on knowledge that I gather from great videos like this one, to rely on my logic - instead of on my brain that is injured and that is lying to me and that is producing anxiety and fears in order to protect me by freezing and fawning and isolating myself.
It is about realizing that mental instability is detrimental when we do not move, when we do not take action. People pleasing and not standing up for ourselves is a form of being stuck, being passive and thus it is something that needs fixing.
That heavy guilt is therefore our body influencing our thoughts by chemical inside our body, by hijacking our amygdala - and we are not aware of it. To us it appears as guilt. And we trust our guilt because in all other cases guilt is helpful emotion - it keeps our friendships, it keeps our peace, diplomacy, it makes us to say sorry when we do something wrong. Guilt becomes detrimental when it is based on our trauma and when we use it to subordinate ourselves to toxic people who want to control and manipulate us. Lazy person will gladly make us feel ashamed so that we do not pinpoint their faults. Criminal will gladly make us feel ashamed so that we do not voice out the elephant in the room. So shaming can become a tool to control other people. I see trauma as control weapon tool ingrained inside us from childhood to serve and obey difficult people at that time when we were too little to understand them and when we were too little to do anything about it. And now we just repeat that learned process, instilled to us by mentally ill people from our past. If we were given love and understanding in childhood we would know how assertiveness works and we would not feel guilty or rude when we voice out the elephant in the room, when we are simply stating the facts, when we are being honest, when we speak the truth.
However in real life, people who are pushover and fawning and people pleasing - are reacting and acting like this due to trauma. It is not a choice. IT will not go away by learning skills, unfortunately. This is exactly the reason why CBT therapy is not working. CBT focus on skill, while the whole problem with trauma is in brain itself. Also Ebbinghaus forgetting curve effect will default back to brain's injury.
The brain has injury inside when you are exposed to trauma during long time, especially early on from childhood. There will be invisible brain injury that will default our thinking to being stuck (passive, immobile) and pessimism (negativity, catastrophizing). Instead I can rely on my common sense and logic and intuition and instinct as guide instead of my brain that is injured and that is lying to me, making me afraid and scared.
Also I learned that brain is producing chemicals and hormones that makes us afraid, body creates panic attack when we need to talk, stand up for ourselves, as conditioned in childhood.
Another factor is external referencing locus of control - seeing other people as gods and believing and trusting every word they say as absolute truth. Instead of bringing self worth back to ourselves to cut trauma bonding.
And finally I see Wu Wei as concept to embrace all the things that I can't change - so if I people please and fawn as automatic learned response to trauma - this is something I will always default back to due to ingrained injury inside me. So what I can do about it - is that I can work it to work on my side. For example, I can amplify it so that it becomes a weapon of truth to make exploiters and manipulators see how extreme it is when I make fun of myself. I see speaking out truth and being honest and genuine, voicing out the elephant in the room as healthy. Speaking the truth seems lame and non effective, but in real life, it is very potent, powerful and explosive weapon.
That's true!
I would add: document it all. Sometimes it is hard to discern manipulation, it is hidden and hard to recognize.
And what I learned is to be frank, genuine, honest, authentic. Voicing out the elephant in the room. It is about not shutting up and not self-censoring myself especially when I am accused of something false, untrue. What I see from my perspective, struggling with social anxiety and Complex Trauma perspective this is the reason for people pleasing: 1) I have external referencing issue - this means seeing other people as gods and taking whatever they say as ultimate truth and 2) my body is conditioned into submission: my body will produce chemicals and hormones to illicit panic attack whenever I need to speak up, and defend myself. I was being conditioned to this in childhood for being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and being exposed to adult hysteria when child's brain is unable to process it other than internalizing toxic shame and guilt and fixing others, helping others in order to avoid their potential wrath. I noticed that when I am aware of this body affecting and effecting my thoughts, and amygdala hijacking and Polyvagal theory - that I have more power to not fight my own fears and yet to focus on task to be done rather than rumination and trying to hamster wheel my intrusive worries into endless cycles of trying to solve the unsolvable, being stuck in a rut. I noticed that I lack belief in my own worth, since I put it in other people's hands through external validation and seeking other people's approval and introjection.
Also, I noticed that reacting to unfair situations is hard for intelligent people. It's because a lot of people are or have low IQ, low communications skills, low empathy and a lot of ego-centrism (being a child trapped in grown man's body) and they see their environment from their own perspective, unable to see anything from multiple angles and dimensions. Intelligent people have this ability, so that's what makes us shut up and not react - since the reason to react are all around us all the time. It is being hyper-alerted all the time, so another jerk or another unfair treatment is just one of plenty. It is like we need to get seismograph to discern the quakes that are powerful enough that cross that line, when boundary is being crossed without vagueness.
And that is the problem - manipulators (narcissists, borderliners, parasites, emotional vampires, users, abusers, exploiters), people with low IQ, people with low empathy, egocentric people - therefore all the people who will trigger us, and who are conflict-starters will almost always come off as vague. Extreme attack and extreme aggression, as said in video, is rare occurrence.
I found out that us shutting up, being mute especially when spoken to directly - is the only problem. Not being honest, not talking out the truth. It doesn't have anything to do with special skills or being macho or being expert - it all comes down to not speaking up and telling the truth. That's the only error.
Speaking the truth may seem from this perspective a lame or stupid or non-effective, but as I see in reality, in real world - speaking the truth is very potent, explosive and radical things. Many people have low IQ, low education, low empathy, and especially manipulators - have hidden agenda - and speaking out the truth will irritate them.
There is nothing rude with being objective, speaking out the elephant in the room, being honest. Narcissists hate transparency, they like to gaslight and turn to ad hominem - yet we can always be honest and keep on speaking the truth without explosions, without drama, slowly bringing back the focus to their trespass, transgressions.
"history is filled with stories of disasters that have happened due to people being unwilling to offend. All resorted from groupthink ideologies and other social pressures. Change is often created by those who are willing to go against the evolutionary pressure of opposing the herd. "
You got Peterson wrong here. He is not here a hero. He is producing new generation of men who are subservient to greedy corporations and money. That is what he is doing. He package it under teaching men to be arrogant and narcissists.
"If you have an opinion which is strongly believed in it is your right as a human to express it. Repressing it is betrayal to yourself."
But if you in the same time expose yourself to Socratic method that you mentioned a few minutes earlier - we come to conclusion that there is no absolute truth out there. Just for having strong opinion does not mean that you have the right to impose it to others and to control others. IT is one thing to speak your truth and another to expect people to listen and obey you. Peterson is teaching young men to be obedient and to follow his views - of being jerk, being arrogant, not listening to others and being stubborn. The common sense tell us that we are ego-centric until the age of 12. Psychology tells us that if we believe in one perspective - that this is mental insanity, because as Einstein discovered, world, people , anything in life can be observed from different perspectives, everything is relative. This part is something that Peterson is not teaching, because he is ego-centric. He is a baby trapped in a grown man's body and this is what makes him attractive to male adolescents who are still trapped in ego-centrism and have voice in Jordan to continue being selfish little babies with zero empathy.
6:40 "that's pure narcissism" Oh, suddenly he believes in narcissism as concept when he use it as toxic shame. Jordan Peterson is full of contradictions and vague statements because that's how he works from limited perspective. He reads one book - he will claim one thing. He reads another book - he will claim the opposite. There is no constant in his statements.
For example - my constant in Zoroastrianism : being honest, being genuine, speaking the truth and trying my best to be good, act good and think good. I trust Socrates and Descartes to doubt everything and knowing as human beings we are unable to know everything. Jordan Peterson is telling adolescents that we are gods, that he knows the truth and he has monopoly on absolute truth and he teaches others to invent their own truths. But guess what, stupid people will create chaos by being stubborn in their truth. Criminals and psychopaths will wreck havoc on society by expressing their truths, even by not committing "violence" as you explained is one of requirements to speaking the truth. Manipulators can do more damage by being nice and comforting and pretending to be your friends than being outright violent and abusive.
In fact, people with social anxiety have far superior communication skills that they over exceed common social current norms and standards.
But it comes out, social anxiety comes off as inability to have conversation as if it is problem with talking - since this is common social facet: simply talking with someone.
Social anxiety is fear from criticism. Social anxiety is a part of Complex Trauma. Social anxiety is part of toxic shaming. It is external reference locus of control. It is multi-dimensional problem. You fix or take care of one thing, it will leak at five others aspects that are ignored or not being aware of them at all.
Fear of rejection - not being good enough. IT is codependency issue. Programming in childhood that I put my worth in other people hands. And seeing other people as gods. And that they hold the absolute truth - while Socrates discovered that there is no absolute truth.
Afraid of saying something stupid - it doesn't stop only there. It is being afraid of criticism. Being criticized. It also stems from external validation, putting self worth in other people hands. Social situations will always come along with tripping on things, saying something stupid that someone will mock, appearing as non standard, it is part of socializing but nobody is talking about this - since society itself is sick. Social anxiety is like tango - it requires two parties for dance. It means there is manipulator, narcissist and psychopath on the other side. Social anxiety is indicator that there are sick, mentally ill people out there that either mock others or are unkind aggressive to others. So problem is not socially anxious person, problem are unrecognized sociopaths out there. Because who is the one who will be judge about what is accepted and normal and not weird?
From socially anxious perspective - putting yourself out there will not work if I have external referencing locus of control - it will only make me people pleaser, fawning, pushover and easy targets for manipulators and narcissists and psychopaths who only await for insecure people who are desperate to please others and build their truth and confidence based on society and societal norms, whatever that may be.
This whole video is just whoa. IT is complex trauma wounds open and healed. And from social anxiety perspective I have spent so many years trying to get this information, and I never got it. I read so many resources about how to handle conflict. This is it. This is information I needed to hear.
Thank you.
"control your temper. Dysregulation is so intense.
When you've been wrong say so.
To say these words It is so disarming to people.
Promise you'll think their idea. You might be wrong it is very comfortable to them, it alleviates pressure. Thank them sincerely for their interest.
With cptsd we think people are out there to get us.
Will my reaction draw my opponent closer to me or drive them away?
for those who freeze: if I'm quiet will it actually blow over?
When one person yells, the other should listen. Alternative is to yell back or freeze. Listening to yelling will active so much old trauma,
Suggest that you might be wrong."
I simply would notice more things to worry about and I would be painfully aware that I am now anxious about being anxious.
Only this year, after I learned about Complex Trauma, I learned why CBT is unhelpful - CBT explains the operation, but it is lacking the motor. It lacks love. Human touch. It lacks empathy. Since trauma is abandonment - being wounded by denying normal human reactions and expressions, CBT is actually recreating abandonment trauma. Just as a strict parent - it's desire is to help and to care about the target, but being Nurse Ratched - means being covert narcissist. And that is CBT. It is sterile, cold therapy that does more damage than good. It is successful at identifying what problem is, but the same as Nurse Ratched character, it fails at the deliverance of the same ideology it describes. CBT is missing love component, care and empathy, understanding the other person.
I made a video about CBT needing upgrade. CBT ignores external referencing, Polyvagal theory, brain injury (it handles the brain but in the same time does not come up with idea to scan the brain to check is there injury there - narcissists and abuse can cause brain injury and injury can be discovered with brain scan), also CBT misses to literally say that Toxic shame is hallucination, that self worth is inside us as Super Ego, CBT ignores the influence of External factor (narcissists, abusers, exploiters, users, parasites, emotional vampires) upon unsuspecting targets, also CBT ignores the fact that persona and personality is intertwined with fears, phobias and mental instabilities. CBT also ignores Savant syndrome. There is chronic lack of seeing the person as human being, CBT is approaching human being as a piece of paper (or I might use some vulgar word instead).
You are correct. It is fascinating phenomena and it is related to philosophy but also to psychology and sociology.
Usually when people talk about people pleasing they talk about it from one side, from one angle, it is limited and skewed view: it is perspective about manipulation and getting exploited.
However if we dig a little, yes - there is altruistic side.
Then there is abuse/trauma side.
And lastly, there is high IQ side - what would happen if Nikola Tesla, knowing what electricity can do to humanity - was talked into therapy and that he was explained that his urge and need to help humanity was codependency issue and that his real issue is trauma. And that other people will use him up and steal his inventions, and crony capitalists will hide away free electricity part from humanity anyway.
That is good example why I would abstain from external referencing and always listen to my own common sense, my logic, intuition and instinct. I would listen to others, but the final decision would not be influenced by someone's view that is most probably biased, skewed and full of logical fallacies to begin with.
Type 1) People please - self blame, focus on others, need to be needed, caretake others.
and
Type 2) Doing - take over, Martyr/Superior, Self-important, needs to suggest, change others.
Both types got these in common: being passive aggressive, manipulate, indirect communication, control and boundary problems.
And I am more of people pleasing type. This means, I will not offer advice. Or certainly I will not say something that I know is not pleasing to other person for the fear of their temper tantrum. This fear of other people's reaction kept me out of being rescuer. I think I would be also rescuer type 2 without this fear from people and their potential criticism.
That puts me in Karpman’s triangle cycle anyway - because since I am silent people use me as punching bag. For example, I was literally been verbally attacked for "working too much". But I also noticed later on, that people who attacked me were toxic. Either sociopaths or borderliners - and as Karpman’s triangle predicted - I had impossible task to cut contact with them even when I realized that they were toxic.
What I learned to break the cycle is that it comes down to be honest, speaking the truth, that there is no absolute truth out there so my opinion counts, too.
Also, one thing that is recurring with codependency and any other psychology issue - is that I am starting to realize - it is not my fault. I learned all that people pleasing issues from others, from people around me. It takes two to tango. Because: abnormal behaviour is reaction to abnormal people and abnormal situations and it is normal reaction to abnormality. For example, it just may turn out that I might be more clever than other people - and I can see what other people do wrong. So - I help them. Problem starts when this process turns into exploitation and unhealthy dynamics such as blaming me and not tolerating my opinion. People can't handle the truth - they will feel cognitive dissonance and become defensive. If I am not aware of this, I will explain other people's anger and temper tantrum as it is my fault, that there is something wrong with me. I struggled with inferiority complex because of this, without being aware I have inferiority complex issues. I simply would believe everyone anything they say, and I would engage automatically in instant trauma bonding and external referencing. There would never be any spark of doubt and that other people may be lying or that they might be dumb. I would always automatically see other people as gods. I think this external locus of control belief plays a crucial role in codependency issues.
I love the Karpman’s triangle concept explained in the book. It makes it clear why it is important to disengage after I done what I could. It helps, it will help us to recognize toxic dynamics. Without knowing it, I would try to justify myself or try to seek solution to unsolvable people and situations, or at least do this cycle of trying to find solution in my head - since I would avoid direct conflict with others.
I am aware I cannot control other people - otherwise it is cognitive distortion.
Also I am aware I did try to manipulate others by pouting, this was huge discovery for me.
And I find information about codependency important, as to find balance between knowing when something is wrong and voicing it out versus trying to fix someone.
As codependent who is afraid of people's reaction, that puts me in being candidate to moral injury: as I understand, "normal" codependents will talk and communicate, whereas I end up being servant, silent and obeying and smiling back to people when they accuse me of something false, wrong or untrue.
And as I understand, the cure for this complex matter is so simple: being honest, voicing out the elephant in the room, especially when someone engages into conflict and is openly demanding something that is unreasonable. And wherever possible - to cut contact with unreasonable people prone to exploiting others.
Yeah thank you! This makes sense.
I have that presence of feeling that there are certain emotions that are forbidden. It feels like a burden, it feels like a heavy cloud above. And if I allow them, I am convinced that I will be unreasonable, so I don't allow myself to get angry. And what happens in real life - is that I turn into people pleaser and easy target for manipulators since I do not show boundaries that can only be set by emotions as anger - that I do not allow myself to express.
"Our subconscious can be healed and reprogrammed."
Not to people who went through Complex Trauma. Narcissists cause brain injury, it can be detected with brain scan.
3 months later after making my comment here on you tube, and I learned that brain injury is causing me to default to intrusive worry and pessimism. It is not a matter of "subconscious".
It is body thing. Voltaire talked about it. Descartes talked about it. Body is working against ourselves. It releases hormones and chemicals in the crucial moment when I need to stand up for myself, keeping me trapped into self-censorship and mutism.
"we bully our own selves through a continual negative internal dialogue"
I realized this is also not true actually. The problem is not negative inner talk at all. Shockingly, it is the opposite: my beliefs, convictions, perceptions, conclusions that I pontificate myself to be kind, nice, good person. This actually attract bullies, not as you said bullying myself.
I see Wu Wei as healthy approach to life - wherever there is accusations and fault finding - there is instant reaction and opposition to it. For example you said:
" Healing our subconscious programming (formed in childhood) and the core wounds, connecting to ourselves, makes us bully proof. "
This sentence in itself is carrying a virus that keeps us afraid and keeps us in fear mentality. Look at it again. What you actually said is:
1) that there is danger out there. Brain will pick on this information in different way. Brain is wired to keep us protected. It will invent danger to keep us safe, imagine all possible danger. So when you say that bully is so strong that I need to underwent psychological odyssey to heal myself - you are actually giving the bully so much power that right in the start you make bully to be super-villain.
2) another thing you are saying is that I need some weird psychological mumbo jumbo techniques - in order to be "normal" and "healed". That is nonsense. You are super imposing psychological surgery - to become what? Super human? This is equivalent in plastic surgery where people try to correct themselves into becoming perfect, but end up being freaks.
Also this statement made me sick actually all these years:
"Our subconscious can be healed and reprogrammed. "
Stockdale paradox tells us when we confront brutal facts, we can overcome issues. People who can't accept permanent condition get lost and perish. They live in anguish. Brain injury is real. If I think that magically I can erase past hurt and future incidents, I am living in fantasy world that will fall like deck of cards at first obstacle. On the other hand, being aware of brain injury - no matter if it is permanent or not, I have the power to step out of the car and push it by not relying on my brain, since my brain will lie to me. Anxiety lies to us, it gives us wrong information. Instead I realized I can trust my Super ego, common sense, logic, intuition and instinct. Brain injury makes me stuck in intrusive worry, and being healthy is not being stuck - it is being active and doing chores that needs to be done, instead of focusing on worry.
And lastly,
"they hit up against some belief we already possess about ourselves."
Bullies are mentally ill. Let's start with that. They hate facts, they hate objectivity and they hate transparency - as any other narcissists, psychopaths, sociopath, exploiter, user, emotional vampire. Telling the truth is biggest weapon.
In my case, I had issue with external referencing due to Complex Trauma. I made other people into gods. I believed whatever they say without ever considering they might be totally wrong. That's what attracts bullies - people pleasing and being pushover due to trauma I went, programming in childhood when I was exposed to adult hysteria and relentless criticism 24/7 that child brain is unable to process other than internalizing and introjecting toxic shame inside.
Descartes Evil demon hypothesis taught me to doubt everyone - other people and even my brain - since it has injuries - it cannot be trusted.
All I can trust is science - psychology, I can trust great thinkers, and I can trust my common sense and logic, my inner internet database. I can listen to others but as oppose to before, I can filter them out or even block them - or better yet confront them when they are telling lies.
Reaction depends on the circumstances, and in most cases it is not important. However this can add with time into being passive and being unable to move when it is needed the most.
To make it more complex, there are people with issues from childhood where they were programmed to be obedient, to serve narcissists and toxic people and now they have injury inside, it is open wound that defaults thinking process onto intrusive worry and pessimism. For those people it is difficult to not be bothered, since rude people are picking on that wound inside. It triggers them to the original trauma. Ignoring and pretending nothing is happening is detrimental, it adds up to trauma and moral injury. That's detrimental because such people turn into people pleasing and being pushover, so they need to set boundaries, since they never learned them in young age.
And another angle - are people who have higher IQ - they will be bothered by everyone. Soon, more clever people learn it is best to develop peaceful attitude - because the alternative is becoming hysterical about anything all the time. There are so many transgressions and mistakes, all the time, by all people everywhere. The problem here is the same as for people with brain injury due to being exposed to narcissistic people - you condition yourself to be calm all the time, even in times and circumstances where conflict is needed to solve issues that otherwise would repeat or cause additional new damage.
We can speak the truth. That is not rude. Just because we talk back to people - it doesn't mean it has to be drama and explosions. I see interdependence and long spoon allegory as example. I can voice out the elephant in the room if I see it. I can speak the truth when I know that there is no absolute truth (due to paradox of knowledge). I can be honest, genuine and authentic. I can be frank and be transparent - because problem are manipulators. There are people out there (that I call external factor) - that purposely break unwritten social rules just to exploit someone or carry their agenda. If we do not react to external factor, it is like allowing virus entering in the body and doing whatever they want. I am talking about situations where I am directly accused of something untrue, false and incorrect. If I do not speak out my version, my truth - there could be damage. Stupidly simple example may be that you get pop up message on twitter notifying you that you used forbidden word - used out of context - and you are offered to say ok or deny it. You might think - they got it all wrong, I don't want to mess with this and I don't want to waste energy in proving them wrong so I'll click ok - but guess what happens next - you are banned from Twitter and you are now labelled as bad guy - because you agreed ok to their false accusations. This stuff happens in real life too.
We want to be kind, nice, not to rock the boat - but in certain situations, people may take advantage of us. We do not need to counter them with drama, explosions and hysteria. We can tell the truth, be objective and be transparent. If we are not evil, there is no reason to be ashamed or hide or run away. We can speak the truth and then go away. We can even block them, but after we said our truth. Running away immediately leads to isolation.
Our brain will label difficult situations as danger - and very soon our brain will condition us to anxiety, panic attacks, agoraphobia, social phobia - it will limit our lives and socializing.
On the other hand, if I develop tolerance on difficult people by allowing them to be jerks but in the same time to feel I am on par with them, I can try to agree and communicate and talk to them first, without allergy reaction of running away and blocking them on the first sign of disagreement. If I judge and label toxic people as toxic - paradoxically in the same time I am making myself sterile and unable to move.
I see better way - is to be natural. To respond to each situation and people individually. If there is yelling and screaming, I can forgive myself for making mistake of losing temper. The problem starts when I start to make general rules, obligations and demands that are not realistic and objective. Always I can talk and speak out and alarm and alert other person when they are rude. Why not say to clerk: "You are rude." when they are rude? "I am not rude to you, there is no reason to be hysterical". "I can be hysterical too" - for example why I would not speak out that? If there is someone that I will block anyway - and door slam them, at least they deserve to know what they did wrong. Some people are dumb. Many people will change their behavior when you speak out honestly what they did. Many people are narcissists and they will try to keep image of good person, so they will continue being rude if no one tells them in their face when they are rude. I bet many of us were in situations when we did speak up only to find out from others that we are over-sensitive and they were not rude. So our weapon is speaking the truth - being objective and being transparent.
As I said, if we do not have ill will, if we do not want to harm anyone, there is no reason to run away or be ashamed by anyone or feel ashamed.
I would go with option to be natural, genuine and practical. When we allow people to be jerks (which means not worry about it and think about it) - in the same time I allow myself to make mistakes and to express myself naturally as event, situation or person present themselves.
If I want to be nice and kind and good - I will self-censor myself and my body will produce panic attack symptoms that will cause to shut up. When good people shut up, evil flourishes.
Talking the truth do not have to be drama and explosions. And I can speak my part and leave, I do not need to engage in conflict if the other party does not want to resolve. Borderliners and narcissists love drama and fight - problem is to identify them as borderliners and narcissists so I can filter them out. Many other people will listen and try to cooperate. That's the reason why speaking up and talking and communication is important, other than quickly leaving and pretending I am not bothered.
Ignoring the gossip will not make it go away. Staying and choosing to stay with toxic people will not turn me into healthy person with time, it will be the opposite. And running away and having allergy reaction to difficult people - without collecting all the data beforehand, and without alarming and alerting them is not healthy option to live life either.
"Our subconscious can be healed and reprogrammed."
Not to people who went through Complex Trauma. Narcissists cause brain injury, it can be detected with brain scan.
3 months later after making my comment here on you tube, and I learned that brain injury is causing me to default to intrusive worry and pessimism. It is not a matter of "subconscious".
It is body thing. Voltaire talked about it. Descartes talked about it. Body is working against ourselves. It releases hormones and chemicals in the crucial moment when I need to stand up for myself, keeping me trapped into self-censorship and mutism.
"we bully our own selves through a continual negative internal dialogue"
I realized this is also not true actually. The problem is not negative inner talk at all. Shockingly, it is the opposite: my beliefs, convictions, perceptions, conclusions that I pontificate myself to be kind, nice, good person. This actually attract bullies, not as you said bullying myself.
I see Wu Wei as healthy approach to life - wherever there is accusations and fault finding - there is instant reaction and opposition to it. For example you said:
" Healing our subconscious programming (formed in childhood) and the core wounds, connecting to ourselves, makes us bully proof. "
This sentence in itself is carrying a virus that keeps us afraid and keeps us in fear mentality. Look at it again. What you actually said is:
1) that there is danger out there. Brain will pick on this information in different way. Brain is wired to keep us protected. It will invent danger to keep us safe, imagine all possible danger. So when you say that bully is so strong that I need to underwent psychological odyssey to heal myself - you are actually giving the bully so much power that right in the start you make bully to be super-villain.
2) another thing you are saying is that I need some weird psychological mumbo jumbo techniques - in order to be "normal" and "healed". That is nonsense. You are super imposing psychological surgery - to become what? Super human? This is equivalent in plastic surgery where people try to correct themselves into becoming perfect, but end up being freaks.
Also this statement made me sick actually all these years:
"Our subconscious can be healed and reprogrammed. "
Stockdale paradox tells us when we confront brutal facts, we can overcome issues. People who can't accept permanent condition get lost and perish. They live in anguish. Brain injury is real. If I think that magically I can erase past hurt and future incidents, I am living in fantasy world that will fall like deck of cards at first obstacle. On the other hand, being aware of brain injury - no matter if it is permanent or not, I have the power to step out of the car and push it by not relying on my brain, since my brain will lie to me. Anxiety lies to us, it gives us wrong information. Instead I realized I can trust my Super ego, common sense, logic, intuition and instinct. Brain injury makes me stuck in intrusive worry, and being healthy is not being stuck - it is being active and doing chores that needs to be done, instead of focusing on worry.
And lastly,
"they hit up against some belief we already possess about ourselves."
Bullies are mentally ill. Let's start with that. They hate facts, they hate objectivity and they hate transparency - as any other narcissists, psychopaths, sociopath, exploiter, user, emotional vampire. Telling the truth is biggest weapon.
In my case, I had issue with external referencing due to Complex Trauma. I made other people into gods. I believed whatever they say without ever considering they might be totally wrong. That's what attracts bullies - people pleasing and being pushover due to trauma I went, programming in childhood when I was exposed to adult hysteria and relentless criticism 24/7 that child brain is unable to process other than internalizing and introjecting toxic shame inside.
Descartes Evil demon hypothesis taught me to doubt everyone - other people and even my brain - since it has injuries - it cannot be trusted.
All I can trust is science - psychology, I can trust great thinkers, and I can trust my common sense and logic, my inner internet database. I can listen to others but as oppose to before, I can filter them out or even block them - or better yet confront them when they are telling lies.
Oh great! I finally can check some questions I have directly to people working in medical profession. I will post them along with comments here.
" It shows that you have learned helplessness and victim mentality"
Yep. And I was aware of this even before I learned concepts that explained me what is going on.
The information that I was conditioned into victim mentality does not help me at all. Because the central problem is external referencing, trauma bonding. I see other people as gods. I was instilled with message that everything I think is wrong and society - especially loud and aggressive people are automatically correct and I must take literally their every word as ultimate truth and my personal command.
My issue is social anxiety.
So my question to medical experts is - why social anxiety resources are devoid of information about Complex Trauma? I would learn about external validation locus of control, dysregulation and fawning and response to people who trigger me. Without this information, I follow social anxiety official advice - which is dealing with physical symptoms and calming down - which does not help with people pleasing and being pushover at all.
"your perpetuating traumatic thinking to yourself, and dis-empowerment, is highly self abusive. THAT is what bullies hone in on"
What I learned literally this past week is that actually what made my thinking distorted are the rules that I imposed myself as an attempt to be kind and pleasant person - by being the opposite from being hysterical people that I was exposed to.
Bullying from my perspective is not limited to people who don't have boundaries. Bullying is complex set - from my experience, it is being stuck in a job because I live in corrupt, poor country where you can't get another job easily, so you do not confront anyone, you keep silent to keep your job. The alternative is to be homeless or suicide, since I won't be able to have shelter, food or security.
That's what bullies feed on. Maslow needs. Not my childhood fears of feeling attacked if someone looks me the wrong way. In that same way , I cannot remove myself from others. Other than learned strategy of social anxiety, withdrawal, isolation and being closed from others, not going to parties, not forming friendships, not engaging in conversations.
"People pleading and being a pushover…are both forms of self betrayal"
I agree with you on that.
What I do not agree with you is CBT that you are actually talking here.
CBT is being aware of ANT and you are saying that we should consciously tackle our negative beliefs.
From my experience - 1) this is absolute truth and correct however 2) it does not work in real life.
In real life, CBT and ANT are creating people pleasing attitude and being pushover. CBT creates more anxiety and fears because analysis leads to paralysis. I actually made a video why CBT needs upgrade.
CBT is equivalent to Nurse Ratched - cold, sterile medical professional who is actually abusing their patients through covert narcissism - lack of love, trying to control others in order to feel worthy. CBT is repeating the trauma - because it recreates abandonment that the target experienced in childhood:
deny your emotions, deny your personality, deny your natural reactions.
Fawning is not totally bad, it has good sides.
People pleasing is not absolute negative behaviour, it serves its purpose in certain situations.
What I learned is that hormones and chemicals inside our body influence our decisions.
Also brain injury defaults my thinking to negativity and immobility.
And Ebbinghaus Forgetting curve will delete anything that CBT will try to educate me about.
I see better solution in being honest, being genuine, accepting my faults and mistakes and work on that, and to rely on my common sense and my IQ to guide me.
Any other weird and complex and difficult instructions will not work.
I am now. I learned this thanks to Descartes Evil Demon Hypothesis. Now I doubt everyone and everything and even my conclusions. I am aware now of biases and logical fallacies and paradoxes. I made plenty of videos about them. I am aware now that there is no absolute truth.
"the anosognosia"
I learned that this is not my thing. The society itself does not recognize emotions and emotional states they are in. They pretend and may believe in their own interpretations, but that doesn't make them correct. I learned that writing helps to clear the mind and it works - I've been writing blog about social anxiety and made progress simply by putting it all on paper. This comments section on you tube i helpful, too.
"The warping of fixed, absolute narratives"
That is what I talked about absolute truth. I am aware now that believing in one thing is road to mental instability.
What I would ask someone who is working with CBT is why would someone try to engage in CBT without making brain scan to see if there is brain injury to begin with?
"the suffering stuckness of a self imposed prison of the mind. "
Which leads to valid question - what is mental health and mental instability? As I see, mental instability is not being able to move on, not being active, being stuck. Being silent and mutism.
What I see from your comments is that you jump to conclusions too quickly.
I would say that it is very dangerous to give someone medical evaluation over 2 or 3 comments.
Also, as I learned, everyone is warped through some lenses. The only difference is that I am aware of this concept and I explore it and I am open to discuss about it. Other people are not aware this concept exists. And some people like to judge others to be warped as a way to project their lenses onto others.
"often the stuck thinking creates behaviors that are anything but mute"
Well, in my case my social inhibitions were in its worst stage as being mute. I could not speak out my opinions, I was so afraid what someone will say or criticize me. Also, I resort to fawn and freeze response in situations where I feel threatened. So, yeah from my perspective, mutism is an issue. It is self-censorship where I know what to say, I know what happened and yet another person is accusing me of something untrue and false.
"would you try to argue and argue and be hostile"
You are talking about my comments here? I am not arguing. I am stating the facts as objectively as I see them. If I were really hostile, I would use curse words and I would stick to Ad Hominem, I would label you as mentally insane.
"Are the bullies really bullies? Or are they tired of the bullshit? "
My bullies repertoire was:
1) kindergarden nanny that came to my bed and slap me in face when I was sleeping, or slap me when I would pee in my pants.
2) kid in grammar school who called me nancy and sissy because I wore long stockings in winter and I did not know how to play soccer
3) coworker who was bosss son and got his job through nepotism, calling me weak and without backbone because I was always silent, and kind and nice to clients.
And you never answered my questions, so I think you are the one who is stubborn and can't handle cognitive dissonance. As I said, Nurse Ratched. I detected you the minute you started to comment.
How can you give example about bullies and calling someone oranges? I am not child here. Bullies are manipulators, they cause serious psychological damage.
You see people as carboard paper. I really feel sorry for people you treated. I think you mistreated them and lead them to wrong way, but I guess money was good to parasite over other people troubles, and leading them on as long as they pay you.
Just because someone does not agree with you - it doesn't mean you have the right to label that person crazy. That is rude, at least.
You are short-sighted and stuck in tunnel vision and it seems to me you have some serious mental issues yourself, you are just projecting them onto me or any stranger that thinks differently or call onto your BS.
As I said in my original comment, my own issue and the only problem was being stuck in intrusive worry.
Your argument was CBT and denial of what I just said - you can take it or leave it.
"The belief that one's own view of reality is the only reality is the most dangerous of all delusions."
Paul Watzlawick
"Cognitive distortions are simply the result of how our surrounding shaped us!"
This is crucial statement.
It is similar to Coriolis effect on global plane - wind and water currents will shape and fawn in the direction of how the planet is moving. It is not that it is a matter of personal choice or perk, quirk or caprice.
CBT ignores this fact. CBT says that we should correct the current and that external influences cannot be the cause of distortions - or if they do, that we should ignore externals and focus on our symptoms.
That is why I see CBT as wrong approach. It is cold, mechanical and it is basically trying to make project how to land on the Moon in Renaissance. CBT presumes that we are already "normal" and it describes the techniques that are produced and applicable to "normal" people who never experienced trauma and serious distortions.
To make my point clearly - it is rather realizing that instead of swimming against the current I can discover that there are currents that go in the way I want to go, but it just takes a different route than I am aware currently.
Or,
instead of wasting precious time, energy and money on the project landing on the Moon, I have to be objective and realistic - and see that at the current time I lack knowledge and technology to land on the Moon - however I can discover the Earth instead - or investigate the Moon and other space rocks already present here.
I am not fan of CBT. I tried it and it made me more anxious, fearful and lead me straight to people pleasing and fawning and being pushover, since it did not dealt the other issues hidden beneath the Freud's iceberg.. CBT is focusing only on the little tip of iceberg that is visible on the surface.
And as psychologist he should know that this happens due to rules he imposed on himself such as 'don't have a pause or other person will think something bad about me'. Which is indication that he has no self trust as good person, that he sees other people as better, and there is unawareness that pause is natural and even beneficial thing to reorganize your thinking focus.
"pay more attention to situation and people you are talking to"
That is not advice for social anxiety. This is advice for common shyness.
Social anxiety makes you already zoomed onto other people. Social anxiety is being acutely paying attention to the situation and people around and interpreting everything in negative way, it is being hyperalert and hypervigilant before entering a social situation. Social anxiety is fear from other people criticism and social anxiety will make you pay a lot of attention to people. In time this turns into people pleasing, being pushover, inferiority complex and external reference locus of control, since I make myself believe that I am unworthy and inept to be good enough to base any decision, thought or belief on myself. This advice to look at others is social anxiety itself. It will turn into a fear of making mistake, since I want to push away spotlight effect from me, which makes it more stronger and persistent.
Better advice would be - knowing that in social situations I will make mistake, I will make a fool out of myself no matter what I do or say, that there will be someone who will be annoying and talking nonsense, that it is ok to make mistake, that it is ok if I decide to shut up, to pause, or to talk - that I am totally and absolutely fine with myself being myself.
Social anxiety is trauma of abandonment, in childhood we were abandoned by our environment, we were programmed through relentless criticism 24/7 that our opinion does not matter and that we must not express our thoughts, feelings or draw any attention to ourselves - and Peterson's advice is actually repetition of this abandonment. He suggest socially anxious person to abandon my pause, my awkwardness, that I separate myself from my persona, personality, quirks, perks, caprices and peculiarities and that I become sheep, blend into herd, groupthink and go along with others, as a way not to rock the boat. His faulty advice to see other people as gods and to serve them is an advice that leads to social anxiety.
This is recipe for PureOCD. Dealing with intrusive thoughts by entertaining them in your head, rumination. Trying to solve the unsolvable. This leads only to more anxiety. Brain will try to keep us safe so it throws us sticks, and then we chase for them. Brain will see that we feel good when we protect ourselves, it releases chemicals and hormones and then we get hooked in solving the problems that the brain will gladly give us to solve.
Anxiety is not meant to be decreased. It is natural signal that something is wrong.
It is the same as if we get sting by nettle - and then we can decide to never go to nature and develop agoraphobia in order to decrease the sting and hurt and pain.
Social anxiety is a sign that there is someone in our life that is toxic. Either in past or right now. It takes two to tango. Social anxiety is called social because it is related to other people, that word social means. Peterson advice to ruminate about anxiety means he ignores the social part.
His advice will lead us to stay stuck with toxic people and never focus on good people, because we are unable to filter out the negative external influences that are causing our anxiety.
Meditation is great - as any other indoor activity far away from grueling social mishaps.
Meditation starts to be problem when it becomes on demand. It will add up to anxiety because we will expect to be calm if we meditate. As if mediation will solve our problems - instead of facing them and making projects and making good decisions in life. Meditation also starts to be a problem when it becomes escape fantasy. Stockdale paradox tells us that we accept brutal facts and strive to live anyway. It is said that people who refused to accept brutal facts fared unfavorably in difficult military situations since they developed escape fantasy instead. That is why I do not prefer meditation as a tool for anxiety. It is help, it is sprinkle sugar coating, but making it prime focus is wrong turn that will result in more anxiety actually.
As I said, if your "anxiety" is gone by mediation, you probably never had it in the first place. Social anxiety is continuous 24/7 hypervigilance and hyperalert state, waiting for trigger. It is Complex Trauma and Polyvagal Theory. IT is not a mere glimpse of unhappiness or pouting that would go away on its own.
It is also being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 that does not appear as criticism since I didn't know what is normal and warm and kind behaviour to a child. It is being exposed to adult hysteria that child brain is unable to process other then developing social anxiety later on. jSo for me, it turns in automatic serving and obeying others which turns into inferiority complex - seeing other people as gods and believing their words are ultimate truth, only guidance and even if they are wrong, somehow it is my fault.
"Ego defense mechanism"
Yes! You are the first one to mentions immature ego defense mechanism, and I follow social anxiety videos released on You tube, every Monday for 5 years now. Which is interesting topic - why social anxiety is not researched and this information about trauma and ego defense is not available in random google search about social anxiety from medical resources.. I learned this is because the research for social anxiety is expensive and it takes a lifetime span in order to study it - whereas even concepts as CPTSD are not recognized by official medical experts.
"We think they are so confident, but it is persona, an act. Until you see this you will always think something is wrong with you. "
Yeah, I realized this last summer when I stumble upon DK psychology book and this quote by Ervin Goffman: "We are all just actors trying to control and manage our public image, we act based on how others might see us."
"Sometimes it is not practical to be radically authentic all the time. Someone attack you, you want to use your persona very well and suppress your emotions to do that.Suppression of emotion, putting on a mask, act in a certain way takes a lot of mental energy. "
Whoa. This gives me an answer and I need to process this. My problem with social anxiety, central issue is inability to handle tough situations and hysterical people. This what you said makes sense however it raises additional questions and realizations. How come I did not learn to put on a mask? Other people do it naturally, they learned in their childhood and adolescence to deal with reality by pretending to be something else. As I become aware of Complex Trauma, I think this may be for socially anxious people is not being allowed to express myself in any way - including the fake mask way.
Which leads to realization I had when I learned about Complex Trauma: is that I feel ashamed even when I do the correct things, I feel ashamed when I assert myself. I think I do not deserve certain rights, it was programmed in me that I give up my space and rights in order to obey, serve and please other people, especially if they are rude, loud and violent.
I see this mask concept as something I am trying to do now. I am listing all the situations where I feel afraid - and then I will go each by each defining what I am doing by default as reaction and then I will write what is logical thing to do, what would healthy person do in such situation. For example, with social anxiety I would not alarm and alert someone who is rude. I would self-censor myself and I would even smile back to them, even if they accused me of something untrue and totally false in order to not rock the boat. Similar to the movie The incident (1967) with Martin Sheen.
For me these are actually not the reason why I am fawning.
These are: to avoid other people's temper tantrum, mocking and fear of not fulfilling any Maslow need related to shelter. Being afraid of ending up homeless where hoodlums might pee on me while I starve and sleep in the open cold streets. Also the sense of embarrassment is overwhelming, someone pontificating me, pinpointing at me, accusing me of being idiot just for asking for what I want - so I don't ask anything and I isolate myself. At least I did until I discovered this external referencing locus of control that you also mention here.
I am aware that internalized toxic shame is hallucination. And I am aware of placing self worth to myself, trusting my common sense and logic as oppose automatically thinking others are gods. Also it helped me to realize last summer that as Socrates said there is no absolute truth, so others may be wrong and I may allow myself to doubt everyone and everything, even my anxiety brain, as Descartes said with his Evil Demon hypothesis.. That helped me a lot to snap out of people pleasing hypnosis.
And as I now have this knowledge that there is trauma bonding process underneath, I am shocked again and again when I am in external world how much I am fawning - that I was not even aware I was fawning at all. It was perfectly normal for me to give up my rights and my place and my space to even imaginary stranger that might come next to me, that I have this relentless belief that I am burden and that I am bothering other people and that I am in the way.
I learned thanks to Complex Trauma information that this is due to brain injury - that defaults my thinking in two patterns: being stuck in intrusive worry (immobility, being passive) and pessimism. So I can rely on my common sense and logic, intuition and instinct, Super-Ego instead of trusting my injured wounded brain that is broadcasting lies and false beliefs appearing real. Also I realized that embarrassment related to social anxiety is stuck on me like a leech because of this brain injury, it will default to this toxic shame by default. And hormones and chemicals inside, as my brain floods me with stress hormones whenever I need to stand up for myself is keeping me in a loop of feeling shame if I do anything that might be perceived as action and mobility.
This is not social anxiety.
"do things even if they feel uncomfortable with."
I did, and I ended up with people pleasing, fawning, being pushover, self-censorship, being silent and quiet, shutting up, not alarming and alerting people. That is social anxiety. Facing fears will not resolve social anxiety because problem is Complex trauma.
Going out in social situations, being social, will not resolve social anxiety.
"move towards this"
Yep. That is the key. Action, movement. However for people with social anxiety they have to accept brutal fact of having brain injury inside that defaults our anxious brain to immobility and negativity.
"fear of death out there, embarrassment"
Nope. Social anxiety is fear of criticism. Being unable to react to conflict, confrontation other than 4F trauma responses - usually fawning is choice for social anxious people since they are kind, normal, friendly, open, warm people. Social anxiety is fear from other people temper tantrums. It is living in expectancy that someone will attack unprovoked, so it is better to isolate or stay quiet. Polyvagal theory: being hypervigilant, hyper-alert all the time. That is social anxiety. Therefore, going out will not help. That is the reason why they renamed social phobia into social anxiety. If it was phobia - it would go off by exposing to the feared object.
Social anxiety is intertwined with personality so that makes it complex also.
Which means: who is the ultimate judge what is normal social behaviour? Socially anxious people try to fit in, so they feel incredible pressure to over-compensate their fears which often lead to catastrophe - because being honest, genuine, authentic is the only way to live happy and fulfilled life. Being honest does not mean I spill my secrets to strangers or anyone willing to listen - that they will use this information later on against me.
Being honest does not mean serving and obeying social constructs of being nice and kind in situations when someone is hysterical, dangerous and violent.
"repetitive behaviour, withdrawing from society, worrying about everything, feeling guilty."
I would lump all of them in two words: being stuck.
It is like a car that is stuck in the mud and you press on pedal trying to spin the wheels out but the car is stuck no matter how much you try, wheels are spinning in one place. Or being on a frozen lake, and due to ice you can't drive. That is being stuck. Immobility. Passivity. Mutism. Being unable to speak. Being scared into submission and inferiority complex.
I see solution as to step out of the car and give it a push.
In real life it would mean do chores, do some task, start activity, being active. Not for the sake of being busy, it is a matter of daily tasks that needs to be done anyway. We wait for our brain to start feeling good enough to be mobile, but it won't. And our brain is lying to us. Because anxiety lies to us, it gives us false messages. Besides being immobile, it is a overwhelming sense of negativity, pessimism and catastrophizing.
So instead of our brain, we rely on our common sense, logic, gathered knowledge, intuition, instinct, super-ego, our inner internet database, the behaviour, actions and decisions we have observed until now, our experience, deciding what is correct based on this artificial intelligence inside us - instead of relying on our brain that is injured and is transmitting fears and hallucinations, toxic shame that appear as true. Being active means being healthy. When we worry we will forget small things that needs to be done - take our keys or valet when leaving apartment. There is always something that needs to be done - to be cleaned or taken care of. With intrusive worry we forget those small activities and we get numb, trying to solve the unsolvable problems in our heads, due to this brain injury, being exposed to trauma.
If we stop being honest, authentic and genuine, we are actually being imposters and people will sniff this out and attack us - mock us or simply avoid us. People hate being told the truth but in the same time people hate being fake. That is complex and paradox - but solution is to have self worth where it belongs - inside us, instead of giving it to other people.
Being outside and forcing yourself to be outside will only end up with being pushover, people pleasing and fawning. Anxiety and fears that we feel do not belong to us actually. It is reaction to past trauma or present ones - it takes two to tango. If we have social anxiety is is a sign there was or still is psychopath, some very toxic person or more of them in our midst.
Urge to improve will make us like those Hollywood rich freaks who undergo plastic surgery, frantically trying to change and improve perceived ugliness and what they perceive as faulty.
In the end - who is the ultimate judge what is ideal of perfection? If we put this power of what we are suppose to be in other people hands, it is a road to hell, mental instability and illness in long term. Other people cannot lead our lives, it is not their business. If we try to improve ourselves by following some imaginary standards set by other people it leads to codependency, herd mentality and sheep mentality, groupthink. It is not good idea.
Trying to approach someone - people sense desperate people. Unfortunately, psychopaths, too.. Manipulators, bullies, sociopaths, exploiters, parasites, emotional vampires, users - they all seek out lonely people who are genuinely good and nice and kind and friendly and warm and open... and we end up in toxic relationships due to our urge to approach someone. I would be careful with that.
Social anxiety is part of complex trauma. It is not shyness. IT is a shield that protects us from psychopaths that injured us in the past or currently. We developed social anxiety as a way to deal with psychopaths and expectations from society and from imposed social norms that are unrealistic and thwarted (that in the same time we must be confident yet follow strict social norms of talking slowly, being perfect and never expressing our emotions or feelings).
I realized this transactions are rooted in me, too ingrained. As soon as I realized Complex trauma and thus external validaiton concept, it was like snapping out of hypnosis. And now I am shocked as this people pleasing is ingrained in my behaviour at such incredible zoom and detail that is overwhelming and shocking.
For example,
I find myself at supermarket when I need to put my product on the track, without realizing it, I press myself as close to the counter, and usually another person comes behind me and they start to put their products - even though I am not finished and I have a lot of products - so they take my space and I am dis-accommodated by myself. I self sabotage my space and rights automatically. I was sincerely shocked when I realized I was doing this ever since I started to shop. And now I need to remind myself to put stuff at the end of track - thus another person will not take my space that I need.
"We take responsibility for making people feel better"
Yep. That is why I give up my space. I want other people, total strangers to feel good at my expense. I do not want to bother other people. I can't stand their criticism or expression of negative emotions if it is related to me. And I am aware that whatever I do or not do - it is double binding - other people will nag and criticize no matter what. Especially if they are toxic.
It is the result of trauma. It is being exposed to mentally ill early in childhood, when child brain is unable to process adult hysteria and constant criticism 24/7 about anything, in age when mistakes are natural part of learning. IT is ingrained programming, virus inside that is now part of our genetic code. IT is also social norms that are actually set standard in order to keep down psychopaths and violent people without empathy.
No one in their right mind would smile to someone who is abusing them or accuse them of something untrue and totally false. Being pushover is trauma. Not choice. And people pleasing cannot be changed at a press of the button.
"Watch, shoes, gluttony" That is not people pleasing. I think you are confusing herd mentality, groupthink with people pleasing. People pleasing in psychology means fawning. Fawn is one of 4 responses to trauma. People pleasing is serious psychological issue, it is being hypnotized into cognitive distortions. IT has nothing to do with being arrogant or toxic. IT is the result of being influenced by arrogant and toxic people early on when individual is hapless.
"End time, we are slowly approaching that time"
I think it is not so slow any more.
I see it like Shakespeare said: "Be just and fear not".
IF I have no ill will to anyone, if I am kind person, if I never want to hurt or exploit anyone, I don't have to worry too much additionally about anything.
People pleasers are dishonest and lie because there is urge to please other people. It is idea to make other people pleasant. It is urge to make other people's live comfortable, nice experience at own expense. People pleasing is actually not talking at all. It is self-censorship and mutism. It is shutting up when someone accuses me of something untrue, false, fake and totally lie. And in return instead of talking back the defense - people pleaser will smile back and take the barrage of assault and hysteria.
People pleasing is fear of conflict. It is trying to avoid criticism and cognitive dissonance of other person. People pleasing is fear from mocking. People pleasing is belief that other people are gods and their words are ultimate truth and personal command.
"Exaggeration - adding story to make it bigger, adding fiction"
People pleasers do not do that. They have low self esteem and low confidence. Talking like that would bring spotlight and this is what people pleasers avoid. You are describing narcissist.
"False humility - playing down compliments"
This is not false modesty, people pleaser honestly think that what they do does not matter and other people are competent. While whatever people pleaser do himself is wrong by default. It is toxic shame internalized.
"Chameleon Effect - changing personality to suit audience"
I think you are describing here Borderliners. People pleasers do not want audience. Audience means focus and criticism and this is something that pushovers can't handle. IT is too much.
"False politeness"
Again, you are describing manipulators. They appear charming and have agenda to exploit others.
People pleasers serve and obey others. They are honestly polite , they mean it as real desire to evade someone negative emotions, attack, rudeness and any anger emotions such as temper tantrums- all related to trauma.
"Pretend agreement"
This is due to codependency. People pleaser see other people as competent and gods, so there is no agreement. It is that other person is right by default. Deep down when people pleaser disagree is not lie, it is actually healthy part that wants to come out. Due to external referencing and trauma bonding, others are perceived as correct, normal, standard - so they are always right from this perspective.
"Pretend interest"
Again, people pleasing want to avoid hurting other people honestly and genuinely. IT is like being beaten up and now you are like conditioned circus animal, programmed to perform tricks for your master. There is no pretend interest. There is agenda imposed by mentally ill people who exploit people pleasers.
"Lie of omission"
Significant thought and you don't say it - it is not lie. It is fear from other people reaction. This is mutism. It is self-censorship. It is true belief that other people are gods, that whatever they say is ultimate truth.
"If you strongly disagree with boss but you don't share your thoughts, that is lieing" This is logical fallacy. It is the same as if you said that Women are guilty for not voting before 1800 because they did not protest. We now know that women were so brutally maltreated, I learned this in book about Shakespeare:
"Punishments in the 16th century for being thought “shrewish” (promiscuous) were brutal.
Women could be forced to wear a horrific metal device called a scold’s bridle."
People pleasing is acute and chronic fear of other people reaction. Unfortunately you see people pleasing from the angle of lies which is horrible exaggeration. It is actually repetition of trauma. Trauma is abandonment. We were abandoned in childhood by our caretakers. We were denied of our feelings and probably mocked or belittle about them. Labeling people pleasing as lying is this mocking being repeated, we abandon ourselves once again.
Labeling people pleasing as lying will not help, it is detrimental idea.
Since people pleasing is trauma, trauma can be healed only by compassion and love and understanding.
Telling it is a lie is far from that love.
Socially anxious person feels fine if one feels secure with people around them. This is called psychological security:
"Psychological security is a state in which a person perceives that his/her environment is safe and free from harm and threat (Maslow, Hirsh,)"
Social anxiety is fear from criticism. When you know 100% that no one will critize you, you will not feel social anxiety. Therefore it is possible to be in public and not being anxious. Public is not issue. Social anxiety is mental problem. It comes down to not trusting yourself and thinking that you are sick because you feel scared, while society is normal.
Social anxiety is part of trauma. Complex Trauma. Complex Trauma needs fixing, not social anxiety. Social anxiety will fix itself up once the complex trauma is healed.
Since many conditions overlap with social anxiety - it just may be that you had a mild case of shyness?
No matter what, it is great that is works for you, and I encourage you to keep on doing it, don't listen to anyone if it is truly beneficial to you and you have no hidden and detrimental side-effects.
I myself have been battling with social anxiety since 1989. I have been studying it since 1996, I really went through all the angles and corners and dimensions, and I've been listening to other people who battle with it.
There are overlapping conditions that are similar to social anxiety. If something is wrong with mental stability, withdrawal and isolation are typical response to this instability and many symptoms appear as social anxiety.
Social anxiety cannot be cured. It is permanent condition.
It is normal to feel scared around people because people are chaotic and not predictable. Our prejudgements and stigma around fears and emotions is the only problem here.
Look what you wrote, you said:
". The more you go out and realize that you can be yourself, and even if someone doesn't approve of you "
Being socially anxious is being yourself. IT is natural and normal reaction to abnormal situations and abnormal people. If you try to reduce it, you are cutting away parts of yourself, it is similar to performing plastic surgery because you believe your image is not beautiful and does not fit in to societal norms and constructs and standards.
What happens with socially anxious person when they go out there and face their fears - is that social anxiety is still ingrained inside, and it will fester with time. This is because social anxiety is learned wrong response to stimuli - it will turn itself into people pleasing, codependency, fawning, being pushover and being exploited by toxic people.
I like this quote:
"If social anxiety is normal, then it will never go away, whatever you do. So rather than attempting the impossible, and seeking a 'cure', energy is better spent learning how to reduce its painful aspects and consequences so that is no longer causes distress and interferes with your life.
People who are socially anxious, often talk as if they were in danger of 'doing it wrong' - as if they had a notion of an ideal way to behave.
"Overcoming social anxiety and shyness", Gillian Butler"
You said:
"You'd want to do the opposite (with social calibration of course)."
This is critical point. What is our goal with social anxiety? What do we want actually?
People with social anxiety are battling on more than one front. It is battle on many fronts. I actually made a video called "Social Anxiety Map". It is like we are trapped in multi-dimensional labyrinth.
Yes, we do not want to be people pleasers. But guess what - you cannot change fawning at the press of the button. IT comes with realization about Complex Trauma, the condition that is hovering above Social anxiety.
Complex trauma tells us that there is a concept called External referencing locus of control - where we put our self worth in other people hands and we trauma bond with others. Now with that concept I can start to recognize when I give up my personal space to accommodate others. Without knowledge of this concept, I would be pushover automatically, almost as if under hypnosis.
I learned that what comes down to is:
1) being active
2) being optimist.
That is the "cure" for social anxiety.
Social anxiety is normal reaction. If I face hysterical, violent, rude person I will feel anxiety. That is totally normal reaction to abnormal person. IF I try to correct myself - I am creating disorder, I am abandoning my feelings (this is the repetition of trauma). And I am not addressing the real problem - other people. In real life, this means I would stay with toxic person. Similar to the movie The Incident (1967) or Clockwork Orange (1971) where at the end of movie hooligan is brainwashed into being passive that he is unable to run away or defend himself against rude people.
I am still in experimental stage, but many of these things I said are tested from many sides.
Talking through comments here on You tube helps me a lot to get feedback by the world audience.
Social anxiety is tricky. I believe once we crack the Social Anxiety code we will have Rosetta Stone to read hieroglyphs of our subconsciousness but also being able to make it possible to read other disorders since social anxiety is linked to other disorders as I said, through isolation and withdrawal. As Jung said, "Until we make unconscious to be conscious it will lead and direct our lives and we will call it fate".
As I said Complex trauma is culprit. We are governed by injury, wound inside us, our hormones and chemicals inside drug us and influence our thought process. There is also amygdala hijacking - where our body is definitely working against ourselves and we are not aware of it. It is like having devil on our shoulder that appears as angel and convince us to make decisions that are actually self-sabotage. Our overthinking and trying to understand by adding our solutions only make things worse, since we give up the trust to our gut, our super-ego inside.
I see it as battle of good and evil inside us.
But as Shakespeare said Be just, and fear not.
This body-mind thing is actually explored in the past by Descartes and Voltaire, too. Of course, they used the language contemporary of their time period.
"Man was born to live either in the convulsions of misery, or in the lethargy of boredom."
Candide, Voltaire
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And as children we have no information nor mental capacity to process it - so we ignore it.. and since we do nothing about it, trauma grows, and trauma itself goes through Metamorphosis.
It rules and directs our lives, it influences our decisions without us being aware of it through triggers and emotional dysregulation.
If we have anxieties and social fears as adults, it is a clear sign that trauma is stuck inside our body. We do not allow it to shake it off, because we feel embarrassed by it or we rationalize it as nothing important, that we are not important, that our feelings and emotions are not important so - we abandon ourselves, as we experienced it in our childhood the same process of abandonment, not having self compassion, love and care by our environment.
We can think of trauma as virus that roams freely in our body, without body being able to recognize virus as dangerous entity.
And in the same time we have allergies over non important and non dangerous things that only seem similar to original trauma where we act with panic over small things or people that later turn out to be nothing important to make fuss about.
I spent 30+ years focusing on social anxiety symptoms that lead me to nowhere. I made more progress in the past year after I realized it is trauma actually all the time that is broadcasting anxiety and fears and panic attacks.
It is hard to find people like you. I try to communicate this concepts and most often people have very hard time to understand it - even though I use basic English language to describe it, without using specific, narrow definitions that require further education to grasp.
"Beliefs are like skeletons in the closet waiting for the right opportunity to present itself when we fall into unconscious reactivity despite our mindful presence"
Whoa. I see this as quantum physics - reality becomes solid when we observe it, otherwise it is uncertain. I think social anxiety is being stuck in monitoring phase, so due to fears and anxiety, socially anxious person is stuck in this uncertainty. We never speak out, our opinions and biases are never challenged and they create fantasy world that may lead to panic attacks, and allergy - over-reacting to unknown people and unknown events that appear scary but they are not scary at all in reality. Withdrawing and isolation helps us to calm down and keep toxic people away - but in the same time it prevents us from solidifying our presumptions, rules, conclusions - and we are stuck in floating in space, trying to grasp anything in hand once we are forced to face our fears. For me, this lead me to develop fawning as a way to cope with people in accordance to my personality of non aggression and being nice. Not speaking up and withholding my defense, is that my skeleton stays in the closet. As I understand this is inability to speak up is done due to brain injury, chemicals and hormones that are making me immobile and stuck - whereas this stuckness is illness itself. Being healthy is being active, expressing ourselves.
"in order to fit in i have to act and behave in certain way."
From my perspective, I would add to this sentence that people who went trauma (being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 in childhood and being exposed to adult hysteria when child brain is unable to process it other than internalizing it as toxic shame) I think it is important to realize some of our beliefs will be skewed and distorted by implanted beliefs from mentally ill person that abused us in our early, developmental years. For example, if my core personality is being open, friendly, warm and diplomatic - I might experience being made fun and mocked of being sissy, weak and now some of my beliefs might include over-compensating to appear "strong" by perhaps deciding to never wearing pink shirts. Or if I was criticized about what I wear, do, act, think - I might end up disliking wearing accessories. So I might end up with cold in the winter since I refuse to wear a hat, because someone might mock it. Another serious implication might be that I am so scared of other people commenting me that I decide not to look left and right when crossing the road because someone might mock me for it. I actually went through this when I was 12, 13. When I got pimples due to allergy reaction to penicillin, until I was 16 I was scared to death to take of shirt in summer. In my head, I was convinced this is the way to fit in - I must be perfect, without mistakes in order to please other people and that I do not bother them in any way, including doing something stupid that will make them uncomfortable or react in emotional way!
I realize even now as adult that certain social anxiety fears that are not so simple as in examples I said, have stuck with me even into adulthood and I need to pluck them out. For example - being in supermarket and when I put my stuff on the track but I move close to the counter, so another person comes by and start putting their stuff since I made them convenient for them to be in hurry and that they take away my space, so that they do not bother with waiting for me. And I end up without enough space for all my stuff. I did this automatically until a week or two - it never occurred to me what I was doing, I done it as if under hypnosis.
Or another example - driving a car, if someone tailgates me, I do not want them to be bothered by me, so I used to pull over and waste me time so that they can pass me by, or I would hit on the gas, over-exceeding travel limit - risking being fined, so in order that driver behind was not dis-convenient by me obeying the traffic rules, while they are nervous and want to drive fast. I put other people on pedestal in certain ways that I was not aware I was doing it. I do it even at the expense of my own safety or causing additional possible damage to others. It is like other person's opinion is so strong that nothing else in the world exists, other than other people and their comfort, that they feel good, that other people must feel good and it is my duty to obey and serve them even at the point of destroying myself. I think that is the core belief at the core of social anxiety.
With complex trauma information I learned this is called fawning, external referencing, external validation, trauma bonding. I find this fawning reaction as a very painful part of social anxiety that gives me a lot of pain and in the same time it is extremely limiting, self imposed restriction that I choke my life with.
And shockingly enough, I never learned fawning concept from social anxiety official resources - CBT focus only on symptoms, totally ignoring the central problem with social anxiety itself - fawning and trauma response that influence my decisions in detrimental way.
"I could never change that belief"
This is the problem. I am not aware I have belief. This unawareness of existence of certain unhelpful beliefs is huge problem. I made huge progress when I learned about fawning, since I was able to observe myself in social situations and now I was able to see that I have formed beliefs inside that are based on distortion. Before it appeared to me as normal life, normal everyday occurrence. And as I said, social anxiety official resources are not addressing this, they talk about assertiveness and self esteem - but again - these are only symptoms and mechanical actions. They do not tackle the motor inside that is like trying to move with handbrake on. I would read advice that I need to stand up for myself - but anytime I would try to do this I would either feel rush of panic attack or I would feel extremely guilty for voicing my thoughts, and usually other person would ashame me, mock me or gaslight me that I am over-sensitive, and thus silenced me. What I was missing was the concept that there is no absolute truth (Socrates), that no one hold ultimate truth, that people as human beings will never be able to grasp the total truth (Einstein said that) - I simply observed other people as better than me and whatever they said I never doubted.
"challenge deep rooted beliefs that are causing me anguish"
I think recognizing them is huge problem. As I said I have been reading social anxiety resources, so many books about them, so many articles - I never ever read in any of them about CPTSD. It would be a great relief to learn about Polyvagal theory, about fawning, about dysregulation, about brain injury, about hormones and chemicals that are released by my brain and body in times when I want to talk and speak out - that fears I feel are not my fault - it is that I am conditioned like a circus animal to feel fear when I want to assert myself. For some unknown reason these information are kept away from people with social anxiety. Pavlov conditioning is not new concept, it was discovered almost 100 years ago. So I would say lack of the right information is huge obstacle in recognizing deep rooted beliefs.
"difficulty adapting to new circumstances"
I discovered this concept as vagueness. I see it as Sandra Bullock in movie Gravity (2014) when she wants to grasp objects floating in the space. In the same way socially anxious person will resort to fawning and people pleasing in social situations - interview for a job, party with unknown people, conflict and confrontation - socially anxious person will try to calm down anxiety and vagueness by clinging on to people - seeing them as gods. That is trauma bonding, so my beliefs will be focused on people pleasing, seeing anything that other person say as true, as ultimate truth, and I must obey anything they say, I am not allowed to even think to doubt them, and I must never speak back to them - because they are objects I cling onto while I am floating in the space. Another analogy is Lorenz imprinting that he discovered almost 100 years ago - when he noticed little ducks are following him and his yellow boots, mistaken boots as their mother. Again, I am shocked that these concepts are not explained neither in social anxiety official resources, nor in self help books that cover subject as Nice guy syndrome. I don't know why? For me, when I realized these, it helped me to detach myself from others more easily, I had inner courage to trust myself. Without this information I would still believe others 100%.
"What belief is operating here?"
I did this self-investigation 20 years ago. I got to the root of my belief (one self help book about self esteem showed me the way, I think it was method to ask myself 'what does this means to me' over and over again) - and I realized that my core belief is: "I care what other people think about me". So I was aware this was the core issue. I knew that I am dependent on other people what they think about me. However - this did not help me to stop believing in it. I lacked information about Complex Trauma all the time. Information that I got was that symptoms of social anxiety are problem and I must solve them - by breathing, meditation etc. In fact looking back, this core belief only solidify my people pleasing and fawning issues since I had not idea that 1) other people are not superior so other people are not gods 2) that there is dualism - there is always different angles and truth 3) that I can trust my super-ego (I didn't know what super-ego is) that I can trust my decisions and experience 4) that I am allowed to make mistake and that it is not realistic to be perfect 5) that I have knowledge inside what to tell when I defend myself, it is inside me. I always thought that I am not able to defend myself, that I must learn complicated verbal abuse defense methods.
I never realized that I have silent voice inside me, flashes of truths and guidelines - I blocked it. When someone would accuse me of something untrue, I would shut up even though it would come up to my mind what I need to say back. I was convinced that conflict is equal to drama and explosions, and if other person is yelling that this is proof that they are gods, better and experienced, while in the same time I believed that their hysteria is proof I am inept - so I must shut up and be quiet always in order to prevent other people's potential discomfort.
I read so many books about social anxiety, self esteem and being nice guy - and no one explained it in this way. So I never was given instruction to challenge my wrong and totally distorted beliefs. As I said, even the discovery of the core belief (other people opinion is important to me ) - in fact paradoxically only deepened the inferiority complex.
I see it as a veil over my face, and people try to tell me that I should see the world in HD.. But no one told me I have a veil over my eyes, distorting my reality.
"investigate"
Once I knew that I care what other people think - I simply stayed stuck with it. And this realization even solidify people pleasing and being pushover since I did not know information about trauma bonding and external referencing. I had no idea that I was putting my self worth in other people hands.
So for me, information about complex trauma (CPTSD) was breakthrough in dealing with social anxiety - and I found out about it only after I listened to my instinct inside. Something inside told me to read a DK book about general health. And there was a small text about PTSD where they explained how one event may cause triggers later on in life. This small part of information lead me in the right direction, whereas I was blind before. I did investigate psychology texts before, but it was general information ,it was not narrowed down to what was actually bugging me. I read Psychology and philosophy books that helped be get pre-knowledge and concepts and quotes that were helpful however information about PTSD was spot on. I heard about PTSD and triggers before but I never connected it to social anxiety since PTSD is related to soldiers or victims of horrible crimes. So it never occurred to me that there is also Complex trauma concept, hidden behind the scene.
Also, since 2016 I weekly go though you tube videos about topics that interest me - ranging from people pleasing to seeking approval from other people - so this also gave me data to prepare me. Investigation as a way of education and learning is amazing, however I think if we do not narrow it down to the right direction, we might miss our final destination.
What strikes me that even though I spent 5 years listening to weekly videos about people pleasing - none of them talked about Trauma. None of them mention external referencing locus of control. None of them said that toxic shame is hallucination. So I feel like I am pioneer here. That is why I find it terrific to find videos such as yours, you are rare. People in general have no idea about this, and I think society in such regard is sick. We can conclude that people in general have hidden beliefs that are toxic and straying them away from the light.
What I learned in my case is to listen my voice inside, instinct, intuition.
I learned thanks to psychology books that this is Super-ego, it is inside us, collection of our gathered knowledge that gives us tips what to do, or if there is dysregulation, it appears to us as inner critic.
So once again, I would note that official medical resources are lacking information about trauma - and thus they lead people in wrong direction, people with social anxiety are never told to investigate the appropriate dimensions.
I did not understand how could I accept some things that I label as extremely bad... until I watched the movie Incident (1967), which has a very similar message as A Clockwork Orange (1971) - where I had realization that when I suppress bad and label it as bad - that paradoxically I cut off my branch where I sit without realizing it - I am making myself passive and unable to react to hysterical and violent people.
And yeah, I was aware of resentment being a seed of mental distortions. For some reason we think if we throw off resentment that it means being passive and not doing anything about things that bother us, as if it means giving up, or staying in toxic relationship. We can reject resentment and still do the right thing that may be painful or perceived as painful by others.
This is fascinating topic to me.
From my perspective - this is very tricky. :D
If you accept and chill about someone accusing you of something untrue, then 1) this person will continue bullying you, they will interpret your silence as green light to keep on bullying and 2) you will end up with their punishment you did not deserve since you are innocent.
For example I got pop up notification from Twitter that I broke their policy because I used word "die" in out of context reference. They offered me an option to accept it or deny the claim. I wanted to be chill about it and accept it because I knew I did not threaten anyone and I did not want to waste my time bothering about it. I was thinking it will vanish. But it didn't. I ended up suspended.
Then I thought what if I live in a corrupt state where someone accused me of something insignificant - and I accept their claims just to get rid of them - I might end up in jail for confessing other things that they did not tell me about - but I accept it as true. This chill and accepting can be tricky and dangerous.
Also from trauma perspective, not being able to react, you are creating Moral injury inside. And Complex Trauma is the result of kids being thrown in abusive situations where they had no other option but to accept it and move on, as if nothing happened. Later as adult, such kids have CPTDS, triggers and flashbacks and plethora of anxiety, panic attacks and cognitive distortions. You can check my video Social Anxiety Map - all the stuff that happens when you accept it, do nothing about it, ignore it and pretend to move on. Trauma gets stuck in your body even if you ignore it - it will fester.
However, if you react to unfair treatment, if you speak your mind, if you deal with situation instead of ignoring it - then you might feel embarrassment and guilt especially if you struggle with toxic shame (which is hallucination, illusion).
Well in this case - at this point where we did react to unfair treatment - I would enter Amor Fati concept, accepting it and moving on.
Hitler came to power the same as all other mentally ill people - because of herd mentality, groupthink - people accepted what is happening and they made decision that someone else will deal with it, and no one had guts to stand against him in public. I think Amor Fati in this case is toxic, Amor Fati makes sense when we have done all that we can do. When we did not self-censor ourselves. Only then Amor Fati is making sense and it is beneficial.
To make it more complex, intelligent people or people with trauma might get triggered and bothered by even smallest thing - since there is so much stupidity, unfairness and errors around - that we need some kind of filter to know what things are important.
And as it is said in video, accepting it does not mean not doing certain actions that will benefit us or help us - if we can do them. Accepting it does not mean being passive and doing nothing.
We can reject resentment and still do actions or speak the truth that other people may interpret as resentment in their eyes.
We can accept bad things - but still do actions and speak up that something is bad from our opinion.
That is the point. That is the game. How we deal with vagueness and can we make up our own rules based on society rules and finding the middle way: Long spoon allegory.
Perhaps, instead of "video Game" we can look at life as laboratory.
Since evil can hide itself and camouflage itself, whereas the next or previous life is devoid of evil as our final destination, it makes sense if we check how evil works, what is suffering and why people suffer, what is the root cause.
I found that evil must exist as a way to do anything in life. Evil is intertwined with activity and personality. So that is the test: Will I follow external reference, herd mentality and commit Milgram Experiment? Or will I follow my own imaginary fantasies, fears and anxiety and enter schizophrenia and violence based on paranoia? OR... will I realize that it is the best way to trust my own gut but in the same time to be opened to criticism and suggestions and outer world - not as guidance but as process where I discern what is good and right inside my mind, allowing my subconsciousness and my super-ego to decide what is good and what is wrong. Will I have courage to speak my truth or will I self-censor myself? Will I embrace my mistakes - my evil and wrongdoings and take accountability for them by at least saying I was wrong and I am sorry? Will I commit my life to exploring science, great philosophers and learning about Socrates and others..or will I waste my life by defaulting to the circumstances? Will I educate myself and learn concepts such as ego-centrism, or will I stay ego-centric my whole life?
Video game is test.
“The universe is an intelligence test.” ― Timothy Leary.
"They don't do anything."
As I understand Buddha rebelled against doing nothing and he founded the middle way as proper way. 'the eightfold path of Buddhism regarded as a golden mean between self-indulgence and self-mortification'
It is because of external referencing locus of control. External validation. Seeking approval from others. Putting self worth in other people's hands. Trauma bonding. Stockholm syndrome. Inferiority complex.
As kids we were told our opinions does not matter. Now it is programmed inside us that we don't trust our gut, our persona, our decisions, our common sense, experience - other people are competent, better. While our thoughts, opinions are invalid by default. I see toxic shame internalized here. And toxic shame is hallucination.
Complex trauma caused brain injury. This brain injury defaults my thinking to two patterns: 1) being stuck in intrusive worry and 2) being pessimist. So I can step out of the car and push it, since the car is spinning in one place, as if it is in the mud or on ice. Wheels are spinning, I am pushing the gas pedal, but the car is stuck. Step out of the car and giving it a push means relying on my common sense, logic, intuition, decisions, gathered knowledge, science facts such as this one, psychology data and quotes, philosophy, my super-ego, instinct, gut - to make me shift focus from intrusive thoughts onto a job, task, goals, dreams I need and want to do, it is being aware I have small tasks and chores to do that I would not do them because I would be stuck with PureOCD thoughts. It is forgetting to take your keys when you leave the apartment because I would be thinking about what is going to happen outside.
Stepping out of the car also means being optimistic on force, since my brain will default to catastrophizing due to injury. So, I can't trust my brain. Anxiety is lying to me. Brain is lying to me. Brain tries to keep me safe by inventing new things to be afraid of - eventually turning into agoraphobia and mutism. Stepping out of the car also means speaking up whereas I would usually shut up and self-censor myself. I love how you use the words "step out of this" - I use expression "step out of the car and push it", I find it great analogy to explain myself what is going on.
"It comes from our knowledge what condition is."
This is the problem. Social anxiety official resources are focused on CBT physical symptoms. This is a huge mistake. Advice that is related to social anxiety is about calming down - but they totally miss information about trauma. I have been reading self help books since 1996 and medical articles and books about social anxiety, self esteem, assertiveness - and they all miss information about trauma. If I knew information about Complex Trauma - I would have knowledge that is related to social anxiety, I would learn helpful concepts that explain why I am behaving in avoidant way. Without these concepts I would explain myself that I am weird, different, broken, that I must calm down - since this is the main focus of official social anxiety resources. CBT only made me more scared, since its focus is on fear, I started to be aware of other things that I am afraid and whenever I would try to do exposure - now I would have panic attack since CBT and social anxiety resources tell me this is related to physical symptoms - as if I can change them at the press of the button. It would help that I knew concepts and knowledge about external referencing locus of control, amygdala hijacking, toxic shame that it is illusion and hallucination (Bradshaw's book only made me feeling worse since it did not tell this specifically that way), ego-centrism, trauma bonding, intrinsic values and motivation, paradox of knowledge (that there is no absolute truth - I would look at other people as gods and givers of orders, based on them carrying the absolute truth about anything in life - whereas I am inferior and inept), PureOCD intrusive thoughts (CBT label it wrongly as ANT automatic negative thoughts - they are not always negative - sometimes they appear as angels and positive), Descartes Evil Demon hypothesis taught me to doubt everyone and my own brain, Herd mentality and groupthink, Glasser's communication habits, logical fallacies, Polyvagal theory, emotional dysregulation, that our brain drug us by hormones and chemicals influencing our thoughts, fawning response to trauma, introjection, immature ego defense mechanism, cognitive distortions - as a way to control other people and events.
"You cannot wait for your pain to settle down before you start moving back to your life. "
Yep, I cannot wait for my brain to feel good enough, it will never be able due to brain injury, trauma programming, brain is pumping chemicals and hormones whenever I want to do something or stand up for myself. Therefore, brain will work against me. Stoics, Descartes and Voltaire discovered this long time ago - this body versus mind battle.
"we got to confront very things we fear. They are not dangerous. Truly threatening, it is all coming from your brain and nervous symptoms. "
From my experience, confronting and exposure is not the only way. From what I see in myself, it will lead to fawning, people pleasing and being pushover - if I am not aware of everything that I am scared of. This is the problem - being unaware of what is the real problem.
In my case, from social avoidance - my problem was external reference. I put my self worth in other people hands. That is why I feel whatever they feel - and I can't shake it off. This is why I find socializing difficult, I zoom into people too much, I soak up their feelings and it is a part of me. And I was not aware of this concept of external and intrinsic value. Why official social anxiety resources are not talking about this at all? I read Emotional Intelligence book by Goleman in 1997 - he never ever mentions Fawning response. He does not talk about Fight-Freeze response in terms of influencing our thoughts. This explanation would help me a lot if I heard it in that way to be explained to me. He talked about amygdala as if it is backstage prop - and it is actually Wizard of Oz main character actually. So pinpointing the right information is crucial. Without it, exposure creates an avoidance loop itself. At least that was my case. I thought when I got regular job that since I am now exposed to people that this means social anxiety is gone. And I ended up with new trauma and inability to stand up for myself, not knowing what is going on. I did not investigate social anxiety anymore in great detail- since I was convinced that exposure is the cure. It wasn't.
" negative thinking, leads to more pain, avoidance, hypervigilance"
Yep - that was to cause why Exposure ERP did not help me. Because negative thinking was projected onto me, since my inferiority complex made me observe and soak other people as my personal guide and I put my self worth in other people hands. So since my trauma CPTSD is at its core the result of being exposed to adult hysteria at the age where child brain is unable to process it other than internalize it as toxic shame, and being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 just about anything - it means that now as adult - criticism will hurt me. I will not be able to reject it or filter it - my external referencing will flood me with ongoing trauma - since I can't control other people from nagging and complaining and criticizing me.
So along with exposure, in my case it would help that someone explained me that 1) toxic shame is hallucination (belief that I am inept by default), 2) other people are actors and they wear mask, I cannot trust them absolutely whatever they say and I am free to doubt them and criticize them back 3) that there is no absolute truth and world is dualistic yin yang and anything can be observed from different angle that is valid in its own place 4) that shutting up, mutism, inactivity, seeing world black and white, and self censorship is mental illness 5) that if I throw labels at something, that in the same time I am limiting myself and creating myself a prison because my rules, obligations and perceptions are now tainted with ideology and have bars - whereas we never can know anything or anyone. 6) due to brain injury, my brain will always default to intrusive worry and immobility and pessimism - so it is my duty to rely on cognitive defusion and put trust and decision making process onto Super-ego, instead of trying to feel good enough and only then try to do something - which would never happen.
Knowing this information would my exposure make a positive experience.
Thanks for vid! You confirmed stuff I came up on my own.
As I understand my fears, anxiety and panic - we are actually not suppose to crack it. It is defense mechanism. It would be the same as if we said that having army is a bad thing because so many wars are unfair and started due to greed, not as a way to throw off tyrants.
In the same way, I see avoidance, hyper vigilance, guilt - all as a way that our mind adopts abnormal situations, abnormal people, abnormal events that are totally outside of our control - and then our mind tries to balance it with our own personality, our rules, obligations, conclusions, perks, quirks, caprices - so we end up in panic mode.
Having avoidance, guilt, hyper vigilance is not our fault. It is not our choice. It is unconscious reaction by our brain trying to make sense of outside, external distortion that has nothing to do with us. Having avoidance is indicative sign and signal that there is someone evil, mentally ill in our presence. Someone narcissistic, a manipulator, exploiter, user, abuser, emotional vampire, parasite - I call it external factor. It is camouflaged as a friend, caretaker, good person - and it always has honeymoon abuse cycle which keeps them in our midsts, we don''t reject it, we become codependent on it due ti their gaslighting and their destruction of our own defenses - our questioning and reasoning and trying to get to the truth - it will be met with criticism and personal attack. That we will respond as avoidance, since we are being brought up as kind and nice people, people who must be friendly, open and warm to everyone -
So we are healthy human beings experiencing external factor attacking us - and they convinced us through gaslighting that it is our fault. We are too sensitive. We are too something. It is our fault. We are trained and conditioned to be hyper vigilant - to expect the next blow and explosions out of nowhere. Normal and healthy people do not do these explosions. They do not treat other people as garbage. Normal and healthy people have empathy. They respect other people boundaries.
Our mind will always try to keep us safe - even at our own danger and paradoxically putting us into great danger in the future, due to butterfly effect - unseen cause and effect. So when we label ourselves as weird and shame ourselves from having avoidance, when we guilt trip ourselves - we are rejecting ourselves. Our brain is repeating the lesson learned in dysfunctional environment - that we must be strong, that we must never show our feelings, that we must never express ourselves, our brain is abandoning us, the same way we were traumatized in the past. It comes down to the lack of love.
So going along with idea that avoidance and hyper vigilance and guilt is something as our own problem, not related to external factor - is lack of love. We are repeating the abandonment cycle, we are traumatizing ourselves again - and our brain makes us think this is good. To our brain this decision seems ok since it was conditioned to think like that, like Pavlovian dogs we are conditioned into fear and toxic shame. We feel good, our brain makes us feel good that when we belittle ourselves and when we take the blame for something that we did not do.
If we think we are worthy and if we stand up to bullies and psychopaths, our brain will due to this Pavlovian conditioning - release chemicals and hormones that will influence our thoughts into submission, fear and guilt. And we will not be aware that this is happening and we will go along with it. To us, it will seem natural to feel guilty automatically. We will never to become aware that the uncomfortable feelings of guilt are chemical reaction programmed by narcissists in our early age, when we were helpless.
So logical conclusion is that we rely on our logic instead - since our brain is injured and it is lying to us all the time.
Logic would tell us - to be honest, authentic and speak the truth. Since we do not want ill wish to anyone - there is nothing to hide. We can speak the truth.
Also logic tell us to be objective and rely on facts. To be transparent,
this means to question ourselves and others. Instead of automatic submission and going along with other people words as if they are our personal commands - we can start communicating and employ Socratic method of questioning.
The truth is that there is no absolute truth, so whatever guilt we have - it can be rationalized and rejected when viewed from a certain angle.
I would add the external factor into the equation.
That is why I call it external.
I am talking about 1) our external referencing making other people into gods that we must obey listen automatically without questioning them
2) external factor - other people who are on purpose aggressive to others but they do not tell it explicitly - they cover it up so we are ended up confused and we doubt our sanity in the end. The end result is our being afraid, being stuck in abuse loop. Abuse loop has explosions - honeymoon period. External factors are manipulators, narcissists, exploiters, users, abusers, parasites, emotional vampires. They suck away our time, energy, money and sanity. They influence our fear loop cycle as well, not only the abuse loop. They are the cause of initial injury that started fear loop, they are at the top of this chart showing in thumbnail and video: Injury.
That injury leads to pain experience creating additional pain experience when we try to resolve the trauma in our mind by engaging into intrusive worry and pessimism.
Which leads me to discovery of my own - that avoidance and social anxiety is the result of not being able to confront and engage in quick conflict. So we are unable to 1) ward off negative people by our boundaries of common sense and 2) feel good about ourselves since we are unable to defend ourselves when we are accused of something untrue. Their punishment for something we didn't do is additional pain.
And our brain in this cycle is not our ally - it asserts itself on the side of enemy - not because it is traitor - but because brain itself is built that way - to protect itself by creating comfort. We are wired to find comfort zone, our brain is wired that way. And this is creating huge problem when problem is identified as things and people that are not dangerous.
Social anxiety and avoidance is actually allergy reaction of our brain.
So our task is to 1) increase tolerance to things and people to realize they are not dangerous as they appear in our biased perception that jumps to conclusions and 2) increase our defense to the real threat.
Because paradox is - that even through our brain is trying to protect us by avoiding anything and everyone - in the same time - when the real threat comes - it makes us passive. We can see this in the movie Incident with Martin Sheen from 1967. Or "A Clockwork Orange" from 1971 where former hooligan that is brainwashed to become nice and good person - probably by employing the came chart iconographic shown in this video - is now a person that is unable to defend himself against violent people.
That is distortion, our brain explanation and rules that we must be good and nice people, and our explanation what is bad and negative - that is creating the distortion. Our rules are faulty. We got to challenge our beliefs and also in the same time always challenge other people. Now, we are blind believers in one conclusion - and that is ego-centric, it keeps us stuck in child like perception of the world. The healthy and sane mindset is the one where we take all things in consideration.
Pail Watzlawick said: "The belief that one's own view or reality is the only reality is the most dangerous of all delusions"
We might think that if we reject our firm and solid beliefs, that we will be manipulated by others and forced into something we do not want. But this is exactly what is happening right now. When we always have a healthy dose of skepticism about anything and anyone - including ourselves, we are awake and it will be hard to be manipulated either by our own injured brain or by others who pretend to be our friends and helpers.
What I saw from my own experience , once I started to doubt anything - I actually was shocked how much manipulation is out there in the world. I never noticed it before.
For example, absolute negative people like Stalin and Hitler - I see them now as mentally ill people, they were driven by paranoia. Before I would see them as powerful evil people, Stalin even kicked people with this boots - but now I realize that violent and cruel and aggressive people over-compensate their hidden weakness and inferiority by acting cruel. I see them both now as a piece of crap. Whereas before, even though I saw them as absolute evil, paradoxically this belief in my eyes gave them a high place on a pedestal.
That is what is happening with bullies and difficult people in our life. We label them as difficult - but this label is working against ourselves, since we convince ourselves that battle with them is useless since they are so difficult and toxic. So I give up even before trying to communicate my opinions and truth. I saw off the branch where I sit and I make myself inferior . simply by my own beliefs of just world and my pontification.
So I would challenge beliefs, as it is said in this video. It is rabbit hole that goes much deeper, but to more fulfilling life than living on the surface level.
Yep. To hold onto facts, not subjectivity. To stick to experts and science, not advice from someone who is not. It is about being objective.
Following the gathered knowledge, and data from reliable resources.
That we invest time to gather information.
Our mind tricks us into explaining things and people as "toxic", "dangerous", "evil" - but do we spend any time in examining and exploring to exert scientific conclusions that our beliefs are true? I think not.
When faced with a bully - instead of hysterical reaction, unless they are physically violent, it would be a great help to document the abuse. Write down what they said -- and then objectively draw conclusions - am I Karen, am I over-reacting - or are they really dangerous and aggressive?
Some people are klutzes - they are socially inept and don't know how to communicate - if we warn them, they will come to their senses. But if we label them as difficult people, we will never even try to communicate with them - and they will interpret our silence as a green light to continue being jerks.
Oh yes.
I think this is because 1) our body - it produces hormones and chemicals that make it extremely hard to to something new and out of ordinary routine - especially when trauma is solidified by conditioning and
2) because there are other loops present.
Loops - abuse cycle loop where we have honeymoon phase with abuser that keeps us stuck in a loop. Victim loop - where we try to fix other people and they end up accusing us when things go wrong. Trauma loop - where we are in Polyvagal theory orbiting hypervigilance, hypo-vigilance and calmness and we are spin out of our atom orbit like a proton due to triggers and flashbacks. Inferiority complex loop - where we see other people as gods, and then we base our emotions on irregularities and caprices and whims of other people - instead of basing our self worth inside us where it belongs. Low confidence loop - where we try to over-compensate to appear strong whereas the exit from the loop would be that we accept not being confident - which paradoxically lead us to being confident.
There are god knows how many loops inside. It's no wonder it is excruciating.
But I see one common factor and one common theme that is related to all these loops - it is lack of love. Trying to over-compensate, implant something outside as quick solution and actually not taking care of ourselves, not listening to ourselves, jumping to quick conclusions instead of being with ourselves. We are keep abandoning ourselves and we are not friends with ourselves, there is no love. We act as we care - it is as if we are ugly, disgusting and we hate ourselves, we just can't accept ourselves. We are not allowing ourselves to be ourselves and we desperately try to cover us with anything that comes to our hands.
I would say toxic shame is culprit in all these loops.
Twist in the story is that toxic shame is hallucination, it is illusion that appears real to us.
We don't give ourselves the benefit of doubt, having inner critic is the repetition of trauma. We repeat the programming that we were conditioned into it, like Pavlovian dogs.
I see inner critic as result when we don't trust ourselves due to trauma, we put self worth in other people, external referencing locus of control. So inner critic tries to please other people and what other people might criticize, like or dislike, our critic is trying to sort own worth through the prism of other people - because we don't like ourselves, we don't trust ourselves, we see ourselves as inept while other people are experienced and better. Toxic shame is internalized inside us and we believe the hallucination that we are worthless. So of course - we evacuate our self worth in other people hands - as we were falsely taught in the childhood in our dysfunctional environment.
Our body is now trained to release chemicals and hormones whenever we try to assert ourselves, speak up and defend ourselves - because we were repeatedly punished in the early years when we try to be ourselves, when we expressed our feelings and thoughts and opinions.
Our amygdala gets hijacked, too - so we are unable to use brain other than focusing on panic and perceived danger and to people pleasing.
I myself got conditioned to fawn and introject, so it is hard for me to shake off other people's feelings, criticism and temper tantrum - I immediately think it is my fault and I never automatically think that the other person may be mentally ill or under drugs or something - I automatically see other person as sane, as authority and I follow their words as ultimate order - even when I am fully aware that they are not good people. It is hypnosis. We were traumatized, we need to give ourselves a break. It is not our fault. We need reparenting.
It's great that you talk about it, so many people are not aware of CPTSD.
For 30+years I was convinced that my issue was Social anxiety and avoidance. And I would focus on symptoms of panic attacks - which only lead to paralysis and more panic attacks, since I never learned concept of trauma bonding and fawning.
However, he failed to identify toxic shame as hallucination. If he used this word, it would help me to focus in better direction. After I read his book, actually I felt much worse, because he made aware I am bad, and it just tear off the protective layer that was hiding it - and in the same time he failed to describe toxic shame as illusion. His advice to deal and manage toxic shame is very hard and difficult, he wrote half of his book in getting rid of toxic shame - while it takes a few seconds: toxic shame is hallucination. It is powerful, it influences our decisions and it wraps around our beliefs twisting them and distorting our thoughts. And yes - it can lead to suicide idealizations - so it is very serious and important topic to talk about.
But it is all lie. We are not inept. We are hypnotized into believing we are worthless. That is a lie, we are not worthless. It is literally hallucination.
Toxic shame is a transparent veil over our face, we are looking at the world through the gaze. We do not see life clearly. We can take off the veil.
In my case, toxic shame was intertwined with external reference of control, where I put my self worth in other people hands - other people opinions appear as ultimate truth to me. What they say appears as order and command to me. I am talking about trauma bonding. Complex Trauma and toxic shame go hand in hand. Instead of external validation, I can bring back self worth where it belongs - to my intrinsic value inside me. I can express my opinion, it is valid. I can make mistake - we learn through mistakes. I do not wish ill will to anyone, my attentions are not to harm anyone, so as Shakespeare said : Be just and fear not.
Toxic shame is hallucination, we need to burst the bubble and start trusting ourselves, our mistakes and our intuition and our super-ego, collection of data, knowledge and experience that is inside us.
6 months later and I can confirm that complex trauma works magic for me. It is as if someone gave me puzzle pieced that I needed for my picture, there are a lot of them, but I am getting the picture finally.
With social anxiety information that is available from official resources, I couldn't even get the same pieces of puzzles to fit.
Regarding what you said about toxic - this is one piece of puzzle that I learned just a couple of days ago.
It seems that when we label people and events and situation as toxic or crap - even though it is true - in the same time we are limiting ourselves without being aware of it.
We put restrictions and rules how not to behave or what not to be - and this is constricting us - in the future.
I learned that everything is connected - even the toxic and crap of this world.
For example, let's look at the movie Incident from 1967. OR A Clockwork Orange from 1971. In both movies we have main character(s) that are in a situation where they are "attacked" by hooligans. And they are extremely passive and take the blows. They all have nice syndrome. They are angry and showing negative emotions among each other - but they do not use it in order to defend themselves or to assert their boundaries. In Clockwork Orange, the former hooligan is programmed into being nice, he is hypnotized into being obeying person that is not toxic and crap to his environment - and in the end he ends up violated by rude and aggressive people.
That is what happens when we judge, label and assert our goodness and niceness - we become passive, we put incredible high standards on ourselves that actually are choking us and ultimately working against ourselves. We end up afraid of making mistakes and trying to be perfect and that we do not embarrass ourselves in the public.
So.. in a funny cosmic way - even crap and toxic serves its purpose.
i think this is related to trauma - because our strict environment tried to instill in us goodness and niceness by rejecting parts of us that was labeled as annoying, stupid, mistake. And somehow we think that trauma means only verbal and emotional or physical abuse. I would say that pontificating, nagging and criticizing is also part of trauma - and it is a huge part.
So I would refrain from using labels as toxic and crap - and see it a a part of life.
The magic is that as Jung said with this dark shadow discovery - that the more we accept the rejected parts, the more tolerance we will have on things that scare us into immobility and passivity.
Not for all. Imagine how people for whom mediation does not help feel when they read your story. They think:
(a) I must mediate all the day, abandon my work and meditate till I drop
(b) there is something horrible wrong with me - so now I have additional stuff to worry about because meditation does not work for me
(c) For people who are afraid of social situations (which include any social situation - not once in a life time wedding - which can be easily evaded anyway) and they do find that meditation work at some certain level - now they need to become addicts to meditation, it becomes an OCD ritual
If you need to do certain ritual in order to perform something in life, that is called OCD. And it creates the loop of anxiety. From your perspective it doesn't feel like a loop. From your perspective it looks functional, however anxiety is still present, and it will fester if you don't tackle it at its core, which is Complex Trauma.
You said:
"Anxiety downed by 80+%"
It should be 100 percent gone. Just imagine what these 20 percent will fester into during long time. Also, did you made scientific survey or do you rely on your own perception to make statistics about the level of anxiety. Our subconscious mind is tricky, it can deceive us.
It is said that "Anxiety is lying to us".
Brain is wired to keep us safe, it will go through unimaginable lengths to keep us safe and in comfort zone. If we were triggered into feeling anxiety in social situations, our body will condition ourselves to not feel anxiety when we do not face fearful objects. Body will release chemicals and hormones to condition us to feel safe - in accordance what our brain is perceiving as safe. So if we were traumatized in our childhood, our understanding of safety is warped, and this needs to be examined. It can be done if you meditate. You will ignore the core wound that is broadcasting anxiety. In time it will get worse. Anxiety will not go away on its own. Our anxious brain will keep anxiety ongoing.
If you feel like you don't have anxiety anymore, well yeah - go ahead and do the meditation.
But I warn you to google "PureOCD" beforehand. Learn about anxiety, educate yourself about it before you venture into fixing yourself.
We as humans are not endowed with tools to fix ourselves. We will end up with immature ego defense mechanisms in order to try to fix our mental problems - and it will make things worse.
We need other people to help us with this.
We need external help from experts to guide us along.
I would say if you have 20% of anxiety - seek what it is. There is some distortion inside us. Anxiety is signal that there is something wrong, our thinking is crooked and it needs our attention.
It is about understanding the concept. Our brain is processing reality all the time, what brain is doing is practicing it.
We just need to get our brain on the right track.
Imagine a small tree growing into a big tree. If it is crooked as a small birch - it will grow into big crooked tree. Crooked trees are prone to go down if there is a big winds blowing, so we need our tree to be as it suppose to be - grown straight up. That's how our brain is working - it just needs a correction to grow straight.
Most of your video you are talking about other people - their reaction. You use words "everyone", "popular girl" "everybody" "50 people". This is a sign you are preoccupied with people, how many are there, you generalize them in "everybody".
You said "entire school found about it" and "he was getting people come up to him teasing him".
Well, in reality - it probably was not entire school. In reality - people who came up to him were probably 3 or 4 kids that are probably psychopaths and severely mentally ill without a drop of conscience or empathy. But you speak about those incredibly small amount of sick children as if they are "everybody" and "entire school".
That is external referencing. It's just not true that everybody is making fun of us. It appears like that in our minds because we have trauma bonding - we see other people as gods. That is locus of control placed in external world. We place our self worth in other people hands. That's why this concept is connected to confidence.
You said:
"experiencing shit, reach point of acceptance"
I would re-phrase it - into point of acceptance who I am, and the point of acceptance is accepting myself in entirety, with good and bad sides. While in the same time my worth is not depended on what other people think, say or act. I cut the invisible bond that I make automatically with the other people. They just don't matter. I can listen to them, but I can doubt everything they say. Without this concept we can be manipulated very easily by others. Some people appear as friends to us, but in fact they only collect data so they would gossip behind our back - or worse, they gather data from us about us in order to harm us later on - through mocking or exploitation.
It seems to me you never heard about Descartes Evil Demon hypothesis. Check it out. Descartes taught this in 17th century European royals, he went from court to court and people were amazed about this discovery. He was actually talking about this concept.
Descartes Evil demon hypothesis:
"In the evil demon argument Descartes proposes an entity who is capable of deceiving us to such a degree that we have reason to doubt the totality of what our senses tell us."
He is saying that we doubt everyone and everything, including our own perceptions and conclusions and beliefs - because they might be fake and deceiving us for some hidden agenda.
Once you understand this hypothesis, it is like a veil is removed from our eyes and we can see the reality more clearly.
Therefore, in example you were talking about, I would discern kids who were laughing at him as spoiled brats, who probably had some physical deficiencies themselves but they projected their stuff onto this kid. Also you might realize that kids that were mocking him were not so large, instead of 50 of them, it was probably 5 of them who were really enjoying in torturing other kid, wile 45 of them are sheep who are afraid of what other people would think of them - so they joined in mocking just to please other people. 45 of them had external referencing locus of control. And that what's make it dangerous.
Groupthink and herd mentality can lead to Milgram experiment.
We put other person or groups at pedestal and we adjust our reactions based on other people. That is very dangerous - since we allow other people to manipulate us.
Also, we adjust our own feelings to match other people - so if someone is angry or have temper tantrum, we adjust our own feelings to match other people - and we can't shake it off. So our mental health is dependent on other people.
So how you "practice" it - is doubt everything. Descartes was famous for the saying "I think, therefore I am". He was telling us how to practice removing external referencing - and for some unknown reason, we did not receive the message. Since we are childish, ego-centric. It feels fine when we are taken care of and when other people take responsibility and when we can say "it is somebody else's problem". But as I said, this childish thinking is not functional. It will turn us into people pleasers and pushovers and seeking validation from other people - which will never come, since it is not other people's job to like us. It's ours.
"If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." - Descartes.
'A fuller form, dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum ("I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am”), aptly captures Descartes’ intent.'
" It's a bit too rational/cold/logical for me"
That is why I said there there is no practice about this concept. There is no step-by step instruction. You apply it in accordance to your own personality and persona. If you start to doubt everything, you will see that you will have easier time to spot liars and fake people and manipulators. I think certain groups of people exploit our human need for connection and being open and honest - and they use it against ourselves.
It is like - you are open and warm person, so you think other people are too - but they are not. Some people just appear warm and open in order to exploit others. And since we are not manipulators ourselves, it is impossible to spot them, since we do not have reference point to recognize evil and demented people if they act nice, kind and cooperative most of the time. It is like our body not having ability to recognize virus, so we let toxins inside us.
Once we are able to doubt our own rules and perceptions, we can doubt other people without automatically trusting them - we can filter the good and bad.
Without having our self worth based on our own values, we are like a boat in an ocean - thrown here and there, at the whim of nature and external forces, and this appears normal and standard way of traveling - while it can lead to crash.
You are talking about manipulators who act kind and good and nice, and appear cooperative but they have hidden agenda.
People who are giving mixed messages - that they do stuff for you, and you open up to them and you think you are safe...only to realize you get a portion of abuse along the way, their drama, imagined conflicts, their rules imposed on the other person. These people are as I learned, called Borderliners - they are very close to narcissists but they still have retained empathy with just enough capacity to manipulate others with it. So we are ended up with a person that appears to be our "friend" and someone trustworthy - but something is wrong and you can't pinpoint what is wrong.
And that is what you are talking about in this video - how to recognize fake manipulative exploitative people who appear friendly towards us.
Yeah, these people are tricky and it is important to learn about how they operate. IT is best to cut contact with them.
It took me 3 years after I cut contact with her to realize that these people have Borderline Personality Disorder. They exhibit high people pleasing traits - while in the same time they have explicit dark side and they use it to ashame people who are close to them, giving mixed messages and you are unable to discern if they are toxic, and you end up questioning your own sanity, because they use gaslighting a lot.
This person told me out right she like to make drama and conflict and she expects that other people yell and scream at her - that she respect that in other people when they want to fight with her. Also she was talking about times she got so much angry that she literally spit in other person's face or that she had such temper tantrums that she exploded and she could not remember what happened. In the same time she talked about her childhood abuse and she talks in sweet and soft way most of the time, so you think you are dealing with highly sensitive person, so you feel sorry for her - and that is what these types of people do, they illicit empathy and sympathy for them. In that way Borderliners are worse than Narcissists, because Borderliners use empathy to control and ashame others, while narcissists are not acting, you notice someone being psychopaths right away, so it is easier to stay away from narcissists.
Also I noticed that narcissists too use empathy - in the court, when they are brought to trials for their crimes, they come in the courtroom with crutches. We could see this scenario in recent past with millionaires or celebrities after they finally were caught for rape etc.
Problem starts with intelligent people who are noticing idiocy all the time. IF you start to stand up for what intelligent people think it is right - it will drive that person mad. :D
Just imagine what would we do if we do not have capacity to ignore and tolerate bad drivers? We would end up exploding - there are so many bad drivers out there, especially in poor and corrupt countries, where traffic police does not do its job and where people do not obey the rules, they create their own rules.
"ask what you want"
PRoblem starts when you are in an environment where 80 percent of people are narcissists and lazy and psychopaths. This means - you can't ask for what you want unless you are able to stand temper tantrums, screaming and yelling and finally - being refused since they are lazy and they never do what they don't want to do. Your Maslow needs get trampled because you live in a toxic environment where your needs are frowned upon as irrelevant.
"say no in positive calm respectful way"
This can be a problem for people who are having Complex trauma, suffering from External referencing locus of control (seeing other people as gods), ingrained brain injury defaulting to intrusive worry and pessimism and internalized toxic shame. This all means - you are unable to say no, since your body produces waves of chemicals and hormones that result in having panic attack symptoms whenever you want to stand up for yourself. From this aspect, assertiveness information does not help - it leads to anxiety and fears and produces social anxiety, since it does not explain what to do when you have these issues inside you.
""Progressively work in assertiveness in higher stake situations."
Again, this will not work in toxic environment. If the country where you live is corrupt, you will be in position to negative selection - where people with connections get all the break. And your pleads, labour and general positive attitude is ignored as invalid - by the system itself. In corrupt environment, you are not human being, you are object to be exploited by others and your thoughts, opinions, experience and communication does not matter to the corrupt system. In such circumstances, assertiveness does not help, it only makes you spinning the hamster wheel.
"Being straightforward and truthful"
Assertiveness does not explain what happens when the person you want to be straightforward and truthful: a) does not listen to you and b) turn their back and walk away - so you have no one to be straightforward to in the first place :D
"be firm but respectful"
How does that work if the other person is throwing temper tantrums and Ad Hominems?
"to those you are attempting to interact with"
What to do when those who you are attempting to interact with do not interact with you? So they do not listen to you or observe your body language at all?
"If you want something, ask for it. If something worries you, speak up. When making request or preference, be confident and be assured."
a) there are manipulators out there that gaslight others - so they lead the conversation in different route - without the target being aware of it at all
b) people who went through trauma, and paradoxically , those people are the only one who need to learn assertiveness - have their body working against themselves. This means, the body will produce stress chemicals and hormones, panic symptoms whenever they try to speak up. Why is this body working against ourselves phenomena always ignored by assertiveness information advice line? This is not something that is modern science, it was explored by Votaire in the past and mind body concept was explored by Descartes in 17th century. And for some unknown reason it is totally ignored by today modern advice givers.
"Understand and tolerate other views. Do not let other views annoy you or make you angry."
Try? This is not try method. This is ego-centrism. It is not something you try - it is either you understand it or not. Ego-centrism is the last stage of growing up, it was discovered by Piaget and Vygotski. It means growing up - and since so many people are kids trapped in grown man's body this is very important concept. And for some unknown reason, it is not called by its name, so people are unable to google it: Ego centrism. It is as if there is a conspiracy to keep people being trapped on purpose in low IQ and mental instability. Ego centrism gives us ability to see everything from multiple angles and dimensions, similar to the novel Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions is a satirical novella by the English schoolmaster Edwin Abbott Abbott, first published in 1884. Growing out of ego-centrism literally raises our IQ and it makes us have more empathy. But in the same time, we realize that some of our requests and needs are selfish and unnecessary.
"Difference in the opinion does not always mean you are right and other person is wrong."
Again, another concept that is masked and not clearly explained. This is Paradox of knowledge and it was first discovered by Socrates. It tells us that there is no absolute truth out there. And since the world is dualistic, anything has two sides. Which means, if I want something, and other person refuse it - this does not mean that they are correct - so I should not shut up just because they think something is true in their head. Without this knowledge I could easily turn into people pleaser and being pushover - since other people will have their truth forged in their head. Without the awareness that there is no absolute truth, I may convince myself that I must depend on other people to provide me with truth. And then I will never be assertive. So this concept is important to explain it in more detail.
"Speak clearly"
Also difference in opinion does not mean that I can explain my truth through explosions and drama. I can state what I need calmly even though other person may be angry. Since I know there is no absolute truth - this means that other person emotions may not be true and should not be observed as normal, standard or something I should base my own emotions or thoughts upon at all.
"Use I statements"
This means exposing vulnerabilities. It means that other person will have inferiority complex especially when they compensate it by being aggressive and rude - so such mentally ill people think you are god but they do not say it out loud. Therefore to counteract against psychopaths, we can state our mistakes and imperfections and vulnerabilities and own them. Otherwise they will use it to toxically ashame us into submission and self-censorship.
"Establish boundaries - what you will accept from other people"
a) in today's world it is unfortunately normal to scream and yell, especially in poor and undeveloped countries - so if you do not accept vulgarities and temper tantrums - you are left to be isolated and jobless and homeless - because you can't accept other people as abnormal and monsters.
b) establishing boundaries does not actually mean to speak at all. The focus is not on telling other people by controlling them. I don't know why but this information is always ignored by advice line givers: establishing boundaries mean having non verbal attitude, it has nothing to with expressing it through talk, talking comes only after as its side-effect. Thus, forcing ourselves to defend our boundaries through talking and speaking up will come out wrong. For example, people who were traumatized will feel guilt after doing the right thing - speaking their boundaries. So the guilt is the problem here. It should be explored from where this guilt is coming from. Usually it comes from trying to be good and nice, and labeling other people as toxic and bad - so we feel bad when we deny something - since we are hypnotized through trauma that saying no is rude.
"Assertiveness needs a lot of practice"
Nah, it just needs correct definitions and concepts. It is like having spotlight in the dark room to shine where it suppose to be.
As I learned about CPTSD these chemicals are inside us that control our thoughts, beliefs, perceptions, standpoints and courage:
Oxytocin. Dopamine. Cortisol, Adrenaline, Norepinephrine. Serotonin. (Serotonin is a hormone that regulates mood).
These chemicals make traumatized people hyper-vigilant, they run around the body and influence our thoughts by observing potential threats in our environment, real or imagined all the time.
So if I need to do speak up against some injustice, the body will release cortisol and I will feel panic. This is how trauma conditioned us to feel scared when we want to express ourselves and speak the truth or stand up for myself. If I do speak up, I will feel extreme guilt and embarrassment - because again, chemicals inside my body running wild, but in my mind it will appear as triggers and flashbacks - and I will believe those fears - and shut up. I will not be aware that chemicals inside me are running my brain - this is called amygdala hijacking or emotional hijacking. Our logic and common sense is hijacked by our own body fluids, hormones.
We were conditioned like Pavlovian dogs into this hijacking. Our environment wanted the best for us though - parents, teachers, neighbours - they all wanted us to be nice and good people who are not violent. But the problem is that we were already nice and kind and good people to begin with. We did not need special training. We got extreme measures that work against ourselves. It is like these conditioned punishments in our childhood were meant for extreme hooligans, not for us. We got their share of discipline and torture and punishment. And now we are messed up.
Similar to the movie "A Clockwork Orange" by Stanley Kubrick from 1971, where former hooligan is so conditioned into being a civilized person - that at the end of movie he is unable to defend himself. He is conditioned to remain calm and nice and peaceful when rude people exploit, mock, violate and manipulate him.
Or the movie Incident from 1967 where passengers stay quiet and passive when hooligans are attacking them. The passengers express emotions and anger between people they know from before, but they are unable to defend themselves against unknown thugs. They just remain passive and immobile. The passengers are not cowards - they are conditioned by society and parents and everyone to be nice, good, smiling, civilized people - but this being nice person and good citizen does not work when we encounter manipulative monsters, narcissists, exploiters, users, abusers, parasites, emotional vampires. I think this may be the reason why people got "revolutionized" in 1969, they realized that they were conditioned into being subservient, obedient, kind slaves, while they had government that was mafia and exploiting them into money wars.
Also, in the same way, if I choose to shut up and self-censor myself my body will release serotonin and I will calm down. So my body is conditioned to be passive, inert and pushover, people pleaser.
It is not my choice. It appears as my choice because these chemicals are influencing my thoughts. That's what makes it so hard - our own body is drugging us into passivity and being scared. But to us it appears as the world has to be this way, since we never were exposed to alternative.
The alternative would be that I can speak my mind - without explosions and without drama and without conflict and screaming and yelling. That is what we didn't get in childhood - ability to be frank and honest but in the same time to express my angry emotions and uncomfortable feelings without hysteria. It was like black and white - either be nice and quiet or be angry but loud - and when we spoke up or express our emotions in childhood - we ended up being punished by screaming, hitting, belittling. We were raised by people who have no idea how to raise kids.
So it is our own beliefs now. Trauma is stuck in our body and in it is stuck our perceptions - how we explain our reality. I see the way out out of this trauma loop by becoming skeptic - to doubt everything, as Descartes discovered in 17th century. He said that we will start to think only when we start to doubt anything and everyone, including our own firm beliefs.
For some unknown reason, media picked on Descartes partial quote: I think, therefore I am. And we all heard this one, but this is false quote. This quote means just because I have ability to think that makes me human. Well, animals have ability to think, too. The difference in becoming human is doubting:
'A fuller form, dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum ("I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am”), aptly captures Descartes’ intent.'
I realized when we start to allow ourselves to doubt other people (their intentions even when they appear friendly and helpful) and to doubt ourselves (our thoughts that feel comforting - for example to watch porn all the time) - is the path to sanity and mental stability. We will be able to catch other people when they lie, and we will be able to catch our own beliefs when they are unrealistic.
For example, I realized that when I label something bad, toxic - that in the same time paradoxically I shoot my own foot, because I don't allow myself to be bad and toxic. And in certain situations I need to be bad and toxic. Not always. In some rare situations - for example when someone ask me to do something I do not want, and they insist - the only way to push them back is to become something I do not like in other people. Me personally I hate hysteria and yelling and screaming - so I ended up as quiet guy who never yells, even when someone accuse me of something I never did, something that is not true. I smile back to them and I shut up. And this self-censorship is backed up by chemicals inside, hormones that prevent me from reacting naturally.
I notices in rare situations where I did stand up to people - that they usually reacted surprised and they backed off, and some of them gaslight me that I am over-sensitive, that I am imagining stuff. Now I know this is their reaction to not admit they were wrong and stepped out of boundaries of unwritten social etiquette. People who cross boundaries are usually people who were raised in spoiled families, where they were allowed to do anything. So now as adults they think they can treat other people whatever way they like. The only defense against those people is us being frank and honest and transparent to them. Pointing out what they did wrong - because they are blind in seeing they are rude. It is the opposite from nice people who are blind in seeing anything else but rude.
To make it more complex, since CPTSD is complex trauma - my mind is not totally under the influence of chemicals and pushover beliefs. There is part of my brain that is healthy and that wants to scream and speak up. So trauma handles this part too, by creating allergy and over-reactions - so if in rare cases I do speak up against injustice I will feel over-reaction and I might over-react.
So the only way is - that I realize it's ok to be all the bad things I convinced myself is bad and toxic - but in the same time I can express my opposing opinion and standpoint without hysteria. I do not need to match anger if other person is hostile. And - if I do, then that it is ok, that making mistakes is ok too.
That's what trauma is all about - being unable to express ourselves. We are conditioned to feel guilty if we show ourselves our true colors and to feel bad if we shut up - whatever we do, we feel like inept and wrong by default. Trauma comes down to lack of love.
Oh, I see now, you are describing the other type of codependency. It is people pleasing that stems from controlling people. My people pleasing and codependency stems from trauma of being punished and triggered that I am inept as human being so I must serve other people.
I engage in fixing other people so that they do not get angry at me - so that I do not feel or hear or experience their negative emotions. My people pleasing stems from the fear of potential punishment. This fear is based on belief that other people are better in anything and that they hold the ultimate truth, while I am inept and unable to live life. So I must be subservient to superior others. The first type of codependents don't have internalized toxic shame.
"Codependent is enabling their disease to continue, we enable disease to flourish."
Both types end up with the same result, yeah - it is about serving and obeying people who in our eyes appear as god, but they are sick and probably mentally ill.
Yep, external referencing locus of control. Where I see other people as gods and I place my self worth in other people. Then I end up feeling their emotions, their temper tantrums feel internalized and painful and I can't shake it off, I trauma bonded with them. It is every time I think I have to do something, react to them based on them, their opinion, their actions, their reactions, rather than my own self worth and my own values, intrinsic locus of control.
I am afraid to cut contact because they gaslight me into thinking that there is suppose to be hate and conflict and screaming and drama, as you said in the video - it doesn't. That is not healthy.
I think codependents also have issues with cutting contacts because of inability to meet Maslow basic needs, so it seems as the only option that is easier to shut up and self-censor and stay in toxic environment in order to fulfill Maslow needs (finances, shelter, security).
Also, people who do not stand up for themselves - it is not a choice. The hormones and chemicals inside our body make the person scared, amygdala gets hijacked, emotional hijacking - and there is no cortex that will guide logic, there is only panic attacks.
As a psychologist, he suppose to know this, and he suppose to explain what to do when you have body drugging you into submission and subservient behaviour.
But since he is a quack, he will only give general shortsighted biased view, filled with shortcuts and over-generalizations that in the end help no one, only his bank account.
Paradox is - that people who are able to confront and engage in conflict - will not look at this video. They do not need advice in this particular area of life. So his advice is BS, it is actually detrimental, since it not only give help to people who seek the solution, they also takes the crap on people's head and gives them toxic shame for not standing up for themselves.
This man is dangerous.
I saw this in movie Incident from 1967, where passengers are bullied by hooligans in the subway train. None of them have the courage to stand up to bullies, not because they are cowards or without emotions (we see them expressing negative and angry emotions between each other) - they are simply conditioned into being kind, nice and good citizens who do not meddle into other people business and who do not display negative emotions in public. So when aggressive person is present, there is no way to stand up to such person, there are no inner demons to fight demons - and people are left with immobility, passivity, being frozen.
I see this as allergy, over-reacting issue. Where I am triggered - but some things and events and people are not dangerous neither aggressive, but in my mind they appear very dangerous and intrusive. I learned it is good to curb my enthusiasm and collect data. Zoroastrianism tells us when we are confused - to do nothing. I would just wait and try to collect as much information I can - who is this person, what is happening, am I over-reacting? BTW Zoroastrianism helped me to discover the concept of speaking up, being frank, honest and genuine, to stop pattern of shutting up and self-censorship, so in this way it resonates with CPTSD and people who self-censor themselves into mutism.
Complex part is - that when we do speak up - narcissists and borderliners will gashlight us - they will tell us that we are over-sensitive and that we are imagining stuff - which is of course a lie. So related issue is external referencing locus of control which I learned thanks to CPTSD - where I need to put my self worth inside me, to bring decisions based on my values not to reactions, actions, opinions of the other person.
"Each time I speak up end up in confrontation"
Yeah, this is very confusing part for trauma sufferers - we think that speaking up is equal to drama, hysteria and explosions, this is what happened in our childhood, that's how we were programmed and hypnotized into submission and subservience and self-censorship, that we do not and where we are not allowed to express our emotions nor thoughts nor opinions.
Also, one side effect is that when we do speak up - we feel guilty. We did nothing wrong! We did not hurt anyone. We do not want to hurt anyone. We have no ill will towards anyone, yet we end up with embarrassment and guilt and shame for speaking up. I would ignore this guilt. IT is implanted, this toxic shame is not real, it is hallucination and should be observed as such.
Yep, it is trauma bonding, Stockholm Syndrome, external reference locus of control. Inferiority complex caused by internalized toxic shaming where I believe I am inept, while all other people are better and their every word is my command I must obey.
For me, it helped me to realize there is no absolute truth, so no one is correct, no one can be correct, since the Universe is dualistic itself, and people are prone to biases and logical fallacies, jumping to conclusions - so I need my self worth being brought to myself, trusting my common sense, logic, intuition, instinct, gathered knowledge from videos such as this one where I bring my own opinions and conclusions based on my own values, not on other people to per-emptively please them so that they do not criticize me or hurt me. Once I understand that my brain is lying to me, it manipulate my moods through hormones and chemicals, I can start to question both my conclusions and rules and also other people as well, when they give us mixed messages. Instead of automatic smile and yes - man attitude, I can start to doubt they might have agenda that is not going to save me at all, as I believe that others people will.
It is not necessarily physical abuse. Not knowing this fact, I ignored trauma information related to social anxiety for decades. There is also other facets of abuse. Criticism 24/7 and being exposed to adult hysteria that child's brain is unable to process other than forming immature ego defense mechanisms. But I learned it is not only abuse - it is abandonment also: lack of love. And it is over-protective messages.
"warning sign, boundary crossed"
This starts to be problem with highly sensitive people - feel it as stronger rate as you said, but it is also a problem for intelligent people - since there are so many errors and unfairness and fake and wrong messages, actions, opinions in the world. So person will numb to these and ask oneself when to react?
"make fun of you, ask to stop, leave conversation"
Person with codependency issues will have hard time saying anything or leaving. Telling them to leave does nothing. They need to hear that codependency is form of addiction, there is a cycle called Karpman drama triangle.
"speak your mind, you might get feeling of guilt, you look sad look in their face"
"Not treating other people like victim"
That is great advice. It is the core of people pleasing, seeing other people as someone who needs help and to fix them. I like this, not treating other people like victim.
But I have problem with this - it is called Ebbinghaus Forgetting curve, which tells us that instructions we learn - we will start to forget them in 24 hours onward it will get worse.
So I would deal with inner trauma, so that we check trauma which is distorting our thoughts suck as seeing other people as victims. Where and what is creating this distorted view of society - I would check it out. That would help better than keep reminding myself about this fact. There is something wrong and distorted to treat people like a victim. I think it is because we are repeating how we treat ourselves - we treat others, too. What I learned from my experience, the problem are my convictions and explanations and rules - which are too restrictive and whenever I label something toxic and bad - I actually shoot my own foot and become more prone to over-reactions and allergy inside my mind, being unable to tolerate things that are not dangerous or violent. That builds up to resentment, too.
I would also connect this to external reference locus of control - where I base my opinions, values based on other people instead of my own worth and my own values.
---
Based on social anxiety. Social anxiety flourished in 1970s.
Philip Zimbardo said: "I started studying shyness in adults in 1972. Shyness operates at so many different levels. Out of that research came the Stanford shyness clinic in 1977".
This happened because during 1960s traditional social unwritten rules got broken - and people no longer had things to hold on tight when they feel ambiguity. This is the source of social anxiety - not knowing what to do in social situations.
This phenomena was noted in the book from 1979 "Overcoming Shyness, Meeting People is Fun" written by Phyllis M. Shaw. She noted:
"As society is becoming more free, it is also becoming harder for the individual to assess what is considered acceptable behaviour in certain group. 50 years ago it was much easier to recognize people by their clothing or by their speech because the society had more hierarchical structure than it is today."
"You post a lot of misinformation."
I share the gathered information and knowledge with people. I spent 30 years collecting this information - why on Earth would I throw it away or censor it? Especially for individuals who are trying to get well - and prevent them to waste 30 years in collecting information I can give in 5 seconds? You seem hostile and triggered. And toxic. And selfish.
"Stop telling her what to do"
You are one of those people who are jealous of others for knowing more than you do, so you bully easy targets because you are narcissist. The focus in not in your direction so you feel threatened by my knowledge. You are sick.
I am not telling anyone what they should do. It is her life, let her make decisions on her own.
I can share my information, she can google it and check it out if she wants to. I am not forcing anyone to do anything.
I am always commenting here on you tube for people who are interested in well being and growth, and being positive and keep on going, being hopeful.
You on the other hand is embodiment of crab mentality. You do not want to be healthy, you want other people to stay with you in the dark, so you pull other people down.
Stop it!
It is similar to movie Indicent from 1967 or A Clockwork Orange from 1971 - where main characters are unable to move and react to dangerous people around them due to social constrictions and social constructions imposed by society to be nice, kind and good. It is like we were exposed to instructions that were meant for hooligans and psychopaths - the instructions that should force sociopath kids into society and being civil. We received wrong messages in our childhood. Also trauma meant that we were abandoned, and we were been told by our toxic environment that our opinions our persona our inner core being is invalid and that we are wrong by default. It comes down to lack of love and abandoning ourselves as human being.
"Cause can be a trigger. Certain social situations. "
Not completely true. Social anxiety is not connected exclusively to social situations. It is connected to situations where you might encounter social situations - it is fear of criticism. It can happen in your head - imagining the possible future threat, but also imagining past threats - called post mortem worry. This is why it was renamed from social phobia - since mere exposure to social situations do not make you de-sensitized. In fact, it can make things even worse.
"Social skills are underdeveloped."
This is myth. Social anxiety people have high levels of social skills, in fact they are so high, that is flew off the scale, it is too extreme.
"You don't know how to deal with social situations, it gives you more anxiety".
Nope. Social anxiety people do not know how to deal with specific aspects of social encounters: quick conflict, nagging, criticism, quick defense, voicing out the elephant in the room, dealing with angry and hostile people.
"Social skills underdeveloped"
This is detrimental advice - it says that social anxiety people must correct something that is already programmed and forced from the childhood into the extreme - being a nice, good, friendly and open, so you are hypnotized into not expressing your own opinion. This has nothing to do with skills at all.
Let's look ordinary folks who do not suffer from social anxiety - they are morons. They have absolutely no skills whatsoever. They are rude, klutzes, insensitive - and they suffer from no anxiety at all.
"Skill set to deal with socialization isn't there."
Yes it is there. It is hidden under the surface, like water on Mars. It is self-censored and shut up, as programmed in childhood by dysfunctional environment that messed up with our expression of ourselves.
"Cause is higher baseline of anxiety"
Cause is Complex Trauma, emotional dysregulation, amygdala hijacking, emotional hijacking, toxic shaming, toxic shame now as hallucination, external reference locus of control, trauma bonding, Polyvagal Theory, brain injury due to narcissistic abuse, hormones & chemicals, ego-centrism, trauma response, illusion of control, fallacy of change cognitive distortion, immature ego defense mechanisms, introjection, external validation, cognitive biases, logical fallacies, cognitive fusion, fawn response.
"faster spikes of anxiety in certain situations"
This is normal response to abnormal situations and abnormal people. Talking about anxiety as spike and something that is weird and unwanted will paradoxically only bring more anxiety: analysis leads to paralysis. Anxiety is the tip of the iceberg that we see. There is trauma underneath that is a lot bigger and it is controlling this anxiety to spike into chaos.
"Make a list of situations that are in the most anxiety provoking for you."
I did that in 1998. I ended up with spike of anxiety that I never had ever before. It didn't help me at all - it made things worse. It was because now when I made fear list I was aware that: 1) There is something weird about me 2) There are scary situations out there 3) If I need to make a list of life and normal living situations, it means I cannot control myself 4) I ended up with fawning and being pushover and people pleaser - because I focused on fears, fearful situations and scary people - rendering me useless. This is external reference locus of control and it is a very bad advice. Intrinsic locus of control tells me that if I make any list - it must be from me, within me, by me, accepting and listening myself first. When I make a monster out of external world - I make it my master and it controls me.
"Make a plan to develop social skills to become better at those situations."
I ended up with nervous, aggressive and violent people that no one can become better with - the only solution is to get away from them.
"Chat with the cashier"
Being open to other people is really bad advice. Socially anxious people do not have boundaries at all and that makes them perfect target to attract narcissists, exploiters, manipulators, users, abusers, emotional vampires. Paradoxically SAD and avoidance folks need more closure, stop being open to people, building walls and boundaries to protect your soul which is exposed and that attracts toxic people like moth to a flame. SAD people do not have low social skills - their skills are already brushed to perfection and these skills are attracting bad people. SAD people need filter to ward off the scum away from them, not being open to everyone.
Also, cashier is very busy person - they have limited amount of time to do their work, it is very ego-centric of us to stall them and take their time in order to sooth our anxiety. If our anxiety is compelling us to do certain rituals - this is road to OCD.
"Breathing"
Symptoms are not problem - our attitude and perception and explanations are. Making it demand that we must be something is road to anxiety and OCD. What happens when I can't calm down? I will feel anxiety for not being calmed down.
"Random acts of kindness"
Social anxious people are extremely kind and nice and good people. Otherwise they would be narcissists and borderliners (loving drama, screaming, blaming others, being aggressive and rude)
"Brain training"
I see it like brain injury fact - that narcissism in childhood years (being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria - child brain being unable to resolve and process it other than internalizing toxic shame) caused brain injury and now our thoughts default to two basic patterns: 1) being stuck in intrusive worry and 2) being pessimist.
Knowing brain injury will always be there and always default my thinking into immobility and passivity - my job is to make cognitive defusion, focus off from my brain my shifting my focus on action and being optimist on force. Doing work deliberately shifting focus on chores that I would otherwise forget them due to intrusive PureOCD worries.
wiki:
"Mazes and Monsters" (1982) movie was based on:
Mazes and Monsters is a 1981 novel by Rona Jaffe. The novel is a cautionary tale regarding the then-new hobby of fantasy role-playing games. The book was adapted into a made-for-television movie by the same name in 1982 starring Tom Hanks.
Like the contemporary Hobgoblin, this is a species of social problem novel (although not aimed at young adult readers), by an established writer, which treats the playing of role-playing games as indicative of deep neurotic needs. In both books, the protagonist is (or at least appears to be) suffering from schizophrenia (or some analogous condition); in both books, the attainment of mature adulthood is accompanied by the abandonment of role-playing games.
wikipedia
Instead of Dungeons & Dragons "slaying social anxiety" I would rather try instead Twitter and You tube comments section. Social anxiety is fear from criticism and inability to react to rude and aggressive people. Writing out our opinions will force us to express ourselves and see how other people react to our thoughts - without the danger of physical attack in the safety of our comfort zone.
"Write it down, challenge it. What are realistic outcomes."
I like that. This is good thing to look back during Post mortem - process when we go over and over what happened. Usually when nothing happens, brain will not focus and it will label it as fluke.
Our brain is constructed that way to keep us safe. So I would be careful with rituals that "ward off" catastrophizing - because it can lead to PureOCD issues.
As Mark Freeman said in his videos about OCD, in video called "How to Deal With Intrusive Thoughts":
"You don't have to chase every stick your brain throws at you."
Because, the problem is when we notice catastrophizing itself - the brain is notified that there is danger - so brain will try to protect us by imagining more of it - in order to keep it safe. The result may be agoraphobia.
So as brain injury is telling us to be immobile - we need to rely on our common sense instead - since our brain is lying to us. Our anxiety is lying to us - it produce scary visions from the past and imaginary future - brain is build that way. Especially with brain injury, it will default to catastrophizing. Cognitive defusion is the only way - that means not fighting intrusive worry, yet to focus on task at hand and our dreams, chores that we have to do anyway - but we would forget them if we were focused on catastrophic thoughts.
What I learned people pleasing and being pushover is not about people pleasing at all. It is not about saying Yes. Nor being unable to say No.
It is about
1) external referencing - seeing other people as gods and introjection - taking their emotions as own, as learned in traumatic childhood
2) being unable to be honest, to speak my opinion. Simply stating the facts and being objective, being transparent.
IT seems so easy and carefree to "speak the truth" - but it is really explosive act. To speak the truth - there will always be stupid people who are not educated, or stubborn people or manipulative people who are hurt by the truth and us voicing out the elephant in the room.
That's what Master is talking about at 4:00
"Live best to ourselves. As long as our intent is pure, we live in honesty, we are honest to people around us about who we truly are and what we truly want, it is not selfish, it is selfless. I do this for me."
Shakespeare said in his way the same thing: 'Be just and fear not.'
I love this:
"If other people have opinion, that is their reaction. If you are doing something good, with good intent, with love and compassion and people still reacting towards it, then surely that is for them to handle, inner work they need to figure out and that is only way for them to learn. Not you by trying to protecting them. Allowing them to problem arise. Through challenges they will begin to see they need to change themselves within"
If other people have opinion, that is their reaction. If you are doing something good, with good intent, with love and compassion and people still reacting towards it, then surely that is for them to handle, inner work they need to figure out and that is only way for them to learn.
Shyness is when you feel embarrassed by other people in unknown settings with unknown people. As soon as you start to talk with them - the fear will be gone since nothing bad will happen. You will not think about it before the event and certainly you will not think twice after it.
Social anxiety is internalized toxic shame. You are embarrassed by being you, you see yourself as inept and wrong by default and you try to cover it from the other people. You feel embarrassed by imaginary and real people around you, by people in the past and potential people you may encounter. Fear will stay present even if you talk to the people. This is why social phobia was renamed into social anxiety - since it is not phobia. Phobia wears off with exposure to feared object. Also, social anxiety makes you think about social event long before the event, during the event and after the event (called Post mortem). Social anxiety is trapped trauma inside your body but it appears as shyness on the surface. You are not aware you have intrusive thoughts, they appear normal - since this is what you grew up with since childhood. You start to be aware of social anxiety once you realize your defense mechanism of avoidance and isolation makes you harder and more difficult to handle panic symptoms.
Shyness comes and go - and it is not related to intrusive worry at all, there is nothing programmed inside you to fear people.
Both shyness and social anxiety are perfectly normal reaction to abnormal situations and abnormal people.
For shyness - you never had traumatic events from the past ingrained in your psyche, while for SAD traumatic event in ingrained in your brain as brain injury and now you thoughts default to intrusive worry and pessimism/catastrophizing motored by internalized toxic shame.
Schizoids do not like people and do not want friendships at all and they don't perceive isolation as anything wrong at all.
Avoidants are people pleasers, they are afraid to speak their opinion and like to conform, not because of herd mentality - they are propelled by the fear of disappointing other people.
Schizoids may be very expressive and opinionated and they don't care what people think of them since they do not perceive cooperation and interdependence as anything to be valued.
Hmm..
schizoids and avoidants should pair up to exchange their thoughts.
"Psychological abuse growing up.." - that is the way to handle it. CBT only focus on symptoms, but totally ignores the Complex Trauma.
For me, finding out it was Complex Trauma hovering above social anxiety and avoidance - is that really helped me to make steps in the right direction.
Avoidants have what is called external referencing - seeing other people as gods and believe anything other people say, while toxic shame prevents having the trust in self worth and any trust in their core being.
To me, it seems you have no problems in that area at all. You are not afraid to express yourself and be whatever your inner values tell you it is correct, as long as it doesn't hurt other people. If you are inconsiderate to other people - as you say, you fart around them, that is not avoidance. Avoidants desire close relationships, mostly due to being unable to be happy with themselves so they seek guidance in other people. Even the introverted ones. So what you talked about seems to me it is more like you being Schizoid. It all belongs in the same cluster.
Avoidance is the choice our brain makes to protect us from danger that combines our personality of non violence and desire for friendship. It is normal reaction to abnormal people and abnormal events, trauma.
So yeah, a lot of people will find something common in anything that you see or read of experience in other people. No matter what is the topic.
I would see bringing back self worth where it belongs - to myself, which would mean to trust my decisions, including my mistakes. Intrinsic value and motivation I think is the key to calm down the inner critic, and what I am left is toxic shame - which I can reject as seeing it as it is: an hallucination, byproduct of complex trauma, being exposed to dysfunctional environment when growing up (relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria).
I would say people who push "weak" people are sick, abnormal. Normal people who are healthy in the head do not push "weak" people, they help them.
"Gain more courage"
I think the more correct path would be to gain more self worth. This means starting to filter out people who are sick and people who are healthy.
"Assertively"
It is a matter of perspective. Assertive does not mean attacking others neither it is treating with respect - this comes as by-product but it is not the primary motor.
"Speaking up for yourself"
This is hard for people with trauma, people who are pushovers by definitions. It is not a matter of choice. It is programmed belief in dysfunctional environment in childhood.
"Whenever you say that is not ok and you mean it"
This is a very thin line to becoming hysterical. Problem is as you said:
"When someone says something you dislike, you can say I don't appreciate this"
1) there are manipulative people out there that are masters in conflict and deflection, also manipulative people like borderliners appear as friends and help but they exploit and control other people - so you can't say anything - it's better option to recognize abusers and cut contact
2) What is definition of what I dislike - what if I am super intelligent : anything and everyone in life will annoy me - so I could as well end up as very nervous and neurotic, since anything and everything is wrong, there is so many errors and mistakes around, that you need to learn to tolerate it which can be challenging - what is the boundary? I see dehumanizing others that crosses that line
3) Sometimes we are wrong, there is cognitive dissonance - that we perceive as danger things, events and people that are not at all dangerous - if I reject and react to it, it is a road to either fight response or isolation and withdrawal, avoidance.
4) People who are fawning as response to trauma due to Complex Trauma issues, their own body produces hormones and chemicals inside that make the target feel panic attack when they need to stand up for themselves: increased heart beat rate, sweating, catastrophizing, trembling, shaking voice - very uncomfortable symptoms due to childhood programming from dysfunctional environment where they grew up. They need regulation to regulate their amygdala and emotional hijacking - so it is not about speaking up as primary goal - it is about regulation (Polyvagal Theory). Once we are regulated, in calm state - we can act normally without allergy over-reaction to our environment.
This all is complex, but
I see easy solution - just being honest, genuine and authentic. As Zoroastrians told us in their religion.
We can voice out the elephant in the room without drama and conflict and without yelling and screaming.
Speaking the truth seems like easy and stupid and non-effective but in reality, speaking the truth is very explosive, controversial and people are triggered by the truth - especially toxic people who have hidden agenda and people who project their deficiencies onto easy targets: nice, friendly, open and calm people who appear as pushovers to them, since they value civil behaviour. Voicing out the elephant in the room is anti-dote to narcissists. Narcissists don't like transparency. Cutting contact is also option that nice and kind people will not notice as alternative due to childhood programming of trying to please other people.
Also, documenting the abuse is something that gives us time and space to analyze whether we are over-reacting or is there a real ongoing abuse. Kind and nice people will always see others as they see themselves - and it is therefore hard to believe that there are people out there that are unkind and violent and disturbed and sick.
Toxic shame inside us tells us that we are inept and wrong and unimportant by default.
Therefore, we got to realize that being nice and good and kind is a weapon:
It means we have no ill will, no hidden agenda against other people. As Shakespeare said: Be just and fear not.
When we do not wish harm to anyone, this gives us power to stand up for ourselves. We were exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when we grew up - and now we don't believe in ourselves.
This abandonment of our self worth is driving force of being pushover - so being assertive and trying to speak up will not work. The act of speaking up and being assertive comes naturally when we tackle the trauma inside and when we realize we export our self worth into other people hands. It is when we realize we can trust ourselves, our perceptions, our values, our mistakes - then asserting becomes natural.
I have made myself a list of topics that I watch on weekly basis on you tube. Your video came up when I searched for "people pleaser" search subject, hehe.
"Learning to detect evil intentions is indeed crucial is we don't want to be taken advantage "
Yeah, there is political and philosophical term called "machiavellianism" - and these people have hidden agenda to manipulate and control people to gain some personal goal. In ideal world, these goals would be for the benefit of people, but in real life, usually these are actually Nixons and narcissists, as you said, evil people.
What I learned - these evil manipulative people will not usually present themselves as evil at all.
In fact, they may employ tactics that make them appear as "people pleaser".
This is where it gets complex.
We can divide people in two types of people pleasers - 1) those who learned it in childhood, so there is some kind of trauma forcing them to fawn and 2) those who use people pleasing as a tool to manipulate others. For example, we all have seen criminals appearing with crutches in the court, when they are caught in their crimes. They have crutches in order to illicit sympathy. We can see a perfect example when we Google images for "weinstein crutches".
So this is actually very important topic, but many people do not talk about it, they do not analyze it, so it is great that you talk about it!
This topic needs to be explored from many aspects, the rabbit hole is very deep for this topic,
and I think once explored, it will both help people to have better quality lives - by understanding own behaviour and recognizing toxic people out there that appear to us as friends and helpful but are actually very evil, Machiavellianists - so that we can recognize them and confront or even better - cut contact with them.
It is propelled by toxic shame and external reference locus of control.
Toxic shame tells us that we are inept and unworthy, while external reference tells us that other people are gods and whatever other people say is ultimate truth and their opinion is our personal command and order.
Motivation and talk to people is great way to get feedback, but for people with inferiority complex, the trauma makes our thinking to fawn over to other people. I would remove it by removing toxic shame (realizing it is hallucination) and putting back self worth at my own mind - which means relying on my own knowledge, experience and gathered information. Other people can give their opinions - but it comes down to being prepared to conflict and confrontation with people who do not share their knowledge to help - but they use their knowledge as a way to ashame others and control and manipulate others.
I would go in that way, rather than trying to be perfect or have unrealistic expectations that I must not make mistakes.
Difficult conversation is not about conversation, it is about the other person who is toxic.
This person will 1) either simply turn their back and walk away from you in the middle of conversation or 2) if they stay, they will not listen to you, and they will forget about whatever you said - because that person is psychopath, sociopath.
Understanding concepts from that book "Difficult conversation" is actually parasiting and exploiting good and nice people who are open and friendly to listen to your rant and your problems. IT is concept that I will try to push people and see what happens. Eventually I will push someone weaker than me. So from ethical side, this is horrible and manipulative, narcissistic advice.
Conversation in normal and healthy environment is not about having fears in expressing my opinion, expertise, knowledge and information. If I have fears, it is not because it is my choice - fears are reaction to trauma and abnormal situations, abnormal people and abnormal events.
Because disagreement what happened - with difficult people will never be a disagreement. It is their way or highway. It is having argument with someone stubborn. Someone who is not willing to be wrong or even ever to admit they are wrong. I am describing narcissists, psyhopaths, sociopaths, exploiters, users, abusers, emotional vampires. They simply do not care about other people, they do not care about the topic and they see other people as a piece of crap and they treat other people as garbage, they see others as obstacles to remove or instruments to be used in their agenda.
This is what "helpful" self help books like the one you mentioned, do not tell us at all. The author will sell their half-baked idea, they will get their bank account full, but the advice is not realistic, it is not tackling the matter at all, and it will never work in the real life.
They will use our money, time and energy.
And also - it will create detrimental psychological damage, moral injury, to the person who needs help - since the message in real situations will be - "you have not tried enough" or "something is wrong with you", "you are too weak" etc.
Nope. The problems are psychopaths.
"Know your assumptions"
Analysis leads to paralysis. It is really quite simple: Shakespeare said: Be just and fear not.
If I do not have ill wish towards anyone, if I have no hidden agenda, if I do not manipulate others - I can voice out the elephant in the room, be authentic, be honest.
"Share your assumptions with curiosity"
The other person in difficult conversations will not share anything. They are stupid and have rigid agenda, they are probably criminals and they hide their corruptions - so they will never be open to conversation, they do not have interest to disclose information or to help anyone. Their only goal is to exploit someone or mock and destroy other people. They are psychopaths. They are greedy and criminals.
"It is about problem you try to solve together"
Difficult people will never admit they are wrong, even if shown the evidence. They are manipulators. They will use gaslighting techniques to blame it all on you.
Unfortunately we have not see any information about machiavellianism here.
Because behind any difficult people and any difficult situation is machiavellianism.
Than it probably was never difficult to begin with. It was difficult only in your head. You imagined it as difficult.
Difficult people are difficult because they are stubborn and refuse conversation - conversation would reveal their deficiencies and mistakes and everything that is wrong with them.
"led to a more interesting conversation"
This sounds like this person just avoided the issue and lead you via gaslighting to unrelated issue that appears as another problem that needs to be solved - thus it will keep you occupied without them taking the responsibility or doing anything to solve the original issue that is left unresolved.
Difficult people are machiavellianist - google it: machiavellianism
People who are emotional, as you said, are not emotional because they choose to be. So it is not something you start or stop at the press of the button.
it is trauma, it is polvagal theory. It is emotional hijacking - your brain is literally hijacked and you are dysregulated. Amygdala hijacking - google it. Hijacking means you are not in the control of your plane.
And people who struggle with this are not emotional about "every little thing" - there are triggers and flashbacks that trigger people into worry intrusive loops.
1 minute into video and I recognize fake click bait video here. Advice that is not advice, it sounds like it can work - but in real life this is unrealistic and this can even be detrimental - since it blames the victim for having trauma. Just horrible advice here. Narcissist and manipulators behind it?
"you need to stop lying to yourself. you don't need anyone's respect"
People who have issues with self confidence already do not seek anyone's respect. They have inferiority complex. They see other people as gods and their external reference is in external - other people. This video sounds like mash of quick psychology quickly googled and mashed up.
What you are actually talking or trying to convey is paradox of confidence. It is about trying to appear confident, we engage in over-compensation so we actually appear un-confident in the end. The secret is to accept our flaws, our idiocy, our mistakes, anything that is wrong with us that doesn't really matter in grand scheme - anything that doesn't hurt anyone, anything that we cannot change.
"A great way to stop caring is to have too much cool stuff in your life to even care"
Ok, this sounds sane and great advice. But I don't like where you go next:
"just do more stuff"
No. Nope. Being busy will only make more things to analyze over.
I see it in shifting focus on little things that we would forget doing them since we would worry about unimportant things (or as you said "cared too much" about). Also, it is about being grateful, that we realize we take so much in our life for granted and we do not appreciate it. Keeping yourself busy with more stuff - by inventing and adding new stuff to do - is just horrible and detrimental advice.
"People perceive this"
Nope. People are selfish and in large numbers extremely ego-centric. What people perceive is something that they can use for themselves. Practically no one thinks about how great someone is - this is part of being ungrateful and taking good people in our lives for granted. This is why your advice about keeping busy is horrible advice - since we then focus on problems instead of taking time to spend it with good resources that help us and nourish us.
Perhaps someone good needs our help and service or advice or opinion or experience - but we will not have time for them since we will invent unnecessary chores to keep us occupied.
"You aren't always available"
People who are watching these kind of videos are people pleasers and codependents, they try to help others and try to fix other people problems. So they will be available to anyone all the time. So from this point also - making more stuff to do will not prevent them from saying no simply because I have a lot of stuff to do. Just horrible video with horrible quick made advice, only to take our time. Click bait all over with ads sprinkled all over.
This video is good example of machiavellianism - where someone appears as help to us while all they do it exploit us for their hidden agenda - selling ads and marketing by exploiting our deficiencies and issues we try to resolve. Unfortunately for narcissists and manipulators - people are starting to be aware of your tactics and agenda, thanks to internet.
I see the name of this channel is "interesting ideas". Since you have none, you mash up quick information you found on internet and then sell it with ads, without ever thinking how your "advice" is having detrimental effect on people who watch it.
" Stop gossiping too much"
We already know this.
"talking people down"
People who have issues with people respect do not put other people down.
"practice Martial Arts."
Any exercise is always healthy and good. Unrelated.
"when you say something no one has courage to say, you put yourself in position of power"
Nope, you will not be in power. Cognitive dissonance will irritate others.
Also this is in conflict with the first "advice" when you described us that person who tells how it is is neurotic and everybody hates him.
"Talk less, listen more"
People who need advice about people respect already talk less and listen more.
They actually need the opposite.
"Try to understand where they coming from"
So.. you will not tell us that there are manipulators out there? You over-generalize all people as good and kind and nice who have no hidden agenda. Great "advice" in video about people and respect-
"All these skills and concepts will put you in a position of power and people will respect you"
All these skills and concepts are contradictory and will not do anything in real life.
IT will only give you bait clicks and some will click on ads. That is all these videos will give others. Machiavellianism 1-on-1. Machiavellianism all over.
I can observe toxic shame as hallucination - imposed belief that I am not worthy.
But trauma makes me believe how other people treat me, what they speak about me - that I perceive it as command, order - because dysfunctional parenting and dysfunctional environment early on instill belief in you when someone is putting you down as definition of self worth - in this case my self worth is wrong and inept and I must seek guidance in other people. This is programming. IT cannot be stopped at the press of the button. IT is complex trauma. IT is hypnosis.
High self worth would be that I am not bothered by how other people treat me bad - but trauma in trapped inside my body. My body is working against me. This means, whenever I would try to "forget" about what someone said, someone rude, that I do not base my self worth on external reference locus of control - will be counter-acted by my own body - since it is conditioned like circus animal, like Pavlovian dogs: body will produce stress hormones and chemicals inside whenever I need to stand up for myself - I will feel panic symptoms, it will feel very uncomfortable and thoughts will be trapped by default thinking originated from brain injury trauma being exposed to narcissistic abuse: intrusive worry and being pessimist, cognitive disortions and plethora of learned immature ego defense mechanisms. Such as introjection - absorbing other people emotions as my own. Inferiority complex - believing other people are gods and whatever they say I must never doubt, and I must perceive their words as my command and order.
I would focus on self worth in the direction of external validation - and bringing it back where it belongs - to myself, intrinsic motivation, intrinsic values.
This is very confusing for someone with trauma, because we think that we can get rid of people pleasing and fawning and being pushover at the press of the button - while in reality it is first about getting back our focus inside us - and then making decisions based on our own common sense, values, learned information, inner data - without leaning and being codependent on external resources as the reference point.
1) Who defines mistakes? What if there were no mistakes, but the manipulative people label something as mistake in order to ashame, control and manipulate the target? And if we have external referencing locus of issues we will never question them in the first place, whether there were no mistakes at all?
2) What happens to people who have perfectionist issues from trauma childhood? They are propelled and see normal and small, unsignificant things as mistakes? Then advice about mistakes is detrimental, since it augments learning process as catastrophe and it triggers OCD intrusive worry thoughts loops and cycles.
3) And finally, what about intelligent people who overturn every issue, event, action from all sides in order to see all angles, in order to see all perspectives - and there is still mistake to be found. I think in this case, to label something as mistake is also detrimental - since the person has overweight everything from every possible dimension - the obvious problem is in environment and people who are the real cause of mistakes but hidden from the view because they are not directly connected with given misfortune. To spend time worry and ponder about mistake in this case is detrimental - since you are stuck in a loop trying to fix something that is outside of your control.
All this can lead to cognitive distortions, thinking that I can solve issues outside of my control.
In given examples, mistakes will not teach you anything. In fact, you are encouraged to make mistakes - since it will face help the target to face their fears of perfectionism. This is because underneath it all is fear from other people - what they will say to mistake. So it is people pleasing is hidden behind the fear of making mistakes. And being pushover. So trying to solve the non-solvable issues masked and labelled as mistakes is road to frustration and poor mental health balance.
Who is the person on the other side? How this person is effected by "mistake"? I would say this is red flag about the other person - some people are controlling others through highlighing other people's mistakes. Some people have unrealistic expectations how the world should be - if we fawn them over we are engaging in their fantasy. So there is a fear from reaction by the other person, when we are accused of mistake, of trying desperately to avoid making mistakes - I see this as hidden cost and manipulation behind mistakes.
" Engage in healthy fight and flight response. Advocate or leave based on situation."
Yeah, that is hard with triggers. If I am still in toxic environment. I got to realize that sometimes I am over-reacting, as I was trained to expect bullying as normal standard of communication.
Also, what I learned is that triggers and flashbacks when they are based on the past and unfair treatment from others - that I can deal with it only through forgiving. If I do not forgive, I will be stuck in intrusive worry and resentment. I cannot control other people. I can only react in the present time in better way than fawning and self-censorship. What happened in the past requires to be forgiven. Otherwise it will fester into resentment and cognitive distortions.
I don't know what is worse : either to ignore it and pretend it doesn't bother me so it grows enormous and crash me - or do it think and analyze it till it turns into chronic anxiety and social anxiety avoidance.
"de-escalate by listening. You let them rant. Instead of speaking you avoid argument that will further escalate."
I tried that. From my experience it lead me to develop people pleasing, being pushover. Moral injury, seeking external validation.
"Yell, at certain point I can take it"
For people with complex Trauma (CPTSD) this can be trigger, flashbacks that sets of dysregulation - toxic shame, feeling guilty, depression, anxiety and social anxiety fears.
"When I started to talk to them"
Yep, this part is where I am blocked. I do not talk. I shut up. I self-censor. And it is not my fault - the other person is cursing, belittling me, criticizing Ad Hominem and I buy it, I believe their BS due to external reference locus of control.
"Never react out of emotion."
Yeah, this is very difficult for people with Complex Trauma. Emotions set of- the reaction is not external, it is internal explosion of toxic shame, feeling worthless and it can lead to suicidal ideations with repeated exposure.
"Don't take it personal" "Ego"
Yeah, that is true. But again, for people with dysfunctional childhood where we were exposed to adult hysteria 24/7 and child brain was unable to process it other than internalizing toxic shame as true and introjecting and shutting up self expression. It is being exposed to criticism 24/7 in early age when mistakes are natural and normal part of growing up - that now as adult it is ingrained as brain injury - believing that I must be perfect in anything - and since I can't be I fawn and people please - let other people take charge and believe their words as ultimate command and order. It is not that I take it personally - I am programmed and hypnotized to take it personally. Like a circus animal or Pavlovian dogs - being conditioned to take it personally.
For people who still struggle with angry people and cannot not to take it personally:
What I learned from Complex Trauma, from information gathered is that it comes down to complex angles:
1) that now there is brain injury that will default my thinking in two patterns: a) bring stuck with intrusive worry, being immobile and trying to solve the unsolvable and b) catastrophizing, seeing the world as black - automatically in every triggering situation. To counter act immobility and PureOCD intrusive worry hamster wheel loop I learned that I got to a) shift focus, without fighting fearful images, to be active and do chores that needs to be done and b) being optimist on force - since my brain is unable to get unstuck. It will get hook to angry person, angry person reactions, their opinions, their words. Brain is trained and programmed to do this and I am not in control of it. Trying to control it will only make it worse. In psychology they call this action stuff as "Behavioral activation therapy"
2) Self love and self expression - which means that I am prone to external reference locus of control since I learned this in dysfunctional childhood. It means I will put my self worth in other people hands, especially if they are loud, angry, aggressive or violent - I will see and perceive them as gods without thinking they are gods, I will match my emotions to theirs, I will try to fix their problems and feel responsible to take care of their comfort as my own personal command. I can shift this self worth back where it belongs - to myself. Which means trust my common sense and logic, gathered knowledge from resources like this video, my instinct and intuition, Freud calls it Super ego. Instead of trauma bonding and seeking validation from others, external resources. This when put in practice means that I question what other person is saying in my head, that I am not gullible, to know that other person may be lying or being severely mentally ill so I can't trust them 100% as guide or trustful resource.
3) Being honest and authentic and speak up, do not self-censor myself. When I allow myself to talk freely, I will paradoxically allow other people to be genuine too. So instead of enforced empathy that stems from people pleasing, now I can have true empathy - I no longer focus on my fears - but I can see that other person even though is angry and aggressive is actually very weak person that imitates being strong and competent by throwing temper tantrums.
It also means I can speak my opinion, express myself in accordance to my personality that other person may label as "snowflake" or "weak" - but I no longer feel defined by what other person labels as truth. It is about knowing Paradox of knowledge - that there is no absolute truth in the universe, as Socrates discovered. This gives me mentality to stop relying on other people as guidance as resource of anything, where my opinion should be based on myself, intrinsic values.
Speaking up to bully does not mean I need to be hysteric as they are, I can speak up and tell what is obvious but no one mentions it - elephant in the room without drama. And yet I am allowed to make mistakes. And I am allowed to react in certain situations as something that some person may label as "unkind". I learned if I do not do this, it will come back and haunt me as Moral injury later in life. It is painful and if I fawn to other people it leads to feeling incompetent, it feeds toxic shame inside - belief I am worthless.
So no this things trigger us into submission and fawning. We were trained to be subservient and now our definitions are messed up.
We think empathy means shutting up and allowing other people to throw their garbage onto us.
We think that conflict and confrontation means something very bad, that is must be expressed only through hysteria and temper tantrums or nothing at all.
We think that if someone is angry - this is automatically our fault and we must fix other people's problems and emotions.
We think caring for other people means giving up on our own rights, space and comfort at the expense of pleasing literally anyone around, especially if they are demanding and bullies, loud and obnoxious.
Whereas if we were raised in normal and healthy environment we would know
1) that we can care for other people without allowing them whatever they want
2) that speaking up the truth and being honest, objective and transparent is not rude
3) that we are allowed to leave is someone is not listening to our pleads & demands to stop when they dehumanize us
4) that we can express our thoughts, opinions and disagreements, and we can do it without screaming, hysteria and yelling
Yeah, I have been struggling with social anxiety, being irritated and triggered by rude people that sometimes I misread as aggression but my 4F trauma response kicks in nevertheless. And I'm coming to the point to see these responses as normal - and that there is nothing to change as for response. However this what you said - we lack deep permissions - I see this as disorder. That part needs healing.
For example instead of bees imagine psychopath who is enjoying in hurting other people who are hungry. Bees are animals, they are ruled by instinct and self survival, but in humans, there is external factor: evil, and that is the cause of distortions. Evil people traumatize children so the evil is also trapped inside the body since childhood trauma as Complex Trauma.
So social anxiety happens when we try to work with what we got - but it is toxic.
Social anxiety cure is to socialize - which means opening your boundaries. But what happens when you encounter external factor is that evil will ashame you and trigger you into submission and not feeling on par, not feeling at ease. That is how I see social anxiety.
It is normal reaction to abnormal people, abnormal situations and abnormal events.
And healing social anxiety means feeling at ease - being on par with the fear.
This can lead to shocking outcomes.
If another person have superiority complex - they will do their everything to shut you up and make you feel inferior, this is what evil instructs them to do. Now imagine, what happens when you do not shut up to them, when you speak the truth and when you speak out transparent and with objectivity. Because you no longer are subservient to them.
So bees would not sting you since they are animals, but evil will antagonize you.
Social anxiety is related to guilt - inferiority complex, feeling guilty for speaking up. And evil people will abuse this shame against you. So Social Anxiety is actually about being stuck in trauma of confrontation and conflict whereas I am inferior to the world.
As kids we were exposed to this conflict dilemma and we could not rationally explain what is happening - so we choose fawning and external referencing locus of control: seeing other people as superior and now we are stuck in the hole, looking at people from the gutter. You can't be at ease in the hole.
Being on par means climbing out of the gutter.
Social anxiety is trauma response, it is connected to Complex trauma. You will not heal it by going to parties.
"Life is rough"
That is advice? We did not know this fact before? Like, we can now drop all our fears, and panic attacks since we know the life is rough? If anything, this will make me feel worse :D
Social anxiety is normal reaction to abnormal people, abnormal situation and abnormal events. It is related to external reference locus of control (seeing other people as superior), inferiority complex (believing whatever other people say as absolute truth), toxic shame (believing to be inept and worthless and guilty about anything), brain injury (being exposed to narcissistic abuse that left toll on brain as intrusive worry and pessimism).
He doesn't mentions none of these. He talks general stuff how you feel unease at party.
Social anxiety is feeling unease everywhere, inside or outside, with people or without people.
There is post mortem - worry before the even and after the event. Anxiety is stuck with you, since it is trauma, trapped inside the body, with false and fake messages from other fake people who do not allow other people to be on par.
It is not only CBT - it is environment itself - it is as if we are not allowed to be afraid. As if it is not allowed. As if being afraid is equal to being coward, weak or traitor, some negative trait.
We got to be reminded often to counteract these false conclusions. We can be fearful and still be brave.
"Expressing your disappointment is a really good way walked all over and not become a doormat."
I realized I do not express my disappointment because of inferiority complex - where I put my self worth in other people hands. I like these tips how to be honest, authentic and objective.
People pleasing is being pushover - it ends up feeling guilty if I state that I am disappointed and it disables me to make query, normal, natural reactions without drama or being a jerk.
"It makes me feel disappointed to hear that but I understand, make it up to me; can I ask why; is everything ok."
I would try to avoid drama and being jerk - because this is how I learned is the only way to express your disappointment, so rather than engaging in temper tantrums that I observed in my environment, I would rather shut up and be silent and go with the flow, to keep boat not rocking.
"Don't act like it doesn't bothers you. Ask can they give you. Ask if they can make it for you."
"The worst thing they can say is no. "
Yeah, this is the problem right there.
If I expressed my wants or disagreements, I would get temper tantrums, anger, explosions, drama, conflict, rudeness, yelling, screaming.
"This requires you to know what you want, if you are people pleaser, you probably spent a lot of years of your life not even knowing what you want because you just tried to please everyone else. I want you to people pleasing yourself."
Whoa! That is intrinsic locus of control.
I see problem - not knowing how to stand up for yourself. How to de-program automatic guilt when we speak up the truth and alarm other person.
"They view niceness as permission."
Yes. but -
Also another problem is to recognize we are dealing with narcissists in the first place. This recognition part is difficult because borderliners appear as friends, they listen - but we do not understand they are listen only to accumulate data to exploit it as weapon later on.
This just came to my mind.
If I label someone as bad and toxic I give them energy and focus and unwittingly I put myself in victim mentality. If I feel like I need to match to them - it is introjection - I try to assimilate to their emotions. I would rather eliminate toxic people out of my life - which means shifting focus away from them
If I match energy to them - I am being pulled into their drama. Then they control me. I give them power to influence my anger, my mood, my peace. I would rather cut contact, door slam - but without anger and resentment and without holding on to grudge. They simply to not exist for me. I tackle negative emotions through forgiving them - but in the same time not having any contact with them. If I hold grudge - I will think about them, they will come up to my mind what they said, how should I acted - this becomes obsession, pureOCD, intrusive worry.
I cannot control other people. I can react in the moment - that is the only time and place when I can say something, think about them and react to them. IF they are toxic - they will not change.
IT is like expecting Chernobyl never to emit radiation. As if radiation is something I can control. I can't. I avoid it. I shut it down under sarcophagus. Out of sight, out of mind.
Problem is - what to do with people whom we can't shut the contact out of our life and they keep influencing us and pulling us in to drama.
Then.. another approach w
They even state: "No one can make you feel anything" "We allow other people" - but they miss the obvious point : that there are manipulators out there, that borderliners appear as friends but they exploit us for their drama enjoyment. That there are narcissists who gaslight others - giving false information. In these cases, other people influence us because we are friendly and nice and kind.
As said in video:
"society tells us we are not good enough."
Rush to help victim - can be complex when it is perplexed and intertwined with codependency and urge to fix other people and control other people. Usually learned as trauma in dysfunctional childhood by narcissists.
Not following rules - is widespread term. What are the rules? Are the rules to keep positive atmosphere - I would say rules are ok. If rules are Milgram Experiment - to hurt other person - I would say rules are bad.
Negative thoughts bothering me - I learned this is PureOCD, intrusive worry thoughts. It has specific techniques how to deal with those. The more I think about it equlas more of intrusive thoughts.
When people put me down, insult, don't appreciate - I learned this is very rare occurrance.
Find other guys - this one is hard, there are no people out there - they all have obligations and personal lives other than meeting new people. Also, people usually have their own negative traits that you may not notice right away.
Which brings me to my first sentence - external reference. Why would I make other people gods? Why would I allow bad people to influence my opinion, mood - if I do this I make them extremely powerful. I seek other people to make me happy. That is trauma bonding, learned as a part of Complex Trauma.
I would bring self worth back to myself - intrinsic value locus of control.
Also the receiver, a person who is shocked by this question and feel inferior, I would say this receiver is having external reference locus of control. This means seeing other people as gods and their words as if they are commands and orders to be obeyed. We can bring self worth back to ourselves. This means, we can question the other person if this person is mentally ill, narcissists, manipulator, borderliner (using drama just for the sake of drama).
I see it like this:
At one aspect we were forced to be adults in our childhood years - being exposed to adult hysteria which child brain is unable to process.
At another aspect our developmental stage was obstructed (Piaget, Vygotski studied the stages) and we never learned the stuff that other "normal" kids learned in their own time.
So from one aspect we were forced to mechanically outgrow egocentric phase - by being forced to people please the abusers - to think from their perspective, to be forced to shift focus from our viewpoint and expect what other person might want and need.
And in the same time, we got ego-centric by not being able to explore and show and display our viewpoint so we were stuck in tunnel vision - without love aspect. IF we were allowed to experience love, it would make us naturally deal with problems in healthy way. Being ok with ourselves. Without love, we got toxic shame and we seek validation from others, and put our self worth in other people hands.
This is very complex for child's brain. That makes us adults in early age.
And in the same time without love makes us being child stuck in Piaget/Vygotsky development stage.
I would investigate the influence of other chemicals and hormones in affecting the intrusive worries, PureOCD intrusive thoughts. I would say it plays a crucial role in trauma bonding, codependency being addiction to drugs that our body is pumping.
Like, when I need to stand up for myself, my body would shoot the dosage of stress hormones making me very hard to focus, talk firmly and have the stand necessary to assert myself in firm way - so it affects the communication as well.
Oxytocin, Dopamine, Cortisol, Adrenaline and Norepinephrine. Serotonin.
It is interesting to know this information about chemicals affecting our moods and thought process - because from within it doesn't feel like hormone surge. It appears as normal thought process line that develops into uncomfortable emotions, fears and panic attack.
For me, this is revolutionary finding. It gives me permission to stop paying attention to flashbacks and triggers and intrusive worry. For example, when I have Post Mortem anxiety thoughts - I no longer need to follow this process line. Without hormones and chemical information, worry, anxiety and panic would appear as a Crusader's war in my head. That I am being wronged by unfair people and that I must engage into finding solutions how to prevent them hurting me or engage in unproductive analyzing what happened in detail. From anxiety perspective, it will seem to me like this is normal thing - to invest time and energy into thinking and worrying how to solve unsolvable issues. It will appear to me as if I must find the solution and this process of thinking turns into Pure OCD hamster wheel thinking loop. Now I know this is chemicals ordering and guiding my thoughts.
From PureOCD information I know that fighting intrusive thoughts will only make them stronger, and brain will try to search for new things to worry about, since it is built that way to find problems and to self-protect itself. The solution for PureOCD intrusive worry is shifting focus to jobs at hand, tasks to be done, chores that I would forget to do - simple things like taking keys with me when I leave the apartment.
With hormones and chemicals information this shifting process makes it much more simpler because I now understand that my worry is not valid and true and important - as it appears in my head, it is not a matter of life and death - as it presents itself to me.
Look how complex this is. How much information there is to find out about complex trauma.
SSRI, body, instructions, therapist who have no empathy to understand trauma.
1) I think giving so much attention is hamster wheel loop - we give importance and energy and time and money to heal and fix ourselves.
But..how other people deal with issues that trigger us? How stupid people deal with triggers?
As I understand Complex trauma is low in percentage - therefore most people are therapist - they know how to deal with fears, anxiety and trauma and panic attacks. Which leads me to my next point
2) Can we just acknowledge our inability to react "normally" and deal with life issues - can be dealt with in "natural" way?
For example Polyvagal theory tells us that we are hyper-aroused all the time. We are walking on egg shelves and expect the next attack from unsuspecting source.
So... is there a threat really?
I would observe toxic shame as hallucination. So it is easy to dismiss feeling of being inept and worthless.
Also, since triggers and expecting attack and aggression is ongoing intrusive worry theme - I would say that we are not present in our body, in real time. We are either in past events or in possible future threats.
I would say let's be objective. Am I at threat right now?
And if something triggers me - as I understand trauma is being abandoned. So we repeat this abandonment process by abandoning ourselves. Therefore, to counteract trauma is being ourselves, being ok with my mistakes, being ok with my flaws. Being honest and authentic.
I see lack of love as culprit that is creating distortion and twister perception of reality and wrong explanations of what is going on, jumping to conclusions and biased and logical fallacies.
So.. I would focus on love. As the healer.
Healing must be simple and natural.
The more we think this trauma is complex - the more power we give it to be complex.
But in the same time if we dismiss it as hallucination - it is the trauma itself- being abandoned and dismissed not being allowed to express ourselves and downplaying our emotions, reactions as non valid, unimportant and stupid.
I think this double binding keeps trauma ongoing. Also I see education and information as important element.
So without Polyvagal theory, without knowing what fawning is, without knowing that codependency is addiction to drugs released in body keeping my to obey and feeling inferior:
Oxytocin.
Dopamine.
Cortisol, Adrenaline and Norepinephrine. Serotonin.
So once I know my thoughts are influenced by chemicals - I no longer feel need or urge to keep thinking the thoughts of some kind of Crusade war against the abusers, it is no longer about intrusive worry that I can't shake it off, what someone said, do or act - now I know it is chemicals inside me producing these intrusive worry thoughts. This information makes me able to shift focus onto chores, tasks, goals I need to do anyway.
Also, as I understand - complex trauma keeps us triggered: I get to freeze and fawn trauma response most of the time, very rarely into flight and almost never into fight response - as I know this is learned process in dysfunctional childhood.
However when I do get triggered - I won't be able to be aware at that moment that I am triggered. It will appear as Crusade war, or some intrusive worry unsolvable mystery that I compulsively must solve, or that I am embarrassed and that other people judge me and criticize me - so I must be perfect and other people's opinion is extremely important to me for some unknown reason. That if I appear weak, stupid or wrong that it is the end of the Universe.
Without Complex trauma information - I would not know these reactions are false, fake and immature responses of ego - and I engaged into intrusive worry about it and compulsions to appear good and nice.
So the problem is that when I am not aware this is cycle and toxic loop of trauma. Problem is when I do not see that over-arousal is not real - it is reaction, over-reaction to things, people and events similar to original trauma. Problem is that my focus at that moment is not into dissolving my beliefs and perceptions - but rather in being perplexed about trauma itself.
Similar to people who went narcissistic abuse and now they are hooked in watching narcissistic videos and methods and instructions - without doing anything about it.
That is why CBT is not working in my case. CBT is cold, mechanical instruction and information about the problem - but it doesn't give life - and what is important at the end of the day:
that I am not engaging in compulsive PureOCD intrusive worries, that I am not chronically aroused and hyper-alerted, that I have goals and dreams I want to do, that I allow my personality - including my mistakes to be and to express myself.
Monitoring my state, being aware of myself - as proposed by CBT is , as I see it, the Polyvagal theory being in hyperalert state. And thus it is detrimental.
I would see trauma healing as general concept how to handle life in correct manner. And that is love , having compassion and releasing resentment and grudges.
In my case I feel guilty and embarrassed - for not being strong, better, more masculine. While in the same time I feel anger towards abusers who manipulate and prey upon easy targets - people who are kind, nice and quiet.
I realized in both cases it is the only one way to resolve it - by forgiving. Forgiving myself for being whatever I am, and forgiving others for being bullies and abusers. This does not mean allowing it to happen again. It does not mean I should not make protest in the future.
But forgiving is the only way to resolve the guilt. And since I cut the contact with abusers anyways - this is natural way to delete those people out my mind - as if they never existed at all. If I hold grudge - paradoxically I am giving power to manipulative people to keep on manipulating me.
This is why Assertiveness and CBT is not working. They both claim that other people can't influence us - but they manipulate and trigger our trauma response - so they do influence us. You can't talk to them, they are abnormal, they are not human. And they are successful in projecting these onto targets.
"Boundaries wont work with narcissists because you are focusing on what narc has been doing to upset you, rather than focusing how they make you feel."
I have been repeatedly told that I am over-sensitive and that I am problem.
Yep, people are unable to deal with trauma on their own. Our brain is made to make it comfortable for itself. This means, if I notice something is dangerous, it will create PureOCD intrusive worry for me to think about it more and more, creating OCD hamster wheel loop. The purpose of intrusive worry is to keep me safe - brain tries to avoid danger.
Problem is when I start to meddle into defining what is good, safe, comfortable - I can end up being isolated and avoid life. Especially if CompleX trauma is present - our brain is unable to process unhealthy and toxic messages in childhood - and this hooks us up as adults to engage in immature ego defense mechanisms such as avoiding danger in order to be comfortable. From my perspective this looks normal because as child when my emotions, personality and psyche developed - no one noticed it is crooked. So now as adult my definitions of what is natural, comfortable, safe, good is misaligned. I am not the one who can correct this. I need outside help - but the first step is to become aware something is wrong.
If I have fears and anxieties and if I avoid life - yeah it will be comfortable for me to avoid conflict - but this is not about being comfortable at all.
I am just worried that you might suppress it and pretend it doesn't bother you - and that is immature ego defense mechanism.
Trauma is not you not having anxiety any more. Anxiety and depression are clinical definitions and in reality they never match with the real life situations since life is complex. To make it more complicated, people who lacked love in childhood are unable to identify what they are feeling - thus they might mis-diagnose themselves, then convince themselves this is anxiety or depression while it is something else in reality.
Trauma is also not something shameful or something that defines you as weak, so it is not something forbidden that you must never ever feel in your life.
Sometimes anxiety and depression are normal reaction to abnormal situation, abnormal events and abnormal people.
So when you try to explain how you at the present moment never ever experience anxiety and depression sounds to me like a red flag you are suppressing it and rationalizing it.
We are human beings, it is ok to feel bad sometimes. Sometimes we will encounter unfair situations and unfair events and unfair people - even when we did everything 100% perfectly by the book - we will still fail. To pretend we are not affected by it - is a sign of trauma still present. Trauma gets stuck inside like that, pretending we are strong and robots - that is what trauma is all about. It is paradox.
Did you check immature ego defense mechanisms? What they are? And how they manifest?
For example -
acting out:
Example: Instead of just saying, “I’m very angry with you,” the person who acts out may throw an object at the person or at the wall, which acts as a type of pressure release
OR
Intellectualization
Using information and facts to avoid dealing with unpleasant situations
Or
Rationalization
Coming up with explanations for rationale events in a way other than the real reason
Seen in individuals with obsessive-compulsive disorders
Or
Repression
Involuntarily pushing an unpleasant or unacceptable feeling or thought out from consciousness
Or
Undoing
Behaving or acting in a way to reverse unacceptable behavior
Example: religious penance, including praying and confessing one’s sins
This part was confusing for me - with social anxiety, fears and panic attacks - everything and everyone looks and appears wrong and scary, and my default guidance tells me to be isolated and avoid anything, anyone all the time. For me this is why I ended up being people pleaser, pushover and with toxic people and in toxic environment - since I was not able to filter out what is annoying, boring and uncomfortable from something that is healthy and unhealthy.
Problem is that anxiety lies to us. Anxiety is lying to us. That is what is makes complex because it obfuscate the inner guidance. Sometimes something doesn't feel good to me - but in the end it turns out to be great and something that I really needed actually.
I would say I need to discern whether if there is a fear from other person's reaction rather than my general fear of unknown.
What a person can do when they can't leave the situation?
What happens when triggers and flashbacks become so wide-spread that even slightest uncomfortable situations, people and events trigger you to leave them - if repeated on regular basis - it can lead to agoraphobia and total isolation. For me it left me with social anxiety issues, I just avoid people in general to solve any potential problems and issues and emotions.
I think the more functional way would be in the mind - that we learn what codependency is by definition. Codependency is keeping ourselves safe from other people temper tantrums.
Predatory personalities will sniff out that we can't stand angry people and they will exploit our programmed behaviour from traumatic CPTSD childhood. They count on us that we will do everything to please them.
So I would focus on this inability that we can't tolerate other people anger.
Being abused in childhood is not child's choice. Child exposed to adult hysteria and criticism 24/7 when child brain is unable to process it other than internalizing and introjecing toxic shame, it will develop immature ego defense mechanisms. Learning about it is great , being aware why we have fears today is also great, being willing to learn about it. However the information itself will not help. Information that we have false narrative of victim will not downpour magic information how to be strategic out of nowhere. I learned it is about the click in your head - when you realize you are dependent on other person or people to show you how to make things happen, how to lead life, what choices you must make and belief that mistakes are the catastrophe, being perfectionist - then you realize you have data information archive already inside you, you just have to access it and go with it, your own internet google questionnaire ask&tell is inside us, when you realize this, is when you shift from having victim mentality onto strategy mind.
But without information about external reference locus of control - I will not understand that I put my self worth in other people hands, that I automatically trauma bond with them.
Without information that there is no absolute truth out there - so other people are not gods neither are keepers of ultimate truth about anything in life how it suppose to be done - is also helpful to realize I can trust myself - since there is concept such as Paradox of knowledge.
Without information as these, it is not my personal choice to people please. I am not choosing to be a victim.
Instead of Richard Grannon I see Jordan Peterson as malignant teacher and self proclaimed expert that is doing actual damage, by influencing young audience who is still easily impressionable by someone who appears to be a "rebel".
"What you fight you make stronger."
Whoa! Who are you guys? It is like higher dimension, 3D meeting 2D.
Yes! That is it. This is something I started to realize couple of days ago. There are a lot of information about being too nice, people pleasing, how to stand up for yourself, how to set boundaries - but the truth is that with mentally ill people, manipulators and predators you can't communicate. And if you try to resolve the unsolvable you make it stronger even though the advice given may sound logical at first glance.
9:45 Narcissist create their own world, that is why you can't reason with them.
"Codependents Trying to manipulate someone loving you in the way you didn't get as a child."
That is narcissism. Codependents are in fact trying to avoid aggression, violence, attack. As learned in childhood. You don't do it for love, you do it because you try to avoid getting physically attacked, verbally attacked, ashamed, trying to avoid hurt and pain that psychopaths used to do in childhood to a child.
"It's brilliant that codependent has conned codependent that you're weak, that you're suppose to con the abuser that you're weak"
I don't see my fears, panic and anxiety as acting to be a victim. I think this is cruel and unfair judgement. When I broke my fears of standing up for myself - I ended up transferred from my job and a year later I was jobless, now due to plethora of external circumstances, it is second year. I witness in a corrupt country predatory types of people going to tremendous effort to hurt and cause pain to people who are different and who think differently and who are honest, and especially if they appear "weak" in their eyes: being quiet, nice, kind, friendly and open. So this judgement is somewhat biased and pontificating. I would be careful when formulating this statement - it crosses the line of what is normal into narcissism and gaslighting - blaming the target for the abuse.
"I knew that the people who I was allowing to mistreat me were wrong"
But there are people who are mentally ill - they are aggressive, they are narcissists, abusers, users, manipulators, predatory, primitive, savage, psychopaths, sociopaths, total lack of empathy. You are not allowing to mistreat you - you did not ask for any of it to happen, you did not instigate it, you are not the cause for the abuse, it is not your fault.
"Abusers are wrong so you are using moral judgement and resentment to create a distance."
Let's look from this perspective. Movie "Incident" from 1967. Random passengers are trapped in a carriage with two hooligans who abuse one after another. Neither of passengers stand up for themselves. Passengers tried to keep calm and pretend nothing is happening so that no one would attack them. I would say many of them are trying to avoid moral judgement and resentment, just as being taught by classical psychology - in order to not to rock the boat. But guess what happens when you obey and abolish moral judgement? You get injured by psychopaths and abusers and manipulators who are exploiting these moral codes and unwritten social etiquette of good and nice and civil behaviour. In certain situations you have to resort to defending yourself and that may include behaviour and actions and words that may be labelled as "moral judgement" and "resentment". What happens when narcissists and mentally ill person sits in a place of authority? I would be careful with "moral judgement" judgement - it can lead to Milgram Experiment. People can groupthink themselves into approving crime, corruption and nazi war camps - just because speaking against it would mean it is moral judgement. I would stick with common sense. If someone is abusive, rather than remembering what would psychology do, I would go with the instinct.
You speak as if amygdala hijacking is not a reality. As if our brain is a computer where people don't lose control due to fears and panic inside the body due to trauma response and emotional dysregulation.
"Traumatic powerful experience that you spent a lot of time, energy and attention to create this complex strategy, this game plan strategy. Now as an adult if you don't have anyone to play with that part is trying to continue living, that part is looking for new relationships to act out this highly strategic brilliant strategy."
Ok, but we know that quiet, nice, kind, open, silent and friendly people attract abusive people like moth to a flame.
And this lead me to my point: what is the abuse is ongoing. What if you are still in toxic environment right now? Narcissistic people around you? You speak as if trauma is one time event long time in the past - and that now we are no longer dysregulated. As if there are no triggers and no flashbacks. Well, there are- People who went through Complex Trauma are chronically hyper-alert and many are not even aware that this is chronic. Polyvagal theory talks about this.
"So you try to take on the world. Try to save the world"
Ok, I see you are not aware there are two types of codependents.
One type is the egoist - who will help people in order to get something back.
Another type is altruist - who help people due to fears and anxiety and panic in fear of getting punished, hurt or one of Maslow need to be met (shelter, finances, security, safety, service, help).
The first type will be aggressive and extroverted. They will develop high resentment when others are not appreciating their efforts.
The second type will be avoidant and isolated. They are passive and do everything to avoid hurting or displeasing the other person.
The goal to save the world will come from different standpoints and agenda. The first type has agenda. The second type is not aware of agenda (to have psychological safety).
I would say the first type doesn't have imaginary audience (discovered by Piaget as a part of children development), while second type will have inner critic repeating the programmed abuse from childhood where whatever they do is wrong - that is result of being exposed to narcissist, where you are criticized relentlessly about anything you do.
I don't like where this is going. You have amazing insight - but it seems to me that you are abusing and exploiting people who are willing to share and explore their psyche - and you are making basic mistake - you highlight their misfortune as cornerstone and out it on pedestal, put it high above for everyone to see it,, while in the same time, people who are not interested in psychology have much worst issues.
"If we start to say that we treat people who have appeasement issue by telling them to be assertive, we might be missing the dynamics of the relationship, "
This gentlemen is trying to say what I try to say here.
There is more than assertiveness beneath people pleasing. It was normal reaction to abnormal people, abnormal situations and abnormal events. And for someone who never experience mentally ill people in their childhood cannot understand it, and will define and label it as agenda and con job.
24:29 "You hide in a role brilliant fawn self to avoid thinking about the real danger, of not playing the game or being yourself"
Ok, I think now I see what you try to say - it is that we have super-ego inside us for guidance, super ego as databse and archive of information what to do, and to shift external reference locus of control self worth to intrinsic value, where it belongs.
26:32 "that's a narrative that you had to do to explain to yourself"
You are speaking as if it is a choice. A child has no capacity to handle and process the abuse other than given narrative. You speak as if child can do better or know better and choose something different.
"You con yourself to believe you are helpless"
Yes and no.
Toxic shame is hallucination. To really believe the result of criticism and nagging and complaining by toxic environment that I am inept and worthless. I would leave it to that, hallucination, I would use hallucinate as word instead of con.
You gave example for being clever child and being aware that parents are abusive.
I actually have experience with this, too. I have been struggling with social anxiety since 1989. In 1995 I took driving lesson - and as I live in corrupt country where yelling and screaming at someone who is easy target (new, quiet, silent, good, nice, kind) - I had an instructor who yelled and screamed at me - for driving - something I never done in my life, something that I learn and something that is naturally where I will make mistake. Well, after two or three weeks of anxiety and fears and panic - I actually did something out of my codependent role - I actually calmly said to him that I can't drive any more when he is screaming at me.
And - - he threw me out in the street, out of the car. Without notice when will be the next lesson. A few days later his assistant called and as I remember he still was nervous and unpleasant - but he did overcharged me because he said I was not ready and I need additional hours of driving. So, yeah - there are people out there who are mentally ill, aggressive, exploitative, who are not willing to communicate and they enjoy hurting other people.
What you say when you use "con" word, you are actually blaming the victim for the abuse.
I understand what you are trying to say and it is making sense - but only when you replace con word with hallucination. Then it makes sense to me, it is neutral and I do not feel like we are putting blame on the target of abuse.
"arrogance of thinking I am better than them"
Yeah, this is what I realized when I started avoiding people and social anxiety - I realized it was me pouting - and trying to control other people through my actions. I pout so other people will notice it and start treating me better, they will not hurt me, yell at me, call me sissy, or mob lynch me as they did that night when they turned around and walk away from me. I guess one of the kids started a rumor about me and they decided to make fun of me - I do not know why or what I've done. That is what you try to explain through the "con" word - but "con" suggests that I have hidden goal of exploiting other people. People pleasers do not want to hurt other people, they want to control other people emotions so that they are not aggressive, violent, unkind. I would use some other word than "con" to explain this need. I guess English language is missing word to define - what do you call when you try to influence someone in order to manage their emotions but for the good cause - without exploiting them, without taking money from them, without minimizing them, without disrespecting them, without dehumanizing them, without and damage done to them?
Synonym for con is to swindle, defraud, cheat, dupe, deceive, exploit, fool, hoax. It has negative meaning - leaning on criminal side. I would stick perhaps with delude? Delude: "make (someone) believe something that is not true." To bluff someone. Yeah, that is much better word: to bluff. It has much less criminal tone than "con" and it has the same meaning as "con".
While the gentlemen was saying his mother wanted him to feel inept - instead of con or bluff I would use word hallucination for this toxic shame. And once I realized toxic shame is hallucination I was surprised no one taught of this before, why Bradshaw spent half of his book explaining how to fight toxic shame - without labeling it as fog - something unreal - hallucination. His explanations and battles only made toxic shame more solid, and that is what you are trying to convey here in this video. But it turns out wrong, I think, is because of the wrong word to describe it. I would use Delusion and Bluff instead of con for methods used in childhood, while for feeling inept and worthless I would use word Hallucination instead of con. It is more empathetic and supportive than con. And it makes much more sense. Con is carrying guilt negative energy with itself. And guilt is already present with codependent people when they try to change their learned patterns.
35:35 "Fawn self can only plan the brilliant game. it's been programmed to be strategic. That's the only thing the false self knows"
This is what you keep repeating - as if we choose, as it is a choice. I see it as byproduct. I see it as the result to being exposed to mentally ill person in young age, when child brain is unable to process it as adult. Someone mocks you all the time, someone criticizing you literally all the time, someone reacts violently to any mistake you do at the age of when mistakes and normal and reaction - and you want to be nice and kind and civilized and without causing drama and temper tantrums - that would be violently squashed - you end up with "brilliant" "fawn self". You are molded and shaped into that persona. It is not like you read it in a book, or pick an envelope with instructions. It is not someone's personal choice - it is reaction to abnormal person, someone who needed medical psychiatric care, toxic environment that lack proper education and people who are lacking love.
"Resentment is doorway, they get powerful"
They also get a lot of guilt, you forgot to mention that. Resentment is road to mental illness, Roy Masters spoke about it 10 years ago in his radio show. If someone make you feel resentment, he said, this person than has power over you, it is hypnotic emotion. It also keeps the mind in hyperalert state with amygdala hijacking - so you get energy, but your rocket will not fly into the space, since it lacks control board.
I would not complicate it and use poison - it is not necessary.
Solution is quite simple: being honest, being authentic, speak up, speaking out the elephant in the room - something that is obvious but no one mentions it, not self-censoring myself - but without drama and explosions and without agenda to belittle someone.
"Resentment is codependent super power"
I discovered that resentment from Complex Trauma aspect is being triggered and hyper-alerted.
Also, from ego-centric side, being irritated is ego-centrism - seeing the world only from my perspective.
Resentment is wrong road to take - we can speak up without explosions and drama. Codependents do not speak up. They self-censor themselves. This is what you said we have fawn self that is fake and con job - being silent, self-censoring ourselves. It is not playing the victim role - it is believing other people are correct and their opinion is ultimate truth. It is external reference, external validation and trauma bonding. It is not victim playing, you really put your self worth in other people hands and now their emotions are my own worth, I must please them so my emotions will be calmed down, too.
48:32 "You don't need the map"
Yes you do, you need the map. Without the map you are not aware you are trapped. What you are trying to say in this very video is mapping. You are the map, your words are the map. We shed a light to dark room that was in the dark before, where we bumped onto objects in the dark. The map is equal to enlightenment and seeing things clearly. Map is scientific evaluation of issue instead of hunch and false words to describe strange and unknown phenomena that we encounter. Map is when you try to explain we are conning ourselves and others by people pleasing. That is map. Without map, from my perspective I am trying to calm my fears and anxiety and panic, that is all I know and all I can see. The map is when I rise above the terrain and I see other objects and people around me so I can get clearer and better picture of the terrain around me. With a map I can notice that cold and wet weather is coming from northern, icy parts. With map I will know I can expect hurricanes in the summer if I live in mid America due to confinement of terrain - so with a map I can choose and plan to relocate to some other place for example. With a map I can see that I am in flooding area and it would not be wise to camp at that particular spot that seems nice at the given moment of arrival. We need the map. Psychology, philosophy, science - this is all a kind of map. We need the map.
Anger, resentment - we become what we hate.
We choose fawn response to trauma because it reflects our personality and it is perfect agreement between our persona, our childhood discipline lessons and toxic environment around us, it is arrangement. You label it as "con" which is unfair and not clearly defining what is going on. Fawn is trauma response, it is not strategy. It is response. Reaction. Strategy would be me mapping the all life and then choosing my agenda based on profit. Fawn is pure trauma response that accords with persona, personality and mentally ill people who are abusive.
54:19 "I found out that I discovered that I have a strong fear of negative emotions, and I feel shame guilt and resentment and I feel it in my gut, throat, head."
This is problem with psychiatry. It seems as if people are wrong at having these issues - but in reality all people have those issues - they are just not willing to explore it. So psychiatry will actually make someone "crazy" just for them being honest and willing to admit emotions that all people feel. All people fear negative emotions - but narcissists will lie that they are strong. Manipulative people will never admit their wounds. Trump will never admit his mistake, because he is really mentally ill person. And in the end - people who are willing to seek and explore their emotions end up being scrutinized - I don't like where this is going. It is the same as rich people who can afford plastic surgery - so they believe they are ugly and they must fix something ugly on them - and in the end they under go endless plastic surgeries and become plastic monsters.
58:08 "She's still stuck in childhood, she's still stuck in caregivers control all the resources. But now you have a job, you have your own resources, you're not under the threat of the caregivers anymore"
Now I got you.
Ok, what about people who:
1) live in corrupt countries like Eastern Europe, where your full time job - is
a) actually dependent on connections to get a job in the first place, nepotism and paying to get a job
b) your job income is too low to buy yourself a home, shelter
2) if you have triggers and flashbacks and your fears are acting out out of your control - even when you label them as "con"
3) what if at your job people are abusing you
4) what if you can't find the job that gives you shelter
5) what if your paycheck does not provide you shelter, food, necessities for life
58:30 "and you forgotten how to control your high nervous system, she doesn't know how to regulate this"
What are you talking about? Regulating nervous system is not at the press of the button. There is no pill to regulate your dysregulation. There are no hidden instructions or magic path to regulation. We are talking here about changing the frame of mind to regulate ourselves - which is impossible without a map. If it is so easy, why don't you say how to regulate?
And no - meditation, pills, breathing, anger - is not the way to regulate yourself.
58:48 "Isn't this what people want"
You are making a mistake here. The same mistake as CBT and many experts and therapists. You are suffering from external reference locus of control-.
Ok, so people cannot be taken at face value. Freud discovered this 100 years ago. We only see the tip of the iceberg. When people talk, explain - yeah it is great to listen to them, but we have to be aware that there is so much hidden beneath the surface. We cannot modulate, conclude and make judgements only on what we see. We have to presume that people are not even aware themselves of the tip of iceberg phenomena. People are not educated in psychology, they do not know the terms nor concepts, they only get definitions of emotions through TV drama shows - so it is mostly wrong definitions. They read the book and they will identify themselves with that particular book. That does not make it true.
1:00:18 "How does the borderline cause the pain"
They believe they must be punished, and they perceive kind, nice, civilized people as weak ones. So they will respect people who engage in conflict and their drama, pain and hurt - that is proof of care for them.
Yeah, this con word is for borderliners rather than codependents. Actually borderliners are codependents too. Con word works perfectly from and for borderline perspective. Now con word makes sense.
Yeah, I think I know what you try to explain. I see it like this:
Narcissistic abuse created invisible injury inside us. Google: brain injury after narcissistic abuse
This injury defaults our thinking process in two patterns:
1) being stuck - overthinking intrusive worry
and
2) being negative - catastrophizing.
So it is our duty to step out of the car and push it, because the car is stuck in the mud and we need to push the car - since pressing the gas pedal only produces PureOCD - worry and self.obsession, paranoia etc.
Also, it is our duty to be positive and optimistic on force - even when I do not feel like it. The brain cannot push itself our of the stuck, and it cannot make itself feel better.
So the brain needs our help.
We step out of the car means to rely on our logic, common sense - once we relocated our self worth from external reference onto intrinsic locus of control where it belongs.
It means we rely on our super-ego instead of our brain. Our brain is due to injury anxiety prone, and anxiety is lying to us. It gives us false and fake information. It cons us and we are not aware of the fraud. It is not our choice, this is happening outside of our awareness and control. This is why we shift our decision into our common sense - gathered knowledge of what is right and what is wrong. This also means owning up our mistakes and being fine with making mistakes, turning out to be wrong, stupid, fool - anything our current brain is not allowing us to feel due to perfectionism.
So - what happens when we start to avoid narcissists is that we signal our brain that narcissists are very bad people (and objectively they are) - however objective reality is that we live on planet Earth, we cannot transport ourselves onto another planet or space ship. We are forced to live among criminals, psychopaths, sociopaths, cruel and dangerous people. If we run away from danger - it is ok if our life is threatened, but if we have option to be clear, honest, genuine, to speak out the elephant in the room - but we do not do it because we labelled toxic people as the most dangerous type of danger in the entire galaxy - then we are making negative energy to them, we are giving those bad people tremendous power over us, they have power to influence where we are going, what we are doing, what we talk about, we allow them to control our life. From that standpoint I would refrain from flight trauma response as default response. It is still trauma response.
As I understand "normal" people do not have trauma response. This is our goal - to be "normal". To not be chronically hyper-alerted. To not cut our lives and prune it off so it doesn't blossom.
Yep, CBT focuses on surface level - what they see in person on the surface. In the same time they completely ignore Freud's finding tip of an iceberg and that there is a lot of hidden beneath the surface. And yeah - the problem is that even the person is not aware or is unable to label emotions at all.
For me, CBT caused me to feel more panic and fears, it caused me to develop people pleasing, being pushover, codependent - because they claim I allow others to control me if I feel fears. And that somehow I must face fears - but CBT is not aware that fears are intertwined and perplexed with personality. So CBT is like lobotomy. It is cold, clinical approach similar to Nurse Ratched.
Also, CBT is about brain therapy - but for some unknown reason, they do not include brain scan to search for brain injury (google: narcissistic abuse cause brain injury).
IT seems to me like CBT is some kind of elaborated and effective government tool to keep sheep medicated and controlled , hehe-
This is the first problem. What is the definition of small? I would say there would be different opinion what defines something as small and what is big.
"Are there people you know who exhibit a self-assertive nature that you admire"
This can be tricky. Traumatized people usually label strong and assertive people who are quacks, psychopaths, sociopaths. In reality, these exploit and abuse easy targets: people who are kind, nice, silent, quiet, so they are not assertive, they simply throw temper tantrum and then expect other people to fawn to them. This is parasitic, not assertive, since they hump whatever is under their strength level, this is cowardice - but to traumatized people such jerks will appear as heros, strong and masculine alpha role models.
"it doesn't mean you are obliged"
Enter psychopaths, sociopaths, manipulators, exploiters, users, abusers, predators. They can't take no for an answer. They plot revenge against you if you stand up to them. They cause you damage and stick a knife in your back. You do not provide answer to that issue, how to deal with mentally ill aggressive people?
I don't think "stand up for yourself" is a correct frame to approach the issue.
It gives certain negative energy and danger and power to the other person, as if I have to engage in Crusade war for justice and higher cause.
I would rather re-frame it as: be honest, be genuine, speak the truth. IF you are not bad person, if you have no hidden evil agenda, if you do not wish ill will to others - there is no reason to self-censor yourself. As Shakespeare said Be just and fear not.
The paradox of confidence - is to accept I am not confident. Anything else is trying to compensate and over-compensate.
I like to use word "normal" because it is provoking for us who went through trauma. We tried all our lives to be "normal" like other people, and we totally missed the fact that our persona and personality - being kind, open, friendly, nice - is totally normal.
Nope. Trauma makes you pushover. Being exposed to adult hysteria in childhood when child brain is unable to process mentally ill people in your vicinity. It is being hypnotized into being people pleaser just to survive and appease the abuser.
"you get that horrible part of yourself integrated"
Wrong again. The horrible part is not you making mayhem at all. Horrible side that Jung talked about is something unsuspecting: being boring. Being weird. Being loud. Being obnoxious. Being stubborn. Being loser, being lame.
"You won't be able to resist it, you won't have the strength of character"
You won't be aware it is pathological. That is the only problem here. Peterson is making shortcuts, biases, logical fallacies. He reads a book and draws completely wrong conclusions based on his over-simplifications.
"you try to impress people there and try to get them to like you"
This is not persona. This is social anxiety issue.
"not hurt anybody's feelings, so you just present yourself as a punching bag. You think that makes you a good person"
Nope. This is not the reason nor conclusion nor perception nor mentality. It is trauma. People present themselves as punching bag because this is the only thing they learned to be, it is program from dysfunctional childhood: to be nice and to fix and serve other people and their problems.
"there is no integration of the shadow in that situation"
Yep, but shadow is not drama, explosions and wars and being a psycho. It is not about anger, resentment, grudge and pouting, being a jerk or a monster.
"Resentment is good emotion to make contact with shadow side"
Nope. Resentment is good road to mental illness. It creates distorted reality, twisted perceptions, cognitive distortions. This is what makes Peterson dangerous. He is instructing the younger audience confused and prone to external validation without critical thinking to be narcissists without empathy, he is teaching ego-centric kids to stay ego-centric children, spoiled brats. He says: if you want to control other people, throw temper tantrum like a baby.
"Resentful because people have been poking you too much, oppressing you"
IT sums up to not being honest with people, self-censoring yourself. Which suggests that other people are narcissists. You cannot negotiate with narcissists. They do not see other people as human beings, they exploit others. They are not interested in you or your interest, you cannot convince them to cooperate unless it benefits them directly and instantly. Resentment will not solve this issue.
"You can't stand up for yourself properly"
Well Einstein, what happens when other person turn their back in the middle of your sentence and they do not listen to you at all?
"You have to grow some teeth"
Again, he is giving detrimental advice. He teaches young audience prone to external reference of control to engage in narcissistic rage.
"that violate moral, you shouldn't be able to bite people"
And you shouldn't. People are not animals. Peterson wants us to regress to Dark Ages.
"Yes, you should be able to bite people hard"
ok, what happens when you mis-calculate your biting? What if other person is not aggressive at all? What if your needs and wants are unreasonable? What happens then Sherlock?
"They need to know you can" "people who are badly socialized will keep on encroaching you"
You solve all those with being dead honest.
"if you run into people who only have boundaries because other people impose them on them and you won't do it, you're going to be bullied one in the office"
And what if that bully is the son of manager due to nepotism and system that allows such system. What happens then, Sherlock?
"It's because you are a pushover"
Nope, it is because people are sick. Society is sick. It is not the fault of honest, genuine, authentic and fair individual.
"You confuse harmlessness with morality"
Seems to me Peterson is confusing narcissism with strength.
Well Sherlock - people who are manipulative, aggressive, rude, exploiters, users, abusers, predators, narcissists, parasites, emotional vampires---they do not listen to you.
They do not perceive you as human being. They do not have capacity to realize there are human beings around them. They do not care for you or your feelings. You are a tool, you are resource, something to get used, abused and exploited. No, you cannot talk to them, you cannot make them see, you cannot go to Crusade wars against them, they are mentally ill.
As a psychologist he should know what ego-centric is and that feeling irritated is sign of ego-centrism in yourself as well. So not only he has no clue about psychology, he has no awareness about people and it all comes up garbled up , so his advice is useless as usual - it doesn't work in real life situations.
Real life demands you to have empathy, to be open, friendly, nice, kind and co-operative. Sometimes being loving means being frank and dead honest. Sometimes it means cutting contact. Narcissists hate transparency and voicing out the elephant in the room.
Now the problem is why I need to say this - this is something he should talk about, not me.
From my experience, toxic people turn their back and walk away, they do not listen. They do not perceive me as human being, they see me as a tool or something to exploit. They do not care about my opinion or my needs I am just cardboard object that is either in their way or I should be subservient slave to them. So talking to them does nothing, they are stubborn. They are unable to perceive others as human beings and they are unable to feel empathy.
Yet, I would still stick with what you said. I used to self-censor myself and shut up. This is not solution. Talking will influence - voicing out the elephant in the room seems stupid, useless and weird, but it is very powerful and explosive, because truth is strongest and most potent weapon.
So that you become codependent on his vague idea about con concept, that he has trouble explaining in clear way what exactly he means to say actually.
Whatever you say that pleases him is ok and healthy, and approved.
However -
if you disagree with him or question more about it - then you are a bad person, you have some kind of evil agenda and strategy. You have some false narrative.
He is using this con concept himself.
This is called Machiavellianism.
If someone is unable to define his concept in clear and concise manner, you watch out of such people. They are usually high manipulators.
Let's look it logically, is it possible that in 100 years of psychology no one ever thought of this con concept up until now?
I am not topic here.
"Throwing words"
But you are doing exactly the same thing.You are projecting your own insecurities onto others. You don't understand something - you blame the other person. You talk about people who fawn that they have inner hidden agenda strategy and they manipulate others - but in the same time when someone does not fawn onto you, you are accusing them of having a false narrative.
So, what you are talking about false narrative is your own rejected self.
You diagnosed me over one comment with 3 sentences. People do not do that. You simply are talking about yourself, since your mind is the only world you know. You can't know another person after you read their short comment.
"what did it trigger in you"
Again, projecting.
You are using clips from people who are honestly speaking about their mental issues, but you are not prepared to take criticism when you are the one to be analyzed. This tells me that you are the one triggered.
You are talking as if codependency is a terrible plague, a shameful secret.
You said that you found evidence for Richard actually still being a codependent.
Well, Richard stated many times in his videos that he is struggling. He did not said that he is cured and now that he is Messiah.
Also, your Con concept is bias, logical fallacies. You did not discover something unknown and undiscovered. People use shortcuts when they are faced with things that are unknown or complicated or difficult and hard.
This is not strategy.
Your con concept is about false framing - and again this is not exclusive codependent issue, neither it is hidden agenda. You turned it as if it is some kind of crime or manipulation. I think you have codependency issues yourself and you are very ashamed of it - and you try to cover it up by controlling and ashaming easy targets - people who are quiet, nice, silent and obedient. I find that very disturbing. But, as I see in your videos your idol is Jordan Peterson - and that explains a lot. Manipulator explaining gaslighting and blaming others for gaslighting.
Yeah, this is another thing that bothered me about him.
Resentment is bad way to deal with triggers and any kind of issues.
It is possible to state our opinion without explosions, without wars, without drama. Being hysterical will only make the abuser to be perceived as victim - because they will accuse you of being a monster.
And he is contradicting himself. He said What you fight, persists.
Well this concept works for resentment, too. If we hold grudge, if we pout, if we invest time, energy, money into anything - it will make it stronger.
I always wondered why there are so many angry outburst and public violence in USA - I guess people are brainwashed into thinking it is ok to be resentful, that is ok to be a monster. No, it is not. Monster is still a monster.
Every single abuser will tell you that they had rough childhood and that they were mistreated. Abuse does not allow you to treat other people like garbage.
Speaking the truth, voicing out the elephant in the room is very explosive and radical - and it does not have to be done with hysteria, screaming, violence, drama.
Hint: if your response is critical he will blame you for being a con and having evil strategy and false narrative.
Also notice how he laughs at people at the end of video. People who are struggling with mental issues - he is mocking them and ridiculing them.
I find that particularly disgusting.
I am not subject here. You are trying to control people by ashaming them.
And you are very ego-centric, a baby trapped in grown man's body - which would explain your disgusting mocking and laughing and amusing over people who have mental issues.
Do you think you are some kind of superior being who is able to define who is fool, that it is ok to degrade other people just because they expose you as fake and fraud? Just because they do not agree your lunacy and passive aggressive narcissism?
You have serious borderline issues, buddy.
It hasn't occurred to you that you are actually trying force people to think like you? Like me all must think exactly the same like you, otherwise you will label us as a fool. This is not North Korea. People have right to have different opinions and perspectives.
Since you have some kind of magical ability to notice wrong narrative in random strangers over internet, can you explain to all of us what is the correct narrative?
So we can fire all those psychiatrist in the world and burn all self-help and psychology books - since you are obviously the holder of the correct mindset narrative?
You are like Jordan Peterson - you read a book or two, some article, and you think you now know the subject. Of course, you cannot explain it, but in your mind you are superior being, while other people have false narratives and they are fools.
So you give vague explanation that is non functional in real life- and since it is vague - you simply blame the person who wonders about details that the person is having false narrative.
You are trying to control other people, you got serious manipulative issues, you just bury it deep within yourself and then project your twisted distorted explanation reality on people who disagree with your madness.
Sorry if I seemed dramatic in my post above - I was trying to describe my experiences with anxiety, panic attacks and PureOCD in span of 30 years, so I guess it may come out as if it is happening right now.
This "brain injury" concept was huge discovery for me - because this was my stumbling block. I knew that I have to be active and optimist - but I had problem with keep getting stuck. Like triggers happen and I feel like I am at square one, right at the beginning, like I was not making any progress at all. Brain injury helps me understand that this is "natural" due to injury and I can expect it to happen.
I used to think my trials and advice I would take do not work for me - now I know they do work.
It is like as if someone told me that my hand brake in my car will automatically pop up - and I must plop it back down. Without this information I would drive with my hand brake on- thinking this is normal for this kind of car and that I will drive stuttering my whole life. Now I know I have the power to fix it. That's what makes this brain injury so powerful realization for me.
I understand many people out there have the same issue, so I hope this information will help someone out there..
Also in the meanwhile I learned there is medical term for stepping out of the car analogy and pushing it with your common sense. In CBT this is called "Behavioral activation therapy" and they explain the process - but I guess if I heard it before I would not understand it, since I would not know about complex Trauma, brain injury and super-ego as depository for common sense. CBT as usual is half-baked and limited to clinical instruction, as if it is created for a machine.
In her last video she made great point - we can't win argument with narcissist. They are always the correct ones.To make it more complex, our society program us that we must be strong, that we have to upkeep our ego, that we must not be embarrassed and ashamed, as if we have to be some superior unreal ideal person who is not allowed to make mistakes --- and this program actually sets us up to be people pleasers, pushovers and thus easy targets for narcissistic people who take advantage of our imposed beliefs to be nice and kind people all the time to everyone, even when they are not nice and kind to us.
So instead of leaving them or ignoring them or voicing out the elephant in the room, instead we'll try to argue or fix them or please them to calm them down.
Yeah, this being stuck is not my invention. I read it in countless books before, and I saw it in videos, people talking about it, and I felt it too. It is the real deal.
For example this video:
""2020's Biggest Breakthroughs in Math and Computer Science", they said;
"Computers usually operate based on inputs and outputs but sometimes they can get stuck in infinite loops."
OR video called
"Body Memories Uncover Hidden Trauma. Understanding Codependency (SLDD) Addiction." by Ross Rosenberg, he said:
"There is a part of person that is frozen in time at the age of the trauma. "
"You cannot resolve it unless you understand it where it came from and why are you stuck."
Mel Robbins said in her Aha video:
"All habits are stored in subconscious, panic attacks. When you think what to do you use conspicuous part of brain. This is why you are stuck. We try to change with conscious part but it is our nervous system that is in control."
I particularly like Lisa Romano statement:
"I am not advocate ashaming people for being who they are. It doesn't mean I excuse. I was stuck in resentment...
I let people off the hook. You we're not responsible for making me happy anymore."
Gazipura Aziz:
"Look for the rules that are crushing you. The ones that keep you feeling confined, inadequate, guilty, and stuck.
Discover dozens of new rules that will liberate you and help you create healthy, satisfying relationships."
Actually this guy was the one who helped me to shape brain injury and being stuck concept, I can't find his video, but this guy is famous you tube guy - he usually makes interviews. He talked about the importance of being active - that we are prone to stagnation and lethargy.
Later, I learned Voltaire said it, too:
"Man was born to live either in the convulsions of misery, or in the lethargy of boredom."
Yeah, I completely understand you.
Look, it is great that you are aware of PureOCD.
I found it out only in 2015. As I know I have been struggling with intrusive worries at least since 1995. I never label them as such - they just appear as quirk, perk, caprice, unexplained moodiness.
So in 2015 I decided to actually go through all the collections of books I read - all the notes I made from them - line by line - and 6 months later - the result was that I identified the problem as intrusive thoughts. Next thing I googled them I got to PureOCD information and Mark Freeman videos. I like this quote from him; "You don't have to chase every stick your brain throws at you". It is video called "How to deal with intrusive thoughts" - if you haven't seen him, I'd suggest you give it a try, it was a revelation to me... But as I said - as life went on I got in some uncomfortable situation and I was stuck with worries once again - because I did not know the concept such as Complex Trauma, external referencing locus of control, external validation, trauma bonding and brain injury. That is what brain injury is - we will encounter some event, situations, people that will groove us back to depression, engraving of worry, being stuck in cycle of trying to solve the problem that is not ours to solve anyway.
What I learned from Mark Freeman video messages and PureOCD techniques is -
don't fight these conclusions. But in the same time be aware of them as conclusions, not facts. See them as thoughts in your head, you thinking that life is hell, and that intrusive thoughts are hell. See this as a construction in your brain, not as realistic, objective reality. See it as a rule, some kind of obligation, a program you were hypnotized to believe in. The idea is that you start cognitive defusion - that you start to doubt all intrusive thoughts - so that you are able to shift focus from them.
Right now they appear like on a big screen in a movie. You watch the movie and you are not aware that you can for example look down and check your watch, or grab pop-corn and soda from your lap, you can and you are allowed to move your face, eyes away from the screen. That is what we need to re-create in our heads with intrusive thoughts.
Intrusive thoughts are not hell - objectively speaking. They are natural, normal reaction of the brain to abnormal circumstances, events and abnormal people from our life. We were exposed to mentally ill people, adult hysteria and relentless criticism 24/7 when we were young kids. Child's brain is unable to process this, so brain does what is mechanically created to do - it protects itself from pain. So intrusive thoughts are mechanism of the brain, automatic response to the threat that match our persona and our personality. Since we are not psychopaths, and since we were instructed to shut up and never complain - we developed inner chat, inner rumination to express our discontent and unfairness and hurt and pain - and we directed it against ourselves with out thoughts, through inner critic that is producing these inner intrusive worries. It is all mechanical, try to see it like that, a normal reaction to abnormal situation.
To make it more complex, our body also includes chemicals and hormones that keep the cycle of intrusive worry ongoing. So it influence our mood, too - through pumping the hormones. For example - if you do speak up and defend yourself, if you express yourself - the body will rush adrenaline inside our body and it will activate panic attack physical symptoms - and we will shut up, freeze - and continue with what brain learned is the best reaction - intrusive worry.
When you see it like that, at least for me - this gives me tremendous power to shift my focus onto my goals, tasks at hand, jobs to do, dreams I want to do, forgotten chores that I put aside because I would worry about what someone said or what something might happen.
I also see analysis as a form of intrusive worry, rationalizing what is happening - so if I engage in explaining myself - just like I am doing right now - and I am unable to switch my attention to tasks at hand - this is also a form of intrusive worry. And that is fine, it is all natural, it is brain defaulting to injury that we got engraved when growing up. IT will happen, our brain will default to intrusive worry and pessimism. It is Stockdale Paradox. You accept it that it will always happen, and paradoxically you are free from hell. Similar to Chinese finger trap. The more you move your finger -the tighter it gets. As soon as you calm down and you are not over-reacting any more - you are able to get rid of it, naturally it falls off.
That's how I see intrusive worry. Instead of hell (which definitely feels like without any doubt) - I see it as a mechanical, totally normal, natural, studied reaction to trauma.
In fact, it would be very strange if we did not have intrusive thoughts as reaction to trauma.
It would mean that we are dead inside, a psychopath. Having worries means we have empathy, we have soul, we have heart - we are normal human beings. We were just instructed in childhood by mentally ill people to think like mentally ill people. That's all. Wrong learned process of thinking by people in charge who needed psychiatric care themselves. It is not our fault.
Yeah- the guilt is also one of side effect of trauma that bonds intrusive worry ongoing.
Brain injury, hormones&chemicals and guilt - these are the motor for intrusive PureOCD thoughts.
When you see it like that, instead of believing in our own explanations of worry - it gives us power to move on. We will allow amygdala hijacking to go away, and we will activate our cortex brain to lead us and guide us without worries popping up and us paying attention to those pop up messages instead of the main page.
You are just proving my point.
Jordan Peterson is making you regress. He is not healthy person, he is not making you realize you are ego-centric. You are unable to receive constructive criticism and opposing idea without triggering hysteria in yourself. Like a baby, throwing temper tantrums just because you can't understand something.
That is what quacks like Jordan Peterson are doing to unsuspecting public like yourself.
He is glancing your testicles and you think you have the right to treat other people like garbage. I think it is time to grow up. You don't need alcoholic narcissist to tell you what you need from life. You have your own brain to tell you that.
From his point of view, he is helping others. He sees himself as saviour and good person. So at the end of the day he can feel superior for all this plentiful help he does.
He doesn't know this is classical narcissism.
The same thing with Jordan Peterson.
Jordan Peterson also uses psychological concepts as a tool to manipulate other people - instead of helping himself.
They both believe there is some imaginary perfect correct way to conduct life and whoever cross this line should be ashamed.
They both shape shift psychological concepts in order to fit into their ego-centrism, reject certain concepts that does not suit them or reveal them as narcissists.
The problem is - who defines what is standard?
Who defines what is normal and good for everyone?
History showed us that when people regulate their personalities in order to conform herd mentality - can lead to Milgram Experiment - because there will always be some psychopath who will take advantage of loops in the system - and thus control the sheep.
This is what he is doing. This is very unhealthy, toxic.
He is totally unaware that other people have emotions, that some of them are suicidal and they hurt easily. He has no idea that other people have trauma, that many of them are not aware they have trauma. He doesn't care about other people. He only cares about his narcissistic injury and wound, that is primary concern for him.
He doesn't care and he is unable to imagine that other people have rights and that they are human beings. IT is too painful to allow human beings to exist if they are not approved by his own imaginary standard of living, that he concocted using psychology cocktail that fits right in his narrative.
He said that I should be aware of not making a fool out of myself, that I have reputation to upkeep and that I embarrass myself. He was actually describing his narcissistic wound and trauma in childhood where he was criticized and blamed where he learned he is not allowed to make mistakes or say or act stupid way, that he is not allowed to turn or acting as a fool.
He came up with idea to ridicule and mock and make fun of others when they cross this imaginary superimposed concept of perfectionism.
So he is allowed to punish other people when they are "incorrect".
This is what we saw in history again and again. Crusades, world wars, dictators thinking they know what is the truth - and all people must think alike in order to be peace.
But the problem is:
HE is not aware he has imaginary audience in his head that is producing these unrealistic rules and superior obligations and moral pontificating decision about what is normal, what is foolish, what is embarrassing. Then he projects these rules onto others and toxically ashame others who are not agreeing with him or who might question his beliefs, rules and superior concepts of living.
And all of these nonsense comes down to - him not allowing to be a fool. Not allowing himself to be natural. To talk honestly, authentically. To admit he might be wrong. He thinks he must be correct. He must be perfect. Or else the world would end.
Allegory of long spoon in his case is: others are obliged to feed him, while he does nothing at all, since he is superior being.
How interesting.
But he does not explain us why we should be strong? Against what? What is weaker? What happens when we can't be strong? What happens when there is a weak period in our lives? What happens due to external circumstances which are unfair? We fall apart? We feel guilty? We drink alcohol? What?
These are all thoughts related to narcissism. This epic battle to appear strong and superior in other people's eyes.
What he is actually trying to express and convey with "Strong" concept is amygdala hijacking and emotional dysregulation. But since he is a narcissists and possible sociopath, he has no soul inside, so he cannot comprehend that other people have morals and ethics inside as a living organism. He can intellectually read about it, but he is unable to live it. Therefore, his Strong versus Weak is being convinced that you can manage fears, anxiety and panic at the press of the button.
Which he can - he has no empathy, he is ego-centric so he observes his world only from his exclusive point - and therefore since he creates his own imaginary fantasy world he can be Strong at the whim. Except if someone speaks the truth to him - then he gets confused and probably labels that person as narcissist in order to protect his narcissistic injury and wound.
Since he abuses and uses psychological concepts to serve him - as superior being in his imaginary fantasy world, he rejects certain psychological concepts such as Maslow needs, or adapt and choose his own explanations of certain concepts such as narcissism.
As I saw in your comments with me, you are also fixated on public. You are fixated on what other people think. You have serious toxic shame issues, just as Jordan Peterson.
Look at your words:
"embarrassing yourself "
"reputation destruction"
"you're making a fool of yourself"
So what means "I am embarrassed"? What will happen if you get embarrassed? Will the world explode? Will you drop dead if you are ashamed? It is as if you are dead scared of being embarrassed and make a fool of yourself? So you try so hard to make a good impression of yourself in order for someone might think you are fool and that you are mocked?
So instead of allowing yourself to be embarrassed, you mock other people and analyze them?
You learn all psychology concepts that serve your fears so you can attack people back when you feel ashamed?
Do you think that is normal and healthy approach?
Psychology is medical tool to treat people with mental issues. Psychology is not your personal plaything to make fun and poke other people's mistakes in order for you to not feel shame yourself.
Peterson and you are treating psychology as if it is your personal supermarket - where you can pick up concepts that suit you, and ignore or pretend other concepts doesn't exist, especially those whom you do not understand or cause you pain since it expose your narcissistic wound. Or you even make up your own concepts and bring to market place to sell it yourself.
So yours and Jordan Peterson's definition of strong is what public thinks. Your definition of strong is approval by public. You are afraid of being ashamed, afraid of being embarrassed. As if there is some deep narcissistic injury that you must protect - thus you must be strong. The world must see and perceive you as strong. Otherwise ...what? You are not worthy to be superior?
That is narcissism.
Then you cover shame up by making fun of other people with mental issues, you analyze them from distance - so they can't reply or defend themselves, and you spread undefined ideas of "correct narrative" as if there is some kind of unknown general rule of accepted behaviour that we all must follow perfectly - otherwise someone will ashame as, and we will be embarrassed.
That is toxic shame.
There is no correct narrative. There is no normal behaviour standard other than being kind and non violent. People cannot be shrunk to fit into square if they are a circle or triangle.
I guess that is why Peterson cannot understand there are Trans people in the world. Because his correct narrative is gender that his narcissistic environment taught him to believe as just and fair world.
That's why fascists try to mold people into their correct narrative - because they are convinced this will solve problems and issues in life. People are not machines. They are not Borg, people are created to be different. This includes being weak, fool, ashamed, embarrassed.
In your head it is so ego-centric and tunnel vision you do not see that this obligation of yours to avoid shame is coming from your imaginary public in your head. You have some audience in your mind that is activated when you think you are ashamed. And this imaginary audience drives you to pontificate others, so your flaws, mistakes or anything potentially shameful is not in the focus. That is toxic shame, you are toxically ashaming others because you have deep toxic shame inside you.
Can you explore what does this imaginary audience appear in your head? That audience that defines what is publicly acceptable and defined as a "good reputation"?
Are they a silhouette? Do they have faces? Do they appear as a portrait or look sideways like Egyptian art from Cleopatra period? Or perhaps it is a single person that appears one by one? Do you interact with that public? Do they have personality? OR does this imaginary public communicates their definition of reputation and definitions of embarrassment through audio only? Are you aware that you base your life decisions upon given compulsion of this imaginary audience and their approval?
So your imaginary standard of correct narrative compels you to feel great when you analyze others. That is narcissism.
Paradoxically, with all learned knowledge about psychology, you are not aware that other people wear masks, you see only what is on the surface, that people change their opinions, that they get distracted and make mistakes. That people are finicky, that people are not honest, that they are not aware what they think feel or they misinterpret their emotions. Yet you judge other people who you label as fool or ashamed as if their every move is some kind of cosmic judgement. So you convince yourself that there is some kind of brilliant con concept. Instead of working on your own tolerance to shame, being embarrassed and being ok with being a fool - you are constructing imaginary psychology concepts that you use in your Crusade tours to label and mock other people around you. That is narcissism.
People are human beings, you cannot treat other people as garbage or a tool. People have emotions too. You cannot resolve your shame by shaming others. You simply create more shame.
I can just imagine what kind of ocean of anxiety you must have with these imposed beliefs and fears of being a fool or being embarrassed.
How do you handle life situation, in real life?
Do you suffer from agoraphobia? Do you have rules and obligations how to walk and dress so that in every second of your life someone might not pinpoint some detail as embarrassed, ashamed or as poor reputation?
Analysis leads to paralysis. If you have fixation on idea that there is a correct narrative - what happens when you do actually make mistake? Do you freeze?
Do you quickly cover it up so no one observes it? To what length do you go to cover your presumed mistakes of embarrassments? Are you aware that this covering up is road to pathology?
Do you take alcohol as Peterson to heal toxic shame?
Are you aware that even after you make all the right choices in your life - that you can fail, and it can turn into disaster. Are you aware that you cannot control life? That you cannot control other people?
How do you talk and communicate in real life?
Do you have some general guideline how you behave, talk with other people? Or actually you do not monitor yourself, instead you just monitor and analyze others so that you do not feel shame?
I am saying - you do not need to look onto other people to analyze. Just look at yourself. There is plenty of narcissism inside you, false narratives and concepts to analyze. Toxic shame is hallucination and you make your fantasy world - which is invisible to you - but you will see it when mirroring and projecting it in other people who appear everything you do not allow yourself to be: fool, ashamed, embarrassed with lost reputation.
---
Yeah, I was talking about other people pontificating the "lesser" whom they see as inferior in their eyes.
But I also was talking about inner critic.
Some people like myself has this sypho person inside, as leftover from trauma - and it makes you to be perfect, trying to attain unachievable unrealistic standard, trying to make you not to be a loser - but the side effect is the opposite - you end up avoiding people, avoiding life, being afraid of living it in order to avoid making mistakes or what might be labelled as mistake by someone else or my inner critic. Constantly monitoring yourself - leads only to chronic hypervigilance. That is a high price to pay "to be not a loser".
Amazing video message. This guy is prime content on you tube. He is doing a great job.
You obviously is very young.
You will learn, as we all do, that there are psychopaths in this world. Some of them will be very overt therefore you will recognize them immediately.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of them who are covert abusive and manipulative people who will present themselves as a help and a friend and a Father, as you called him. But in reality they are liars, they only exploit others for their hidden agenda, taking away your time, energy, finances etc.
You are confusing people who are honest and genuine with aggression.
You see, if I really had "shitty personality" I would call him a shit. Or you. But I don't. You do that. You treat people like garbage. Therefore you have unpleasant personality.
"Check his stuff out and just listen"
I did check his 'stuff' and this is my opinion of it. A person who claims to be freedom of speech advocate sues University behind everyone's back as a way to prevent their free speech - is nothing but hypocrite to me.
Jordan Peterson is narcissists and manipulator. He is abusing psychological concepts to trick people with lower IQ and lower emotional IQ like yourself, in order to gain followers. He is not interested in your well being. He doesn't care about people, his kind does not. He cares about being King of the Hill, he cares to be superior being and use psychology as a tool to ashame and control other people. Of course, he have no idea about psychology - as it is clearly evident in his social anxiety videos.
He is great at memorizing text and repeating it a a parrot, he is clever enough to do that, so he can present himself as clever and intelligent men.
But he lacks empathy and intelligence enough to connect learned data.
And what you get in the end?
You end up with a person who is giving vague, oversimplified ideas that are contradictory to his previous statements. You end up with a person who follow narcissistic superiority idea about what life should look like and all human beings must think and act like he demands it. So guess what - he dislike Trans people - since they do not fit into his grandiose idea about approved human lifestyle. That is road to pathology. We had people like him in our past.
Look and read his Twitter and you will discover it yourself.
He doesn't like vaccination so he nags about that. Since he lacks empathy and moral and ethics - he does not care about people who are dying and who will die, all he cares about is his grandiose fantasy ideals.
"I am really worried about you", too. You do not understand you don't need a Father. You are grown man. You can take care of yourself. You have consciousness, you have your own brain. You are not sheep. You can make mistakes, you are allowed to be a human being, not Jordan Peterson's pet.
Groupthink and herd mentality is wrong way, I hope with time you will realize you carry so much toxic shame inside you, and just as Jordan Peterson instead of dealing with it - you spread it around yourself, which is very aggressive and abnormal.
There is no bait. I am being frank with you.
What you are doing in your video is what I am doing in my head ever since I had started social anxiety.
I also tried to achieve higher superior fantasy ideal of correct narrative, as you called it. And I would monitor my behaviour and pinpoint what is wrong - just as you are doing in your videos with other people.
This is wrong.
There is no correct narrative.
This monitoring to correct yourself leads to neurosis. It leads to be constantly hyper-vigilant and chronically worried, you will end up with crippling anxiety and panic attacks.
You are allowed to make mistakes. We are human beings. We are not gods, we cannot be perfect. Perfectionism is illusion. What you are doing with seeking correct narrative in other people is exactly this urge to be perfect.
What will happen if you make mistake?
What will happen if you make a fool out of yourself? You are afraid you will lose your reputation? Who are the people who define reputation? Do they pay your bills? Do they buy you stuff, support your life? What control they have over your life, that you are so afraid you will lose their support?
This constant searching for correct narrative and trying to correct others or yourself with imposed superior idea is like pruning your tree whenever a bud springs up. Because you have a magazine with a picture of a perfect tree - and you want your tree to look perfect, just as it is on this particular picture you like.
But what you don't know is that your tree is a different sort - and it is suppose to grow buds in places where you don't approve them of. So instead of allowing your tree to blossom into a specie it suppose to be, you are constantly pruning and forming and molding it into a monster tree. Similar to plastic surgery of wealthy people - who think they are ugly, so they do plastic jobs on their faces over and over again in order to attain perfection and to stop natural process of aging. This is exactly what you are doing with your Correct Narrative hunt.
Psychology is not a tool to correct other people who did not ask you for help. Psychology is not a tool to ashame and control other people.
This is exactly why there was anti-psychiatry movement in 1960s. Because mental health professionals at the time taught that there is certain ideal of what perfect mind should look like - and they tried to crop other people in order to fit in to the Correct Narrative. This does not work.
We are all different. We are not machines. We will make mistakes. We will make fool of ourselves. We can do everything perfectly, we can follow Correct Narrative but still fail and still not succeed.
It never occurred to you that also stupid and unpleasant people are wealthy and successful, have many friends? They do not follow Correct Narrative, they are rude, they are unpleasant, yet they go through life without problems and have success and money and friendships?
We cannot control life. We cannot control other people. Urge to control other people is cognitive distortion.
And as I actually learned through all this with you - I realized myself that urge to control and attain correct narrative is incorrect itself. It leads to anxiety, chronic worry, anxiety and freeze response.
I also realized thanks to my social anxiety that without social anxiety - I would also just like you - end up making fun of other people who have mental issues and mocking them. I would try to fix other people. I would have my imaginary fantasy idea about totally unrealistic correct narrative and try to impose it on others.
That is what Jordan Peterson is doing.
This chase for Correct Narrative is toxic. This is not healthy.
We are learned at school and in our childhood about Correct Narrative.
You are pleasant with people, you say thanks, please. You smile at people. You cooperate with people. That is correct narrative. It is simple and it teaches us to be civil.
Anything other than that is neurosis.
People who need psychology are people who are not realizing that they can make mistakes.
People who need psychology are people who notice that they freeze and can't handle life.
People who need psychology are people who never learned that they have psychology instructions inside themselves, and they can access it, they do not need other people to guide them and give them instructions how to lead and manage their lives.
Psychology is not a tool to ashame and control other people so that we shape and mold people into imaginary fantasy Correct Narrative.
I think this part to valuing ourselves is huge issue for people with SAD who have Complex Trauma as well.
Self compassion, being protective of ourselves - is impossible, I think, because we were programmed to believe we are not worthy. That belief makes us stuck in social anxiety loop.
It is belief that I am not good by default. That I am in the way, that I am not allowed to bother anyone, since there is something wrong by default inside me. That anything about myself is boring, unacceptable.
I also discovered that there is external factor that is also keeping social anxiety alive and that is toxic environment.. I am talking about pontificating people who try to mold and control other people, especially easy targets as ourselves (quiet, nice, open, silent, friendly types) into subservience and submission - so they will pinpoint our mistakes and try to explain us essentially some kind of Correct Narrative about how we suppose to be.
For example, we should not ask questions that don't make sense to us - otherwise we are fools.
We should not dress something differently - because we look stupid, or we have hidden agenda (?).
We should not be frank and honest because that makes them uncomfortable.
We should not protest when someone is rude because we are snowflakes.
So I am talking about environment where our actions, opinions and thoughts are examined, judged and molded and controlled - and we buy it. We believe that other people have absolute authority over life. I think this abolishing our own common sense and instinct as a way to become sycophant - that we get other people's love, approval and validation from them.
I think we do this in our heads too. We were programmed to believe that there is some imaginary high perfectionist standard to live in accordance to - and then we prune our thoughts, opinions and decisions, we monitor them and without realizing it, we produce chronic anxiety, chronic hypervigilance, panic attacks - by trying to achieve imaginary high standard of thinking, acting, doing that we think is Correct Narrative for life.
While the solution is so easy - it all comes down to love. Being able to accept ourselves as we are and not trying to control other people, not trying to mold our natural responses and common sense. We don't have to, we don't have to change ourselves in order to fit imaginary perfectionist standard of others of our own fantasy ideals. We have inner mechanism inside us, we can allow it to be as it is without interventions and pruning.
But this is also where it gets complex.
What happens when objectively or subjectively these people are someone you need for whatever objective or subjective reason (Maslow need)?
This is issue why we get stuck with toxic people.
From my own experience I am talking about bullies and mobbing.
What if our paycheck is dependent on people who are not meant for us?
Then we shut up. We obey and serve them. We create moral injury inside ourselves. We create social anxiety. Every inch of your body wants to react, defend yourself, tell it is wrong - but you shut up and you self-censor yourself so that you do not end up homeless.
Yeah - the correct way is to be frank and honest and speak the truth.
However,
In real life - people will stab in you the back because people can't handle the truth. It is too painful to be criticized in general. It hurts to be told what you were doing was wrong and you were a fool.
Some people will do cause you damage openly or covertly when you are honest and when you disagree with them.
People will influence and tell lies about you behind your back - so not only you will scare them you, they will drag others with them, people who do not know you.
In toxic and corrupt countries we see journalist being killed because they expose corruption. Or lawyers etc.
I think this keeps people stay stuck with toxic people and this keeps people silent and they endure unfair treatment from others.
This is repetitive unresolved theme for me - how to be honest and authentic when your basic livelihood (shelter and money) is dependent on you keeping silent and trying not to rock the boat?
To make it more complex, regarding the definition of "our standards",
I would guess the problem is higher IQ and higher social norms. Very intelligent people will notice so much errors and incorrect narratives around them. In the same time you can't not notice them - and if you do - you end up with anxiety and stress because it is bugging you. If you have higher communications skills you will notice so much errors in daily communication - if you react to every single of them you will drive everyone nuts, and yourself, too.
I dunno, I would use common sense. We cannot control other people. We cannot control life. I would be frank and honest and I can sugar coat my opinions that other people will personally experience as criticism. I would make distinction what can I tolerate. I would try to curb ego.centrism and before reacting to put myself in other person's shoes and try to understand what is going on first.
I also read his twitter thread and it makes sense what is wrong - he is using psychology to control other people instead of helping. He has imaginary fantasy idea how people should be and how life should be and tries to superimpose it on others.
"Look at other people"
Socially anxious people already look at other people.
"They don't know how to introduce themselves, no social skills, no one ever taught them how to introduce themselves"
This is incorrect information. People with social anxiety have high communication skills. Skills are not issue. This is myth. It looks like they don't have skills because they are experiencing panic. When you are in panic, there is amygdala hijacking and emotional dysregulation - your brain is not operating from cortex part of brain - so it appears as if there are no skills.
As psychologist he should know this. He should talk about this actually - but he takes biases and mental shortcuts.
"no one ever taught them how to behave"
This is red flag - right here - he thinks himself as a high superior authority what is the Correct narrative and Correct behaviour. He sees himself as superior being who is appointed by higher authority to morally police people around him into a mold of what people should behave.
There is no Correct Narrative. When you have one man broadcasting your instructions for live - this is narcissism. It is mental illness. You cannot control other people. Trying to control other people is cognitive distortion.
What would make him high authority to shape and mold and correct other people? Does he have a book or set of instructions about correct behaviour? Can we see it, or we have to pay for it on monthly basis? How does people who don't have social anxiety abide to these superior rules of behaviour? Did they learn it behind everyone's back?
"And so they're really good candidates for behavior therapy"
For paying and spending money to become perfect?
He is like rich specialist who tries to convince Hollywood celebrities into plastic surgery. In order to fit perfect imaginary fantasy ideal how person should look like- in the end they end up looking like plastic monsters.
"but most people aren't like that. They have the ability. They can talk quite well. WHY - because they look at them"
Totally wrong.
People with social anxiety look at other people - in fact they look at them already too close, they are zoomed into them. He does not know what social anxiety is, and he tries to force people to live by his unreasonable high standard fantasy world of ideal man.
People with social anxiety are already focused on other people, they scan every inch of other people around them, that is actually the social anxiety itself. So his advice is detrimental. IT only adds up to social anxiety.
Social anxiety is fear from criticism. It has nothing to do with talking and looking at people. You will not cure social anxiety if you learn how to talk well - in fact people will avoid you because they will find you boring and obnoxious since you appear as robot and machine. He tries to correct people into becoming a machine, that must monitor itself for mistakes and anything that might be defined as wrong in his Correct Narrative scheme.
"push your attention outward"
Yeah, socially anxious people do that. They are chronically aware of outward. They scan the environment. They look and perceive any detail in other people, they look for a threat of any minimal criticism. People with social anxiety are already chronically hyperalert of other people and every single detail on them. That is why they experience anxiety and panic attacks and all physical uncomfortable symptoms - because they have chronic external reference locus of control. Instead the solution is to put self worth back to ourselves. He does not talk about that - because his agenda is to control other people. He is teaching people to be a sheep, to have herd mentality. To listen onto him as shepherd, while all of us are sheep that we must look and correct ourselves in order to fit into his imaginary form, fantasy mold.
"reason is I am not paying attention"
Yes they do. Socially anxious people are paying attention a lot. They should not.
People with social anxiety went through complex trauma, childhood abuse, they were programmed into paying attention and observing other people as superior and placing self worth in other people. This is why they hunch their back and they do not look onto other people - because they went through North Korea dictatorship where you are a sheep and you are not allowed to look at superior people around you. You are aware of them but you are not allowed to interact with them because they will punish you. You are not allowed to talk because they will criticize you. That is social anxiety. It is not mild shyness that he is talking about here.
"pay attention" "Horus"
He is teaching people to be controlled by higher authority,
he is teaching people to develop social anxiety.
Horrible person, he is not psychologist, he need psychologist.
"It's rough"
Yeah, people with social anxiety do not know that life is rough. It's great that he scared us at the end , so that we are hypnotized by fears about life and to believe we are not able to deal and manage life - so we must look at others for guidance and his advice to correct and prune our personality and person into becoming his fantasy imaginary ideal.
He is horrible person. This is why he hates Trans people - because it does not fit into his imaginary fantasy narcissistic ego centric ideal of human being.
This is why he hates climate change Greta - because his comfort and his pollution is much more important than other people, his pleasure is the primary goal while in his mind other people are garbage that bother him.
Social anxiety makes us believe that other people hold the ultimate knowledge and instructions and set of abilities how to behave. We distrust ourselves, and we put our self worth in other people hands. And we distrust ourselves and we explain to ourselves our natural and normal mistakes as abnormal and proof of our ineptness. So we end up with crippling anxiety and panic attacks - and try to solve it by turning even more to other people for approval and validation and acknowledgment.
For people who still have issues with inner child (I see it as devil on the shoulder actually hehe) - I would simply accept it. I see being aware of it as great thing, since it breaks the spell and hypnosis and otherwise automatic responses.
Instead of trying to hide it or correct it, I would accept it as my persona. I know I am good and nice person and I would never hurt anyone and I know I have no evil agenda or strategy to hurt exploit or manipulate people - therefore I have nothing to fear when I am being myself.
Being afraid - but doing it anyway,
having shaking voice - but I would voice it out anyway even though it is shaking and it turns our weird,
having intrusive worries - without reacting to them, just let them float in my mind,
or
if I don't feel talking - I would not force talking since I understand that some people appear as friends but they simply collect personal data to use it against me later on. Perhaps it might be better not to get close to people whom I feel something is off and wrong - at intuition level wrong.
But also I would be aware that action is the healthy and correct way, so I would go against my fears if I know I need to do something. For example, having driving phobia - I would feel panic and fears not to drive, but in this case I would not allow my natural persona to decide - I know I have to force myself to drive instead of letting my natural instinct of fear deciding what to do.
I see it like some kind of weird ying yang balance between my panic, anxiety and fears that I try to incorporate in being active with my fears to be exposed, my panic to be exposed, I carry it along with me, instead of manically trying to get rid of it, or demanding myself to be clear of fears and setting myself to be be perfect before taking any action. I take my fears and anxiety along with myself for a ride - instead of putting them in closet as I would do before, hoping I can suppress them enough - they will never go away. They are intertwined with my personality now, they are my persona. I have to cooperate with them.
However Social Anxiety is a part of Complex Trauma, therefore it has manifold of other issues buried around and we are not even aware of it other than springing up as uncomfortable fear physical symptoms.
For example, some fears are connected to meeting your Maslow needs (shelter, finances, service, help, support etc) that you require from people - and then in order to keep safe you fawn and - develop social anxiety. You are afraid of their potential, real or imagined criticism.
Some social anxiety comes up from inside - belief that there is a certain appointed and approved way of living and acting and communicating and you try to achieve this superior fantasy correct narrative. It even gets to strict that with time it has nothing to do with other people directly.
Or social anxiety is relentless guilt. You do everything perfect, you ignore people - you do not see them as tribe urge to please - yet you feel guilty anyway if you stand up for yourself. It is because our body got programmed to release hormones and chemicals inside our body when we were verbally abused by toxic people when we were children, being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria that child's brain is unable to process other than internalizing toxic shame (believing you are inept as human being and unfit to live and manage life).
Yeah, we built imaginary audience in our head that we preemptively correct and manage our decisions through this prism of what someone might say, react, do or criticize about it. And we are not even aware our decisions are manipulated by fear of what other (imaginary) people may think about us.
However
I discovered that actually there is "external factor" - there are actually toxic people out there who sniff out this urge to please others, so they pick on our fears to manipulate us. Since we are good and kind - we observe people and events from our beliefs - we are not aware that there are manipulative people out there so we believe other people as if everyone is our personal friend who means well to us and we have to obey them and serve them as personal friend. Even though they might be total stranger. So yeah, there will be real situations where someone out there will, they will care to notice what we do. Then they will mock us. They will ashame us in order to control us. They will suck personal data from us and later use it to ashame us. And we attract toxic people like moth to a flame since we are silent, kind, nice, good, open - and they misinterpret this as weakness and easy target to exploit.
I see social anxiety as part of Complex Trauma. It is about being exposed to adult hysteria, relentless criticism 24/7 when we were growing up where child's brain was unable to process it other than internalizing toxic shame. For me, tools and techniques and concept that are mentioned in Complex Trauma helped me a lot. I learned about external reference locus of control (where I see and perceive other people as gods that I must obey - inferiority complex) and concept of amygdala hijacking - where I understand why I trigger, why I feel triggered and how my mood and thoughts are synthetic due to trauma.
Social anxiety is actually the opposite - it is being zoomed in other people in so much you even imagine other people criticizing you. Social anxiety is chronic fear from other people's criticism, what they think about you, what they notice wrong about you and your mistakes and flaws. You think about other people possible reaction way ahead of actual event. After the event is over - if nothing happened - you decide it was a fluke and non-important, and then you focus your intrusive worry on the next upcoming social event.
What you perceive as thinking too much about yourself comes as secondary after-effect. It is when you start to notice physical symptoms that are very uncomfortable - racing heart, sweat, confinement, feeling dread and panic. You try to resolve and solve these perceived dangers through PureOCD - intrusive worry and pessimism and you are stuck, like a car in a mud, you are pressing gas pedal but the wheels are spinning in the place. That seems on the surface as if you are thinking too much about yourself - while you are like in a horror movie when you try to start your car when villain is chasing you, but your car can't start. The villain is chasing you, your fears as because of external factor - it is not you or about you. It is not that you choose to be chased, it is your reality - other person's criticism and scrutiny or description of your mistakes feels like death treat, catastrophe and doom.
If you were correct, than socially anxious person would feel fear when alone - or when surrounded by trusting friends and warm people. But they do not, severe socially anxious people resolve their fears by isolation and withdrawal - because it is the only way to get to psychological safety.
In the end, this is why "social anxiety" have "social" word inside it. It is issue and problem related to social, it is about other people. It is about social situations.
Social anxiety is toxic shame, inner guilt - about anything you do or not do, so you try to resolve this guilt , which appears as if you are self centered.
Social anxiety is a part of Complex Trauma, being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when we were kids, being exposed to adult hysteria when we were growing up, and child is unable to process mentally ill people around them in any other way other than internalizing toxic shame.
You are one of those people who "solved" social anxiety by narcissism and toxic shaming other people.
"embarrass you"
But can you explain who is the person who is defining what is embarrassing? Who is the ultimate person or authority to direct and order people what is Correct Narrative?
People with social anxiety are afraid of being embarrassed. You simply covered up your social anxiety. Your discovery that you can solve social anxiety by treating other people as garbage and attack them as soon as they disagree with you is dysfunctional. It is ego-centric also, since you are irritated and unable to handle different opinion. Cognitive dissonance is too painful to you.
Social anxiety is multiple issue - it is not only one aspect that you can say it is social anxiety, it is very complex.
But in the end it comes down to lack of love.
We internalized toxic shame and we think we are inept to live and manage life.
Some people, like you - solve this dilemma by attacking others and talking to them as if they are crap, in order to cover up your ingrained toxic shame.
Others, people like me, actually do the opposite, we develop external reference locus of control and we seek approval and validation from other people. So before I was aware of external validation I would feel hurt by rude comment from people like you.
Now I know you have toxic shame and you cover it up by attacking other people.
Yes, we can be embarrassed. We can be wrong. We can allow ourselves to make fool our ourselves. We are human beings, we will make fool of ourselves. We will embarrass ourselves and it is fine, it is ok. We do not want to hurt anyone, we do not want to cause someone pain, we have no evil agenda - so we can talk freely and honestly and authentically even if we are wrong.
You still have social anxiety because you do not allow yourself to be wrong. You do not allow others to be wrong. You are afraid of being embarrassed so you project it on people who do not agree with you. So your advice to focus on other people is not functional.
You cannot control other people. Urge to control other people is cognitive distortion.
We cannot control life. Bad things will happen.
Sometimes we can do everything perfect, we can do everything that is correct and not embarrassing - and still fail.
But that is ok, there is nothing wrong with being wrong, mistaken.
We were raised by strict toxic people in our childhood and now we believe we must be perfect and never embarrass ourselves.
That false belief is social anxiety.
But take minute and think about what you just said.
Why resolve? Why issue? You are giving it the power and you put yourself in inferior position, you are giving it energy of some great superior force that is beyond your capabilities to care.
You say taking attention into others - but this is narcissism. You are perceiving other people as a tool, as an object you use for your own selfish purposes. You are perceiving other people as something that will help you now, but you will throw it off when not needed.
Social anxiety and social anxiety symptoms are normal reaction to abnormal situation, abnormal people and abnormal events. Our brain resolved trauma and stress by balancing between our personality and mentally ill, toxic people who caused our moral injury. If you resolve it, you are putting yourself in a position to further immature ego defense mechanisms. You will make yourself to be people pleaser, pushover who is afraid of being embarrassed - since you see other people as solution to your personal problems. Or in your case, you will see and perceive other people as solution by degrading them and mocking them so you can claim your superiority to solve toxic shame inside.
Solution to social anxiety is to accept that we can be weak, wrong and embarrassed. Don't involve other people into it. You cannot use, abuse and manipulate other people in order to control your own moods and emotions. It will not work. Other people are human beings, they deserve respect - they are not objects you put down and mock in order for you to feel good about yourself. In the same way, we have to respect ourselves too. We can accept our flaws, mistakes and negative traits that we do not like. Anything other than love is path to pathology and narcissism.
My blog is uncensored thoughts about social anxiety. It is not meant to be a novella or regular blog.
I do not use drugs or any mind altering substances.
Thank you for your observations
I do have a plenty of air activities.
But in the end, I am not important here.
"along with you totally missing tons of intra-verbal and contextual signals from others"
But you do the exactly same things.
Again, you have some strict rules how people should behave, how people should think. This is too restrict for you, too. You are saying I am doing it, but you have moral police in your head - and you use this police to execute moral law in other people, too.
This is not the purpose of psychology.
People are human beings - they are suppose to make biases and logical fallacies. It is impossible to be perfect, our mind is not built to be perfect. This part you can't accept. I would focus on this area. Why are you so afraid to be mistaken, weak, wrong, ashamed?
Since I find CPTSD all things about social anxiety felt into place. It helped me tremendously, I found answers I have been searching for 30 years. I learned concept such as external reference locus of control - something I think you struggle with.
You put your self worth in some impossible high standard of living and you demand you must meet those standards - never making mistake, conducting "normal" thoughts, behaving in a Correct Narrative. I guess you think you will control life if you achieve this perfection. Nope, the side effect is inner critic, anxiety, panic attacks - and you start to impose these standards on other people which can lead to ashaming them.
We will never achieve Correct Narrative, we are not gods. We were not suppose to reach Correct Narrative. We can strive for it, we can learn about it, but if we set this as our ultimate goal - you will miss living and you will make your life to be hell for you and people around you.
---
HE is missing empathy. That is why he cannot understand many concepts, issues and phenomena.
People are not agreeable because they do not know what they want.
Some of them went through trauma - they were programmed to be subservient and to fawn, to people please to be pushover, to trauma bond, seek self worth in external reference locus of control. Therefore it is not the matter of want of need - it is hypnosis into serving other people.
Disagreeable person - also does not know what he want. Disagreeable person are usually dumb, low IQ, they are babies trapped in grown man's body - just as Peterson: they are ego-centric. They do not know what they want because they do not use their brain, they run on instinct, their primitive part of brain, id - is running the show. If you really set those people down and perform therapy on them, you would find out they have no idea who they are, what their persona is - it is simply bunch of flesh that has ability to walk, eat, re-produce and use bathroom. They have no idea they have cortex part of brain inside, it is not active, it is not activated.
"Agreeable people" - he is talking about fawning.
Being agreeable has it's good sides. Fawn is trauma response - survival mechanism to live with a psychopath, sociopath, mentally ill person, someone like Peterson who is stubborn and creates a fantasy world where he is the ultimate giver of Correct Narrative - and other people should be his servants and followers without disagreement.
Agreeable is how we form friendships, it is diplomacy, it is empathy - ability to see and understand the other person viewpoints and taking it into consideration.
So what he is doing is teaching young easily impressionable young people how to be jerk.
The problem is what happens when you meet another jerk? Who is stronger and more psychopathic than you? He is literally destroying all positive and progressive achievements of Western world - and he is regressing it into poor, corruptive Eastern Europe mentality of hate, wars, Balkanizations - just for the King of the Hill competition and crab mentality.
He is creating the world that would look like Homer Simpsons sperm - giants heads that are rushing and runing around and bumping into each other with their giant heads. They have no idea where they are going - they are just hysterical and so egoist that their heads are the only important thing in the world.
"not to be exploited"
Yeah, he is narcissist. HE is observing world and people as an animal cage, where others are predators, so you must become monster yourself. What does not work with this picture is that you cannot become psychopath just for the sake of succeeding in life. What you become instead is passive aggressive wimp who is exploiting easy targets: people who are kind, nice, tolerant, quiet, silent, introverted. This is what makes Peterson dangerous. He is instructing young impressionable men to become bullies, pathetic wimps who are hitting weaker, or what they define as weak.
"not good strategy, it will not go away, you have to talk the truth"
Oh interesting, and what happened to University that Peterson sued because University spoke the truth?
He is speaking one thing and in real life he is doing totally opposite, since his words do not work in real life, he is ideologist, he is talking fantasy and unrealistic advice.
In reality, there is always someone who will get back to you - in the ways you have no idea or you can't comprehend. There are people who are not honest, who do not follow unwritten social rules and who resort to crime and violence. So yeah, sometimes agreeable is life-saver.
In reality, you cannot talk truth to narcissist - since he is not perceiving you as human being and will never listen to you.
In reality, there are manipulative people who appear as your friend, but they only collect personal data that they will exploit later.
"to view viewpoint of person opposing to you"
Again, he is instructing us, as CBT, to observe people as if whatever a person say, act, do - is ultimate truth. As if people do not lie. As if people do not wear masks. AS if people do not have hidden agenda. As if people do not have hidden ill will towards others. With statements like this he is hypnotizing his audience into being pushover. He is talking as if we have to trust other people and soak every information as ultimate truth. This is what makes him dangerous, he is spreading mental illness. We cannot trust other people 100%. Some people are not honest. Some people are not aware that they are deluding themselves. Some people are not aware they believe in their own lies. People are finicky, they change their viewpoints - it is not fixed. Therefore his advice is detrimental, wrong and untrue. Freud discovered 100 years ago that we only see tip of an iceberg, there is so much hidden beneath the surface. And here we have "expert" and higher authority Peterson that is instructing us that we must take everything from other people at face value and even observe is as something helpful, as an instruction. He is setting us up to be pushover in video where he is talking to us how not to be pushover!
"they will tell you how to see world in ways you don't see it"
Well Sherlock, we do not need other people to do that. Socrates taught us long time ago that we can say "I don't know nothing" - and this sets us up to see world in ways we don't see it. We have inner mechanism, inner motor, inner guidance - but Peterson is setting us up for external reference locus of control. He wants our self worth and focus to be in the external.
What he is trying is to lower ego.centrism - but he is doing the opposite. This is because he have no clue about psychology. Because he has some serious issues with psyche himself.
"extroverted person has ability to be in social world that is not natural to you"
Jesus Christ. No, they have no spectacular or better or superior skills. We do not need to change our skills. What he is talking here is he is hypnotizing us into becoming inferior. He tells us that we lack some unknown skills and we must look onto other people to learn these mysterious skills that will do something magical if we learn them. of course, it is impossible to learn them by one look, so we have to become onlookers and servants to other people to learn this fantastic magical skills that do ..what? What will these skills do? He is making us mentally ill. He is telling us that there is something wrong with us and we have to change it. He is literally selling us story that we are ugly and we must underwent countless plastic surgeries to become plastic monster and spend time, energy and money on saviours like this quack.
His instructions here are path to be and become neurotic, pushover and inferior.
"You can use these to improve you toolkit"
Well, what if my toolkit is perfectly fine? What if I am ok as person - with all mistakes, with all undone about me, with all imperfections? What then? If you tell me that there is something wrong and that there is some magical answer outside of me - you are controlling me. You are toxically ashaming me into being inferior, neurotic and pushover - because you expect me to give up myself, and seek external salvation from right-wing, corrupt, alcoholic quacks.
"if you are extroverted you should shut up"
"if you are introverted you should speak up"
Maybe you should shut up, Peterson. People are not your toys. You cannot manage other people. You cannot change other people. You cannot control other people. The only problem here is tyranny of shoulds. He is trying to activate inner critic in us. That we should be this, we should be that - this intrusive worry look once activated - is setting one's mind to be neurotic, pushover and inferior. Again, message after message - he is hypnotizing his audience into subservience and mental instability. He tries to take away individual power and by toxic shame he is teaching us to develop external reference locus of control - to make us into sheep, groupthink -thus we are easily controlled by media and corrupt politicians who are probably paying him to speak these psycho garbage.
Just horrible person.
In order not to be pushover - since we have not learned it from this quack - I will say it.
It is not nuclear physics neither I do not need to explain it quickly so your mind is unable to process it other than his basic message that there is something wrong with us and we need quacks to save us.
To not be pushover - we have to understand we were programmed to be pushover in our strict childhood, probably my mentally ill people - hysterics and alcoholics like Peterson.
That is step one: it is not our fault. There is nothing to be ashamed about. It is program, hypnosis from childhood by toxic environment.
Second - it is to accept ourselves as we are. If we are kind, nice, tolerant, we do not have ill wish, we do not want to hurt anyone, we are not selfish, we do not have some hidden agenda to exploit other people - then we can accept ourselves - and speak the truth, being authentic, being honest. Speaking the truth, our deep opinions, our inner beliefs - that is all. There is nothing else to it. We do not have to be strong. We do not have to cover our flaws or be ashamed of them, we do not need to cover up our mistakes, we just simply speak the truth.
Others - mostly mentally ill people - will try to ashame us into submission and under their control. They will pick and point at our mistakes in order to silence us. Again, if we have no ill will we can speak and voice out the elephant in the room - something that is obvious and nobody talks it out.
I would make notice why people do not trust themselves.
They believe something is inheritable intrinsically wrong with them, as if they are damaged goods, that they are boring, stupid, ugly - they are convinced to be wrong by default - toxic shame.
I see as this is connected to CPTSD trauma - where we were programmed to believe we are wrong and other people are correct - external reference locus of control.
I also see this connected to shaming from others. Other people control us by shaming us.
They pick and point at our flaws, mistakes and mock or throw temper tantrum at us - the same way we were programmed into inferiority as kids.
I see this shame concept and moral police as an effective way to hypnotize and control other people - by marketing, by politicians, corrupt and manipulative people. This is why this message in video is important, it is literally our immune system, building our immunity up.
"The reason you don't trust yourself is you have allowed yourself to listen to other people or to listen to yourself saying "Well, it might not work"."
I have noticed that criticism and ashaming is not the only tool of controlling other people into low self esteem.
IT comes also in a form of "help" - like someone explaining us that we are not good enough and we have to pay them to fix us. Instead of explaining we are great and amazing - and I can brush it up - if I want to - they explain us that we have to or should change something. That I would be ok even if I do not have these additional brush ups that they try to explain about.
8 months later and I've gathered more information about this topic.
Perhaps someone will benefit from this:
- document it. If someone acts "funny" - start writing it down. Reacting as monster back to them - they will use is against us, because they are successful at making themselves as victim. Just look at Weinstein as he appeared with crutches in the court, they all do. They appear as invalid in order to suck sympathy from the crowd ,they act as monsters when free - but when faced with crimes they will act as victim.
- Be transparent and speak the truth. They use toxic shame in order to control other people. They will nag, complain and criticize because they found out that most people will be quiet and feel embarrassed - they are abusing unwriten social etiquette against us who are normal and who observe these unwritten laws of behaviour. They rape our kindness. So voice out the elephant in the room. Something that is obvious to everyone but nobody mentions it. We do not mention if because we want to be kind and nice. But talking about truth is not bad. It is not unkind. If we do it without explosions and wars, without hysteria and Karen - we can speak what it truth. We do not want ill wish to anyone, we don't have evil agenda against anyone - so as Shakespeare had said: Be just and Fear not
- Also what I discovered in the mean time is concept of yin and yang in human behaviour. This means what we fight we make it persist. How to fight monster without becoming monster ourselves? We become what we hate.
Therefore - if something has happened in the past - forgive them. Let it go. Don't let it fester inside our mind - this way we make it alive and they still hurt us. This does not mean we do not react in the future to similar abuse. But if we are at peace that there are jerks out there, paradoxically they will not bother us. In the same time we won't put unnecessary Sisyphus' rock, we won't be Atlas with weight on our shoulder.
It is about dualism - in the same time we label bad people as toxic people, but in the same time we understand that toxic people do not exist. They are allowed to be toxic - we cannot control them. We are not gods. And our ego is not important; Law of Jante - will allow us that hurt and pain that they cause us will not hurt us as much. We simply see ourselves as dead dog - nobody beats the dead dog. Our weapon is voice. When someone is rude - we are allowed to speak back. Especially us who are HSP, intelligent and silent - we look observe and analyze already every our move in order to appear good and not hurtful. Therefore, we do not deserve to take abuse, we are not arrogant, we are not without empathy, we do not have ill intentions.
- Also one concept that I learned is external reference locus of control where I put my self worth in other people - so I give other people power to control my mood, I match my worth based on their approval and emotions. IF they are angry or display irritation I take blame and I try to fix it. Instead of this trauma bonding and seeking validation approval from others, I can put self worth back where it belongs - to myself, my intrinsic values
- And if I still feel guilty - this is due to Complex Trauma, where my body is programmed to release chemicals and hormones that regulate my mood: if I need to stand up for myself I will feel panic attack. Before, I thought this panic attack is sign I am weak and inferior and I would buy into this explanation. Now - I know this is hypnosis from dysfunctional childhood where I was exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria which child brain is unable to process other than internalizing toxic shame.
This means I will feel guilty even when I do the right thing - when I speak the truth (without drama and hysteria and explosions).
This guilty is part of hypnosis. It will try to make me fawn and people please and be pushover, just as I learned with CPTSD.
Now when I know this guilt is mechanical reaction of trauma - I can ignore it and observe it as PureOCD, it is hallucination.
Ok.
I disagree with this approach. People's fears and anxieties and neurosis is intertwined with their personalities. It serves them purpose.
Without tit they do not have any other protective measures. This is what CBT is doing.
What person will do - is they will develop some another narrative, assumptions and feelings that are non-functional.
The better approach is to allow people to be whatever they are now and use all those fears, anxieties, fawn strategies into their advantage by trusting their own resources, mind, decision and options - even if they are wrong and mistaken.
As we all know psychiatrist will never tell you what you need or must do. They will never teach you what is correct way of everyday living.
My content and your content are not so much different. This what you are doing is all part of social anxiety. Your strategy itself is social anxiety, too. I tried myself to catch those loops in 1996 - it only brought me more fears and anxieties and panic attacks - since now I am acutely aware that my thinking is wrong.
And just because I disagree with you - it doesn't give you right to analyze me. That is simply unethical and unkind. Especially if someone doesn't ask you to fix them.
That is all I have to say here.
I think we are finished.
And it never occurred to you that I might have been fawn before? And that my social anxiety blog strategy is working better than your PureOCD cather in the loop strategy?
So your "correct narrative" perception of fawn person is that fawn people have some mysterious hidden agenda of brilliant strategy - but if they do not appease you, if they do not fawn over you, then in your eyes they have some psychological issues to resolve? So whatever someone does says or act - it is always something, there is no approval from you.
How you talk to me - you are showing your audience how you will talk with them if they get out of fawn loop:
You will ashame them, you will pick their narrative, you will invent psychological issues that they have and you will curse them. That is exactly what keeps fawn people in fawn loop - people like you who are ashaming them and thus controlling them into being obedient and subservient to you.
I disagree with you.
I disagree with your strategy and the way you are communicating with people. That is all.
I am not controlling you. I am not ordering you what to do. I am not asking you to fix me. And I do not need your help.
Goodbye Sir.
What I noticed in myself, I never allowed myself to feel anger, it in fact started to come up only when I entered in my 30ties, when I started slowly to come out of my avoidance shell (being at home all the time whenever I am not at work).
So fight response is foreign to me and uncharted territory. My default trauma reaction I feel comfortable with is Fawn and Freeze (on most cases not even flight).
What I learned that when I start to talk honestly and authentically and without self-censorship - that this turns into fight and anger because I was convinced that if I speak my mind it must come out as explosions and hysteria and drama and Karen. As if I can't speak the truth and voice out elephant in the room without argument, just being transparent instead and being objective, describing what is going on.
I found twitter as great tool to brush these skills how to deal with arguments (when I state my honest opinion and someone attacks me for it) and turn arguments into communication and Glasser's habits: negotiation instead of nagging/complaining.
That bugs me and I learned - it is best to forgive them. Anything that happened in the past and that I can't do anything about it - no matter how unfair - it is best to forgive them intentionally and whole kindheartedly without any drawbacks or crossed fingers. This does not mean I support them, this does not mean I approve them or whatever they did - it means I forgive them totally.
I learned this is the only way to release resentment and grudge and pouting. When I hold onto the grudge - they keep on triggering me, their abuse is still active and alive and I have to stop that. I learned that total forgiveness is the only way out of this loop.
Paradoxically, forgiveness is very cruel and explosive and the best revenge - since I erase them from my life totally. They no longer exist in my mind. They do not longer habituate my thinking process and spring up whenever I am triggered or in similar situation that might bring them along with flashbacks. They would otherwise control my mood. They would still have power how I feel and destroy my happiness and well being - simply by thinking about them and all unfairness and aggression that they caused.
This does not mean I will shut up and self-censor myself in the future when I might meet someone similar to them.
By forgiving them I release them into oblivion - this is something that is amazing and brilliant. In my mind they are nothing. That is the best revenge.
Yes, but I noticed in my case that I feel guilt (and toxic shame) in cases when I do something right and correct. For example I speak up my opinion without hurting anyone - and someone objects me - I feel guilty and I try to fawn and people please. I feel guilt. I did nothing wrong, but I feel guilty.
I learned this is complex trauma programming - I was exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when growing up, being exposed to adult hysteria when child's brain was unable to process it other than internalizing toxic shame and this guilt - whatever I do, I feel guilty. (Similar to Pet Shop Boys song "It's a Sin" hehe)
"Consequence=conscience violated or might not even feel worthy of being human""
In my case neither, at least not on the surface. When I get into intrusive worry which is guilt it is more like being trapped in prison. I learned this is due to chemicals and hormones being released in my body due to programming from complex trauma - just like Pavlovian dogs being trained or circus animal.
I feel like I am hypnotized into feeling guilty. I learned to resolve this guilt by fawning, self-censorship and people pleasing in order to calm down the other person so they do not criticize me - in the end they treat me as garbage - but I never voice it out : "Don't treat me as garbage or I will treat you the same way" for example.
Yeah, in my case guilt is hypnosis. There are no intrusive worry commands or notion what I did wrong exactly, it is like as if I have veil over my face and I can't see clearly. Or gaze over my face where I no longer feel competent to act, think or have opinion - other than external reference - putting my self worth or as you call it "moral compass— an internal rudder" onto other person, who is usually verbally abusing me, criticizing me or expecting me to perform certain action that I do not feel perfect to perform, or simply someone ashaming me.
"guilt is I did something, shame is I am something"
This is extremely interesting. It is neither in my case.
Yeah, in my case this is fuzzy and undefined, at least in the moment where someone ashames me. It appears as hypnosis and veil over my face. I have no idea what I did wrong and in the same time I do not feel anything shameful about myself since my self worth is located in external reference locus of control, it is placed in other person - that I must fix, please and do everything that this other potentially abusive person might harm me that I satisfy them and serve them, that I am subservient to them, that I fawn to them and keep silent, not protest them or voice out the elephant in the room.
Later on, when the event is over - yeah I can analyze myself and I would find what I am guilty and ashamed about. I feel guilty for making mistake or not knowing what to do in that moment, what was expected from me by abusive person. Also I feel inferior and unworthy and incompetent - but again - these are all surface level labels that may not be true at all - since there is concept called Freud's Tip of an iceberg.
I think shame and guilt in people who are unable to define shame and guilt at that very particular moment when it is happening is hypnosis. It is not psychological. I mean - it has nothing to with someone's inferiority or fawning or codependency. This is pure hypnosis here.
For people who went Complex Trauma (CPTSD) we were hypnotized into feeling guilt and shame - and later as adults we label this as plethora of psychological diagnosis which some of them might be even detrimental.
I would say resolution to guilt and shame is mature love as you said - but love means not abandoning myself. It means standing up for myself. To trust and love myself even if I am mistaken, wrong, if I do not know something, even if I am not perfectionist. And to voice it out then someone is ashaming me - when someone expect me to be perfectionist and mocking me and demanding me something impossible to do. I do not need to explode or by hysteric, I can simply voice out the elephant in the room without drama. I do not do that when I feel guilt and shame. I shut up, I fawn, I people please and I am pushover, I try other person to calm down by my own behaviour, by destroying my identity and personality, by smothering my honest opinions and my moral code. Instead I can speak out that I disagree with someone without argument.
So I see guilt and shame being connected to silence, shutting up and self-censorship.
"We want people to feel the weight of what they've done, so they know they were wrong"
In my case no, my solution to guilt and shame was people pleasing, self-censorship and keeping quiet. To not the rock the boat.
There are manipulative people out there who appear as our friends but they only exploit us and abuse personal data they gathered about us. Borderliners do this as their strategy.
And some people are simply dumb and lack information about psychology concepts, they lack empathy - and they will cross boundaries - and will never stop if no one tells them what they are doing. They will interpret our silence and need for peace as green light for them to continue their abuse, bullying and dysfunctional communication and actions.
Guilt and shame does not allow us to speak up. At least, good and kind and nice people who value cooperation and peace and who follow unwritten social etiquette. Well, many people violate unspoken social rules. They will exploit and abuse other people's space for their own pleasure.
People with guilt and shame automatically shrink themselves - and abusive people will gladly exploit this extra space. The only way to stop it is communication with them - voicing out the elephant in the room, without wars, without explosions, without drama and being Karen.
I see forgiving as excellent tool to deal with past transgressions and everything toxic we experienced in our past. It is the only tool to eliminate resentment and thus puff out in oblivion all toxic people who would otherwise still hurt us in our mind through intrusive worry and through rumination about what happened and how they cause us pain. They would still have power over my mood, my emotions and memories of them would dysregulate me. Here I see total and hard forgiveness as excellent way to break the spell of rumination and endless worry.
Yeah, it is important to note that "abuser" is often not out right psychopath. They come in a form of borderliner - someone who appears as "friend" to us who throw temper tantrums here and there or try to control our opinions and actions by their anger and unreasonable and unrealistic standards.
I love intro:
"Abuser twist your reality, make unacceptable situations acceptable to you. Like they are no big deal. Or they might not even happening. They try to make you feel like problem is you. You cause problem by even questioning about it.
You wanting something better than what you are getting. "
About
Nice guy - setting boundaries, not taking sh*t.
I learned this is fawning in Complex Trauma. It is not choice. What books like "nice guy" and similar concept tells us that we have to become different person and throw temper tantrums and be rude and angry.
I see this approach non functional.
It is super simple - just being honest, talking truth, not self-censoring ourselves, voicing out the elephant in the room. It is not about conflict for the sake of conflict as books "No more nice guy" tell us in their books. It will not work, since people pleasing is not choice. It is trauma. It is hypnosis, it is programming. We were programmed like circus animal to perform fawn automatically. We were programmed to behave like Pavlovian dogs - instead of whistle, our trigger is someone ashaming us, criticizing us, nagging and complaining over something that is impossible and unrealistic. The programming and hypnosis push us into being pushover, being people pleaser and fawning. We set our self worth in the hands of another person, external reference locus of control - that is what people pleasing is, to accommodate another person because this is learned lesson from our dysfunctional childhood. Learned helplessness.
Glasser tells us that communication habits that are healthy involve negotiation. Not criticizing or nagging or complaining or threats. Nice guy self help books suggest exactly that - to be threatening and rude and yelling and screaming into manhood. Nope, this only leads to hysteria and being Karen.
We can voice out elephant in the room, being transparent and objective without drama and hysteria and wars and without explosions.
This part is tricky - the reaction of other people. Others will scream and throw temper tantrums when we express our opinion that is honest and without hidden agenda. And this is where hypnosis gets triggered - we feel guilt and shame - and then we shut up, we do not know how to deal with this imposed and implanted guilt and shame - other than shutting up and being a nice guy. Therefore, nice guy is much more complex. It is complex Trauma itself.
Then we can be aware of people who abuse our telling the truth and being frank - and being aware of toxic people who abuse and use and manipulate it as a tool to ashame us and thus control us. Borderliners and narcissists will get exposed like that. They will try to look and appear themselves as pontificators, and Crusaders. This manipulation of truth works thought guilt and toxic shame - this is how others control us and hypnotize us into people pleasing, seeking approval, trauma bonding and fawning, being pushover.
"Normal" and healthy person would not abuse other people as objects and control them. Controlling other people is cognitive distortion.
We'll fall into the trap of shame and guilt only if we shut up and self-censor ourselves, so being objective, transparent and voicing out the elephant in the room - even when others are throwing temper tantrums - is the key. Telling the truth.
This part I have issue with.
This part is tricky.
On one side: Robert Greene said people are simply phenomena, observe them.
Trying to control other people is cognitive distortion.
This makes sense - since if we put restriction on what bothers me about other people, where is the limit?
I may be sensitive, I may have Complex Trauma, I may be intelligent, there may be plethora of reason about why I get annoyed by other people - why would I voice it out every time? It is nagging and complaining. Also if I do not allow in other people to be themselves, I will put incredible pressure on myself - I will restrict my own behaviour, I will choke myself by putting restrictions and obligations and rules upon other people.
One another argument is Borderline people: they do this, they expect other people to conform to them and they put unreasonable standards of living upon others, that others are suppose to change themselves in order to suit them.
Also, it means I have ego size of the mountain, thinking other people are suppose to serve me and obey me and my wants and needs, this is the road to narcissism.
On the other side:
If I shut up and self-censor myself other people will abuse me. Many people are not abusers. They are just clutzes as one famous psychologist called them. People are not evil, he said. People are not aware that they are parasiting over kind, nice, silent, quiet people. So the only way to stop it is to voice it out.
AT what point I should tell people how to be respectful if I have social anxiety and everything bothers me - and when I have trauma bonding and external reference locus of control - where I place my self worth in other people hands - therefore I will not know and I will not be able to define what I like, want, need and what is respectful to begin with.
"You will attract, by your passivity, wrong kind of people"
Yep. I like what you said: 'I am taking up as little space as possible'.
I knew I have issues with people pleasing and being pushover. But I never ever noticed until couple of weeks ago how I actually do this. Exactly this sentence you said "taking up as little space" - yes, I do that. In shopping mall when I place product at cashier, I noticed I unconsciously take as little space as possible, I crouch myself as far as I could nearest to the cash, in order for the person behind me can have space- and what happens next is that person behind me takes up my space. I end up without having place to put all the products on the track. I was so shocked to notice I was doing this! It all went undetected, I never stopped and I was never able to see this and observe it and notice it. It was also shocking to know I probably do this people pleasing stuff in other areas of my life, too and I am totally unaware of it. It never occurred to me that I can just simply put products on the furthes part of track and then stack it as I go. I think this is Complex trauma - something I learned about this year only. I was programmed to serve and be obeying and afraid of someone potential criticism, that someone would complain and label me as selfish or even physically attack me for taking my space when they think it is their space.
"It feels too much, but it is not, you are not used to it"
In my case, I noticed this "too much feeling" when I do stand up for myself is guilt. It is part of hypnosis, being conditioned in childhood to fawn and people please. Guilt kicks in and I feel bad about myself, and I go back to fawning in order to regulate my emotions by other people's approval and validation - or them simply not being angry or criticizing.
"Assertive means being firm but polite, it can be in soft tone. Or in neutral tone. Compromising."
In my case this was impossible because I did not know the concept of "external reference locus of control", trauma bonding and external validation. Due to toxic shame, I felt inept and I see and observe other people as gods, automatically, without even thinking about it, I put myself in inferior position while other people whatever they say, act or do - or even I preemptively try to please them - because I put my self worth in other people.
---
This is where it gets complex:
1) if I am programmed (due to trauma) to believe that I speaking the truth is impolite - I will feel tremendous guilt and shame for being frank
and
2) other people who are narcissists, toxic, exploitative and manipulative - they will label me as impolite for simply speaking the truth and not shutting up and self-censoring myself.
This is where it gets even more complex:
what if I due to Maslow need (attaining shelter, security, help, service, finances) I threaten the loss of it - by being frank. I am talking about tyrants and toxic people who can't take no for an answer.
This is why people are polite and why they do not assert their power. They have some mentally ill person, lunatic and psychopath in their midst. It may be in their childhood so it is now programmed belief to repeat the same politeness and self censorship in the adulthood - which is detrimental, because our people pleasing and being pushover will get exploited by manipulators. Toxic people will parasite over our kindness, niceness, being silent and quiet. And in that case, yeah - we should be less polite - because in our mind being polite means being quiet and silent and not voicing out the elephant in the room.
But I would say this is limited advice. Perhaps we live in corrupt country where you can't get job at the whim - whenever you want to abandon abusive relationship - at home or at work.
It would end up with dilemma - either speak the truth or be homeless.
There are people out there who can't stand the truth, cognitive dissonance and they will use their power to destroy other people when other people are honest to them. That is also part of the story that should be included in this advice.
Guilt is hypnosis itself.
Therefore, it will not go away just by wishing not even being aware of it. It may perhaps even become more harder to chase away, since now I am aware of this intrusive feeling.
I would try another approach.
Either - logically thinking who defines being embarrassed - it is imaginary audience in my head? Or is there a living person who is accusing me of something bad? In both cases I can confront it logically: what makes them god to put pontification rules over us? What gives them right to judge us to be wrong? Do they have a special book of instruction about life?
IF we are nice, kind, if we care and if we have empathy, if we do not have evil agenda, if we do not wish to hurt or exploit other people - there is absolutely no reason to feel guilty.
It is imposed emotions, implanted by other people who try to control us.
Therefore - if we feel guilty over nothing - it is clear indication there is a toxic person who is gaslighting us into subservience and submission. The contact should be cut. Or if not possible - plan to go away as soon as possible. If the person is not physically dangerous (aggressive maniac) - I would confront them. I would speak my mind, without self-censorship. When we are silent and kind and nice - we are giving our power to other people who are narcissists and manipulative.
Glasser said that healthy communication habits are negotiation, not nagging or complaining neither criticizing nor forcing into submission.
What he defines as suffering is not what we know by experience what is suffering.
In his mind, suffering means loving someone - it means abolishing his narcissism and that is very painful for him. For him act of love is suffering. That is what he meant but he lacks deep psychology training to define what exactly he is feeling (as all of us).
To him it will be suffering to listen to someone. To him it will be suffering to not observe other people as object to use and throw off in garbage after they're done. To him it will be suffering to stay off the toxic tools he abuses. That's what he meant.
Again, what you define as suffering?
Can we first all define what suffering means for all of us?
For him, having empathy and thinking about others and placing himself in other person's shoes is suffering.
For him it it is suffering to let go of his ego, that is very painful to narcissist.
For him it is suffering to admit he is wrong, since he feels wrong inside due to toxic shame.
To us who are HSP, suffering is when someone is yelling at us, throwing temper tantrums and when someone ashames us. Totally different kind of suffering.
Yep, it is literal as that.
We are not inept. We are not worthless. These are delusions we believe in to be true.
3 weeks later and I discovered even more.
I feel like CERN that is keep discovering smaller and smaller particles that are made of our reality.
I discovered that once we realize toxic shame is hallucination - we are left with guilt. It is the guilt that is producing these uncomfortable feelings that I am not ok.
Guilt that is paradoxical since I've done nothing wrong, yet I feel guilt.
I learned this is also a body thing - hormones and chemicals inside are instructed and trained to rise when I for example stand up for myself. I think we were trained like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals to release these stress chemicals inside us in order to be subservient and silent - to bask in toxic shame.
I am talking about:
Oxytocin.
Dopamine.
Cortisol, Adrenaline and Norepinephrine.
Serotonin. (Serotonin is a hormone that regulates mood.)
I realized this guilt is also a way of hypnosis, with the goal for me ti shut up and self-censor myself. Toxic shaming of others is a way to control other people: pontificating them, pointing out their mistakes or flaws.
I would stand by my statement that seem true to me yet very shocking:
if we feel toxic shame - it is a clear indication there is a mentally ill person in our midst - very close to us, right now or definitely in childhood when we were growing up.
We did not learn this toxic shame and guilt and feeling inept and worthless by ourselves. Someone instructed and programmed us to feel this shame. I am talking about Complex Trauma here.
We were taught that we do not matter, that we have to take care of others while we are stupid, dumb, silly and not allowed to make mistakes. Being criticized 24/7 and being exposed to adult hysteria when child's brain is unable to process it other than developing immature ego defense mechanisms.
Now as adults we get triggered - and thus dysregulated, so toxic shame and guilt are keep rising up. Our body through chemicals and hormones are like Vichy traitors inside us that work against ourselves, our moral judgement - and we experience moral injury.
I see being honest, voicing out the elephant in the room, expressing our opinion, not shutting up, no self-censorship as way out of toxic shame. Being on par with other people. Toxic shame makes us feel inferior. We place our self worth in other people hands - which is external reference locus of control.
I see putting back our self worth where it belongs - to ourselves, believing in ourselves and our resources to handle and manage life - instead of seeking approval from others and trauma bonding with others, seeking validation from others.
Being triggered by certain things, people, events, situations - it is like PTSD.
Alone time will not help, since our thoughts will trigger us into worry and expecting sudden and unprovoked attack.
In my case it is connected to social anxiety. I expect someone will accuse me of something and I won't be able to respond, I will shut up, I will be embarrassed and this hangs over me like a cloud, always expecting someone will nag, criticize me and I will fall apart.
Thanks to Complex Trauma information I learned this is because I trauma bond with people, I put my self worth in other people's hands. I believe I am inept, so I trust other people are correct, valid and better than me automatically in anything - and I end up matching my emotions with others. Someone feels angry, I feel guilty. Someone protest or curse something, I feel like I must help them and fix them. And I look for signs how everyone is feeling due to this approval addiction, seeking validation from other people.
I had no idea about this before I learned concepts from Complex Trauma.
I would care what other people think, like Twenty One Pilots song "Stressed out":
'But now I'm insecure
And I care what people think'
I learned this is because of guilt. I feel guilty, that is what is producing this chronic anxiety for me. And especially when someone nags or complains - this is the proof for this hovering guilt.
So - in my case it is guilt, feeling guilty for nothing. For existing, For being there.
And there are toxic people like bullies and narcissists who sniff out this irrational guilt of mine - and they gaslight me. They somehow know that easy targets will take blame for anything and they exploit and parasite over people who are silent, quiet, friendly and open.
I learned that talking, being honest and being authentic is the antidote, voicing out the elephant in the room.
Before, I would not comment like this. I would soak videos and shut up. I would self-censor myself.
So in the end I would end up alone - being afraid of bullies and never making contact with other people to make at least surface level friendships.
I am not inept, no one is. And since I have no ill will I do not have to carry guilt like Sisyphus on my back or Atlas on my shoulder.
I see that people who feel chronically anxious carry their own guilt but they are not aware of it.
They label it differently and thus get wrong cure, wrong help. As you mentioned bipolar. Imagine if someone labeled by guilt as bipolar - and to take medications and stuff. No one mentioning trauma and triggers - it would be wrong help,, that might end up to be detrimental.
It is just guilt, taking blame for nothing and thinking that there is ultimate truth in other people, there aren't. I have my knowledge about right and wrong inside me, common sense.
I see guilt as effective tool to hypnotize other people and to control them.
For me, I learned through CPTSD information is external referencing. I put my self worth in other people so I match my emotions to others, seeking approval from others.
So I learned that even when I do something right, I will notice, listen and obey others, their criticism, their comments, their opinions - I take it as ultimate truth, automatically. I feel shame and guilt when someone says something and this controls me and guides me decisions - usually to shut up, to obey, never protest, always going along, trying not to rock the boat. Yeah, it is irrational guilt that I feel guilty for nothing, just for existing. And I match other people to control my mood. This gotta stop, this is unhealthy.
I do not perceive and see other person as exploiter, that they don't have to do anything. I see them as superior force that must tell me what to do, or explain me what I think and form my opinion, I do not trust my hunch. Well, that must finish. I can trust my opinion, even with possibility of being mistaken. Alternative is being people pleaser and being pushover.
I learned that some people are manipulators.
They will appear as friends but only exploit for their agenda. I learned there are borderliners out there that appear as sensitive and empathy but they use and abuse empathy in control way - they don't care for other people, they like to fight and create drama.
So - they will be angry for "justified" reason, they will be pontificators but I have to be silent and quiet and take it all in. I learned when I shut up and self-censor myself - bully will continue doing it, they will interpret it as green light. So.. being quiet and nice and friendly - sometimes it is not the option.
I see being frank, being objective and talk the truth as excellent tool- without drama, without wars, without explosions I speak out the truth, voicing out the elephant in the room, something that is obvious but no one will mention it, especially manipulative people who wants secrets, and us being quiet that we do not mention something that will expose them as abusers.
Also, cutting contact is great way to remove people who are behaving toxically.
I would define what hurt means.
Talking the truth is not hurt. Being objective is not hurt.
We have been instructed and programmed by toxic environment that being genuine and authentic is hurt. So we end up with feeling irrational guilt - we do not see it this is a tool to control us.
Our opinions are labeled as hurt because the truth exposes manipulators. Being transparent. Narcissists hate transparency.
Being objective and talking truth is not hurt. Hurt is to attack someone, to curse them, to be violent and unkind.
If I refuse or reject someone's idea where they don't have to do anything while I have to do everything - and speaking about it is not hurt, it is being honest and telling the truth.
We are being told we are rude or they mock us, or label us as over sensitive or any other label that is only gaslighting us into subservience and being slave.
I learned that there is concept called external reference locus of control where I put my self worth in other people hands and I believe them they are superior, so I believe anything they say. While in the same time I am inferior and inept, so my opinions do not matter or they are wrong by default. I try to match with other people emotions so I will try to fix them and try to make their experience pleasant at my expense.
I learned this is due to guilt. i was convinced it was intrusive worry, intrusive thoughts, pureOCD. It is not - it is this imposed, implanted irrational guilt that other people use and abuse in order to control other people, it is hypnosis.
I learned saying no - does not actually mean saying no. IT means believing my self, having self esteem, valuing my opinion, believing my thoughts, opinions, common sense, intuition and hunch instead of matching my mood in accordance to other people, thinking I must fix other people and take care of them especially when they are rude, loud, aggressive and obnoxious and bully.
This is external reference locus of control. I put my self worth in other people hands and I observe others and believe them to be superior and I must trust and serve them, never oppose or deny their requests. I can put my self worth in myself.
"I noticed this, there is something going on, they will come up with objections"
Nope. they will turn their back and walk away. They will leave you
"You have to be monster"
Nope. Victim becomes victimizer. It makes chaos, being jerk will not solve problem.
Speaking the truth, being objective without drama and chaos and explosions is doable.
I see Jordan Peterson's advice about anything is that he is instructing us to become Homer SImpsons' sperm : giant head that is running and rushing around and keep on bumping onto other giant heads in all this chaos. He is making us all dressed up with nowhere to go.
He as narcissists does not understand that you can't exploit other people.
"Pathological things, you can straighten this up"
No, you can't. That is what it makes pathological. You can't talk logic with psychopath, he will not listen to you, that is what makes him crazy.
"Stop doing it"
In corrupt countries - you can't get another job
"say something"
Well university in Canada said something about Jordan Peterson and he sued them, while in the same time he makes great speeches about Freedom of talk. He is hypocrite.
"if you are careful, this is strategic battle"
Nope, it is narcissism. Manipulative people will gaslight you. There is no need for special strategy. They will label us as crazy or snowflakes. They will lie, they will try to impose irrational guilt, make us feel guilty. Because guilt is hypnotic emotion, it is hypnosis. You control other people by making them feel guilty. Pinpoint other people's flaws and mistakes.
"Pick your poison"
What he tries to say, intelligent people will feel annoyed by everyone and anything - so you have to set up level what bugs you and what you will react to.
But he is making it so complicated, while it is simple:
Be honest, don't self-censor, voice out the elephant in the room - especially when someone is talking directly with me, when someone is accusing me of something. Speak the truth. being transparent, narcissists hate transparency. Being objective.
"Better argue than fight"
There is saying: People who can't communicate think everything is argument.
"Just say what you have to say"
Like that university that you sued?
7 months later and I found out - it is the only way: total forgiving, total forgiveness.
There is no other way. It is unfair since we got hurt and we experienced pain and injustice. but nevertheless - if we dwell and ruminate on it - we allow them to control our mood and thoughts.
The only way is to forgive them honestly in our minds and let it go through that.
This does not mean I will not react in the future and shut up.
Also, I realized when you forgive - although this sounds cliche, religious, spiritual, whimp or sissy - it is not. It is very powerful - because you are eliminating whatever happened to you, you are erasing these people out of your head - as if they never existed. Because you are at peace now - and they do not harness your thoughts when worry or when similar things happen and trigger you into rumination.
That's how I see it , that we let go of resentment. Forgive.
There is a reason why they do not stand up for themselves. Otherwise they would stand up for themselves a long time ago.
It is imposed and implanted guilt.
People who are pushovers and people pleasers without agenda (such as for example borderlines who abuse empathy and sensitivity for their drama hunt) - were traumatized in childhood. They went through special training in their childhood, a programming, a hypnosis like Pavlovian dogs or circus animal - to serve and obey others, especially if they are manipulative (using fears and shame to control other people). People who can't stand up for themselves now have a body that releases chemicals and hormones whenever they need to stand up for themselves - racing heart, anxiety feeling, our body is conditioned to feel fear and anxiety when we need to warn and alarm someone about our boundaries.
These facts should be told and explained, otherwise simply telling the target "to stand up for themselves" will not work.
We got to talk about this hypnotic implanted guilt that we feel whenever we need to stand up for ourselves.
That toxic shame is the core of distortion.
Now, CBT and official medical therapy and resources completely ignore this guilt and focus only on physical sensations (palpitation, sweat, dread, nausea, fear, fight or flight or fawn trauma response). Focusing on normal reaction to abnormal people is detrimental.
We need to focus on this synthetic guilt we get - due to programming, psychological abuse in childhood (being exposed to criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria) when child brain was unable to process mentally ill people other than internalizing toxic shame and developing immature ego defense mechanisms.
Hopefully my comment will open people eyes and look at manipulative people to detect them on time, before they make damage.
Purpose of psychology is that we learn we can deal and manage with life on our own. That we have power and resources inside to deal with life.
People like Peterson are exploiting our weaknesses and they present themselves as Messiah. Dark Triad and Dark psychology.
Unfortunately, not all people are honest, friendly and open as people who now seek guidance and who are confused about life.
People like him exploit confused people.
We need to be aware of wolves hiding in sheep's clothing.
People can suggest, people can explain - but this does not give them the right to judge, shame, control, pontificate and order people around.
I learned that people do not know exactly what they are feeling. Especially people who went under Complex trauma, where they've been repeatedly told and shown that their opinions, emotions and thoughts do not matter.
For decades I was convinced that what I feel from social anxiety is toxic shame, fears and intrusive worries PureOCD thoughts. Now I learned that it is actually imposed and implanted guilt. Irrational guilt was all the time the culprit. So me identifying emotions - did not help, it was even detrimental, since anxiety did not go away.
"we get triggered" "you might notice as symptom"
What I learned that when I am triggered I am not aware I am triggered at all. That is huge problem itself. My thoughts go through normal timeline and there is no signal that I am triggered.
"We try to settle down" "reframing and re-phrase"
This seems to me like ritual. What I learned from PureOCD that if I need ritual to calm down, this will generate OCD. This ritual will create new anxieties and keeps the anxiety loop ongoing. PureOCD techniques tell us that we come to term with anxiety and triggers - something that will happen no matter what, and that it is only signal about something else, my feelings and emotions and panic are ok, it is normal reaction to abnormal people, abnormal events, abnormal situations. Pinpointing to my feelings makes it worse, since now I have additional worries and additional panic about something natural.
"it is what it is" "it's not worth it"
Bad advice. What if I meet some bully and manipulator. Forcing myself to be calm and let it go will give them green light to abuse me and ashame me and use me.
"I'm gonna all day as a front end strategy try to keep reframing and reappraising things that normally get me up here, get me triggered, nervous, anxious, mad"
Horrible advice. Polyvagal theory tells us that we are hyperalerted and chronically always on lookout - this is what your advice is telling us to do, to be always on the check.
CBT never helped me, it was always detrimental and caused me new and additional fears and panic attacks.
These strategies will work for someone who never had any trauma and who is financially rich to evade any Maslow need to be met. Paradox is that people who have everything will never watch videos like these, they will never seek CBT treatment - yet people who need it the most end up with these non functional advice that does not work in real world and with real life problems and real life issues.
I would highlight instead person's strength and resources inside, that we get rid of guilt, that was imposed and implanted by toxic people who manipulated us into subservience and "letting it go".
“Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.”
I don't see focus on symptom as helpful, it never helped me. In fact it even made me more frightful, because now I was scared of feeling scared and also this gave me definite proof that something is terribly wrong with me - since I did not fit into presumed assumption that other people do not feel anxious, and this is something I must get of rid of.
"I would get embarrassed because of my symptoms - this belief caused social anxiety, I was afraid one of my weaknesses would get exposed"
I learned this is not what bothers me primarily. It is making mistakes, not knowing something and someone criticize me because of my ineptness. Then my shaky voice or hands is only additional worry. Criticism is primary fear, not symptoms.
"there were different events"
Nope, it is only one even: Complex Trauma. Complex Trauma is hovering above Social anxiety.
Bullies sniff out when someone is not allowed to express himself due to being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when child brain is unable to handle and process it other than employing immature ego defense mechanisms. This limited expression is problem, not bullies. Again, bullies are just like symptoms the secondary problem.
"This belief loses its power"
There is not one belief, if we correct one belief, 10 more will spring up. This is useless approach that may lead to PureOCD rituals to avoid anxiety. It is like Hydra, you chop off one snake - new poisons will pop up.
Problem is imposed and implanted guilt, feeling guilty for being myself, for existing and expressing myself. That is the cause and spring of disorder.
I learned through Complex Trauma information concepts that helped me re-frame my beliefs.
Such as "external reference locus of control" - where I put my self worth in other people hands and I see them as gods, while I am inferior and inept. I distrust my opinion in favor of others which I accept automatically. I can put back self worth where it belongs - to intrinsic values inside me. Toxic shame is hallucination which I believe in, that I am inept and that I cannot trust my own judgement, common sense and super-ego - therefore I will place my worth in other people through people pleasing, being pushover and fawning.
But it is said "What you fight, persist".
"it shows you how to when you leave the conversation with someone that other person would think Whoa, I really enjoyed that conversation"
This sounds like fawning advice, something that people with social anxiety and avoidance issues will succumb naturally as protective mechanism.
This leads to people pleasing.
I learned this is because I feel inept due to toxic shame - then I place my self worth in other people hand's and I seek their approval, I care what they think, this creates multiple anxiety loops , I end up people pleasing others with the urge that other people like me and everyone loves me and my conversations. Which leads me to wear mask and not being myself, not being genuine and authentic and honest - so what happens in real life - is that there are a lot of narcissists and borderliners and manipulators out there that sniff out people like us, people who are friendly, nice and open - and they exploit us.
They sniff out our need to leave great conversation, without conflicts, without telling the truth and they then exploit toxic shame and activate guilt inside us whenever we do protest or simply state the obvious, voice out the elephant in the room.
This is recipe for disaster.
Some people out there do not want conversation - but they will appear as they do.
Some people are not friendly at all - but they will appear to be very friendly in order to exploit others or worse.
People with social anxiety try to get rid of fear by eliminating the only source of panic and anxiety - other people's mood. Thus we develop fawning.
In the same time we do not believe in ourselves that we are worthy, so we place our self worth in other people hands so we match our emotions to theirs. This is called External reference locus of control. It is a recipe for fawning, people pleasing, codependency, trauma bonding, caring what other people think to the point we forfeit our space, needs and opinions just to please other people.
This does not mean we should be rude. This is not about that at all.
This is the problem. We are being told by narcissists that telling the truth and being honest is rude. So - we can voice out the elephant in the room without drama, without wars, without explosions - and this message is not prevalent in media or books like you mentioned. We are being programmed into belief that we must be either obeying angels who take abuse - or Rambo Terminator who engage in Karen mode as the only alternative.
There is the third way.
"you do everything without listening what they are saying"
This is called hyperarousal. This is normal reaction to abnormal situation, abnormal people, abnormal events. If we meddle with this, this will create neurosis and mental illness in long term.
People with social anxiety have Complex Trauma - this means they were exposed to trauma in their childhood - being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria in time when child brain is unable to process it other than developing immature ego defense mechanism.
Now as adult, if we look at Polyvagal Theory (google image) - we can see that we get thrown out of balance when something triggers us or we have flashbacks.
If someone is nice, if other person is ok, we will not be focused on our panic attack that appear to us as thinking what I am feeling. If I feel uncomfortable, there is a reason why. By telling myself I have to calm down - this means I repeat the trauma cycle; I do not allow myself to be myself, I abandon myself, I do not give care and attention to myself, I do not see other person as someone who is dangerous - instead we do the opposite: I will try to fit into society by being Mr Pleasant and Good guy that never shows his real emotions and being genuine. If someone is making me uncomfortable, this is signal that there is something wrong.
Now you may say - well I can simply ask that person Are you a bad guy? Do you have evil agenda? What do you think, will a person who is evil admit they want to exploit you?
We can actuallly try this out - and it works. When we call the other person on their rude and annoying behaviour - in most cases they will change. Those who do not change are narcissists and they can't take no for answer.
"I would in my head, F*king moron, pay attention and try to bring center of my attention"
This is trauma speaking. This is negating my own feelings and emotions and trying to fit into society rules and obligations. This is trauma repeating itself. This is what happened in our childhood. Someone mentally ill cursed us, and programmed us, hypnotized us into feeling guilty for feeling uncomfortable in order to obey, to serve, to be subservient to authority. This negative self talk is social anxiety itself. This self attack, self abuse. IT is the repetition of trauma.
"back to what I am doing"
It can't. Brain functions that way. When we are triggered, brain goes haywire. This is normal. There is nothing to fix. This is how it suppose to work.
When we are triggered we get into 4F trauma response: fight, flight, freeze and fawn. Some say there is flop and one more F.
This is what we learned in our childhood in order to survive. Without it - we will fawn.
Fawn is when we ignore ourselves and try to fit into society. As if society is just world, where all people are good, nice, friendly, as if there is no external factor: narcissists, exploiters, users, parasites, emotional vampires, exploiters. This is hypnosis we received as children, we were trained like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals to be good and nice person that never display our authentic, honest, genuine emotions, opinions and thoughts. This is recipe for social anxiety and mental disorder.
"This is what book talks about"
This book is the problem.
"Be empathetic"
People with social anxiety are empathetic. If they were not, they would be narcissists or borderliners (borderliners use empathy as agenda). People with social anxiety and avoidance issues are over empathetic, in so much it has gone off the charts, it is far off extreme. The messages such as this crappy book do more damage - since it forces us to fawn even more. To people please even more. This book sets us up to be exploited by others. This is why mental issues can't be solved by popular media, but the experts. The purpose of this book is to be sold and to make money. It does not have the goal to help people. This is what narcissist do, manipulators.
"Give a f*ck about what they are saying"
People with social anxiety are already zoomed into other people. They soak up their every word, this is why it hurts that much and why it appears as if we are closed. We appear as if we have shell - but this shell is to protect ourselves since our self worth is placed in other people hands, it is not inside us. This means, I will feel everything that other person feels. I will adjust my emotions and mood in accordance with other people. I will try manically to fix them if they feel bad. Exploiters will sniff out this very quickly and they will exploit our urge to fix them, they will throw temper tantrums and they will see that we fawn to them whenever they are angry to throw drama.
This is external reference locus of control, trauma bonding.
This should be deserved. This is privilegy, not the right. IF the other person behaves like crap, this person does not deserve anything, much less to be empathetic to them.
"Get comfortable"
Trauma is locked inside the body. People can't get comfortable at the press of the button. There is negative stuck energy inside the body that gets triggered when unknown or rude people are around. You can not fix that with logic or order.
"Make conversation about them"
Again, this has to be deserved.
I just read the DK The Crime Book - and there was a case in post war Japan where one maniac went to a bank, tell everyone he is having a pill for them, as a part of medical procedure to prevent disease. And employees drank it immediately, without protest - because they were instructed by society and such crappy books to be obeying and not to be selfish and make the world about authority and serving it - and they all dropped dead, since the guy gave them poison - he killed all the bank personnel and rob the bank. We can't trust everyone, it is not healthy.
(the Teigin Bank murder case)
Again, this does not mean we should be rude, Karen, hysterical, angry or abusive. There is the third way. We can find the balance between being people pleaser and being jerk. Your book is instructing already empathetic and open people to be even more open and ready to get exploited by others.
"repeat what they said"
What I dislike about specific instruction how to behave is that it appears as if we wear mask, we do not behave authentically. IT is ok to remember it, and carry it on, but to stick it inside our mind as if it a post it will appear mechanical and annoying in real world. Also, having instructions is actually road to PureOCD where we have certain rituals in order to calm the anxiety.
One another argument against specific instructions is Ebbinghaus Forgetting Curve - we will forget any instructions with time.
Coupled with trauma response - where our brain goes to amygdala instead of cortex - there is no way we will remember our instructions - therefore our urge to appear perfect and not make mistake is the real problem here - this is social anxiety itself.
It seems to me you are influenced by Jordan Peterson, who is quack. He uses oversimplifications and uses logical fallacies and cognitive bias in order to make quick assumptions. He does not care about people, he has some serious mental issues himself, he is narcissist and have no empathy, so he is bad role model for young people today.
"stop bring someone who you want that other person wants to see"
But you spent your whole video instructing people to not be genuine and honest and authentic.
"be vulnerable about it"
Again, it seems to me you see all people as good and nice and kind. They aren't. Some people do not care. They will appear as they care - but in reality they collect information from you that they will use afterwards in accordance to their hidden agenda. Not all people who appear friendly as friends, nor they have friendly intentions.
"Be 100% undeniably yourself"
But this goes against what you talked in your video.
If I do not look at people in the eyes, I would not make a big deal about it. IF I do not feel comfortable, I would not force myself to get comfortable just for the sake of pleasing other person. IF I reject what other person is babbling - perhaps I know on subconscious level that this person is fake or super dumb so I do not want to taint my head with irrational ideas, get infected by their stupidity or violence.
"Be super empathetic"
Is advice for people pleasing, fawning, being pushover. IT is advice to automatically see everyone around me as people with good intentions who deserve my love, trust and kindness without earning it.
"I go out of my way and make conversation"
I would say that some people are bored but they will never admit it in order not to hurt your feelings. I would not force other people in talking, I think this is a bad advice.
Information related to Complex trauma helped me to make sense of my fears and panic attacks.
External reference locus of control, fawning, Polyvagal theory"
"Expose yourself to social anxiety situations" "I have to expose myself to social situations"
I would note that without addressing imposed guilt this is the road to fawning, people pleasing, being pushover ,since I would put my self worth in other people hands, seeing them superior, while I am inferior due to toxic shame, belief I am inept, so my opinions do not count.
"Say Yes or No"
I would rather instead try to be myself - be honest. Be genuine. Talk truth. Be genuine.
"Worrying what will other say"
IT is guilt. It is imposed implanted guilt that we were programmed in our dysfunctional childhood, being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7, adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process it other than developing immature ego defense mechanism.
This means, I cannot shut off worry at the press of the button. Also, it means if I make a big deal out of my worry - I will put limelight on it, and it will turn into parade of intrusive worry, it is the road to PureOCD.
Other than that, I realized specific instructions does not work in real world.
I would be careful with those.
Ebbinghaus Forgetting Curve will make us forget whatever we learned, that is not part of our persona and personality, or habit.
Also when triggered, amygdala has not capacity to remember delicate decorations how to behave in correct manner.
Which brings me to the final point, that our need/urge to have perfect manner, correct narrative, to appear perfect - is the social anxiety itself. Fear from being authentic, Fear from being imperfect, fear from making mistakes, fear from triggering other people into criticism and their temper tantrums - so I think falsely that I must appear good, perfect, super human, without mistakes.
I see specific instructions such as assume relaxed state as part of PureOCD - that there is a specific ritual how I must behave in order to calm down the anxiety and perceived danger.
I would instead accept myself as I am and work on that - if I want to, without the urge to people please others, but rather myself. If I appear rigid, ok, fine. If I do not look at other people in the eyes, ok, I will trust my gut and instinct, since many people are manipulators and wear masks and appear as friends in order to gain some hidden agenda of exploitation.
Social anxiety as CPTSD is that we were rejected in childhood about being who we are. So, trying to impose high standards tells me (even though it has good intentions) that I am inept, that there is something wrong with my be default, and that I must wear mask and pretend to be something I am not, something that is not natural to me - so I would be very careful about specific instructions how to behave. As we all know psychiatrists will never instruct us how to behave, act, talk or think - unless we are being unkind or violent.
So if I want and if I have urge to appear calm and relaxed - this is rejection of myself, my feelings and emotions that may entail panic and fear. And then I repeat the learned trauma from childhood - to stuff it up, to pretend that nothing bad is happening, and that my goal in life is to people please others and make it comfortable for them at my expense.
Following some imaginary high standards and instructions is forfeiting my inner guidance and my self worth and placing it to other people - that their emotions, moods and reactions are the most important thing in the world, while my fears and uncomfortable feelings should be stuffed down and ignored. I would rather go with the flow. If something is feeling wrong, it probably is.
Social anxiety is having imposed and implanted guilt. Over anything. Feeling guilty about nothing, just to serve and obey other people. Guilt was used as a weapon in order to control us as kids and we continue doing this in adulthood.
Therefore-
Instead of specific instructions how to behave in social world, I would focus on this imposed and implanted guilt and manage it. I see this as more productive, happier and fulfilling focus.
---
Totally agree with you.
Medicine has side effects, it is toxin as well as medicine. And it can turn into crutch where I have to walk on my own.
"Daily reflection"
I do this as a blog. I put my thoughts about social anxiety and try to see it objectively, without self-censorship. I process information I gather and try to make sense with myself and situations I face with in real life.
"Learn how to be confident" "No skill, information"
I learned that confidence is paradox. Trying to gain it makes us inferior, because we try to over-compensate. Paradoxically accepting I am not confident - gives me confidence. Total acceptance as I am, Come As You Are.
By learning the concept of "external reference locus of control". Due to toxic shame internalized we can't accept ourselves as we are, we see ourselves as inept and then we fix this by putting our self worth in other people's hands. It is about observing other people as gods and whatever they say it is absolute truth that must not be confronted. We trauma bond with people, we match our emotions to reflect what other person is broadcasting. If they have issues, we try to fix them, thus develop codependency. This is because our self worth is trauma bonded with them, so we care what people think, we seek approval and validation from others.
Narcissists and borderliners and manipulators will sniff out this urge of ours to people please others and they will throw temper tantrum in order to control us, triggering our guilt as hypnosis.
Put self worth back to yourself, intrinsic value locus of control. Google it.
This means, being ok with myself as I am. Speaking the truth, being honest, voicing out the elephant in the room without drama and wars and hysteria.
Knowing that there is no absolute truth, so I do not need other people to guide me and tell me who I am, define me and what I must do, act, feel or think.
There are people who can't take no as answer. They throw temper tantrums, threats or they sneak attack behind people's back later on - by withholding information or denying service, help or some hidden revenge.
External factor being manipulators, narcissists, exploiters, users, abusers, emotional vampires, borderliners, parasites.
Usually the message to say no is directed at the target, as if a person chooses to say no out of thin air. It is programmed order from dysfunctional childhood and environment (Complex Trauma). This means codependent or people pleaser will not set boundaries by logic, simply by someone telling them "say no to others".
"They've asked me something but I'm not obligated. I don't owe anybody anything. They're asking something of me which is then me giving"
This sounds ok, but in real life, this part is murky.
In toxic relationships (business or private) usually there is bully on one side that is egocentric and mentally ill and sees other people around them as slaves and private property. The black scenario alternative is living in the streets as homeless person - if your Maslow needs are connected to these arrogant and selfish people (Maslow needs being connected to shelter, job, help, finances, service, help).
"We cannot be responsible for other people's feelings"
Yes, that is true. But people who went through Complex Trauma get triggered by other people's feelings so their decisions, mood, choices and opinions are activated by other people's feelings.
Enter external factor who sniffs this activation system in easy targets (victims of psychological abuse) and you get yourself people pleaser who can't say no.
"How somebody interprets that how somebody takes some answer of mine is not my fault, it's not my responsibility" "some may struggle with this, take baby steps"
Baby steps do not help. This is half-baked information. This is only half of the story.
BY logic it is not my responsibility - but the reason why I see it as my responsibility is the core of distortion that causes people pleasing: it is imposed and implanted guilt.
Guilt is hypnotic, it is hypnosis itself. External factor uses and abuses guilt in others in order to control them.
What I would rather focus on is this guilt - and see it as brainwashing and gaslighting, which you did not mention in this video unfortunately (along with narcissists).
Focusing only on symptom and target is not helpful. It is clinically and medially correct, just as CBT - but it does nothing, in fact it increases this guilt and blame and subconsciously the target thinks it is his fault and there is nothing to do here.
It does not take baby steps. It is about realizing that hypnotic imposed guilt is guiding our lives, our options, our decisions.
Also, I would mention concept called "external reference locus of control" where due to toxic shame (implanted in childhood) I believe I am inept - so I put my self worth in other people's hands, and I believe them to be gods, so that everything they say I take as personal order and I must obey them, and automatically see and perceive anything from others as fine, correct and valid. Toxic shame is hallucination, so I can bring back self worth back where it belongs - inside me, trusting my opinions, my needs, my worth. When I know what I want is when saying no will flow naturally.
I found that saying no is actually not about word "no" at all. It is about knowing what I know and voicing it out. Voicing out the elephant in the room, it is about being honest, genuine, authentic, speaking the truth. With toxic shame I can't accept myself since I am ashamed of myself, so people pleasing is when I live my life through others. Others set decisions and choices instead of me. That is the core of people pleasing. Programmed with irrational guilt - feeling guilty and panic attack whenever I would stand up for myself or speak the truth. Trauma bonding and seeking approval, validation from others will stem from this conditioned guilt, learned as Pavlovian dogs or circus animals to obey and serve others.
I also learned the difficulty to say no and set boundaries is due to this Pavlovian dogs conditioned - my body is releasing chemicals and hormones - as learned in childhood - whenever I would express myself, expressing my discontent or what I like, whenever I would object something or show and display any natural reaction to what is happening - I would be ashamed. Being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when child brain is unable to process it other than developing immature ego defense mechanism - is what programming guilt is.
Fear is related to amygdala hijacking.
Hijacking means it takes over our brain. It is not something related to contemplating or wisdom. It is uncomfortable emotions and it should be, it is designed that way.
Imagine if you do not have fears - you would accept any jerk, scum, criminal in your home to do whatever they want. Without fears we would be people pleasers, pushovers and fawn onto all people whoever they are (narcissists, borderliners, parasites, manipulators, parasites, emotional vampires, exploiters, abusers, users).
But people with toxic shame internalized can't. That is the problem. Everything is tainted. The good aspects are seen as low, irrelevant and are dismissed. Toxic shame is default core feeling of being inept. Not trusting my own opinions, experiences, decisions and mistakes.
"built positive relationships"
Again, people with low self esteem have external reference locus of control due to toxic shame (toxic shame is hallucination and it can be burst like a bubble in a second).
Due to seeing external validation and trauma bonding there will be no positive relationships. IT is because due to external locus of control self worth is placed in other people hands. This taint all relationships rendering them useless. It is relationship that is parasitical, where I do everything and other person is god I must obey. Instead of jumping in relationships, I would focus on shifting back self worth where it belongs - to myself, being comfortable with myself, with being undone, with my mistakes.
Also one detrimental factor is what I define as external factor - unreasonable people who impose their opinions ,demands, thoughts, wishes upon other people in order to exploit easy targets. If I am not aware to define and label certain people as virus, I will allow them to chip off my self esteem by their manipulation and exploitations. I am talking about narcissists, abusers, users, exploiters, parasites, borderliners, emotional vampires. They will appear as you defined "positive relationships": help you uplift you, motivate you, it is not about putting ourselves down all the time - especially borderliners are doing this. I would highlight this phenomena since people with self esteem take blame for anything and everyone and think it is their fault.
The core of low self esteem is imposed and implanted guilt and I am sorry you did not mention this. Guilt is hypnotic emotion, I am talking about imposed guilt, irrational guilt - that I feel guilty over nothing. This is how external factor controls and exploits easy targets - they sniff out people with low self esteem.
Without extradition of this guilt, I would avoid making any relationships.
Without placing self worth back to myself, loving myself first, I would avoid making any relationships.
It is about knowing what I want, like, need, and what I see as valuable - something that needs to be sorter out first, and then build on that.
If I am unable to speak frankly and if I am stuck in intrusive worry about what someone else will think or feel (external reference) - I will self-censor myself - and I will end up fawning to others, I will end up as people pleaser and pushover.
I would narrow it down to the core issue: imposed and implanted guilt.
Being conditioned like Pavlovian dogs or circus animal into herd mentality and groupthink, serving and obey others, seeing others as higher authority, whereas whatever I do, act, think is irrelevant, useless, stupid and I have to fawn to others in order to be accepted. If I voice out the elephant in the room, if I am honest, if I stand up for myself or reject something - body pumps out chemicals and hormones and controls me into subservience and self-censorship. I get addicted to what other people think by my own body due to Pavlovian dogs programming/conditioning in Complex Trauma childhood.
So I would simply focus on this implanted guilt (irrational hypnotic controlling guilt for feeling guilty over nothing) instead of rationalizing it and branching it off to other concepts.
"In a society that profits from your self doubt, liking yourself is a rebellious act."
For decades I was convinced that fears I feel are the problem and issue - so I focused on them. I learned about social anxiety, avoidance, panic attacks and CBT. In the end, I ended up with more fears since now I was aware that something is wrong, that there is something I must battle, and that there are plethora of fears to fear when I read and studied about toxic shame examples. CBT for example suggest to build a list of fears and face them one by one. Horrible advice.
I ended up with agoraphobia and mutism when I focused on fear.
What we fight, persist.
In the end, only this year when I learned about Complex Trauma, fears made sense. It was normal reaction to abnormal situation, abnormal people and abnormal events.
I learned only this year that instead of fears - it was guilt as the culprit of distortion.
Imposed and implanted guilt, irrational guilt, feeling guilty for nothing and for everything. Being blamed automatically for anything, by myself, my inner critic and need to be perfectionist and other people who were toxic - since sensitive people attract toxic people like moth to a flame.
I can only speak from my experience. What I observed is that analysis leads to paralysis.
The more I studied the fear, the worse it got.
I realized with time, in order to shift my focus from fear is about being natural, authentic and honest. I also realized that the need to get rid of the fear or to think about it is coming from intrusive worry.
Thinking and pondering about fear is leading to chronic worry. It is described in Polyvagal Theory. It is about being hyper-alerted and hyper-vigilant. Expecting things, people and events that scare me in the future.
So instead of living my life, going with the flow and knowing what I want, I would focus on my fears and trying to get rid of them. Or embrace them. Bad decision.
PureOCD techniques tells us if we develop any kind of ritual to calm down whatever we regard as dangerous will lead to obsessions and compulsions. So even meditation - demand that I calm down on request can soon turn out to be OCD ritual.
What I learned when I find out about Complex Trauma, is that fear is programmed in childhood by being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria, when child brain is unable to process it other than developing immature ego defense mechanism.
One of the mechanism is rationalization.
"Rationalization is a defense mechanism proposed by Anna Freud involving a cognitive distortion of "the facts" to make an event or an impulse less threatening. We do it often enough on a fairly conscious level when we provide ourselves with excuses."
That is what your advice sounds to me like.
"Why feeling guilty? Guilty of what?"
As I said, guilt is programmed in our childhood when we are exposed to environment without love.
I realized that fear is actually made of this equation:
anxiety = overthinking.
Overthinking = intrusive thoughts.
Intrusive thoughts = PureOCD
PureOCD = Complex trauma
Complex trauma (PTSD) = wound
wound = guilt
I realized that beneath the fear is always the imposed and implanted guilt.
That is why I would rather focus on irrational guilt than the fear.
If I focus on fear - thinking about it, embracing it, it will solve nothing. I am suppose to feel fear when something is not right. It is alarm. It suppose to work that way.
On the other hand, if something bad and scary happens, and I am unable to respond in any other way than 4F trauma response - which may include fawning - this can lead me into trouble. I can become pushover, people pleaser, abusers can exploit me easy because I am feeling guilt actually.
Not the fear.
I am feeling pressure to comply to other person due to toxic shame. I believe I am inept so I put my self worth in other people.
For long time, I labeled this feelings as fear. And it got me nowhere. I would shut up, I would self-censor myself and I would not stand up for myself. I know I am feeling fear and that was it - there was no solution, no resolution, nothing to clarify me who I am and what I am suppose to do other than freeze or fawn or avoid life and people.
This is why I see focus on fear non-productive and counter-productive.
"Others has no issues with and the physiological response are different"
Totally agree.
But this is exactly the reason why I am writing my experience.
Because all information I was exposed to was about fear. And this information as I said did not help me at all - it even make things worse.
Nobody talked about the irrational guilt.
I hope my comment will help someone not to waste years spent in chronic worry, hypervigilance and hyper-alert state.
It all comes down to being myself, and accepting myself as I am, with mistakes included. If I have no ill will to others there is no reason to hide away from life.
As Shakespeare said:
"Be just and fear not"
This is what I disagree with.
I think this chase for better version will born frustration and hyperalertness and hypervigilance and chronic worry in the long term.
I would rather accept myself totally, as I am. Right now. With mistakes and flaws and everything that I perceive as not perfect - and then build on that without forcing myself.
I would work on my self worth, trusting my capacity, my experience and my super-ego as oppose to some unattainable perfect image that is not realistic anyway. Trusting myself that choices I make are ok, even if they turn out to be mistake.
I would force myself to action, since trauma makes us stuck. For example - If I am afraid of driving, having driving phobia I would force myself to drive. I would force myself to shift focus (not fighting it) from worry onto goals, tasks and chores to be done, that I would otherwise forget doing them since I would be preoccupied with intrusive worry.
Also, I would force myself to be positive since trauma injury will default me to being pessimist.
Other than that, I would not meddle much into. I see meddling process as plastic surgery that we witness in Hollywood where celebrities are convinced they are ugly so they undergo numerous plastic surgeries to correct what they perceive as ugly, in order to attain perfection.
I would allow myself to be as I am. I would not try to appease the crowds, group think or part of herd mentality. This means, I would not try to change something that many people would label as "introvert". If I do not like parties and being outgoing, I would not force myself. If I do not like particular people, I would not force myself to be friendly and friends with them, especially if they pry and try to get personal information from me, which they use for gossip later on or a way to mock me when they are angry or dislike something about me.
I think this is paradox, similar to confidence phenomena.
I see confidence as paradox:
If I try to be confident - I will never become confident. I will try to over-compensate in order to achieve confidence.
Yet if I do not try to be confident I will become confident, since I will not see myself as mistake.
Albert Einstein said:
“Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man of value.”
I would go along with this quote.
I learned thanks to PureOCD information that urge to control thoughts is road to OCD (intrusive worry, intrusive thoughts and chronic anxiety).
I would be careful about being mindful. It can turn easily to chronic worry and hyper-alertness and hyper-vigilance. If I desire to be calm and perfect myself (re-invent myself) paradoxically I will never be calm - since we are not gods. We were suppose to make mistakes and to be imperfect, since we are human beings.
It is about accepting I will die one day anyway - so nothing material maters really. Since obviously we will not carry our money in afterlife, what we are left to carry in the next life is our experiences and what we learned in this one.
This is why I rather prefer Wu-Wei concept: accepting totally myself as I am right now, and going with the flow, re-inventing as it is necessary and as I encounter eventual blockages, it is not something I do per-emptively, not trying to fix something that is not broken.
"conflict"
In my case I noticed that I over-react. I do not gather information about what frightens or shocks me or bothers me, I rather label it immediately as danger.
It is trauma bonding, Stockholm Syndrome. It concept called "external reference locus of control" where we put our self worth in other people hands, so they are perceived as gods: whatever they say is order and we must obey, we do not doubt them, automatically whatever they say, do act or think is seen and perceived as superior.
This is result of trauma.
It has nothing to do with a choice of choosing low confidence.
IT also suggest that when there is a people pleaser - that this is a sign there was or currently is a mentally ill person in this person's vicinity. Someone abusive, narcissistic, dysfunctional. Without talking about this cause, we add up trauma to people pleasers, as if they are choosing to be victim. So it would not be fair to mention this external factor that is the true cause of people pleasing.
Seeking external validation is done because the people person feels and lives internalized toxic shame (belief of being inept and wrong by default) and this toxic shame is shifting self worth onto other people - who are perceived as normal, best, great, amazing, competent, experiences, stronger. This is why advice "no one is going to like you" will not work.
Toxic shame is hallucination, it appears real in people pleaser's mind: thinking I cannot trust my resources, my decisions, my mistakes.
So being pushover is fear from making mistakes, too. Fear of someone's criticism.
People with Complex Trauma will react to trauma in 4 ways: Fight, Flight, Freeze and Fawn.
Fawn is people pleasing. Fawning is reaction to trauma, learned in childhood to deal with abnormal people and events that child brain is unable to process other than developing immature ego defense mechanisms: being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria.
We can shift back our self worth where it belongs - to ourselves, inside us. Trusting our common sense and our intrinsic value - it is already inside us in a form of Super-Ego (collection or archive or database of all gathered knowledge about right and wrong). We do not need to give power others to choose what is correct. Due to trauma we believe that other people hold the absolute truth - Socrates discovered long time ago that absolute truth is non existent - therefore I can trust myself and my mistakes, my persona and my choices and my character to deal with issues and problems in life. Not other people as I was programmed to think in dysfunctional childhood, being ashamed for expressing myself and being myself.
People usually label emotions in wrong way and this mental shortcut leads astray down the road, with wrong decisions.
This is not discomfort. It feels as discomfort but it is actually imposed and implanted guilt.
Irrational guilt - feeling guilty for nothing and everything. It is method to control easy targets - open, friendly, nice, good people. It is hypnosis, so much used by politicians, marketing and bullies. You ashame someone, and he will do as being told in order to fit into groupthink, herd mentality and imposed societal norms (one of not expressing my emotions when someone is being rude - similar to the movie Incident from 1967).
"breathing" "walk" "something which allows your body to process"
This is setting up ritual in order to deal with anxiety. This is road to PureOCD.
I would rather work on shifting awareness and mentality about anxiety instead of acknowledging it as something dangerous that needs to be calmed down and devote my time and energy and money. I learned in my case this is road to chronic worry loop. Something frightens me - when I create a set of things that gives me a relief - I get rid of anxiety in that particular moment, but as any OCD - I do not deal with anxiety long term, in fact it strengthens it.
Brain is built to protect itself and to notice danger. When I sooth my anxiety, brain will give me more anxiety to sooth. It is built that way. So I would be careful with how I react to anxiety.
The idea is that I accept anxiety and shift my focus onto things I have to do anyway - that I would forget doing them because I would worry how to calm myself down or I would think how to avoid anxiety. Anxiety would become the center of my attention - which is unhealthy.
Someone who appears as friend or friendly - but they exploit information for us for their agenda. In the process they tell and speak their own cognitive distortions that we integrate as part of ourselves (introjection) since they seem trustworthy due to ambiguity and mixed messages.
So I would note the influence of toxic people on our thinking.
Cognitive distortions is not something we choose to think. It is dysfunctional way of thinking that seem normal and healthy to us, helpful and functional since it helps in short term.
Also people are prone to mental shortcuts and biases, it is easier to jump to conclusions rather than thinking thoroughly about them.
Also, people with external reference locus of control will soak other people's thoughts, opinions - which may entail cognitive distortions. It is not something I choose, this is mechanism of trauma bonding and Stockholm Syndrome. So again in this case, I would see that it is helpful to filter out our environment and resolve external reference locus of control by bringing self worth where it belongs - to myself. Which may be hard if I have internalized toxic shame - where I believe I am inept and wrong by default.
Therefore, having cognitive distortions is somewhat complex - and it is not always individual choice of thinking. Our toxic environment may play a crucial role in developing cognitive distortions.
Without noting this external people phenomena - we may be stuck in loop and not knowing what is wrong, why I keep coming back to cognitive distorted thinking.
It is said:
“Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assh*les.”
So it is very feminine.
This is because of simple law of nature - there is always bigger, stronger and more destructive lion than the aggressive one.
In the end, aggressive person exploits easy targets (silent, quiet, pushovers) which is not macho at all, it is pathetic. We now have person who is parasite, not human being. Someone who is parasitic.
Also,
aggressive person is mentally ill. We are not animals. Human brain can be scanned and we can detect psychopath brain with brain scan. Psychopath brain is not working in the area where empathy is located.
Assertive is not taking away things from others, it is not about competitive.
Assertive is someone who speaks the truth without expecting that their opinions will come true and that other people will obey.
We do not live in feminine world that distorts male people.
We are living in mentally ill people world, where being manipulative ego-centric and selfish is normal.
Where even females are no longer females but they are butch. Because in such mentally ill world it is normal to exploit other people through attacking them and parasiting over others by commanding over weak. That is not strength, that is pathetic.
And this is what narcissists, parasites, manipulators will exploit. They will play on this empathy card. Shaming us into submission and subservience. They sniff this imprints and dents inside us and they trigger us into hypervigilance and anxiety so that we obey them.
Also programming in dysfunctional and toxic environment trains our body to release chemicals and hormones that affect our mood. This is not something you can shake off by logic. This is not something you stop at the press of the button. Simply saying "Don't feel guilty", or "let go of guilt" therefore will not work. It is something that is conditioned in your body like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals.
I see relying on our common sense instead of our brain that is injured. going along with decisions from super-ego rather then my brain that will default to being stuck and pessimism.
This means shift focus on tasks at hand, rather then engaging in toxic pureO intrusive worry thoughts that will spring out of nowhere due to conditioning from childhood to feel guilt.
It is about cognitive defusion where I understand that whatever I feel is not objective reality. If I feel bad, this is not proof that I am bad.
Also, it is about "Behavioral activation therapy" - taking action that have no connection with my intrusive worry thoughts that compel me into OCD rituals that I would employ to sooth the anxiety and criticism.
IT is about realizing if I feel guilt that is irrational - no objective reason to feel it, it is because there is mentally ill person in my vicinity that is controlling me by triggering my conditioning from childhood. So it comes down to filtering out people around me - cutting contact or lowering contact with abusive people, it is about being honest and talk truth without hysteria, instead of fawning and self-censorship and shutting up.
