6.1.2022 - white yellow snake, duty of 4th vaccination, christmas lights in form of burj kalifa, wide unpaved parking at island pag near the sea
(Dream Interpretation White And Yellow Snake can also be related to personality. It's a sign that something the dreamer needs to fix.)
7.1.2022 - black pants, laws being read to me by hysterical girl on premises that I am obliged to report weapon given to me in box earlier, concert on tv 90s where do you go i want to know; duty to clone cat for family S from zg, to find it and to give it, find it strenous activity
(Dream About Black Trousers is a message for your spiritual progress and emotional journey. You have accomplished something that you thought was impossible.)
8.1.2022 - rules, thriller - home invasion, watch neighbour in morning, search for five table lights in grammar school, old job - duty to format server with corona virus detected, snow on boardwalk, old job, me in the lift
(The lamp in the dream is a symbol of life and emotion.)
9.1.2022 - test, office, big trouser pockets black pants
10.1.2022 - rules how i suppose to be, bungee jumping from skyscraper - only observing it from top, sick relative, self service restaurant with the name the Diet - with apostrophe, black white ice cream.
11.1.2022 - train (similar to movie snowpearcer) passengers separated by something, underwater slide, hollywood in the centre of my hometown but it looks like Alpine ski resort with small luxury shops, selling honey in the street
12.1.2022 - crossword: pancakes, being on sea without going to beach, street crowds
13.1.2022 - list of movies, guilt as to be pardoned and made small, lemon, parking at grandma
14.1.2022 - cement maker in shape of monolith. chase, math lecture, snakes in the lift, missing shoe and backpack, strange symptoms as if exposed, relatives playing with lego, me without social anxiety interact with them
15.1.2022 - train, getting off the train quickly, the secret map of hidden inka
16.1.2022 - rules, new job, at sea, hostage, getting poured with water by passing car/amphibian, crowds for pool, taking and rolling and parking shopping cart through the crowds and escalator
17.1.2022 - ceo hotel, city plan, adopting the dog, later realizing I have no place for it, driving on road that tranforms in one way track
18.1.2022 - xmas party, fake cake
19.1.2022- observing behaviour, post box, shredded pictures, birthday, unknown guest that I want to people please
20.1.2022 - embarrassing story
21.1.2022 - ww2 and skyscraper in shape of eye (angry birds), person asking for using our toilette, rack shelf that I sort and try to clean
22.1.2022 - group (from high school?) on a train, on the move, quickly to get to another compartment, river
23.1.2022 - running to catch fright train, climbing on open type freight train, fast speed military plane in shape of cannon with music, falling down, explosion near parked car, trying to start and drive my car away from fire, being in military, waiting in line for shower
24.1.2022 - porn popping on pc during presentation to work colleagues. creating folder and being unable to create - it lags or creates wrong one
25.1.2022 - presentation - on top of skyscraper with collegue, watching new buildings - I have exam soon, waiting on station - two movies in listing: one is about drama lady another is horror animals
26.1.2022 - sledding - alligator appears, running away from it
27.1.2022 - nurse measuring pressure in tall building, complaining she can't get job done, cousin's apartment, their toilet, work colleague
28.1.2022 - quake, found VCR tape and watch hidden camera filmed me secretly when I was young
29.1.2022 - carrying a birthday cake, spring flowers (daffodils planted in seedlings like honeycomb and some white latices ones) started to bloom
30.1.2022 - ex collegue, shooping and long que, without wallet in pocket at cash register
31.1.2022 - train, no exit, living alone in hut, high river with cats swimming and snorkeling in it (!)
1.2.2022 - checking pc equipment (ex job), eat fish
2.2.2022 - helped to find lantern for grave, ex job, telling me that I became district attorney
3.2.2022 - entering another world - being guided by family members . with hands in front of me (similar to movie Orpheus), it can be used as to be what you want - the feeling when you cross on the other side is like falling asleep after you are very tired and you are aware of sinking in
4.2.2022 - parachute to Alps - lift, being in elevator - paper notebook with rectangles when clicked respond as if tablet
5.2.2022 - cartoon - being on call in room which is not my work place room, man coming in and taking bath
6.2.2022 - education
7.2.2022 - chocolate with almonds shaped as cake - long walking (repetitive route) - preparing for concert
8.2.2022 - nightmare (oven) - task - typing machine, writing on it (To dream of a typewriter represents a careful or meticulous sharing of facts or ideas with others.)
9.2.2022 - old job fixing pc - colleague conversation
10.2.2022 -*-
11.2.2022 - toilette, go to train
12.2.2022 - being wrongly accused
13.2.2022 - at new foreign job
14.2.2022 - explaining
15.2.2022 - viewing neighbour, control what I can, broken finger toe
16.2.2022 - fixing satellite dish, taking exam in math and english
17.2.2022 - nightmare cooking worm/snake, crossing street during heavy traffic, fly jumping
18.2.2022 - rule - live tv sport - radio that I was forced to listen at ex job - storm coming while I am in appartment
19.2.2022 -*-
20.2.2022 - explaining opinon, toilet without walls
21.2.2022 - blame, accused, tour
22.2.2022 - escape with plane
23.2.2022 - prolong leaving - not making to catch the train that just have left in front of my eyes as I ran to catch it
24.2.2022 - me choosing music I control
25.2.2022 - at old job, explaining - drop rules to enjoy
26.2.2022 - dishwashing, roaming the city
27.2.2022 - walk in local sport park
28.2.2022 - traffic, try to fix other problems
1.3.2022 - -*-
2.3.2022 - trying to confirm
3.3.2022 - who is guilty
4.3.2022 - big nail I remove from path so no one can impale on it
5.3.2022 - me driving others, make their album
6.3.2022 - I will control all bad in it, going to train while other rush in my home
7.3.2022 - playground
8.3.2022 - soccer player, test in history
9.3.2022 - overthinking, chased
10.3.2022 - quake
11.3.2022 - at cinema loud person in authority came to us with alert as group for one unknown person being loud, seeking in building and locating the right road to drive
12.3.2022 - quake at old job, book signing, i show how to put fake tattoo
13/15.3.2022 - *-*
16.3.2022 - high school test, staircase without plates
17.3.2022 - i'm driving the tram for the first time to upward slope - had to stop due to limousine parked partially on tracks
18.3.2022 - train about to leave and I pack maps among many of packages on board, being late for the mass, wearing pink sneakers, buying bread in foreign land - not knowing how to say I want white bread
19.3.2022 - vacuuming, money on account, seeking-finding who put money there
20.3.2022 - defend home example to ukraine
21.3.2022 - tv is my standard what is acceptable, shopping mall I carry trailor through crowds
22.3.2022 - travel (bus or train, whole stages of journey), mum, want to park but I can't get to other side due to road rush heavy traffic
23.3.2022 - modulating my response to do better, playing unknown 90s dance song "change your life"
24.3.2022 - wc, running newspapers, boxer gloves, sea, following cat, indoor zoo with spiders and cats
25.3.2022 - build road
26.3.2022 - how we become we, don't listen to anybody - there is bias, barcelona, as comic book
27.3.2022 -*-
28.3.2022 - funeral, train station
29.3.2022 - plume smoke in Germany from power plant, escape through balcony
30.3.2022 - process of selection, fast to new job, toxic shame is i hate myself
31.3.2022 - statue of liberty crashed, gathering
1.4.2022 - job as animator for kids, four colleagues in office
2.4.2022 - building road like in game sim city, train travel
3.4.2022 - *-*
4.4.2022 - i stand up for myself, train ride
5.4.2022 - depo, parking, who is allowed to park, explaining, realization that someone in store stole instructions and parts for physic box set when I was kid = toxic environment
6.4.2022 - jogging
7.4.2022, 8.4.2022 - *-*
9.4.2022 - visit ex job, ex colleague asked me to check pc
10.4.2022 - test, school, buying pencil in foreign shop, foreign city
11.4.2022 - mass, shop with aunt in the centre, schoolmate, laughing
12.4.2022 - black and white, you can't be
13.4.2022 - examine, handcuffs, synthesizer
14.4.2022 - grand, bike path old
15.4.2022 - *-*
16.4.2022 - gun, threat, stay asleep at the office, chase, relative family, climb ladder, comic book
17.4.2022 - bus station, outer family, wait for lunch
18.4.2022 - alternative place, explained everything, gun
19.4.2022 - war in ukraine as example for abuse, celebration, school bully ask me to burn cd
20.4.2022 - strong quake, ww2 attack, escape through hole ceiling, war lecture by tom hanks, blue worm
21.4.2022 - booking a trip to japan, game show set in large hall where participants must find the correct exit door
22.4.2022 - dog watching from vehicle in movement and hopping by my side from outside during ride, colleague from ex job
23.4.2022 - fake people had to change name
24.4.2022 - seeking numbers of bus lines from before to write in my form notes
25.4.2022 - light bulb, uk woman talking she jogs by the sea, hurt her leg on uneven ground
26.4.2022 - elevator
27.4.2022 - driving on highway with underpass flooded, trip to australia, missing shoe and other items while packing for return, nails in the wall of hotel room, needle on the floor, mass tribute in front or rented appartment
28.4.2022 - *-*
29.4.2022 - english reading in high school and I do not know where I have to begin
30.4.2022 - angry aunt
1.5.2022 - *-*
2.5.2022 - grammar school student, me trying to spare someone's feelings getting hurt so I shut up
3.5.2022 - ex boss yelling, bread with metal parts in it, grammar school colleague delivers package which was not from her
4.5.2022 - packing for voyage, looking for hygienic products to pack, mother
5.5.2022 - banana growing from person and they pick it and eat it, climbing on eaves of stadium, Italy, sea waves
6.5.2022 - forgot to send laptop, party is over and high school students gather at parking
7.5.2022 - city on a river, canoe, hidden brook in backyard, cleaning the field
8.5.2022 - wearing designer hairdoo with white sparkle hair, cowboy hat
9.5.2022 - dart, 3 workers fall from rooftop; white saffron flower, cleaning the ice and snow in front, mountain road in the back
10.5.2022 - bad weather, car stuck, beach, meteor spotting, riding on train, 3 times fall on passenger head
11.5.2022 - stabbed, hate, can't find path, have to pick up neighbor/student from grammar school
12.5.2022 - wc try to poop, catch train to ljubljana, to take test
13.5.2022 - picking up box with kittens across the border, curtains in all colors hanging from building built near river, kitten die then come alive
14.5.2022 - strip, grammar school, driving and waiting, bird poop on my head
15.5.2022 - *-*
16.5.2022 - big boat
17.5.2022 - travel by train, don't know date
18.5.2022 - playground - care bears
19.5.2022 - diarrhea, buy shirt online, ex job buy cars then need to send them
20.5.2022 - ex job
21.5.2022 -*/*
22.5.2022 - find parking, sandwich, ex colleague
23.5.2022 - asked to leave, change clothes in restaurant, intolerance
24.5.2022 - sci fi war, ex job, catch train over overpass
25.5.2022 - mother, class, learned, twitter
26.5.2022 - car, track illness, artificial snow at playground in summer, passing through crowds at narrow passages
27.5.2022 - exam, ex job, miss things to take
28.5.2022 - tram, ticket control, singers, ex colleagues
29.5.2022 - bouquet, beech, ex colleagues
30.5.2022 - sketch, stage, eurovision, old buildings seen from train
31.5.2022 - task, go home, twister, tv search channels, old song eurovision
1.6.2022 - old town, cemented rock, overhear conversation, waiter spill soup, light candle, two exams, black teacher
2.6.2022 - mysterious, new years tv, making love
3.6.2022 - country land, alien, shopping, lake, alien invasion
4.6.2022 - movie plot, pretend being someone
5.6.2022 - cross road, rain hurry
6.6.2022 - obligation at work, cheap ice cream
7.6.2022 - ex boss, lift, cockroach, balloon
8.6.2022 - zoom image
9.6.2022 - being aware to change, ex collegue, school
10.6.2022 *-*
11.6.2022 - classroom, ex colleague, asked to take colleague's bag with me
12.6.2022 - postman, opening the letter with papers inside
13.6.2022 - teacher, online couple live
14.6.2022 - *-*
15.6.2022 - can of paints, test
16.6.2022- pop band, train speed
17.6.2022 - sport plane falling, hysterical gypsies outside shouting at driver
18.6.2022 - party, walking without shirt, no anxiety
19.6.2022 - expert about immunity sit outside, I return to ask question
20.6.2022 - *-*
21.6.2022 - moving car at different spot at parking place
22.6.2022 - explain, flower, monkey outside I try to shoo away, mum outside of window
23.6.2022 - last day of school, string wind inside apartment, doors shuttering, i must comply
24.6.2022 - 50s song, plastic figures camping
25.6.2022 - country road, toxic land, passerby i afraid to be scorned for, not being scorned in the end
26.6.2022 - school
27.6.2022 - job, colleagues - that what I was scared of and reacted were persona, mask they put on which appear to me as real face
28.6.2022 - *-*
29.6.2022 - perfection crumble, wc without wc bowl
30.6.2022 - baby shower, traffic sign missing, shall we report it
1.7.2022 - travel by sea, boat ferry, castle think about how you heal, way to communicate, if you had no problem, there would be no contact nor desire for deeper knowledge, neither I would recognize there are deeper dimensions, looking at room in building where water is dropping from pipe filling the room with accumulated water getting full
2.7.2022 - teen series, accept firmly, driving car
3.7.2022 - message hidden, in small message, tv program for holidays, series on tv slo
4.7.2022 - message is truth, asked for train ticket but I was refused, because I don't have card
5.7.2022 - slippery slope, car parked across street, re-parking car
17.9.2022 - job obligation, expectation, forbidden pass over bridge
18.9.2022 - go to room by climbing over window above it, chase
19.9.2022 - bus travel, back to my place
20.9.2022 - royal visit
21.9.2022 - climb to eiffel tower, ecdl test I go unprepared
22.9.2022 - xmas room, copy data to cd, decode satellite swiss tv, nature walk with industry in it, kitty and hedgehog, bake cake
23.9.2022 - ex job, ex boss, installing fax
24.9.2022 - picking out white tab out inside from nipple
25.9.2022 - avoiding hooligans, showers storm, leaking water
26.9.2022 - wounded cat
27.9.2022 - movie set, funny, train travel, train ticket buying from attendant, being late for school test, didn't write the date and my signature
28.9.2022 - case to solve, ex colleague, catch train
29.9.2022 - finger trap, kidnap
30.9.2022 - jump, xmas tree, job obligation
1.10.2022 - house, defend, ex colleague
2.10.2022 - drink flask in the dark, coughing bees later
3.10.2022 - bette davis impersonator
4.10.2022 - hitman, driving wrong direction
5.10.2022 - foiled planted explosive in park
6.10.2022 - sea, skin rash, rain, wedding, test
7.10.2022 - bomb planted, vinyl selling, listening to it, out in playground, cleaning work by the road - cleaning leaves and garbage, ex job explaining someone how to
8.10.2022 - metro, grave in woods, leave quickly
9.10.2022 - parking, listening, sit next to strong colleague and watching road map from Munich
10.10.2022 - buy bread, call, tv program, drive, told to disinfect phone for someone
11.10.2022 - ex job problem
12.10.2022 - helping homeless to pick, ex colleague
13.10.2022 - long hair, not knowing if I must go to job, travel to job, crowdy street, meet old colleagues
14.10.2022 - opera called chibelia
15.10.2022 - ex colleague, print outside paper and i try to fix it, message on ornament
16.10.2022 - ex colleague, explain, pedestrian crossing, (traffic in dream is symbol for life), attached carriage
17.10.2022 - second hand bag stayed at new office locked with card, card in the bag so I am without money and card
18.10.2022 - airport, date on passport, given gift
19.10.2022 - playground, new year tv, high school occupied athletic track with party and dance, i afraid they might laugh at me if I jog, want reward but I declined it earlier because if must be payed
20.10.2022 - bh90210 actors, brenda breastfeeding, lift at job, then feel threatened judged insecure shame in using lift not safe, playing ball outdoors having fun, throwing ball to trick others
21.10.2022 - be taken advantage of, high school meeting, vendor shopping cakes, newspapers, apples that I want to buy but there is hold up in line, and I cannot see all what is offered if I do no want to lose my place
22.10.2022 - install app to neighbor laptop
23.10.2022 - task presentation of animals, new road, bicycle ride
24.10.2022 -ex colleague, feel sorry for cover narc, mp3
25.10.2022 - new job, design
26.10.2022 - job offer at seaside, dirt on house and feel responsible, man with large birthmarks around eyebrows
27.10.2022 - explaining, things unsaid with mum
28.10.2022 - car in the river, job task keep bills, didn't keep bills, hidden wing in body, bicycle in river, scale not working
29.10.2022 - climb mountain, ex colleague i confronted them with their bs
30.10.2022 - pula town without asphalt, divided in two areas walking around it, swim in sea, beach, at job hall, ex colleague, finding out who is who
31.10.2022 - chased by bad, hunt out bad
1.11.2022 - cartoon on tv promo, dinner afraid to join, on the bed
2.11.2022 - investigate anger responses, making comic book
3.11.2022 - as film plot, hunted
4.11.2022 -unknown people, explain emotions to them
5.11.2022 - knowing its dream not doing anything to wake up, ww2 scene hunting, escaping the secret service
6.11.2022 - baking pie
7.11.2022 - prepare, train travel
8.11.2022 - running to the train, being victorious, watch tv
9.11.2022 - thick huge column of smoke outside of house in the relative short distance - with fire - we need to run to safety, don't know what is the cause
10.11.2022 - germany tram, top floor missing, chocolate, bus ride with disco inside
11.11.2022 - cross street, sea near town, explaining to the russians
12.11.2022 - train, airplane, dinner, model ship, bi-vehicle
16.11.2022 - ex colleague throws party, lift and I can't find 2nd floor button
17.11.2022 - phone call I didn't have number before I can't find caller number, colleague asking me for pin while I'm on the phone and I don't know it
18.11.2022 - destroyed houses in home town due to building of new ones, riding in something, crunched beneath in it, chase
19.11.2022 - two insurances, finding station, ex boss ask me where I put sw and later I realize IT removed it without telling me
20.11.2022 - duty, obligation
21.11.2022 - ex colleague, cleaning wc
22.11.2022 - stage, another space
23.11.2022 - tram ride, relative's cv that I correct, crying out of sadness
24.11.2022 - army exercise with jet plane which wipes out parked cars on boat carrier pushing cars into sea, ex colleague
25.11.2022 - ex boss asking questions, seeking new job in new country
26.11.2022 - roses, weed in bank, berlin subway, flood, climbing to steep, crowds, relative fainted.
27.11.2022 - bicycle long ride, shack, i say incredible facts to impress
28.11.2022 - cardboard man instead of eyes, bumpy road, fly over flower garden, park car, then car is missing
29.11.2022 - unknown woman asked me to burn cd as I did on my ex job
30.11.2022 - walking in new york
1.12.2022 - article about bosnia boy escaping and turning into werewolf, quake and watching buildings shaking in the distance through the window, measuring the volume of body and now knowing how to measure correctly, fishing in poland's muddy river
2.12.2022 - she wolf girl, stealing, biting, shooting, violent, can't get rid off, now I realize how I could ask others to do certain job instead I felt guilty to ask
3.12.2022 - support at work
4.12.2022 - shortest route
5.12.2022 -*-*
6.12.2022 - *-*
7.12.2022 - japanese house clock magnet, swimming back, swim across channel, heavy traffic, boats, talk to asian, pack quickly
8.12.2022 - rivalry, will&grace sit com, old tv guide slo-tv from 2010
9.12.2022 - climbing on gigantic playground arch as game show win competition with ex boss, sliding down at the end saving the score, couldn't wake up, peeing on floor, strange apartment with window to next apartment's room and strange balcony and staircase, angry at ex colleague attacking her because she nags and complains, see through window at strange apartment distant relative I don't like, british pm saying to camilla harris they wouldn't do the same thing if he did the same, she confirmed with empathy that he done the best and would not be reciprocated in his goodness
10.12.2022 - wrote book, train ride, arrived at main station but ride is not over, new passengers arrive
11.12.2022 - something happening according to a story, light show, resolve problems from video message
12.12.2022 - regulation, protocol from ex job
13.12.2022 - *-*
14.12.2022 - girl feeding alligator without fear, kangaroo passing by, test where teacher is scolding me for talking
15.12.2022 - interview old job, embarrassed
16.12.2022 - confidence - good ex colleague me at home the whole summer passing by, she writes about work time pass by quickly
I learned my "I can't" thoughts are part of pessimism and it is background noise. They stem from some trigger (someone being rude) or flashback (memory from past negative scary event, someone being violent, hysterical or critical). Also that is comes in package - it is always related to some perceived or real danger. Most often it is connected to my safety, shelter and security being threatened (getting fired from a job if I stand up for myself, tell someone to keep their opinion to themselves). It comesd as a fog and envelops me into being afraid, hyperalerted and hypervigilant. So this amygdala hijacking that is taking place due to Complex Trauma is literally hijacking my brain, mood, emotions and it makes me feel it will always be like this, that other people will criticize and nag, and that I must be perfect, I must perform without mistakes and that I must appease other people - or I will lose security. This is where PureOCD and anxiety comes from: that I will end up homeless.
---
"Amygdala believes we could get emotionally hurt" I learned this is due to Complex Trauma - childhood experiences where we were exposed to adult hysteria which child brain is unable to process other than internalizing toxic shame, being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7, programmed to believe in irrational guilt that whatever I do will not be good enough, best and perfect and belief it should be. For me, it helps me a little bit to know why amygdala is misfiring and interprets danger and over-reacts. Without knowing CPTSD, I tend to blame myself for feeling blame - since I was programmed to feel toxic shame and irrational guilt. I think this is the first mistake that official social anxiety mentors are doing - they do not make it clear that amygdala misfiring is not our own fault. It is crucial to understand we are not choosing this. Because society will label and diagnose us as victimhoods, someone who is willingly choosing to be a victim. This unfair blame, quick bias from others creates additional social anxiety on top of the existing one. Also Amygdala fires at other people criticism. The core of social anxiety is being afraid of other people nagging, complaining and criticism. Other people are annoyed too about this, but for social anxiety, this is the prime focus in life - due to trauma. Childhood trauma is not always connected to physical abuse - it is also neglect, relentless criticism, shame and neverending shaming, constantly complaining, being embarrassed over our mistakes at the age when mistakes are normal part of growing up - since we do everything for the first time and we don't know better.
"Beliefs about yourself and other people trigger. " I learned these are not beliefs at all. It is program, it is conditioning like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals, it is hypnosis. It is MK Ultra programming. There is difference between beliefs. It feels like beliefs but are not. Due to trauma, we were programmed not to express ourselves and we must take responsibility for other people hostile accusations. That I should feel guilty for what is coming from other person's mouth. And this leads me to the point that official mentors and CBT are catastrophically ignoring: the other people. There are predators out there, mentally ill people who never seek help, psychopaths that cause brain damage in other people (google psychopath cause brain injury) - if you are exposed to them for too long. People can influence other people in detrimental ways. This information is extremely important to know, otherwise we will blame ourselves for triggers, flashbacks, anxiety and chronic worry. Unfortunately, CBT ignores this external factor and focus exclusively on the individual - which as I said creates additional damage in therapy, since it is the same as if you stay in Chernobyl and totally ignore toxic radiation that is destroying you - even though it is invisible. And in the same time you take pills and go to operation to treat cancer and symptoms.
"Want to be accepted" That is part of this imposed and implanted guilt. It is not something we developed out of thin air. It is programmed and we were hypnotized into serving and being subservient to other people - since we were being exposed to narcissist and psychopath(s).
"Never show your weakness" Again, this is trauma and programming from childhood by person who was mentally ill and projected their illness onto us.
"Belief has leg to support it" Human mind is more complex than this due to our body. Our body is (due to programming and training in dysfunctional childhood) is now pumping hormones and chemicals inside us whenever we stand up for ourselves - since we were not allowed in childhood. Programming was never detected by us because this is all we knew at the time, we could not compare it with normal and healthy environment so this is what we accepted as reality, and now we are hypnotized into fawning - having social anxiety, supported by body that pumps adrenaline when we want to talk honestly or express our emotions.
"Find events that support these limiting beliefs" I learned that in my case these limiting beliefs (which I actually see as programming and hypnosis) come in shape of imaginary audience (which Piaget discovered that children invent at higher stage of development) that is shaming me, mocking me is I do something out of ordinary.
"If we intentionally choose positive beliefs" I would be careful about this - this sounds like ritual. Rituals in response to anxiety leads to PureOCD, chronic anxiety, hypervigilance and chronic worry, hyperalert. Let's look it logically: how "normal" and "healthy" people without social anxiety function. Do they train themselves to be happy and positive all the time? They seem to work and interact with people by being honest and genuine, they do not analyze themselves into filtering their positive or negative thoughts. I would rather focus on anxiety - and let my Wu Wei concept lead me in thinking naturally. Negative and hurt and pain is part of life. It is unrealistic to expect that I will be happy always and that life will be a rose garden. What I would rather focus on is Behavioral activation therapy - that I push my brain out of the loop intentionally. This means I shift onto chores and tasks to be done, rather than being stuck in worry. Instead of default pessimism that I am optimist on force. This works only when I accept that I have brain injury inside me due to Complex Trauma and being exposed to psychopaths when growing up - and now my thinking process will default to immobility and catastrophizing - so it is my task to rely on my common sense and super-ego (my depository of knowledge) instead of my injured brain that will get stuck.
"you have to go out there" Yes, action is healthy and it should be goal. For example, if I have driving phobia - the only way to heal is to drive. However I see that if we ignore external factor - it is as I said being in contaminated area without protection. I see social anxiety as mismatch, wrong learned conditioning to other people who are predators - people who complain, nag and criticize others, ashame others in order to control them.
Let's look at it logically - social anxiety should not be about learning specific steps - because if we need instructions how to lead and manage life - then how all these dumb and less intelligent people succeed in life? They have no trouble at all of making a fool of themselves, talking freely and expressing themselves. And I see social anxiety exactly as that: to stop self-censoring ourselves, talk honestly, express our emotions without hysteria, not to interpret other people's temper tantrums as immediate danger or sign of their superiority where I must be inferior in response.
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"Once you believe that all of your feelings/reactions are completely valid, you'll be able to trust yourself in social interactions and give yourself that confidence." But this is exactly the problem. You can't believe. That is the core problem. You can't press that button to turn off anxiety. If you can - then you never had social anxiety to begin with. You probably had mild shyness that you mis-labeled as social anxiety due to google self diagnosis.
Social anxiety is trauma, it is part of Complex Trauma. This means your brain is programmed and instructed and hypnotized and conditioned into anxiety - like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals performing tricks for audience. It is programmed in your body - so your brain is not the only factor here. Your body releases chemicals and hormones when you want to go out there , when you want to stand up for yourself, when you want to talk - body pumps out: Oxytocin. Dopamine. Cortisol, Adrenaline Norepinephrine. Serotonin.
Therefore your own body is drugging you into social anxiety, it makes you addict to chronic worry. It is not something that you can press at button and stop simply by wishing it. As I said - if you are able to turn anxiety off - then you never had social anxiety to begin with. Your advice although is well meaning and with good intentions - actually creates more anxiety for people with real social anxiety - because now your quick and biased so called "advice" is actually telling people with real social anxiety that they are freaks. You on one hand is superior being that has magical powers to turn off anxiety, while all the people with real social anxiety somehow are freaks and inferior since they seem can't find that magical button where anxiety is turned off.
" I actually don't believe our bodies have irrational responses" That is because you never had social anxiety to begin with. Social anxiety is body thing. Trauma is trapped inside the body. Social anxiety is multiple multidimensional entity. It is not only being afraid of going to parties. And to make it even more complex, it is intertwined with persona and personality. So emotional brain surgery of removing anxiety as you proposed in your "advice" is the same as lobotomy - you becoming philosophical zombie.
" I actually don't believe our bodies have irrational responses" Another sign you never had social anxiety. People with social anxiety are very empathetic and they have no intentional irrational beliefs, they do not blame anyone. They learn to blame themselves due to people like you, who are making wrong diagnosis, biases and prejudices about subject that suppose for experts to talk about.
"it was mostly usually around strangers/people I didn't fully trust. I'd ruminate about how I messed up the interaction during/afterwards" Another sign you never had social anxiety. You only had mild shyness. Social anxiety is not anxiety from strangers. It is about society in general. Hence the name for social in social anxiety. It is feeling embarrassed and that other people hate you - even thinking your pet is hating you if you close the door for them. Again, this is due to trauma. Social anxiety is serious issue, it is not ego-centric worry limited to certain people who are slightly different to you, so your ego.centrism interprets it as danger. Social anxiety is chronic, hypervigilant, hyperalert state of not feeling comfortable with anyone, especially if they show slightest sign of criticism.
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"Fight and flight" There is also another F responses: Fawn is very interesting to talk about for socially anxious people.
"Something in your past you labelled as bad" Problem is that our brain is built to protect us from painful events, so the thing is that we are unable to remember what screw our mind. This is why Complex Trauma information helps.
"This person rejected me, I felt super embarrassed" Social anxiety is being exposed to mentally ill person for long time during growing up when we went through Piaget/Vigotsky developmental stages - and instead of completing the stages we got stuck. Being stuck is the theme. If we focus on symptom - it will not help. We got to start filter out toxic people out of our life. Our programming in our dysfunctional childhood make us to be subservient, fawn and inferior - thinking that all people are better and superior. That is social anxiety, not feeling fear. Feeling fear is background effect but it appears as prime focus to us.
"Going on a date" Social anxiety is not about having blockages about going to a party. Social anxiety is intolerance of people who nag, complain, criticize all the time, about irrelevant things, or they pinpoint our areas which are not perfect.
I would place social anxiety into being a part of Complex Trauma - whereas information about Complex trauma helps a lot - specifically it is about accepting our mistakes, accepting to be stupid, to not be perfect, to express our thoughts, opinions.
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"Asking questions in public" Social anxiety is fear from criticism. Trying to avoid other people temper tantrums, so being afraid not to bother other people. It is due to dysfunctional childhood where we were exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and now being exposed to narcissist caused brain injury that defaults thinking into being stuck and pessimism.
"Fear from what other people may think of you" I see it as implanted and imposed irrational guilt. It is not fear at all. It is programmed guilt, hypnosis of feeling guilty about anything I do. This guilt also means that I take responsibility for other people especially when they are hostile or whatever comes out of their mouth - that I must appease them, fix them in order not to feel their wrath.
"Do what you are scared off" This is exactly the problem. Social anxiety people get wrong message what they are afraid of. Society makes them think that going to parties is that what they are afraid of. That talking to strangers is what they are afraid of. -but no - it is no fear. It is guilt. Carrying guilt, rolling it as Sisyphus. Carrying the guilt on shoulder like Atlas. When we focus on this irrational guilt - instead of fears and symptoms as CBT and official health care mentors instructs us - we will get concrete results. Being honest, not to self-censor, express our emotions, opinions, react to life naturally without people pleasing and being pushover and fawning, without external reference locus of control.
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Social anxiety is part of Complex Trauma. Being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria, mentally ill people in young age when child brain is unable to process other than developing immature ego defense mechanisms.
Therefore " Safety behaviors like avoidance and escape behaviors" - is normal reaction to threat. Anyone with social anxiety is a sign that this individual was exposed to mentally ill person(s), person that never seek help, narcissists that lack empathy and being exposed to such dangerous person. People with social anxiety are good, healthy and normal - if they did not develop avoidance or escape - they would become narcissists themselves, they would develop fight response instead of fawning. It is natural and normal response to sick people I would not change it nor focus on it. I would add up on this - by recognizing I have inner resources and alternatives that as a child I was not aware to develop.
"Self-focused attention" This is not limited to socially anxious people. Anyone would self focus when something is wrong. Every horse think its pack is heaviest. I would refrain from shaming these normal reactions, as it imposes additional anxiety and expectance that I must be perfect person, which is unrealistic.
"Negative interpretations of the situation" It is guilt. Imposed and implanted guilt, irrational guilt, taking responsibility for aggressive and violent people. This is programming, hypnosis, conditioning as Pavlovian dogs or circus animals - so negative interpretations is something we were trained to interpret due to being exposed to mentally ill person(s) who never seek therapy.
It would come down to - accepting myself to be embarrassed, to speak my mind, to know I have brain injury due to being exposed to narcissist for long time, where my thoughts default to lethargy, being stuck, intrusive worry and catastrophizing. Where I can't rely on my body (which is pumping hormones and stress chemicals as programmed in childhood) and instead I have to rely on my common sense and decisions based on my super-ego (gathered collected knowledge) in order to get un-stuck.
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He talks about ambiguity. That social anxiety makes us as Sandra Bullock in Gravity. You feel like you float in space and - what you do with social anxiety is you cling on other people. External reference locus of control: we find our firm hold grip on other people. People pleasing, fawning, trauma bonding. We see others as superior. We never think well - maybe I can rely on myself. Maybe other people are wrong in many areas, I can't trust automatically everyone just because I feel scared and panicked. I can filter out other people out of my life - I do not need them even though I feel like I am floating in space where everything is ambiguous.
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@Onkruid Thanks! I would still stick with Complex Trauma information and I would encourage anyone still struggling with social anxiety out there to seek information about complex trauma - you will learn concepts such as external reference locus of control, where I see other people as gods, superior and better in anything, while I am inferior and I must seek guidance from others and where I see myself inept and can't trust my own judgement, experience and knowledge- since I put my own self worth in other people. I've been studying, reading and searching about social anxiety since late 1990s when it was called social phobia. You will also learn that the reason you can't shake off negative comments is due to body - our body is pumping hormones and chemicals inside us whenever we do something different than wrongly learned in childhood - for example standing up for myself, speaking up and even feeling guilty and ashamed by doing the right things in life. The body drugs us into social anxiety and codependency, since it was programmed to do this in childhood when we were conditioned to be subservient to narcissists and manipulators - and now we repeat the learned lessons as adults.
CBT did not help me, so I have huge dislike for CBT. It even made me more scared and afraid, since it focus on fears and tells me actually that there is something wrong with me and that I must focus on fears. CBT only created more panic and more reasons to be hypervigilant and chronically worried all the time - since it rejects myself as person and tries to implant some magical, non realistic persona of perfection that cannot exist in real world, due to external factors that exploit rigid systems, such as perfectionism is.
I do not say that CBT is fake or phony. CBT is telling everything clinically correct. CBT tells everything about as it should be and as it functions. It makes all the correct and right points - but it makes on huge mistake : CBT focuses on the tip of iceberg that is visible on the surface. By doing this, it over-estimates the huge chunk that is beneath deep under water.
CBT is like being robot - it is efficient and productive - but it is still a robot. No soul, no heart. Social anxiety is intertwined with persona and personality. That is why I would go along with Wu Wei concept - accepting myself totally as I am, and building up on that - with all mistakes and knowing that since I am socially anxious - this means I already have chip inside me that prevents me from making harm or being rude or violent - so I do not have to be afraid that my mistakes will be lethal or that I would lose control and become narcissist, Trump.
CBT is pinpointing the correct instructions but as Piaget and Vygotski discovered in kids - when children are told what to do, they lose their ability to be creative, to learn and to be intelligent being when they grow up - that will make sense and order of tasks and chaos that awaits them in life.
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"Smoke detector" I had to come back to comment this also. It is not only smoke detector. It is Litmus test, having superman super powers to see through other people, through their masks and their lies. We have ability to detect fake people, predators and manipulators - something that other people can fall to succumb as prey easily. Unfortunately, the society and mentors try to smother down this activity and ability, because it comes with price - being over.reactive and sensitive. But that is how sensitive instruments act and do - they are triggered easily - that is what makes them special and unique. Other people will of course never admit they are predators and that they have hidden agenda to exploit other people. Serial killer will never tell you if you ask him if he is sick. Drugs in your drink will never be admitted by date rapist. Machiavellian will never admit he has secret agenda to exploit you. Our social anxiety detects all these.
That is why we over-react, being exposed to narcissists and aggressive people, with lack of empathy and love, now as adults we pick up on people's bullsh*t very easily.
Amygdala is not negative or something to be removed. Our empathy and ability to feel emotions is located there. Brain scan of psychopaths show they have dysfunctional amygdala.
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People pleasing is not choice. People pleasing is indicator we had or we might have in present time a very dangerous person, psychopath, predator, narcissist, mentally ill person who never will seek help. People pleasing is hypnosis, programmed and learned helplessness, being conditioned like circus animal or Pavlovian dogs into toxic shame and guilt - when we feel disgusted by ourselves due to this toxic shame and guilt we will naturally place our self worth in other people hands - that is called external reference locus of control. Trauma bonding, seeking validation from others, since our self worth is placed in external, other people. We match our emotions to others, fix others when they feel broken, wrong, mistaken, taking responsibility when they are hostile. This is program, hypnosis, this is not choice. Hypnosis means it is run automatically, without thinking, it comes natural since we never learned about alternatives when we were growing up. We internalized toxic shame and succumb to immature ego defense mechanisms such as introjection (soaking up other people as if they are gods - whatever they say do act is our ultimate truth and we must never confront or disobey it).
If we focus on our feelings - fears and anxiety - we ignore the real trigger: other people. Observing others as superior is real problem here. I would focus on this trauma bond with other people and start to place back our self worth where it naturally belongs: to ourselves. This means being comfortable with our mistakes and relying on our common sense and experience and super-ego (collected knowledge).
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I've been struggling from social anxiety since 1989, been learning the concepts and information about SAD ever since 1996 - long ago even when it was called social phobia. So I can say... CBT does not help.
CBT made me feel even more fears and anxiety, and it turned me into people pleaser, pushover and fawning, external reference locus of control since the basic message is that problem is symptom, not toxic environment.
CBT focus on symptoms - while social anxiety is part of complex trauma - being exposed to mentally ill person in young age when child brain is unable to process psychological abuse other than internalizing toxic shame and through immature ego defense mechanism.
CBT is not fake, it tells truth, however it does not help because it scans only what is visible on the surface, and it totally ignores everything that lies beneath the surface of iceberg. CBT is like Nurse Ratched, clinically correct however it is detrimental to patients since it lacks empathy and lacks love - exactly the same thing that trauma is made of.
2:01 "social anxiety - fear with being with other people" Right at the start - this is false information. They got the basis wrong at the start. Social anxiety is intolerance of criticism, potential or real
4:01 "body reacts to adrenaline" here it goes. Yacking about symptoms. Body is conditioned to release hormones and chemicals in dysfunctional childhood, it drugs us into social anxiety. Also, there is 4F trauma responses. Fight or flight are only 2F responses. There is also fawn.
9:00 "party" So I see where Peterson got his bias about equating social anxiety with going to a party. Social anxiety is not about fear from parties nor public speech, it is inability to tolerate criticism.
12:14 "They don't like me" Nope, typical thought is they hate me. The socially anxious person will not tell what is going on, due to embarrassement and inability to describe what they are feeling and thinking- and CBT take everything what socially anxious person said - taking it for granted, without noting that typical thoughts are much deeper.
14:00 "Exposure therapy" That is what CBT is doing wrong. They try to fix symptoms. Phobia was removed from social anxiety - because exposure did not help. This is not phobia. Therefore exposure will not help. It will only make person people pleaser, compliant, NPC background character that blends into crowd, pushover and codependent. That is what CBT does with its limited scope of what is exactly problem with SAD.
16:44 "why social fear persists" "they become self conscious rather than focus on other people" "Clark & Wells 1993" This is definitely where Jordan Peterson got his false ideas about social anxiety. Some incomplete and false research from 1993. People in general will focus on themselves. This is nothing special or intrinsical to social anxiety. When people are in panic, they focus on themselves, this is normal reaction to abnormal situation, abnormal people and abnormal events. Brain functions this way, it suppose to focus on danger and what is perceived dangerous.
19:04 "observer perspective" "it's all their fears visualized" Yes and no. It is flashbacks, flash bulb images, triggers. It is imaginary audience that Piaget described as development stage in childhood development. Social anxiety started in childhood so this part of imaginary audience is messed up, it is being stuck at this stage of growing up. So it will appear as people mocking or criticising the person.
21:10 "Safety behaviour to prevent, lot of strategies from happening" These are immature ego defense mechanism, like introjection, soaking in other people to appease them in order to prevent their attack and violence. Child is unable to process psychological abuse so it develops that non functional mechanisms that stays stuck into adulthood. He does not mention that mechanism at all. He focus on symptoms - fears persist he said. He does not talk about external reference locus of control, where I put my self worth in other people in order to appease others.
24:11 "Do high socially anxious individuals have an internal attentional bias" No, socially anxious people focus on other people due to internalized toxic shame which tells them they are inept- to they seek self worth in other people, seeing other people as gods and whatever they say it is ultimate truth.
25:43 "we rack up the threat" "detect threat in external and internal" "they become more external" "high anxious person goes opposite, they lock onto themselves, self monitoring" This is reaction to threat. This is not being self involved - this is effect found in North Korea, where you are not allowed to look at the dictator, but your whole life is devoted to dictator. This is the same as if you conclude that people in North Korea are self involved because they do not look at the Leader. They do not look up because they are in panic.
29:26 "tracked back this image to childhood" He is describing trigger. This is CPTSD. Flashbacks. Social anxiety made a great twist with official mental health industry - CBT - by playing right into its anxiety, twirling it around its finger. CBT is like donkey and social anxiety is like carrot in front of it, and it plays with it, just as its with its human host. This is social anxiety - constant mislabeling and wrong information, misplaced and wrong description of problem. It is like virus program or snake - it is illusive and you can't catch it without anti-virus program. CBT is not one step ahead of social anxiety, it tags along wherever social anxiety leads it to.
31:36 "safety behaviours" Nervous system is doing exactly what it suppose to do. CBT is trying to fix something that is normal. This is analogy to Hollywood specialists who are performing unnecesary plastic surgeries to Hollywood celebreties, that are convincesd they are deformed and that one more plastic surgery will make them beautiful - while in fact they are becoming more and more deformed by all those unnecesary surgeries.
34:15 "deep breaths" Now CBT is trying to fix symptoms - which leads actually to PureOCD, rituals to calm down the anxiety. CBT joins into social anxiety hysteria and plays along instead of being one step ahead of SAD.
35:16 "we let them experience that" "not trying to control it" Again, CBT is going along with social anxiety instead of being one step ahead. With advice like this, it is not describing social anxiety as product of panic, and thus it gives SAD energy.
36:30 "not think topic, just say what comes up in their head" But socially anxious people self-censor themselves, they shut up. Especially when they attract narcissists and aggressive people who are attracted to open and friendly people who fawn to others. People with social anxiety can't talk. In early stage it is about even being afraid of talking via computer, internet in chat or comments.
37:49 "video - you can see yourself blushing" Again CBT is playing along with SAD. On one hand CBT accuse SAD to be self-focused, and now they instruct and direct socially anxious people to be self-focused! This is detrimental result of CBT, they come with bias, wrong concusions about social anxiety - and then enforce instructions that are doing exactly what CBT describes as an issue - being focused on yourself.
40:03 "I'll try to say what comes on my mind, don't focus on myself" Well, Sherlock, what happens when you are around toxic people? People who mock you? Pick point at your flaws? When they criticize your mistakes and things you cannot perform perfectly for whatever reason? CBT totally ignores predators and focus on individual. On one hand CBT says it is wrong to focus on yourself, and in their therapy they play out their therapy by totally ignoring external factor (narcisissts). This results in people pleasing, fawning, being pushover. CBT does not understand that socially anxious person is programmed to place their self worth in other people. Therefore, they self-censor themselves and they are not aware what they want. They tune and align their life on other people, what will please other people and appease them. CBT does not tell that individual can trust themselves, they shift focus on other people. They flip flop condition and CBT is telling exactly wrong instructions how to deal with social anxiety. It will work - you will not feel anxiety if you please other person. IF you fix them - but this will make you codependent, person without future, person without goals, person without your own life.
45:10 "What would happen if that would be case - sweating" CBT is going along with what is visible at the surface of iceberg. This is great example. Sweating is superficial. The real fear is other people's criticism, nagging and complaining, pinpointing mistakes and flaws and controlling the individual to be subservient and obeying the manipulator. It is about the fear of other people throwing temper tantrum, their hysteria and mocking.
52:04 "cognitive approach talks about people seeing their thoughts as hypothesis, client and therapist as scientific team working to find what's correct and what isn't" I would see psychology first and foremost giving ability to the target to realize he can do life on his own, that he can manage life on his own, with or without fears, with or without mistakes. That I do not need spend money, time and energy on figuring out complex instructions that are based on symptoms, but to realize my life is here at stake. My goals, my dreams, what I want from life, what makes me happy and where should my life go in what direction. Talking about symptoms and calming myself down is loop. It is useless. It is hamster wheel. It is being stuck. And that is what I see current CBT is doing - it enables socially anxious person to get stuck. It equips the person into action only to be able to go to job and back home, but there is no grand plan. Perhaps I might own a business. Perhaps if I live in toxic country - I should save up money and leave the sick environment. CBT is simply telling - be people pleaser, be part of groupthink and herd and obey the system. Don't come up with your own inventions and ideas. That is detrimental side of CBT, it is creating zombies.
53:43 "But was really very concerned about her evaluation by her peers" This is mild shyness. They are treating people with shyness, not social anxiety. Social anxiety has nothing to do with neutral people. It is about threat, danger. That what makes up anxiety - something that is dangerous. Not bunch of people standing around you. It is about aggressive unkind violent brutal and uncaring people who display temper tantrums and try to control you through ashaming you and playing with imposed and implanted irrational guilt. That is social anxiety. There is no evaluation. There is death sentence by peers. That is SAD. Other people who character assasinate you. Beat the dead dog. Over and over again.
58:00 "Afraid of not interested in them" He is describing external refernece locus of control. Fawning. People pleasing. Trauma bonding. And he does not mention toxic shame that is key player in external validation because person with toxic shame is convinced he is inept totally and unable to manage life.
59:20 "some of fears actually come true" It is having ability to detect fake people, manipulators and narcissists.
1:00:35 "those images, you have to go to past" Flashbacks, triggers. This is Complex trauma.
1:01:03 "some people still find they get this intrusive image in their head" These are powered by the body - chemicals and hormones that influence the mood and makes brain to focus on danger and you can't shake it off. Body is drugging us into social anxiety. And CBT does not talk about that. CBT is about cognitive - yet they do not scan the brain to search if there is real brain injury caused by narcissistic abuse!
1:03:40 "There's no point in trying things that haven't worked" CBT in its current form is not working. It adds up to anxiety.
1:05:39 "GPU often responds by sending them along for lot of unnecessary brain scans" What?! This is necessary. If there is brain injury due to being exposed to narcissistic abuse - then we can know for sure our thinking process will default to intrusive worry, being stuck and pessimism. This is like conspiracy - that CBT is trying to make people into obedient slaves who obey authority and cuts off their ability to think critically and express their opinion that is different than narcissists, manipulators and predators concerned only about making money and exploiting others.
1:05:49 "there is evidence that if people overcome their anxiety problem they no longer have those excess investigations" Just horrible. This person is putting saving government money over mental health. This is what is wrong with narcissism in government, psychopaths who are running the country.
1:07:30 "we can test audience if you disturbed them" Audience is filled with people who are not predators. Problem is external factor. CBT is ignoring sick and aggressive people who influence others into submission and fears and shame.
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y ok, I have to be honest here, this is not personal attack against you. I was thinking the same way as you did, and it makes me mad that we are being tricked by medical community, mentors who are not helpful at all and self-help guide that is focused on making money by selling more non functional advice that does not work in real life rather than resolving anxiety.
Please allow me to explain:
"Rather think about helping others and become interested in what others are doing " We already to help others. This is why we have social anxiety. IT is sign we place others as our prime focus. We have empathy enough. There is no need to add up more to it. The society is doing us disservice - since they do not understand social anxiety. They convince us that we do not care for other people and that we have to help others. This leads to people pleasing and codependency. IT is similar to movie Clockwork Orange (1971) where the main character is hypnotized and brainwashed into serving others - so when he encounters hooligans he is unable to defend himself because he is programmed to help others and perceive any action from him as being rude and unacceptable.
"make is assuming that they are constantly being observed and criticized by others. It is almost like they think that they are the centre of attention of everyone else." This is general description and it is not quite accurate. Thus it is misleading. Again, once more, the society gives false diagnosis, false description of condition that is observed without empathy or any real scientific research. Yes, socially anxious assumes that is being observed and criticized in cases when there is no one around. It is imagining imaginary audience that is telling and instructing us how we suppose to behave in order to avoid shame, shaming and pain. It is as if there is a general rule how to behave and act and be in society and we must follow this magic, imaginary guideline - which basically means that we do nothing except hide in cave and not move at all. What happens when we do meet someone who is really criticizing us? Someone who is unfair and points at our real mistakes, flaws that we can't fix? What about narcissists and manipulators who are parasiting over our fears and urge to be perfect - so they gaslight us into being people pleaser, codependent to their drama, controlled by their temper tantrums. Beneath centre of attention is guilt. Beneath the fear is guilt. Irrational guilt - imposed and implanted by mentally ill people that were close to us when we grow up.
I would rather focus on this imposed guilt rather than other people. Rather than being worried about spotlight effect. I see symptoms and panic as normal reaction to abnormal people, abnormal events and abnormal situations.
Focusing on symptoms and panic and then drawing conclusions that I must fawn and serve others in order to heal anxiety is surprisingly social anxiety itself. It will not heal social anxiety, it is PureOCD ritual that will bring only more worry, chronic intrusive thoughts, hypervigilance and hyper-alertness.
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(4.1.2022)
My reply got deleted unfortunately. I will sum it up: CBT is pathologizing and scrutinizing and toxic shaming the natural response to perceived danger.
Instead of focusing on the source of danger, it is doing damage by dehumanizing people by stigmatizing the victim. This horrible research will go in history as mistake. It is literally trying to cut out victim into shape that will fit the narrative of how person ought to express fears and anxiety in proper manner - by not showing any symptoms (!). CBT is blaming the victim for the abuse by ignoring the abuse took place at all.
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(5.1.2022)
There are 4F responses: the fourth one is Fawn. It is very important response to mention since it is connected to people with social anxiety: being people pleaser, pushover and codependent once you force yourself in social situations with CBT instructions that helped you to calm or ignore fear and anxiety. People pleasing and fawning are result of CBT. Not mentioning fawning does disservice to people who are stuck in external reference locus of control, and thus have no information that they put their self worth in other people.
"Your sensory fragments misinterpret what is normal and what is threat. Normal circumstances are seen as dangerous. Someone being upset, raises voice – you see it as dangerous. " This is super interesting part, that I did not focus before nor I remember anyone with CPTSD videos mention this part. So I would stop right here. What about toxic environment? What about people who are actually nervous themselves, what about narcissistic and their unrealistic expectations about life and people around them, easily irritated by other people and aggressive, manipulators and mentally ill people who are attacking verbally others and expect perfectionism from others - and they verbalize their demands on easy targets (someone who fawns and shut up to them)? What about people who nag, complain all the time? What about people who exploit you and constantly criticize you? What about people who are not following unwritten social rules and they pinpoint your mistakes and flaws - not as a way that is constructive - but being unreasonable: for example demanding from you that you work and do job faster, walk faster - as if I am their slave and they are feudal masters with whip? What happens in this situations where there are real jerks - people who are not "normal" and "healthy" and non dangerous? This part bugs me, because I see it in CBT too - where sensitive and scared person is being told it is in their imagination, that they are fantasizing threats - while in fact there are real toxic people in their close midst? Then I would say that the reaction is totally valid. In fact, it would be very detrimental to blame it on the victim, since it would cause moral injury and inability to fight back and to warn the other person to stop it.
Also what about highly sensitive people? Elaine Aron again and again mentions this phenomena in her book about HSP. She says that society will judge sensitive people are over-reactive, which is label and it is mis-label. It is self fulfilling prophecy. Whereas she says sensitivity is neutral and our reaction are triggers inside like a tool detecting fake and abnormal people. Society is the one that gives false messages that if we feel heart beat - that we interpret this as over-reaction. And this label of over-reaction is doing secondary damage that ends up with inertia, blame, moral injury and toxic shame, feeling wrong by default.
"Your brain is imprinted in being stressed and over-emotional" I would be careful with this. In my case I followed CBT advice and I actually managed to stifle being hysterical and in drama mode actually. If someone done something that I felt wrong (someone being hysterical, judgemental, rude, aggressive and even violent) I would smother my natural reaction (to yell back at them) and I was very pleasant and kind to them, smiling back even when they accuse me of being weak and "without spine". I ended up being people pleaser and pushover and codependent - since now I believed them that my opinions do no matter and that I am inept to lead life and manage life - since I would not know how to react to stress other than smiling, being calm and always positive.
"Now your brain is wired for constant stress and to be prepared for any threat" Ok, but as I said, being calm in my case did not help. It did not relieved me from hypervigilance and chronic worry. I ended up with chronic anxiety with all CBT instructions to smother and stifle fears and panic attacks and cognitive distortions. This part bugged me for decades - and without CPTSD information I could not explain why, and what can I do about getting rid of feeling constantly under potential threat with flashbacks coming at me as intrusive worry. With CPTDS information last year I finally learned this is due to brain injury. Being exposed to narcissistic abuse leaves a mark on the brain - brain injury: which default my thinking process onto being stuck (having intrusive PureOCD worry) and pessimism, I end up in loop trying to solve potential or past aggression and incidents while procrastinating and being immobile. With brain injury information now I know I have to step out of the car and give it a push - which means to rely on my common sense instead of waiting for my brain to feel calm, good and positive - which will never happen due to brain injury. Instead of external reference locus of control I can put back self worth where it belongs: back to myself, trusting my instincts, opinions , super ego (collection of data I gathered, inner and external knowledge), experience including being ok with mistakes and embarrassing myself.
"So you have constant feeling that you are unsafe and that is why you are hyper-active" In my case no - I was not hyper-active on the outside at all. I would shut up and self -censor myself. I would not engage in conflict. I would not defend myself when people accused me of unfair and false accusations. I would smile when people would yell and scream at me. I would do anything not to rock the boat. From the outside I was anything but hyper-active since I would follow CBT advice to stifle panic attack symptoms and regard my worries as fantasy and something to be crushed and stifled. Inside I would feel shame and have toxic shame, believing I am inept to live. I would believe other people are superior, while anything I think, do or act is wrong by default so I must trust others. So I would be careful with labels about sensitivity other people feel. I would not give labels so much easily. It can have detrimental effect on the person. They will not become anti-hyperactive if you simply label it. They will take it as toxic shame, that there is something horribly wrong with them that cannot be cured, since it is not. Having ability to react to environment is special gift, I would call it even super-power. I would not pathologize it and scrutinize it. Hyper-active people are those who jump around, like William Shatner, they talk fast and cannot be at one place for one second. What I have seen in other people who deal with trauma, with sensitive people is that they are anything but "hyper-active".
"Signs of stress - memory problems, brain fog, buzzing, tired, auto immune, anxiety, numbness, rage, guilt, shame, ruminating, constant fear, adrenaline rushes, hypervigilance, worthlessness" I would add up to the list: Fawning. People pleasing. Inferiority complex - believing that other people hold power and knowledge of universe, that other people have absolute truth, while I am totally inept and my opinion does not count at all. Also, again - I would be careful with this list. This is not specific or related to trauma. These are all normal reactions to abnormal people, abnormal events and abnormal situations. As I understand Elaine Aron in her book about HSP - if we label all these stress responses as dangerous, negative , wrong and something to kill - we are actually creating additional mental illness and plethora of neurosis and additional mental conditions that are detrimental. It is normal to feel rage if someone mocks you and accuse you of unfair and false accusations. It is normal to have memory problems when you amygdala is hijacked. That is why it is called hijacking. This is not option or something I choose - this is automatic body response. This is not something I would be ok and happy and healthy if I did not have it. As I said - I would end up being easily exploited by others since I would trust anyone, I would believe other people are super and great and that there are no Machiavellian out there with manipulation skills with their Dark Triad and Dark psychology ready to prey on easy targets who just get rid of their stress response into bliss and eternal happiness.
"You need to rewire your brain, you need to calm your body" Yeah this is what I was afraid you are going to. Nope. In my case this leads to people pleasing. You never mentioned Fawn response at all. If you are in toxic environment, this calm strategy is the last thing that will help you. IT will make you immobile, scared of bullies and manipulators. You would never plan to leave toxic environment since you would convince yourself that your stress is problem and not mentally ill people around you. I know what you want to say here. Your hypothesis is that now in present time there are no dangerous people around us. You are saying that we are over-reacting,. That is true - at certain point. But I would not pathologize stress response. I would focus rather on immature ego defense mechanism - which are childish response to stress. Like Introjection - which is connected to fawning.
People with CPTSD feel anxiety. Majority of them are already calm people. They do not need extra calm. Also - Forcing yourself to breath and breathing exercises can lead to PureOCD - having ritual to calm down anxiety, this is dangerous since it paradoxically makes you stuck in anxiety.
"Get to core beliefs, core story that is causing us to get stuck in trauma" Again, in my case this never worked. I learned about this Core story long time ago. I have been avoidant and having social anxiety since 1989, I've been reading and soaking all information related to is since 1996 so I can say that I have 30+ years of experience with this breathing exercises and core beliefs. Core beliefs work if you know what you focus on. I cannot do this on my own. Left on my own devices, we will be prone to immature ego defense mechanism. In my case, I knew very early on that my core belief is that I believe other people automatically and I care what other people (anyone, people in general, total strangers or anyone I knew) what they think - I would see it as ultimate truth without ever doubting them that they may be sick or manipulators - I would perceive it as my order and command and truth I must adopt. Only last year I learned concept called external reference locus of control (I learned it thanks to finding out about CPTSD) - and this is when I realized that this what I had all the time related to my core belief is called in medical term as "trauma bonding". So knowing my core belief did nothing - it only made me aware that I am freak, that there is something terribly wrong with me and it enforced toxic shame and it enforced belief that I must trust and focus on other people and believe them, since I am wrong by default. Me knowing my core belief did not attain me enlightenment what to do about it, it did not gave me anti-dote. I simply could not stop caring what other people think at the press of the button. Now with CPTSD information I know this is because my body is working against me - since it is conditioned like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals into subservience by pumping chemicals and hormones whenever I would try to do something correct (like standing up for myself) - I would get rush of stress hormones affecting my mood and triggering my guilt and toxic shame - to feel guilty for speaking up, for example.
"You can reconstruct the trauma" I cannot do this only by knowing core belief. I can do this only when I discover I have CPTSD in ther first place. With knowledge that I have social anxiety - the resources and data related to social anxiety do not mention CPTSD at all, they do not mention emotional dysregulation at all. They do not mention hypnosis and conditioning and programming in childhood to feel guilt whenever I would express myself freely.
"Feel the emotions you are experiencing" I write blog and through comments like this one. But writing is not the only deed. There has to be action, too. And there has to be conclusion. For example you mentioned at the start that we misinterpret non-dangerous events and people as dangerous. But you never said what happens when you are indeed in environment that is toxic and where people gaslight you. You can write and journal this all life- but writing will not help here. What to do in situations where you need to get into conflict. Where the other person is not reasonable- I see information about narcissism and dark psychology as helpful. I Learned for example that narcissists invent their own world, since they are mentally sick, and thus you cannot reason talk or argue with them, since they are always one up step ahead. Without this information I would feel compelled to talk with them - while normal and healthy decision would be to leave them and avoid them. CPTSD will make us codependent. This is what it makes it complex. There are additional issues - in my case fawning, people pleasing, trying to fix others, being different enough and diplomatic enough to attract narcissists like moth to a flame.
"Feel those emotions" Again, you are like CBT focusing on panic symptoms and thus you are pathologizing them. While in reality, there really might be external factor out there - people who demand response, correct decision about them, not us breathing and writing journal or pretending we have no issues or believing in salvation fantasy (which you never mentioned it even though it is part of CPTSD) believing I will never feel scared in my life ever again, or that I must feel happy 24/7 which is unrealistic and it would be abnormal.
"You are not worthless person they try to make you out to be" I understand where you are coming from, with this calm strategy. But in my case, as I said without repeating myself - this leads to people pleasing and fawning and allowing others to exploit me, to be without borders. I would be careful with employing calm strategy. Sometimes in certain situations we need rage, we need to feel anxiety - otherwise we would never leave toxic people. We would come back to them due to guilt. Instead of calm strategy I would focus rather on guilt. I would focus rather on trusting my instincts and I would rather work on changing my perspective by looking at my stress response as something neutral, as Elaine Aron said - rather than something to be killed off by breathing exercises immediately.
"by reminding myself I am safe now" I actually had chance to test this - I noticed one older guy in supermarket yelling at clerk to hurry up - and my triggers went haywire just to witness it since I would imagine myself in place of this girl. This older guy did not curse her and he did not explicitly tell her to hurry up. Instead he used passive aggressive style and said very rudely: "Don't hurry up, you are young, save your legs, there is no need that you are fast" Witnessing this raised my stress response onto rage and panic. And I would tell myself - I am safe, I am just over-reacting to something I seen, it does not affect me- but I imagined what and how would I respond if I was that girl? I would find it very hard to calmly tell him to mind his own business with adding please and thank you. I remembered all the times in my life where I was faced with such jerks and I would shut up to them, I would not say anything. Or even in rare cases where I would say something they would throw temper tantrums. So no, in my case, telling myself I am safe does not work. There are really toxic people out there. Shutting up and pretending life is great and there are no manipulators or psychopaths out there will cause moral injury. I think this is that created brain injury in the first place. Since as children we could not process what is happening as something that is abnormal, so we pretended we are safe. I think this advice is not good. It is part of trauma-
"I'm safe. I'm not helpless anymore, I'm okay, Repeating this can help you work through and feel the emotion as you feel genuinely safe" Ok, this is where it gets complex. Ok - I am not helpless anymore. So...I can yell back at people? I can stand up to them? What if I get fired? And if I live in toxic country, where your job paycheck is very small. And where you cannot just get job at whim. And where people in general are passive aggressive or outright aggressive so they curse and exploit you, work over time without pay, where they belittle you and mobbing is accepted as normal? What then? Living in the streets as homeless person will calm me down? What to do when your Maslow needs are not met unless you are compliant and subservient and exploited? Maslow needs: finances, job, shelter, service - that you depend on other person who is mentally ill, aggressive, manipulative and harmful to you in exchange for those needs? How can you be safe in such situations? How can you convince yourself to be safe? You can't.
"You want to create that comforting feeling, safe feeling that's what's most important" In my experience this urge to create safety creates paradoxically anxiety, more anxiety, it creates chronic worry and hypervigilance, hyperalertness, Polyvagal theory (which you did not mention at all even though it is crucial to understand CPTSD emotional dysregulaton). I know what you try to describe. You are talking about feeling confident and feeling good about yourself and that belief you can manage and handle life. But you cannot create that out of thin air. You cannot trick your subconsciousness by make belief and pretending. I learned you create this safety and feeling complete and competent - by actions. By resolving abuse in real time and resolving past abuse by deep forgiving to past jerks and abusers from past (forgiving - which you did not mention).
"that does not mean that you're going to go and be around abusive people" Yep, this is problem. What to do in situations where you have to be around abusive people? Where your Maslow needs are connected to abusive people? What then? That is problem. Sometimes we cannot choose people around us. And urge to control other people is cognitive distortion. Urge to judge people is us being victimizers.
"Things that are supposed to not be a threat won't be anymore" I got this part. What about things that are suppose to be a threat. That is problem. What to do in real danger. What to do with narcissists you have to contact and interact with. With manipulators. With exploiters, with people who appear friendly and they suck information from us only to use it against us at later stage - such as borderliners - when they throw temper tantrums and their endless drama?
My final comment is - I would be careful about our natural responses before manically blaming them as sacrificial lambs for Complex Trauma. Our persona and personality is intertwined with it. It also holds energy to build borders and to give us capacity to react to toxic people. Removing it would be the same as removing immune system out of our body because it occasionally react to hay fever and gives us allergy. We might end up with virus inside us without having ability to detect is as virus.
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Amazing topic and message. I would add to see toxic shame as hallucination. And hypnosis - something that is imposed and implanted onto us. That we need to snap out of it. I read about toxic shame in late 1990s thanks to Bradshaw's book. However only last year I realized it is about discovery that I put external reference locus of control onto other people - seeing others as superior, that they must give me guidance and instructions about anything in life, whereas anything I think is inferior and wrong by default. I think other people with toxic shame do the same - we put our self worth into other people and trauma bond with them, since we cannot hold our self worth where is naturally belongs; inside us. As said in video, it is about being ok with our mistakes and with being embarrassed and making fool of myself in the process of any action I take, do, speak..
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(6.1.2022)
"When you don't respect your own boundaries.." I learned the central problem is that I either do not know what I want - or I even do not allow myself to express, think or engage in what I want. I put my self worth to other people, external reference locus of control. So I have no idea or I do not focus on what I like, want, need, prefer - or I label it as weird, stupid, non compliant, not approved - for example, spending time alone, I label it as introversion. Sitting along - I label it as weird so I force myself to people please others in order I am with them instead of being alone, which is scrutinized by toxic society as weird. I would focus on what I want, need, wish - and then let boundaries come naturally. After I realize I am not weird, stupid or abnormal for being myself. Toxic shame is hell.
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Thank you. This is something that is central blockage in my life and all trauma and distortions (social anxiety, avoidance, panic attacks) spring from this area.
From my experience, for years I did exactly as you said - I did not engage. Because I read a lot of resources and they all are saying as you - Don't engage. But... I did one crucial mistake. I believed narcissist. I believe their lies. I place my self worth in other people due to toxic shame (believing I am inept) and I believed anything other person is saying acting, thinking, doing. I introject all that as my command, something I must obey. The result was devastating for me. I ended up with crippling anxiety and inability to move, chronic worry and hyperalerness, learned helplessness. Because they would yell, scream, have random temper tantrums, demand perfections and pinpoint my honest unintentional mistakes and flaws as catastrophes and theme for mockery and sarcasm, putting me down. And I smiled back at them. I shut up. I self-censor myself and do anything in my power to people please them and be pushover and codependent on them. I became totally passive in belief I am inept to manage my life without support of other people, telling me what to do. So - I would never have ability to say "This conversation is out of control, I am ending this conversation." I made only half of deal - I would not engage, but I did not believe in my values, my worth. That is what twisted me. Without CPTSD information I would never learned external reference locus of control - and without this information I never realized that I can and I am allowed to put self worth back to where it belongs - to myself. That puzzle was missing for me. Social anxiety and CBT and avoidance advice (official ones) are supporting idea to not engage and to be peaceful, and calm. But the are totally hiding the most crucial information - Complex Trauma that is programming people like me into toxic shame and placing our self worth in other people's hands which creates hypnotic guilt. With SAD information I never learned that I will feel guilty whenever I do something correct like speaking out the truth and being honest to narcissists and manipulators and predators. That being transparent, honest and authentic will both cause me internal guilt and external wrath from aggressive people.
"Go to other room" I never left. I was programmed by toxic society to believe in toxic masculinity - that I was suppose to be strong and endure someone being jerk and maniac. That if I leave the room that this would be some kind of a sign I was weak and loser.
"Ignore it and refuse to engage" Yeah, I could not ignore it. Without Complex Trauma information I never knew this is because my body is pumping chemicals and hormones that keep me addicted to codependency. From my unaware perspective, other person is god and I am inept inferior being that is unable to live without being told and described who I am and that I need what I perceived as superior other people to tell me what should I think or do.
"We teach people how to be with us." Yeah, me being silent, shutting up to false and unfair accusations, staying with them when they are acting out, throwing temper tantrum hysteria, I taught them that it is ok to treat me like crap. I stayed due to Maslow needs (money, job, service, help) that I would otherwise lose. I believed that I will lose my job if I say something about their hysteria or leave conversation when they are being hysterical.
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You are making great remark. You said: " People ask you for a favor. It can be a place to live or whatever." Yeah- and I noticed that we agree because of two distorted mechanisms: 1) imposed and implanted guilt - that we feel guilt when we are honest, genuine and authentic and transparent - which leads me to second one: 2) that we have no idea what our values are to begin with. We have no idea what is worthy inside us, about us, around us. We place our self worth in other people and in external. For example - as you said someone asks us to do a favor like you really don't want to - but you agree. We agree when we do not want to because we do not perceive at that particular moment what will be the consequences of saying yes. Will this be inconvenient to us - we do not see it, but instead we see it from other person's perspective: that they have problem and I must fix this problem for them. That I am codependent so I fix other people's lives. Because later, in their mind I would be seen as superman. That they would label me as nice or good person. This is important to me - what other people will think about me, and not what is objective reality: for example that I do not have real and objective resources to support and help them. So I am governed by other person's perspective. This is a major problem because we give other people ability and power to rule over us. We are hypnotized into being subservient because of our ability to have extreme empathy at our own cost.
A lot of people have problem for being ego-centric, inability to put yourself in other people's shoes. We on the other hand go to another extreme - we are constantly in other people's shoes. We are located in other people's minds and we try to govern and manage our life through having our own capital in other people's territory. So we go against what we want, what we need. And what is correct and right. Taking advantage, being people pleaser and being pushover is not healthy - but from our perspective it is. And all this because we were conditioned like Pavlovian dogs and circus animals into being a good nice obeying people where the prime goal is to be nice good person and being perceived as good and nice person. Anything other than that is catastrophe.
I would focus on this imposed guilt. Unfortunately official resources like CBT focus on panic symptoms and anxiety - and not onto this guilt, where hypervigilance is springing from in the first place.
In your example - healthy approach would be to stop and think through am I able to support this person, instead of automatically saying yes. We are unable to do this, when we are unaware that we have this hypnotic guilt inside us guiding our actions.
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Guilt is hypnotic - it is imposed and implanted especially in CPTSD. IT is not something you choose stop feeling and believing. In fact, you end up feeling worse, since now you know there is something intrinsically wrong with you, and that there are people out there (usually people born with silver spoon in their mouth) who can regulate their emotions well.
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" you have to stand strong and express yourself fully to feel safe in any environment." What about toxic environment? Where people simply turn their back and walk away from you- so you even cannot start to defend yourself. Where people mock you for being honest, your mistakes and flaws? Where people gaslight you. Where people act as friends only to extract data from you, and later on use the same as weapon of shaming and guilt tripping whenever they feel urge to create drama at whim? Where you deal with narcissists with whom you cannot communicate, where you cannot bring arguments? And I know what you will say - leave that environment. But what happens when your Maslow needs are connected with it (job, security, help, shelter, finances)? When you live in corrupt country where you cannot simply change job? Where your current job is not enough to give you enough support already?
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"Chronic stress - people accepted living in it" I disagree. Human brain is very functional in detecting even potential or similar danger as the one experienced in the past, and protecting itself (thus PureOCD). Thus people will naturally move away from danger. And that is how socially anxious people turn towards Avoidance as natural way to heal stress. And you have not mention how to remove it. Just being aware of chronic stress does nothing. I learned that belief that there is some salvation out there how to live paradoxically creates chronic stress. Therefore, accepting reality as-it-is is anti-dote to chronic stress. If we pretend we don't have problem, we will never plan to escape it.
"shame caught us in loop" Again, you presume you can remove shame by simply being aware of it. Unfortunately - you can't - especially if it is part of Complex trauma: being programmed inside you like virus program that get executed along with triggers, learned helplessness, being trained like circus animal and Pavlovian dogs : it is not something you can turn off at the press of button.
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You are being triggered. I've been following Rhoberta for year now. She is being honest and authentic. She is not name calling us. She is not abusing us. she is not toxically ashaming us. This is narrative that your trigger is talking and explaining it to you, it twists your reality and perception. Mine too, when I over-react. I know how it feels. You feel attacked. In this case, your instinct is wrong. Your explanation is wrong.
Ok. With that being said - Yes, sometimes when we are immobile due to trauma it does feel like being basket case. IF we deny our reality we will not be able to change it. The next time someone is rude I will not shut up - because I know if I resort to people pleasing it will me being basket case for the rest of my life. So yeah, in this case being honest helps. IT is not a way to belittle you or re-traumatize you. You are simply over-reacting. And again, that is ok too. It is totally, normal reaction to abnormal people from our past.
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Yess! It is important to highlight and note that when we have fawning - that it means there is (hi)jackal on the other side. I call it external factor myself because it is something external to common sense, external to health, external to anything normal: predators, exploiters, narcissists, users, abusers, parasites, emotional vampires, borderliners...
Many mentors, resources are denying or ignoring this fact and they falsely focus on panic symptoms and pathologize it, thus creating additional disorder since the blame is put on the victim.
The word "fawning" was huge revelation to me last year, when I learned about Complex Trauma. I would otherwise label it as caprice, quirk, perk, something that is happening in the background and it irrelevant to my panic, social anxiety and avoidance. When I learned this is trauma response - the same as fight and flight, it finally all made sense why I smile to people when they are being jerks and when they accuse me of unfair and false accusations, as a way to not rock the boat or that I am seen embarrassed or weird by others for expressing my voice.
Yeah fawning was default trauma response, but it is problem when I get triggered by things and people which are not dangerous, and when I keep continuing fawning in situations when I am even not triggered. I do it as learned automatic response. That is problem, fawning becoming a habit.
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Interesting, it seems your mind is rather very similar to my own. The way you think and explain events and people in your life. And experiences too, consequently because we think the same so we make the same decisions and choose explanations about our reality.
The purpose of psychology as I understand is that it gives us tools and power to make our own choices and decisions that are the most wise. If you seek advice from other people, you are telling yourself that you are not valid or capable to make your own decisions. I've been in this mode for quite long time until I learned last year the concept called external reference locus of control. It is where I see other people as gods and I must fawn onto them. Can you trust yourself? Can you believe in your choices and decisions as ok? Even if they are mistakes?
So, regarding your sister - I would use common sense. She is your sister. This is not stranger from the streets. It is your own family. I would not throw it away, that would be tyrannical. So I think you did the right thing. What I see the problem with is - did you ever confronted her about drug abuse? Did you tell her it is forbidden to use drugs when she stays in your apartment? Me as people pleaser - this being honest would be hard task because I never was aware what I want and what bothers me, since I would put my self worth in other people (external reference locus of control).
You said: "But if I go against my conditioning I feel like I am one of the self-obsessed narcissists" Yep. This is what happens when we do make correct choices and decisions in our life. Anything that is different from fawning and codependency and people pleasing. We feel guilt. I would focus on this guilt. I would try to analyze who is putting this control over me? Who is hypnotizing me into their mold? Objectively speaking - if you feel like narcissist - do you know the definition of narcissist? I realized that I need to learn about narcissism, what it is, what it is not. Narcissism is when you are unable to have empathy for other people and when you treat other people as crap, ashame them and belittle them. I doubt you do that.
"Stuck" Yeah, this is what I learned only a couple of months ago. Being stuck. I realized (to countless resources about CPTSD) that narcissists cause brain injury on their targets. This injury is making us stuck and we default our thinking onto intrusive worry and pessimism, catastrophizing. The solution is "Behavioral activation therapy" - it means that you step out of the car and push it out of the mud. It is stuck and you cannot ride your car out of the slippery surface, the wheels are rotating in place. This means we can't trust our brain any more, it has injury. Instead we rely on our common sense and make decisions on information we gathered from experts, resources, studies, our super-ego, instincts. We can't wait for our brain to feel good enough and then take action. We got to shift focus from worry and our fears onto chores, tasks, things we need to do anyway, onto our goals and dreams- Also to be positive and optimistic on force, since out brain is unable to do this on its own, we have to do it ourselves. We have to help our brain since it has this injury caused by external factor, it is not our fault. That is how I see dealing with being stuck. I learned that mental illness is when we are stuck. This immobility is sickness. Without action we do not live our lives. We do not meet people and create friendships. We don't chase our goals and dreams. Action is psychological health and it is up to our common sense to make decision to move, we can't wait for our brain to feel up for it, since it never will due to brain injury.
I see mental health as ability to construct our future, that we trust ourselves that we are able to make decisions and take actions that we analyzed enough from all sides. We can trust ourselves only when we realize that toxic shame is hallucination and that guilt is making us controlled into fitting psychopaths around us, and that brain injury is making us stuck in intrusive worry and seeing world as black.
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I noticed my external reference locus of control (putting self worth in other people because due to internalized toxic shame I believe I am inept to live) is connected with imposed guilt, hypnosis and belief that I am unable to support myself so I have to depend on other people and external to achieve Maslow Needs to be met (finances, shelter, support, help, service). I am stuck with hypnotized belief that unless I fawn, shut up, self censor and ignore someone's rudeness, abuse, unreasonable demands, beat dead dog criticism (pinpointing my mistakes and flaws) and constant nagging - I will be left homeless and broke. That fear of being without money and shelter is what keeps me in chronic worry, hypervigilance when I am unable to defend myself when I feel triggered by someone being rude and unfair.
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"Laid out your vision and counter vision what will happen if you don't stand up for yourself, quit whining, not feel sorry for yourself, a lot of people do not ask for it, not specify it, you got to put yourself forward" His vision of world is ego-centric. He presumes that people around us must take care of us, and we must ask other people for it. In this way he instruct us to be codependent by overcompensating in acting difficult. The truth is, there are people out there who are toxic and they do not argue, they do not negotiate with you. He makes no clarification to filter out predators and narcissists out there. He is ego-centric - he says that we are gods and we know what is best for us. As if polluting and having unreasonable demands about money and wealth is normal and healthy.
His advice are just bunch of half baked thoughts that he gathered from certain resource, he has no clear vision himself about life. So he is full of contradictions, and his every statement is bias and shortcut in conclusions. There are better psychologist out there, like Robert Greeene.
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I have no issue or any problem in filtering out parasites - once I detect them. However, I have huge issue in situations where I deem that my Maslow needs are in threat (money, shelter, job, service, help from others) - whereas I think I will end up homeless or without monopoly service/help if I do not take crap from others (them being rude, accusing me of false accusations). So I shut up and self-censor myself - or at least I do this automatically without being aware until much later, when I am out of situation.
I also see "boundary" as misleading word. It simply comes down to expressing my thoughts, opinions and my values and sticking up to them. It is not a wall or attack or aggression as word "boundary" may suggest (I see in my head Berlin wall where DDR police shot at refugees who tried to run over the wall).
I have no issue with "what happened before". I resolve this by deep forgiveness, as I see Resentment as hypnotic and distorted entity. This does not mean I shut up in present time when someone is unfair.
"Enforcing" This is tricky part. Narcissists and predators are mentally ill. You cannot negotiate with them. They gaslight. They play tricks. They use Ad Hominem to trigger you into defense and drama since they do not want resolution. I see that a lot of mentors and official healthy industry is keep ignoring this external factor: predators, narcissists, exploiters, users, abusers, parasites, emotional vampires, dark triad, dark psychology. With mentally ill aggressive people you cannot talk, since they invent their own fantasy world where they are always correct and you are wrong and slave to them.
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For me personally it was being bullied. Before 1989 I was very open and always went outside to play. After bully incident I closed myself in my room and started to avoid people but in the same time crave for friendships and connection with others.
I realized social anxiety is connected with Complex Trauma and this knowledge finally answered many unanswered questions that mentors and official mental health resources never explained. All of the sudden external reference locus of control explained why I trauma bond with others automatically (seeing other people as competent, since I feel incompetent and inept for life due to ingrained toxic shame). CPTSD explained triggers - which I never realized I had, before I thought that flashbacks and triggers are my caprice, perk, quirk and not related to chronic worry and hypervigilance. Polyvagal theory explained perfectly why I go to fawn response, and I realized fawning (people pleasing) is trauma response, it is not quirk, perk or my weird caprice. Official resources for social anxiety focus on CBT, which lead me to people pleasing and seeking approval and validation from others, which CBT never addressed. CBT focused on panic symptoms and in the same time ignored intrusive worry, imposed guilt and toxic shame from childhood.
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(10.1.2022)
Great you exposed but this is not social anxiety. That is mild shyness. Social anxiety cannot go on its own simply by exposure. Please allow me to explain.
It was renamed from social phobia onto social anxiety in late 1990s because experts realized that exposure does not cure it, it is not phobia. Phobias are cured by exposure.
Social anxiety is plethora of beliefs intermixed with trauma in childhood sprinkled with people pleasing and fawning. For me, yeah I also had the same issues on my job of being in close contact with people and helping them out - and exposure helps to ease the fears and panic attacks,,,however fawning and people pleasing did not went away with exposure. It even made it worse. Social anxiety is also connected with being sensitive and high empathy, which is frown upon in our society, especially for men. Society explains us that caring for others and not going along with popular opinion is not accepted.
People with social anxiety did not get this horrible anxiety on their own. This is not personal choice. This cannot be overcame with press of the button. The underlying issue of social anxiety is not fear from people, people themselves are not the problem. The real problem is interaction with people, thus it got its name - it is connected to socializing, not the person itself. If we have social anxiety, it is clear indication that in childhood we were exposed to mentally ill person in our midst, someone who never sought therapy - therefore we were hypnotized into fear. We were given false and mentally ill messages that took root in our mind. One of them is believing other people are superior and we must fawn to others. That we must shut up and self-censor ourselves even when others are toxic. Social anxiety is also over-reacting, identifying friends as enemies. And identifying toxic people as close friends (for example, we think we can share our secrets and fears to certain people who appear trustworthy , but borderliners are just collecting information from us that they will use later on for their weekly drama and conflict).
Social anxiety is also connected to mismatch about conflict- so we either do not react when we should, when someone is rude and unfair and accuse us of false doings - or we over-react when there is no conflict at all but we interpret it as aggression.
So.. in your case - if you do not fawn, if you can express yourself freely without panic attacks, if you can be honest, if you do not self-censor yourself when someone is being rude and bullying you, if you have no issues in socializing and you never had (except saying hi to strangers, which is common and normal fear) - you probably never had social anxiety to begin with.
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Laozi told us when we engage in combat, we lost already. When you label something as enemy (which is not attacking you nor it has qualities of enemy by definition) you are giving it energy of being stronger and more dangerous than it is. You are creating anxiety yourself simply by how you define unknown phenomena in your life. You are adding up more anxiety on the top of the basic one.
People with social anxiety have this recognition of toxic people mixed up. Also the dynamics of isolation and socializing is mixed up, too. People with social anxiety desire socializing and having friends. If you do not like people - it is more likely Schizoid disorder than social anxiety: "Schizoid personality disorder is an uncommon condition in which people avoid social activities and consistently shy away from interaction with others. They also have a limited range of emotional expression."
Social anxiety means in childhood we were traumatized. We learned false messages about self worth and socializing because we were exposed with mentally ill people (narcissists) that were closed to us in our development years when people learn how to connect with other people (Complex Trauma).
Social anxiety is not lack of social skills, it only appears as low skills disability. It is really fear and panic attacks that are governing our mind (google: amygdala hijacking and emotional dysregulation). And that is additional problem: society tries to fit all of us into imaginary concept how people should and ought to behave. So, if we have fears we won't be able to look people in their eyes even though we want to create friendships. Others will label our fears as shyness and something to deride, get rid off. Now this operation is creating additional neurosis, additional disorder, additional fears. It is similar to Hollywood celebrities who are convinced they are ugly if they are old, so they pay for plastic surgeries again and again, trying to fix something natural in order to fit in into imaginary social concepts.
The problem are these fears and panic attacks, not lack of social skills. Problem is ingrained hypnosis from childhood, it is not us, there is nothing intrinsical that is distorted or wrong inside us. Unfortunately the society jumps to fast conclusions and then tries to fix and tries to cure something that seems like distortion, but it is not in reality. People will try to make us be happy and friendly and sociable all the time. This is unrealistic.
So the problem with social anxiety is our belief that we are unworthy, that we are inept and wrong by default (toxic shame). Once we start to trust ourselves and bring back self worth where it belongs - inside ourselves - instead of putting it into other people through trauma bonding and seeking approval from others, we will make it easier to express ourselves without panic attacks and fears. So the problem are wrongly learned lessons from our childhood. Our reactions that seem abnormal (being afraid of socializing) are normal reaction to abnormal people, abnormal events and abnormal situations which we were exposed and now it is trapped inside our body as trauma - and we repeat it like in hypnosis.
People with social anxiety are kind, open, friendly people and society tries to make us believe we are unworthy and that there is something wrong with us inside. Society does not like the truth due to cognitive dissonance. People with social anxiety have ability to look at anything in life from more than one perspective and this irritates most of the people. We learned in childhood to shut up and self censor ourselves in order to survive. Now as adults we keep quiet and we try to fit in to the mold and popular opinions - and this is keeping social anxiety alive. We got to believe in our self worth, in our voice inside, in our ability to be smarter than average Joe - who will not like our opinions and we will be targets of bullies because we see what is right and what is wrong, as oppose to most of people who are ego-centric.
That is social anxiety. Don't buy into belief that social anxiety is lack of skills and our panic symptoms. It is more deeper and more spiritual and wholesome than these tools of shaming and control of people who do not like being told how it really is.
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That is how thoughts are going inside socially anxious person. It is realistic representation of amygdala hijacking and emotional dysregulation. Instead of looking it as something freak or weakness or disorder - we should look at it as super power. When average Joe is slow - we have Superman ability to fast incoming messages from our environment. Society tries to label this sensory overload as wrong, and this label makes us experience even more additional anxiety on top of the existing one.
Society tries to make us think we are weak, wrong and weird because we act hyperactive or hypoactive,,, but in reality - we have superman powers inside our minds. We simply have to figure out how to harness it and ride the wave on surfboard instead of drowning.
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Social anxiety and shyness are not the same. Shy person will not fret over before or after event. Shy person will be able to party and get rid of panic attacks in the first 15 minutes with socializing, while socially anxious person will not come at all and expect criticism and aggression.
"Shifting your focus on something else" I would be careful with this advice. That is part of immature ego defense mechanism: Sublimation and Repression. As such it only contributes to more anxiety and it is detrimental. It does not allow us to face our fears and see what happens when worst thing happens (there is no end of world).
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Taking action is the key. However when you approach with the energy and intention to get rid of something you are giving it too much negative energy. This unintentionally creates additional anxiety on the top of the existing one.
"social anxiety always held me back from meeting new people" I've been in your shoes, I know it seems like this. But this is social anxiety twisting our reality and perception. At your age I thought exactly the same - I was convinced there is something inherently wrong with me and I have to be fixed. This belief is social anxiety itself. Society tries to fix us into mold that most people will approve, but people cannot be fit into mold. That is why people have personalities, nobody is clone of other one.
Social anxiety is entity. It is immature ego defense mechanism that we learned in childhood to survive abnormal people, abnormal events and abnormal situations. Social anxiety is symptom, it is indication that we were exposed to mentally ill person that was very close to us in developmental age, when we learn socialization (Piaget developmental stages). Instead of blaming and scapegoating social anxiety, we have to focus on toxic people in our lives that poisoned our mind. By choosing to pathologize our natural reactions, we will create neurosis and build more anxiety and panic attacks on top of current trauma (CPTSD).
Social anxiety is not something we invented. It is not something you can turn off at the press of the button. Social anxiety is not lack of social skills. Social anxiety is not blockage, it is not something that prevents us from living - it is a tool that we had at our disposal when we were kids. Child brain is unable to process adult hysteria and 24/7 relentless criticism and nagging and blaming for natural mistakes in time when making mistakes is normal and expecting part of growing up.
"Expressing our true personality" Social anxiety does not prevent us from this. It is exactly the opposite. Social anxiety is like shield from mentally ill people or person who denied our expressing of our thoughts, opinions and persona and personality that was building up at our tender age - we were abused by neglect and suppressing of our needs in order to serve and obey narcissists in our lives.
"Social anxiety is lack of skills in different social environments" Nope. IT seems like that on the surface. But there is in fact hypnosis and imposed guilt that is preventing us to show our skills and friendliness. This fear stems from trauma, not from social anxiety.
"Many socially anxious people believe that they lack the social skills to relate to people. They have the sense that there are unwritten social rules and behaviours for developing relationships that they have not learned." Quote from the book: "Coping with Shyness and Social Phobia" W. Ray Crozier, Lynn E. Alden
Look at it logically. There are tons of stupid, moron people who have absolutely no skills at all and they have many friends and they have absolutely no fears or anxieties at all. They belch, fart, throw up, curse, throw temper tantrums, make idiots of themselves and others, use manipulation and tricks and mock easy targets - and they are stars of the parties. You do not need skills to be social, this is urban myth. In fact, if you had social skills, people would find you extremely stuck up and un-natural, as if you want to manipulate others or that you pretend to be superior and better than others - and people are turned off by this, you will appear fake to people if you had excellent social skills. People will substitute your friendliness for wanting to exploit them, since many narcissist have excellent charm and skills.
"Lack of skill make you less confident" Nope. Toxic shame makes you less confident. Confidence is paradox. If you think you do not have confidence - you will have it. And if you think you lack confidence, you will try to over-compensate it and you will turn out to be very needy and clingy and totally not confident. Imposed guilt makes you less confident. Shame and guilt are tools of controlling other people.
"Confidence is built from doing" You are mixing up experience with confidence.
"Having success in situations you previously were unconfined" What is success? How would you define success? That people like you? That is sign you place external reference locus of control where other people are superior and we place our self worth in other people hands. By doing this we are giving other people power over how we feel, our mood and our worth. We will feel very volatile - and seek other people approval all the time in order to feel good and functional and successful. That is social anxiety. You can only by truly happy if you place self worth back where it belongs - into yourself. This means being honest, authentic, genuine and not depend on other people approval.
"Driving" Is great example for driving, however you cannot use the same logic for social anxiety. Social phobia was renamed in late 1990s because medical experts realized this is not phobia at all. IT means, it will not go away by exposure to fear object (being exposed to other people). What will happen - you will become people pleaser and pushover, you will develop dependency and codependency since other people approval is the main focus in your life.
Why would you improve social skills anyway? You want to impress people. You want to control other people. You want to decrease other people's anger by knowing the right skills. But in real life - we cannot control other people. Thinking we can control other people is cognitive distortion. What we can do is express ourselves, speak freely and disagree with people when they are wrong instead of shutting up and self-censorship and fawning.
"level up the skill" will only bring more anxiety. What we need instead is level up with other people. Where we see ourselves inferior an other people superior - we should be on par with others.
"Get better and better at it" Some people do not deserve our skills. They do not deserve our time and energy and our niceness and being good. Some people are toxic, narcissistic, manipulative and down right dangerous. Bullies will sniff out our need to have great skills - and they will mock us. They will see it as our weakness because we built ourselves up in belief that we are not ok as human being until we get to that magical place where there are super skills - that will magically solve all problems in life. This is salvation fantasy and it is common for people who went through trauma.
The need and urge to be great at skills is part of social anxiety, and social anxiety is part of trauma. We were traumatized as kids into social anxiety that we feel as adults. Trauma is trapped inside our body. Focusing on these magical skills is trying to ignore ourselves - and we repeat the original trauma where we were abandoned and ignored by people who were close to us when we were growing up.
"Talking to random people every single day" Will not help you get skills. It will annoy other people who are probably ego-centric and unfriendly and wary of strangers anyways. Also, it is ego-centric to use up other people as a tool - people are not objects. We cannot use up other people and then throw them away like rubbish. Some people do not deserve our time energy and goodness inside ourselves. Some people are toxic - there are parasites out there and we need boundaries - which means not talking to any stranger out there just to brush up some skills that we already possess inside.
Socially anxious people are anxious because they value society, this is indication we already have superior social skills inside us but we were shamed into believing into toxic shame and guilt - that we are inept and unworthy. That is trauma, we were traumatized into believing we do not have skills, that we are crap. We have skills, they are hidden like water on Mars, beneath the surface.
"Having full deep conversation with people" Yep. That is what I am talking about. We as sensitive people love deep conversation - however most people are shallow and unable to have deep conversations. It is not our fault. They will not become deep if we learn some magical social skills. People will not become friendly when we build some magical persona. Most people are crap and difficult and boring. If they are not stupid and idiots, they are Machiavellians and very deceptive and parasitic.
It comes down to trusting yourself and believing in yourself - no matter what you are and how you come up. With social anxiety - it means we have trauma and there is absolutely nothing wrong with our skills. There is absolutely nothing wrong with our persona nor personality. We were traumatized into anxiety and fears. We got to deal with trauma - not our skills. This means - if you do not want to speak with someone - ok, there is probably something wrong with that person which sensitive people pick up very easily. People will always wear masks, serial killer will not tell you that he has basement full of bodies. Criminal will not tell you he has weapon and he wants to steal your wallet. Cleptomaniac will not tell you he has issues and want to steal from you. They will never admit to you something that you feel inside that is coming out from toxic and dangerous people. Society will try to fix us, similar like Hollywood celebrities who are told by "experts" who tell them to go though expensive plastic surgeries to fix them becoming old and ugly. In the end they become ugly themselves by plastic surgeries, not because they are ugly in reality. Society hates truth. Social anxiety people know the truth, we have special abilities to see reality and people from multiple dimensions. Most people are ego centric and see life and people only from one angle. Thus they will have crab mentality and label anyone who is not thinking alike as weirdo due to their cognitive dissonance and being trapped in tunnel vision mind.
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Yeah, there are a lot of videos about people pleasing as if it is a choice. And I learned it is not about word "no" at all. It simply comes down to being honest, expressing my opinion, not holding back, speaking the truth, being genuine and authentic, no secrets, of course with discretion and common sense (you can't say to violent idiot he is violent idiot :D ) and ethics - I would abstain from labeling others as weirdos for example, just because it is strange and unfamiliar to me. I understand I am limited in understanding as everyone else, and we are all quick to jump to conclusions and biases - so being negative to others for their appearance of unintentional actions is ethical rudeness. I am not talking about total honesty, some things should be sugar-coated. But shutting up and self-censorship leads to people pleasing. I see people pleasing as fawning, and it is trauma response. I do not see it as choice, It is hypnosis, it is imposed guilt that control our actions into being pushover. Instead of "embracing dark shadow" as some you tubers suggest and becoming hysterical and violent, I would rather focus on trauma and work on that as place to start healing people pleasing habits.
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People with internalized toxic shame and inferiority complex are not prone to this particular bias. People are prone to biases, this is not something we should pathologize, since it will lead us to believe we are inferior and wrong by default, it it the road to toxic shame when we make fuss about something normal and regular such as having biases. It is great to be aware of them, it is great to avoid them, however we have to be objective that human beings are not gods, and as such will be subject to biases. It is normal to make mistakes. It is normal to be human. Our need/urge to become superior (god like creature without biases) is path to neurosis, chronic worry and life filled with anxieties.
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(11.1.2022)
Yeah. Beating up goes into psychological abuse, too. Or lack of any care and love, too. That is CPTSD. In all these cases we learn we are inept by default and we internalize toxic shame. Then as adults we feel imposed guilt as hypnosis when someone is rude - we shut up and self censor, because this is what we learned, learned helplessness - like circus animals or Pavlovian dogs into submission, subservience and trauma bonding.
"Grateful that my parents beat me" Is Stockholm Syndrome.
"Settled and doesn't grow" Nope, they don't have chronic worry and hypervigilance, they do not spend 20, 30 years with social anxiety, they do not spend living life by avoiding it.
"mediation" If you have ritual to soothe anxiety, that is OCD. You are literally contributing to your anxiety. IT seems from your perspective as helpful, but this ritual is tool that contributes to chronic worry (Polyvagal theory). If there is a need to soothe anxiety - anything you to is ritual. Anxiety means there is some distortion inside, a wound, an injury that needs healing. Rituals do not heal it.
Narcissistic abuse causes brain injury. It is serious condition. The last thing you do is to be thankful for that. Brain injury. Just stop and think about it for a moment. There is physical brain injury inside our brain due to dysfunctional childhood. It is the same as physical trauma to brain - we were taken health from our life. This is nothing to be thankful about. People do not injure other people. Sick people do. Narcissists, manipulators, criminals. There is no difference between serial killer and someone who causes you brain injury. You cannot abolish or sprinkle it with gratitude. You can forgive it though, but forgiveness is only for your own peace, not to contribute or applaud the criminals.
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(12.1.2022)
For me, it helped to learn about Complex Trauma, in understanding why certain situations, people and events trigger me, and from where anxiety inducing flashbacks come from. Polyvagal Theory iconographic is revealing. With CPTSD I learned that I am prone to fawning as trauma response. I was convinced before learning about Complex PTSD that feeling anxiety and thus people pleasing in order to manage anxiety is my caprice, perk, quirk, something unrelated to panic attacks and chronic worry and hypervigilance.
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For me, it was a click in the head when I was driving, I was waiting for instruction for someone else to tell me where to stop, where to park. I realized I have experience and knowledge to make decisions, even if they are mistakes - they can be corrected. That can be applied to everyday life, too. I do not need to wait for other people to tell me how to operate something I am operating. I am able to make amends if I do make unintentional and insignificant mistake. I do not have to be perfectionist. And I do not need someone else to approve what I do or think.
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It is important to realize these are not something we invent or choose. These are dysfunctional patterns we picked up in our childhood when we were exposed to people or events that child brain is unable to process other than creating immature ego defense mechanisms. Like being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when it is normal to make mistakes - when you do something for the first time and have no previous experience. OR being exposed to adult hysteria, mental illness and narcissism. Narcissistic abuse can cause brain injury - google it. So, do not internalize these as toxic shame or something to blame yourself or others about, impose guilt for having these negative patterns that are now habits.
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Long term narcissistic abuse cause brain damage. I am still learning about CPTSD, and this part of relationships I resolved by avoidance, the best way to stay off these dynamics and victimhood. My reaction to trauma is fawning, shutting up and self-censorship. What I am stuck with is being silent to aggressive, loud and obnoxious people, violent bullies, that I avoid occupational or any activity that may involve interaction with such people.
What resonates with me is when you said playing victim and controlling others from under-powered position. I was shocked to learn this about myself, I was not aware of it at all until I started to learn about Childhood Trauma. I started avoiding people with being 12 or 13 - and I started that because I was trying to control kids who mocked me. I thought, I was convinced that when I sulk and stay in my room, that they will feel sorry for me and that they will learn their lesson for being bully is wrong - since I put myself into prison. The problem is that I did this in developmental stage, where interaction with people is learned. And I stayed stuck in this mode of social anxiety and avoidance as natural and normal way to respond to rude and aggressive people. This became my default mechanism when faced with mocking, bullying and aggressive behaviour from others into adulthood. Someone is rude - I smile, I fawn, I appease. Someone is critical - I blame myself. I developed inferiority complex and internalized toxic shame, I truly believed I am inept and others are gods and superior, that they hold the ultimate truth about anything in life, while my opinion is worthless and wrong, by default. I totally forget that this started with an attempt to manipulate bullies into loving and being friends with me. This happened in 1989 and I realized this manipulation I decided to pull only in 2021. So yeah, I guess people out there are not aware of what you are talking about, but it is true.
Another thing that resonates with me is what you said: "Your life shows your trauma. So if any aspect of your life isn't working, it's your trauma" Yeah, social anxiety is definitely my blockage. Being unable to be around people who are highly critical, nagging, nitpicking. It sounds silly and unbelievably benign when I write it down like that - but in real life it affect me, it triggers a set of trauma responses - mostly fawn and freeze, absolutely no fight response, and that puts me into position to be silent and stay passive even when people are way crossed and reasonable boundaries of normal behaviour. The amount of fears and panic attacks prevents me from doing more in life, it is unbearable, since I already soak in hypervigilance, chronic worry and intrusive worries. And the resources for social anxiety do not speak at all about trauma. The main focus of official social anxiety therapy is on the symptoms - which only contribute more to fawning and people pleasing and being pushover. Once I realized it was CPTSD actually - the amount of me becoming more free to talk and understanding the extreme fawning issues that I faced started to subdue. CPTSD talks about concepts that helped me understand fears and panic attacks that standard mentors and techniques such as CBT failed to produce.
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@James Hayton PhD I have been to therapy in 1999, I actually explained to doctor what social phobia is (back then it was labelled as phobia, not anxiety). I have been reading and soaking up information since 1996 (official resources and self help). In the last 5 years I have been scanning you tube videos by topic on weekly basis. I find You tube as great resource for help, both in video and in comment section.
So I was seeking help since 1996. What I did notice is that only after finding out about Complex Trauma last year that finally everything started to make sense.
For example, to explain what I mean: I knew I had issues with people pleasing and being pushover, but only after learning information about CPTSD I learned that fawning is trauma response. Official resources describe only fight or flight as trauma response. Fawn is then suppose to be a quirk or perk according to this ignorance. Official resources and self help would give only a general advice: build self esteem and confidence, but these superficial information does not tell how.
I knew that most blockages and difficulties, fears and panic attacks and anxieties I experience is related to seeking approval from others - whereas information that this is people pleasing did not help me at all - it only deepened toxic shame and belief that I am inept by default. CPTSD explains this is trauma bonding, it is natural and normal reaction to abnormal people, abnormal events and abnormal situations. And it explains through external reference locus of control that I can bring back self worth back to myself, where if belongs. Once I knew this concept and information, not long time passed when it clicked in my head. I was in situation where another person would tell me what to do something I was operating with. And then I realized I automatically distrust my experience, knowledge and intuition in favor of other people, their opinions which I perceive as orders and commands. Instead I can trust my decisions, including mistakes.
I learned that exposure to narcissistic abuse cause brain damage. And this explains why I default to intrusive worry and pessimism. There is physical injury - and that helps me being patient with myself and accepting fears as something natural being reaction to abnormal circumstances. Without this information I would feel deep toxic shame and belief I am inept while all other people are superior in anything.
I learned that my body is conditioned to trauma, so chemicals and hormones will keep me stuck in intrusive worry. Without this information I was convinced I had Pure OCD that is somehow permanent. I know now I was trained like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals into chronic worry and hypervigilance.
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(13.1.2022)
Peterson is prone to shortcuts and oversimplifications, cognitive distortions and logical fallacies. Also he is hypocrite, in private behind everyone's back he is suing University for free speech while he propagates free speech in public. He reads one book and then he make speech about it, then he reads another and make contrary statements. This is sign he has no standpoint, he abuses information for his goals, he is Machiavellian, a very dangerous person that should not be trusted.
His advice is always full of ambiguity, so if you ask for more clarity, or if you confront him with truth that his advice is faulty, he would simply say he did not mean it in that way.
Here he continually mix up the "walking people over you" with being monster. People who are hyper-agreeable are not because this is a choice or something you can change at the press of the button. If he was real psychologist, he would know that. Since he is a bad person with plethora of mental illnesses, he is unable to process all information he was forced to learn during his education about psychology.
Resentment is mental illness, it is not tool to brush your ability to confront people.
6:59 "you might be highly motivated not to say anything about it because you want to keep the peace, you don't want to upset them. you don't want the conflict. that's all characteristics of high agreeableness" Nope. This is sign of Complex Trauma. This is not choice. It is programmed belief to stay silent to abuse, as learned in childhood by being exposed to narcissistic people like Peterson. Being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when child brain was unable to process information other than integrating toxic shame as default behaviour.
9:04 "developing your shadow" He is quack. Shadow is not being monster. This is superficial explanation of Jung, this guy never really studied psychology. Shadow is accepting your annoying characteristics like fear of appearing boring or making mistakes and embarrassing yourself. It has nothing to do with being hysterical, drama queen Karen that he is instructing young men into becoming.
10:39 "consult your resentment" Resentment is mental illness. It is not something you grow and consult with. It is something you destroy.
10:47 "You should grow the hell up and quit whining" He is accusing victims of abuse to be blamed for the abuse. This man is dangerous. His advice is detrimental. He is creating new generation of narcissists and ego-centric babies. He is instructing young men to become drama queen Karens, not grown man. This sentence is placing toxic shame and guilt on someone in order to control the other person. His alcoholism is transferring mental illness onto new generations.
11:14 "I've seen in my personal life and private practice people not get what they want because a) they don't specify it and b) they don't ask for it" Nope. Totally wrong conclusion based on his mental illness, not psychology. People don't know what they want because of trauma, narcissists taught them of learned helplessness, people were traumatized and been programmed into forfeiting their beliefs and worth onto other people, this is called external reference locus of control and trauma bonding. That is the reason why people don't know what they want and thus they can't ask for what they want.
11:41 "you have to make compelling case to ask for respect, so that they have a reason to attend to you" "they're not going to notice because most managerial types are so overloaded with work that they never notice when anything's going right" This is sign he is ego-centric. Managerial types are full of narcissist like Peterson, having tunnel vision, lack of empathy and seeing people as tools to exploit. That is why they do not notice, usually the worse narcissists, the more lazy they are, so they have no overload of work.
13:16 "allow yourself to act courageously" This is hypnosis into subservience and chronic worry. On the surface it looks as motivation, but in dark psychology, he is telling people they are inept by default so they need magical courage to go fight the enemy. This is mentality of mentally ill person, he is spreading narcissism and borderline point of view where there is constant drama and you must be Karen hysterical drama queen to ask for money and to manipulate other people into respecting you.
I hope you will realize this man is quack. There are true, real psychologist out there who are not mentally ill like him. Check out and see how they convey their messages: Dan Ariely Robert Greene Adam Grant
It is said: "Often people who feel compelled to advise and counsel others are needy and insecure. Advising others makes them feel in charge and boosts their self esteem"
The purpose of psychology is to give you tools and information and to make you realize you have your own advice maker inside you. You do not need false prophets like Peterson. Just look at his room, it is full of garbage. He is unable to clean his own room and he is giving instruction to people to be this or that.
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Tacit approval is groupthink, herd mentality. It is social phenomena, related to Instagram influencers, since most people are afraid to be themselves, trying to fit in to presumed norms.
He is not assertive, he is Karen, drama queen, hysteric. That is not macho nor manly.
Yelling, screaming is not way to interact with people. You try to abuse people into control, this backfires in real life. People will avoid you. And your success is parasitical, you parasite over people who fawn over you, you predate over weak people, easy targets. This is not success, this is pathetic.
It is good that he said Ukraine and Russia have "balls" to yell and scream - and in the same time these countries are full of corruption and tyranny. You have dictator - high class that does not have to obey the law, and you have lower class - people who are abused by authority. That is Ukraine and Russia. Watch You tube's Russian The Simpsons - and see what life looks like in Russia - everyone is mad, angry and violent. That is hell, this is not being assertive.
Problem is when you play pretend to be monster, there is always someone worse and stronger than you. This would explain why there are mass shootings out there, it is due to mentally ill people who abuse others until it breaks.
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"Boundaries – be clear what you want and need. Letting go of responsibility you are taking for their emotional reaction." If a grown person is people pleaser and pushover, this is not choice, neither it is something you flex to get stronger. This is symptom of Complex Trauma. Being exposed to mentally ill person when child brain was unable to process relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria other than developing immature ego defense mechanism as protective measure to deal with mental illness of person who never sought treatment. That is why you can't be clear what you want. Trauma is hypnosis, trauma is trapped in our body. And we were programmed into placing our self worth in other people hands, trauma bonding. Our body is trained like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals into seeking approval from other people. If we try to stand up for ourselves - our body will drug us into subservience - it will release chemicals and hormones to feel fear and guilt when we do the right thing, when we try to speak up. Body will release hormones and chemicals to feel good when we fawn. It is conditioning, learned helplessness. That is why we feel responsibility for other people emotional reaction. We are trained into Stockholm Syndrome due to CPTSD.
People pleasing is having constant worry and hypervigilance already - before someone asks us for anything. So being aware of this will not help. Our body and mind is distorted into submission. Our body drug us into people pleasing, it is addiction, so it is not something you can snap out of it, since it is happening beneath your skin.
Steps to "flex your muscle" will only make you into Karen, drama queen, hysterical person - since our mind is fixed onto being silent and self-censorship. I see the way out only by learning concepts about Complex Trauma. With trauma it means we were exposed to narcissistic people. Long term exposure to narcissistic abuse created brain damage. There is a physical brain injury - this is not something you can change at whim, will or press of the button. It is serious condition that needs our attention. Trauma is being denied of our feelings, our opinions and needs - and I see bringing back self worth where it belongs - inside us. Brain injury will default our thinking patterns into being stuck, being immobile, being passive and being pessimist. Behavioral activation therapy tells us to get unstuck - to shift our focus from intrusive worry onto tasks and goals and dreams we need to do. Being stuck into what bothers us is the reason why taking responsibility for other people emotional reaction. It springs from this brain injury, for being exposed to narcissistic abuse in childhood. Enforced by our own body though chemical addiction to people please and fawn as trauma response.
Another reason to be stuck is guilt and toxic shame, also by-products of trauma. Guilt is great way of controlling other people. With trauma, brain injury, body that is drugging us into submission, toxic shame and guilt and narcissistic dynamics where we attract manipulators like moth to a flame - it is no wonder we are people pleasers. It means we are good people, if we do not people please as reaction to trauma - we would become narcissists ourselves, manipulators, exploiters and abusers.
So anyone struggling with people pleasing - start with getting know information about Complex Trauma (CPTSD). Google image of Polyvagal Theory - and you'll see that there are triggers and flashbacks that make us emotionally dysregulated, our brain get hijacked, it is called amygdala hijacking and emotional hijacking - usually related to events and situations from childhood trauma. Someone being angry, hysterical, violent - it triggers us into default immature ego defense mechanisms and trauma response such as fawning - from which people pleasing springs from.
I realized after learning about Complex Trauma - once you soak up all information, there will be situation where you will have a click in your head, when you realize you are depending on other person to tell you what do do, the thing you know how to do, you have experience already - and that you can rely on your inner knowledge instead of listening to others for guidance. External reference locus of control is fuel that gives energy to people pleasing: perceiving other people as gods and believing that other people hold ultimate truth about anything in life, while in the same time we are inferior and inept to manage life. Socrates said long time ago no one holds the ultimate truth. Narcissists and toxic people wear mask and exploit this secret by taking advantage of traumatized people who were hypnotized into subservience and placing ultimate trust in other people.
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With guilt, I would go deeper.
For starters, Guilt can be used as a tool to control other people. Manipulative and toxic people, exploiters, narcissists often gaslight easy targets (traumatized people with programmed guilt) into feeling guilty when you stand up to them, when you express your opinion and needs and feelings. I see guilt as hypnosis. Imposed and implanted guilt makes us do things against common sense and objectivity. So, guilt can be used by dark psychology in marketing or politics, so often used by right wing conservatives (abusing family issues for their hidden Machiavellian agenda for example)-
Growing up with Complex trauma, I see people who are trained like circus animals or Pavlovian dogs into feeling guilty when they need to stand up for themselves when someone is rude or aggressive. Long term narcissistic abuse causes brain damage - and I see being stuck with guilt, intrusive worry as this brain injury. The injury will affect our thought process into being passive and immobile, being afraid of making mistakes and feeling guilty for existing (toxic shame). Also pessimism and catastrophizing. I see Behavioral Activation Therapy as tool to deal with this injury - shifting focus onto task that needs to be done, like stepping out of the car and giving it a push to get out of the mud. The injury would explain why negative feelings come back again and again - it is not curse or supernatural or our fault, to feel guilty for feeling guilty. It is result of being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when child brain was unable to process other than internalizing toxic shame and developing immature ego defense mechanism. I realize that our body is trained into guilt, the body will release chemicals and hormones that affects our mood, so this makes guilt as a byproduct of drug addiction created by our own body and brain injury.
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(14.1.2022)
That is a good question. What is mental illness by definition anyway? That is actually tricky question and it is related to healthy mind. It is double binding - if you label something as illness - it is a label and it will act as self-fulling prophecy. On the other side - if you ignore it, trauma grows since ignoring is at the core of trauma so ignoring the symptoms gives it strength and energy to grow.
I see mental imbalance when we feel blockages in life, where we feel we can't tolerate people, situations and events that are not dangerous at all, but they appear difficult to endure and unmanageable to us.
The crucial problem with mental balance is tricky because - who out there is expert and competent enough to place settings for mental health? If we look at the society, society is pretty much messed up. Many people throw temper tantrums for no reasons, they cannot control their anger and many hold grudges and resentments. So what we get in the end - is that person who seeks helps is actually reacting to abnormal society. Where society is really the sick one, and person who is labelled as mentally ill is only the victim of living in an open-type asylum with aggressive lunatics running loose and infecting the normal and healthy people around them, scaring the healthy population into panic and inability to manage life. Zimbardo's Stanford Prison Experiment actually showed this to be true. The prisoners soon developed symptoms of mentally ill people simply by being exposed to aggressive jail guards.
In the '60s there was anti-psychiatry movement because psychology cannot put instructions on people if they are not violent or unkind. If people are sociable, and they have no ability to cause harm to others - there is no authority in the world to tell you how to talk, lead life, think, hold opinion. IF there were, we would live like in North Korea with dictator telling us what to wear, how to make our hairstyle, where to work - as if we are helpless babies - which is un-natural and leads to mental illness, learned helplessness, where you are unable to manage your life without codependency.
And that is where mental health lies - that we are authentic and genuine. That we do not subordinate to groupthink and herd mentality (which can lead to the Milgram Experiment).
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I've run on you tube video about social anxiety from 1990s. The video is called "Recovery from Social Anxiety – CBT" by Damien and Oocie. I left hefty comments there. :D
Experts in that video were the ones who defined social anxiety in early 1990s, and they talk exactly the things that Peterson was talking about in his own video -where he concluded falsely that socially anxious people focus on internal symptoms and the solution is according to him to focus on other people.
So Peterson is quack. He reads a book or watch one video - and then he makes the general statements - without doing any real, deep research or applying any of his own knowledge from his University education. He simply copy-paste statements from one resource that he stumbles upon. That is very dangerous because he has large influence on young people who are struggling with anxiety and seek correct information - and they get oversimplified garbage by person claiming to be expert. I've learned from my experience that false advice is detrimental since it leads you in a wrong direction, like being stuck in labyrinth and you don't know how to get out, since you believe in false information given to you by the "experts" such as Peterson.
The problem is that the 1990s social anxiety research was done with supposedly socially anxious people - but socially anxious people would never expose themselves to any social experiment in the first place. So they actually based their whole research with people with mild shyness who didn't have any social anxiety to accept being a lab rat. Social anxiety is inability to be exposed to spotlight and any kind of criticism or judgement, even the potential one.
Another issues is that people with social anxiety have their perception messed up - they are unable to label emotions correctly (due to amygdala hijacking) and they are not aware of what anxiety is composed of - which means they will not tell the whole truth, since they are not aware of all anxiety and fears and panic attacks that they actually feel inside. So the research was focused on a tip of iceberg, and totally ignored the huge chunk beneath the surface.
Peterson and early social anxiety research thus focused on classical CBT - which does not address trauma at all, it is focused on panic attack symptoms. As the result - and I can testify - CBT will bring toxic shame because you will end up thinking there is something horribly wrong with me for feeling anxiety (whereas "normal" people do not feel fears). Also, another after-effect is since you ignore trauma and fears - you end up being people pleaser and pushover, since you removed your natural protection from childhood - learned response to be distrustful to angry and ambiguous people. You end up as prime target to bullies and narcissists who sniff out people who like to socialize, who crave for external validation and external approval. Classical CBT does not address this issues at all, it is only focused on the symptoms. That is because they listened to people with mild shyness - who do not have any trauma at all. The whole social anxiety therapy that was accepted by mental healthy industry was based on this faulty study from early 1990s.
What I learned from social anxiety is that it comes down to intrinsic locus of control, where we put self worth back to us, inside us, to our common sense and believing in our knowledge and expertise, instead of placing it on the external, trusting that other people know better than us how to do anything in life. This means, any advice that Peterson said - like for example looking in the eyes or not looking is part of social anxiety and external reference. It is belief that there is magical instruction how to lead and manage life and socializing and that you must obey to these external rules by supposed experts. Instead of just being you, being authentic, being honest. IF you had crappy day, why on Earth would you put a mask and pretend that everything is fine and look at people's eyes? If we have ability to sniff out fake people and exploiters, why would we force ourselves to be friendly with them? Just to prove I am what? Capable to socialize? Prove to whom? Will someone pat my back and give me a medal? Another fact is that - most people have no social skills and they socialize without any problems. They don't care whom they look in the eyes, and people love them. They don't mind social etiquette and people accept them as they are, no one attacks them or rejects them for making a fool out of themselves or others. In fact, if someone was following social etiquette and had excellent social skills - everybody would find this person to be boring, lame and probably with some secret agenda, for being too friendly and being too nice. I would not feel at ease if someone was looking at my eyes when I talked some small talk with them. I would find it extremely uncomfortable, I would not find this person friendly or with social skills, on the contrary. And the last argument is - that people with social anxiety already have social skills inside them. It is just buried like water on Mars, beneath the surface due to trauma and panic attacks. Advice to perform in certain way, only increases chronic worry and already present anxiety. It backfires. People with social anxiety react to social situations because they value socializing, they want to have friends and make friends, this is what makes them anxious. Being afraid of embarrassment means you care very much about what people think of you. This means you have superior social skills in form of empathy, being aware of people around you. Without social anxiety, people who suffer from social anxiety would become the opposite - the trauma would make them into narcissists and they would have anti-social personality disorder.
CBT is accepted as the main therapy for people with social anxiety by official medical community. It was "Developed in the 1960s by psychiatrist Aaron Beck, this therapy aims to change the negative thought processes and beliefs that lead to problematic behaviors"
And I think I was correct from my experience to pinpoint at CBT as wrong therapy since it negates trauma and thus leads to toxic shame and people pleasing, because as I learn there is upgrade in CBT: Quote from the book: "DK How Psychology Works - The Facts Visually Explained" They literally are saying what I've been talking about - that focus on symptoms is wrong;
"Third wave CBT" "Rather than focusing on reducing symptoms—though this is a benefit—they help the client step away from unhelpful thoughts." "Two therapies that come under the third wave CBT umbrella are ACT (acceptance and commitment therapy) and DBT (dialectical behavior therapy)."
Also there is another approach to therapy, it is called " Humanistic therapies" "This group of therapies encourages an individual to resolve their problems and issues and achieve greater fulfillment by recognizing, understanding, and using their own capacity to develop. Humanists believe that not only is a person capable of making changes and achieving personal growth but it is their responsibility to do so. This idea places the individual fully in control of their choices and goals."
From my own experience, I see this is the correct way to deal with anxiety issues. Due to trauma we were hypnotized into believing that we are inept and all our opinions and trust inside our capabilities are by default wrong. And this is causing the disorder and inability to face life, to manage it. So we got to come to terms that whatever we do, say, think, hold opinion etc is valid. It may be wrong. It may be a mistake, but it is valid. What I see from any mental disorder that there is trauma beneath it, and it is co-joined with imposed guilt. And this guilt is making us blocked. Now people with social anxiety have empathy and they try to not to rock the boat at their own expense because they do not believe into their own self worth due to this implanted guilt. So the only way to calm down social anxiety is to bring back self worth where it belongs - inside us. And this means being ok with our mistakes and flaws and us looking as fools and making fool of ourselves, simply being ok with being imperfect. Peterson says the opposite. He claims that we need to obey, that we must give our power and our mood at the hands of other people. That we must people please them: to look them into eyes, to always look friendly and nice to everybody, as if all people in the world are good and nice. Nope. Some people do not deserve our time, energy and niceness. And if we have our self worth inside ourselves, we would trust our anxiety as an alarm that we have ability to look behind people masks and we sniff out the danger.
I trust when we have full self-trust in ourselves, that we will be able with time to discern our over-reactions and social allergy, where we over-react with panic attacks to people and situations which are not dangerous in reality. We simply lack experience to this filtering, since social anxiety makes us, compels us to perform safety mechanisms and thus we do not expose ourselves - and we never test our fears and alarms about other people. This safety mechanism keeps us in prison of panic attacks and anxiety. With avoidance issues, this is totally true.
Peterson and CBT approach is that only if we do not feel panic attacks, that somehow we will become socially not scared. But in real life this does not happen due to trauma which is not addressed - that we do not love ourselves. We despise ourselves, we think we are inept and unable to be normal. This toxic shame keeps us to seek approval from other people, since we subconsciously place our self worth in other people - because we believe we are crap. Thus Peterson's and classical CBT advice to calm panic attack will make us to fawn, people please and be easy targets for toxic people.
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If child takes things personally - it is a sign of ego-centrism, normal stage in child development (Piaget).
However, if grown person takes things personally, it is a sign of trauma. This is not something you grow out of. It is not something you can change at the press of the button. Understanding will not help. In fact, it will make things worse, since now you have toxic shame and alarm that you are weird, inept and ill - since you are not like the herd.
Taking things personally is a result of Complex Trauma.
Can you imagine what happened to someone if this person is unable to shake it off even when you are aware of the fact you take things personally? Can you imagine the amount of the abuse that hypnotize you into imposed and implanted guilt and toxic shame and extreme vulnerability and seeing danger where there is none? Can you imagine what happened to a child exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 in the age when a person develops but gets adult hysteria instead of parental guidance and love?
This cannot be banished by understanding you must not take things personally. It will not go away by being aware there is build up resentment. It is chronic worry and hypervigilance that exists before the moment already (Polyvagal theory). Taking things personally is hypnosis. If you cannot shake some thoughts away by understanding - it is hypnosis, addiction. Trauma makes us conditioned to certain behaviour such as over-reaction and expecting danger - like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals you are trained into taking things personally. IT cannot be stopped by someone telling you to stop and that it is annoying. What you get will be the person who will shut up, self censor and fawn to others. It will lead to people pleasing and codependency and being pushover since you are labelled as weird for over-reacting and having mental allergy.
This is not habit. It is conditioning as result of childhood abuse and neglect and abandonment.
Also people in general are prone to cognitive dissonance - where they feel pain when their facts are criticized. This is related to ego-centrism, where you see world and people and events from tunnel vision, only from one angle. The intelligent people and people who were abused as well - are forced to put themselves into other people shoes, and to develop external reference locus of control, where they are very aware of other people's emotions and moods. We can see this phenomena where 2D creatures meet 3D creatures in novela Flatland: "Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions is a satirical novella by the English schoolmaster Edwin Abbott Abbott, first published in 1884" There is You tube video - where we can see that 2D creature is very irritated when 3D creature talks and communicates with them. It is inability of 2D creature to process and see reality from multiple dimensions and this appears in 2D creature as if 3D creature is over-reacting. While 3D creature is seeing 2D creature as over-reacting and taking things personally.
Look at this: You said that people feel annoyed by someone who takes things personally. But this annoyance is not general rule. There is no general instruction for life where one group of people hold the ultimate truth about anything in life. So if you feel annoyed by someone who is taking things personally - you are also taking it personally. You are problem yourself - and you are not even aware of it because you are ego-centric, you see things only from 2D, from the tunnel vision.
Being HSP we learn from the book The Highly Sensitive Person, by Elaine N. Aron - that our over-arousal is seen as taking things personally - and then we try to correct ourselves, and then we create more neurosis, by trying to fit into society norms, that are not always correct nor healthy: She said: "Being sensitive to the discomfort, disapproval, or anger of others probably made you quick to follow every rule as perfectly as possible, afraid to make a mistake. Being so good all the time, however, meant ignoring many of your normal human feelings-irritation, Elaine Aron "HSP""
Elaine also said that as HSP we will always be the show-stoppers where we have higher wisdom than most of people and we will come across as party-poopers, where we take adult stance which will appear as taking things personally to most of people who have low IQ and low emotional IQ, too.
"We have to ignore all the messages from the warriors that we are not as good as they are. The warriors have their bold style, which has its value. But we, too, have our style and our own important contribution to make. The Highly Sensitive Person, Elaine N. Aron"
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When someone uses word "boundary" it is clear indication to me that this person does not understand what is happening under the hood. It is clear indication you are not aware of external reference locus of control concept. And this means you are not aware you place your own self worth in other people - whereas on deep subconscious level you believe you are inept and wrong, by default.
There is no boundary - this is invention of self help gurus. Think about it logically - if you build a wall - then you are avoiding people, you put yourself in prison. We have need to create friendships and interact with people - and you can't do that with "boundaries".
What "boundary" means is having self worth inside ourselves. It is called intrinsic locus of control. Where I believe I am competent and I can make decisions without someone approving it. When I truly believe I can trust my common sense and my mistakes and flaws - I will naturally know what I want. With my self worth being exported onto external reference locus of control (trauma bonding) - I will never know what I truly want. Everything will be judged my myself and presumed from the position of other people, what other people approve. When I allow myself to be honest, authentic - I do not need any instruction how to act or talk with people. I simply state what I want and need, with self worth being inside me - as oppose being placed in other people - where I see other people as gods and that believing other people hold ultimate truth about anything life.
Again, having issue to decline someone is result of trauma, complex trauma. It is being conditioned like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals into subservience and obeying others, seeing other people's words as command. It is inferiority complex.
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" Self Preservation Is Never Rude" That is true, but it sets the tone to over-react and have social allergies. You do not explain happens when we over-react and when we perceive danger where there is none objectively. Due to Complex Trauma we will be prone to explain certain innocuous situations as danger. Why instead of preservation we do not use words as : being honest. Being transparent. Voicing out the elephant in the room (something that is dead obvious but for strange and mysterious reason, nobody speaks about it).
Also, what happens when you meet borderliners and manipulators, Machiavellian - with your advice, you want to clear things out and talk with them. Guess what happens next - these people thrive on talking and convincing and gaslighting, this is their arena. And you end up with drama, constant drama, where problems spring up and you are not aware you are being teased by them. So the natural reaction is "let them go", as you said. But this is where it gets complex. Emotional vampires are hard to recognize, and we might end up scapegoating people who are innocent - and we end up alone since everyone will appear as emotional vampire. Also, there are situations where you cannot just leave and let them go. Due to Maslow needs - you are forced to be with difficult people (job, security, finances, service, help).
So you do not mention codependency issues that are connected to people pleasing. The need to fix other people, control them, demanding that people should behave in certain ways. This escalates quickly and we may end up being drama queens and Karens where we have chronic worry and hypervigilance over whether if someone is emotional vampire or not.
So your need for self-preservation and recognizing people who act toxically with time transforms into chronic worry, intrusive thoughts, intrusive worry, hyperalertness. This is trauma - that was never dealt with. You deal with symptoms (in form of people who trigger us) - but you do not address trauma itself. This hyper-alarm system to detect wrong behaviour by others will make us react to people who behave toxic - and this will attract narcissists. This is why sensitive people attract manipulators like moth to a flame.
Trauma means lack of love, being ok with making mistakes and having flaws, being ok when we embarrass ourselves. Toxic shame means we deep down see ourselves as inept and wrong and wrong by default. I would address this hallucination as the only deep way to address people pleasing issues, as oppose to decision as reacting to people and seeing other people as war zone and threat.
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I personally do not like word "boundary". It suggest energy wasted on maintaining it and it also suggest something that can be broken. What I see as "boundary" is simply being honest and transparent. Speaking the truth as it is. Voicing out the elephant in the room.
When someone speaks something that is offensive - I have to see it from every angle instead of tunnel vision and observing it from ego-centric perspective. Is this person always rude, 24/7 - or are they rude because something terrible happened to them a minute ago? If I "set boundary" - I will focus either on my symptoms or other person symptoms - I will zoom onto to close - so boundary will create chronic worry and hyperalertness where I expect someone will be aggressive and I must fight - which can turn into allergy, over-reaction, seeing danger where there is none. Especially if I have history of Complex Trauma and social anxiety and toxic shame - where due to inner deep belief I am worthless I put my self worth in other people - thus my mood and emotions are matching to others due to trauma bonding.
As oppose to having "boundary" - I would lean rather on being honest, authentic - with mistakes included. This means, if someone is hysterical - instead of being nice, or trying not to participate in it - I would go along with my hunch and how I would react if self worth is really inside me, as oppose to other people - being afraid of seen embarrassed in other people's eyes. This means, I could employ techniques and reactions that I've learned from all the resources. It means, depending on the situation - I may allow myself to over-react and be hysterical (whereas I am always calm and kind and nice). Or instead of urge to be toxic masculine and urge to yell and scream - I may calculate the situation and person to wait and gather all information I can get to see what is going on. Instead of being guided by expectation of what other people would want me to be - I place guidance from within, self worth being inside me, using my common sense to guide me. As people pleaser I would self censor myself and shut up even though someone would accuse me of unfair and false data. I knew I had to set boundaries, as I read and watched in you tube videos - but this urge to set boundary only caused me panic attacks and more additional anxiety - since now I have to perform and act. It came out unnatural. I see having self worth inside us as the only boundary, everything comes out naturally when I cast off toxic shame (believing I am inept and other people are superior) - instead when I believe and trust my own resources and inner guidance - with mistakes included - is the best "boundary". It does not exist. Toxic people will feel repelled by truth, narcissists hate transparency. I do not need to yell and scream the truth - i can speak it out in calm manner, without drama and hysteria. IF someone says to me that I must have boundaries - I will become hysterical because it feel unnatural to me, since my self worth is located in external reference locus of control-
I see putting self worth back to ourselves as the only healthy thing to do and allow our inner system guide us in protection - once self worth is inside us where it belongs.
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(15.1.2022)
Thank you. Please take my comment as peer review, not as harsh criticism.
I will leave you with the final thought: narcissists and manipulators who are very skillful at using Dark psychology and manipulating others - their first reaction to someone speaking the truth will be: "you are annoying", "you are taking it too personally", "you are too sensitive" and "you are over-reacting". This is called Gaslighting. These people shift blame onto others and evoke guilt in others. Guilt is used as a tool to control easy targets, to hypnotize others into subservience, self-censorship and shutting up. Thus they can do whatever they want - exploiting easy targets for their own hidden agenda.
I know what you are really talking about - it is about us over-reacting and appearing as hysterical drama queens - however we can tune our words, we can sugarcoat it. We can choose how our words will come out in what tone and what way - but absolutely the worst thing to do is to shut up to what we perceive as evil. We will end up with moral injury and plethora of neurosis, simply by shutting up and staying silent. For example, we can learn instead of being hysterical and yelling back at others - we can simply say "I disagree". Without drama and without explosions.
If we self-censor yourselves, we are giving a green light to abusers to continue their abuse.
"Normal" and healthy people will stutter and they will react with shock when you warn and alert them. The unhealthy and manipulative people will attack you automatically, immediately and they will totally ignore your warning.
Therefore our own words are litmus test to see with whom we are dealing with. If we pathologize our intuition as something very bad, embarrassing or stupid, and if we demonize our discomfort inside us as something irrelevant and something that bothers other people who are clearly unreasonable, we are going along with evil in this world.
Thomas Mann said: "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil".
Again, I will leave with the words of Elaine N. Aron from her book about HSP, she said; "HSPs tend to fill that advisor role. What bring is a tendency to think about all the possible effects of an idea. Often we have to make ourselves unpopular by stopping the majority from rushing ahead. Thus to perform our role well, we have to feel very good about ourselves."
(16.1.2022)
Complex Trauma and exposure to narcissistic abuse is causing brain damage, brain injury - which influences our thoughts in detrimental manner: being stuck in worry and pessimism (intrusive thoughts), we will default to immobility/passivity, and seeing the world black automatically (cognitive distortions).
That is why it is important to make the correction: To step out of the car and to give it a push. This means shifting focus on things to be done, tasks and dreams that we would not remember to think about, since our thoughts default to intrusive worry loop, rumination cycle and resentment and thus inactivity. This does not mean toxic positivity, ignoring the negative - it is about realization that our injured mind will be distorted due to brain injury and it is up to our common sense to get out of the car and give it a push out of the mud, where it is stuck.
We can't wait on our brain to feel good, chirpy and positive and courageous - due to brain injury this is impossible, (brain injury and wound = being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria in our trauma childhood) because it never will, it is injured, wound is ingrained in the brain (google; long term narcissistic abuse cause brain damage). The injury prevents it from kicking out of the mud (worry rumination), as hapless & oblivious kids we learned that we automatically try to give our panicked brain a push by rumination and avoidance and PureOCD, but these immature ego defense mechanisms will not work, since Descartes mind-body dualism (Cartesian Dualism); The body is injured, so the brain needs our help to get activated again, so we have to decide our mind to guide us in life instead of our injured brain. That is what Joel is talking about here: "You have to kick your will into gear. 'I will enjoy this day'. Your will is going to override how you feel. Mark of maturity is when you can be happy even when things aren't going your way. That your joy is not based on your circumstances. You control your own happiness."
In official mental health industry this is called: "Behavioral activation therapy".
Toxic positivity is ignoring the reality and ignoring the wound and injury. This is not toxic positivity, this is accepting your limitation and working on your life in spite of it. It is realization that our injury is preventing us from experiencing positivity so it is up to our decisions to provide it - since our brain is unable to do it on its own. Brain is unable to make us happy due to traumatic circumstances which were not our fault.
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(17.1.2022)
@Reg In the mean time I did find the solution. Narcissistic abuse causes brain damage (google this). It creates brain injury. We have brain injury due to trauma and CPTSD. This injury defaults our thinking in being stuck with intrusive worry and pessimism. Therefore, the solution is to get out of the car and give it a push, as if it is stuck in the mud. This means, change focus deliberately. This does not mean to fight intrusive worry or engage with intrusive thoughts. It means shifting focus onto tasks at hand, job that must be done that we otherwise would all forget about it since we would try to find solution to worry and rumination. It is about deliberately getting unstuck from tunnel vision thinking onto chores at hand, some activity, it is about getting active. Injury will make us immobile, passive, frozen. Also it will make us believe that the world is black, so we have to be positive on force. So the thinking is without force - being optimistic is with force. In official mental health industry this is called Behavioural Activation Therapy. We wait for our brain to solve the worry problem - it never will. We wait for our brain to feel good enough to move on - it never will due to injury. The brain is injured, it has injury inside it due to trauma and so it is our task to help the brain out of the rut. By using our common sense instead of relying on our thoughts. Anxiety will lie to us. We trust our anxiety, while anxiety has credibility of car-salesman. Inside we have depository of all accumulated knowledge, internet database what to do and how to move on - Freud called this Super-Ego. Our intention to listen to this intuition and instinct inside what is the best course of action is anti-dote to injury. The complex problem is toxic shame internalized as external reference locus of control (trauma bonding) where we seek external validation from others. This also makes us stuck, since we try to people please others, as we learned in toxic childhood, we were hypnotized into subservience and conditioned like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals into inferiority complex. This means, we distrust our abilities, we see ourselves inept and wrong by default - so subconsciously we believe other people must guide us, and other people are gods and everything they say is ultimate truth and we must forfeit our space, opinion and words to obey others. So, it is about shifting self worth back where it belongs - inside us. We can trust ourselves inside, this is called intrinsic locus of control. Due to imposed and implanted guilt, we are unable to draw decisions from inside us, since double binding lessons from childhood taught us to distrust ourselves - where anything we do is wrong by default. This is true even when we make the correct and right decisions, right action, we place boundary, speak the truth, we don't self-censor ourselves - and then we feel guilty, shame and blame. We do this automatically and we are totally unaware we distrust ourselves. We can allow ourselves to make fool of ourselves in public, to be embarrassed, to make mistakes, we do not have to be perfect and always trying to be perfect (as instructed in dysfunctional childhood by mentally ill people in our midst).
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Yeah, what I am talking about is and advocating is that we change the way how we perceive "taking things personally".
Instead of seeing it as issue and problem (as instructed by society which dislikes truth and work and getting better and improvement) - it is about perceiving it as a gift. It is that we realize we are being able to detect faulty system and error and injury - so it is our task to transform this into a task - without drama, without explosions, without wars.
We have extremely intelligent and sensitive instrument inside us, so we have to start using it, instead of pathologizing our over-sensitivity (as instructed by society that likes crab mentality and immobility).
It is not easy to 1) realize this sensitive tool inside us 2) to disregard drama from other people and not engage into their hysteria that dislikes being told what to do in correct manner 3) to express our over-reaction in calm manner with concrete steps and instructions or even by leaving toxic environment.
So the first step would be getting information and learning about psychology, philosophy and sociology in order to make sense of our over-sensitivity and taking everything personally. That is our calling.
Instead of ignoring or engaging in over-sensitivity - it is about learning how it works and how can we employ it in functional manner. What I see from my experience - it is about learning about trauma (since we will most probably have issues related to Complex trauma). We can learn about people pleasing (common but dysfunctional way to quickly remove fear and panic) is related to internalized toxic shame.
As we accept our "taking things personally" as something normal - we can allow other people to be who they are, we can stop controlling them - and this will paradoxically allow us to stop taking things personally, and we will be able to focus on expressing out our opinions, thoughts, experience and wisdom without drama and hysteria that would we otherwise feel, as the result of not knowing why we over-react in the first place.
People will dislike truth. People will dislike being told what to do. People will dislike action and activity, people like being stuck in comfort zone even when it is toxic, dysfunctional and violent. They will label us as weird. If we do not like ourselves, if we do not accept ourselves as we are (being sensitive) - we will believe their accusations, we will trauma bond with loud and aggressive people, fawning to them. Society dislikes anything related to personal growth.
Society in general likes being greedy and quick stimuli rewards. So of course they will explain that there is something wrong with us, that we are the ones who take things personally, not them.
So our task is to be one step ahead. We have to both express our over-sensitivity with being objective, with facts, without personal attack and without Ad hominem, and in the same time knowing our own fears and anxiety will lie to us and try to scare us into self-censorship and fawning to others.
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I would rather focus on mechanisms we employ to deal with anxiety. Usually these fall into category of immature ego defense mechanism, and they are detrimental because they keep anxiety ongoing. PureOCD also tells us that rituals we do to keep anxiety and intrusive worry at bay are actually keeping chronic worry ongoing.
Instead of analyzing other people and trying to divide them in "safe" and "unsafe" ones I would rather focus on being honest and authentic and transparent as general mentality. This means, if someone is manipulative - this person will dislike me being objective and they will go away on their own, since narcissistic people insist on gaslighting and silence of their target. If I detect people as dangerous, the brain will give me more danger to detect, since it will try to make me safe. It is a loop of danger detection that will progressively metastasize. Soon everything will bother me and I will label everyone as toxic. Paradoxically due to anxiety and fears I will fawn and people please truly dangerous people, and also observing myself as the good one and positive one, I will demand perfection from other people, not allowing them to make mistakes - I will choke myself to be perfect and expect perfectionism from other people. This is magical loop cycle of social anxiety. Paradoxically I will be convinced that I must be good all the time, not allowing myself to express annoyance or anger - and subconsciously I will have extreme hard time accepting that there are bad and dangerous people out there in real life - because we perceive the world from what we feel and what we are inside. What will happen next - is that I will not leave toxic relationship. I will trauma bond with others, especially if they are rude, angry and negative all the time, since such people will employ dark psychology and gaslighting on easy targets - people who demand goodness in the world. This is Jung suppression of dark shadow - creating imbalance. If I allow myself to be stupid, bad, wrong, mistaken, I will not feel embarrassed in the public when I do make fool of myself. I will allow others to be "bad", without demands and pressure to control other people. Trying to control other people is cognitive distortion. Bad and toxic and dangerous people demand natural reaction - not our ideology or our image of perfection that social anxiety tries to convince us to believe in. The best example of what I am talking about for people who find this perplexing is the movie "The Incident" with young Martin Sheen from 1967. The group of innocent passengers are angry and rude to each other whom they know, but as two young hooligans come aboard, they are all silent and do not react to the violence, because they try to be good, to be civilized, they believe they must be good and the bad people should be ignored. Another example is "A Clockwork Orange" from 1971 by Stanley Kubrick, where the main character, the former hooligan after medical hypnosis brainwashing is unable to react to abuse, he is passive and does not defend himself.
"Overthinking" It is label imposed by society unaccustomed to HSP. The society does not understand HSP. Society will give us explanation from their own limited perspective. If we have social anxiety - it is a sign we have been exposed to mentally ill person while we were growing up, in our developmental age. Also , having social anxiety means we are highly sensitive to people and life. We have ability to see and observe life from many angles and many perspectives, much more than common people. Then the society tries to explain this extraordinary ability as overthinking, something to be cured. This ability to see life from many angles is not being ego-centric. Actually the common folks are paying a lot of money to learn how not to be ego-centric. Piaget named the final stage in human development - to overcome ego-centrism. When we have ability to have empathy and put ourselves in other people shoes, we are grown ups, we are civilized person who has ability to self-actualize, since the most highest form of life is interdependence. Most people have hard time to achieve this level - since most people will be greedy, selfish and respond to quick stimuli to satisfy their urges, something like animals. We have this ability naturally. Then the society who dislikes progress and growing up and thinking about their actions in advance - will try to stop people like us due to crab mentality. They will ashame us and try to control us by imposing guilt and blame and shame. The best way to control other people is through shame. When we see our ability to overthink as something positive, we will not pathologize ourselves, and thus stop creating additional neurosis and anxiety.
"accepting yourself" Yeah. You cannot accept yourself if you divide good and bad people - because you will repeat this pattern inside yourself. You will create and label rejected parts inside you, so thus you will not accept yourself. If you go along with herd mentality, you will label your ability to see everything from multiple dimensions as overthinking - you are not accepting yourself.
I would start overcoming anxiety with learning about Complex Trauma. As kids we probably never received the messages and information about HSP, and instead we got shame, guilt and blame = trauma.
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"Anxious, nervous" This is not social anxiety's fault. This is Complex Trauma. Social anxiety is symptom, it is not the cause.
"At the core of everything, identifying root causes why nervous system is anxious, why can't you be open to people" I see at the core being HSP. And society does not like someone who is able to detect the wrong. Society will try to label it as "weird" and "wrong". Usually social anxiety starts in teen years, when being bullied. This is because of crab mentality, where people do not like different people. I am talking about "Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions is a satirical novella by the English schoolmaster Edwin Abbott Abbott, first published in 1884 " - where we see 2D creatures reacting with irritation and anger when they meet 3D creatures. This is why bullies sniff out when someone is threatening them to be exposed as bullies. Crab mentality dislikes someone who is trying to get out of the bucket.
"Flight response" This is totally normal response to abnormal situation, abnormal people and abnormal events.
"Responding with smiling, pretending it is not happening, avoidance" "That behaviour I picked up carried when I get older" Yeah, but this is totally normal reaction. If you pathologize it - you will not become strong and macho man by scapegoating it. You will become pushover, people pleaser. You will try to fawn to fantasy idea that there is society that knows what the rules are - and you will try to fawn to these magical rules (which are actually non existent). This will lead to double binding - whatever we do will not be ok. This all comes from toxic shame, internalized belief that we are wrong and we therefore export our self worth onto others, external reference locus of control, we trauma bond with others. The solution is to bring back self worth where it naturally belongs - inside us. This means: being ok with being anxious. Seeing it as HSP, not pathologizing our anxiety. It is being ok with flight response to trauma. It is totally normal reaction to trauma and toxic behaviour from others.
"action toward what I wanted" This is actually related to brain damage concept. It is not about pathologizing our natural reactions and going against them. Please let me explain this concept: Long term narcissistic abuse causes brain damage (google these words). Trauma will create brain injury. Brain injury will default our thinking in being stuck, having intrusive thoughts, intrusive worry and pessimism. It is like being stuck in the mud or driving on the ice. What we need to do to help our brain is - to step out of the car and give it a push. This means changing focus on things that need to be done, action to fight immobility. It is like when you forget to take your keys when you leave the apartment so you lock yourself out because you were worrying and ruminating and trying to solve a problem which cannot be solved. Instead we change our focus from rumination and Pure OCD onto chores and tasks at hand, our dreams. In official mental health industry this is called "Behavioural Activation Therapy". Our brain is unable to help itself. We have to help our brain to get unstuck. Our brain will never be able to feel good enough to be active and optimistic, due to injury from trauma. This means to rely on our common sense instead of waiting on our brain to make decisions about anything in life. Anxiety lies to us, it has credibility of car-salesman. Instead, once we bring self worth back to ourselves, when we believe in our capacity to handle and manage life with mistakes included, when we are being ok with making fool of ourselves and being embarrassed in public - we can deposit inner knowledge from our super-ego : archive of all gathered information, our intuition and our instinct to guide us, instead of toxic shame that aligns with external other people.
"clarity who you want to be in the future" People with internalized toxic shame do not have this clarity. IT is because they believe (due to brain injury and trauma) that they are inept and wrong by default. So subconsciously, the brain will place self worth externally - which means seeking external validation. With your self worth exported, there is no clarity. There is only what other people want, to people please them, to worry what other people think and expect of you. IT means being afraid of making mistakes, being afraid of embarrassment. Since this is trauma bonding - this means being very sensitive to criticism because our self worth is place in other people. This means we seek guidance and orders from others, because we distrust our own opinion, expertise, we think we are inept. So you are unable to have clarity what you want to be. You know what others want you to be. And since other people are various and finicky - there is no clarity. This is not something you can change at the press of button if you are not aware of this external reference locus of control mechanism and concept.
"How social anxiety makes you feel" Once again, I would refrain from pathologizing social anxiety as something bad. It is mechanism, it is protective mechanism that helped us to survive trauma and toxic behaviour. Without it, we would become narcissists, we would blame others automatically. Without social anxiety we would exploit other people as response to trauma. We would become psychopaths if our personality never chosen social anxiety as protective cloak available to child brain that was faced with relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process it from intellectual point of view. If we pathologize social anxiety, we are not accepting ourselves. Social anxiety is part of us, it is intertwined with our personality. If we reject it, we will end up with Jung's rejected parts, dark shadow (described in Bradshaw's book Healing the shame that binds you). Instead we can perceive and observe social anxiety as mechanism, as phenomena, we can view it as something neutral. Thus we can stop being at civil war with ourselves.
"you want to be happier in relationship" This is called Salvation fantasy. This is part of trauma, that seems that if we only get rid of anxiety, that our lives will be magical and suddenly all problems will be forever gone from our lives. No, they will not. External world is something we cannot control- there is concept called Illusion of control/paradox of control. It tells us that when we try to meddle into motor and mechanism or storm - our pinpointing and fixing will only make it worse. There are certain things in life we can't control. Trying to control other people is cognitive distortion. What we can have is our natural reaction - which will not be natural if we do not accept ourselves fully as we are. This means being ok with our anxiety and fears and panic.
I see total acceptance as first step and our end goal will come naturally from this total acceptance. Total acceptance of social anxiety. PureOCD techniques will tell you that rituals and mechanisms you do are part of disorder. Instead, it is suggested to shift focus, and to accept anxiety, not to fight it. Not to see it as something to be cured - you simply shift focus on living.
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"Care too much what people think" This is due to Complex Trauma. It is being exposed to narcissistic abuse while growing up (someone ashaming you, being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process it).
As you said, I do not see it as disorder. It is called as "disorder" by official mental health industry because it blocks life, it blocks person to live their life, however social anxiety is psychological defense mechanism, totally normal reaction to abnormal situation, abnormal people and abnormal events. Without social anxiety we would become narcissists and manipulators - we would be quick to judge and attack others, whereas social anxiety is being quick in judgement of oneself.
Yeah, it is about rewiring your brain, however you have to know what to rewire and where to look, to realize what is wrong. With social anxiety, it is trauma that is creating the disorder and dysfunctional responses to life situations.
"to force yourself to do things you don't want to do" This is what classical CBT tried to do in early 1990s - however this will not make trauma go away. It will leave people to become people pleaser, pushover and to fawn to others. Because toxic shame is making socially anxious person to place own self worth in other people - seeing others as gods. Where I am not allowed to make mistake, I am not allowed to make fool of myself - and I must listen and observe other people for instructions and orders about anything in life. Instead of forcing yourself to do things you don't want to do - it is about placing self worth back where it belongs - inside us. This means, trusting your common sense, being ok with making a fool of yourself, being fine with mistakes, being honest, and genuine and voicing out the elephant in the room. Since social anxiety is the result of trauma - I would see complex trauma information as beneficial. Social anxiety is also a part of HSP - so this is also about accepting our anxiety as normal:
"They see us as timid, shy, weak, or unsociable. Fearing these labels, we try to be like others. But that leads to our becoming overaroused and distressed. Then that gets us labeled neurotic or crazy, first by others then by ourselves. The Highly Sensitive Person, Elaine N. Aron"
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"so that your fears no longer control you" It is not fears. It is trauma. It is Complex Trauma. Social anxiety is nothing to be overcomed. Social anxiety is natural and normal reaction to abnormal situation, abnormal people and abnormal events. Fears are normal when you are traumatized. Without them you would become narcissist and psychopath - blaming others and abusing others, creating more trauma in world.
"Try starting small, less intimidating interactions" This CBT advice leads to people pleasing, being pushover and fawning. Some people do not deserve to be trusted. Some people use friendship, opennes and talking in ordder to gain data that they will use later on when their borderline drama hour kicks in.
"Breathing exercices" "Muscle relaxation" "relaxing ritual" The same as PureOCD - the rituals we do in order to calm anxiety are part of anxiety. This only creates the demand and urge to calm down by performing safety rituals. This created chronic worry and hypervigilance. Once we tell our brain something is dangerous - it will not solve it. Instead the brain will create more OCD rituals to fight fears, brain is built that way. Brain will notice that we feel good when we fight anxiety and this will create PureOCD intrusive worry loops cycles where it will give us more and more tasks and rituals to overcome. Rituals are road to OCD.
"beat anxiety" Why don't we look at anxiety as symptom. Not something to pathologize, and thus creating additional neurosis. If we know that Social anxiety falls under the umbrella of complex trauma (CPTSD) - then we can learn about external reference locus of control ie trauma bonding which will explain why we fawn to others and why we can't shake off other people's criticism. We will learn Polyvagal Theory - which will explain why we get triggers and flashbacks and that our brain gets amygdala hijacking - which explains physical symptoms as fears and panic - something that is reaction to trigger, not something to cure. We would waste valuable time, energy and money on healing something natural, instead we can focus on trauma and learning about it more and more in order to understand Social anxiety as mental pheonmena, not some wart to get rid off. With civil war inside our head we will create only more anxiety.
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"you may notice heart rate, blushing..." "bring your friend" This labeling practice would pathologize normal reaction. If I listen to society that demonizes normal reactions like having fears as something extremely dangerous, I would get additional anxiety and neurosis. And ritual like "bringing someone along with me" is PureOCD - ritual that is actually contributing to more anxiety. People with social anxiety in the end do not have anyone with them, since they have social anxiety, they do not form friendships - because they have social anxiety. Just imagine what would happen if we listen to classical CBT that is demonizing physical symptoms as something very dangerous and extremely unwelcome: you become people pleaser and pushover, and you react to trauma triggers by fawning to others. Without fears, it was shown by research - people do not become courageous neither strong nor macho dominant - they in fact become naive. People swindle them easily. So fears are normal human emotions, they have their own purpose and should not be demonized. In the end, What would prevent us from observing our over-reaction as neutral? Something that is related to HSP. A mechanism, fine tune tool that is in our mind and that has superior ability to detect details other people are too dumb to notice. If we ignore it, we will become dumb as any other person - and that is what crab mentality would like to do.
Social anxiety trigger is Complex Trauma - it is being exposed to narcissistic abuse during growing up, being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when child brain was unable to process adult hysteria other than developing immature ego defense mechanisms.
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Social anxiety is not related to ability or inability to talk to strangers. It is not something you get rid of. If you label and perceive as anxiety as something detrimental you will self-prophesize yourself into neurosis and chronic worry. And, even worse, you simply become people pleaser, pushover and develop fawning as automatic response to stress.
Social anxiety is related to social event that you imagine what might happen before the event, and post mortem analysis after the event. Some people do not deserve to be talked to. There are manipulators and exploiters out there or borderliners who appear as talkative friends, but they only gather data from you, that they will abuse later on, when their drama hour kicks in.
Unfortunately google can make us diagnose ourselves easily, so if we have mild shyness we will easily identify it as social anxiety. The problem is that people with real social anxiety - who do not feel comfortable even after facing their fears, that they will be convinced that there is something wrong with them since they still feel uncomfortable in social situations.
Social anxiety is part of Complex Trauma, it is being exposed to mentally ill person while growing up, being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria that child brain was unable to process other than developing immature ego defense mechanisms. So by labeling your anxiety as something sick, you are repeating this abandonment trauma and lack of acceptance and love, all over again. You are rejecting parts of yourself, Jung called them dark shadow, and Bradshaw spoke to them as rejected parts in his book "Healing the shame that binds you".
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Great message, but.. sometimes we may over-react and interpret rudeness when in reality there is none. Sometimes we are convinces people hate us when they do not, they simply state their biases and logical fallacies that appear as reality to them. So our belief they hate us is problem here, interpreting hate when there is none in the first place. That belief that other people hate us just because they are honest is part of social anxiety.
This is also called Porcupine dillemma: " the best compromise is to find a safe distance where their quills don't meet but the cold is still tolerable"
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I learned that people pleasing is not actually about inability to say no. It is connected to trauma. Can you imagine what happened to a grown up person who is afraid of conflict and saying no to someone? What amount or narcissistic abuse and psychological abuse there had to happen to make someone people please and be pushover as adult?
Then I see self-help books as detrimental, since they try to monetize someone's trauma and mental inhibitions.
"prioritize your goals" Person who is people pleasing was exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria while growing up. This caused internalized toxic shame- belief that you are unworthy and inept as human being, inferior and you must trust other people as your gods, obey others and be subservient to others. This is called "external reference locus of control" - trauma bonding - and for some unknown (probably financial) reason - modern self help gurus will not talk about that because then the person would figure out what to do. Instead, financial gurus that exploit mental health problems will tell you to prioritize your goals - while in fact you are unable to have goals, since your worth is externalized outside yourself. We have to bring self worth back inside us, where it belongs. Only then we can have and make goals and prioritize. With external validation and approval addiction, our goals are connected to external - other people and their approval.
"set boundaries" I dislike word "boundary". It suggest that we have to invest money time and energy into building a wall. This means we see everyone as enemy. Instead of natural reaction, we create chronic worry and hypervigilance - always expecting phantom enemy trying to break our walls. Walls means they can be broken. I see more effective way - forgiveness and letting go of resentment. This means people in the past who done us wrong - and we are no longer in contact with them - forgive them, otherwise they will always be inside our mind, we will have our mind plagued with them, hanging on our walls. Instead of protection we will paradoxically get flooded with people who done us wrong. By letting go of resentment, we will banish them into oblivion - much more effective way to deal with difficult people from our past. In the present I will try the following, connected to your advice:
"how to say no" "giving time and evaluate" This is connected to external reference locus of control, where we see other people as gods, and we see them as someone who give us orders and commands. We trauma bond with others, afraid to be genuine and honest. So - instead of saying no - and buying yourself a time - I would be transparent. Honest. Genuine. Totally. speaking out the truth. voicing out the elephant in the room. If we placed our self worth where it belongs - inside us - we would not seek external validation and approval from others, so we would not mind their reaction, our mood would not be associated with their response, being positive or negative.
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(18.1.2022)
I see "nice guy" syndrome related to trauma while growing up, Complex Trauma. It is not something you can change by the press of the button or when someone tells you "you are too nice". It is being exposed to mentally ill person while you were growing up, someone who criticized a child relentlessly 24/7 and being exposed to adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process the narcissistic abuse as psychological abuse and it is abnormal.
Therefore the child will internalize toxic shame, believing I am inept by default and other people are gods and their every words is command - inferiority complex and external reference locus of control, trauma bonding, Stockholm syndrome. I believe I am worthless, and of course in order to function in this life I have to place my self worth in other people hands - and never annoy them, since my self worth is in external - at other people.
Also some people have higher level of intelligence and sensitivity than most of the society. So of course the society will due to crab mentality label this as being "Too nice" and something to deride.
If one person has no ability for empathy and self control, this person is psychopath, narcissist, manipulator, exploiter, user, abuser.
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Peterson is toxic himself. He is prone to shortcuts, oversimplifications, he is bad psychologist - he is unable to withdraw learned knowledge and incorporate it into his ideas - instead he reads something then he forms opinion and standpoint. A week later, he reads another book and comes up with totally contradicting ideas and talks about it - he has no standpoint or definition of mental health - he is adjusting it in order to sell and marketing his ideas.
He often says be monster and show teeth - now he talks about dangers of toxic people. First he instructs people to be toxic, then he changes his own instructions into - toxic is bad.
And this is the problem itself - he is making instructions for people. Psychologist do not do that, because you are disabling people energy, worth and ability to make decisions on their own. He is enabling people to stay invalid. He is telling that you are unable to make your own conclusions, that we must pay him to tell us how to think and make decisions in life. This is Machiavelism = exploiting easy targets that are not sure about making decisions and people who are not sure what to think. Thus he is toxic himself.
"you have to be brutal bastard": 4:58 There you go - he is instructing people to be toxic in video about avoiding toxic people. He is ambiguous in all his statements because he can always speak afterwards when he is confronted - that he did not mean it. That you understood him incorrectly. He is Machiavellist. He is toxic person.
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Psychologist describing people with issues as "losers". Red flag! Something is wrong here. Peterson is twisting facts - to sell & marketing himself. Similar to Trump, he is using Machiavelism tactics to exploit the masses. He is basing his lecture on a movie? Movie is not real life.
I see Jordan Peterson's mentality as Homer Simpson's sperm : a world of giant heads running around and bumping onto other sperm with their giant heads. They have no idea where they are going and what is their goal, but they keep running around hysterically and since it is the world of inflated narcissistic heads, they only bump onto other heads.
If you are pushover and too agreeable, do not listen to him. He says it is not under your control. That is a lie. He is selling himself as saviour, that you pay to him to get instructions and make decisions in life by financing him. There is a way to take your life in control. Being pushover is sign of trauma, it is called CPTSD, Complex Trauma - being exposed to narcissistic abuse while growing up: being exposed to mentally ill people such as Peterson, with relentless criticism 24/7 in an age when you are growing up, when mistakes are natural and normal. His criticism is form of toxic shame - he is using guilt to impose it on you, to hypnotize you into subservience to him. This is what narcissists do. He is mentally ill person and he uses shame and guilt to control you. He says, be jerk, be monster to other people and listen to him as guide. He is spreading mental illness onto new people, who are too young to place self worth inside yourself where it belongs. You do not need quacks like him to tell you who you are and you do not need mentally ill people like him to label you as correct or loser. You can speak your own mind and think for yourself. Being honest and authentic is the only way. Pathologizing yourself will lead you to chronic worry and mental instability. That is his goal, to make you mental unstable, as he is himself.
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"people that seem nice " Is generalizing, it is a form of cognitive distortion - overgeneralization. Narcissistic people are charmful and friendly and appear needy - and if you have codependent issues you will try to fix them. Therefore you are the problem. You have cognitive distortions running wild and you see other people as someone who is giving you guidance, someone who is defining your actions, opinions and thoughts. You base your mood on other people - this you give them incredible control over your life, your mind, your emotions.
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"conscious effort, compassion for yourself, take experience personally, act timid about others, remind yourself you did the best in that moment, view embarrassing experiences as learning, review your goals" This all stem from toxic shame. Toxic shame stem from trauma in childhood, where child was exposed to mentally ill people in their vicinity (relentlessly criticized 24/7 and being exposed to adult hysteria). So of course if I believe I am inept - I will place my self worth in other people hands, external referencing locus of control, and as such I will not be able to make any effort, it will depend on other people. I will not have compassion for myself since I believe I am worthless. I will take everything personally since I have injury and I align my emotions to other people, I will act timid since my self worth is synchronized with other people and not myself, I will not be able to remind myself because I will be in constant outlook to people please others and chronic worry thus I will be in amygdala hijacking and operating from amygdala, I will see everything as embarrassing because I perceive other people as gods due to external reference locus of control.
"shift your focus" Yeah, that is Behavioural activation therapy - to shift focus from rumination onto tasks. But you can't do that if you are hypnotized into guilt and toxic shame. I need to become aware I was abused and narcissistic abuse cause brain damage that will default my thinking into rumination and immobility and pessimism.
"remove toxic people" Yeah, but when your Maslow needs are connected to toxic people , you are forced to be around them (job, security, finances, help, service). I would rather work on self worth and placing it back where it belongs, inside me. Anything other, all instructions will dissapear due to Ebbinghaus Forgetting Curve.
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5 seconds into video and he is throwing labels. Labels carry toxic shame and imposed and implanted guilt. Guilt is hypnosis, it is the best way to control other people. You make them feel guilty for who they are. Once you control them, you have sheep and zombies that you exploit and can harvest. What Peterson is doing is dark psychology. He is Machiavellist. He is exploiting human need for understanding and people who have no knowledge in psychology, so people think they are listening to someone competent and healthy. He is mentally ill. He is narcissist. Exploiter. Parasite who is exploiting easy targets.
Check these psychologist, and compare them to this quack: Dan Ariely Robert Greene Adam Grant
"treat people with respect" While in his other videos he will instruct you to be monster and to show teeth, that being too agreeable is sin that leads to being pushover, he says. That is what he is doing, his every video is contradicting the previous one. He reads one book and then he draws conclusions from that source. Tomorrow, he reads another resource and speaks shortcuts and logical fallacies from that one. He is unstable.
"it's from uphill that we deride our value" This is sign he does not understand psychology. The only correct and healthy value is the one inside you. Everything other is external reference locus of control. External validation is the core of mental instability and neurosis and chronic worry.
"You are here to live and not to sleep" Like, if he did not tell this we would all sleep in the streets and never work for money to support ourselves. He is talking rubbish. He is babbling.
This man has some serious issues.
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There are two types of nice guys: 1) Machiavellist - the one you describe. Narcissist will often play victim, vulnerable and appear needy, thus they will lure the opposite - codependent person who has desire to fix others. They abuse unwritten social etiquette of being nice for their own agenda. So, being nice is just a charm to lure traumatized people from the second group: 2) People who went through trauma - where they are being nice as being conditioned like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals into subservience and observing other people as gods, where every word is their command and ultimate truth that must not be put in question. Since narcissist fulfill their needs by exploiting others, they will find suitable target in people who are afraid of their "honesty" which is often displayed in form of temper tantrums, rage - by which they control easy targets, nice people. So, being nice is a hypnosis of guilt trip conditioning and conditioned body - where chemicals and hormones keep you addicted to external validation.
You can't lump these two groups of people together.
(19.1.2022)
I noticed in my case this is trauma bonding - and it is connected with toxic shame. Toxic shame as having core belief that I am inept and other people are competent and superior. Since I have this belief, I unconsciously place self worth in other people, since it cannot residue inside me - since I see myself as faulty and wrong by default. Then with this external referencing locus of control - I do not have ability to filter abusive people. From my perspective I will convince myself that I am weak and I should have employ toxic masculinity: being strong, that I have to endure abuse, that it is normal that people scream, yell, curse others, that other people temper tantrums are justified - and if I feel something wrong about it - then I am the one who is over-reacting, I am being too sensitive so I should I shut up. This kind of thinking is coming from toxic shame, deep core believe that I cannot trust myself, my super-ego inside me, that I cannot rely on my decisions and my own common sense - instead I seek guidance from other people, I seek other people's approval.
Now it is clear why I stay with toxic situations. It is because I see them as my guidance, I put self worth in them. I trauma bond with it, it is Stockholm Syndrome. When I learned about CPTSD - what I kept noticing is that mentors would speak about self worth and self love, but I had to have a click in my head to get it and understand what it means. I realized that I was expecting other people to tell me what to do, to make decisions about anything I can make on my own. I was expecting other people to be wrong and make mistake, and I believed in that way I will avoid another people's wrath and anger- since I would not be the one to blame for potential mistake. And the reason why I am in tune with other people's emotions and their moods and why mistake hurt me so much, not being perfectionist - is because I place self worth in other people. Other people are measure of what it is ok. Other people are measure when I should feel good. Other people are measure to explain me what is the ultimate truth about anything in life. Because toxic shame prevents me to have intrinsic value as my locus of control. Due to trauma, being exposed to adult hysteria and relentless criticism 24/7 as a child that is unable to process this psychological and narcissistic abuse in any other way other than internalizing toxic shame, deep core belief that I am inept, stupid and unworthy.
Also what I noticed is that abuse and toxic shame has a defense system, it has mechanism to keep us trapped in cycle of codependency, people pleasing and inability to filter out toxic situations. I am talking about being conditioned like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals into abuse. This means my body will work against myself. Long term abuse causes brain damage. So we have brain injury inside us that will keep us stuck in intrusive worry and pessimism. Also the body will produce plethora of chemicals and hormones that will be activated in situations when I want to stand up for myself, in situations when I do choose the correct decisions - to speak out the truth, to voice out the elephant in the room, to say no, to be honest - my body will react with adrenaline, heart beat, sweating - and also with guilt. So we have imposed and implanted guilt inside us that is controlling us to fawn and it keeps us in cycle of learned helplessness. Guilt is hypnotic emotion - you can control other people by shaming them and making them feel guilty. Marketing and politicians are employing this dark psychology manipulation without general public being aware of it.
That is how abuse get us in toxic situations and we miss all red flags. We explain ourselves that it is fine and we should endure it just to show external reference other people that we are strong and thus seek approval from them and validation.
Toxic shame is hallucination, it can be burst like a bubble. Self worth can be placed back where it belongs, inside us. I see people like Allen Ginsberg (beatnik pioneer) as inspiration to placing self worth inside ourselves. He said: "Follow your inner moonlight; don't hide the madness"
Also Elaine Aron kept on repeating the same message in her book "Highly Sensitive Person", that society will try to label us as weird, and our emotions as something wrong - while in fact it may be only a different and deeper way to process reality. If we label ourselves as weak, we will create additional fears and neurosis and chronic worry, unrelated to the original trauma or the way we process reality - by observing situations from all possible angles. This is why toxic shame is detrimental. Toxic shame makes us stuck in only one angle, only one point of view, the one that we were programmed in CPTSD childhood: something like - you have to be strong, you must not show emotions, you must be perfect, I am inept and other people are superior and they know how to make decisions about anything in life, while I am not allowed to make mistakes. So when we observe and perceive other people as gods, we will attract narcissists and manipulators like moth to a flame, since they seek needy and clingy people who are insecure. Then such toxic people will explain our way how we process reality as weird, wrong and inept - which will only confirm toxic shame virus already inside ourselves and keep trauma bonding firm and ongoing.
Elaine N. Aron says in her book about HSP: "Arousal does not have to be anxiety, so do not accept the label 'anxiety prone'. Arousal can just be overstimulation".
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Ok, this is diagnosis - on surface level. Can you imagine what happened to a person who apologized constantly, where you attract narcissists and manipulators and exploiters like moth to a flame who take advantage of you being an easy target to exploit, always automatically agree and self-censor yourself? This is not a choice. This is not something you can transform of change at the press of button. In fact, shaming others for trauma they have been through is form of toxic shame and you are contributing to abuse, without being aware of it.
If someone is people pleaser and pushover - this means this person was or still is under severe psychological and narcissistic abuse. This means this person have a mentally ill aggressive person in their vicinity. Someone who never sought psychological help, yet they spread hate and illness toward easy targets. Codependency is addiction, you were trained like circus animal and Pavlovian dogs into feeling panic and fears when you stand up for yourself. Now your whole body is pumping hormones and chemicals that are released when you want to voice out the elephant in the room and when you do a correct thing such as not people pleasing.
If anyone is struggling without being able to shake off criticism and perceived hate that may or may not be objective and real - learn more about CPTSD, trauma bonding, external validation, external reference locus of control, emotional dysregulation, Polyvagal Theory and toxic shame. Place self worth back where it belongs - inside yourself - instead of placing it in other people due to toxic shame (inferiority complex where we perceive other people as gods).
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I never employed yelling and screaming as response tactic, I used fawning and people pleasing to avoid people yelling and screaming.
In poor corrupt countries with general low IQ and high psychopathy percentage, such as at the Balkans, in fact yelling and screaming will be perceived as desirable, strong and masculine trait and it will get you promoted if you throw temper tantrums, since you will be perceived in toxic society as super strong person who is able to deal and manage stress - by abusing people with "lower status" and destroying mental health of other people around you who cannot defend themselves because they do not have the right connection/protection from higher classes (through mobbing, exploitation).
I knew I had issues with people pleasing for a very long time. And I've listen to advice to stop it, that I have to be aware that I must be honest, otherwise people will think I am manipulating them and that people will respect you when you confront their mistakes and voice out the elephant in the room .... but this never helped me. The cause of people pleasing was trauma. It was CPTSD. I am talking about being exposed as kid to relentless criticism 24/7, when child brain is unable to process adult hysteria other than developing immature ego defense mechanisms, codependency, addiction approval and fawning. It was survival mechanism in order to endure narcissistic and psychological abuse. Now I am trained like circus animal and Pavlovian dog into subservience, shutting up and self-censorship. Some people do react to such childhood trauma with temper tantrums and yelling - and they create new trauma by passing it on their own kids.
I learned that by learning Complex PTSD I learned all the dysfunctional ways I manage life - including people pleasing and being too nice. I learned concept called external reference locus of control where I put my self worth in other people due to internalized toxic shame (belief that I am inept to deal life and that I must see others as gods and take their words as personal command and ultimate truth about anything in life).
I am a bit confused how you connected being nice along with screaming & yelling. Being too nice is smiling back when people accuse you of false accusations. Being nice is being happy and cheerful all the time, and you do not allow yourself to natural reactions such as screaming back to hysterical person or not allowing myself in leaving them.
Person who is too nice is person who was exposed to unrecognized and untreated mentally ill person in their life. You cannot change that with awareness of you are being too nice. It cannot be changed by press of the button or heart-full talk. You cannot reason out being too nice, since it is ingrained in your brain as brain injury (being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse).
You cannot stop apologizing since you are hypnotized into inferiority complex. It is due to imposed and implanted guilt. This guilt will make you pump hormones and chemicals when you stop apologizing, because apologizing was brainwashed into your psyche dark psychology manipulation techniques. This cannot be logically erased from your brain. In fact, it will create moral injury, it will cause double binding - where you feel stress if you do something and you feel stress when you do not do something.
I see healing trauma, healing CPTSD as the only right and correct way to deal with people pleasing and fawning. Fawning is 4th trauma response. It is survival mechanism.
Without being so nice without dealing with trauma - you will end up as narcissist or mentally ill person. You will become very angry person - and you may end up with mass shooting because you are wrecking havoc in your psyche.
Being too nice is trauma response, but it is also now intertwined with personality. If you destroy it without healing trauma, you are doing the same as lobotomy: you get zombie person that does nothing unless you get guilt tripped into not being nice - which will lead you to being hysterical and violent with people. So I would be careful with advice to stop immature ego defense mechanisms. You will only give birth to new and additional dysfunctional responses to stress because your trauma psyche is wired for being victim or being abuser. The lack of love and being exposed to unrecognized mentally ill person twisted our perception, so we need the way out of cave, not making unnecessary surgeries in our mind which will only make additional neurosis and chronic worry.
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" to identify our cognitive distoritions!"
But it is also important to realize and understand - where did they come from? What happened in our life to lean and default to pessimism?
This is not something you learn in school or by reading kids books.
It was CPTSD. It was trauma in childhood - being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process it as madness yet it has internalized it as toxic shame (deep core belief of inferiority and being inept to manage life). It was being exposed to unrecognized and untreated mentally ill person that influenced our thoughts and thinking into mental instability. Or in short and sweet: It was lack of love.
Manipulators, narcissists and abusers are convinces that they can mask their mental illness. It can't. Lack of love will manifest itself in one way or another.
Long term narcissistic abuse cause brain damage (google it.) There is brain injury inside our brain and we are not aware of it. We think it is a quirk to see world black. We think it is caprice to overgeneralize. We think it is perk or something that has fallen out of sky.
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(20.1.2022)
I have social anxiety issues since 1989, and I've been trying to search for answers ever since 1996 through self-help and therapy. So I have both personal experience and knowledge about it.
What I noticed that there are a lot of fake, false and totally wrong information out there. Both by the mentors and official medical community. In most cases this is not because of intentional harm - people simply have no focus what is the real problem, so they jump to conclusions, biases - and this can be detrimental to person who listen to such advice- since it makes you stuck in labyrinth.
I realized the last year that it was CPTSD as the root cause of social anxiety. CPTSD is not recognized mental issue by official medical community. So if you have social anxiety and seek official resources (simply google it) most of them will not mention trauma from childhood as the cause. Most official resources are based on faulty 1990s research of CBT that focus only and exclusively on the symptoms.
If you are stuck with inhibitions related to other people, check out - google Complex Trauma (CPTSD). There are amazing you tube resources about it. IF you like my comment, check out my blog entries or YT videos about psychology.
I've wasted 32 years on trying to unsuccessfully resolve fears and anxiety, and now it is my goal to help others to live their lives, instead of being trapped in chronic worry and hypervigilance loop, trying to understand what is going on.
For example, I knew that people pleasing is huge problem for me, I knew in the year 2000 after I read one book about self esteem that through technique described in that book (keep asking yourself what does your fear mean to you) - that the root cause of my problem is worry what will other people think - but this information per se did not help at all. What I was missing was information about external reference locus of control and trauma bonding - and I found out this information and concept only after I found out about Complex Trauma.
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"I feel like anger is the hardest emotion for an infj to handle. Feels like your a different person and you can’t control it"
Enter Complex Trauma and being exposed to dysfunctional environment in early age when your personality develops. Then you do not allow yourself to be angry. You fawn and develop social anxiety. ---
" Just stop thinking you have to be a ppl pleaser to them or anyone else." Thinking is not problem. This is serious psychological issue, it is not something you can stop at the press of the button. Can you imagine what happened to a grown up person who is people pleasing? What amount of trauma happened to this person? What kind of mentally ill person aggressive and never treated or recognized as mentally ill - distorted the child's brain into people pleasing and subservience, from the early age on. I am talking about being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and being exposed to adult hysteria when child brain is unable to process it other than developing immature ego defense mechanisms and internalizing toxic shame (core belief that you are inept and other people are gods and hold ultimate truth to any problem solving in life)?
People pleasing is subconscious drive, it stems from trauma, being exposed to dysfunctional environment when you grew up. If it was easy to stop it, logic would correct being pushover.
Gaslighting, lack of love, manipulators, Machiavellians - they are out there to exploit your and to make you subservient to them. They are masters at it, they will not employ only one way to make you people please them. They are sick in the head and they are psychopaths. They will not come across as manipulators, though. They spend all their life in being skillful at exploiting other people and hypnotizing others. The easy targets are people who went through trauma in childhood, being set up to being afraid and serve narcissists.
Society unfortunately gives awards to sociopaths and it is observed by society it is normal to be asshole.
I learned people pleasing is related to trauma bonding - Stockholm Syndrome, where you see other people as ultimate truth witholders, and toxic shame makes you place your own self worth in other people - since you believe you are crap. This means you do not trust your own actions, opinions, thoughts and mistakes. You believe other people must tell you what to do in life. That is the motor behind people pleasing. Placing self worth back where it belongs is step to healing people pleasing. I am talking about realization that I can trust my own instincts, intuition, inner knowledge and gathered knowledge with mistakes included. Then - people pleasing removal is made by being honest, speaking truth, voicing out the elephant in the room, expressing your truth, not self-censoring yourself, not shutting up.
People pleasing as fawning is not 100 percent bad and negative. It contains diplomacy and interdependence, negotiation. Sometimes we are incorrect. sometimes we picked up wrong advice. People are prone to biases and logical fallacies, jumping to quick conclusions in order to make sense of the world. So - sometimes it is ok to listen to others and their words. The difference is that with inferiority complex I observe other people words as commands and orders. That I can change, that perception to observe other people as gods and superior - can only change when I realize I can trust myself, with flaws and mistakes and that I express myself. Now, this is completely different message than your quick advice "Stop people pleasing".
Problem is that people pleasers are not even aware in all the cases when they people please. This is habit that was crafted in trauma childhood, people grew up with people pleasing in order to survive mentally ill people in their midsts.
If you see a people pleaser - you have to know that this person was in close contact with mentally ill person while they were growing up. This is not something to blame people pleaser or put guilt and shame on people pleaser. This was not their choice.
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"Being assertive will get you many things in life" - and you put a guy in jail? It will get you in jail? :D
"be simple and direct" And.. there are people out there who turn their back and walk away, and they do not listen to you. Sometimes you can do all the right things and it will fail. Being assertive is not speaking out and expecting that people will fawn over you and treat you like a king. That is not realistic. Assertive means you do not self-censor yourself, especially when someone accuse you of false accusations.
"be comfortable saying no" And there are narcissists and violent psychopaths who will kill you. Sometimes you must say no if you are dealing with psychopath. What then? This is not so simple topic. I would say gather information as much as you can and see what is the best course of action. Firm and solid order how to behave is path to mental instability and mental illness in long term. You have to be flexible. World is constantly changing. It is very tempting to create crude and fixed behavioural pattern - but this does not work. It creates OCD in long term - that you must have ritual and follow this ritual in order to feel masculine, strong, better than everyone, that you do not feel fears and anxiety. You end up with intrusive thoughts and intrusive worry because you decide in your head to observe the world as scary place where you must say no to anyone and everyone just because that will prove you are masculine alpha man beast. Road to mental instability. People will just avoid you and be uncomfortable with you because you are stubborn. You can't expect that the world will fawn over you and serve you, and you in return - will do nothing. Sit on your throne and watch your servants lick your boots?
"control your tone of voice" When you start to pathologize your natural way of behaving - this is a path to neurosis. You will end up very self-conscious which leads to low self esteem. Which you may attempt to correct by over-compensating. Now over-compensation will give you additional mental crap, such as cognitive distortions and immature ego defense mechanisms such as ignoring the problem. You cannot control your nervous system. You cannot control your body. Accept yourself. Accept that you sound funny (or you believe you sound funny). Accept that your voice shakes when you need to stand up for yourself. If you put order on yourself that your body must be masculine, strong, impeccable, without mistakes, without weaknesses - or whatever you define as weak - you will end up with tons of anxiety and panic attacks. You will make yourself neurotic.
"hold your masculine frame" Why? So that I would threaten someone? So that other people would think of me as masculine? So that other people would think great about me? The reason behind the urge to appear superior is coming from weakness and inferiority complex. This is called over-compensation. I think if I put on a mask, that I will make other people scared into submission and that i will not feel injured or embarrassed. This is how narcissists think. They are deeply injured inside and they try to cover it up by pretending to be something they are not - by behaving in total opposition from their inner wound and injury. in the end they end up so much consumed in appearing strong - that they abuse people around them to feel strong. This is path to psychopathy and criminal behaviour. If you are masculine by nature - there is no need to control it or to highlight it. You are what you are. Come as you are. By picking up on your appearance how you should be - instead of feeling strong, what will happen is you will be incredibly weak and needy, you will appear total opposite than what you try to achieve.
"take negative emotions out of the equation" What exactly are negative emotions? Many people are not aware of their emotions. They label it in wrong way. This is especially truth for people who feel they have and should be better and superior, since deep inside they are weak and injured. Such people have massive problem in identifying emotions correctly. When you try to keep up image and your self worth is depended on other people observing you as masculine strong and superior being, instead of being strong and superior - you are giving other people power to control your actions. And you are not even aware of it. So other people may label you as negative, they may label something they want to exploit and take advantage of you - and they will notice you want to exterminate negative emotions - they will gaslight you into their control- This is dark psychology and Machiavellism. For example - the best example is Jordan Peterson. He exploits young men need to become masculine and strong adult figure - by mocking and making fun of rejected parts of every human being: your vulnerabilities. In that way, people like him control you. He may say - pink is sissy dress - and what you end up doing is buying the clothes that he wears since you want to appear strong and what he defines as masculine. What if he is marketing tool and his appearance is payed by corporations? You end up spending money on image that he hypnotize into believing what is the definition of masculine person.
Your weakness will be exploited by dark, manipulative people in this sick world. IF your fixation is being strong, masculine, alpha male - you can bet that you will attract any unrecognized and undefined mentally ill person out there that will exploit your need and urge to grow up in strong person.
Instead of herd mentality, rely on yourself. Accept your dark shadows. Peterson and quacks like him will try to convince you that dark shadow means being violent and rude and aggressive. Nope, dark shadow, rejected parts are: being vulnerable, being sissy, not being masculine. Be yourself. That paradoxically will make you into strong masculine man.
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I have problem with "strategies" in general due to Ebbinghaus Forgetting Curve. With time passed or triggers - our brain will switch to amygdala and we will forget all learned strategies exactly when we need it the most.
Therefore, instead of strategies, I would rather focus on accepting myself and my mistakes and negative emotions instead of giving toxic positivity a free reign. I am talking about being myself. come as you are. Being natural. With mistakes included. And flaws, too.
"Journaling" I journal since 1987. In 1989 I started to have social anxiety which soon transformed into avoidance issues. Journaling did not help neither to prevent it nor to rid of it. On the other hand, once I learned about Complex Trauma being the umbrella issue under which was social anxiety - and me blogging about it and making yt videos about learned concepts - helped me a lot. Different kind of journaling. My next experiment is writing out catastrophizing, worst case scenario that I predict will happen when I am scared about some upcoming action that I have to engage in.
"be curious" confirmation Bias will prevent us from learning. This tells us that we know only what we are able to perceive. We are trapped in cave and our thoughts are shadows on a wall that appear real to us. It is only external resource that can wake us up from this coma and hypnosis, not reading or being curious. If I ask questions, clarify - I will clarify only my fears, panic attacks and anxiety, I cannot understand concepts that I am not aware of in the first place. Also other people are also not aware they have Confirmation bias. Some of them will lie. Unintentional or not, people are not honest. So my questions are futile. Manipulators and Machiavellianist will exploit this vulnerability - so the problem is why I seek guidance from others? This is seeking approval and validation from other people - which is external reference locus of control.
"who made those rules, are they global" "should - pay attention to those and question it" "then you enter negotiation" Again, you provide no information what you do when the other person is narcissists and manipulator. Such person will provide you false data and they may not listen to you, they do not care about what you think or want, and they may turn your back on you. I would spend more time what to do in situations when your Maslow needs are depended on unreasonable people who demand to be only by their way - and for some reason you cannot leave since your Maslow needs are connected with them (job, finances, service, help).
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"Know what you want" But this is number one problem. People who have issues with assertiveness do not know what they want. This is due to toxic shame - internalized belief I am unworthy as human being. It is connected to trauma in childhood. So this is not something you can "fix" and come up with just because someone tells you that you have to know what you want. CPTSD tells us that kids that were exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 in developmental age when making mistake was normal and natural - this young person will become adult that was hypnotized and instructed like Pavlovian dog or circus animal into subservience and external reference locus of control - since you believe due to toxic shame that you are inept, your subconscious mind will export your self worth in other people - and then other people decide what you want. This happens automatically. People are not aware they are doing this. So additional damage is done by people who have good intentions like you and you tell people you got to know what you want - what happens next is that you instruct people to have more additional toxic shame, since now they are not aware what they want and they have no idea why they don't know what they want. This is what bugs me about Assertiveness - it focus on tip of the iceberg, while in the same time it totally ignores what is beneath the water. Any advice that is focused on tip of iceberg will be detrimental - since it will either confuse the person or add more of toxic shaming on top of the existing one.
Why Assertiveness resources never mentions External reference locus of control? No information about inferiority complex and trauma bonding. No information about toxic shame. And no information about Machiavellism and narcissists, dark psychology and manipulation who exploit other people by telling them what to do, by exploiting their weaknesses such as being unable to assert yourself.
People pleasing is psychological issue. The person who is pushover cannot change at the press of a button. This cannot be undone by logic and instructions. C.G. Jung — 'Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.'
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(21.1.2022)
Peterson is prone to oversimplifications and biases. He reads some resource (like Adler), make statements, then a few weeks pass and he reads another resource and then he makes totally contradicting statements. It is because he is marketing, he is ideologist, he has no practice or ultimate knowledge about psychology, he simply skips and sips through topics. Unfortunately, a lot of young people find him fascinating because he is exploiting toxic masculinity and instant stoicism - where he "explains" life through - be strong and stop doing this or that. In real life, he is giving wrong and detrimental advice and pathetic guidance, and thus keeps people who listen him in labyrinth.
"Discuss trauma while it is still happening is real bad idea" 3:24 "Dwelling makes it worse" Discussing and dwelling are not connected. IF you pinpoint trauma as the cause you can learn concepts associated with trauma. For example, I've been struggling with social anxiety since 1989 and only last year I found out about Complex Trauma. I've spent time and energy on useless classical CBT which focus on panic symptoms - and leaves you with people pleasing and fawning. CBT never addressed external reference locus of control - something you learn with CPTSD. That you put self worth back where it belongs inside you, instead of being exported onto people around us.
"maybe your strategy is not fully fleshed out" 5:50 People with trauma do not have strategy. He is suppose to be psychologist and he has not idea about trauma. When you are shocked with triggers and flashbacks, your amygdala is hijacked. This means your cortex brain (where ideas come from, goals and thinking about solutions) is not working since it has been hijacked by panic. Trauma means you are in hypervigilance all the time. So you do not have strategy at all. Since Peterson is rejecting certain psychological concepts such as Maslow needs, he do not understand this part. You cannot have strategy or any higher goals - unless your basic needs are not met, they have not been met. Instead, he insist on toxic masculinity that you go through life by banging your head on the wall and try to crumble it down. It does not work. You cannot force something unless you meet your basic needs - to feel safe. With trauma you can't feel safe. And he rejects talking about trauma because of his biases and mental illness, narcissism.
"Have conversation with your doubts" 5:58 How do you do that? You create split personality or what? What does this guy is talking about. He is spewing self help mumbo jumbo that he heard on conservative media, some quacks like him who talk nonsense. Psychology is concrete, practical - it is not vague and nonsensical ideology that he perceives it to be.
"See if you can construct a goal" 6:03 With trauma you cannot construct anything. You are stuck in survival mode. Your amygdala is hijacked. There are no goals, there is only hypervigilance and chronic worry, intrusive thoughts and intrusive worry, PureOCD thinking loops, being stuck in worry and trying to solve triggers and invisible entity that is causing you panic attacks. Since he rejects Maslow needs concept, he is talking nonsense. And people who do not know psychology think and are convinced that this guy is genuine because he sounds smart. He is quack.
"-What skills people in 20s should develop? Peterson: Stop drinking too much" 6:20 hahaha :D :D People who are interested in developing skills do not drink. Let's start with that. HE is projecting his alcoholism with psychology. HE is not psychologist - he needs psychologist.
"if you exercise you stave that off" 7:16 I wonder does he have official medical research backed up by this claim, or he pulled it out of his butt? He is not aware of Ebbinghaus Forgetting Curve because he never learned anything while studying psychology. We will forget any instruction in life in the course of 48 hours. This is why his instructions and statements are useless and he does not realize it. Humanistic psychology therefore tells us that we develop self worth as the only resource. Being fine with your mistakes and flaws and taking steps towards the progress and light. He on the other hand, since he is narcissist, he has grandeur delusions, and he sees himself as Prophet and Great dictator - so he likes to cover up his inadequacies, wounds and mental instability be pretending to give advice to others - since this makes him feel superior.
In almost all new interviews he done, he is on verge of crying. This man is not well, he is mentally unstable, he is cracking up. The worst damage people like him does is toxic influence on young people.
If you want to see and compare what real psychologist think, do and act - check out: Dan Ariely Robert Greene Adam Grant
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"And for the same reason I've refused to work, I just can't accept the idea of someone being my boss, I'm not going to settle for that!" Life is not so simple. If you have no money and silver spoon in your mouth since birth, we are all depended on others. This means, even if you have your own business, you will depend on customers -and customers are your boss in this way. They are not defined as boss by societal definition - however you are obliged to listen their criticism and instruction. The state too, if you have legal business, you must obey the law - and in this way state is your boss. I would address fear of authority as some trauma issue, rather than making general statements about how having boss is tragedy and super catastrophe.
"I won't work a 8-12 hour shift due to lack of qualifications." Yet, we saw in the movie Margin Call (2011) - that even people with super high qualifications work almost 24 hours shift, and if they lose their job it is the same as death sentence. So I would check your explanations and perceptions, it is full of biases and logical fallacies, quick conclusions that are not factual and objective.
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I see people pleasing as alarm and indication that such person had trauma and was in close vicinity of mentally ill person. Being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process it in any other way than developing immature ego defense mechanisms such as internalizing toxic shame. Therefore, I would focus on trauma, complex trauma information - telling someone get over it - won't work. This cannot be changed by logic or order or instruction - since instruction is the core problem with people pleasing. People pleasing is having external reference locus of control. Where due to toxic shame (belief I am inept and inferior) my self worth is exported to other people, and I see other people as superior, gods and their words opinions and thoughts are my command and order. I cannot put self worth back to myself if I have belief in toxic shame - that I am unworthy by default. I see destruction of toxic shame by realizing it is hallucination, and putting value back to intrinsic locus of control as natural solution for people pleasing.
People pleasing is part of being stuck, being immobile and relinquishing my responsibility in favor of other people. Whereas paradoxically when I am ok with being wrong, mistaken and not perfect is path to mental health.
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"What we will not tolerate" This starts to be a problem when you are extremely sensitive (not that being sensitive is sin) and-or when you have high IQ - then everything and anyone is wrong and barely tolerable. Then society teach you from young age that your protest and setting boundaries is pathology. As adult, if I complain about what I perceive as wrong - very soon it will turn into nagging and complaining - difficult to listen and waste of energy due to relentless resentment by everything you cannot tolerate around you.
You end up saying no to anything and everything in life - and you end up avoiding people and with agoraphobia. The world we live in is sick and a lot of people are ego-centric (panicked kids trapped in adult bodies).
So problem here is over-reaction - similar to allergy when the body over-reacts to toxins by making reaction worse than the toxin. Very soon you realize you are the problem - that you have to make balance what and when you want to express your boundaries. This triggers another huge problem: manipulators and narcissists who exploit unwritten social etiquette. Because such people will be intolerable - yet they will blame you for being over-sensitive and gaslight you into being overly critical and taking everything personal.
These are problems with people pleasing and setting boundaries. Finding the right balance what to tolerate and when you express your disagreement without coming off as hysterical.
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Yes, classical CBT is right - intrusive thoughts will go away. However... you will be left with fawning - people pleasing - being pushover - seeking approval and seeking validation.
This is because social anxiety is only a tip of iceberg. The whole chunk that we cannot see under the surface is called Complex Trauma (CPTSD). Thoughts that you are worthless is toxic shame. It is internalized belief that you are wrong by default. And you are not aware of this belief, it is natural, since it stems from dysfunctional childhood - where we have been exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria in early age when child brain was unable to process it in other way than developing immature ego defense mechanisms such as internalizing toxic shame.
Now with toxic shame what happens next is that our subconscious mind exports self worth outside of ourselves. This happens because in life you have to make quick decisions about anything in life, you are forced to make decisions you like it or not. And toxic shame prevents you from making life decisions (going to party, choosing something, caring what other people think) from within yourself. It is impossible to make decision based on your worth and values since you believe you are crap, you are by default wrong and mistaken, and making mistakes is catastrophe. So what happens is that our brain shifts self worth onto other people. Other people are now our resource for making decisions. This is called external reference locus of control. "Normal" and healthy people have intrinsic locus of control, where their self worth is placed inside them, where it naturally belongs. For some unknown and mysterious reason (CBT research made in early 1990s that was performed on people with mild shyness and not social anxiety - that concluded false results and conclusions that are really detrimental to people with social anxiety such as focusing on panic symptoms) this trauma information is totally ignored by official mental health industry and self help gurus and mentors. Toxic shame is hallucination. It is being trained like circus animal or Pavlovian dogs into subservience and fawning as natural response to other people temper tantrums and criticism which later on develops into triggers and flashbacks (amalgamation of guilt and shame) that actually control us into people pleasing. So this is the source of intrusive thoughts. Healthy part of our brain is trying to get self worth back inside us, whereas instructed trauma makes us believe other people are our gods and we must serve them. Toxic shame is shadow on Plato's cave wall that appears as reality to us. We got to realize what is toxic shame and perceive it in our lives so that we can exterminate it. Once we get rid of toxic shame we can place self worth back where it belongs - inside us. External reference locus of control us trauma bonding, Stockholm syndrome. With social anxiety we make other people our captors. Self worth that is placed on them see other people as superior while we are incapable. We seek other people to give us guidance, and we see ourselves as embarrassing, we do not allow ourselves to make mistakes and we perceive any action as shameful due to external referencing and toxic shame. With CPTSD information we can start to understand that social anxiety is inability to construct future from within ourselves and that our mind is exported in other people. We live our lives through other people - what they want, we do in preemptive strike actions that we think other people would approve. This is not working, this is dysfunctional because other people are other people - they are not one person. There is no authority that can speak what is correct in life. Socrates told us that there is not ultimate truth at all. So toxic shame makes us believe that other people hold ultimate truth about life. That is lie. That is not true, the universe itself is made to be dualistic - so there are the opposite truth to any truth. Google Paradox of knowledge. The truth is paradox itself. We are not gods, no one can have answers to anything in life- human brain is limited. Also, human brain is prone to biases and logical fallacies, jumping to conclusions - because it is impossible to reach the ultimate truth. Toxic shame makes us believe that other people can do that. That we can believe in others telling us what we must do, and in this way toxic shame makes us think that we will be relinquished of any responsibility in life. That somehow people will not criticize us, and thus we will avoid original trauma - being abused in childhood that we are trained and hypnotized into avoiding fears from childhood.
So CBT focus only on panic symptoms is the repetition of trauma. Trauma means lack of love, lack of belief in self worth. And if you focus on panic symptoms - the brain will gladly create more of fears. Brain is build to protect us from danger. PureOCD tells us that rituals we do to get relief from anxiety - is anxiety itself. Routines will become OCD. Also, when you focus on panic and fears - this will guide you into chronic worry - Polyvagal theory tells us that hypervigilance and being hyperalert is part of trauma. We will continually be in state of trauma and shock.
On the other hand CBT now with new knowledge and information is talking about what I said here: "Third wave CBT" "Rather than focusing on reducing symptoms—though this is a benefit—they help the client step away from unhelpful thoughts." "Two therapies that come under the third wave CBT umbrella are ACT (acceptance and commitment therapy) and DBT (dialectical behavior therapy)."
I see Humanistic psychology as answer to intrusive thoughts and social anxiety: " Humanistic therapies" "This group of therapies encourages an individual to resolve their problems and issues and achieve greater fulfillment by recognizing, understanding, and using their own capacity to develop. Humanists believe that not only is a person capable of making changes and achieving personal growth but it is their responsibility to do so. This idea places the individual fully in control of their choices and goals."
This means, it is ok if I have intrusive thoughts and panic. This is sign I was exposed to untreated mentally ill person. Long term exposure to narcissistic abuse causes brain damage. (google it). Our body is conditioned to pump out hormones and chemicals whenever I do anything correct - because hysterical person and toxic environment made us believe and program us into subservience and shutting up and self-censorship very early on in our lives. So I will feel guilty when I do not care what other people think. I will not be able to shake off someone's criticism, it will feel painful and hurtful - due to brain injury caused by narcissistic trauma and our own body that is conditioned like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals to pump adrenaline for example when I stand up for myself. It affects my mood - that I feel guilty and ashamed for being myself and defending my self worth.
Another critical aspect that classical CBT ignores is HSP, Elaine Aron said: Being sensitive to the discomfort, disapproval, or anger of others probably made you quick to follow every rule as perfectly as possible, afraid to make a mistake. Being so good all the time, however, meant ignoring many of your normal human feelings-irritation, frustration, selfishness, rage. Since you were so eager to please, others could ignore your needs when in fact yours were often greater than theirs. Elaine Aron "The Highly Sensitive Person"
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I think word "overarousal" may be misleading to people and to ourselves as we explain it to us. It might imply the person as if one is hysterical and goes to temper tantrums. In reality extroverted people are more prone to being hysterical, aggressive, loud, obnoxious - and paradoxically such people will mock sensitive people as snowflakes. On the other side, overarousal in sensitive people is like inner explosion, it is panic attack that is not shown externally. It is urge to run and avoid and heavy feeling of shame, guilt and embarrassment. I also find very disappointing that there are practically no information about toxic shame - yet it is so often thrown at sensitive people.
I've read Elaine's HSP book in 1996 - and her basic message to observe these sensations and phenomena as extra stimuli and neutral did not got to me. I understood it partially. Toxic shame prevented me to accept this message and toxic environment - hysteria and temper tantrums of others and people trying to normalize abuse through labeling me as snowflake. I started to read her book for the past month and I can see that only now I understand what she was trying to say. It comes down to totally accepting of myself - with flaws, mistakes included - no matter what other people label me and describe me - that I am ok with having sensations that I will label as anxiety, and panic symptoms and weakness.
1:12:03 PTSD- it is complex trauma, CPTSD. It is not only one even. Acute trauma reaction. Social anxiety resources base their official medical instructions based on faulty CBT research from early 1990s where they gathered people with mild shyness and label them as socially anxious - and thus they totally ignored the trauma part - where people were traumatized into social anxiety. I would say person who has CPTSD - it is like if we look from timeline - we could say that HSP person is like blooming flower and it is only a matter of time when trauma accumulates enough to reach the boiling point in the form of CPTSD. As if we compare people who did not develop CPTSD and still were exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process it other than developing immature ego defense mechanisms and internalizing toxic shame - that the reason why you overreact is coming from extra stimuli that HSP are built that way. From this point I would connect HSP and CPTSD - it goes hand in hand - whereas toxic environment will cause C-PTSD in people with HSP traits.
It is like a test - you can either go to the path of having empathy and being open and friendly and developing trauma OR you can respond by inventing persona, putting on a mask and developing narcissistic disorder - which will pass the trauma on to the next generation.
(22.1.2022)
I am talking about hypnosis and subconsciousness. I discovered that people are dualistic in nature: we are governed by logic but also automatically by subconsciousness. So our brain will interpret words in two different way, and we are not aware of it.
On logic level we say - that we have to be strong and that there is enemy outside. But inside our brain interprets this: we are weak and inept to deal with life so I must engage in chronic worry and intrusive thoughts to keep alive and observe life as struggle. CBT tells us that words we speak to ourselves are crucial, how we explain and interpret reality to ourselves - with good intentions in mind, we can make ourselves afraid, neurotic and nervous.
C.G. Jung — 'Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.'
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"Peterson definitely does care" Narcissists also care (in their own twisted way), they have hidden agenda behind their love-bomb phase and charm - and in their imaginary world they are helping others whereas they are seen by themselves as grandeur saviours. This is why codependency is dualistic - at one angle we have people pleasers who are needy and clingy and want to fix others, and at the other hand we have narcissists who are grabbing and taking - they both want to fix the other one, however the narcissists wants to do this because of his own image and prestige and to cover up internal toxic shame. That is what Peterson is doing.
You cannot give instructions to people about life, how to manage it. This is codependency from narcissistic point of view. Piaget tells us that the best way children learn is that you give them resources so that they can discover it on their own. IF you tell the kids how to do things, you take away forever their ability to construct life out of their own mind. Peterson is trying the fascist way - to place by force only one way of living onto everyone. The only one way that he approved is the best way to live. That is narcissism.
His yesterday's tweet is telling this: HE said: "It is my firm belief that the best way to fix the world—a handyman's dream, if ever there was one—is to fix yourself"
And I replied to him: "Perhaps the only "fixing" is to realize you have nothing to fix. That you had it all along inside you. You just had to figure it out for yourself. And seeking external validation is Wizard of Oz - hallucination And once you are ok with yourself, you can fix the world by being you"
So, in his mind he has injury, deep wound that he tries to fix. That is sign he has trauma. All narcissists have this deep inner wound that they mask with pretending to be superior being, and they do everything to be superior, without mistakes and perfectionists - and they impose this impossible standards onto others, many times with violence and aggression. (which makes them dangerous). He is mentally ill person.
--- @Jagunath Sva Thanks! "my choice of words do come out as pathologising social anxiety" Please don't take my words as if I am pathologizing you :D
This is very common and often labeling system, that society is conditioning us into. Society in general wants "strong" people since it benefits corporations and authority that is on narcissistic spectrum. I am talking about toxic masculinity where definitions of being "strong" are unrealistic and self degrading.
I read about this concept in 1997 Elaine's book "HSP" - and now it is 2022 - I finally understand what she meant about accepting ourselves. We as society are conditioned into self hate that is masked as "help" into becoming "resilient" through self-hate and self-blame - which leads only to neurosis. This is very hard concept to understand because it is so pervasive and intertwined into every pore of modern society. I find this self hate and quick label of our negative emotions as the root cause of mental disorders. We are trying to be well by ignoring our rejected parts that we perceive as weak and sissy - but these parts serve its purpose, and at closer look these parts are not weak nor sissy at all (having fear reactions, or reactions what we may label as fear and panic - but it is in fact this strange and weird reaction is being intelligent and we actually having stimuli process of events and people on much deeper and more intelligent manner than most common folks). Elaine Aron described it in her book "HSP" - but as I said - I could not receive the message (due to internalized toxic shame).
She said in her book: "Sometimes in your past you entered a social situation (usually overstimulating to begin with) and felt that you failed. Others said you did something wrong or did not seem to like you, or you failed to meet your own standards in the situation. Maybe you were already overaroused, having used your excellent imagination to envision all that might go wrong. Overarousal is not always due to fear. Thinking it is fear can make you feel shy when you are not. Calling yourself shy is negative. Calling yourself shy is self-fulfilling. Your heart may be pounding for any number of reasons having nothing to do with the people you are with. So go ahead, ignore the other causes (if you can), and have a good time. Never underestimate the power of simply acknowledging to yourself that you are overaroused."
I find it amazing that you understand it, and yes it is important to spread this concept to others. It is road to mental health and well being.
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I see Wu wei as when we reject instructions from modern self help gurus who are talking about boundaries, that you should protect yourself. Whereas from Wu wei point of view, instead of wasting time on worry and being hyperalert and hypervigilance (watching out boundaries) - it is more like either you leave toxic environment or you speak truth and be authentic, blunt - like Zoroastrians speak the truth, voice out the elephant in the room. Not to be rude or to attack or to use Ad Hominems or ethical rudeness - it is simply stating objective facts and being transparent. Narcissists and manipulators hate truth, objectivity and transparency - so it is the best repellent against them - instead of labeling others as toxic and keeping the score. IF someone is toxic - you cut contact, there is no need for boundaries. If you have boundaries - you will be very hyperactive - and turn into hysterical person. IF you always state truth - you are naturally yourself, there is no wars or explosions or drama.
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(23.1.2022)
I find this message crucial. It is for people who have intrusive worry from past accidents and incidents where people done us wrong - and we are no longer in contact with those people, but we can't shake it off. Because we feel anger and helplessness and unfairness. It sounds weak and unreasonable to release this by deep forgiveness - but it is the only way. With deep forgiveness we will actually release the hurt - instead of trying to find solution. It is not fawning and surrendering, paradoxically deep forgiveness is very cold and severe punishment - because once you forgive the trespassers, they will no longer have residence in your head - you will forget about them. That is the best punishment for wrongdoers, when you no longer remember their names or what happened - it is as if they are erased from existence, as if they never lived at all. Only deep forgiveness can give us this blessing of being free from past trauma.
It is different approach when dealing with being offended in the present time. I see transparency and being objective and voicing out the elephant in the room as the best weapon, without drama and explosions, simply stating facts. Narcissists and Machiavellians hate truth and objectivity and transparency, since lies and hiding are their tools. Because when you speak out what they did wrong, one day they will be also part of deep forgiveness and you will forget all about them, but your spoken truth will be stuck inside their mind - something they will face anyway in purgatory and for eternity.
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(24.1.2022)
"You may have fear of being judged, rejected, or embarrassing yourself" Criticism, it is inability to experience someone's negative comment in form of criticism. This is due to Complex Trauma, being exposed to narcissistic abuse in childhood. It is toxic shame that keeps social anxiety alive (firm belief I am inept and wrong by default).
"Their minds are often occupied with negative thoughts about being inadequate, useless, unlikable, unattractive or uncool." That is only a part of it. If we understand Complex Trauma, then we understand what is happening in the brain - amygdala hijacking and learned trauma response in form of fawning. Without information about emotional hijacking and fawning, individual with social anxiety will attribute these to a caprice, quirk or perk - and do nothing about it and it will feel as if you are in prison. Complex Trauma information is thus valuable to understand what is going on inside. This uncomfortable feelings are not only because of negative thoughts. Trauma means being exposed to programming, hypnosis into subservience and inability to confront authority (or any person that is vulgar, loud, obnoxious, unkind or violent). If we focus only and exclusively on our "negative thoughts" as the only problem here - this will lead to people pleasing and fawning because you are not dealing with the root issue: being exposed to unrecognized mentally ill person in your vicinity - someone who nags and pinpoints mistakes all the time 24/7 and throw hysteria.
"They think others are likely to judge them negatively, reject them or disapprove ot disagree with anything they may have to say" This is not so simple. We are talking here about trauma bonding. This means that we perceive other people (in authority or anyone who is loud mouthed) as dangerous and better than us. This is due to toxic shame, and toxic shame is criminally ignored by official social anxiety resources. When we have toxic shame - our brain will export our self worth in other people - and we will observe and perceive other people (loud, violent and unkind, aggressive ones) as gods. We will trust their every word is command and we have to obey. This is called external referencing locus of control - because our self worth is exported outside of ourselves into other people. This is also backed up by another trauma tools: hormones and chemicals that are trained like circus animals or Pavlovian dogs to be released whether we stand up for ourselves (stress hormones will be released), when we do something courageous and bold - again hormones will influence our mood that we feel guilt and shame. Also if we fawn, hormones of pleasure will be released and it will affect our mood - that we feel safe. Again, without trauma information (CPTSD) I would never found out with official social anxiety resources (CBT) why and what is the reason why I cannot shake off someone's criticism. It just lingers in me - because of trauma, trauma means being stuck. Trauma is trapped inside our body, and CBT is ignoring this fact, making social anxiety worse. Another reason why we think people judge us - is because of brain damage. Long term exposure to narcissistic abuse causes brain damage. We have brain injury inside our brain, carved and ingrained inside our body. This means, no matter what therapy, the brain will default to intrusive worry - brain will do this, it is outside of our control. The brain will make us feel we must solve any problem that obnoxious person present - brain will default to feelings of guilt and shame due to this injury. And we wait for our brain to feel good enough so that we feel good and competent and confident - but this will not happen since our body is trained like animal to perform circus tricks - fawning and people pleasing and shutting up, self-censoring ourselves and to believe other people hold the ultimate truth about how life should be managed.
"They develop behaviours to try protect themselves, from what they fear will happen in social situations. Known as safety behaviours" It is called Immature ego defense mechanisms (Freud discovered this). One of mechanism is introjection - that we soak up inside other people - their beliefs, their opinions as valid, correct and nothing to be questioned about. This is done automatically, this is due to trauma, hypnosis, it is habit from childhood - and it must be broken. This means anytime we are dealing with mobbing at work - we will never ever consider to document it. The first reaction will be panic - fawn response. Toxic shame will make us feel we are wrong and this is the proof. We will never ever consider that the other person who is abusive is mentally ill and we do not have to admire them just because they curse, lie or scream at us.
"Safety behaviour - avoiding eye contact and avoid social situations" This is grey area. In Elaine Aron's book "HSP" it is said that actually how we act in life - is because we have different way of thinking, than most of the people. We process stimuli more deeply - and other people may label this as introversion - and other people thus pathologize our natural, normal, completely human behaviour. This is very dangerous - because it adds up to anxiety, it makes neurosis where there should be none if we do not judge and pathologize our personality. Elaine Aron said in her book: "Sooner or later everyone encounters stressful life experiences, but HSPs react more to such stimulation. If you see this reaction as part of some basic flaw, you intensify the stress already present in any life crisis. This deeper processing of subtle details causes you to consider the past or future more. You "just know" how things got to be the way they are or how they are going to turn out. It can be wrong, but your intuition is right often enough that HSPs tend to be visionaries, more conscientious, cautious and wise people. It is important not to confuse arousal with fear. And often we think that our arousal is due to fear. We do not realize that our heart may be pounding from the sheer effort of processing extra stimulation. I really suggest trying to view it as neutral. HSPs must spend far more time trying to invent solutions to human problems just because they are more sensitive to hunger, cold, insecurity, exhaustion, and illness. Since most non-HSPs do not seem to enjoy thinking about such things, they assume we must be unhappy doing all that pondering. Spend enough time putting yourself out there in the world - your sensitivity is not something to be feared. Carl Jung believed that when highly sensitive patients has experienced a trauma, they had been unusually affected and so developed a neurosis. Preferring toughness, the culture sees our trait as something difficult to live with, something to be cured. HSPs differ mainly in their sensitive processing of subtle stimuli. This is your most basic quality."
"These safety behaviour reinforce the negative thoughts and prevent these maladaptive beliefs from ever being challenged" Nope, I would not approach this in such way. Social anxiety in adults is intertwined with personality. There is shadow area what is one's persona and what is pathology. I see rather better way - due to toxic shame internalized - that we focus more on self worth being brought back where it belongs - inside us. This means: accepting that it is ok if we do not look into people's eyes. That we note - this is not accepted social norm, however I have been through trauma, I have been abused by mentally ill people - so it is normal reaction to abnormal people, abnormal situations and abnormal events. What I can do is explore other people - and check out if they are ok and healthy enough to look them in their eyes. I find this Humanistic Psychology approach much more productive than CBT. Classical CBT leads to people pleasing and fawning and it reinforced trauma and toxic shame. I say classical, because CBT developed method to combat social anxiety in early 1990s with faulty experiments: they made survey with people with mild shyness, not people with social anxiety. None person with social anxiety would agree to be examined from social side. Also, people with social anxiety due to trauma have no idea what type of emotions they have, due to toxic shame, they seek approval from other people - which means information that they give to doctors is skewed to begin with. This results and conclusions will also be distorted. I am talking about Piaget's imaginary audience that kids experience in their developmental stages. Since social anxiety is developed in later developmental stages, socially anxious people have not grown in and overcame these later stages - like imagining audience watching you. This part is, due to trauma, distorted in people with social anxiety. Social anxiety means you have unconscious audience or one person overlooking you - and you act and obey and think in the way to please this imaginary person inside your head. That is social anxiety. Not the negative thoughts. Negative thoughts are tip of the iceberg. CBT never looked what is beneath the ice. Also, modern CBT realized this mistake they have done. Quote: "Third wave CBT" "Rather than focusing on reducing symptoms—though this is a benefit—they help the client step away from unhelpful thoughts." "Two therapies that come under the third wave CBT umbrella are ACT (acceptance and commitment therapy) and DBT (dialectical behavior therapy)."
CBT upgraded itself.
"They assume that others will perceive them in the way that they perceive themselves" 3:49 This is incorrect. Toxic shame prevents any kind of perceiving yourself. Due to toxic shame you are disgusted by yourself. Toxic shame is trauma being stuck in our body. Our brain thinks we are unworthy and inept - and uses social anxiety as excuse to prove this is true. This means, our self worth is located outside of ourselves. It is in other people, this phenomena is called trauma bonding. Stockholm Syndrome - since as kids we were unable to process adult hysteria as adults, we were forced into belief that other people are normal and resource for life, I cannot stress enough this belief is the motor that keeps social anxiety ongoing. Thus, people with social anxiety are unable to perceive or compare themselves at the same level as other people. Being on par is healthy - people with social anxiety do not see themselves on par with other people, especially to loud, violent and unkind people (those that resemble to their original trauma). Since you are not on par - you do not put other people in question - it is not about how others perceive you - because from socially anxious brain - other people are gods. It is the other way around - other people tell you how you should be. It is belief that other people perception is the order. Imagined or real. Social anxiety is like being prisoner in Stanford Prison Experiment. Subjected to abuse, you see other people as prison guards.
"it may not be possible to eliminate social anxiety" This is complex. If we look at brain injury (caused by being exposed to early age psychological abuse and trauma) - then psychology tells us that instead of listening to our brain (that defaults to being stuck, immobile and passive, in thinking loops, trying to solve the unsolvable, pureOCD) - that we put self worth back inside us - meaning we trust our super-ego instead of our brain. We trust our decisions, advice from doctors that tell that we have life to live instead of worrying and wallowing in depression. I can shift my focus onto tasks to be done. AKA Behavioral Activation Therapy. This means, that I accept due to trauma I have injury inside my brain that will default to worry and inactivity, so I have to step out of the car and give it a push, so it can drive again. As being said anxiety is like driving with the handbrake on. Anxiety lies to us. Anxiety has credibility of car salesman. So instead, we have to trust our gut and intuition - not our brain. Our brain is faulty. This is where it gets complex. Due to toxic shame internalized - if we decide that there is something horrible wrong with us, we will stay stuck with toxic shame - which means trauma bonding and observing other people as prison guards from Stanford Prison Experiment. BTW Zimbardo later focused on social anxiety in his studies and in late 1970s he stated that shyness is becoming epidemic. He just did not have word to label it as social anxiety back then. So I would focus on recognizing and destroying toxic shame. Toxic shame is hallucination. It is entity that our traumatized brain decided is real thing and we believed our injured brain. This means having intrinsic locus of control, where self worth is inside me. This means, as Elaine Aron said in her book "HSP" that we accept ourselves fully. With mistakes, with flaws - and then build on that onward.
"CBT challenges beliefs and negative thoughts about yourself and the world" In my case classical CBT did not help me. It did help me to calm the panic attacks, since it encouraged me to enter into social situations - however as decades passed, I developed serious case of people pleasing, being pushover and fawning. This is because CBT focus on tip of iceberg, as said in video, only on logical part of brain - which is fine, but it is only 5% of what social anxiety is. Social anxiety is labyrinth. It is slick, like toxic shame, it is hard to recognize correctly and it is easy to mislabel emotions and thoughts in wrong way. Third way of CBT is better but it is still incomplete. I see Humanistic Psychology as better choice:
"Humanistic therapies This group of therapies encourages an individual to resolve their problems and issues and achieve greater fulfillment by recognizing, understanding, and using their own capacity to develop. Humanists believe that not only is a person capable of making changes and achieving personal growth but it is their responsibility to do so. This idea places the individual fully in control of their choices and goals. DK How Psychology Works_ The Facts Visually Explained"
CBT focus on symptoms - whereas Social anxiety is tango between narcissists (manipulators, exploiters) - so it would be very beneficial for socially anxious people to learn narcissism, how they abuse dark psychology to exploit easy victims. With narcissism information, we learn that it is useless to argue with them since they invent their own fantasy world, and that they also were traumatized in childhood - however they have chosen to deal with life by attacking and attacking others and being predator. Sensitive, kind, normal and healthy people will attract toxic people like moth to a flame, because they are easy target. And CBT is making you easy target: to be cool and collected and without expression of hysteria, not to rock the boat - these normal human qualities attracts manipulators. They parasite on kind people, they are parasited. Not gods as our social anxiety trauma explains it to us.
Social anxiety started to be problem from 1970s because before 1969 there were social norms and orders how to behave in social situations. Now there are no solid rules. Today it is cool and normal to be vulgar and angry and unkind. It is perceived as mark of strength and ability to cope with life. This is where social anxiety steps in. Social anxiety is being traumatized into belief that I must behave in certain way in order to satisfy the abuser. From socially anxious perspective I do not realize that there is no correct way to behave. This is why psychiatrist and psychology will never tell you how to act - and this is exactly what socially anxious people seek - they want to know how to act and manage and lead life. Who would be superior being to tell us what is correct way to talk and dress and behave and who sets up the norm for successful life? That I must have tons of money, countless cars and big villa? Who is the person who says that normal and legal way to behave in social situations is - to be happy and smiling all the time? Or that it is normal to be angry and to shout at others? Social anxiety is inability to perceive that we are the ones who set up these rules. We do not need other people to approve our thoughts, actions, words. ---
Common myth is that social anxiety means lack of communication skills. This belief is actually social anxiety itself.
"How to read people" is manipulation. People dislike this. If you treat people like laboratory hamster, this is not good basis for cooperation, friendship and interaction.
"what the person state of mind" But this is social anxiety - being preoccupied with other people and what they think and what they might criticize us about. this is due to CompleX trauma experience and toxic shame. Belief that we are innately wrong by default. Thus we must observe other people as gods and believe everything they say is correct and our personal order how we should be in order to please them.
"focus on people around you" This is another myth, spread by Jordan Peterson. people with social anxiety are already zoomed onto other people. They expect abuse from others (due to Complex trauma) - and they per-emptively do things to please other people. Your advice to focus on other people will not help anxiety go away - it will make it worse. Hypervigilance, intrusive worry, being preoccupied about what other people want need and we need to fix them and their wishes are our commands.
"once your thoughts become focused on other people, you realize nobody is thinking about you" Wrong. This is classical CBT done faulty research in early 1990s. They grouped people with mild shyness and they based their social anxiety experiment on people who actually do not have social anxiety. So their conclusions that socially anxious people should look others in the eye in order to beat anxiety is tip for mild shyness, not social anxiety. This is due to trauma and toxic shame. Toxic shame is inner belief that I am inept, so in order to live and manage life, I export my self worth into other people and I believe that other people hold the truth and correct ways how to manage and deal with life. This is hallucination. Socrates discovered 2000 years ago that there is no such thing as ultimate truth. Truth is paradox. Therefore, other people can be wrong. And they probably are. People are prone to cognitive biases and logical fallacies due to lack of information. Toxic shame tells us that we are wrong by default. Toxic shame is hallucination. We need to bring self worth back to ourselves - this means not to be focused on other people. They are allowed to do think act whatever manner they want, this it not proof of my validity. Trauma bonding is seeking approval from other people. So, advice to be focused on other people is trauma bonding advice. I can accept my mistakes, being embarrassed, knowing that whatever I do as safety protocol. that I will make fool of myself. So I can voice out the elephant in the room and I can be me, natural as I am, with mistakes and flaws included. I cannot do that if I focus on other people and seek their approval what I should say speak think or act.
"Most people are in their own head thinking about themselves" Most people are normal. However there is something I call external factor. These are manipulators, narcissists, exploiters, users, abusers, parasites, emotional vampires, borderliners - and they think to exploit others with hidden agenda in their mind. People with social anxiety can sniff these bullies very easily. However this works other way round. People with social anxiety will attract toxic people like moth to a flame - because we are open, friendly, good and nice people - and as such with inability to confront and yell and be hysterical - we will attract people who seek to exploit us. So they will think about exploiting us in order to please themselves. If something seems wrong, it probably is. People with social anxiety due to trauma will miss red flags and often enter into toxic relationships where they will be exploited. Toxic people are not always hysterical, angry and dangerous - in honeymoon phase or when you meet them first, they are extremely nice, kind, open and friendly.
"You realize nobody is watching you or what you do" People have their own issues. Narcissists also went through trauma - however they decided to deal with trauma to become false persona and exploit others. This means - people will watch others in order to criticize them or mock them so in order that nobody attacks or criticize them. I would say that socially anxious people should pay attention to toxic environment and as I said, we will attract toxic people in our lives like moth to a flame.
"Your social anxiety can literally disappear" 1) it is trauma. this means there is brain injury due to long term narcissistic abuse. This is brain injury. This cannot be erased over night. 2) social anxiety is not always bad. Without trauma part - it is tool to make friends and make friendships and partnerships, it is a way to interact with others and be interdependent - which is the highest value of human interaction - people pay tons of money to learn about it - with social anxiety we already have this skill inside us 3) being on par with others is equal to low social anxiety- simple hack - that is something that can be done overnight. 4) Elaine Aron tells us in her book HSP that what we label as social anxiety (and what especially society labels) is actually simply having different brain than the most people. Most people are dumb. With sensitivity we have ability to observe and view people from multiple points of view and angles. Trauma makes us stuck with overgeneralization and immobility - and this should be taken care of, not the whole personality. She says, in her own words: "Sometimes in your past you entered a social situation (usually overstimulating to begin with) and felt that you failed. Others said you did something wrong or did not seem to like you, or you failed to meet your own standards in the situation. Maybe you were already overaroused, having used your excellent imagination to envision all that might go wrong. Overarousal is not always due to fear. Thinking it is fear can make you feel shy when you are not. Calling yourself shy is negative. Calling yourself shy is self-fulfilling. Your heart may be pounding for any number of reasons having nothing to do with the people you are with. So go ahead, ignore the other causes (if you can), and have a good time." "Arousal does not have to be anxiety, so do not accept the label "anxiety prone". Arousal can just be overstimulation. The Highly Sensitive Person, Elaine N. Aron"
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I like filter advice, "You think that things you would say are such crap that you communicate that with ever fiber of your being" This is due to toxic shame.
"Say like you mean it" Toxic shame makes you export your self-worth in other people (external reference locus of control). This means - expectation what other people you think would like you to do say think and have opinion about controls your words. Often it is shutting up and self-censorship. So if you force other people over this mechanism of toxic shame, trauma bonding and external validation locus of control - is wrong. IT will not work. It is not genuine. If you base your life on external locus of control - it will not come out correct. It will turn into people pleasing and fawning and being pushover. Why would I talk with taxi driver anyway? Why would other, random people be interested in me anyways? Do I see other people as a narcissistic tool of mine to exploit them in order to talk with them? I do not like where this is going. Toxic shame is indication that person was exposed to narcissistic abuse. Instead of opening my arms to all people around me (and trauma will make us attract toxic people like moth to a flame) - I would rather focus on learning about narcissism and how narcissists manipulate, how they exploit others through dark psychology - and stick with my shyness and anxiety as red flags intuition that I should avoid certain people that appear weird enough to trigger my panic symptoms.
"Do not let someone cut you off until you state period" Again, advice that is ignoring narcissistic abuse that caused shyness and social anxiety issues. Being exposed to trauma means that your hormones and chemicals will be activated in situations where I should stand up for myself, when I should speak and voice out my opinion. So the body is working against ourselves. Can we just stop and acknowledge this? The body is pumping chemicals inside our body - the body is drugging us into subservience and submission. And if you do stand up for yourself and voice your opinion - body will pump stress chemicals which will affect our mood - feeling guilty and ashamed. So - you cannot correct this trained mechanism (similar to circus animals and Pavlovian dogs) with sentence "Do not" "stop that". This is not something you can change at the press of button. This is why there is psychology, this is why famous psychologist and philosophers spent their entire life to get to this knowledge today - that you cannot change people with an order.
"Take up conversational space in a way that is assertive" Nope. Assertive does not mean that I can control other people. Belief that I can control other people is cognitive distortion. This guy has narcissistic traits. Who says that whatever I am speaking is always and in 100% of times correct, amusing and relevant? Perhaps I am in fact wrong about something? Perhaps I am not aware of what is going on - and what real issue is - and perhaps I am making mistake with what I am speaking about. Also - if there is someone who is taking over my words all the time - this person is toxic. Why would I spend time and energy being around such person in the first place? This guy started great with filter, but him ignoring trauma and toxic shame tells me he is like Jordan Peterson, ideologist without real deep knowledge.
"They did not cut me off" Again, this is related to toxic shame. With toxic shame - I do not have self worth inside me. When I place self worth inside me where it belongs, these cutting off will be dealt naturally, without "experts" telling me instructions how to talk and fight for my space of babbling.
"instructions" DO not work in real life. Ebbinghaus Forgetting Curve will destroy it, trauma too - amnesia due to amygdala hijacking will erase all instructions. This is selling hot water to people who need concrete and solid advice.
"Just be yourself does not lead to growth" "You have to deal with tension" This guy is mixing personality with making life decisions. Life will force us into situations we are not ready. This is not something that we will prevent by being ourselves. Being ourselves is connected to healing from toxic shame - so he is saying, stay with toxic shame and pay us money to learn instructions that you will forget anyway with time.
I see being yourself as the only way out of shyness and social anxiety. All other is exploiting socially anxious people and parasiting over their fears and panic attacks. If I am awkward - it is ok. If I do not know something - it is ok. Need and urge to be perfect is part of anxiety and trauma, it leads to chronic worry and hypervigilance - Polyvagal Theory.
Once we accept being embarrassed and being a fool - then we can build upon that solid basis - with time and interactions with people. I see quacks and parasites people who try to teach you instructions.
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People pleasing is after-effect of being exposed to trauma and narcissistic psychological abuse. Toxic shame prevents you know what you want - since your core belief is programmed to reject oneself. People pleasing thus cannot be "healed" by logic. Causes are much deeper - and it is related to healing trauma and learning about Complex Trauma and Narcissistic people - to learn how narcissists think and manipulate others.
Due to toxic shame, people pleaser will not accept being worthy, since it is encoded in your core being that you are inept, for being exposed to unrecognized mentally ill person in childhood. Can we just stop and think - what actually happen to a grown person who is people pleaser? There has to be huge trauma behind it. This cannot be stopped at the press of the button or through reasoning.
Sensitive people will attract narcissists like moth to a flame. It is codependent dynamics - both based on trauma.
I would focus on toxic shame removal -- by realizing it is hallucination, and learning about trauma bonding and CPTSD information, I see as a way out of fawning and being pushover as reaction to triggers, flashbacks and people and situations similar to the original trauma.
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Problem with shutty shutty is when you start to self-censor yourself and shut up and believe in toxic shame, that you must be silent and take abuse. It is different to shut up and do as said, or shut them down and walk away. I would highlight this difference, Lisa - or people who fawn will misunderstand this shutty shutty. It is not about fawning and people pleasing them. Disengage is great description: "separate or release (someone or something) from something to which they are attached or connected."
When you are invalidated - yeah people will take it personally. this gives birth to toxic shame- Toxic shame is root of trauma injury - it gives birth to social anxiety and inability to make your decisions, since the brain will export self worth onto other people - external reference locus of control. Yeah I like this: "Love tank – as you hold on to your energy, you are validating yourself. " Self worth is anti-dote to toxic shame - that I accept my flaws and mistakes and that I make my own decisions. Thank you Lisa! We need clarity, your channel is very rare - it gives clarity. As oppose to other channels that do not pinpoint the cause of trauma - narcissistic abuse. Clarity is the only way to learn to deal with old trauma and triggers from the present time.
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(25.1.2022)
No one is attacking you. This is about awareness that nobody talks about. 99% people pleasing videos are exactly like yours. We have to change it because and Crusading battle against People pleasing is part of "Psychological Invalidation".
Whoever is having people pleasing issues, please know this is not your choice, this is not something you can change by force or by invalidation in form of "stop it and don't people please". People pleasing is normal reaction to abnormal situation, abnormal people and abnormal events.
khironclinics: "Invalidation can cause significant damage or upset to a person’s psychological health and well-being. When a person feels invalidated, it creates the belief that their subjective emotional experiences are unreasonable, unacceptable, or insignificant."
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" the people who clicked on this are already self aware enough and want to change" Yeah, people like me. I have been clicking you tube videos on regular basis for 5 years now, every week and I was seeking solution to people pleasing. All the videos are like yours - instructing to say no and that people pleasing is negative and we should get rid of it.
People pleasing is hypnosis. People are running on a program from trauma. This means, they are not self aware enough. They want to people please you so that you approve of them by not pleasing others. I am talking about the change of perspective here.
Humanistic approach tells us that we accept ourselves as we are, without any change. Indication that there is something wrong inside me aka people pleasing - means I will endorse toxic shaming and I will deepen being pushover. People pleasing has good sides - making friendships and coming to agreement.
If we destroy people pleasing - people will become angry, frustrated and shouting and yelling at others as a way of communication with other people. That is core problem with people pleasing - being unable to deal with conflict - because of trauma and toxic shame - that prevents self worth being basis for communication and interaction with people.
Self worth being the only entity here that will keep people pleasing in balance. Our emotions and feelings are valid. Sometimes we encounter mentally ill people who appear strong or who are our boss or parents - where we cannot leave them due to finances or shelter - the only way to survive is to people please them. OR to physically attack them or verbally attack them. These kind of situations can be only managed with self worth, that your intuition tells you what to do. If we pathologize people pleasing and remove it - we are removing parts of us that are capable to making contact with other people. We will develop mental allergies and we will over-react, we will not be able to discern someone's honest words with criticism - just as you reacted to my words.
All mental disorders are due to disbelief in our own mental capabilities to deal with life and people. If we want to "fix" and "correct" our ways of living, our emotions - with flaws and mistakes included - this will lead to psychological invalidation.
Since people pleasing is connected to trauma - any attempt to correct is toxic positivity. It is detrimental - person will feel inept to any advice given. It will not solve anything - since person now has order to change - but change to what? Being loud, obnoxious, telling people no, observing any communication with others as if others are taking advantage of us - so we will develop chronic worry, hypervigilance.
Again, this is not personal attack on you. This is subject that no one talks about. Society is build that way and it is wrong. Society is based on toxic masculinity - that I have to be strong super person without mistakes, flaws and being vulnerable. Truth is - we cannot control other people. There will be exploiters and parasites out there that will take advantage of us. This is out of our control. What we can do is to learn red flags and remove toxic people out of our life. If we can't do it immediately (due to shelter or finances) - we can plan it. If we focus on our flaws such as being pushover - we will never loop up and see that other people may be wrong - and that we are allowed to doubt them. We will be hyper-focused on being strong and telling people no automatically - guess what will happen. We will develop avoidance, isolation, without making any friendships and connections. With self worth - we will be able to evaluate when someone is taking advantage of us.
That is why I highlight self worth here. This is very complex and important topic, I hope you will contemplate it about more, from my perspective that I try to explain here.
Checkout reddit article thread "Biosocial Theory, Emotional Validation vs. Emotional Invalidation, and other DBT Resources" They are talking about this self acceptance, where self worth is basis for any future attempt to change yourself.
IF you have no self worth - people will manipulate you, since you do not have inner compass what is correct and wrong, inside you. You will be unable to discern bad guys and bad actions. As I said, people pleasing has positive side (fawning). The same thing as anger. Being hysterical is wrong, so we are being taught that we should smile and be happy all the time, since throwing temper tantrums may hurt someone's feelings. However, if we remove anger altogether - we will not be able to say no to people. WE will not be able to recognize toxic people and we will freeze when faced with hooligans (similar to movie The incident from 1967 - with passengers trapped with hooligans who abuse them).
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@Nessy Ness Yeah, you are almost there. I am making new video "Invalidating environment", and I collect google images about topic I research. This way I reprogram my mind to remember ideas and concepts that are helpful. Due to Ebbinghaus Forgetting Curve and Amygdala Hijacking - we will forget all instructions, all helpful guidance and all that we learned, since our amygdala will take charge. When I calm down or find space to breathe, I can remember these helpful concepts - but the point is that the spot where I am the most weakest is where is the weakest link - and those are triggers and events that scare us and where our amygdala hijacking and emotional dysregulation takes over. That is why I see self worth as the only tool I can carry with myself through any situation. Instructions and guidelines are great - but they will fail when we need them the most - in scary situations (similar to original trauma).
With self worth I have given myself permission to withdraw helpful guidance advice. If I am being told, and if I believe that something is horribly wrong with me - for example, that I people please as reaction to trauma, then I will destroy my self worth - and I will enter the loop of intrusive worry and external reference locus of control (where I seek other people to save me and guide me). I am talking this from my own experience, and also Third wave of CBT is talking about this - DLT, Dialectical behavior therapy: one of main goals of DLT is "Acceptance of situations".
The goal is emotional regulation that I calm down, so that amygdala is disengaged so I can access cortex part of brain - where I can think clearly. If I am convinced that I am wrong because I people please, I will never get back to cortex. I will stay stuck / struck in amygdala hijacking, I will be emotionally dysregulated.
One of iconographic from "invalidating environment" concept that I am looking at right now (google images) is from Psychotherapy Academy, Validation in DBT: Basics and Purpose and it shows diagram: Invalidating environment is creating problems. While Validating environment leads to Solutions.
So I am not talking about "acting from their trauma". This is not about accepting trauma and to wallow in trauma. I am talking exactly the opposite - that I accept myself as I am - Stockdale Paradox - with flaws and all mistakes and difficulties - yet to act in spite of it - by validating myself. Which is traumatized and scary, and undone.
If I observe people pleasing as problem to overcome - I will invalidate my natural reactions to evil people. Also, I will stay dysregulated - I will feel anger and I will engage in fight mode in order to build wall against toxic people and to fight with people who cross my boundaries. But guess what happens with narcissists, manipulators and dark psychology - they all operate on your anger. They want to fight. They love drama, especially borderliners. They love hysteria and they control your mood by making you angry.
They use tools such as gaslighting to control you - and you are not even aware that they surf on your anger and enjoy your walls. This is what attracts them. They will use guilt and shame to break your walls and then in honeymoon phase they will validate you, and you will spill them secrets - that they will collect in their database to use again when their hysteria hour kicks in. Narcissist are excellent in manipulating people - this is their whole purpose of life. This is why criminal abuse in marriage ends in tragedy - they have nothing to live without narcissistic supply.
As Lisa Romano says in her videos very often: "Shutty, shutty" she says: "Narcissist is build to invalidate you. Pick on patterns of invalidation. It is pervasive pattern of invalidation, it is not once in a while. Look for pervasive pattern of invalidation, it is not only with you, especially with people who can't do nothing for narcissist, waitress, cleaning their room in hotel, children. They don't get empathy, they are annoyed by idea they should think about somebody else, it annoys them. Try to remember shutty shutty, disengage, there is zero benefit in arguing with someone who is highly narcissistic."
What I usually comment about trauma is that trauma makes us stuck due to brain injury. Long term exposure to narcissistic abuse and Narcissism causes brain damage (google it). This brain injury makes us immobile and inactive and we are stuck in intrusive worry, we try to solve and fix problems by thinking about them. This creates intrusive worry, PureOCD, hypervigilance, hyperalertness. So the only way to get unstuck is to get out of the car and give it a push, since it is stuck in the mud. This means, instead of waiting for our brain to feel good and pleasant enough - we change focus deliberately, we have chores and tasks to do - which we would ignore due to intrusive worry. Instead of listening to our brain and anxiety - we listen to our common sense, decisions, super ego inside us. And with toxic shame, we cannot listen to ourselves, because toxic shame makes us believe we are inept - which leads to external validation - and thus people pleasing. The solution is having self worth, to accept myself as I am, to love my flaws and mistakes - and work on them because I want them to be fixed, not because I want to influence other people, or because other people order me to stop people pleasing. The whole point is that we validate ourselves - so that we are calmed down - and then our cortex brain will take over, making decisions based on my self worth, what I see fit for myself - with mistakes and flaws. People pleasing is a result of operating and managing life externally, outside of myself. I don't need to fix it. I don't need to label this as negative or dangerous (because if I do I will dysregulate myself). All I have to do is to realize I can make decisions from within, from my own experience, from my own gathered knowledge and from my own idea what is right and what is wrong. I know this is very complex due to trauma. This is not how we were raised to think. This is very foreign and inverted thinking - but it is healthy. When we are raised without love and approval, it messes our mind. We think we are undone and we constantly must fix ourselves. Society will never validate ourselves - it will even make money out of our programmed need and urge to fix ourselves.
I say start with self worth. Intrinsic locus of control. Then, let our common sense guide us - instead of other people and our trauma based brain. Anxiety will lie to us. Anxiety has credibility as car salesman. Anxiety will force us to constantly fix something - similar to Hollywood celebrities who are convinced they are ugly, so they pay plastic surgery and end up disfigured. This is what happens with us, when our trauma and society convince us that we have to fix our core being. If I am kind person, if I am not violent - and these are traits of people prone to people pleasing - there is nothing to fix. I can modulate and experiment - but deep down, there is nothing to fix and improve. Shakespeare said: Be just and fear not.
"Some people want to work on themselves " Nope, it is that they actually seek is self worth. That is what they want to work on. People are seeking emotional regulation but nobody told them this concept so they do not know what they are looking for. Society will try to explain and sell tools and manipulate people into fixing what we cannot control and what does not need fixing at all. When we try to control the uncontrollable - we will develop anxiety. And anxiety makes us to people please. It is closed loop.
What I learned from Elaine Aron in her book "HSP" - is basically that our people pleasing is partly due to trauma, but it is also our personality that found way to both find balance between evil people and our persona - which means we are diplomatic and friendly. We strive for peace and cooperation. Interdependence is marked as highest achievement in personal development. People pay large sums of money to learn it. And we have it naturally inside us - we have it too much. If we pathologize our personality and qualities, we will create neurosis.
What I am saying is that we start looking at ourselves differently. If we have people pleasing issues - this means we have issues with self worth. And instead of fighting, building walls, learning strategies how to become "strong" - that we realize we already have everything we need inside us. We just have to access it. We cannot access it if we believe we are undone. That is paradox of confidence. If you try to be confident - you will never be confident,, you will always act and try to over-compensate. However, if you accept that you are not confident - paradoxically you will become very confident: being ok with being fool, mistaken, stupid and embarrassed. And then with this attitude you can learn and skill and instruction without problem and climb out of crab mentality and find way out of cave. This is the message in Wizard of Oz - that looking for magical wizard is fantasy, we have it inside us, and nobody told us that we don't need to look any further than our own heart.
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(26.1.2022)
I find difficult conversation hard due to Social Anxiety. It took me almost 20 years to find out it was Complex Trauma behind it. Being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7, finding faults and mistakes at the young age when making mistakes is natural, and being exposed to adult hysteria in time when child brain is unable to process is it in any other way than internalizing toxic shame. So.. even if I did say something, and stand up for myself - I would feel guilt and guilty. No advice would help me and I could not know why - I only learned about Complex Trauma in the past year. I would stumble upon good intentional advice such as "Express your opinion" and "Avoiding conversation feeds the fear" however I would have incredibly high panic attack symptoms perplexed with feeling of mud and dirt all over my body and mind. I never was explained that this experience was guilt and shame, programmed from trauma. I never was explained that my body was instructed and trained like circus animal or Pavlovian dogs to release body hormones and chemicals that affected my mood - to feel guilt and shame for simply existing.
It is only with Complex Trauma that I started to confront people without too much drama. Before I was convinced that either I shut up/self censor myself OR that I throw temper tantrum, explosions and wars if I want to express my opinion - there was no middle road, because I never seen one, living in toxic country. If I did witness someone defending themselves, I would label such person as nervous, difficult and even rude - because often it would turn into screaming and yelling. From my trauma position I never could discern hysteria from defending yourself.
What I do learn now is self-validation, and concept of environmental invalidation. When someone crosses their boundaries - it is called invalidation of other person. From my trauma perspective - this is ok, other people are competent, while me, due to toxic shame, I am inept. So external reference locus of control makes difficult conversation even more difficult, because due to programming from childhood I am actually advocating for the other person, instead of me. When I learned about this concept (trauma bonding, amygdala hijacking, locus of control), it made it much more easier to speak up and voice out the elephant in the room. With panic symptoms springing up - I would label them as fear (instead of norma HSP stimuli process and trauma reaction mixed together) and then my label would disable me - I would shoot myself in the foot by thinking because I feel panic and fear, there is something horrible wrong with me, and other people are normal, healthy correct and better and superior - so I must be pushover and fix others and not rock the boat. My explanation of my inner sensations were self sabotage to approach difficult conversation from the position of being on par. I never was on par - I was always inferior, always behind and always wrong - due to toxic shame (incorporated belief that I am wrong by default).
Without this toxic shame information and CPTSD trauma and self-validation - I doubt that people who have difficulties in expressing themselves will be able to do so.
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The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am then I can change. Carl Rogers
" If you fight the thoughts and feelings or judge yourself for having them, then you increase your emotional upset. You'll also miss out on important information about who you are as a person." Psychology Today
"What is an invalidating environment? An invalidating environment is a family that regularly sent you the message – directly or indirectly – that there was something wrong with your emotions. Or your emotions were ignored and you were expected to manage them alone." bayareadbtcc
"Emotional invalidation is when someone communicates to you that your emotions are not valid, are unreasonable or irrational, or should be hidden or concealed." verywellmind
"Narcissist is build to invalidate you. Pick on patterns of invalidation. It is pervasive pattern of invalidation, it is not once in a while. Look for pervasive pattern of invalidation" Lisa Romano
"If you live for people's acceptance, you will die from their rejection." Lecrae
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"These can include one’s attachment-style, personality traits, value system, perception of self-worth etc."
These are all connected to self-validation issues and living in invalidating environment. Most people are not aware of trauma and trauma concept - I heard about it, but I never explored it.
If someone has issues with people pleasing - meaning you are unable to say No and stand up for yourself - there has to be trauma that is preventing you to do so. Little kids have no issue saying no. This is something we are programmed and taught through lectures about shame, guilt from our society.
I am not attacking you. Your video is what 99% people pleasing videos are about - that we regard ourselves as invalid because of our fears and panic attacks regarding the confrontation. Society is programmed us to feel shame and guilt about ourselves, and it is double binding - we will feel shame if we stand up for ourselves and say no, we will feel shame if we shut up.
I see learning information about trauma, toxic shame, self-validation and invalidation as the way out of people pleasing issue. It comes down to accepting ourselves as we are. And then act from the self worth inside us. With mistakes and flaws included.
"The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am then I can change." Carl Rogers
People pleasing is very interesting phenomena because it is connected to inability to accept ourselves as we are. So unlike social skills, it is not something to learn or progress or remove or engage in war about. It is about total self-validation.
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"Yep snowflakes. Be depressed or not. It's a choice. Snap out of it"
I learned that people who invalidate others are real snowflakes. And more - they are mentally ill, unrecognized mentally ill people: narcissists, criminals, abusers, Machiavellians, psychopaths, sociopaths - they were emotionally invalidated as kids, have deep wounds, as "snowflakes" who talk about it - they simply decided to deal with this wound through abusing and invalidating other people, mocking them and bullying them. This is why narcissists are attracted to caring and sensitive people - both have deep wounds of being invalidated. Narcissists decided consciously to become predator and parasite, to develop their imaginary persona and act aggressive in order to exploit others to manage life, while sensitive people want to be good nice people, to obey rules and authority to such extreme at the expense of their own well being - so narcissists comes along, pulls toxic shame wounds in their targets (which they know by heart) and thus command and control easy targets by causing them to feel shame, guilt and unworthiness, pinpointing mistakes and flaws and what narcissistic sick society perceives as weakness.
Emotional invalidation is at the root of all mental imbalance and distortions.
Self Validation is the key and road to mental health. This means if someone mocks me I am snowflake - Yes I am, so what. People who label others as snowflakes as extreme snowflakes, they just hide it well by mocking easy targets who will shut up and take abuse.
"The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am then I can change." Carl Rogers
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I had realization yesterday, I watched Lisa Romano video about narcissistic invalidation of their targets - this trauma issue is connected to invalidating environment that caused trauma - and it is connected to self-validation as road to mental health. I learned about Complex Trauma last year..and now this was my missing puzzle - dynamics invalidation and self-validation.
"The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am then I can change." Carl Rogers
"If you live for people's acceptance, you will die from their rejection." Lecrae
"Stop looking for self-confidence in the form of approval" SproutNoDoubt
The greatest example are People pleasing videos on you tube. 99% of videos available approach being pushover as something very dangerous and ugly and detrimental and something that must be destroyed. While DBT tells us that we accept ourselves fully in order to gain self-validation. Abuse was based on invalidation and our mental issues built upon this toxic emotional abuse in form of constant negating criticizing and nagging about who we are inside. I comment for past two days with owners of those videos, and some of their argument is that people want to change and grow. I try to explain them that people pleasing is rooted in trauma - and you cannot grow if you do not accept yourself, with mistakes and flaws and being undone - because that is the road to self worth. Without self worth we cannot act and make decisions from within, we will seek approval of other people - and even though it is masked, it is still people pleasing - because we see other people as exclusive guidance, that someone must approve us.
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Elaine Aron in her HSP book said that society makes us observe our sensitivity as detrimental, ugly and something to destroy, that we are snowflakes for feeling things deeply and personally. She says that we accept ourselves as ok, and observe our sensations neutral, instead of labeling them as panic and fears.
As I understand narcissists and abusers taught us as kids that we are invalidated - being exposed to their constant criticism and their hysteria. I would see total acceptance as a way to build nervous system capacity. Self validation as antidote to emotional invalidation that caused our trauma.
If my pool is small - ok, so it is small. Paradox is, as I understand self validation - is that when I accept my pool is full and there is no room for anything else - and I accept this as ok, and not something I ought to panic about - that I will calm down. Abusers taught us to feel panic and to invalidate ourselves for having small pool. When I self-validate myself - the pool will get bigger, capacity will be increased. This is because I will not focus on panic and I will not label my limitations, flaws and mistakes as dangerous.
In my case - trauma is related to angry, screaming and hysterical people. I cannot bare it. I cannot be with such people - and today's societal norm, especially in poor and corrupt countries of Eastern Europe is to be hysterical, screaming and aggressive as mark of approval. So my pool is very small when I have to deal with such people. This means their anger is influencing my pool. Other people control my mood. Narcissists will sniff this out very easily - they are predators and they notice quickly when some people respond to their temper tantrums. Without CPTSD information I would usually shut up and self censor myself and I would engage in fawn response - people pleasing and being pushover. If someone accuse or mock me - I would simply smile to them, without defending myself. So, as I understand - this is problem - 1) narcissist being aggressive and 2) me being passive about it. 1) When someone is aggressive, this is invalidation. They invalidate the target. 2) When I shut up and fawn - this is self-invalidation, I advocate for the other person and I observe my panic fear symptoms as embarrassing and weak. As I understand instructions from DBT and self validation - what I need to do - is to accept it. Accept that there will be freaks out there. I do not need to control them. Paradoxically this will allow me to speak. Also, I need to accept my fear and panic symptoms as normal - it is trauma programming, I was programmed like circus animal to fawn. Therefore, self-validation would be that I accept it. Paradoxically, I will stop fawning. I checked this out in real life - I started to defend myself. I no longer felt the urge to shut up, and instead I let my natural reaction to come out on surface. I would feel guilty and embarrassed for speaking out before. I would not make this comments before, I would simply observe videos and decide to shut up and not voice out my thoughts and opinions. But now I am ok with being whatever I am. And the fear of embarrassment is gone.
"The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am then I can change." Carl Rogers
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""...too nice is not a good thing, eventually it will cause more issues than positives" Yeah, that is objective truth. however now it is perplexed with our personality. You cannot separate it, it is intertwined with persona. If you do that, you will lose your ability to make friendships, to make diplomacy, to be calm, to reach the solution - because fawning is trauma response - it helped us survive psychological abuse in times when child brain was unable to process mentally ill people in our midst. If you go opposite from being nice - you will not be kind, because from trauma perspective, these two are glued together. We perceive being nice and kind as the same entity - narcissists programmed this into us, like a virus, and now this is our reality, it is distorted, but this is how our brain works - we were molded into this perverted thinking as kids. Narcissists to this because evil multiplies itself by being aggressive to others. Narcissistic abuse goal was that we became narcissists ourselves, that we create drama and hysteria, however good healthy part of us rebel against this evil and mental illness - in a form of developing people pleasing. So people pleasing is not that bad, it is immature ego defense mechanisms, layer and shield that was designed by innate healthy part of our psyche to protect us from severe psychopaths that we were exposed to as kids. People pleasing is like shield, like being in a cocoon in movie Superman - that helped us to travel through space and reach Earth without incinerating during re.entry :D :D Cocoon of people pleasing is unnecessary as adults, but we kept being inside it as adults because society is extremely ego-centric and narcissistic and abusive - and not intelligent enough to describe what happened, and doesn't care about other people to explain them what this cocoon is.
So self validation means - that we accept people pleasing yet to work in direction as described in this video. What will happen with most people in real life is that they will feel extreme guilt and shame when they do speak their opinion. This part is not covered in this video - this is psychology onward. Guilt and shame is implanted inside us during childhood trauma (CPTSD). Our body is trained like circus animal or Pavlovian dog to feel extreme shame and guilt when we are authentic. And paradox is - we can't be authentic if we do not accept that people pleasing is not part of us. It will not go away. It is ingrained brain injury due to psychological abuse when we were kids. Self validation is the only way to manage life. That I am ok with fawning, yet to speak my mind anyway. That I will be prone to shut up, but to speak my mind anyway. That I will have urge to self-censor myself, but to voice out the elephant in the room. That I must throw temper tantrums and hysteria as response to other people throwing temper tantrum and hysteria - but to calmly repeat my truth, opinion and what I truly believe inside to be true. And if necessary to leave. People pleasing will not allow us to leave, brain injury makes us stuck, that we must solve and fix other people. So leave anyway. People pleasing will not allow us to embarrass ourselves - embarrass yourself anyway. Being pushover will makes us avoid mistakes frantically - make mistakes on purpose and check what happens. I learned that with people pleasing we never step out, we never break the ice, we never check out parallel universe - what happens when I warn and alert others, when I speak out silent inner voice out. In most cases I have predictions (due to brain injury of trauma CPTSD) that there will be catastrophe and that I will die, or that something horrible will happen - but in most cases in reality it won't. People pleasing does not allow us to document abuse - instead we react to it from position of fear.
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I found prey advice extremely eye opening and helpful. IT goes along with information that fear prevent us making decisions and acting on it - but life will force us to make decisions and act on them anyway - no matter how safe I play and no matter how hard I try to stay hidden and no matter what I do to avoid life. Also, it reminds me that when I shut up, and not rocking the boat - without being aware of it - I am very much active and I very much rock the boat - it just does not happen immediately. From my perspective it seems calm and normal and nothing is happening - but being passive and inactive is also a form of activity. The inverted one. Similar to the movie Tenet (2020). Our people pleasing world is do distorted and ego-centric, tunnel vision due to trauma, that I do not see other angles and future, where the ship is going. From my people pleasing too nice perspective I react to trauma and I attend to my wound all the time in form of agreeing and self-censorship - where I am inept by default - and other people are managing everything, and other people are the ones who know ultimate truth. So from this position I let others decide and I tune my worth to anything that other people comment or criticize. What I cannot see from this tunnel vision - is that I have ability to speak, and make decisions and that I have inside me a guide that I look in others for. It is inside us - but I cannot see it due to toxic shame. So, I never trust my decisions and experience - so I never check what would happen if I insist on my view. Thus I stay stuck in Confirmation Bias.
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People dislike being criticized. Thus society is by default machine that will mold you into being people pleaser. As you said, society can't function without diplomacy, however not rocking the boat means being stuck and not moving. Not suggesting new things and to change the present condition. Then you enter sensitive people (which society labels as weak and inept). Then we believe society labels and we become people pleasers due to toxic shame of being inept. Elaine Aron said in her HSP book that the way we process reality - life, people, events is different than most people. We have extra stimuli process - and no one tells us what this mechanism is other than weak and sickness. Then this label makes us neurotic and ill and distorted - and we shut up and become pushover. Social anxiety is extreme form of people pleasing where trauma is programmed into individual to shut up and develop toxic shame.
"Being sensitive to the discomfort, disapproval, or anger of others probably made you quick to follow every rule as perfectly as possible, afraid to make a mistake. Being so good all the time, however, meant ignoring many of your normal human feelings-irritation, frustration, selfishness, rage. Since you were so eager to please, others could ignore your needs when in fact yours were often greater than theirs." Elaine Aron "The Highly Sensitive Person"
So people pleasing could be 1) reaction to trauma and abuse in childhood (constant criticism and exposure to adult hysteria when child brain was unable to proces is) and - or 2) extra stimuli process that sensitive people perceive life. This ability makes us see anything from multiple dimensions and angles - this is positive and good thing, this is the last stage in child development - to outgrow ego-centrism.
So in both cases - people pleasing and being too nice - is not something you can change at the press of a button. It is not something you can return to store and replace it with confident super personality. It does not work that way.
Confident people appear to us as super people - because we only see face value, we do not see what is going on behind the scene. Confidence, true confidence means being ok with being un-confident. Confidence is paradox. If you force yourself to be confident (by stopping your natural reactions or learned reactions to trauma) - you are over-compensating. This is not confidence.
Self-validation means that we accept ourselves, in total. Wu Wei tells us that we react to life like bamboo stick - bend without breaking. This means, if I am not able to have self worth in this moment, to be authentic and honest (aka not being too nice) - that I accept myself as I am. Anything other than that will create chronic worry, hypervigilance, intrusive worry and anxiety.
"The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am then I can change." Carl Rogers
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"People who are too nice tend to be kind hearted and saying no make them feel guilty". What really make them feel guilty is programmed psychological abuse in childhood. Where your whole body is working against you when you say no. Body pumps out hormones and chemicals that affect the mood to feel guilty. This is something trapped in your body. This is not something you can change at the press of a button. But also, this is not something that cannot change for a better.
People pleasing is not trait, neither it is a set of wrong habits or wrong instructions. It is a mentality based on trauma. Ok, some people people please due to their Machiavellism, they are predators and their being too nice is part of agenda or honeymoon phase where they attract easy targets (people who are really genuinely too nice). But such predators are the cause of trauma. They create people pleasers in their children or environment.
People who are too nice - have ingrained internalized toxic shame (deep core programmed hypnotized belief that they are inept, wrong and incapable to manage life). Thus people pleasing is stemming from this toxic shame. If we realize toxic shame is hallucination, we will bring back self worth back where it belongs, inside us. When we have self worth and self validation inside us - then we do not apologize too much, then we do say no more often, them we are able to wait and think before agreeing, because I am able to check with my self if what are my true priorities. When I no longer trauma bond and seek external validation and external approval - I will be able to naturally remove myself from toxic environment and I will no longer miss red flags to recognize predators.
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This is due to external reference locus of control. due to toxic shame (core belief that we are inept to lead life and make decisions) we export our self worth (without being aware of it) onto other people. This is called trauma bonding, Stockholm Syndrome, external validation.
Self-validation breaks apart toxic shame. This means, we accept ourselves totally as we are and strive to well being. Well being is not that we compare with others. Well being is not that I wait for others to approve my thoughts, opinions. Well being is not throwing temper tantrums and being hysterical. If I have self worth inside me, I will tend to express myself - if I am kind and nice person - then I will be kind and nice person. I will not change my persona for someone.
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Being too nice is not choice. This is not something you can change at a press of a button. Can we just imagine what kind of amount of trauma there had to be in childhood to become pushover in adulthood? Trauma cannot be ignored. Trauma will not go away by putting a fake mask - of being "strong" by throwing temper tantrums and being hysterical. This is what narcissists do.
Trauma means that even when I do correct steps - I will feel shame and guilt. Being too nice is part of Complex Trauma. And we heal trauma by self-validation, which is paradox. That I accept being too nice - but work on being authentic and honest and not self-censoring myself. Without CPTSD information I will not understand why I react, overreact and why there are panic attacks. I will not be able to recognize triggers and flashbacks and shame and guilt as tools of control imposed by unrecognized mentally ill people in our trauma childhood.
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This topic is so connected with social anxiety and people pleasing and complex trauma. The connecting basis is toxic shame (deep ingrained feeling I am inept, inferiority complex, being programmed through relentless criticism 24/7 while growing up to fawn) which leads my self worth being exported to other people - external reference locus of control. This means, I observe other people as gods and I take whatever they say as ultimate truth - because deep down I believe I am unworthy and wrong due to toxic shame. So my mood will be influenced by other people - my emotions will match their reactions and their emotions - since my self worth is placed in other people. This is done unconsciously, without Complex Trauma - I am not aware this concept exists, it is called trauma bonding.
"you are weak. It sound like victim shame" This is invalidation. You are not allowing other person to be who they are, you are invalidating them.
"When I am around very weak person, I hate them" Because you are sick. You lack empathy. You are narcissist. You were abused in childhood, exactly like "weak" people - however you learned to deal with psychological abuse by exploiting "weak" people. You are parasite.
"I have a visceral feeling about someone when they're very weak" So you are affected by other person. It is the same dynamics with "weak" people inverted. "Weak" people want to please others and fix them, due to trauma in childhood where they were also exposed to unrecognized mentally ill person, however "weak" people followed their healthy soul and tried to stay healthy. Unlike you, you decided consciously to put on a mask and pretend to be "strong". "Weak" person will be needy due to trauma, while you as narcissist became predator. They will provide service, you will exploit them. Both are result of trauma. It is not like you are normal - it only appears in your narcissistic head that you are normal, you are not. You are sick in the head. You consciously became mentally ill person. You simply became monster to deal with trauma.
"I get disgusted" That is narcissistic injury. Rejected part of yourself, that you rejected as kid and turned into abuser and manipulator of "weak" people.
"angry, and it makes me want to exploit them" As I said - parasite. You seek "weak" people to provide you with narcissistic supply. "Normal" people will recognize red flag of narcissists and they will cut contact very soon as they meet you. However "weak" people will miss red flags (due to trauma abuse) and their programmed urge to fix and to be subservience will make you into a perfect match - where narcissists exploit, and "weak" person supply you with grandiose feeling.
"You might even think I'm bad person" Nope. You are simply mentally ill. It is great that you are honest, since most narcissists hide this, they are either not aware or they will never explain others how they really think, because they are intelligent enough to realize what you are doing is immoral and unethical.
"understand it" Your words will not transform "weak" people into "strong" person. What will happen is that they will cut contact with you, if they are aware of Complex Trauma and toxic shame. The alternative is they will do nothing and suffer the abuse in silence.
"When I come across a weak person, I don't help them, I walk away, I don't want any part of it" That is not true. You just said that you exploit them. You will verbally abuse them. You will mock them. Because in your mind they are "weak". Since you lack empathy due to sociopathy and mental illness, you have no ability to realize these people are not weak at all, and that they are running on virus program, implanted by mentally ill people like yourself in their childhood. They are hypnotized into subservience. It is not a choice. So, it cannot be fixed by you being totally honest about your narcissistic agenda.
"If I was a bad person I would exploit the shit out of them" And you do. You do it, and you are not aware of it. As narcissists you are unable to have healthy relationship - so any normal and healthy person will read red flags from you and they will stay away from you. You will also feel disgust from normal and healthy people however you will be able to form any closer relationship only with "weak" people - because they are the only ones who will tolerate your ego-centric mentality.
"It is like some people beg for it" This is due to trauma in childhood. They are trained like circus animals or Pavlovian dogs into begging to be exploited. This is not a choice, it is hypnosis.
"Don't ever become someone who's so weak that you beg for it" It is not a choice. It is hypnosis.
"I took high road - is often an excuse and justification for being a doormat" Ok, but what if this person has ingrained toxic shame, and if they lose that job because they get into calm argument - and they live in corrupt country, where you can't find another job quickly. What happens then? When your Maslow needs are connected to people who abuse you? (job, finances, shelter, security).
"You should speak up for yourself, not swear, or raise your voice or demand how it's going to be or else, real stable stoic boundary setting" 1) People who went through dysfunctional childhood do not know about the middle road. It is either drama and explosion or be quiet. 2) If you need to speak up for yourself, than there is opposition on the other side. Usually, if this is chronic, than this means you are in toxic environment - with people who exploit others, who are prone to crime. You talk to them - they will not listen to you. They will swear, raise their voice and demand how it's going to be. You cannot argue with them. They turn their back and leave. That is reality. It is either you be silent or explode in rage - anything other does not work with toxic people.
"If you take high road too often you will become resentful and angry" Nope. People who went through psychological abuse by untreated mentally ill people in their childhood will not become resentful. They will become resentful when people like you come into show and try to "explain" what is going on, from an ego-centric, one sided point of view. You are explaining the trauma dynamics from resentful side, you are the one creating the atmosphere of resentment because you are brainwashing people into believing that "weak" is something horribly wrong and it must be destroyed - with the goal that this will magically make you a "strong" person. It won't. Abuse is psychological issue. This is not something you can heal with more abuse, with inciting resentment.
"You can be a victim a very weak person and be victimized" These are labels that you created in your sick head. It is bias, it is mental shortcut, it is oversimplification of complex matter.
"You can take the high road too many times and be angry and resentful" Again, people who underwent trauma in childhood will be hypnotized into high road. They will not feel resentful at all, since abuse made them withstand the abuse. Your explanation will not help them, it will make them feel worse - depression and suicidal ideation - since their hypnosis does not allow them to see what you try to explain here from narcissistic point of view.
"When you take the high road too many times you start to become a person who thinks, believes, knows" This is what you got wrong. "Weak" people did not one day wake up and decided to take high road. It was implanted in them in early age, when kid was helpless and hapless. This is not some ingrown nail that suddenly appeared out of nowhere. This is systematic abuse by very mentally insane people like you, who molded their kids into either becoming abusers like themselves - or becoming slaves to abusers.
"knows that everything everyone around them must change for them" This is also what you misunderstand. There are two types of codependents. First type are "weak" people who are abused into subservience. This means that they will try to change for that person. It is not about manipulating others, it is inverted into manipulating oneself so that other person will not display original trauma triggers that was part of original abuse. This stuff you cannot understand because you are mentally ill person, you lack empathy, you are narcissist, you see world from your own tunnel vision and you belong in second type: Second type are "weak" people who put on a mask and pretend to help others, but they are aware that they must be "strong" so they will use manipulation into changing other people. That is what you do with your narcissistic speech here. You want to change and manipulate "weak" people into becoming like yourself. Borderline person who likes causing tension and who cannot tolerate empathy and other people's emotions, except your own.
"They never had practice, had the courage to confront to set boundaries" Yeah, you are definitely second type of weak people. You are borderline. You have deep toxic shame inside you, but you learned through abuse that you are allowed to abuse and control and manipulate other people by "speaking the honest truth". You are not honest. You construct your honesty as manipulation. It appear as courage, and strength and honesty to you - but it is not. You are simply jerk - but you convinced yourself that if you are "honest" that this makes you ok. This is called Ethical rudeness.
"They get pissed off and they're mad" This is definite sign you do not understand "weak" people. People pleasers are not angry, they are conditioned into not feeling and expressing anger. You are contradicting yourself, you said that they always take high road - and now this is not high road. Therefore, they do not take high road all the time. Your logic is faulty. You are overgeneralizing and simplify complex issue - so that your "honesty" is not "honest" at all - it is brainwashing and manipulation of facts and objective reality to serve you as person who is not "weak". You are not strong for being honest. You are borderline, you are toxic.
"I really like to assess every negative situation with honesty asking myself what percentage did I participate in that bad thing happening" However your tunnel vision ego-centric mind is unable to learn about philosophy and psychology, so you have no idea that Confirmation bias exists and that your mind is build to protect itself from experiencing anything painful - so you will not be ever able to know all the truth about anything in life. This means our brain will trap us into bias and logical fallacies by default.
"get really good at being really responsible" What does that mean? Does this mean money will fall out of heaven if I blabber around and confront everyone? What if I am highly intelligent and I see confrontation about anything in life? Will I go around and scream at people and confront them? I could do that 24/7, there are so many things that are wrong and I have my opinion about them. Will people love me if I tell them that they are mentally ill? Is Cognitive dissonance in others something that will disappear if I speak my truth? You are scapegoating "weak" people for anything in life. That is narcissism. Guess what, bad things happen even if you do all the right things. Mistakes are part of life, we cannot be perfectionists, that is not realistic.
"You change direction of your life because you have the power" You cannot change direction of your life by being convinced that I am weak, and that somehow I must be strong. That is not how psyche works. Your approach leads to mental instability, chronic worry, hypervigilance and being hyper alert, you are talking about building borders. And let me guess, you will charge a lot of money to show how to build walls?
"How do you want to be spoken to" Again, you are missing the trauma part and that people were exposed to mentally ill people like you in their young age. This is not something you change at the press of button. Exposure to long term narcissistic abuse causes brain damage. There is brain injury inside - this is not something you heal by logic and explanations and instructions.
"Don't you want a life where people get to speak to you honestly" There is You tube video by Einzelgänger called "Ethical Rudeness | The Philosophy of Mencius" where he talks about this subject: "A group can use their intolerance to ridicule unpopular opinions to silent people. For the sole person to hurt people and claim you did morally right is ethical rudeness."
You are trying to control and manipulate people. This is why you belong in second group. You feel deep down very weak, but as narcissist you decided to cover it up, just like any bully and manipulator out there by pretending to be "strong" and being "honest" - but honest only that is serves you and your own agenda. What you do not see due to your ego-centrism is that your honesty scares "weak" people and you exploit them. You throw temper tantrum concealed as honesty and you pick fruits of your tyranny. From your perspective you are convinced that you are strong and that people fawning on to you is because you are honest. Nope, you are tyrannical. You are parasite - you will get anything in life by putting down people who were abused into subservience in their childhood. Normal and healthy people will contact with you immediately, as soon as they realize who you are and how you function. You cannot go through life by being focused and fixated on boundaries. Normal and healthy people are not obsessed about being rude to each other, because they do not function from that frame of reference. Look at your examples - being rude for being late? Hasn't it occur to you that maybe some people have slow capacity to plan? Perhaps they are leading double lives and some secrets that they juggle? We don't know. We don't know what is happening inside other people lives. And you refuse to let empathy guide you (because you are narcissistic borderline and in your head people are divided in black and white: strong and weal). Guess what, without empathy, you cannot create healthy relationships. What you will end up with is neurosis and people who are afraid of you. Which as you said, makes you sick.
"You can say it in nice way" Normal person would say nothing. They would take time and examine what is happening and the way they would talk about is natural - not something you plan in ahead of that they have a pattern or instruction about how to confront people with issues. It just comes out naturally, something you are unable to perform, because you see it from this perspective: "I'm being honest, you don't like how I'm being honest" Nope - you are neurotic. You have neurosis and you try to spread it on "weak" people to brainwash them into your illness.
"I don't want you to live your life in anger and resentment" But this is exactly what you are creating here. Anger is normal and healthy emotion. Anger is not something to destroy or stifle or ignore. Resentment is mental illness, and you are creating a lot of resentment for yourself.
You are not honest. You are toxic person and have this issue totally wrong.
What this person does not understand is that there are sensitive people out there - who process their reality in totally different manner than the most of society. And that there are people who went through trauma in childhood that is affecting their stress response in form of fawning. Both types are prone to labeling by ego-centric society which has its own definitions of "strong" and "weak"
"We have to ignore all the messages from the warriors that we are not as good as they are. The warriors have their bold style, which has its value. But we, too, have our style and our own important contribution to make." The Highly Sensitive Person, Elaine N. Aron
"They see us as timid, shy, weak, or unsociable. Fearing these labels, we try to be like others. But that leads to our becoming overaroused and distressed. Then that gets us labeled neurotic or crazy, first by others then by ourselves." The Highly Sensitive Person, Elaine N. Aron
"The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am then I can change." Carl Rogers
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Such important skill - to spot manipulators. They will never come with label Machiavellian on their forehead. They will appear as friendly with tons of criticism and their labels what they perceive as wrong. Usually borderliners are like that. Or they will be flat aggressive without holding back - and these open types exploit trauma bonding issues in their targets. In any way, they love drama and engage in conflicts. From their perspective they see themselves as Crusaders. They see others as weak. And in fact they are not only strong - but they are also healers and they correct the bad guys out there, since they have mentally ill grandiose fantasy about themselves as god entity.
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Amazing topic.
We can see this prison environment in the case of Novak Djokovic - where he lives in a corrupt, morally bankrupt country, with system similar to the prison - where being nice is considered weakness, and where you get by cheating and doing by your own invented rules created by dark elite - so what happens in Australia - which is normal healthy and good country - he gets kicked out of it because he brought his poor Balkan mentality into prosperous country - where there is law which is fair and thus equal to all citizens. Novak did not understand this, because his whole life he is in prison mentality - where your influence and power means you create your own rules and your own world.
What you talk about is sociology concept - that is also part of modern psychology in dealing with mental issues : called validation. That means we validate other people. This does not mean approve, it is just understanding and building relationship on this mutual understanding. As the only healthy way to manage life and socializing through interdependency. Our society is not built that way. Society and human mind is prone to biases and mental shortcuts, logical fallacies and jumping to quick conclusions as a way to deal with events and people in our lives.
This is where it gets complex. There are people who are healthy and they want relationships which are mutually caring and respectful. However, there are manipulators, predators, narcissists out there who take advantage of this concept of mutual understanding. They take advantage of people who are respectful to them. So people who get burned by them - become distrustful to people who appear aggressive. That is issue. That people are not able to recognize red flags, they overgeneralize and jump to conclusions to anything similar to original trauma. I see being objective and being honest as a way out. If I talk to person who appears aggressive and dangerous, I could test and check whether they are really dangerous or am I over-reacting due to past trauma.
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"don't lie or make excuses." Yeah, this is what I learned from Zoroastrianism, to be honest and authentic. Modern stoicism and alpha male channel thread also highlight this trait as desirable and good path. However there is complex part - where 1) by being honest, we can hurt other people. Ethical rudeness as not filtering our thoughts and thus hurting other people by being totally honest. There is great video about this issue: You tube video by Einzelgänger called "Ethical Rudeness | The Philosophy of Mencius" where he talks about this subject: "A group can use their intolerance to ridicule unpopular opinions to silent people. For the sole person to hurt people and claim you did morally right is ethical rudeness." So there should be disclaimer with honesty. 2) if we are intelligent and or sensitive - everything will bother us, and we will have tons of stuff to nag and complain about - and we can label this complaining as honesty. However it is also form of ethical rudeness - and it comes off as tiresome and people will get sick about hearing complaints and it is a cycle of negative energy that leads to no resolution 3) there are manipulators out there who use dark psychology and exploit honesty factor in order to place guilt and shame on other people. Classical CBT also tried this in modern psychology - that they force person to feel bad enough by spewing honest facts about being people pleaser. Manipulators will use this honesty as a way to gain their agenda - to exploit others, to gain information, while classical psychiatry tried using toxic shame and guilt into making other people healthy by making them embarrassed. In both cases, the outcome is disaster and catastrophe and it does not work in long term. 4) there are sensitive and highly empathetic people out there who think twice before making decision or proposing anything - in order not to hurt other person. This can go to such extreme as to lie and not being honest - since the truth may hurt the other person. How would you feel if someone who is highly intelligent and see traits of psychopath and narcissist in you? Would you like to hear the truth about your mistakes and embarrassing moments in crowd, live on TV, in front of your family? What if you experimented with gay sex or sadomazo sessions in college and your college friend drops by one day on birthday lunch with your family - kids and relatives at the table. Would you like to hear him his honest experiences with you on horny weekends long time ago? Taking hard drugs or perhaps date raping easy targets? Probably not - so you would appreciate the other person for not being honest, for making excuses and even making up white lies to cover up your embarrassment. This is extreme example, but this can also apply to much less severe examples.
We can be honest - where honesty comes from within our soul - if we have no evil agenda, if we do not want to hurt other people, if we have no pleasure in seeing other people hurt or in pain - that is different kind of honesty than the one which comes from evil. If we see "honesty" as ultimate solution to anything in life, we will with time abuse it - in order to exploit and control other people. From our perspective it will seem as if we are the Crusaders and other people are wrong, so we are allowed to be brutally honest in order to correct other people and control them. Urge to control other people is cognitive distortion.
So with that all in mind, honest and being honest is no longer much that easy concept. Because it can be misused and abused. I see easy solution - by being a good and nice person. Without evil agenda behind any of my action. If I start to monitor my words, that my honesty does not come out as manipulation, I will end up with chronic worry and hypervigilance and anxiety. Therefore - much easier solution and natural one - is to be a good person. No cheating, no exploiting, no enjoyment in other people suffering (no matter how annoying and obnoxious they are). And then being honest comes natural, without any special instruction or rule how to form and mold my words. Instead of "dont lie. dont make exuses" - I would say - Be nice person and follow common sense. Lie in extreme cases, make excuses when you know some people can't handle the truth - but in most cases be yourself - based on the fact you live normal clean life without manipulations, exploiting and hurting other people. Then you do not need to be careful about lying and making excuses anyway.
"Keep short and sweet" I would add - if other person insist on even after this, this is red flag that the other person is probably narcissist, they do not respect you as person. Thus I would shift focus from myself onto other person. How other person react to my opinion, my words, my thoughts. Do they try to manipulate me through guilt tripping? If I focus on instructions how to talk - I will miss to read and see red flags around me.
"Be assertive" I read and saw many assertive instructions. Many mentors do not understand that if grown person, if adult person is not assertive - this is due to trauma. Normal and healthy grown up person would not shut up if someone is rude. This is due to being exposed to mentally ill person when they were growing up. it is a sign that there is trauma trapped inside individual's body. So this means - you cannot change this at the press of button. You cannot change this by logic. This is not something you change by understanding that being assertive is super and great.
"provide alternative" Your video is called how to say no without feeling guilty, but you miss the trauma part - you are convinced that people who are not assertive will be aware that they are not assertive and that these people will watch videos. Nope. People who have serious issues about people pleasing and standing up for themselves
"saying no will not make you bad person, realize this" But they can't. People who have people pleasing issues have gone through trauma. This is body thing. Trauma is trapped inside the body. this is not something that you realize and you snap out of it. The body is conditioned like Pavlovian dogs and circus animals in feeling extreme shame and guilt when you stand up for yourself. Panic kicks in due to body which is pumping hormones and chemicals inside that are affecting the brain - brain has brain damage due to long term narcissistic abuse exposure - so there is brain injury that makes people to fawn. We cannot control this by realization that I have to say no to people. This can only be changed by managing Complex Trauma. Toxic shame is ingrained inside - that is the real cause of inability to say no - ingrained belief that you are unworthy and inept to lead life, so your external reference locus of control is making your self worth located in other people. That is why is it hard to say no - since your self worth is not inside you. You are advocating for the other people - since your self worth is trauma bonded with other people. toxic shame says I am inept and crap - therefore other people are superior, and gods, and whatever they say is ultimate truth which I must obey. I see placing back self worth inside us and trusting our common sense and our super-ego inside us to guide as a solution to saying no to people.
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(reddit)
This is like me talking before I learned about CPTSD. The very first concept I learned from cPTSD was external reference locus of control and fawning - why we do it. It is reaction to trauma and now it is default reaction to triggers and flashbacks, and anything that resembles to original trauma. Thus people pleasing.
I feel that anger - I know we look and observe any issue any even and anything in life from multiple dimensions, from multiple angles - and still there are people who come and complain when we are not perfect and when we make mistakes.
CPTSD taught me to accept myself (self-validation) and not attack myself for being "weird" or "weak".
I discovered Allen Ginsberg as great role model for this concept. He was the pioneer of beatnik movement in 1950s and he almost end up in jail for yelling and screaming - because he let his voice come out - he probably was frustrated like we for playing by the rules and still get trampled on and disrespected. He was in mental health institution early in his life. He said: "1. You can't win. 2. You can't break even. 3. You can't even get out of the game." "Candor disarms paranoia." "Follow your inner moonlight; don't hide the madness."
I think the message that we received about being nice and good - went too extreme. These messages from society were meant for psychopaths and people without empathy. We were over-learned.
So what happens next it - situation similar to the movie "The Incident" from 1967 with young Martin Sheen. With passengers stuck in train carriage with 2 hooligans - and nobody confronts them due to societal norms and rules that you must not have natural reactions to unreasonable people.
Similar to the movie "A Clockwork Orange" from 1971 where the main character is brainwashed by authorities correctional system into non violence, so he is unable to stand up for himself and protect himself.
You practically giving solution to your own problem. You said: " I’ve had to be the bigger person my entire life" Don't be. Allow yourself not to be bigger. Be yourself, natural. Try it out.
"it’s bite your tongue" Don't bite it anymore. Speak up. Even if your voice is shaking and people are laughing at you.
"calm down" Don't calm down. Throw temper tantrum and check out what happens. Problem is with us that we never allowed natural reactions because we were traumatized by them in childhood so we swore never to do them ourselves as adult. If someone is rude - throw temper tantrum. Don't calm down. This person is not in trauma. This person is not child. This person is not innocent. They deserve aggression and rudeness.
"smooth things over," Don't smooth anything. Speak your words naturally, with hysteria or not. Don't apologize - don't do anything. If someone is messing up with kind and nice people - these sick people do not deserve anything nice.
"don’t make it such a big deal." Make it a big deal. Make it into explosion and just see what happens when you explode. We have inner mechanism that prevents us from explosions and hurting others, trust this mechanism and explode when someone is rude. Do it as experiment - the very next time it happens. This is lesson that we are missing - we do not allow learning what will happen and how far we are allowed to big deal. We are afraid of big deal because we experienced and we know how much it hurts. As I said, people who pick up on you are abnormal. They deserve explosion. It is the only way they will stop hurting you. and - Cut contact with them if possible. After explosion. So that they know why you ignore them. We will cut contact with them anyways.
" keep tight control over my words and behavior," Don't keep it tight anymore. Loosen it up. See what will happen.
" validating and understanding and making concessions for the feelings and behavior of everyone around me." You can still do this and explode. You can care for other people and still explode and lose control. Due to trauma we were learned into black and white thinking, there was no gray area.
"People think they can say and do whatever they want to me, and flip out if I ever snap back or enforce a boundary" Tell them this when you explode.
"I hand out apologies like candy" Don't do it anymore.
"almost never receive them in return" Cut trauma bonding and external reference locus of control. They are not important anymore. Your self worth inside, let it guide you and approve you. Not other people. This is the very first major message that I picked from learning about cPTSD.
"I don’t want to hurt other people, but want to be allowed to have big feelings too" Hurt them. This is true, we will hurt them when we start to speak up. We can divide people in two groups: 1) kids trapped in grown man body running around in panic with ego-centrism and narcissism and borderline hysteria and 2) true grown ups, who are like Catcher in the rye, watching out for kids not to go over-board. When you start voicing out the elephant in the room you will hurt them. Do it. That is the only way that they will not jump over the cliff. They will hate it, they will protest it. Hurt them anyway. Hurt them with the truth about what they have done. Be objective. Be totally transparent and repeat it. They will try to shut you up. Don't shut up. Keep talking. If your voice is shaking fine. Talk anyway. If your voice is breaking, let it break, but keep talking. IF you cannot do it in calm manner - become hysterical. With time you will learn to be calm. Not at first. The first time is toughest - because we never tried this out, we were never allowed to do it.
This is similar to China cultural revolution from 1966 - where spoiled brats become authority and they mocked and hurt their teachers and professors and humiliated them. This is what is happening with us. We are being humiliated for being normal, healthy and friendly. Sickness in society will try to make society sick. Look at it this way. IT comes down to self-validation - that you are fine and ok with your rules, with your way of life and that you voice out your opinions especially when someone is rude with us. I see someone's unwarranted criticism as Star Trek hailing frequency open channel - where you have to communicate with aliens. Do it. Communicate with aliens, they are hailing you. Scream at them, yell, if you do not know what to do, if you are panicked and afraid - do whatever but do not shut up. Do not self-censor yourself.
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(reddit)
" professionals who specialise in CPSTD all say that recovery means putting up boundaries and that it's healthy to be snappy" Who says that? Can you quote their exact words?
I doubt that professionals ever tell exactly what you must do. Piaget tells us that if we tell someone how to do something, we take away forever their ability to learn it by themselves.
I think you misunderstood them. Self-validation is key to healing from trauma - because we were living in chronic invalidation, chronic invalidating environment. This means - you were being told what you are, and what you must do. Now as adults, we have toxic shame (we believe we are inept) and we seek external validation - external reference locus of control - for others to tell us what to do and how to manage life.
Intrinsic locus of control means we realize toxic shame is hallucination and that we trust our own judgement, decisions including mistakes and our flaws. Totally accept ourselves. This means - if you are not ready to set boundaries - be fine with it. Don't blame yourself for not being able to set boundaries at this very moment. Guilt is the motor of toxic shame and trauma. So - if you think you must do this or that - you are operating from the guilt frame of reference.
The point of psychology is that we learn how to catch the fish ourselves - and not wait for others to give us fish. It is about leaning on our own common sense and our decisions and our own super-ego inside us to give us instructions about how to manage our life in desirable direction - life without drama and hysteria, life without guilt and shame.
"I'm somehow expected to" That is external reference locus of control. When we operate from others, from other people. That we have to fulfil other people orders and commands. Whereas internal locus of control is when you do naturally and make decisions from within yourself. What you know is correct - even though you might be mistaken and make horrible mistake. You know you can rely on your knowledge and gathered information - you will do your best from what you know.
"learn to value myself" There is nothing to learn nor to value. You just accept yourself fully right now as you are. With mistakes and with flaws and without full knowledge, undone as you are. That is the point. Come as you are.
"take no shit" If you cannot confront people - don't. Take their crap. Don't beat yourself up. Trauma is brain injury, this is not something you can heal over night. Trauma is having body that is pumping chemicals and hormones in times when we need to stand up for ourselves -we were trained and hypnotized into subservience and being passive. Of course this takes time. Don't beat yourself up for being yourself. Fawning and taking crap has its positive sides, too, This means you value friendships and peace. When you realize you already do value friendships and peace - you will allow yourself to stretch the definition of peace - that may include war. :D This takes time - but it won't happen if you think you must obey someone's orders and commands how you were suppose to lead your own life. Other people can give you suggestions and some instructions - but your own life is your secret garden, you have authority over it. You are allowed to break rules and experiment with it.
"at the same time stay 100% amiable, weak and passive" Try it out - accept it. Accept that you will be 100% amiable and weak and passive. Accept it totally. Say to yourself - I will be this forever and go to the extreme. Experiment what will happen. Make it into parody. When someone is rude - be extra amiable. Go overboard. If you are weak - highlight it. Say it out loud the next time when someone is verbally and psychologically torturing you :"OH I am so weak. I will be so weak now". Passive also - be extra passive.
What you will notice - you will stop resisting it - and by magic, you will start to scream and yell at the other person who is abusive to you. You will protect yourself and affirm your boundaries, it will come out of you naturally.
Paradox of confidence tells us that when we try to be confident - we will never be confident. We will over-compensate. Paradoxically when we accept ourself as non-confident; we will become confident. Embarrass yourself. Make a fool of yourself. If you shut up - don't shut up. Don't self-censor yourself.
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(reddit)
" meanwhile, you make a throwaway comment, let alone biting back against bad stuff? Instant ban, no communication"
I have experience from Twitter where I used the word "die" in totally non threatening way. I was commenting how you work your whole life, try to accomplish something - and then you die. I got warning from Twitter authority that I broke their rules. They asked me if I agree with them. I tried what I always do automatically - I fawn. I thought if I click OK they will let me go. I was convinced as usual that people misunderstood me and it is a waste of time to advocate for myself. I presumed that if I click ok that they will leave me alone and whole matter will be forgotten because I really used word die in totally non-aggressive manner. What happened next - I was banned and not allowed to post.
The critical point here is that I presumed that I do not matter. They gave me a chance to defend myself - but I was so nice and good that I did not want to waste their time by me explaining silly misunderstanding. I prioritized server's time over myself - since I believe that I do not matter, and that my opinion does not matter - and this landed me into trouble.
I was given a chance to defend myself. We get that in real life, too. But we never take that chance. We take the option of not bothering other people. We prioritize their comfort over our own safety and our quality of life.
So -- when someone is openly accusing us - we should speak up the truth. Shutting up and self-censorship is bad for us and for society. Our instinct, our sensitivity and our trauma will be counterintuitive in this example. The need to make other people lives easy and comfortable is ok - but when someone confronts us with accusations - we have to stop the show there.
It does not take complex work - we simply state objective truth and be transparent. And repeat it again and again. We don't want to annoy others so we think that other people are intelligent and smart as we are (since we judge others by ourselves) and we think other people have ability to see anything in life from multiple dimensions and multiple angles and that they are smart enough to store 4 or 5 words in their memory. Nope. People are dumb. Repeat yourself. Repeat the truth and what happened.
Few months later similar thing happened on You tube or some other media - and I click the button that I protest (or deny the claim). No one raised any question, there were no interrogations. They left me alone.
This is not issue about being too nice, this is not about people pleasing. This is trauma. We were being hypnotized into mutism, self-censorship and being quiet. That is distorted part of trauma. We can be nice people and speak up in the same time. These are not mutually exclusive concepts.
BTW, I find social media such as you tube comments and twitter as great tool to brush confrontation and communication skills and communication experience. It is safe and it can be done at your own space and pace, securely.
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(28.1.2022)
I see this concept of meaning making and urge to have story telling in our head as Sandra Bullock scene in the movie Gravity (2013) - where she floats in the space and tries to grab on solid objects to find way to attach to surface instead of spinning out of control in empty space. I call this Ambiguous concept. So what happens with trauma is we develop external reference locus of control - where we find solid surface, something to grab in external, in other people - since due to toxic shame we cannot find anchor inside ourselves where self worth naturally belongs. This is how socially anxious people find anchor - in society. Since society is topsy turvy and finicky and there is paradox of truth (there is no ultimate truth and since we are not Gods - we are unable to perceive ultimate truth, our brain is physically limited in amount of ultimate knowledge) - other people are wrong, too. We try not to be wrong - but we nevertheless focus on other people, since we were traumatized into chronic self-invalidation and thus developed toxic shame - belief that I am inept and wrong by default. So what happens next is I make story making for feeling ambiguous in ambiguous life based on other people. I do not realize that I can trust myself, with mistakes and flaws included. This is totally counterintuitive and it feels unnatural due to complex trauma abuse programming. When I find anchor in myself - I accept myself to be weak, weird, stupid, embarrassed, fool, really accept this landscape that I deemed as inept and unacceptable due to internalized toxic shame. And I will no longer seek external approval which really makes me weak, weird, stupid, embarrassed and fool. From trauma point of view this is inverted.
From trauma tunnel vision, I see and perceive and explain story making as safety means it is in external validation. It is not. That is a lie, hallucination. It keeps me in prison and cycle of chronic worry and seeking guidance from other people - who are unable to know what is best for me, and it is not their job to be my god. I would find myself in social situations where I would put myself in other people shoes and perform and make decisions from what I expect other people would want me to be and do - usually this is doing nothing and being immobile, that I remove myself and shut up since I would not bother other people and waste their time or make their life experience unpleasant by myself, by my questions, by my remarks, by my needs or my complaints. I would make myself small, so that other people would have comfort and enough space, so that others are not in position of feeling discomfort due to having sharing space, food or peace of mind with me and my uncomfortable demands. I always thought this was my caprice, perk and quirk, something insignificant, and that my panic and anxiety is connected with me being "weak" and inept, as toxic shame makes story making of chronic invalidation learned from trauma. Learning the concept of fawning as reaction to stress was huge revelation. Your channel taught me this one year ago, thank you so much on this. You helped me open my eyes and consequently learned about Complex Trauma - which explained a lot that was very confusing and painful and ambiguous, something I could not explain in story making other than toxic shaming myself. "The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am then I can change." Carl Rogers
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When I learned about Complex Trauma I learned that people pleasing, being pushover, social anxiety in my case was effect of being exposed to adult hysteria and relentless criticism 24/7 when kid's brain is unable to process it any other than internalizing toxic shame (core belief I am inept, so other people are gods and I must shut up and be subservient to these gods - external reference locus of control). I learned that fawning is trauma response- This is not trait. This is not habit. This is not something you can change with press of the button. And standing up for yourself will not be easy task because my body is trained like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals into feeling guilt when I stand up for myself. My body will pump chemical and hormones that I will interpret as panic, guilt and shame - which means I will be affected, my mood will be affected by my own body - and I will not be aware of it. I will simply feel panic and guilt. And then act on this panic and guilt by fawning and apologizing even when I am correct and when I am defending myself - when I do the right thing.
I see realization that I place self worth back where it belongs - inside me, instead of other people. Which means to self-validate myself, trust my common sense, accept myself to be weird, stupid and full of mistakes and embarrassment - and know trauma will affect my mood and invent guilt to re-enact the cptsd trauma.
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"Solution? Show them you got horns." ...until you meet someone with bigger horns. Hysteria is not solution, it does not lead to solutions. Narcissism is putting on fake mask and pretend and act something I am not. It is not authentic nor genuine.
"Project power and strength non-verbally. " Paradox of confidence is when we pretend and act to be confident - we are overcompensating. Now that overcompensation makes us weak, needy and panicky - and pathetic. It does not work. Paradox is when I accept myself to be " too weak" and " too harmless" and non-confident - paradoxically I will become confident, since I self-validate myself. I see speaking out truth and your expertise and your knowledge as the best way and best solution to rudeness. I cannot speak and be authentic if I am convinced that I am weak and that I must act confident - this does not work in real life, human psyche is not built that way. What we will end up is to be mentally ill, under psychosis, hysterical and abnormal. We will become abusers ourselves. Abusers are predators, they do not create something from their own work and they do not create value. They are parasites and they host "easy targets" and "weaklings" where they find their narcissistic supply. This is not power. This is pathetic.
If the environment is constantly " ill-treatment" - this means it is toxic. It is mentally ill. It is abnormal. We do not get angry nor react to storm. We cannot control other people, urge to control other people is cognitive distortion. We cut contact with toxic environment.
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Problem is when we were convinced and hypnotized by long term narcissistic abuse that we are weak, over-reactive, that our perception is too sensitive, that we are wrong by default - toxic shame - thus if I put boundary - I will be labelled as someone who complaints all the time, I nag, I criticize and that I am weak for protesting and feeling hurt and pain, I am talking about double loop guilt tripping.
I learned this is connected to external reference locus of control, toxic shame makes me believe other people are gods, so I must please others. I must shut up and I must self-censor myself. Whereas being healthy means voicing out elephant in the room, being objective, being transparent - and alarming other person when they went too much no matter what they say or what kind of temper tantrum throw back. Also if I need to set boundaries all the time, and if I am nudged into thinking about boundaries - then environment is toxic. There is no health in building walls and monitoring the walls - it will lead to chronic worry and hyperalertness - repetition, re-enactment of trauma.
Instead of building borders - I see borders and boundaries as being honest, being authentic. If I have no evil agenda, if I do not want to intentionally hurt anyone or exploit them - I am allowed to talk, no matter how uncomfortable the truth may be.
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(29.1.2022)
(reddit) "as good practice against confrontation"
I am talking from the social anxiety point of view. It is not about going into fights with people. It is about voicing out the elephant in the room - something I would shut up and self-censor myself - but I decide now to speak it out. And then observe what happens. From socially anxious point of view - there will be apocalypse, there will be explosions and that other person is healthy normal person who will attack me. Since confrontations are much rare in real world, here you can test will your socially anxious predictions come true. Then you realize - that people who are rude - are complete morons. You learn to develop tolerance - something you cannot test in real life, since you have social anxiety.
So - you do not go to argument just for the sake of fighting with people and provoking them. You simply test your socially anxious beliefs and twisted perceptions that linger on since childhood trauma and bullying.
I use Twitter to post quotes about psychology, philosophy, CPTSD. I do not post hate words at all. I do comment news though and Jordan Peterson - and that is where I test exposure to idiots and developing tolerance to allergies from conflict and test what will happen when I stop seeking approval from others.
So far, I had amazing experience, I learned so much about logical fallacies and biases and hysterical people, how they use Ad Hominem. Before I would be focused on my panic symptoms and I would believe that other people are gods and that they use their mental energy to seek solutions and that they are using their brain power to perceive the world and anyone from multiple dimensions and multiple angles - and I was convinced this is the reason why people are hysterical and angry. Now I can see I was wrong. Difficult people are idiots and psychopaths. I no longer feel like I have to defend myself, I changed the way I perceive difficult people. I would say for people with social anxiety and CPTSD, try it out.
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(30.1.2022)
(reddit)
"Your brain scans every face for signs of danger, and you will always find a reason for their perceived deficiency. You are using literally all of your energy moment-to-moment to survive."
I've been reading and soaking up classical CBT to handle exactly those descriptions you wrote here 20 years ago - it helped to lower panic attacks - however I ended up with new trauma response instead: fawning. People pleasing, codependency, being pushover.
It is as if trauma is twisting and distorting our brain into growing in the wrong direction, like a twisted tree or flower that is unable to grow upright due to some object directly above it. You can't grow up or right, you will end up twisted in any direction you grow.
I see trauma as this object that is transferring our decisions and actions and immobility into being skewed.
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"at the bottom. They don't see or acknowledged your effort to escape" Than at the bottom we get into intrusive worry and immobility - since we are at bottom and we have resentment over people who influence our inner peace. But - Look at your words more carefully, in order to step out of your car and give it a push:
How do you define being at the bottom? I would say your definition of being at the bottom is based and linked (like money value to dollar or gold) onto other people. Other people define your bottom, other people define your fall, other people define your mood, thus they control you. You are giving them power without being aware of it.
Why would the bottom be that you do not have material gain? Why would bottom be that you have no power over other people?
This is external reference locus of control - where we trauma bond with other people. We do not believe we are worthy. We believe we are inept. We believe we have some disease or something unacceptable by others. And we solve this nonacceptance by placing our self worth in other people. Our toxic shame places our definition of anything in life through the eyes and words of other people. And we do this without being aware our locus of control is external.
When we place back self worth into ourselves, we would not base our ladder as something that is influenced by other people.
This is what Bradshaw talked about toxic shame in his book "Healing the shame that binds you". When we feel other people must guide us since we see ourselves as someone who cannot manage life, without knowing it, we reject parts of ourselves. We label certain aspects of our persona, personality and normal reactions as dangerous or disgusting. This is especially true for men - where we have plethora of our persona that we label as sissy, weak, non manly - and we allow society to guide us and define our actions, thoughts, deeds and behaviour.
This might sound all too complicated at first - but it all comes down to self-validation. That once we accept ourselves as we are - totally and without disgust and self disgust - we are able to change and do more.
When I realized this concept, it just came out naturally to warn people who are rude. Before I would shut up, since my self worth was not inside me.
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(31.1.2022)
That belief of hate is also internalized toxic shame. Toxic shame is internalized belief I am inept, worthless and I am unable to manage life - whereas other people are great, superior, better and they know how to deal with life - so I must place my self worth in other people --- which will lead to belief that other people hate me - since I will base my mood and opinions on other people and their actions and their moods and their everything how they look about anything in life. I will see other people as gods. That is trauma bonding.
Toxic shame and social anxiety are product of Complex Trauma - being exposed to unrecognized and abusive narcissistic mentally ill person while we were growing up.
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"the former is self-preservation" From whom? Are you being in life threatening situation so you have to employ life saving strategies? This advice leads to chronic worry, hypervigilance, state of hyperalertness. Also - if you are mentally unstable - this advice may trigger you to commit mass shootings if you have paranoia issues or some other mental problems, too.
With his advice about horns and self preservation : You are making yourself neurotic - if you explain yourself that you are in state of self-preservation. In real life - you will not be at ease with people, you will make yourself anxious. This is not healthy advice, it does not work in real life. If you see other people as danger, you will end up with social anxiety. That is how brain works. If you explain something that is dangerous, brain is built that way to self preserve, this goes on unconsciously. The bran already has self-preservation mechanism inside itself. You do not need to add oil to the fire. You do not need to mess with your already functional brain. What will happen next - is that brain will notice you are reacting to something you labeled as dangerous and then brain will throw more things to be scared of. Check out video with people who deal with PureOCD by Mark Freeman: "How to Deal With Intrusive Thoughts" He says: "If you stop chasing the stick, your mind will stop throwing them."
Just look at most prominent psychologist, philosophers and great book about war itself, Sun Tzu - Sun Tzu whole philosophy is about win without fighting. Do you think this is because they are cowards or stupid?
"practice till you get it right." Yes, that what brain will create - you are already caught up in OCD loop. When we decide a routine to deal with anxiety - we are creating mental illness. It is ok that you do not know this, but JP studied this during his education, he suppose to learn and know this - but he does not know that basic psychology - and yet he is using his psychological degree to appear as prominent psychologist and authority to unwitting people like you, who never studied psychology - so you cannot recognize that you are dealing with quack. So, You created a routine to deal with anxiety (some mysterious practice with horns), so brain explains this to you that you must practice it. Practice exactly what? How do you practice? What steps you practice? How to see people as enemy? Never give them a chance to talk? To think your opinion is always correct and stuff must be done only your way of highway? What if the other person is also practicing wars, explosions and drama and throwing temper tantrums? Will you compete who is the most loudest, nervous and obnoxious? You are talking about being assertive by having only your way and that you talk with people through yelling and blocking them and attacking them. That is not healthy. People are made to be interdependent. Glasser said connecting habits are: "caring, listening, supporting, contributing, encouraging, trusting, and befriending". If you want to practice anything - practice these negotiations - not your horns.
Chinese allegory of the long spoons tells us: "The allegory of the long spoons is a parable that shows the difference between heaven and hell by means of people forced to eat with long spoons. ... In hell, the people cannot cooperate, and consequently starve. In heaven, the diners feed one another across the table and are sated."
" where everyone welcomes me with open arms" Why would I base my self worth on other people anyway? This is called external reference locus of control - where I base my validation on other people - whether they are friendly or unfriendly. How can another person define you as a person? They are external from you. IF you expect other people to have open arms, this means you are giving them your own power. This means your mood and actions and thoughts will depend on other people and their opennes. That is trauma bonding. That is Stockholme Syndrome. We do this external validation because of toxic shame. And that is Jordan Peterson basis for his thesis about horns. He is full of toxic shame, and he is spreading toxic shame mentality on other people through his well covered up speech about horns. HE is creating the world of hell - where there are long spoons only to feed yourself - even though the food will not reach your mouth. Or you control other people through your horns to feed you. That is manipulation. HE is using Dark psychology, he is Machiavellianist, very clever and disguised evil person with how own agenda.
It is super easy to sell story of horns, because on surface it looks like great advice and it sells. He is making money off people instructing to become narcissists and manipulators and he is creating hell on this planet with his advice that is really Dark psychology.
Why on Earth you would not be natural? Why would you hide your natural horns? Why you just simply cannot be yourself? Why would you even try to put on a mask and pretend to have horns if you do not have them? IF you are naturally friendly person - what is wrong with that? People pleasing is trauma issue - this is not something that is your fault. People pleasing also has a good qualities, too - it is not something you must destroy, or that you will get everything in life if you stop caring and have empathy for other people and have the ability to step in other people's shoes. Why would it be so difficult to just be natural yourself, come as you are, be authentic, be honest, be on par with other people? If you feel like someone is so irritating and obnoxious - why would you pretend to be ok with their rudeness? You do not need horns to express your annoyance. You do not need to force drama and hysteria. Why would it be so hard to express yourself naturally?
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"Leave this area better than you find it" That is where social anxiety is coming from, the urge to leave something better, where it is impossible due to external factor - socializing with difficult people who mess everything up.
Social anxiety is inability to talk, you can't talk due to social anxiety. Social anxiety is deep ingrained toxic shame, believing I am inept - while other people are superior gods - this self censorship and mutism.
Social anxiety is being stuck in inactivity, immobility, pessimism and catastrophizing, personalizations and plethora of other cognitive distortions. Being stuck with intrusive worry cycle loops instead of having ability to shift on task at hand. Social anxiety is part of trauma - CPTSD.
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Social anxiety is not about being scared to talk to people. That is mild shyness issue. Social anxiety is much more deeper and sinister. IT is rooted in trauma, CPTSD.
"We want nervousness to go away" Why? Why should we observe ability to process life and people on deep level as pathology? Elaine Aron said:
Never underestimate the power of simply acknowledging to yourself that you are overaroused. It is the greatest secret to getting the arousal under control. You can tolerate high levels of stimulation. Arousal does not have to be anxiety, so do not accept the label "anxiety prone". Arousal can just be overstimulation. The Highly Sensitive Person, Elaine N. Aron
Sometimes in your past you entered a social situation (usually overstimulating to begin with) and felt that you failed. Others said you did something wrong or did not seem to like you, or you failed to meet your own standards in the situation. Maybe you were already overaroused, having used your excellent imagination to envision all that might go wrong. Overarousal is not always due to fear. Thinking it is fear can make you feel shy when you are not. The Highly Sensitive Person, Elaine N. Aron
You placed large portion of your video about talking with people - as if this is the central problem.
This is what classical CBT got wrong - they based their early 1990s social anxiety research and they concluded that panic symptoms are the worst thing in the world and you must talk to people. They did not know at the time - but they based their research on people with mild shyness, not on social anxiety.
The thing is - people with social anxiety have communication skills - in fact they are excellent at it. They already have it inside them. However due to trauma (being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 during growing up and being exposed to adult hysteria when child brain is unable to process it other than internalizing self hate as toxic shame) they now have triggers and flashbacks in social situations. This is causing amygdala hijacking and external reference locus of control - where I would see other people as gods, competent - and in the same time I am worthless and inept to make any decisions in life so I must trauma bond with others. This will leave me scared and silent as after-effect. This silence and fear is not personality trait. It is not habit. It is not perk, quirk of self-victimization. This is trauma. This is serious issue - where long term exposure to narcissistic abuse causes brain injury.
"exposing yourself, being uncomfortable" This was classical CBT approach to social anxiety - and I applied it to myself. IT helped to remove panic symptoms on surface - and it allowed to feel somewhat comfortable. However - social anxiety did not go away. And I replaced my immature ego defenses with people pleasing and fawning and being pushover. Avoidance still stuck with me - and I avoided people in any other situations and been stuck with driving phobia. The belief that I am inept and that other people hold ultimate truth about anything in life stayed stuck since this is trauma.
Counterintuitively - social anxiety requires you to put on border. To filter out toxic people. To recognize red flags and remove people from your life who are abusing you in any way.
Classical CBT has grown , it has upgraded itself- There is third way of CBT. It comes down to Humanistic Psychology - the idea is that you accept yourself as you are in order to squelch anxiety. It is also found in PureOCD techniques where you accept your intrusive thoughts but shift your focus on another task. Social anxiety is having external reference locus of control. So breaking trauma bonding means , trusting myself so that my self worth brings itself back where it belongs - inside me. This means - that I self-validate myself. Paradoxically, when we accept ourselves as we are - we are able to change. If we deny our rejected parts - we will be making ourselves mentally unstable.
This means, to accept myself if I do not feel like talking with other people. To gather knowledge about social anxiety - so that I know that other people do not hate me, that this is trauma issue - so I can try to talk with people - only if I am willing to experiment to see what will happen when I am naturally me. Forcing myself to talk with strangers - will lead to people pleasing and missing red flags. Nice,friendly open people with high empathy and sensitivity and ability to see anything in life from multiple points of angles and from another shoes - will produce effects of anxiety. People pay a lot of money to learn empathy skills - we already have these naturally inside us. Why would we destroy it - just to prove we can talk with anyone? Why would we talk with anyone? Open, nice, and friendly people attract manipulators, bullies and narcissists - because these predatory types are parasiting over people who are desperate for warmth, friendships and being normal human being who likes to socialize. We will attract narcissists like moth to a flame. Our trauma and toxic shame will make us bond with them.
So classical CBT advice to beat anxiety by forcing ourselves to be friendly - will not work, it will make things worse. Socially anxious people have empathy - these are superior communications skills. These are simply buried under the surface, just like water on Mars, due to Complex trauma.
Instead of focusing on our symptoms and pathologizing our natural reactions - such as not speaking with strangers or someone who feels scary - will make us open borders and invite emotional vampires in our world. And then this will make additional neurosis and additional social anxiety on the top of present one.
quote from highly sensitive refuge: "What Are the Effects of Chronic Invalidation? due to their kind, giving nature, some HSPs may attract narcissists and their need for admiration, validation, attention, and control. When you experience chronic invalidation, it’s hard to decipher a healthy and appropriate form of emotional expression versus something that’s not. You may find you normalize invalidating experiences without even realizing it"
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I see it like this: My mindshift would be in direction of DBT and Humanistic psychology - where I accept myself as I am and then work on that.
"The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am then I can change." Carl Rogers
"DBT teaches the skills to accept and tolerate distress and to manage disturbing or provocative emotional stimulation. The process involves gaining behavioral control, then experiencing rather than silencing emotional stress—discussing and accepting past traumatic experiences, and tackling selfblame and dysfunctional thoughts."
Thus I would look at problem with social anxiety is not evaluating. Evaluating would be me being Highly sensitive - thus I am evaluating - this is natural reaction - to evaluate deeply. This is part of deep stimuli process. I do not pathologize it. I would look at it in neutral instead of making myself into panic attack for noticing more details than other people.
What problem is therefore is not me deeply processing what is happening - the problem is trauma response: fawning. As I understand Complex trauma, DBT applies to trauma as well. So to be boldly authentic - is paradox, as Carl Rogers said. That I accept myself as I am. That I accept my mistakes and flaws. Then I will be able to be honest and authentic, instead of fawning and people pleasing other people. The paradox is to validate myself - no matter what I do. IF I am kind, nice person, if I have no evil agenda to exploit other people - I should not be hard on myself and expect to be super great person who knows just the right amount of being assertive and forgiving and agreeable - then I do not have to worry anymore about how I come up, if I know that social confidence is not because of other people - it is because of me. So that I no longer monitor how I come up.
Anything other than self-validation leads to chronic worry, hypervigilance and being hyper alert.
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I think she means about pathologizing social anxiety part. "Social anxiety can be demoralizing to self esteem" Social anxiety is after effect of Complex Trauma. This effect is not choice. This is not trait. This is not habit. This is not persona. This is not something shameful. Immature ego defense mechanisms are natural brain defense system that allowed us to survive difficult and highly abusive people who traumatized us in times when child brain was unable to process it or protects itself.
All symptoms you are describing are symptoms of CPTSD, not social anxiety itself. Social anxiety falls under umbrella of Complex trauma.
Worry weak before event - this is hypervigilance. Check out Polyvagal Theory - click on google images to see what it is. Hpyeralrtness state. This comes because person has toxic shame and external reference locus of control - ingrained belief that other people are superior and better while we are inept and unable to make decisions about anything in life unless it is super safe, super perfect and where other people cannot criticize us. This happens due to trauma bonding and Stocholm Syndrome - all parts of complex trauma.
Reaction to unplanned social contacts - cardio - why not look it in neutral? Trembling is trauma being trapped inside our body. If we look at it as danger and try to stifle it - we keep trauma stay stuck inside it. Advice would be counterintuitive - to shake your hands even more, like a wet dog drying itself - shaking. Dogs shake when they perceive danger. Naturally they release the stress and trauma by shaking. We, due to society that pathologize sentient sensitive and normal friendly people - we try to appear strong and narcissistic by putting on a mask of superiority - which leads to additional mental illness (by becoming abusers ourselves - this prolonging abuse onto next generation).
Quote from HSP book: "It is important not to confuse arousal with fear. And often we think that our arousal is due to fear. We do not realize that our heart may be pounding from the sheer effort of processing extra stimulation. I really suggest trying to view it as neutral. HSPs must spend far more time trying to invent solutions to human problems just because they are more sensitive to hunger, cold, insecurity, exhaustion, and illness. Since most non-HSPs do not seem to enjoy thinking about such things, they assume we must be unhappy doing all that pondering. Spend enough time putting yourself out there in the world - your sensitivity is not something to be feared. Carl Jung believed that when highly sensitive patients has experienced a trauma, they had been unusually affected and so developed a neurosis. Preferring toughness, the culture sees our trait as something difficult to live with, something to be cured. HSPs differ mainly in their sensitive processing of subtle stimuli. This is your most basic quality. The way to come to tolerate and then enjoy being involved in the world is by being in the world. But what is fun? Be careful not to let the non-HSPs in your world define that for you. For many HSPs, fun is reading a good book or gardening. Strategies for Overarousal: Witness your overarousal. Love your overarousal. Elaine Aron "The Highly Sensitive Person""
Instead of beating social anxiety - we should change and shift mindset into DBT and Humanistic psychology - of self validation. That we accept ourselves as we are, instead of putting labels of shame and blame and guilt upon us.
Why would narcisssitic society be correct in pathologizing calmness, sensitivity, ability to place ourselves in other people shoes and not being ego-centric?
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For me personally, it never helped me to hear the advice that I should say no. It never helped me to understand that people take advantage of me. Neither information to set healthy boundaries- I never knew what that is.
Only later I learned that boundaries are not walls. It is not blocking people and it is not about spending money, time and energy in blocking people. It is really about self worth. In psychology - I learned that when we have internalized toxic shame (ingrained belief I am inept and unable to be perfect and without mistakes to be validated) - then my psyche will remove my self worth onto other people - and this is done without me being aware of this process. This is called external reference locus of control. And as you said, it is related to childhood trauma (CPTSD), where I learned I am no accepted because I make mistakes, that this inability to be perfect makes me inept to handle life. So without being aware, based on toxic shame, I view my self worth through other people. Thus I trauma bond with other people without being aware of it - and this comes off as people pleasing, being pushover and fawning. I see it that I live my life through other people: I believe other people know the ultimate truth, that other people emotions are valid while mine must be synchronized with their emotions - which means when they are angry, this is my fault and my responsibility to solve their problems and to fix others and to fix other people problems - because there is my self worth - I am living my life through other people. IT is because I do not have self worth inside me. My locus of control is external it is not intrinsic. To put it back inside me means that I accept myself as I am, that I am authentic. Having boundaries thus is not physical blockage or wall - it is my honest words, voicing out the elephant in the room, disagreeing with someone because they do not align with my common sense and what I perceive as right or wrong.
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What is so horrible wrong about spreadin' happiness? :D What kind of world would be if everyone was nervous, angry, refusing to cooperate? Yelling and screaming? Living in hysteria and abuse? Shouting, hurting other people, traumatizing others?
Chinese allegory of the long spoons tells us: "The allegory of the long spoons is a parable that shows the difference between heaven and hell by means of people forced to eat with long spoons. ... In hell, the people cannot cooperate, and consequently starve. In heaven, the diners feed one another across the table and are sated."
"Start with little effort - decrease, say no" What if you get fired? What if you are in toxic job and toxic country - where you cannot get another job? What then?
"Don't overthink" This is intrusive thoughts PureOCD issue. This is not trait, or habit or something to be ashamed, or something you can stop with a press of button. People pleasing is sign of trauma, CPTSD (not the same as PTSD).
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Nailed it!
External locus of control = people pleasing, trauma bonding, fawning.
Intrinsic locus of control = self worth being inside me.
I realized I was not able to place self worth inside me due to toxic shame internalized inside me. I believed that I am inept, while other people are superior and they hold the ultimate truth about anything in life - so I must fix them, worship them (through the eyes of me being inferior and whatever other person says or do is my command and I must obey, never ever doubt them that they might be manipulative for example). And since a lot of people have different opinions and totally different stance - I ended up with social anxiety, avoidance, self-censorship - since that is the best way to please everybody - where my self worth was externalized.
Bringing back self worth inside me means self-validation - that I am ok with mistakes, flaws, rejected parts of me (what I label as weak), that I am ok with being embarrassed.
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"Now how do I get out oft the rut? I've been stuck for years. "
3 months later, and I've learn even more. The stuck is not only due to brain injury (being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse). The abuse also trained our body - so our body releases chemicals and hormones - that regulate that we feel good when we are stuck - when we do not move. The body will pump adrenaline when we move, when we do the opposite from trauma. Our body is working against ourselves. Descartes talked about this mind.body dualism. Voltaire also, Voltaire said: "Man was born to live either in the convulsions of misery, or in the lethargy of boredom."
Voltaire suggests cultivating your own garden. Translated in modern language, this is what Humanistic psychology is teaching and DBT. It is about self-validation. That you accept yourself as you are and then build on that.
"The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am then I can change." Carl Rogers
Stockdale paradox says that we accept that we are in unfavorable position but still have hope and work with what you are left to work with. It is about not giving up.
Trauma and being stuck is indication we have rejected parts - something that we reject inside ourselves - and we are not living our full potential. For men, this is usually very often connected with ideal and idea and label what is suppose to be masculine. And we reject anything that is perceived as weak inside us. But we need all parts of ourselves to operate. We will be forced to make decisions - no matter in what situation we are, and no matter how undone we are. I would start rely on common sense.
This means, do things that you know are necessary for you - don't wait for your fear to pass. Don't wait to feel strong enough, or masculine enough. As I said, being stuck is being stuck in worry, intrusive thoughts, we try to solve some problem in our head over which we have no influence or control over. So to get unstuck is to focus on what needs to be done, what I would forget to do - because I would be stuck with intrusive worry. If you self-validate yourself, this means being ok with yourself no matter what mistakes and flaws you are making - you can come up with things, chores and tasks that you need to do - then do them. It comes to the point that we stop doing what anxiety tells us to do - and instead we operate and bring decisions based on what our inner knowledge tells us is required to do.
For example, I know I have fat belly - I know I have to do jogging. My anxiety will tell me - that I post pone it. So my inner knowledge is - go jogging, no matter what excuse. And then do it. Or, my anxiety tells me that I must spend time watching news - over which I have no control. Instead I might explore social anxiety information, or information about Complex trauma or narcissistic abuse.
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1) if we label nice - we may pathologize part of ourselves that are natural and normal - this we will create mental illness by not being nice, or by being focused on not being nice 2) being too nice is not something you can change at the press of button - it is sign of complex trauma - being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse in childhood - thus internalizing toxic shame and external reference locus of control. --
(2.2.2022)
Great tip. But I would also work in the direction of self-validation and knowing that sensitive people are prone to examine everything in life from multiple points of views and angles. This means, not to fight worrying. Also, if there is Complex Trauma, worrying is part of trauma process being trapped inside the body- so it is stuck inside. Instead of worrying and worrying about worrying and having defense strategies against anxiety, the more productive way would be focusing on unhelpful strategies and trying out the alternatives and experiments and counterintuitive actions (such as making mistakes deliberately if I am perfectionist) - which may be possible with "what if it all works out"
I also see leaving toxic environment, planning to leave - and recognizing toxic situations as beneficial, too. ---
It is not comparison. It is trauma bonding. Observing other people as gods. External reference locus of control due to toxic shame internalized (deep held belief I am inept and other people are competent to manage life). Thus brain created trauma bonding with other people.
Self confidence is paradox - whatever it takes to make you feel better about yourself is over-compensation. It is effect of inferiority complex. Paradox of confidence is that I accept myself as I am - no matter how I look, without putting any conditions to fulfill.
Since trauma bonding is result of toxic shame - it cannot be stopped by itself. It is about accepting myself as I am with flaws and mistakes.
People are not harsh on themselves. The inferiority complex is the result of not being harsh on yourself - it is the best solution to toxic shame that says I am unworthy - trying to find worth in other people and their commands, opinions and their validation.
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Stanford Prison Experiment shown that people do fawn - especially those who stay in situation - prison is somewhere where you cannot escape. Experiment of prison - the need to get payed makes you stay in prison. For example - living in corrupt country where everyone is nervous and aggressive, without punishment because they have connections to keep them on that position of power, where mobbing is not sanctioned: So fawn will provide me with safety (having home , not being homeless), finances (having money to pay necessities). In different way would be - leaving the job where I am abused - but this is not alternative in corrupt, poor country. But perhaps this is too extreme example. Maybe if I try to be rude back to people who are rude - maybe I would not get fired. How much rudeness and to what degree. If I always shut up and self-censor myself - perhaps I never tried out speaking out my opinions and warning and alarming the other person to monitor their way of communication. Yeah, this is something I never experimented with. Until I learned about fawning last year. It opened my eyes that I have alternatives other than fawning.
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So true. This is something that resonates with me. I had colleague at work who was being friendly but every once in a while she would throw temper tantrums. Also she presented herself as very sensitive and emotional and trustworthy person and someone who is victimized but in the same time she talked about her anger issues where she would lose control and hurt others, she would label me as weak and that I must yell and scream at her - then she would respect other people when they are totally rude to her. Otherwise, she said, she would exploit them and be mean to them. I had all red flags that something is wrong here - but I allowed to befriend with her because she was kind sometimes and she would do things that were kind. What I did not know at the time - is that I had my issue of external reference locus of control due to toxic shame internalized inside me - that I seek external validation from other people. Especially is they were kind - this was their ticket that they were allowed to do whatever they want and I would not object or cut contact. So the problem was me - my toxic shame, belief that I am inept and belief that other people are gods, competent and better than me. Only when I learned about Complex trauma - that I adopted toxic shame and fawning as mechanisms to deal with people - I realized this is trauma bonding and I can place self worth back where it belongs - inside me. This means , being ok with whoever I am, with my mistakes.
And in the same time, as I learned about Complex trauma and my emotions - I also learned about narcissists and their mechanisms how they operate. So I learned about Borderliners - they seek conflict, they are half baked narcissists because they exploit empathy in very narrow and agenda way - and this completely explained this colleague. Back then I did not know traits of Borderliners. I did not recognize red flags and traits of such people. I only focused on unrecognized trauma and triggers within me, to seek external validation. So I might cut contact with negative and toxic people - but trauma bonding would bring those people back - since I seek approval from others due to toxic shame. I would keep stuck with those people and I would automatically be drawn to them. My need to be approved and validated by other people was the real issue. Not toxic drama queens out there. From my ego-centric perspective it seems as if other people are problem and I have to cut them - yet not cut them out if they are good and nice to me some of the time. If they do favors and kind acts some of the time - and being jerks 90 percent of the time.
I learned about toxic shame long time ago, I knew I had it. However I did not understand it until I learned about Complex Trauma. With CPTSD, I could place toxic shame in the right position - to realize I can trust myself and my opinions. Before I would believe that other people hold the ultimate truth about anything and I must trust them without ever doubting them they might be Machiavellians (having exploitative hidden agenda behind their helpful favors).
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People pleasing is not intrinsically bad or negative. It is problem when it becomes automatic response to anything and anyone. People pleasing allows us to make friendships, diplomacy, avoid unnecessary drama and explosions, to go beyond shadow of doubt and give people another chance, instead of immediately cutting contact with anyone who appears scary.
I learned I feel guilty when saying no - due to Complex trauma, where I learned to fawn as mechanism to survive narcissistic abuse. So my body is now trained like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals to feel guilty when I am not fixing aggressive people - the body pumps adrenaline and affects mood to feel guilt and shame when I do the correct things. Such as being honest and not shutting up.
I see being authentic, speaking truth, not self-censoring myself, voicing out the elephant in the room as behaviour that thwarts automatic people pleasing. I am not focused on people pleasing - I am just me. I learned I am afraid being me due to internalized toxic shame, also rooted in CPTSD trauma. Toxic shame being ingrained belief I am inept and other people are correct and I must be subservient to others and see others as gods, where any word is my command and whatever they say is ultimate truth which must not be doubted and questioned.
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(goodreads)
Classical CBT based its faulty social anxiety research in early 1990s based on people with mild shyness. Thus their research was based on people who never had social anxiety to begin with and advice is misleading. One of the greatest faulty results is conviction that social anxiety means being focused on yourself and your symptoms. That is why shy people are doing. Social anxiety means being totally focused on other people - being hypervigilant about external threat and how others perceive you.
Upgraded CBT is DBT, aligned with Humanistic Therapy, humanistic psychology where you self validate yourself, where you accept your symptoms as they are, without going in civil war with yourself.
Classical CBT stifles panic symptoms - however the most detrimental by-product is fawning, people pleasing and becoming pushover, being unable to voice your opinion. Thus the book is also missing information about toxic shame, external reference locus of control, Activation behavioral therapy, trauma bonding, PureOCD and Complex Trauma. No information about Polyvagal Theory, no information about amygdala hijacking. OCD is mentioned as rituals - no intrusive worry at all information. The book mentions OCD rituals, and then later on suggest breathing rituals - teaching us to form OCD. Any response to anxiety in form of action to prevent anxiety leads to OCD. The fact you need some reaction and mechanism and rituals to calm anxiety is the problem itself. This signals the brain that there is some unknown danger and brain will create more things to be afraid, keeping you stuck in chronic worry and hypervigilance. PTSD is mentioned as there is no CPTSD.
There is advice not to intake sugar, coffee, alcohol - not taking it and still social anxiety present. So it does not help, this advice is useless. There is no information about Elaine Aron "HSP" that over-arousal may be the form of deep stimuli process - and if we label it as disorder, we create additional anxiety, neurosis and we are pathologizing our natural ways of processing reality - that are different than most, (dumb) people.
Mediation, yoga - all great - but this is not medical response for anxiety. It will create more anxiety - because if you do not calm down you will be worried you are horrible disfigured person who can't be relaxed with mediation and yoga --- and or you will waste your time, energy and money on getting resources in these - which will not help anyway, since anxiety is trauma based and stimuli based. It is not a wart you can cut off or burn and wish it will go away by itself.
ABC, thought records - tried it all out from 1996 - 2002. It does not help. It creates more anxiety and it created people pleasing and inability to stand up for myself. Since I would never tackle toxic shame that is producing all the distortions in the first place.
Physical - exercising - I have been jogging since 2012 on regular basis. It is great for body and to have some dopamine, however it does not make social anxiety go away. Trauma is being trapped inside the body. If we ignore it, it will not vanish by itself simply by ignoring or performing rituals.
"Get some help" - most medical resources do not recognize CPTSD, PureOCD and they have no idea what emotional dysregulation is. There is no help out there available.
"Read" - what I have noticed is that faulty and incomplete advice is the same as deliberate wrong advice. It leads you to nowhere and you are stuck, and you have no idea why and what is the problem. Problem is that guidance from others cannot help us. Psychology is here to instruct us how to make guidance system inside us. Piaget said if someone tells us how to do something, it takes away our ability to create it on our own. It is ok to give correct information - and the book without Complex Trauma that deals with trauma such as social anxiety is incorrect source of information that keeps you stuck in labyrinth.
"Write your goals down" - toxic shame prevents you from having self worth inside you, so you do not have goals. You have other people and their instructions, opinions and thoughts that you fix and take care of through codependency.
"Practice your social skills" People with social anxiety have excellent social skills- this is myth created by early CBT research based on shy people who never had social anxiety to begin with. Person with social anxiety would never expose himself to any treatment and evaluation. If they do - they no longer have social anxiety. Skills are buried under the surface, just like water on Mars. It is covered with toxic shame and external validation and seeking approval from others, self-censorship and shutting up (mutism).
"Stop avoiding" If you stop defense system - person with social anxiety will replace it with another disorder. Such as codependency and people pleasing. Missing red flags and entering in close relationships with sociopaths such as Borderliners and narcissists.
"Stop the negative thoughts" Mark Freeman You tube channel about OCD is great resource that tells us when we try to stop thoughts - we create them more. We train our brain to chase intrusive thoughts and to produce them more. Accepting negative thoughts is the only way out. Self-validation, being ok with myself as I am and building on that.
"Maintaining a mental sharpness " What sharpness is your amygdala is hijacked? The brain is operating from fear part of the brain. There is no way you put unreasonable expectations on person who is operating from lizard part of brain. This is such detrimental advice. Books like these about social anxiety kept me in social anxiety.
For some unknown and totally mysterious reason - this is very hard to tell about social anxiety: Toxic shame is hallucination. Burst it. It keeps your self worth external from you. Once your self worth is outside of you - you are unable to operate from within your common sense, you operate through the extension of other people around you. Google: locus of control.
Complex trauma - social anxiety is brains way to deal with narcissistic abuse and making balance with our kindness and soul inside - which results in social anxiety. Fawn is 4F response to stress. Fight or flight are not the only stress responses. Google: CPTSD.
Emotional dysregulation means there are triggers out there that will mess up with our brain and responses, putting us in chronic worry and hypervigilance. Google: Polyvagal Theory.
Doubt others. There is no absolute truth. Toxic shame tells us we are worthless and thus other people are correct and able to handle life. Wrong! People are full of biases and logical fallacies. Google: Descartes Evil demon hypthesis. Start to doubt your self and other people. We must distrust what anxiety is telling us. Anxiety has credibility of car salesman.
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(goodreads)
Horrible book. A lot of babbling without any point. CBT and brain - and no word about how long term narcissistic abuse cause brain damage and brain injury.
Perfectionism is mentioned as if we invented it ourselves, as if it was not implanted by narcissists and toxic environment exposure.
Inner critic is explained as if we need to go to civil was with ourselves.
The book is called "BE yourself" and chapter title is "replace".
Just as any American self-help books there are a lot of boring and long winding stories, it is obnoxious. As if all situations in life will be exactly the same as these simple and unrealistic examples.
"Fake it till you make it" - the book is called how to be yourself, and there is advice to be fake.
Chapter about "be yourself" is list of boring anecdotes about Johnny Carson.
"Every behavior sends a message to others. People with social anxiety can forget that;" "We accidentally send the message of I’m aloof, I’m distant, I’m snobby, I’m prickly" What are you talking about? Social anxiety is fawning and people pleasing. It is being focused on other people and fixing others. If I was focused on myself, it would be schizoid and narcissist or borderliner.
"social anxiety is fundamentally a distortion: it’s a mistaken belief that something is wrong with you and everyone will notice. " That is called toxic shame? Why you do not mention the real name, so people can google it? Without real and correct path - you are keeping people trapped in cave and labyrinth.
"But sometimes people watch their videos and notice they do look weird." So the book about being yourself tells you not to be yourself. To put a mask.
"came across as being open and friendly" So advice to people with social anxiety who fawn and thus attract all kinds of manipulators, narcissists, borderliners, exploiters is to be more open and without borders? The book called be yourself tells you to be unnatural and to be smiley and happy and cheerie even if people abuse you?
"perfectionism is about never being good enough" Nope. Perfectionism is after result of trauma and being exposed to unrecognized mentally ill person while we were growing up. Complex Trauma was so hard to mention and direct people with social anxiety in the right direction?
"Perfectionists have unrealistic criteria for success" And yet, the book tells us that we must be open and friendly to everyone without filters and red flags noticing, and to fake myself until I over-compensate inferiority complex with fake confidence.
"All you have to be is kind" 1. People with social anxiety are already kind, they are extremely kind and thus people take advantage of them 2. Be yourself is the name of book, and it keeps on giving us weight of what we suppose to be
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(reddit)
But that is it - social anxiety is part of CPTSD. Unfortunately this is not very much mentioned in resources. Especially when there are no official resources, since CPTSD is not officially recognized by mental health industry. We are left on our own to discover it, we are like pioneers at this moment.
Another aspect that I see commonly not being connected is Narcissistic abuse - exposure to psychological abuse. On one side I see CPTSD focused on symptoms - and on the other side I see Narcissistic abuse survivors ranting about toxic people - without connecting to brain damage that narcissistic abuse causes and thus emotional dysregulation.
Another similar missing connection was between people who suffer from people pleasing, not connecting it to PureOCD intrusive thoughts and vice versa. So people pleasers were given set of rituals - which in turn create intrusive and chronic worry because that is how brain works - you tell it something is scary, it will create more of it. And on the other hand people with PureOCD get advice to go out and be open to people - which leads to being open to narcissists, and people pleasing them.
It is as if we are missing Rosetta stone that needs to connect these concepts together.
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(reddit)
Yeah! I wasted 20 years on Social anxiety resources without dealing with anxiety. Because most of official medical resources along with self help gurus - they all focus on symptoms, since initial CBT research was connected to healing social anxiety by exposure and dealing with symptoms - however even though it calms panic at certain level, this CBT therapy trick leads to people pleasing issues and fawning.
I have listened to CBT lecture made in 1990s - and I've concluded that the whole CBT was based on false experiment with people who had not social anxiety to begin with. They based their techniques and therapy on people with mild shyness - and thus produce silly advice such as "focus on other people". People with social anxiety are already focused very much on other people! I learned CBT upgraded itself, there is third wave of CBT now, they finally understood what Elaine Aron was talking in her book about HSP: that overarousal if labeled as fear will create more additional neurosis. Todays techniques of new CBT are related to DBT and Humanistic therapies - where individual is being taught to self-validate and build on that. This means, instead of fighting panic symptoms - to accept them fully, not fighting them and face fear anyways.
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(reddit)
I am trying my best over you tube. I put comments, I think I sound like troll there. There are so many unhelpful and misleading advice about social anxiety, and people pleasing. I learned the wrong unintentional advice is as much as damaging as deliberate wrong advice, perhaps even moreso. You listen to it, you waste time and energy - and money - and you do not move. You stay stuck in cave or labyrinth and think you are weirdo that cannot heal - and what it is - you have simply given totally wrong information.
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(reddit)
CPTSD is definitely connected to Social anxiety. In resources, instead of social anxiety they use words such as "withdrawal" and "isolation".
From the book "Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving" by Pete Walker - he said: "Cptsd is a more severe form of Post-traumatic stress disorder. It is delineated from this better known trauma syndrome by five of its most common and troublesome features: emotional flashbacks, toxic shame, self-abandonment, a vicious inner critic and social anxiety." "If you are stuck viewing yourself as worthless, defective, or despicable, you are probably in an emotional flashback. This is typically also true when you are lost in self-hate and virulent self-criticism."
On the other hand, people with social anxiety are given information in official resources and both via self help gurus - that there might have been trauma that caused social anxiety- but this is unclear and non relevant and you cannot do anything to heal it anyways - so you must focus on your panic symptoms and try to solve panic attacks as prime directive. This information and advice is horribly wrong. It leads to ignoring the trauma - which will grow, and calming down the panic symptoms leaves you open to people pleasing, fawning (one of 4F trauma responses) as substitute to deal with people who remind you of original trauma. (For me it is hysterical violent and erratic people).
What was huge revelation last year is concept of Fawning. Fawning is not ever mentioned in any Social anxiety resources. You cannot read nothing about people pleasing and being pushover in social anxiety resources. Whilst CPTSD places fawning in the prime spot - as one of 4F trauma response. Social anxiety focused only on fight and flight response - and their explanations are vague, they put it in concept of some cavemen, and the reader is bored by the explanation. So Social anxiety resources totally ignore the Emotional dysregulation, trauma bonding and body being trained like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals to pump out chemicals and hormones in situations when you need to stand up for yourself. Social anxiety and CBT focus only on panic attack symptoms as if it is my fault to have panic attacks - as if there are not manipulators out there.
I learned that social anxiety is like litmus test - being able to sniff out exploiters and psychopaths - my heart start to race and I feel over-aroused - I learned this is reaction to the evil - narcissists. Somehow official social anxiety resources ignore psychopaths and sociopaths who are causing abuse. They are practically blaming the individual for being abused. This is very prominent with alpha male channels where you are explained you must be strong to be macho man, otherwise you are weak. In a lightened version, this is classical CBT therapy for social anxiety. Totally wrong and very much detrimental.
Third wave CBT is more in line with CPTSD healing - they are talking about DBT and Humanistic therapy - where you are taught to self-validate. Trauma is about not being valued and validated. So we seek validation. With toxic shame our self worth is exported onto other people - we seek external validation, I learned this is called External reference locus of control. This concept is unheard of in Social anxiety resources. When I realize toxic shame is hallucination, I can place back self worth inside me, where it naturally belongs- and this means being ok with my mistakes, flaws and being undone. This is something that social anxiety resources are missing in large part they are still carrying faulty classical CBT approach. For example. Jordan Peterson has social anxiety lecture based on classical CBT where he gives advice for social anxiety that you zoom onto other people. With CPTSD I learned we are already zoomed onto other people - due to trauma bonding and external validation. Toxic shame prevents myself to trust myself. So psyche will export itself onto other people and live life through the others. This is social anxiety in its core - being unable to live and manage your life -and you feel emotions of other people as if their opinion and criticism is the worst thing in the world.
CPTSD, narcissistic abuse and social anxiety are intertwined. I do not know why this is not obvious to people. It was not obvious to me because I learned about CPTSD only a year ago. I've read tons of social anxiety books since 1996, I've tried any advice there is - nothing helped, until I learned about CPTSD and new concepts that explained why I react and think this way.
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"deeply internalized sense of our own lack of worth." "shame loop, where I constantly doubt myself and think of myself as a failure and a burden"
That is definition of Toxic shame. This is Toxic shame.
Toxic shame makes us export our self worth in other people - we see other people as gods and we live our live through their eyes and their emotions. Then their criticism hurt so much. At the root of social anxiety is irrational fear of other people's criticism, real or imagined. Trauma made us trained to release chemicals and hormones when we try to do the correct things - such as believing in myself, standing up for myself - adrenaline will make me panic, and it will affect my mood and thinking process - that I am guilty, it will produce emotions of irrational guilt. This is being trained like Pavlovian dog or circus animal - to perform tricks when triggered or during flashbacks or anything that resembles to original trauma. But from my perspective this will not seem like amygdala hijacking. I will not be aware that I am going through Polyvagal Theory chart of chronic worry and hypervigilance. From my perspective - due to tunnel vision and toxic shame (ingrained belief I am unworthy and inept) - it will seem to me like I did something wrong, I am guilty automatically no matter what happened, that I must shut up and self censor - and that I must people please and fawn. Not to rock the boat and never voice out the elephant in the room. From my perspective this will be automatic behavior, and my panic will appear as quirk, perk or caprice - something not related to trauma nor social anxiety. Toxic shame will make me zoom onto other people, especially if they resemble to original trauma (someone rude, obnoxious, loud, unfair, aggressive and violent) and toxic shame will make me observe and perceive other people as gods. I will automatically withdraw and do anything to make other people happy and do everything so that life is convenient to them - but in the same time not to be too obvious, because some people told me I am pushover, so I will mask it as much as I can. And since I have been told by some people that I must be strong and macho, I will also try to mask it under I don't care attitude and appear as frozen. All the time - other people are controlling me and I am not aware of this. Other people are controlling my mood, my opinions, my decisions -everything and I am not aware of it, as if I am under hypnosis. That is CPTSD and social anxiety at its core. Having brain fog, having veil over my face where I do not see what is happening, as if it is looking reality through the gaze - and since I cannot see clearly - I rely and lean on other people to guide me. Because of toxic shame, I believe other people hold ultimate truth to anything in life and I do not question it , and never doubt that they might be wrong. This makes me excellent target for narcissists, borderliners, exploiters, emotional vampires, bullies - someone who is open, friendly, quit and appears as "without spine" - as one bully described me at work. I will be aware I have people pleasing issues but I will have no idea about external reference locus of control and trauma bonding - since no one told me about CPTSD. And official resources about social anxiety and people pleasing do not mention any of concepts mentioned in CPTSD resources.
The minute I realized trauma bonding concept - I connected it to toxic shame - and I was able to scream back at abuser and defend myself. I have no idea why is this so hard to connect and give people the real and correct information.
I've read Bradshaws book in 1997 - I knew about toxic shame, but he never ever mentions that toxic shame is hallucination. He made toxic shame into invincible entity that you must perform brain surgery techniques to get rid of it. All I needed to hear is that it is illusion created by abuse and programming from exposure to narcissistic psychological abuse in childhood and toxic environment.
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(reddit)
Yeah, OCD is another breakthrough. I have made self diagnosis in 2009 and I scored a high score for OCD. However- once again, the same issue as with social anxiety. The information out there lacks information about PureOCD.
It was only in 2015 that I learned about PureOCD. Up until then I considered OCD that it is connected to performing rituals. I never done anything like that so I ignored OCD as quirk. I might have check sometimes if I closed the door - but I really sometimes missed to lock the doors - as I know now , it is due to emotional dysregulation and brain injury caused by long term narcissistic abuse -where your brain is stuck in intrusive worry and pessimism so you forget to perform small tasks and chores that you usually have enough time and energy to do.
Anyways, I learned about PureOCD in 2015 after I noticed I have serious issues with social anxiety, it got worse and worse - so I collected all the books I have purchased until then - I highlighted sentences, I marked them all (I had somewhat 50 or even more books more or less) and I have scanned them to see what advice resonates with me the most. I took me couple of months to do this.
And two words climbed on top: intrusive thoughts.
Once I googled it, I got to PureOCD, where I learned that OCD can be related to thinking, worrying. Mark Freeman got amazing You tube channel where he explains intrusive thoughts and OCD - and you learn techniques such as ERP and ACT. And you learn about deliberately making mistakes just to check what will happen if the worst think catastrophe happens. This helped me a lot back then for a month or two - until I was in situation where one person was rude to me - and I could not shake it off. The techniques failed me. Back then I did not know about Complex Trauma and external validation and emotional dysregulation - so I had no idea what is happening.
I actually wrote to Mark Freeman about this issue, but he was somewhat rude himself - he told me that his channel is intended to people who desire to have wellbeing- and he described me as if I am victimizing myself.
Although he totally missed my point - he made me realize the concept of narcissistic brain injury - that long term narcissistic abuse causes brain damage. And then I connected this brain injury with the reason why I cannot shake off abuse of others. It is this brain injury that makes me stuck, like a car in a mud or on ice. And it also makes me cognitive distortions such as catastrophizing, personalization and pessmism. And it is my responsibility to help the brain - since it is injured. I am waiting all the time for the brain to start feeling good enough to become active - but it won't. It is stuck due to injury. I can step out of the car and give it a push. This means Behavioral Activation Therapy - to be active even though I don't feel like it. Stockdale Paradox - that I accept being injured but still moving on, giving myself hope since it will not come on its own. My brain is unable to make me move, it is stuck. Immobility is part of mental illness as I learned. So I have to rely on my common sense to make decisions to shift focus on things and chores that I must do. This is the lesson I learned with PureOCD, it aligns with Mark Freeman's advice about how to deal with intrusive thoughts. He said that you do not try to stop it. Rituals like breathing and mediation or any defense mehanism against anxiety - only makes it worse. So the solution is to move, to be active and accept anxiety and intrusive worry - but to do something in align with my dreams and goals, and something that is natural and what I need to do anyways - but I would not do it - since I would wait for my brain to feel courageous and active enough. Now I know that due to narcissistic abuse - brain is injured and it cannot move.
A lot of social anxiety advice do not mention intrusive worry, intrusive thoughts and techniques for PureOCD. In fact, they even suggest to battle with negative thoughts, so the advice is detrimental by either being wrong or by ignoring the concept of PureOCD.
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I stumbled upon post on reddit how one person speaks about experience of getting complaints from others for the smallest things by keeping behaviour at check trying not to hurt others, while other people seem to not follow the rules and nobody questions them. It is related to this topic. Empathy on one side and narcissistic abuse on the other.
This video is like my life torn open and examined by surgery doctor.
"He doesn't get to learn that he has a right to get angry or appropriately aggressive when others mistreat him. Instead kid learns to censor such reactions because those reactions could result in complete withdrawal from the very same people they need." And toxic shame makes that kid to export own self worth in other people - constantly seeking external validation, instead of self worth being inside - where it naturally belongs - where there would take place self-validation - which is healthy.
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(reddit)
I actually see social anxiety solution as Rosetta stone for mental illness.
And I learned that it all comes down to self-validation. That we do not pathologize ourselves, our natural reactions.
IF we are kind and nice - if we don't have hidden agenda and we do not want to exploit others - there is no reason to correct or perform surgery, to entice toxic shame and to change ourselves to fit in. Trying otherwise creates anxiety, stress and plethora of mental instability and mental issues.
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(3.2.2022)
reddit:
Yes, I thought also that there is some kind of global marketing scheme, similar to cancer - where global corporations are selling only half medicine in order to keep cash flow and making money out of sick people.
However, I spent past 7 years (ever since 2015) watching videos on You tube about various topic related to social anxiety, literally on weekly basis. I avoided to comment them, I did not want to taint it with my opinions - I soaked in what others were telling, which is very interesting for me since until 2021 I would soak up other words due to external validation as the ultimate truth about anything. So it is not like I would hear their advice and throw it away as invalid or wrong. I only started in this year to realize how many wrong advice are there, out there. I only now realize that I am allowed to doubt person what they are talking, and not trust them as if my life depends on it.
Topics such as; Monday: social anxiety people pleaser avoidant toxic people pure ocd approval addiction
__________________ Tuesdays:
inner critic pushover self esteem change your life panic attack
___________________________________ Wed: inferiority complex fear of confrontation fear of conflict too nice cognitive distortions confidence toxic shame
________________________________ Thursdays: infj taken advantage of assertive comfort zone feeling guilty
_____________________ Fri: codependency how to stand up for yourself highly sensitive person fear of driving how to deal with angry people Generalized anxiety disorder how to set boundaries intrusive thoughts
I never commented them until last year (after I learned about CPTSD and realized connection between toxic shame and external validation). Videos were made by both medical official personnel, self help gurus and individuals - so there is wide range of resource. I think people honestly did not and could not connect CPTSD and social anxiety.
I had talk about why social anxiety is not researched so much with one psychologist over You tube comments. He said that social anxiety research would be too expensive - since current resources in medical facilities limit the experiments. Also experiments take long period of time, he said.
Regarding selfish people, I realized this is true for Alpha male masculinity channels. Again, I would soak up their information that is the same as Jordan Peterson is talking about: that you should man up, that you should be strong. The abuse or trauma is not part of their vocabulary, and their advice are extremely detrimental to psychological wellbeing, and mostly it is path to narcissism and total lack of empathy. And finally this week I encountered the reason why toxic masculinity channels exists at all - it is marketing. The authors behind it exploit the needs of young men especially to assert themselves, and they package it in instant Stoicism messages, that look excellent on the surface. In the same time they sell ads and products. It is Machiavellianism. Exploiting people who have a need.
On the other hand I did not notice this with social anxiety resources that are available. I stumbled upon CBT lecture from 1990s - where I finally learned why classical CBT is giving wrong advice about focusing on symptoms. They had early 1990s experiment with group of people believed to suffer from social anxiety. However, unwittingly they tested people with mild shyness, and then they based their whole social anxiety therapy based on people who were shy.
I think CBT will never admit this mistake, since it would cost them money - for treating millions of people in wrong way. For me personally, CBT produced me fawning, people pleasing and being pushover. Panic symptoms were partially gone - but social anxiety is still present - Classical CBT is not healthy solution to social anxiety. It is only partly functional and it created additional problems.
As I understand there is a third wave of CBT, focused on Humanistic therapy and DBT, where symptoms are accepted as they are, and individuals are taught to self-validate (accept your symptoms and thinking patterns, and then work on building yourself up from loving yourself instead of being in war with your own body and mind).
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(reddit)
As I have seen, there had been only one topic, 8 months ago about this, the topic is somewhat vague ("Are you sure you don’t have complex PTSD?").
I have been isolating myself from people since 1989. The trigger was bullying incident in front of my home by kids I used to play with. I never was shy or introverted, I had normal fears of unknown and loud, aggressive adults. Ever since then I decided to stay in my room and this stuck with me into adulthood. I learned this is called social phobia in 1996 - and since then I have been gathering books and resources about it, learning it. As I understand it was renamed into social anxiety around 1998/1999 because experts realized this is not something you get rid of by exposure (as phobias are healed).
Classical CBT was the main tool in late 1990s and onwards. I followed it very closely - so I can say it help in so much that it softens the panic attacks, but social anxiety is still present. For example - I was unable to initiate social contacts, make parties, engage in activities - as I was able before 1989. Classical CBT left me with serious issues regarding people pleasing, being pushover and fawning, seeking approval.
In 2015 my social anxiety got worse again, so I decided to re-visit all the self help books and resources - and I actually found out I have issue with "intrusive thoughts". Thus I learned about PureOCD. There were explanations about ERP and ACT techniques that really work for a couple of months.. Until I was in situation where one rude person made me regress into fears and anxiety (demanding me to to some task I was extremely scared to do, and she was very rude, hanging up the call, yelling and hysterically screaming at the phone). I could not shake off intrusive thoughts about how panicked I felt, helpless and without defense and standing up for myself. As usual I would shut up and self-censor myself. And I would observe loud and obnoxious people as gods and that they hold ultimate truth about anything.
Until 2021. I was reading DK book about general health and there was small article describing PTSD - that there are triggers. Before this I read DK books about psychology and philosophy - which I wrote I downloaded quotes from prominent experts in those fields - as instructing myself and learning about mental health.
This "trigger" information lead me to Complex Trauma information. And then - I learned it is connected to Social anxiety. Quote from the book "Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving" by Pete Walker - he said: "Cptsd is a more severe form of Post-traumatic stress disorder. It is delineated from this better known trauma syndrome by five of its most common and troublesome features: emotional flashbacks, toxic shame, self-abandonment, a vicious inner critic and social anxiety." "If you are stuck viewing yourself as worthless, defective, or despicable, you are probably in an emotional flashback. This is typically also true when you are lost in self-hate and virulent self-criticism."
Very soon I gathered information about CPTSD. And finally I got answers to Social anxiety issues I could not resolve. All the puzzles fit the place.
I learned concepts such as External reference locus of control. Where toxic shame unwittingly exports my self worth in other people. I trauma bond with others, because I am convinced I am unworthy and inept. Thus other people emotions are now mine. This is why I felt other people - their moods, opinions. I see them as gods, that they withhold ultimate truths about anything in life, and that their opinions are valid, true and final - and I must never doubt them. Socrates learned me that there is not ultimate truth, there are concepts in bias and paradoxes about truth and knowledge. Cognitive bias such as confirmation bias - where I will perceive world from what I know - while in the same time true reality is external. And as Kant said - I will never I could never know it in full. This answered my question why I trust other people. My psyche resolved issue of fear from not being perfect by putting absolute trust in other people. That is social anxiety in its core. I learned with CPTSD that this happens in childhood, being exposed to psychological abuse, narcissists and toxic environment that invalidated me (being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when child brain is unable to process it other than developing immature ego defense mechanisms - such as introjecting: soaking up other people words, opinions, statements as if my own).
Toxic shame makes me not trust myself and put trust in other people. Since other people have no clue what is ultimate truth (but from my perspective it appears they do) - and since people have various opinions and statements (which I took as my own command and to obey it) - the psyche finds easiest solution to balance out my persona of agreeableness, diplomacy with various and often conflicting demands from other people: into avoidance and being on hyperalertness, thus social anxiety. With CPTSD I learned about Polyvagal Theory - that whenever I feel triggered, brain goes into lizard brain mode, into amygdala hijacking - this is why I forget all the advice how to and what to do when scared.
I learned concept of self validation. That I accept myself. As Elaine Aron said long time ago in her book "HSP": Never underestimate the power of simply acknowledging to yourself that you are overaroused. It is the greatest secret to getting the arousal under control. You can tolerate high levels of stimulation. Arousal does not have to be anxiety, so do not accept the label "anxiety prone". Arousal can just be overstimulation. The Highly Sensitive Person, Elaine N. Aron
I like this one, too: Sometimes in your past you entered a social situation (usually overstimulating to begin with) and felt that you failed. Others said you did something wrong or did not seem to like you, or you failed to meet your own standards in the situation. Maybe you were already overaroused, having used your excellent imagination to envision all that might go wrong. Overarousal is not always due to fear. Thinking it is fear can make you feel shy when you are not. The Highly Sensitive Person, Elaine N. Aron
With CPTSD I learned that the "abuse" that is at the core of Complex trauma - does not have to be chronic physical abuse. In social anxiety resources, there is text about how one possible cause of social anxiety might be some trauma - but it does not help to dwell on it, and that it is irrelevant in the present time. This is untrue.
If we ignore trauma - it will grow larger and larger. Ignoring it is path to life with hypervigilance and being triggered all the time, at any time. I learned in my case, which was huge surprise - that trauma was in form of constant blaming me as kid, that I was not allowed to make any mistake, and I was exposed to yelling and screaming, rare physical abuse (once I was slapped in head and my head bounced of the edge of open door - that I have scar on my forehead). So it is not about sexual abuse of living in poor environment as seen in movies. I learned CPTSD trauma can be in form of having safe home - but not being valued - while in the same time being exposed to constant criticism about anything I do - while the reaction about my "mistakes" in age when mistakes are normal part of learning - were met with over-reaction and hysteria.
With CPTSD I learned about brain damage. That exposure to long term narcissistic abuse causes brain injury. That explained why I feel stuck with intrusive thoughts - brain has injury. Now I finally understand why I can't shake off someone being rude. It is the brain - it is injured. Brain injury is in form of immobility, being stuck in intrusive thoughts loop, trying to solve the unsolvable issues out of my control. It is in form of pessimism and cognitive distortions such as catastrophizing and personalizations. So I have to help my brain to get functional again - through Behavioral activation - that I step out of the car and give it a push, since brain is unable to move on, wheels are turning in the same place, being stuck in the mud. I give it a push by following advice for PureOCD - that I do not try to fight it, to accept it. This means to shift my focus on things I have to do, chores and my dreams, instead of worrying about the same thing I cannot resolve (Illusion of control). That I lean on my common sense, my decisions and super ego to guide me, instead of my injured brain. Anxiety has credibility of car salesman, anxiety lies to us. If I wait for brain to feel good enough - it will never happened because it has injury. I have to help my brain to move on, to be active. Mental illness is being stuck, immobility.
Self-validation taught me that I am ok with being embarrassed and making mistakes. That I do not self-censor myself - and since I self worth belongs inside me - intrinsic locus of control - instead of seeking external validation - I can rely on my common sense to guide me. This means conflict and confrontation are not about fighting with people. Being assertive is not about my way or highway. It is about being honest, speaking my truth, being authentic. As I learned, people with social anxiety have far superior intellect and social skills (skewed by toxic shame it appears as if we lack social skills) and triggers make our brain to go into amygdala hijacking - and toxic shame sends us into self censorship and compliance, groupthink and herd mentality - and our silence makes us part of wrong decisions - and we appear "dumb".
Bradshaw in his book took long explanations how to get rid of toxic shame - and thus he gave it too much power. Toxic shame is hallucination. You can burst it like bubble, in second. Without toxic shame, we cut trauma bonding and other people emotions, words, and opinions will not hurt us so much anymore, since we will place self worth inside us. This means trusting our thoughts opinions and words and being on par with other people, instead of placing ourselves in inferiority position.
As Elaine Aron said: We have to ignore all the messages from the warriors that we are not as good as they are. The warriors have their bold style, which has its value. But we, too, have our style and our own important contribution to make. The Highly Sensitive Person, Elaine N. Aron
They see us as timid, shy, weak, or unsociable. Fearing these labels, we try to be like others. But that leads to our becoming overaroused and distressed. Then that gets us labeled neurotic or crazy, first by others then by ourselves. The Highly Sensitive Person, Elaine N. Aron
Learning to see our trait as a neutral thing-useful in some situations, not in others-but our culture definitely does not see it, or any trait, as neutral. Be careful about accepting labels for yourself such as "inhibited", "introverted", "shy" The Highly Sensitive Person,E. Aron
Being sensitive to the discomfort, disapproval, or anger of others probably made you quick to follow every rule as perfectly as possible, afraid to make a mistake. Being so good all the time, however, meant ignoring many of your normal human feelings-irritation, Elaine Aron "HSP"
And I love this quote that encourage us to express ourselves, once we got rid of toxic shame, and accepted and validated ourselves as equal partner with society:
HSPs tend to fill that advisor role. What bring is a tendency to think about all the possible effects of an idea. Often we have to make ourselves unpopular by stopping the majority from rushing ahead. Thus to perform our role well, we have to feel very good about ourselves. "HSP"
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It comes out as arrogant and rude. Waitress is only working there, it is not her job to put lamp and lights. What can she do objectively? Leave her work and go to buy LED lamp from her own money? It certainly would be management decision to dim lights, and it is management decision in the end. No one is forcing you to eat there at that particular place. So - in this case I would stop being ego-centric and think that the world is revolving around me. This is not assertive, this is aggressive. Also before going to any restaurant, I usually read menu online, so that I do not waste time there or touch potentially unhygienic objects more than it's necessary :D
On the other hand, This does not mean that I am not allowed to write to management and ask for more lights for people who are visually impaired.
I would place this sketch in some other situation, where the person is not having health concerns, and where the waitress is rude and arrogant. Perhaps instead of waitress - some clerk or job situation.
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I dislike CBT. Our Confirmation bias prevents us from seeing the big picture. In this example, the lady was arrogant, ego-centric and narcissistic and without empathy - so she is probably sociopath. That type would use pie example to get rid of any ounce of guilt and normalize abuse and justify her mental illness (narcissism, being aggressive to people who cannot defend themselves in order to feel good about yourself) as something normal and understandable.
Classical CBT never addresses trauma and self-validation. As I understand there is third wave of CBT that goes into direction of Humanistic therapy - DBT.
One another thing. Guilt can and is used as a tool to control other people. CBT does not explain this phenomena.
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(4.2.2022)
Jordan Peterson is marketing ploy. He abuses psychology to gain money. He is throwing over-simplifications, logical fallacies and biases, twist the reality so it serves his business of selling words that in real life do not work.
0:25 "Imagine you get upset for obstacle in your path. Clear obstacle, you have to say, you afraid to speak. Then life will be nothing but obstacles." Just because you are speaking out it doesn't mean that the world will fawn over you. He is instructing people to scream, yell, be hysterical and force your way in the world. In real life - yes, you should speak up - but only when you know inside you are correct. Sometimes we are wrong. Many times we lack enough information and we make wrong conclusions - so even if we get what we want from this place of lacking knowledge - it would turn out disaster, since it is not complete knowledge that you based your desires and wishes about something.
1:10 "As you stay silent you get smaller, you do not manifest courage by your standards" Again, if you do speak up about anything that bothers you, you will become difficult person, narcissist, and annoying and obnoxious person. Just imagine what would happen if everyone voiced their opinion about anything in the world that does not suit you. It is exhausting! He is instructing the people to become emotional vampires, to suck out the energy of others by your constant complaining and nagging. You should speak up if 1) someone accuses you of something untrue and wrong and especially when you have evidence that proves your innocence 2) when you were silent for years and you take up the obvious abuse and intolerance by others, when someone disrespect you chronically over and over again. What happens with people who have extreme high IQ? And or people who are very sensitive that they process the world with deeper stimuli than most of folks? Such people recognize and see so many things wrong with the world around them. If they start to voice their concern - they would blabber 24/7. The whole world is messed up - because of ego-centric people like Jordan Peterson who are giving false wrong and detrimental advice, he is instructing people to become - remain ego-centric, little kids who are throwing temper tantrums whenever they feel itch.
1:22 "If you don't speak now, what makes you feel being prepared in future" If you don't speak now - it is because of ingrained toxic shame, programming in childhood, Complex Trauma and social anxiety. It is not because it is your choice. It is programming by unrecognized mentally ill people in your toxic environment when you were kid. Unloving and neglected environment where you were seen as object to obey and fix your authorities. This is not something you can change by talking about it, and throwing more shame and guilt tripping into starting to speak. The abused kids become abusers themselves when they talk and nag and complain. This is what makes cycle of abuse ongoing. Speak out, voice out elephant in the room when necessary, not all the time. Not to all people. Some people are dumb, some people have issue that is happening in this moment - at most of the times they are careful how they act. Jordan Peterson is instructing people to become Karen, hysterical drama queens.
1:33 "People say stay quiet in school, just get grades" Nobody says that. Nobody. This is fake information.
1:55 "You have to face it when if happens" Yeah, when "it" happens. But what if you went through abuse and people like Jordan Peterson who made you over-react to anything and anyone. And thus now you are stuck with chronic worry and hypervigilance because people like Jordan Peterson taught everyone to be hysterical monsters? He is creating the world without diplomacy, without interdependence, without listening to others.
2:10 "There are studies about this pheonomena" There is accepted fact that studies can be rigged and that the researcher can influence the outcome of experiments and studies. This is called "researcher bias": "any unintended errors in the research process or the interpretation of its results that are attributable to an investigator's expectancy or preconceived beliefs." This is from dictionary of psychology. And Jordan Peterson as quack that never understood psychology is unaware or is ignoring this bias - and he is instructing people to believe authorities. So in the same video he is instructing people to stand up against authorities and speak up, yet paradoxically in the same time we should believe authorities and be obedient to them like in Milgram Experiment. This is proof he is Machiavellianist -- he is getting money to speak psycho mambo jumbo - filled with contradicting instructions and contradicting statements.
2:51 "Most of your beliefs are shallow in explicit formulation" Nope, they are not shallow, they are illusion. These are called Confirmation bias. "Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values." And again, either he ignores this on purpose, or because he does not know it - in both cases it is sign he is quack. He is literally keeping the hypnosis and coma of masses of people that he is speaking to - about the nature of universe: that there is no ultimate truth out there, and that you do not need quacks like JP to guide you and give you instructions about life. Trust your own intuition and common sense and upbringing values.
2:57 "You think you believe something but it is shallow, it is assumption" IT is delusion, a hallucination. Say it like it is, you marketing quack.
3:06 "Write counter examples, that will articulate you" No it won't, since you will be thinking from confirmation bias. You will stay stuck and speak from tunnel vision, trapped inside your own mind. The only way you can articulate is to check with peer review, someone who is opposing you. And on twitter when he is faced with criticism, he writes, his reaction is what one must do when someone is attacking you - will I ignore them or report them. He is quack.
3:22 "You will turn into what you wrote" You will not turn into, you will remain the same. This is called ego-centrism. Being kid, childish point of view - being able to see only your perception. Not having empathy. And as psychopath and narcissist - this concept is very foreign to him. He tried to learn it in psychology, but he turned it upside down and now he is teaching people how to remain ego-centric. Piaget discovered that overcoming ego-centrism is the last stage in Developmental stage of children. With abuse present, people get stuck in ego-centrism.
4:14 "Professor who is so corrupt that he will punish student who runs essay that runs contrary to their opinion" hahaha Jordan Peterson sued the University for having opinion that ran contrary to his opinion. He is such a hypocrite. He is representing himself as statue of liberty, he is promoting free speech here, for marketing purposes, and in real life - he goes and makes a law suit - doing exact the same thing that he labeled here as "corrupt". Quack!
4:30 "I believe it is abnormal circumstance" Than you suing the university is abnormal. You are admitting you are abnormal.
5:12 Reporter to Jordan Peterson: "I don't know if I understand it but it is fascinating. Think deeply" That is the problem. Jordan Peterson appears as intellectual - but he is just throwing psychological phrases that he does not understand himself. IF you are unable to explain it like 6 year old, than this means you do not understand it yourself. This is not deep. He is just doing marketing, Machiavellianist - he is abusing people who have ingrained toxic shame and who have external validation issues - that seek guidance from others, he is representing himself as saviour. But he is not. He has no clue about psychology, he needs psychologist.
The purpose of psychology is that you stand up on your own two feet, that you come up with your own solutions and steps how to manage and lead life. That is what psychologist should teach you - without giving your instructions what to do in life. It is like teaching you to catch fish - you need to learn the process in order to feed yourself. He is giving you fish and he is making you addicted to him, as cult leader. That is dark psychology and Machiavellianism, exploiting the weak and needy people.
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Love it! Thank you!
Being around angry people ruined my life - it first started as Complex trauma - being exposed to hysterical toxic environment as kid where I learned I am invalidated and teaching training me as Pavovian dogs or circus animals into hypnotizied belief that my mistakes are end of the world apocalypse - and then it turned into social anxiety and avoidance, where I cannot stand angry people - without getting triggered. So advice like this helps a lot. Toxic shame is integrated, believing I am unworthy, and that I observe others from inferiority level, there other people are correct whatever they say it is mine order and command and ultimate truth that I must not doubt about - external reference locus of control.
"reflect back emotions with simple use statements" Yeah, this is what I am learning with DBT and Humanistic Psychology, humanistic therapy, that I self validate (accept myself, my flaws and mistakes and work and build on that) but also to validate others as I validate myself. Your step is explaining this validation process. It is not about approving others and their behaviour, is it about validating their own belief that may be wrong biased and fallacy.
It is counter intuitive because we are taught to use I statement, that other person knows how I feel - they say that we avoid blaming other person, that is the reason to use I statement.
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(reddit)
"I felt that there is more than that." Oh it is. Guilt can be used to hypnotize other people. For example, a lot of macho alpha male channels are using and abusing masculinity to form opinion. I realized that this is actually marketing ploy, Machiavellianism, where they abuse people needs and weaknesses for their own financial gain. So you spread the "advice" how to be male - that are not based on psychological facts. This is also done in politics, where nationalism is used to control votes of people who lack higher IQ or desire to learn about the world. In both examples you have manipulators on one side and needy people on other side, who seek their frame of reference for anything in life from other people, from external resources. This is very dangerous - it can lead to Milgram Experiment. (being compliant with abuse) So people can be gaslighted easily. We can see this is narcissism and their victims. It all comes down to toxic shame ingrained inside - firm belief that I am inept and unable to handle and manage life. I see this wrong and solidified belief at the core of social anxiety disorder. People are not aware of it, from anxiety point of view - where I see tunnel vision of other people as guidance. Toxic shame is slick, it is hard to grasp and to catch it. I see classical CBT (which is commonly used by most mental health experts) is based on this tunnel vision and thus it makes people stay in tunnel vision. It does not explain the trauma and effects narcissistic abuse. Classical CBT tells - your symptoms are abnormal and you must fix them. This is not true. Social anxiety symptoms are totally normal reaction to abnormal situations, abnormal people and abnormal events.
"trying to control things that are out of your control, leads to frustration, and drains energy" Not only that. Trying to control other people is cognitive distortion. It is twisted thinking - and people are not aware of it.
"And I feel that there are some deeper layers here, which I am still trying to see." I realized it comes down to self-validation. Abuse, trauma is sign we were not validated when growing up. Not being validated does not necessarily mean physical abuse or anything dangerous. It can be simply being told or shown you do not matter. That your dreams are stupid. That your emotions do not count.
I noticed that both "toxic shame" and "self-validation" seem stupid and non effective written like this. But when you put them in real life, and real life situations, suddenly they have totally deeper meaning and they explain all the mental disorders and panic symptoms that classical CBT tries to manage,
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(reddit)
" I'm to scared to talk to anyone,"
Accept it. Stop fighting it. Society will label you as shy or introverted. Do not listen to them.
Social anxiety is manifold. This means, it has different faces, it has many hands, it is not one-sided. This means, your fears... are not only fears.
1) Social anxiety is part of Complex Trauma. Being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when growing up. Now we expect criticism from others. Criticism in young age when making mistakes was normal - will make us develop toxic shame. This means - we will believe we are inept to manage life and that our opinion is worthless. This leads to: 2) Social anxiety is having external reference locus of control. Due to toxic shame, psyche exports our self worth outside ourselves into other people. Now self worth is embedded in external - in everyone around you. This means - you shut up. You self-censor yourself, because from your point of view other people are gods and you take their words as ultimate truth and command. You obey them. This is now inferiority complex - and we are not on par with other people. We can over-compensate - and if we do - then we will develop Borderline disorder - where we will yell and scream at other people. And later it can turn into Narcissistic abuse - where you blame other people automatically for anything that is bugging you. Social anxiety is brain's way to accommodate our diplomatic soul with demands of our exported self worth - whereas other people are competent and we must obey other people. So social anxiety is balance between being friendly and appeasing other people. This soon turns into trauma bonding and fawning as automatic response to anything stressful or anything that resembles to original trauma. If original trauma was being exposed to hysterical people - you will get triggered by loud, obnoxious and violent people. Being triggered means feeling panic attack symptoms. From your point of view, these panic symptoms are the only danger, and there is no other explanation why you feel it. You do not blame other people because of this uncomfortable feelings - since your self worth is exported in other people. So our brain will create cognitive distortions to manage this chaos. It will create perception of world where I will take everything personal - that it is all my fault. And catastrophizing - brain is built to keep us safe. We labelled our panic attacks as the worst thing in the world - so now brain in order to protect us will create more things to be afraid of. It will throw us flashbacks and memories of our past embarrassments - and soon we will imagine potential social embarrassments in the future. Solution is - accept being embarrassed. Accept that you will make fool of yourself, that you will say something stupid. This is normal in social settings, to be embarrassed. 3) Our brain tried to help us in our childhood to deal with unrecognized mentally ill people around us by forming immature ego defense mechanisms. One of them is introjection - where I soak in other people and I take their emotions as if my own in order to deal with them. Toxic shame tells me that my emotions are invalid - so psyche now lives through other people. The point is that we do not accept ourselves. Instead of external reference locus of control there is intrinsic locus of control. This means - that I accept myself as I am. With flaws and mistakes. So that I no longer shut up when I am being accused of something untrue. That I do not self-censor myself when someone is rude to me. Which leads to: 4) Self validation. Abuse and trauma made us not trust ourselves, we were being told that our hurt is not important. That our opinion is stupid. And this is the core of toxic shame. Socrates said that there is no ultimate truth out there. If you check our paradoxes and logical fallacies and biases - you will learn that people are prone to mental shortcuts. They base their opinions quickly, without really thinking about them. This means, other people are not so competent and all knowing as they seem to us. Other people are weird and bizarre (from movie The Breakfast club, 1985), they just hide it well. Many of them have low self worth and they over-compensate - and they appear as strong to us. They are not. From toxic shame point of view, other people seem that their opinion matters, and our is trash. Nope. People with social anxiety have ability to see world from many different levels and different angles - and many people will not like this if you speak it out. They will be annoyed. But that does not make them correct or valid, they are simply ego-centric (seeing the world from tunnel vision, only from their own limited perspective). This means, speak up. Talk. Your opinion does matter. 5) Social anxiety is sign that we were exposed to abuse and unrecognized mentally ill person - however it is also sign that we have something inside that is powerful and we have to discover this on our own. As Piaget said, if you tell others what it is, if you teach people what to do, you take away their ability to create anything in life on their own.
When you put all this together - this tells us - do we really want to go to parties, or we feel lonely? Perhaps it is ok to be on your own. And then make friends when you accept yourself as you are
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(reddit)
> n your own. And then make friends when you accept yourself as you are
I am talking from experience. I have closed myself in my room since 1989. I have studied hundreds of texts and proposed solutions.
It seems that we are different from others in good and positive way. Society will try to label us by what they know about themselves - and these labels are negative - that we are weak for example or losers because we do not like things like most people do.
Ancient Indians said that our body is Avatar. That we are coming from different dimensions and unknown universes. Then from this perspective - social anxiety starts to make sense.
We process reality different than most people. We process it on deeper level. This makes us much more mature and adult than other people. However, this has negative affect on most people - since most people do not like being told what to do and being warned what they must change, due to their cognitive dissonance.
Then what happens is similar to Chinese Cultural Revolution - that the society attacks the teachers and professors and anyone more educated than them - and ashame them, mocks them and makes them shut up. That is social anxiety in nutshell.
We are like The Catcher in the Rye - where we try to prevent children fall running off the cliff. Many grown up people are extremely ego-centric (childish). They see life only from one angle , it is much easier for them to function in this life, they avoid feeling anxiety by inventing quick shortcuts that leads to biases and incorrect conclusions which in the end hurt other people and cause them pain. We on the other hand are very aware of this process and we try to avoid causing pain to others. From this perspective, social anxiety is very and extremely positive entity. People pay large sums of money to learn how not to be ego-centric. We have it naturally, since birth, it is in our DNA, it is intertwined with our personality and our soul.
Crab mentality will due to envy try to get other crabs down, so that they cannot escape out. That is what we experience with bullying and mocking. It is other people being envious for our far superior abilities. And guess what words they will speak to bring you down? They will tell you that you are loser, shy, weak, stupid. When we have toxic shame (and we are prone to toxic shame due to our sensitive nature) - it means we will believe them. Their sarcasm and ethical rudeness (someone who appears honest in their slander) will appear as confirmation to us that we are inept and unworthy and unable to manage life - so we must listen to other people.
Other people thus will try to explain us our emotions. That is impossible, and we will also try to label our emotions. Well, problem with trauma and anxiety and being over-aroused is that - we actually do not know what kind of emotions we have inside us. We give our emotions wrong labels. And then we believe those labels and end up with additional neurosis and additional anxiety - based on our distorted labels of what we are feeling.
You said "I declined an invite to my first party " - well, the next time accept and approach it as experiment. See what happens. Test what will happen when you start conversation. Will other kids mock you? Will they ignore you? Test what happens when you disagree with someone. Will someone throw temper tantrum. Will they engage in Ad Hominem - this means they will comment your persona or what you wear - something that is not related to the subject.
Classical CBT (accepted therapy for social anxiety) will tell you that you expose yourself to your fears and that you calm down your panic (by mediation and breathing). This helped me to easy panic symptoms but it also lead me to people pleasing and fawning. Check how you react to other people - do you agree with them even though you know they are wrong. Do they insist on taking illegal drugs, alcohol or something dangerous social media challenge - that you deep inside know it is wrong. Will you protest or go along with herd mentality and groupthink. This is why classical CBT is horrible and detrimental - you end up pleasing other people. When you place your self worth inside you - you are free to disagree with people and be fine with that. You do not feel urge to shut up and self-censor your truth and your opinion.
The point is that you create psychological safety for yourself - this means that you are in healthy environment where you are not taking abuse and someone disrespect. You can do this only if you self-validate yourself. This means being ok with having panic, with stuttering, with saying something stupid, with making a fool out of yourself - that you are totally fine with being yourself in any form you come up. With social anxiety you have in built protective mechanism from hurting other people. You know it is wrong to mock other people, since you know how much it hurts on yourself. You respect other people by not making fun of them. So you will not turn into narcissist or borderliner who like drama and conflict just for the sake of creating chaos.
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(reddit)
"Why am I like this?" It is because we carry toxic shame inside us and we are not aware of it. It comes up in actions like these - that you feel ashamed and embarrassed for expressing your opinion. That is social anxiety, one face of social anxiety disorder.
When we have toxic shame, our self worth is being extracted from ourselves. Our psyche transports it into other people. Similar to governments in WW2 when Nazis invaded their countries, the government of invaded country fled to England or USA. That is what happened to our self worth. It has fled outside us - and now other people are our mind. We live our life through other people - because that is where our self worth is located. This is called external reference locus of control, trauma bonding and Stockholm Syndrome. From our point of view - we are not aware of this process and we live our lives hooked on other people. Their emotions are now part of us. We try to appease other people - and this is done automatically. As if hypnotozed. If someone is angry, we cannot stand it, we try to fix their problem. It goes even so far that we pre-emptively make actions to prevent someone getting angry or in any kind experience discomfort, we go to extra length to make other people's lives pleasant and nice. That is because our self worth is in them.
Toxic shame prevents bringing self worth back where it belongs - inside us. Bradshaw's book about toxic shame did not help much. It explained what toxic shame is, however he spend half of his book talking how to get rid of it - as if we have to become brain surgery doctors or spend decades fixing it. In this way, he gave toxic shame power. He talks about toxic shame as if it takes 12 steps of recovery as alcoholics. For me, this was very foreign since I cannot stand alcohol and I perceive God differently than a tool that I use to fix my problems and leave it away when I am done. Toxic shame is hallucination. So it can be burst like a bubble in a second. It is delusion. Toxic shame is by-product of abuse, it is connected to Complex trauma - which is umbrella condition hovering above social anxiety. Complex trauma is mother ship, while social anxiety is small vessel that is part of it. During childhood we were in close contact with unrecognized mentally ill person that traumatized us by their constant nagging and complaints and relentless criticism 24/7. Now as adults we believe we are inept to handle life - and our self worth (which is in charge to give us instruction how to manage life) is exported outside of ourselves.
Without toxic shame, we can bring toxic shame back inside us, where it naturally belongs. This means we can trust our common sense, our super-ego (collection of gathered knowledge about anything in life, similar to inner internet database), we accept our mistakes and we are fine with making a fool out of ourselves, being stupid and talking stupid and irrational things that other people will mock, attack and make a sarcastic jokes about.
For me, it took first the realization what is Complex trauma and what is external validation. Then few weeks later, I was in car, with my father complaining and nagging about my driving. I had to drive to meet our cousin - and I always listened to him for giving instruction where to go and where to park. I did not trust myself that I am able to make decision - since he has previous experience of place where we were suppose to meet. In my head I expected advice and instruction where to drive and where to stop. So in that moment when I asked him where to park and he went berserk for he did not know either, I realized - it clicked inside my head - that I am doing this about anything in life. I do not trust myself where to go and what to do. I believe that mistake that I would do would be catastrophe. But in the same time I realized that I already have accumulated knowledge from before. And that whatever I decide - I cannot be too much wrong. So I drive 4 or 5 meters away from where he yelled where I should park - just to spite him - because I observed nice spot to park a little bit away. So I realized I can lean on my knowledge inside me. On my experience. Needless to say, I have driving phobia too - and from that moment this phobia lessened for 80 percent down.
This is what we do with social anxiety. We do not trust ourselves. We do not stand by ourselves. We do not believe we are competent to do anything in life. So we shut up, we self-censor ourselves. We delete our post - because other people have our self worth. We exported it in other people due to toxic shame. We see ourselves as stupid, morons, incapable and not perfect enough to live and make any decisions. This core belief make us slaves to other people and we form invisible bond with others - which is called trauma bonding.
So without toxic shame - we can rely on us. The energy that we would spend on appeasing other people we can instead place on our decisions - and stand by our words and whatever we wrote.
This means, we can allow ourselves to make mistakes and make quick biases and logical fallacies - since everybody makes mistakes as well. We can of course be kind and care and think twice - but in life it is rarely enough time to think things through.
With Socrates we know that there are no ultimate truths out there. So other people do not hold ultimate truth. Everything in life is dualistic - it can be explained and view from at least two opposing opinions. This means, whatever mistake we have done - it is validated from certain point of view. Of course - unless we are unkind or violent. But having social anxiety - means we are very empathetic, very kind and we are very careful how we interact with people, it is in our DNA, it is our persona and part of our personality. Shakespeare said Be just and fear not. This means, if we do not have hidden agenda - if we do not want to hurt and cause pain to other people - if we do our best to do the right things, to have "good thoughts, good words and good deeds" - there is no reason to carry so much guilt and shame that toxic shame makes us to carry like Sisyphus on our backs.
Guilt is hypnotic emotion, manipulative people abuse it to control others. All this means - even if we said something stupid - it is probably not criminal, it is not violent and it is not causing someone to commit suicide - do it. Say it out loud if you know it is crucial to talk about it. Abuse and trauma does not allow us to express ourselves. Express yourself. Abuse and trauma do not allow us to validate ourselves since we were instructed like circus animals or Pavlovian dogs to become "NPC Wojak" (someone who do not think for themselves or do not make their own decisions).
Dunning-Kruger effect says that people who are dumb will be the loudest, while clever and intelligent people are more silent - unless they are super experts and they can quickly reply to nonsense. So the chances are that people who negatively evaluated your post were simply dumb. And toxic shame inside you created them to be your gods, you take their negative criticism as your order and you obey them. Abuse makes our bodies react to criticism with pumping chemicals and hormones inside us - so we are trained Pavlovian dogs who will respond to people's criticism with guilt. This will happen automatically and it goes totally unrecognized. Since in our childhood we never experienced unconditional love and acceptance and validation - we do not know how to self-validate. We learned to hate ourselves and see everything that is wrong with us. So people's criticism confirms this ingrained toxic shame and invalidation. Then we delete our own words. This is what we do in real life, we self censor ourselves and we shut up.
Elain Aron said in her book HSP: Being sensitive to the discomfort, disapproval, or anger of others probably made you quick to follow every rule as perfectly as possible, afraid to make a mistake. Being so good all the time, however, meant ignoring many of your normal human feelings-irritation, frustration, selfishness, rage. Since you were so eager to please, others could ignore your needs when in fact yours were often greater than theirs. Elaine Aron "The Highly Sensitive Person"
Spend enough time putting yourself out there in the world - your sensitivity is not something to be feared. Carl Jung believed that when highly sensitive patients has experienced a trauma, they had been unusually affected and so developed a neurosis. Preferring toughness, the culture sees our trait as something difficult to live with, something to be cured. HSPs differ mainly in their sensitive processing of subtle stimuli. This is your most basic quality. The way to come to tolerate and then enjoy being involved in the world is by being in the world. Elaine Aron "The Highly Sensitive Person"
Post yourself, express yourself. If you are kind and non violent, there is no reason to suppress yourself. Don't delete your posts.
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(5.2.2022)
But if you really analyze this worry you would find out by surprise that it is actually toxic shame behind it. Toxic shame is inability to trust yourself that you are bringing the best decisions, and inability to be with yourself when you make mistakes. It is deep sense of guilt and deep desire that you are perfect, and have perfectionism and that you are inept to handle and manage life. Toxic shame is hallucination - it is false view of anything in life, it is illusion and delusion that appear real and true to us.
Once gone, we no longer depend on other people's opinion and we can become creative and active.
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(reddit)
"My question is what would be the best method to cure the anxiety and get rid of all these symptoms."
CBT removes panic symptoms, that is for sure. I will open topic about this.
However - they do not address social anxiety. It addresses uncomfortable and scary panic attacks that we feel - and that from our perspective seems as the only problem. From our tunnel vision perspective is seems that once we remove panic symptoms, our life will be great and that we will be able to do anything in life and that there will be no problems at all. This is Salvation fantasy. I called it Fantasy freedom.
This is because anxiety lies to us. Anxiety has credibility or car salesman. And we put our trust in anxiety.
Social anxiety is part of Complex trauma - being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when we were formed as person and when our personality started to developed - we were exposed to unrecognized mentally ill person (or group of toxic people, toxic environment) - and this exposure made us grow into socially anxious person. From our perspective - we are problem, our symptoms appear as problem and naturally we want to get rid of them.
But this is not how psyche works. This classical CBT will not work. It will remove symptom but not the cause. Instead of listening to our anxiety, we need to focus on the cause. (I see you shiver with anticipation. But maybe the rain is really to blame; so I'll remove the cause but not the symptom.)
The cause is long term exposure to narcissistic abuse. So - the solution instead of classical CBT is third wave of CBT.
Quote from the book: DBT teaches the skills to accept and tolerate distress and to manage disturbing or provocative emotional stimulation. The process involves gaining behavioral control, then experiencing rather than silencing emotional stress—discussing and accepting past traumatic experiences, and tackling self-blame and dysfunctional thoughts. The four skills of DBT: Skills training teaches people who feel at the mercy of their emotions to accept themselves and their thoughts and to replace dysfunctional behaviors with positive actions. MINDFULNESS Become aware of the emotional experience— observe rather than react. INTERPERSONAL EFFECTIVENESS Stay calm and pay respectful attention to other people. DISTRESS TOLERANCE Use self-soothing encouragement in stressful situations. EMOTIONAL REGULATION Choose to behave in a positive way despite negative emotions DK How Psychology Works_ The Facts Visually Explained
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(reddit)
ncbi web site claims: "At the start of the study, individuals had had social anxiety disorder for an average of 19 years. During the next 12 years 37% recovered, compared with 58% for GAD and 82% for panic disorder without agoraphobia."
Ok. so... where are these people? Why they don't share their thoughts and realization with us? If they are healed from social anxiety - and they have approval by medical authorities that they have indeed recovered - couldn't therapist collect their thoughts and experiences on web site - so that we could access their solutions?
In my opinion, most of these people did not have social anxiety to begin with. It was probably mild shyness. Also, social anxiety - it is disorder when it blocks us from living our life. However, classical CBT unblocked my panic symptoms - and it would seem that I am "healed" from social anxiety.
However - if I people please, if I fawn and if I am pushover, and if I do not make decisions related to social situations on my own (have parties, keep relationships and friendships ongoing), if I do not have filter to keep toxic people out - I would say social anxiety is still present inside me. If someone rude (who has no direct influence over my life) makes me stuck in intrusive worry loops and PureOCD - I would say the disorder is still present inside me.
So - I would like to ask these 37% - how do they react to rude and angry people, especially those who have authority? How they find another job? How they handle their symptoms that we might so easily mis-label as panic and fears and shyness? How they make decisions when they are in presence of bully or if there is ongoing mobbing? How they stand up for themselves when someone is hysterical? And when you need that hysterical person to talk and cooperate (because of job, finances, shelter, information, papers, appointment, service) so you cannot leave that person but put up with their abuse and temper tantrums?
What would you ask someone who has healed social anxiety? What your question would be - to solve blockage and stickiness you are dealing in this moment?
I think social anxiety (and I will open topic about this) is not really disorder. It is actually unknown entity. It is related to being HSP. It is connected to having higher IQ and emotional IQ (extremely high empathy skills and high communication skills).
I think messages from society, therapist who do not understand complex trauma and unwitting people who dislike psychology - are giving false and detrimental labels, advice and instructions - that mess us up even more. They lead us into wrong direction, but they appear as they are helping us.
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(reddit)
" but really they think I’m stupid or an idiot or annoying"
We got this perception during childhood when we were exposed to adult hysteria, and narcissistic abuse - and our child brain was unable to process it in any other way than developing immature ego defense mechanisms and cognitive distortions.
Introjection - where we soak up feelings emotions and expressions of others as if it is our own. In childhood this make us survive torrid accusations and temper tantrums from unrecognized mentally ill person that was close to us. When we show empathy towards the hysterical person, they would let us off the hook and we would be safe. So we are trained like circus animals and Pavlovian dogs to match emotions with other people. This means pre-emptively trying to predict when they will get mad at us.
Cognitive distortions like catastrophizing go along with this, where we predict the worst case scenario in order to be prepared for the next hysterical outburst.
Or personalization, where we take on the blame so that the narcissist would let us go and leave us alone - nobody kicks the dead dog.
Now as adults we carry this internalized toxic shame facets along with us, and it is natural for us, it is normal to have constant feeling that people are fake when they are nice, and that truly they think the worst about me. This is trauma trapped inside our body. Our body is trained to release chemicals and hormones to feel guilty when we would try to break free from this trauma bonding - for example to say to ourselves that we don't care about them. Body will simply release stress chemicals - but from our point of view we will not be aware that our body is drugging us into codependence and people pleasing. It will seem natural that other people are always angry and annoyed by us even when they appear nice and friendly. So our body is curving the reality - and we have no clue that we are in state of chronic worry and hypervigilance - since this is what we grew up with. This is normal state for us. That is social anxiety disorder.
So what to do? Knowing this is body thing and we have been injured by being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse helps us to stop believing in guilt and shame. However from my own experience and as third wave of CBT has shown - to recover from these triggers, flashbacks and distorted beliefs - we have to put self worth back inside us, where it naturally belongs.
Once we have self worth inside us, our brain and decisions will naturally spring from being contented with ourselves instead of seeking validation from other people. In the end, what is other person is really always angry. Perhaps they have some hidden mental issues. We cannot control that. It is not our job to fix other people (even though this is the lesson we were programmed to believe in childhood). And many people do have hidden agenda, that they never will speak out loud and honestly.
So our social anxiety gives us a precious gift actually - we can sniff out possibility of true agenda behind people's actions and words. That is road to self-validation. That paradoxically - you do not fight this constant feeling. Instead, accept it. Become scientist - and seek red flags, facts and objective reality. Do they really think I am stupid? How can I check this without asking them bluntly 'do you think I am stupid'. As you said, even when they are friendly, they will probably lie and they will never admit how they are feeling about us. When I have self worth - it means I trust my feelings and hunches and intuition, even when I am possibly wrong. The difference is that I approach it from Descartes point of view - that I doubt everything around me, including my own conclusions and perceptions. To remove the doubt - it is only possible by recovering and discovering the truth.
There is a way to check whether other people are annoyed by us. We just have to be creative to find it out. And in the end, when we are ok with our fears, mistakes and flaws - does it really matter what other people think about us? When we self-validate ourselves, when we are truly ok with our decisions and mistakes, something magical happens. We stop seeking validation and approval from other people.
You asked how to be more confident. Confidence is paradox. If you think you must do something to feel confident - you will never feel confident. You will over-compensate. You will waste time, energy and money to gain approval from other people to tell you that you are amazing. That is not confidence. Confidence is when you accept yourself that you are not confident, best, amazing, great, grand - and that you are totally fine with it, that you are totally fine with being yourself as you are, with all flaws and mistakes and embarrassing moments in the past and possible future. Paradoxically when you are ready to be fool, fooled and ashamed and mocked and laughed at - you will feel confident.
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(reddit)
> mind yourself that they’re busy thinking about themselves, and their situation. Humanize them. Read up on interesting news stories so you can have something to talk about. Write down general small talk ideas to use when you meet new people and mentally pull it up.
This is great advice and it will probably work - if we were not so chronically worried and if we didn't have trauma on our shoulder, carrying it as Atlas the weight of this world. Or roll it constantly like Sisyphus.
I learned that specific steps and instructions do not work for me personally. I discovered this is due to hypervigilance - and with social anxiety this is in any social situation - my brain goes into amygdala hijacking. Once in lizard mode, I lost my ability to retain amazing and good advice, such as yours. I remember nada. So it is useless, unfortunately, to learn any instructions.
We are constantly forced to make decisions - quickly - about anything in life. Mostly when we are undone and when we lack all significant and required information. So I would go along with general advice, mindset really. Where I am able to produce my own solutions and my own instructions, custom set according to each given situation.
Piaget said that once we tell child how to do something, we are stealing his ability to learn it on its own. He said that teaching is when we give general instruction and leave the child to discover the world and to use tools on its own at the playground.
And in the end, what about people who are not socially anxious - how they come up with situations when they meet Machiavellians - people who appear friendly and nice, but they actually have secret agenda that is not so friendly and nice. I doubt that many people have secret set of instructions that they pull out on their mobile phones and then go through them step by step. They just go along with the flow, they let their intuition, hunch and previous experience to guide them, and they are totally fine if they make mistake and mess up. They are probably quick to engage in Fight mode - where we rather lean onto fawning, but that is another topic.
I see ability that we can catch the fish on our own better than seeking instructions how to deal with particular situation in our life that bother us from socially anxiety perspective.
This is why I dislike classical CBT, where they give set of instructions how to get rid of panic symptoms, but they totally miss the explanation why I feel panic in the first place. And whether this is panic at all.
I see third wave of CBT as great solutions for questions like this one - when we are uncertain what other people think about us. Since we have toxic shame - this means we exported our self worth into other people - which means I have to bring self worth back inside me where it belongs - would be pre-requisite about anything related to social anxiety. And then, as DBT tells us: that I accept my experiences, feelings and fears. That I do not fight them.
In this particular example, it would mean - that I do not do anything about this constant feeling that other people are hating me. That I accept this as social anxiety disorder and then shift my focus on things I need to do. Trauma that created social anxiety disorder at its root is that we were not allowed to feel anything, we were not allowed to allow ourselves to express our concerns, we were not given permission to feel panic. So the natural solution - is paradoxical. That we allow our panic, that we allow our fears. The brain is built in such way that if we give signal to the brain that there is some kind of problem - the brain will give more problems for us to solve. This is the cycle of PureOCD intrusive thoughts. So if I have feeling that other people are angry at me and that they hate me - the brain will give me through Confirmation Bias proofs that they do, and it will predict more of this hidden anger to be perceived. So if I start to resolve this and try to control my presumptions and anxiety - the brain will simply throw more tasks to be resolved. It is the cycle of chronic worry and hyper-alertness and hypervigilance. And it is all because as kids we were not allowed to express our pain and hurt and unfair treatment.
So - let's try to express it now. It is counterintuitive, but we can try anyway. What will happen if I am ok with other people hating me? What will happen if I tell myself that this is delusion but still in the same time I accept it as truth since my scared inner child is believing in this truth? What will happen if I stop denying feeling scared and that I am totally fine with people hating me and being angry at me?
Self-validation says that paradoxically we will not care any more whether people like or dislike us. They will simply not be primary focus anymore.
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(reddit)
> Not sure how you're just going to minimize the massive efforts of someone to recover from mental illness
I will create separate topic about CBT and explain in it more detail. So far you are going through mental shortcuts and biases, quick and wrong conclusions and you are putting your distorted perceptions about what I said in my mouth.
For starters, I doubt that anyone with serious case of social anxiety would agree to be examined and tested. They would 1) not be aware that they have anxiety 2) they would not admit it 3) they would be terribly scared to be exposed to spotlight and observed like medical rat. I am talking this from my own experience.
On the other hand, if I have mild case of anxiety that borders with mild shyness, I would have enough courage and strength and mental force to meet strangers and allow them to monitor me and draw conclusions about me, it would not bother me much.
As for "they moved on with their life in a healthy way" Well, if you had anxiety ripping your life for 12 years, and if you have empathy (which is pre-requisite for social anxiety) would you really leave people in dark, leave them in cave and not come back and tell everyone that what they are seeing on the wall are shadows? Would you really with cold heart decided that if you suffered for 12 years being locked up in prison, that other people spend their decade and life away in prison? It would not bother you at all that someone will spend next 10 years minimum locked up in their room and respond to suicidal ideations whenever they are being bullied at work? If not, you probably never had social anxiety to begin with.
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(reddit)
> I've made major major steps,
That is great! If it helps you, for crying out loud, don't stop it! I am not talking about undermining anyone's effort. To me, it just seems that they mis-labeled their emotions as something that sounded good to their therapist, at the time when social anxiety had completely wrong name to begin with (social phobia).
Phobias are healed by exposure - and social anxiety does not go away as for example driving phobia goes away as you start to drive as much as you can, as often as you can. It was renamed to social anxiety since it is stubborn and exposure fix only panic attack symptoms, only partial side of social anxiety.
Since you said you made major steps, if you care, could you write them down, what these steps are?
For me, one major step is talking here and being prepared to be misunderstood, just as you misunderstood my topic here. Instead of fawning, shutting up and self-censorship - I know that with social anxiety we have ability to see anything from multiple points of views and angles - and since most people are ego-centric - they do not have this ability, and they will experience cognitive dissonance for our words - because they are unable to see big picture. Instead of focusing on panic, fears and embarrassment - it is about talking and explaining to people who are willing to listen. That was my major step.
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(reddit)
That is social anxiety disorder in itself - that you freeze and you get stuck. Being immobile and passive. Anxiety works that way. We listen to anxiety - while anxiety is actually lying to us. It tells us that we have to wait good enough to do something. That we must be perfect and then move on. That we are not allowed to make mistakes and appear dumb so it will attract criticism otherwise.
So the solution that our psyche does - is to appease critical other people and our own need to have diplomacy with people without conflict and confrontation - and the only way to achieve this goal is to develop avoidance, withdraw, self-censor ourselves, shut up and in isolation.
Anxiety has credibility of car salesman. It is rooted in toxic shame - deep held belief that we are unworthy, while other people are superior so we must trust and believe others whatever they say. With such belief - we do nothing, because others have plethora of instructions what is best to do - and they are conflicting themselves. So again - we resolve this chaos by doing nothing.
I see solution in bringing back self worth inside us. That we are ok with making mistakes and making fool of ourselves. And since our brain is wired with trauma, that we rely on our common sense to get us active again. This means moving on in accordance with our own intuition, knowledge, own experience and our super ego as guidance system - instead of other people.
I realized that with self worth inside me - there is a rising question what is definition of "success" and good life anyways. Having a lots of money might come from impressing people - but if I have now self worth inside me - perhaps having villa and expensive car is no longer option to over-compensate confidence.
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(6.2.2022)
There is video on YouTube where you can watch early research of Social anxiety in 1990s lecture about CBT and social anxiety. Video is called "Recovery from Social Anxiety - CBT" posted by Damien and Oocie.
In the comment section of this video you can find my two hefty comments about it, detailing bit by bit about what I will try to explain here as well.
I discovered that for people struggling with mental wellbeing, faulty, incomplete and false information is very detrimental because if we follow it, we may get stuck and we will not know what is wrong. We will try to fix something that is not broken - and thus create additional damage.
What I learned in the CBT video lecture, is that early research of CBT and social anxiety was based on people who did not have social anxiety at all!
Classical CBT is now accepted as common treatment for Social Anxiety. It is focused on panic symptoms and exposure.
From my experience, CBT did indeed help to lower panic symptoms - but did not remove it entirely. And from my own experience it had side-effect: people pleasing, fawning and being pushover. It created moral injury since I would shut up and self-censor myself when someone was rude to me or accusing me of something that is not true. CBT does not address trauma. CBT does not address narcissistic abuse. CBT does not address PureOCD intrusive worry loops. These are the most detrimental effects of CBT on people suffering social anxiety.
What we do know now in 2022, is that CBT has actually upgraded itself. There is third wave of CBT that is focused on healing trauma and dealing with after-affects of being exposed to abusive, toxic people.
Since classical CBT is still prevalent and accepted, I would try to warn here in this topic why I think CBT was wrong and what went wrong. Also, I think medical community will never admit this mistake they did because it would cost them a lot of money - being sued for providing false and detrimental "help". To their defense, in early 1990s social phobia was relatively new phenomena and never been researched properly.
My argument is - that people who really had social phobia/anxiety - would not accept and agree to be studied like medical rat. They would refuse to be in spotlight and be scrutinized to questions and monitoring - since this is the exact fear that is causing the problem in the first place. They would kindly reject them. So people who accepted the research had tolerance to withstand examination, group settings and interrogations. This is why I claim the whole research was faulty in the start.
Unfortunately, CBT developed conclusions about social anxiety based on these early 1990s studies. And thus now we have wrong directions and instructions such as myth that people with social anxiety lack communication skills. This is untrue, since it is the opposite - they posses superior skills due to deep empathy and ability to put themselves in other people shoes and care how their words affect other people. Another faulty conclusion was that people with social anxiety are focused on themselves - and the CBT advice is that you focus on other people. Wrong again. People with social anxiety are extremely zoomed onto other people. In fact, it is so close that it is in the way. We should back up, zoom out and focus on our own self worth which is exported onto other people due to internalized toxic shame. Another false conclusion is focus on the symptoms. Analysis leads to paralysis. It does not help to focus on panic attacks. PureOCD advice tells us that if we signal our brain something is dangerous - the brain will throw more things to be afraid, more things to solve and thus we are caught in OCD intrusive worry loop neverending cycle.
The purpose of psychology is to teach us how to manage life and how to respond to life problems on our own - without being dependent on external help, advice and instructions constantly. That we learn how to catch a fish, instead of being provided to us by others. CBT early research saw that shy people who were labelled as socially anxious can manage their life - because they do not have trauma that blocks them, so CBT focused only on symptoms. Something that is great solution to shy and mildly shy people. However it is detrimental advice to people with social anxiety.
Early CBT research on social anxiety focused on the tip of iceberg, and totally ignored the chunk of ice that lies beneath the water, under the surface.
The label "phobia" is also very indicative that medical experts were not aware at the time what they were dealing with. It was renamed in late 1990s into "anxiety" since it was obvious that social anxiety does not go away by frequent exposure to feared object, as all phobias are treated.
People with social anxiety have superior communication skills but it is buried under the surface, like water on Mars. It is not visible due to fears and anxiety and toxic shame that is preventing those skills from materializing in real world.
This is all complex - but it goes even more complex from this point. Social anxiety can be divided in severity and harshness. There can be mild anxiety - imagine it like people being trapped inside a building. Also there are people who have worse symptoms - imagine it like people being trapped in a cave. Some people are trapped near the surface, some are trapped deep inside, like those boys from Taiwan (Tham Luang cave rescue). The process of helping each of these is totally different in its complexity and accessibility. Early CBT research ignores this fact and lumps it all together.
So the help that is available to people with mild shyness and mild anxiety will be detrimental to people who have complex issues with anxiety. Psychology and psychiatry should always be one step ahead of patient, in order to guide him out. In this case, they let the patient to lead the doctors - and now we are stranded with faulty research that was based on shy people, not social anxiety.
There is third wave of CBT - and this is the correct way to deal, heal, listen and understand social anxiety: "DBT teaches the skills to accept and tolerate distress and to manage disturbing or provocative emotional stimulation. The process involves gaining behavioral control, then experiencing rather than silencing emotional stress—discussing and accepting past traumatic experiences, and tackling selfblame and dysfunctional thoughts."
"CPT (cognitive processing therapy) This therapy helps people to address and change negative, fear-based thoughts—referred to as stuck points—that recur after traumatic events so that they feel calmer and safer. The stages of CPT are designed to help the individual understand how trauma has affected their brain"
quotes from DK How Psychology Works - The Facts Visually Explained
"Humanistic therapies This group of therapies encourages an individual to resolve their problems and issues and achieve greater fulfillment by recognizing, understanding, and using their own capacity to develop. Humanists believe that not only is a person capable of making changes and achieving personal growth but it is their responsibility to do so. This idea places the individual fully in control of their choices and goals."
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@Raghu N It comes down to self-validation. Trauma means we were exposed to dangerous toxic people who instilled toxic shame inside us and fear, they traumatized us. So now we reject ourselves as person, this is what trauma does, it sling shots our soul out of our body and we hover above it, like zombies, triggered and with flashbacks, that keeps us stuck in chronic worry and hypervigilance, and alert if the original trauma will may happen again, and we over-react to people or events that are similar to the original trauma.
Self-validation means that you accept yourself fully. That you accept your fears, flaws, mistakes, everything about yourself. This way you will own your body back. Your soul will return where it naturally belongs. Point is that you bring self worth back inside yourself. Toxic shame and trauma makes our self worth being exported into other people. That is why other people anger and emotions bother and affects us on deep level - because we are living our life through other people. That is trauma bonding and it is social anxiety by definition. Trauma makes us trauma bond with others. So we distrust our choices, we do not believe in our decisions, we think other people are gods and superior - toxic shame is hallucination it makes us believe other people withhold ultimate truth about anything in life and we must obey their words and opinions and take anything they say as our own personal command. Break trauma bonding by starting to doubt everything. Doubt other people, their intentions, their words, doubt yourself, doubt your conclusions, doubt your perceptions. Descartes Evil demon hypothesis talks about this. His famous saying is that we start to think when we start to doubt. Socrates said long time ago that there is no ultimate truth. The world is dualistic - anything can be yin or yang, depending how you look at it and from what position.
Learn about complex trauma, CPTSD. Start with Polyvagal theory - google it in order to understand emotional dysregulation and amygdala hijacking. Start with that.
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(7.2.2022)
In my case Exposure helped to reduce panic attacks and palpitations, heart beats - however it did not help to remove panic in certain situations involving hysterical people and criticism. So without social anxiety symptoms (that I see as a cocoon, protective mechanism immature ego defense learned in childhood as reaction to narcissistic abuse) I developed totally new set of defensive mechanisms: fawning, people pleasing, being pushover. This is why social phobia was renamed into social anxiety - because it is not something you get rid of by exposure, as phobias are treated - being exposed to feared object.
Social anxiety is part of Complex Trauma, being exposed to unrecognized mentally ill person while growing up, when child brain was unable to discern it is unfair that someone close to you nags and complains and nitpick on your every single mistake relentlessly 24/7, being exposed to relentless criticism. So our psyche makes a balance between our personality and incoming toxic shame from other people - by developing social anxiety as protective mechanism. Toxic shame makes our self worth exported onto other people since we believe we are inept and incapable to manage life and that our opinion does not matter. So I would delve with CPTSD rather than exposure which would be great to come afterwards, after the original trauma is understood and learned how to respond in healthy way to triggers and flashbacks.
Also, I dislike using people like pawn in order to heal my anything. It feel unethical and wrong to use up people and then brush them off after we are finished with them. It is a little bit ego-centric and narcissistic. People are not our toys or wood that we scratch our claws whenever we feel the need to sharpen them.
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Psychologically speaking if we develop some routine to battle anxiety, it will lead to PureOCD issues. You signal your brain that there is some kind of danger - and the brain is built that way to protect us, so it will give us more things to be afraid of - and we will increase our routines, defense mechanisms and it is endless loop. We end up with chronic worry and hypervigilance as something "normal" but it gets more complex and difficult with time and annoying and exhausting.
Social anxiety is part of Complex Trauma - so I would focus on Toxic shame as the virus inside us that is not recognized - I would focus on it, to recognize it, to understand what it does and how to remove it. Toxic shame is ingrained belief that we are inept. We learned this in childhood when we were exposed to unrecognized mentally ill people who were too critical to us. So our psyche exported our self worth in other people. This is called external reference locus of control and we are not aware of this process. We only experience it in form of that other people judge us and that they hate us and we are very aware of their emotions and words and we can't shake it off. This is trauma bonding. It sounds complex - but solution is very simple - it is about bringing back self worth inside ourselves. This means being ok with being scared, with having shaky voice, being ok with having mistakes, we know we do our best in any given moment and that mistakes are natural part of life, being ok with our flaws, just accepting our symptoms and persona and quirks in complete without any conditions. With self worth inside us, we no longer see other people as someone superior of someone who hold ultimate truth about anything in life, we can doubt them, we can doubt our own thoughts, since anxiety lies to us. And we can be on par with other people - which means having natural reactions. If I shut up and self censor, I can speak my mind, speak out voice out elephant in the room. If I always fawn, I can show my temper once in a while, I can express my anger if I always stifle it down, depending on situation.
Being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse causes brain damage. Trauma is stuck inside our body. Of course we will have social anxiety. It is natural reaction to abnormal situations, abnormal people and abnormal events. I would not pathologize it. And once self worth is inside us - we can see that maybe it is ok to be "shy" and "introverted" if that feels ok to me. I would realize that labels disable and that we create self prophecy if we jump too quickly to conclusions - and thus get biases, logical fallacies, mental shortcuts. I would stop hiding it. Being HSP is nothing to be ashamed. It is not weakness. Society jumps to quick conclusions too - it is easier to come up with quick conclusion than to spend time thinking about something deeply - society works that way, it is accepted as norm to be quick and to resolve any vague situations quickly as possible. Unfortunately this also means that this creates false conclusions and delusions. And both society and anxiety works in this system of over-reaction and pathologizing something that we never actually explored in the first place.
I see social anxiety as symptom of trauma but also as gift of being sensitive and empathic enough to care about society. I would start seeing it in positive light, rather than some wart that needs to be destroyed and scorned and afraid of. When we pathologize ourselves, we delve in toxic shame - and it created more neurosis, it created additional anxiety, it is not healthy.
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If we do not address toxic shame - our Confirmation Bias will prevent us from knowing our values. Also Toxic shame exports our self worth in other people - thus we have no identity. It is exported in other people. That is the root cause of people pleasing - that we live our life through other people. I would focus on toxic shame - ingrained belief that we are inept and that our opinion does not matter. Toxic shame is hallucination. We have intrinsic values inside ourselves, there is database of gathered knowledge inside us in form of Super-ego. This is all non-accessible to us with toxic shame internalized and thus external reference locus of control leading our life.
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I would also add that people pleasing is fawning, if it is done chronically and automatically - it is sign of Complex Trauma, and I would investigate it more in that direction, too. We have to understand why we seem to choose being pushover and trying to fix other people. It is not a choice, it is not our fault and it is programmed behaviour response from childhood. Out whole body is wired, our body is drugging us into people pleasing. It releases hormones and chemicals - that affect our mood and thinking proces; so we feel good when we fawn and it feels shameful and guilt ridden when we do something correct - such as saying no when we honestly cannot do something.
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Nice guy is not choice. It is trauma response, it is called fawning. There is psychological reason behind it but it is not pandemics. It is trauma, complex trauma, being exposed to unrecognized mentally ill person when growing up, being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse when our child brain was unable to process reality as adult - so child brains internalized toxic shame as immature ego defense mechanism. The child cannot know psychology, this is instinct reaction from child point of view- so it is not something you can remove by being aware of it, by conscious choice. It is ingrained mental imprint stemming from childhood. It takes more than talking about it. Toxic shame exports our self worth onto other people. Then we live our life from other people emotions, mindset, their opinions, their words - are seen as commands. We obey to others, see them as superior because our toxic shame exported our self worth into others, this is called external reference locus of control. Thus we end up being nice guy - someone who adjust their mindset, rules, perceptions and actions in accordance with other people, since our worth is inside them it is not inside us. Bringing back self worth inside us, intrinsic value locus of control means being ok with ourselves - accepting our mistakes and flaws, not pathologizing our "shyness" or "introversion" as society might label us to ashame us. Not pathologizing our choices and decisions and opinions. Just being me, come as you are. IT is about realizing other people can be wrong. We can be wrong. We can doubt other people and we can doubt our own anxiety. We will be less naive and we will start to notice Machiavellians out there such as Jordan Peterson and Masculine Alpha male channels that appear to help us by ashaming us for being nice - now we can realize that they are marketing ploy and that they are making money out of people who are confused, who have toxic shame due to childhood psychological abuse and who seek external validation about anything in life. Instead once we realize toxic shame is hallucination we can accept ourselves as we are. And see other people criticism as a mean of control, shame as a tool to control others, guilt as emotions used to gaslight us into doing whatever they want us to do.
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Yep. Toxic shame makes us export our self worth into other people and we end up with external reference locus of control. Then we seek help to stop being nice guys - and most of information does not tell us about trauma - it provides with more toxic shame and instructions from external resources - which does nothing to prevent people pleasing at all. It is about bringing back self worth inside ourselves, trusting our decisions, mistakes and flaws. Without pathologizing our feelings and emotions, no matter what other person may labl them, guilt trip us or ashame us.
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(reddit)
I hate drugs. I dislike prescription drugs (Except aspirin). I hate illegal drugs - I would support Sharia laws. I don't take alcohol. I hate smoking. I dislike any form of addiction.
With that being said, in the summer of 2020 I put nice flowers on kitchen table that I chopped off from my garden. I will not tell what sort in order to discourage people from testing it on their own. What I did not notice is that there are flowers seeds popping out whenever I would slightly shake the desk when I prepared food or drink. I would not notice that small seeds end up in toast and soda.
So... I ended up with not being able to sleep. I was having visions at night - I could see how communication is working in 3D - I would see how the process is going on among people - it is like modem - receiver and decoder. That you need to understand other person by learning their words and what they mean when they use certain words and concepts. I always presume that other person thinks the same explanations as I do - but this is not the case. And we end up with misunderstandings. I think this is connected to social anxiety - both my vision and being exposed to LSD experience. I also had other visions and I noticed that I had paranoia hidden in my thoughts, now it was in the prime focus. I was not aware paranoia had so much space in my brain, my logic would stifle it as unimportant. As we know cluster A where social anxiety residues contains OCD and paranoia sister disorders in is as well. So the doctors were right to group these together.
Later I noticed that the experiences I had were related to the flowers. I googled it and I found out that seeds would cause effects same as LSD. Since it can cause death, I would not recommend this to people to try psychedelics without supervision or without self control.
It is funny that me disliking drugs actually kept me in mental prison - and that circumstances lead me to it. The visions I had were of all knowledge and information coming at me very fast, similar to the final dream scene sequence from 2001 Odyssey, with all colors zooming at us at fast speed. I would be aware of the moment when you go to sleep and you feel like falling - I would stay in that moment for long time, it was scary. I had vision of after life - that we end up in empty space and we have to pick up our own story to create universe to inhabit with our own thoughts. Later I learned that mystics and ancient myths explain our Cosmos in this way. This vision helped me to realize later on that social anxiety is the state of vagueness - and we float in the space trying to grab onto firm objects - and usually this is fawning and people pleasing as firm holder, or being isolated and withdrawn if we don't have to go to job as natural response to vagueness. And that we can actually shape and decide what we can grab onto it other than isolation or being pushover, seeking external reference locus of control as mean or tool to control anxiety.
I also had visions of ancient civilizations so I read about ancient Sumerians - and I learned about Zoroastrianism. Which helped me understand that I can talk truth, be honest as a way to deal with social anxiety. If I am not evil person, and if I have no hidden evil agenda behind anything I do - all I am left with is being honest and being authentic - no matter if someone might label me as weirdo, stupid or boring. This is intrinsic value locus of control and it heals toxic shame. It is a tool to deal with social anxiety in healthy way - to be yourself, to come as you are in social situations, with panic attacks without battling panic, accepting fears and doing it anyways.
Later I learned that Nikola Tesla had the same process of seeing his ideas in 3D - he would see them as hologram and he could rotate it and zoom in to see how it works. That is exactly how I saw communication process that helped me understand how society works basically and why there are misunderstandings. That we need to have modem and decoder - that listening means soaking up other persons vocabulary and actually learning their language so to speak. With social anxiety we have empathy already inside us, but we do not understand this process of communication from mechanical point of view. Without this knowledge we would be prone to fawn and people please as response to other people due to unperceived miscommunication issues. It is like, you presume other people hate you, so you perceive other people as dangerous - without actually checking them out and scientifically learning them, are they really dangerous as they appear in our socially anxious trauma based brain?
The experience compelled me to read about psychology, philosophy and 6 months later I learned about Complex Trauma which helped me to understand social anxiety from original point where anxiety begun with in the first place. I learned concepts such as external reference locus of control which helped me to put already known concept of toxic shame in the correct frame of reference - finally I could realize toxic shame effect and see it as hallucination.
I also learned that Descartes had similar experience as me. He called it Three Dreams which later helped him to formulate his world famous philosophy of Dubito Ergo cogito, ergo sum. I trust Rene Descartes probably ate something in that cottage, or unwittingly drink some water with seeds inside it - and he experienced psychedelics then.
Graham Hancock in his book "Supernatural" says that early people who draw cave art paintings were not capable to draw, they had brain and capability of dog. He claims early men probably take some psychedelics - and this helped human brain to develop into ability to be conscious as human being.
Maybe this is the reason why psychedelics were banned in 1970s. It was too risky back then for people to upgrade - it is easier to control other masses of people when they behave like herd mentality and groupthink.
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.
"the point is not to try to explain reality but to transform it."
Yes, but human mind is explaining it. And it explains it in faulty manner, with quick shortcuts. Wayne Dyer said: "You are doomed to make choices. This is life's greatest paradox."
We don't have enough time to think things through and without correction, without constructive criticism, we stay stuck with Confirmation bias. We confirm what we are able to know.
Thus even though you might have noble intention to transform reality into something better - the chances are you will use the tools you know - which are limited with knowledge that is limited - thus the end result will be delusion, wrong and fallacy.
Socrates said this long time ago, there is no ultimate truth. We as human beings are not gods, we are limited and we are doomed to stay stuck in this dimension - what will seem like transformation to you, is actually only re-hashing old ideas. I don't think we are meant to transform. This is not our purpose here, we are not gods. I think this is the message from Bible.
This does not mean we cannot correct things. This does not mean we cannot explain and discuss things. This does not mean we cannot choose better options and have better decisions. This also does not mean that we are not allowed to transform anything - at least with the accepted knowledge that we will probably be wrong about it and do it in wrong way.
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(reddit)
We have ability to see everything from multiple points of views and multiple angles. Similar to novella called Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions is a satirical novella by the English schoolmaster Edwin Abbott Abbott, first published in 1884. There is free animated movie on You tube - where you can see 2D creatures getting mad and angry in communication with 3D creatures. And 1D creatures getting extremely irritated at 2D creatures when they start to communicate with them.
The same process happens with social anxiety and in communication with others. We don't like criticism and we perceive other people hate us. On the other hand, people who do not have social anxiety hate criticism and they think someone pointing a thing into something they never thought of is criticism about them as person, and their ego-centrism gets them irritated.
Therefore, I would revisit your statement: " I consequently say something really stupid" Maybe it was not stupid at all.
Have you noticed that at parties or in large gatherings, the most loudest, the most irritable, the most obnoxious people always get all the attention and praise and admiration and focus? They say the most stupidest thing on Earth and people love them. They are authentic, honest and they express themselves. Unfortunately, some of them scapegoat people who are silent and mock them - so they make fun or bully easy targets for amusement or a way to break the ice. Whatever. They are stupid, they act stupid and they are life of the party.
"but then I say something dumb again." Well, maybe if the other person is pouting and is unforgiving, just remember that if that clown from parties come, they would not mind of him saying dumb stuff.
This focus on other people reaction is external reference locus of control. We do it because of toxic shame. We think we are unworthy and that we are inept and that our opinion is stupid - so we speak and act in accordance what we think other people would want us to say. Then it comes out dumb.
I would work on being ok with being dumb. That you accept whatever you say as ok. You know you have empathy and that you will not mock others, that you do not have evil agenda to hurt other people. So - anything you say is not really that dumb as it may seem when we seek external validation. If I am ok with being dumb, this is intrinsic reference locus of control. It is self-validation. I would go in that direction.
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(reddit)
I find this fascinating - it is like broken picture with puzzles laying all around.
Let's look more into it, perhaps we might find the big picture here.
"I think clinically rejection is more specific" But look at their web site, it says the exact thing as I said, that it is vague. They say: "It’s characterized by extreme emotional sensitivity to being criticized or rejected, whether real or perceived." "Symptoms of rejection sensitive dysphoria are complex so it can be challenging to identify."
" I think the vagueness of what counts as rejection isn't really the focus, but rather how those forms of rejection then affect somebody" I thnk it is the opposite around. How rejection affect somebody is very clear: you cannot shake it off. I love it that they use this word "shake off" because this is how I define it myself. They say: "Some people can shake off rejection easily. For others, this feeling can trigger an overwhelming emotional response." That is correct. You cannot shake it off. It stays stuck like intrusive worry. It is intrusive thoughts. It is PureOCD.
Now - the real problem, as I see it - what exactly shocks us so much? What throws us off balance?
Look what you said: "It's a fear of being alone, being ostracized, being the odd one out" This is the point! If someone rejects me I would be happy! This would mean I would never see this person ever again! It would be the greatest day on Earth for me. It is like the garbage would take itself out by itself. :D
I think we should look into this matter with more attention and focus.
In my case, I have issue with people who are rude and hysterical. Let's say we have a job where I have to provide some service. So I will lose this job if I hang up the call and cut contact with the other person - especially if this person is connected to the boss or has high connections. Then this person needs something from you - and for certain reason you cannot do it right away, or you are afraid to do it, or you do it but it is not fast or perfect. Then they throw temper tantrum. And - you cannot shake that off. You cannot shake off their reaction from your head. It is now stuck as trigger or flashback and it plays out at night or the next day when you know you might get into contact with this person again. Now it becomes the fear, anticipation of negative event, it becomes chronic worry and hypervigilance. So - the perfect solution would be that person rejects me. But in real life this does not happen. They abuse you. They belittle you. They see you react with people pleasing and fawning and you do not defend yourself. Narcissists love this, they enjoy seeing other people suffer and being afraid. So -they do not reject you, they throw temper tantrums and they see they can control you by them being angry. So they increase their anger. Similar to Stanford Prison Experiment.
The greatest thing on Earth would be that they reject you - so you do not see them ever again in your life, or at the time while you are working and you need money to pay bills and survive.
From this perspective, I would embrace rejection.
Or less complex example - let's say I do not like parties or any large social gatherings. So I say no to colleagues or people who might appear as "friends", and they might decide to reject me from calling me ever again to anywhere. I would love it! They would not bother me ever again. Rejection is superb. ;D That's how I see it.
What other people think?
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(8.2.2022)
The poll about "What’s your biggest social fear" was huge discovery for me. It seems that most people with social anxiety have vague idea what is triggering their social anxiety.
In the thread people explained their biggest fears are: "Being rejected, saying the wrong thing, not knowing what to say, leaving home, not knowing anyone, being judged, being labeled, being humiliated, ridiculed, being embarrassed, public speaking, facial blushing, dating, being a joke, large crowds, not knowing anyone, confrontation, coming off as rude, ignoring, disappointment"
Also, I find that most official medical resources about social anxiety do not focus on triggers at all. They say the general things such as: mayoclinic: It's normal to feel nervous in some social situations. in social anxiety disorder, also called social phobia, everyday interactions cause significant anxiety
They talk about the causes of social anxiety such as genetics and environment.
I think both official medical resources and most people who suffer from social anxiety do not see wood for a tree. None of the resources nor people who suffer from social anxiety (I see this on you tube channels as well) - do not focus on the word "trigger" at all. In early day of my social anxiety (30 years ago) - yeah I would also think that "rejection" and "dating" and "saying the wrong thing" are situations that bother me the most.
But with reading many books about social anxiety, therapy and self-analysis - 30 years later on I can say that all social anxiety if observed at detail and with microscope - comes down to and narrows down to is narcissistic abuse: being afraid of violent, unkind, rude person.
As I read psychology book I came to the term called "psychological safety". That term helped me realize that this is what I seek with social anxiety. I avoid people in order to find psychological safety. I develop symptoms - as a defense mechanism in order to achieve psychological safety. We are totally unaware of this process. To us it seems as chaos and panic. But if we look under the hood - it is us trying to solve attack - real or perceived one.
When we transpose this onto how people describe their social anxiety triggers we get surprising results.
Being rejected - this means we are really afraid of someone who is rude and unkind, without empathy. Someone who does not care how their behaviour affect the target. Someone cruel. This is narcissism, being exposed to narcissistic abuse. If we treat people with kindness - and our anxiety will make sure we think about other people emotions and feelings and our actions - we are unable to be rude and unkind. So someone's reaction in form of rejection is aggression really. Being unkind and rude. Only narcissists behave like this. We are afraid and triggered by narcissistic abuse, someone who is ego-centric, violent and without empathy.
"saying the wrong thing" Another biggest fear for some people is that they will say something wrong. But let's analyze this - who is the person who will define that something is wrong? It is the other person. The other person will let us know that we said something wrong. Otherwise we would not be aware that we said something wrong. Again, our anxiety prevents us from saying anything hurtful and unkind - therefore generally speaking we are unable to say something that is considered objectively wrong. The other person is problem really. The other person is over-reacting and accusing us of saying something wrong, that they perceive as wrong. They are probably narcissistic or full of Confirmation bias, without ability to think other possibilities that they perceive as wrong. Due to toxic shame, we trauma bond with other people and we see their words as superior. Thus, we will believe anything what other person say is true and real, even when objectively they are the ones who are wrong. So we shut up and take their comment and criticism as true. We do not defend ourselves and we truly believe we said something wrong. Again, we are dealing with narcissistic abuse here - gaslighting and being exposed to smear campaign. To us it will not feel like we are correct. Since our self worth is exported in other people - we take and believe anything other people say as ultimate truth, so I will explain myself that I am wrong because I said the wrong thing. And I will define "wrong" through the lens of other person. I will not doubt that the other person may be totally wrong and draw completely incorrect conclusions and labels. Instead, I will accept their claims as true without thinking, automatically. That is external reference locus of control, trauma bonding and Stockholm Syndrome in action.
"not knowing what to say" So with this fear - I believe that other people always know what they say, and that I must always know what to say - because... other person would attack me for not knowing what to say. So basically I am afraid of aggression and rude and unkind mocking and bullying from other person - for me not being perfect. Again - this is result of being exposed to narcissistic abuse while growing up. Being exposed to unrecognized mentally ill person in my environment who criticized me constantly 24/7 relentlessly asking me to explain my mistakes - and if I provided no answer or if I was unclear - they would beat the dead dog. So now I am instructed to say the right thing - or suffer punishment. The real fear here again is fear from hysterical and unkind and rude people: narcissists.
"leaving home" I would not be afraid to leave home if I knew there would be psychological safety. If I knew 100% sure that other people would smile, be kind and nice to me - I would not be afraid to leave home. If I knew that I would not get abused, accused, scapegoated, yelled at, screamed at, attacked - I would not be afraid to leave home. Therefore behind leaving home fear lays the fear of hysterical and dangerous people who might hurt me any minute outside. The act if leaving home is therefore not problem here. It is other people who are unkind, hysterical - and those are only narcissists.
"not knowing anyone" If I knew everyone - I would know with whom I am dealing with. I would not be afraid of them since I would trust them. Since I do not know someone - this leaves space that this person is rude, unkind, violent, aggressive and can cause me pain and hurt at any minute. The real fear therefore are hysterical and unkind people- real or perceived ones. Again, narcissistic abuse behind this social anxiety trigger.
"being judged" I would not be afraid if someone tells me in kind, nice and friendly way that I wore t-shirt backwards or that I have leftover of yoghurt on my face. However if they mocked, made a scene or drama about it, if they are jumpy, nervous and unkind in their explanation - I would feel extremely scared of them. Again, normal and healthy person would not speak in unkind manner about my flaws and imperfections. Only narcissists do that. Again, behind this trigger is narcissistic abuse.
" being labeled" Again, if someone labels me as shy - if I have self worth inside me - I would doubt them, since I know that labels disable. However if this person explains that I am weak person, that I have to be strong and that shy is weakness - they are belittling me. Normal and healthy friendly person would not judge and label others in order to hurt the target. Only narcissists do this. Again - behind this trigger is narcissistic abuse and fear from hysterical and judgmental people, narcissists.
"being humiliated, ridiculed, being embarrassed" This is all fears from narcissistic abuse.
"public speaking" As mayoclinic web site says - all people feel uncomfortable speaking in public. However with social anxiety I expect that other people hate me and they will attack me. Again, normal and healthy people would not do this. Only narcissistic people do this. We are afraid of narcissistic abuse all along.
"confrontation" We would not be afraid of conflict if we knew 100% that the other person would not go into Ad Hominem and that they would not be physically aggressive. We are afraid of narcissistic abuse - hysterical and unkind people really. We would be at ease if we knew we are in psychological safety where we can express our thoughts opinions and words without being attacked for being open.
"coming off as rude" This fears stems from narcissistic abuse in childhood - being exposed to narcissist who never allowed us to express our thoughts and opinions, natural anger was not allowed. Now as adults we are afraid that we may come off as angry and narcissistic - because we were not allowed to take care of ourselves. We were programmed to fix other people and to people please them. We were instructed to take care of other people and to make life pleasant for them. So now we are afraid that we will fail to make joy in other people lives. Trauma bonding and external reference locus of control guide us to be extremely aware how we come off to other people. Their emotions are very important to us and how they perceive us to such extreme that our own opinion conclusions and perceptions are not valid. That is fear from narcissistic abuse - that other person will judge us and label us as that we are coming off rude when we say no to them. Normal and healthy person would not be angry of us when we say no to them, they would understand it.
So basically, I think many people are instructed by official medical resources into being focused on our symptoms, while they totally ignore to direct us into focus of what actually triggers our fears. As I explained here - it is fear of narcissistic abuse. The complex trauma is behind Social anxiety. We are being triggered and have flashbacks - without being aware we have them. It appears as quirks, perks and caprice to us. Instead we are instructed by official medical resources to focus on symptoms (because the whole social anxiety research was based on shy people actually, not people with social anxiety).
Start learning about narcissism and narcissistic abuse and toxic people. It is the first step to understand our social anxiety - why we are afraid and what makes us afraid. It is not symptoms. Symptoms came later. The true trigger of social anxiety are hysterical and unkind people, not having psychological safety.
I see social anxiety as perfect mechanism of our brain that makes balance between our inborn diplomacy, high empathy, high communication skills (interdependence) to balance it out with trauma from our childhood and repetition of abusive people in reality and in our perception that is distorted - where we over-react in the present time to protect ourselves from hysteria. As the balance - social anxiety is here to make peace between this battle of good and evil.
Some people found the solution to social anxiety - by becoming abusers themselves - and they become narcissists. They attack others and they are rude to others. They found this releases their anxiety symptoms. I think some of them are here on this reddit and in real life. They appear friendly, but they seek to belittle and mock and attack others who are different in any way.
If we really look in detail our biggest fear(s) - we would see that any social anxiety fear is triggered by narcissistic abuse, manipulators, emotional vampires, exploiters, Machiavellians, users. Once we are aware of this, we can handle many of our current fears with more ease.
We can convince ourselves that we are safe - and that we seek objective truth - are people really narcissistic and abusive around us. We will realize that they are not and we can ease our hypervigilance and hyperalertness.
Also, we can learn how to protect ourselves against narcissistic abuse. The Number one cure is to be authentic, honest. Narcissists hate transparency, they hate someone being objective. They like drama and conflict - so if you recognize someone being narcissists - cut them out of your life if you can. If you cannot - be honest , be transparent, document the abuse and avoid conversations with them because they live in fantasy world. It is pointless to argue with narcissists, they live to elicit emotional reactions from us, to confuse us and that we try to fix their problems.
Can you find any fear inside you that is not related to someone being hysterical, rude and unkind? Let's examine our triggers, what is under the hood. What are we truly afraid of? In the book about self esteem - you can come to your core belief by keep asking yourself "what does this mean to me"? question.
If my fear is ignoring or disappointment - if I keep asking myself what does this mean to me - it will lead us to the answer - that other person's opinion means to me a lot. I cannot shake it off. This is indication we have toxic shame - we exported our self worth in other people - and now their opinion is the most important thing in the world, because we are living our life through other people - which is by definition trauma bonding, external reference locus of control. Toxic shame is indication we were exposed to narcissistic abuse in childhood. Abuse does not mean only physical abuse. It is lack of love, lack of validation and lack of being acknowledged, hugged and recognized our opinions, thoughts and emotions.
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(reddit)
"I've been told I'm 'boring' or 'no fun' "
First of all, there is nothing to fix. You are ok just as you are. Let's get this straight. You are totally normal just the way you are.
With that being said, who are those people? I do not find you boring. So, these people are stupid. They are no authority to label you anything. Let we get them off pedastal.
There is nothing wrong with your energy. You have nothing to fix. People who advise you to fix yourself are the same as Hollywood celebrities who get messages that they need to fix themselves, and they end up looking like freaks, for endless plastic surgeries. Look at Mickey Rourke. He was great looking guy - until he started to fix himself.
You don't have to learn anything to get better or be better. You are special as you are. People can only learn from you.
No, you life is not boring. You do not have to do things if you have trauma and if you have fears and if you have social anxiety. Forcing yourself to do thing is the same record as plastic surgery - you will end up in people pleasing habits and being exploited.
There is no point in forcing yourself - until you accept yourself as you are. When you do that, when you trust yourself as you are, with your flaws and mistakes - then something will happen inside. You will really start to change. But it will not be change to impress other people. It will not be change to wear a mask and to be something you are not. It will be change in direction to be yourself as you are.
When you are ok with yourself, you will make other people to make the effort and try things you like, to like along with you. As oppose to pretend to be something you are not and going along with herd mentality and groupthink.
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(reddit)
Excellent points.
I focused on outside triggers because of two reasons: 1) most people (including official medical experts) are not aware of outside triggers. I call them External factor. 2) We are programmed during childhood abuse to blame ourselves automatically. It feels wrong to point fingers onto others. Thus we have no idea that there is External factor. We perceive the world from ourselves- we are good, nice, kind, empathic people - and we really do not believe there are bad and evil people out there. Yes, we read it in newspapers, we see it in fiction, we have some experiences from our life when we are not in our comfort zone. But yet, no matter what, we honestly do not comprehend that there are truly evil people out there. We are hypnotized into fallacy of heaven's reward. We think evil will take care of itself, by magic, by karma - or we might go into another extreme and have rage and resentment on everything that moves.
So my focus on External factor is to wake us up from hypnosis and coma - so we can understand that there was trauma in our past that's where we have now social inhibitions.
Then, we can look into Complex trauma and make focus to answer questions that you marked as important.
What I learned up until now about Complex trauma that in the end - after we have done our journaling (I am doing blogging myself - so I can leave people my thoughts) - that what we end up is self-validation as central issue, central healing, central solution for those questions you have wrote. Abuse means we were not validated. There was no love. So - antidote is self-validation and love. Being ok with being ourselves as we are, with our mistakes and flaws included, and trusting our own common sense, so that we do not need outside external instructions and guidance for every single decisions in our lives.
And if you look at your questions - you will see that they are all coming from outside triggers, third parties. We are ok just as we are. We are HSP - we are naturally inquisitive, intelligent, empathic, we over think and we see things from multiple dimensions. There is nothing to pathologize here.
Let's walk through your questions about inner triggers: "why are these triggers for me?" Yeah, why we reacted in such over-reaction? How come other people - perhaps our siblings reacted in non-social anxiety way, while we withdrew? It is because we are like flower waiting to get insect take away our pollen :D We were set up to end up with social anxiety in uncaring and narcissistic world. We were sensitive to begin with to notice details and to feel things deeply and to process stimuli. This part is normal and healthy and there is nothing to fix here. But what happens if we have someone close to us who is rude, who see us as object, who does not care how we feel, who tells us that we have to toughen up. Someone who perceives our inborn ability to feel things deeply as weakness and label us as weird, shy and introverted or sissy? So on one hand we have normal deep processing of the world - and on the other hand we have External factor in time of age when our brain was not developed enough to discern narcissism and psychological abuse as abuse and as something that is coming from unrecognized mentally ill person and something that is coming from person who is unable to share love - since they had narcissistic environment when they were growing up. So these triggers were for me because we were exposed to External factor (abusers, users, exploiters, narcissists, psychopaths, sociopaths, emotional vampires, Machiavellians).
"What kind of trauma/hurt have I experienced that cause me to expect these negative things from people?" Trauma was not our fault. It was not our choice. We are not guilty for what happened to us. It is External factor.
"What bad memories/feelings are trying to come up when I am triggered?" It is flashbacks, flash bulb images - and they are all created from External factor: people screaming at us, nagging, complaining, mocking us, putting us down, hysterical people, their over-reactions, slapping, abuse. Again, External factor.
"How can I safely let them out" If I put it like that, without realization - you are already putting focus on external factor, outside triggers, third parties. You are giving away your power because you think other people are able to control your mood, emotions and your triggers. This is similar to people on you tube who are talking about toxic people or narcissists in a way that we have to go in war against them. As I said, self-validation is the only healthy way out. When we have self worth inside us, we will become repellent for narcissists. They can't stand objective people, transparency and people who voice out the elephant in the room. Our actions of being authentic and honest are the only way to remove Sisyphus rock away. And since we have social anxiety - this means we have high empathy inside us - we can use this natural inborn ability in our advantage. This means seeing and observing past trauma, people who wronged us as injured people who were abused themselves. They did not have reddit to learn this. They chosen to engage in Fight response in order to survive in this world. We've chosen Fawn response and passivity as tool to our inborn diplomatic skills and interdependence. With social anxiety we shut up and self -censor. That is emotional baggage. With self worth inside us we can alarm and alert other people when they cross their boundaries. So - it is External factor all the time. It is not us. It is not our symptoms that are primary focus here. Social anxiety in its name has "Social". This means we value social extremely high, we put high priority in socializing, in people and in relationships. They mean a lot to us, more than we care about ourselves. We were born this way, it is natural for us. I would not pathologize or try to correct this. I would go along with Wu Wei and incorporate this - by being observant of outside triggers.
In the end - it is about being ourselves, as we are, without changing anything inside us that is not blocking us from living our lives. For example - if I overthink - this is because as HSP we are like canaries - we were born with traits to warn others about danger. Our body is wired to overthink. So - I would not fight this. On the other hand - if I fawn and if I shut up when someone is rude or accusing me of something untrue - shutting up and self - censorship is wrong, it is detrimental for myself and I leave space to get more bullied in the future. I would work on letting my ideas and voice outside. We are more intelligent than other people. We were meant to share our ideas with the world. And if we look from trauma point of view - trauma shut us up. We were not born mute. So mutism is unnatural.
I see this silence and shutting up as the only blockage inside us that is inner trigger. We got to start talking and expressing our ideas out.
I noticed that not only we experienced abuse in the childhood - but that we attract narcissists in our adult lives like moth to a flame. So we attract people who makes us shut up. This is something that follows us like the baggage - someone hovering above us and shutting us up.
You can shut up other human being by dehumanizing him. Invalidating him. This is done through guilt tripping, guilt and shame. Guilt is used to control us and shut us up. Again, it is external triggers, third parties that mess us up.
We did not choose to shut up and to stop expressing ourselves. It really is nothing to us be blamed about. We are not victimizing ourselves. We really are victims here.
So if I start to pathologize my triggers and try to fix myself - I am telling myself, I am sending myself message that I invalidate myself. That I must be perfect in order to be healthy and in order to accept myself. That will never happen because none person is perfect. We are all undone and bizarre in our own way - everyone just hide it well (The Breakfast Club, 1985).
This is why Social anxiety official therapy is doing disservice to us. We genuinely want to heal and get better, but doctors are focusing on our symptoms and our behaviour - and they send message that we are wrong by default. They are thus blaming us for the abuse. As if it was our choice. And they are sending message that we must fix ourselves in order to be accepted by society and ourselves.
For example, classical CBT concluded that we are shy and we lack communication skills because we do not look into people eyes and we appear weird to people. Well, if I went through relentless criticism 24/7, being exposed to adult hysteria which my child brain was unable to process other than internalizing toxic shame and developing immature ego defense mechanisms - you bet I will avoid people and not looking them in the eyes. It is totally normal reaction to abnormal situations, abnormal events and abnormal people. I would not change it. I would accept it. I don't look in people eyes, ok, so be it. That is how I am now, I am someone who does not into people eyes. And magic happens - when I accept myself like that - I will no longer have inhibitions and I will actually look in people's eyes.
So inner triggers - they are all healed and covered by self-validation and self-acceptance, come as you are. You have nothing to fix.
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(reddit)
Thanks.
Yep, start with: Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker He says: "Emotional flashbacks are intensely disturbing regressions [“amygdala hijackings”] to the overwhelming feeling-states of your childhood abandonment. When you are stuck in a flashback, fear, shame and/or depression can dominate your experience. as Goleman’s work shows, amygdala hijackings are intense reactions in the emotional memory part of the brain that override the rational brain. These reactions occur in the brains of people who have been triggered into a 4F reaction so often, that minor events can now trigger them into a panicky state. External triggers are people, places, things, events, facial expressions, styles of communication, etc., that remind us of our original trauma in a way that flashes us back into the painful feelings of those times. Sometimes all unknown adults can trigger us into fear even when there is no resemblance to our original abuser[s]. We can often find ourselves in a flashback without ever having seen the “flash.” One common sign of being flashed-back is that we feel small, helpless, and hopeless. Another clue that we are in a flashback occurs when we notice that our emotional reactions are out of proportion to what has triggered them."
Also, Elaine Aron "The Highly Sensitive Person" In her book she says all this that I try to convey here - that social anxiety is normal reaction to abnormal situations, abnormal people and abnormal events. We are ok just as we are. There is nothing to fix. We appear different because we are HSP - we process everything on much deeper level than most of people. Most of people will get annoyed by us, it is because they hate teachers and instructors and being told what to do, and they hate criticism
Which is funny - since number one fear of socially anxious people is criticism. While in reality it is the other way around - other people hated our criticism, then they shut us up by their criticism, and now we are stuck in having phobia from criticism. They used our weapon against ourselves and we are stuck with it. In her book, Elaine explains that to accept ourselves means being ok with criticism - and we can only do that by having self worth inside us. And since other people places toxic shame inside us - we cannot place self worth inside us, where it naturally belongs. Toxic shame is being exposed to relentless criticism when growing up. BF Skinner said: "Society attacks early, when the individual is helpless."
He summarized social anxiety in this sentence.
So we can remove toxic shame and place self worth inside us with the help of Elaine Aron, she said: "Sooner or later everyone encounters stressful life experiences, but HSPs react more to such stimulation. If you see this reaction as part of some basic flaw, you intensify the stress already present in any life crisis. This deeper processing of subtle details causes you to consider the past or future more. You "just know" how things got to be the way they are or how they are going to turn out. It can be wrong, but your intuition is right often enough that HSPs tend to be visionaries, more conscientious, cautious and wise people. It is important not to confuse arousal with fear. And often we think that our arousal is due to fear. We do not realize that our heart may be pounding from the sheer effort of processing extra stimulation. I really suggest trying to view it as neutral. HSPs must spend far more time trying to invent solutions to human problems just because they are more sensitive to hunger, cold, insecurity, exhaustion, and illness. Since most non-HSPs do not seem to enjoy thinking about such things, they assume we must be unhappy doing all that pondering. Spend enough time putting yourself out there in the world - your sensitivity is not something to be feared. Carl Jung believed that when highly sensitive patients has experienced a trauma, they had been unusually affected and so developed a neurosis. Preferring toughness, the culture sees our trait as something difficult to live with, something to be cured. HSPs differ mainly in their sensitive processing of subtle stimuli. This is your most basic quality. The way to come to tolerate and then enjoy being involved in the world is by being in the world. But what is fun? Be careful not to let the non-HSPs in your world define that for you. For many HSPs, fun is reading a good book or gardening. Strategies for Overarousal: Witness your overarousal. Love your overarousal."
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(reddit)
" the pain and negative emotions are still around, like physically in my body"
Yep, This is called trauma being trapped inside our body. When our hands shake - Classical CBT tries to stop this, they pathologize this shakings - but this is trauma trying to get outside of us in situations when we are triggered. Dogs shake off - naturally they allow their symptoms away. And here we have doctors telling us that this is wrong, they pathologize our natural reactions to trauma, fears. This creates additional anxiety and neurosis.
"You can accept yourself as 'overly sensitive'," It is label. What I am talking here is that we realize that labels disable. We have no idea what we are dealing here actually. What we know that when we put label on something that obviously is not scientifically studied - it is not evaluated and researched - so it may be advisable to use labels with caution.
"it's important to give that past pain an outlet so that over time, the triggers become less and less strong" The point of healing Complex Trauma is that we are not emotionally dysregulated. Polyvagal theory tells us that we enter into state of hypervigilance or hypovigilance. Triggers make us spike into these states of chronic worry. I would say, if your trigger is there, this means we are reacting to something, we are in defense mode. Trauma comes down to invalidation and being in toxic environment that is not good for us. With trauma we miss red flags, we do not recognize narcissistic people - since we were raised in such environment where trauma is normalized. I would work on recognizing narcissism, narcissistic abuse and patterns we picked up, such as reacting to narcissists and engaging into conversations with them - since we are not aware it is pointless. It is about trusting our hunch and our intuition, self-validation. That I trust myself when I have feeling that something is wrong. Trigger means there is something I reject inside myself. It is usually the message that we must be strong, that we must put on a mask and pretend to be superior and that we must not show our emotions and natural reactions, that we must behave as instructed by narcissists - usually this is being silent and shutting up.
Our brain is build in this way that it will not allow us to experience pain. So we will not be able to experience pain to give it outlet in the first place. Not the original pain, original trauma that caused all anxiety as immature ego defense mechanism. So - I would say that it is ok to give outlet, but it probably will not work due to our brain.
Exposure to long term narcissistic abuse causes brain damage. We have brain injury inside us. We have wound in us. Stockdale paradox tells us that we accept limitations as they are but to be hopeful inspite of it. Behavioral activation therapy says - that we accept our fears and anxiety, that we do not fight it - that we do not try to remove it or go into civil wars against it. But that we shift focus onto tasks that we need to do, dreams that we want to do. And since our brain injury will default onto inactivity, immobility and pessimism - that we force ourselves to be active and optimistic on force. I describe this as if we step out of the car and give it a push. Since the car is stuck in the mud, the wheels are turning into one place - so our trials to deal with pain with outlets are only making wheels spinning in one place. Stepping out of the car and give it a push means - we change focus from what we cannot shake off - onto task we need to do. This would mean - if I wake up in 3am about some incident in childhood or at job and I can't fall asleep due to intrusive worries - that I rely on my common sense - and close my eyes and pretend to sleep - since this is what I am suppose to do at 3am. It doesn't matter that images and flashbacks will flash inside my mind. That is injured brain - after effect from the injury caused by narcissistic abuse. From my perspective it will seem as if I am under attack - but now with new information I understand this is trauma being stuck in my body. It is brain injury from trauma. There is nothing I can do at 3am. I cannot control events in the past. So the common sense tells me that the only thing I am suppose to do - is to shift focus from intrusive worry waves onto having closed eyes and imitating sleeping without worrying whether I will fall asleep or not. I rely on my common sense - instead of my brain. Our anxiety will lie to us. It will give us false and fake and wrong instructions. As children our child brain created immature ego defense mechanisms in order to deal with trauma. We grew up with this. While other kids learned and were being appreciated about love and caring and being hugged - we were brought up by our own child brain dealing with adult hysteria. And now we have trauma stuck inside our body and brain that is injured. So - we cannot rely on our brain to guide is, it is injured.
In psychology, this is called Cognitive Defusion. Which tells us we are not our thoughts. It is probably that solutions that we came up to deal with trauma with are probably wrong. However in the same time, we distrust ourselves. We trust our brain - which has injury and it is traumatized - and in the same time we distrust our common sense and our intuition. We have to flip this up.
This means, we start to doubt our brain, that we do not take everything for granted that we think. And in the same time that we accept our body, our symptoms and our reactions, mistakes and flaws - and see what happens. We will probably doubt other people and this will give us power to stand up for ourselves in the future situations that resemble the original trauma.
For me, to put this into example - it is being in situation where someone is hysterical, rude and violent. My default learned reaction is fawning. So with social anxiety I would never doubt another person. Whatever they say it would be my command and I would obey. I would shut up and never voice out my disagreement or objective truth what happened, I would not defend myself - I would not rock the boat, I would keep it safe and to be pleasant for the other person that they do not feel uncomfortable. Now, when I place self worth inside me, I know I do not have to shut up and I do not self-censor myself - and since I accept my fears and anxiety means I am ok if my voice shakes, if I say something stupid - but I say it. Especially if someone is talking to me - they opened the communication channel. It comes down to self-validation. That is how I would give outlet to emotional wounds. I know brain injury is wound - that is inside me and that is ingrained inside my brain. I know that it is not something I can heal with magic. I can only accept it as injury - and use advice from medical community that suggests that instead of inactivity and pessimism that I choose common sense - being active as much as I can, in the direction of what I want, instead of people pleasing and that I am optimistic on force, since my brain will default onto catastrophizing and other cognitive distortions automatically.
Brain injury and trauma affect our mood and our thinking process. Our job is to over-ride it without civil war and without stopping it. PureOCD techniques are talking about this - ERP and ACT techniques are describing this "stepping out of the car and give it the push".
I had problem with these techniques when I first learned them in 2015 - because back then I did not know about Complex Trauma. So I had no idea why my brain defaults to being scared and depressed and into people pleasing and into fawning and guilt. I did not know my body is drugging me into feeling guilt when I stand up for myself. At that time I did not know brain injury is controlling me to repeat the original trauma: being obedient, being inferior and being silent. Now when I know my brain will default my thinking into fears - I know I can rely on my common sense, intuition and super-ego inside me as guidance system.
Practically I see healing emotional wounds in Allen Ginsberg - he was pioneer of beatniks in 1950s. HE said: "Follow your inner moonlight; don't hide the madness."
Trauma healing means expressing yourself. Being yourself as you are. With mistakes, flaws and labels that the society will put on us to mock us and ridicule our identity and difference. Trauma taught us not to be different. That is the only problem - that we do not allow ourselves to be different, we do not allow ourselves to be us. So be it.
Don't dream it - be it. (Rocky Horror Picture Show)
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The point I am making - is that you write too. That you also have instructions inside you and puzzle. It is inside you. That is exit from social anxiety: that we believe ourselves, so we no longer need instructions, advice and guidance from others. Instead we lean on our self worth, super-ego inside us to guide us. That we are no longer disgusted by ourselves, our rejected parts (I am talking about parts of us that we label as boring, stupid, sissy, un-manly etc) and that we are fine with our mistakes and flaws. We have experience, we have gathered knowledge - we have inner internet database google inside us to guide us.
Narcissists, borderliners and abusers - they pretend to be guided by inside - they wear mask, they created false persona that is guiding them. Since this is unhealthy - they have huge narcissistic injury when questioned and put in doubt. With self worth as guidance - we are humble, we admit mistakes because we are not embarrassed by them, we love them. We admit we do not know something - instead of pretending to be strong and macho and super human, since we know we have flaws and that we are ok with flaws. We explain this to narcissists when they ashame us for our mistakes - instead of shutting up as we would with social anxiety and trauma.
Hysterical obnoxious and rude people seek mistakes in other people and they criticize them- with social anxiety our self worth is exported in other people - so we feel pain when criticized and when in company of difficult people and when they embarrass us and yell at us. This is because our self worth is not inside us due to toxic shame.
Toxic shame is hallucination. We were programmed to feel guilt - and now we attract toxic people because they sniff this inside us, they notice very quickly that we fawn, and thus we are excellent easy target to abuse. Childhood trauma made us into dog food for predators. Toxic shame makes us into easy targets. Toxic shame lies at the bottom of social anxiety. We got to burst it like a bubble - it is delusion. We are worthy. We are capable. We have experience. We have high communication skills buried inside us. We have intellect. We have all that we need for socializing and work and operating and managing life. Toxic shame is like veil over our face, where we see life through gaze and we think we are unable to live life because of it. That we need other people for guidance and instructions how to do something.
My post here is - that we self-validate ourselves, we have everything we always needed inside us. We do not need to seek Wizard of Oz to heal us and tell us what to do. We already have it inside us.
"If I ever go looking for my heart's desire again, I won't look any further than my own back yard. Because if it isn't there, I never really lost it to begin with…"
Social anxiety, trauma and toxic people will tells us that we are weird, stupid and boring because we do not socialize and we are not party animals. But who sets up the rule about what is cool?
"Nobody ever understands what a pioneer is doing.” — Timothy Leary
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(9.2.2022)
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"social anxiety is caused by my low self worth"
It is not low. It is non existent. Self worth is exported into other people, since toxic shame chased it away. Thus: We have no self worth..
Toxic shame make us into NPC Wojak. NPC Wojak: "The character is meant to represent people who do not think for themselves or are incapable of having an internal monologue, bearing many similarities to the terms "basic" and "normie"."
This happens because we believe deep inside that we are unworthy. And because we are forced to make decisions on daily basis - the psyche finds easy solution: that other people make decisions for us, through us. Everything pass the filter of other people - what other people think. What other people feel. What other people would approve and validate. This is all done unconsciously. We are not aware of this process called External reference locus of control, trauma bonding and Stockholm Syndrome. We try to people please others, and of course - since this is impossible and unrealistic (plethora of people means plethora of criticism and decisions) - we get social anxiety and we feel other people emotions as if our own, we get stuck in their moods and they control us very easily. They get mad, we get scared. They have problem - we try to solve their problems and to fix their problems. We do anything in our power to make their life pleasant and nice - since our self worth is inside them. We attending our self worth which is exported into other people. Classical CBT that is accepted therapy for Social anxiety does not explain this. Classical CBT tells us that our emotions are problem and that our panic attacks are very dangerous and that we must fight them. That we must expose and be around people more and more, since isolation would be very bad for us. Probably it would be bad - since our self worth would still be exported onto external. Being isolated, we would start to imagine what other people would like - and this might lead to severe delusions and illusions and schizophrenia - where severe AvPD are prone to develop. Toxic shame exports our self worth - self worth is not present inside ourselves. Therefore, self worth is not low. It is very high - but it is located outside of ourselves. With this external locus of control - we are great and attractive targets for narcissists and manipulators - who are polar opposite. They invented false self and thus they need narcissistic supply - people who would insert own self worth inside them. We are perfect match for predators who steal our self worth and keep us in exported self worth state. Thus they will have honeymoon phase where they will validate us - something we lack due to abuse and Complex Trauma experience in childhood. They will appear occasionally as friends, especially borderliners in order to hook us to be with them - and of course honeymoon period will soon be over - with their temper tantrums and drama filling the toxic environment that is soothing for our own internalized toxic shame - where we feel at home being criticized, nagged at, where we miss red flags. To us, it will appear as we have low self worth and we confide to borderliners and narcissists. They listen - not because they care or because they have genuine interest in our well being - but because of their agenda - to use personal information later on, when their mania and hysteria hour kicks in, and then they beat us up with our secrets and inner most feelings and thoughts. Again, from our point of view, and self help guru who are giving us wrong and detrimental advice - we will comprehend and have perception that we have low self worth and that we just have to do particular rituals to have high self esteem and high self worth. Of course self help guru, alpha male channels, expensive drugs and expensive therapy treatments will try to teach us how to raise our self worth. If we just toughen up - we will feel better. If we just stop being sissy - we would do anything in life. If we just stop being boring - everyone would accept us. If we just fight and throw drama - all our problems would solve. If we only find scapegoat - there would be Salvation. While in reality - our self worth is pretty high - it is only dislocated outside of ourselves. There is nothing to fix. We are being told if we just operate and fix something, we will be amazing. Similar to Hollywood celebrities who are convinced that just another plastic surgery will solve all their issues about self worth. In the same time, Machiavellians are making money out of our ignorance what is really going on.
"I don't know how to heal low self worth" DBT. Humanistic therapy. Self-validation. Writing your thoughts down. Learning psychology and philosophy and sociology. Learning about narcissism and narcissistic abuse. Learning about Dark psychology and manipulation. Accepting yourself fully, with flaws and mistakes. Trusting your common sense and asking your super-ego (gathered knowledge about what is right and what is wrong, our inner Lisa Simpsons) for guidance and instructions. Filtering out toxic people. Removing resentment - where resentment is sign of mental illness and it is illness itself. Realizing toxic shame is hallucination, illusion, delusion that appears very real to us (deep belief that we are inept and unworthy).
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There is 4th "choice" called Fawn. 4F.
It is not choice. We jump automatically because it is natural response. It is totally normal response to abnormal situation, abnormal people and abnormal events. If we pathologize ourselves, we will create additional neurosis and additional chronic worry. PureOCD tells us if we create any routine to fight anxiety and fear and perceived danger - we will create OCD intrusive thoughts loop - and our brain will throw us more sticks to follow.
How come people who don't have anxiety cope with same situations which are triggering us into 4F response? They do not follow any advice, they do not spend money on therapy and drugs nor they spend their time and energy learning some concepts and rituals. They follow their instinct.
"When not in conflict Think about how to respond to someone when you are in conflict" Is path to PureOCD, intrusive thoughts loop, hypervigilance and chronic worry. This is advice to develop severe mental illness. We never know what will happen next. Illusion of control tells us that we are not in control of externals - we cannot control other people. Thinking we can control other people is cognitive distortion. There is difference between controlling someone and being honest and genuine - and cutting contact with someone who is abusive.
"Then you will be prepared when those situations happen" Nope, then I will freeze because I will already be in state of hypervigilance and hyperalert. I will try to remember what society would like me to do, instead of relying on my inner guidance and intuition and gut. As in the movie Incident (1967) with Martin Sheen - all the passengers stuck with hooligans in train carriage did not move, they let hooligans to belittle and mock and abuse them because of societal instructions how to be good citizen and how to behave with etiquette, without allowing their natural instinct reaction against someone who is abusive.
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Abuse is not only physical. It is having shelter and being nurtured physically - but emotionally being neglected.
Complex Trauma also affect social anxiety and this will open flood gate of wrong treatment for people with social anxiety that may lead to mass law suits. That may be the reason why Complex trauma is still not recognized by official medical network.
Also, corporate and corrupted society benefits from people who are zombies, who are people pleasers and who have anxieties and fears - since this make you more easier to control- and be thrown into groupthink and herd mentality.
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Being creative and confident means accept being puny and "sissy" if I am truly inside like that. I am Not talking about being weak and passive and allowing others to abuse me. For some men perhaps not as society would label macho or manly means accepting being boring, not fun, having thoughts and opinions that popular guys would not approve - and that may include man taboo: being "sissy" and sissy-like. For example, maybe I like color purple or color amythist. Why would I deny myself to wear such shirt - just to please society that puts colors which are allowed for men?
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"Wouldn't it be cool that we didn't have to wait for the adrenaline to subside after days to get back into our non-triggered state? " This is where we get Sherlock Holmes work and workout. To me - I notice I think it is not fair that I calm down. That I must make drama inside me, that I have to suffer and be in pain but not to be victim - it is more like choosing to pout in order to strike back and to come up with perfect answer how to deflect the attack and aggression or what I perceive as aggression. As if I try to solve the situation by being jumpy nervous anxious. And if I calm down, that I would not care if someone accuses me of something. As if I am relaxed that I won't be able to say no - even though my automatic reaction is fawning and people pleasing. I feel like staying in fear and considering fight response (just considering it) will allow me to defend myself. And if I decide not to get angry or scared, that this signals me that I surrender. It is wrong learned lesson. I surrender anyways - I fawn by default. I never defend myself. I smile back to people.
Also my default reaction is to shut up and self-censor , so alarming and alerting other person when they are plain rude was big revelation to me. Learning I can speak up and that I can do that without drama and explosions, as I was taught that expressing your discomfort must go along with hysteria and screaming ( which is the reason why I shut up - to avoid repeating yelling and screaming I was exposed to in younger age).
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As I understand, we are set up to experience bullying from multiple angles. First, we are kind and nice, friendly and open - we are healthy inside. This attracts narcissists and psychopaths, they do not have this and they want our soul. The only way that they can get it - is to bully us. This means - this was not your fault, you are nothing to be blamed about, and you have no reason to hide yourself or think for a minute that there is something wrong with you. Bullies first weapon is to instill toxic shame inside us, that we are inept, stupid and wrong.
Second, bullies were abused themselves and they have social anxiety too. However, since they are broken and destroyed inside and they willingly lean on the dark side, they decided to deal with their anxiety it to attack others - easy targets: people who are kind, nice, friendly and open. So we have on one side of spectrum person who is predator and on the other side a person who desires relationships and closeness with people at any cost. They both operate from trauma.
What I am saying - you had to have some previous experience that was before this bully that set you up to believe that some parts of yourself are wrong. This is hidden and usually our brain protects us from experiencing pain - and we are not aware of this programming. Also, as kids, we could not compare ourselves with entire world - so if we grew up in toxic environment without love and appreciation and hugs and closeness and validation - we have no idea what love is. We see it on tv, in fiction, through songs and other people talking - but we have no clue what love really is. Our perception of love is distorted and based on fiction. With this state of mind - programmed in childhood we grew up without parts of ourselves not fully developed.
Think of it like every person in the world builds a secret house inside yourself. No one can see what you are building and you are not aware that you are building this house. So you cannot compare your scheme and actual house with others. You get some clues and you unwittingly make changes in your house, occasionally. People who grew up in loving environment get fantastic solid house, perfect walls and it is nice from inside and outide. We on the other hand grew up for example with a house without mirrors. Nobody told us that our house must have mirrors, and we never saw other people house how their house is looking, and we have no idea that we actually have house inside us that is building up.
Or we might build a house without electricity or plumbing. These shortages are personality disorders and or not being developed - we did not pass all Piaget's developmental stages.
So when we start to be more independent, our house shows up. If there is something that doesn't look like house should be, we will feel it - by not standing up for ourselves, and or believing other people are superior, or our walls would be too thin.
The point is that you realize that you have house inside you. It is real. And it was building up inside all of us since childhood. So your task is to build yourself a house. This does not mean that your house sucks or that your house is wrong or inept. This only means that our schema were based on wrong diagrams and wrong geometry when we were kids. It is not our fault.
So now, that we realize we have house inside - we can start making improvements - not because it is hip, or because we will be superior or because it is some additional chore. It is about realizing we have entity inside us that is our identity, personality, accumulation of all knowledge and instructions and guides that will help us - in situations like you have encountered: a bully. Imagine bully being a hurricane or tsunami, or big snow storm. Your house should stand its ground at any weather. So we do not look at bullies like enemies or dangerous people per se - we see them as phenomena that we will not accept into our house. They will pass - and we can do something to protect ourselves - as I see people gave you some advice at your topic about it. The point is - that you cannot take of implement advice if you do not realize you have a house inside you, living place, place where you are at home, where your friends can come by. And where you can come into when it is raining outside.
Think of house as your self worth. Super-ego. Think of faulty schematics of our house as toxic shame.
I got this idea of schematics and house during summer of 2020. Few months later on, I stumbled upon this quote telling practically the same thing.
Quote by C.S. Lewis: “Imagine yourself as a living house. God comes in to rebuild that house. At first, perhaps, you can understand what He is doing. He is getting the drains right and stopping the leaks in the roof and so on; you knew that those jobs needed doing and so you are not surprised. But presently He starts knocking the house about in a way that hurts abominably and does not seem to make any sense. What on earth is He up to? The explanation is that He is building quite a different house from the one you thought of - throwing out a new wing here, putting on an extra floor there, running up towers, making courtyards. You thought you were being made into a decent little cottage: but He is building a palace. He intends to come and live in it Himself.”
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"The feelings will come up on their own." Please don't get me wrong. Try and experiment and if it helps you - yeah do it, there is not single reason to stop it.
"Acknowledging these subconscious blocks " My point here is that from socially anxious point of view - we have to change the whole mentality about our blocks fears and anxiety. It is trauma actually. This means, it is triggers that are problem. Trauma triggers are like driving with your hand break on (as Maxwell Maltz put it in his great book). So with social anxiety and Classical CBT we explain our fears and blocks as something vague and something that needs incredible set of instructions and vague and difficult psychological lessons and alike. In reality they are flashbacks that influence and control our mood and behaviour. In Polyvagal theory we can see it (google image: Polyvagal theory). There is normal usual relaxed state - in green color. And then there is hyperarousal and hypervigilance in yellow and red color. These states are when we are in chronic worry. That is our blockage actually. Being triggered. Being pullout out of our normal cortex brain state into lizard brain of looking out for danger and immobility, being stuck, trying to solve intrusive thoughts, trying to solve the unsolvable, not realizing that Illusion of control tells us that we cannot control outside world and to believe that we can control other people is cognitive distortion (fallacy of change). When we are blocked - there is emotional hijacking, amygdala hijacking. We are operating from hyper-aroused or hypo-aroused state. This state is natural. It is not something you can change, mutate, transform or pathologize or turn into relaxed state. It is natural state being aroused. So the real problem are triggers. If we can manage trauma triggers - it means we will manage our blockages. What you are saying is that we change and transform our blockages - we can't, since it is normal state of being reacting to abnormal people, abnormal situations and abnormal events. Classical CBT does not understand this - and they gave us advice to calm ourselves and that our symptoms are disaster and we have to get rid of our symptoms and that we must not feel these symptoms and that we are blocked because of our symptoms of panic and anxiety and fears. Trauma tells us - symptoms are fine, there is nothing wrong with symptoms. Problem is that we have no idea what is triggering us and that we can manage our triggers instead. We really have to start looking at our relentless social anxiety that we cannot shake off as trauma. We were being traumatized. We were being neglected. We were being invalidated. This creates blockages. Blockages are side effects of trauma and trauma triggers. Also if we look at our blockages as enemy - we are fighting illusion, it is useless fight and it will result in more chronic worry and we will spend tons of money on fighting against it, trying to fix something that is working perfectly fine and as it should be working. Blockages - symptoms - panic attacks - are perfectly normal defense systems that protect us from experiencing more pain and perceived pain in the future. That is why Classical CBT is doing damage to us. It makes us feel like we are inept and freaks and weirds for having totally natural symptoms, and then it forces us to change and spend money and time and energy into rituals to handle anxiety - which in the end ends up with more additional anxiety and neurosis that there was none at the beginninig. This is why Third Wave of CBT is focusing more on self validation and accepting our symptoms. They notices that their advice is not helping and that is leads to nowhere. Self validation means being ok with your blockages and panic attacks and fears. That we accept ourselves totally as we are. And paradoxically this will un-block us, change us and transform us - because we will get back into relaxed state without amygdala being hijacked.
"these inner negative voices ... Let them express themselves" Again, when we look at this from trauma perspective - we realize these are programming, hypnosis from narcissistic abuse that is ingrained now in our brain. Long term exposure to narcissistic abuse causes brain damage. Brain injury symptom is being stuck - with pessimism, with intrusive thoughts, with urge to be perfectionist, with being afraid of mistakes and with inferiority complex due to plethora of cognitive distortions. And once again - these are all trauma based. It is not part of us. It was implanted inside us. If we start to pick on it, try to change it, try to fight it - it will create more fears and anxiety because we are signaling our brain that we are faulty, wrong and there is something horribly wrong with us. Which means more of intrusive negative voices, it is endless loop. Solution to brain injury is to accept it and to shift our focus on our dreams, choices, decisions and tasks that we need to do that we would not have time to do or we would forget to do them. Brain injury means passivity, immobility and being stuck - while being healthy means being active and forcing ourselves to do things that our own common sense says it is healthy for us. Since we cannot wait for our brain to start working again - because it is injured - we have to rely on our common sense and super ego to guide us instead, and to be optimistic on force. In this way we help our brain to work in areas where is has been injured and where it cannot operate. We take manual over-ride.
That is how I see it. It is about totally changing all the messages that we were given about social anxiety - that did not involve tips and instructions regarding Complex Trauma. Social anxiety is part of Complex Trauma. It has nothing to do with symptoms, and panic attacks per se. That is side effect of bigger entity, mother ship that is hovering above social anxiety.
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(reddit)
"I'm afraid of an interaction ending and the other person thinking "what the f*ck was wrong with them," I don't expect people to point out my awkwardness, but I know they notice it, and that's the thing that gets me."
Yeah, but look at it more deeply. This person thinking something that is not objective reality - it is in a way hysterical and rude. You do not define it like that - but let's analyze this with microscope: If you were kind and nice, if you acted totally normally - and the other person think something negative about you - their conclusions are delusion. They are not based on reality. This other person is hallucinating their reality. And they are rude for being passive aggressive. They have issue but they never told you in your face what is bugging them, so they are not honest with you. That is some sort of vague rudeness. They hold blame on you - and you have no idea that they do. That is rude!
As I understand - you have issue about other person thinking of you in negative way that you have done something wrong and that you have hurt them, but you don't know this if they think this. Right? You said at the beginning "I know that's their problem, not mine." But if they are not honest and they have something against you - and this potential blame bothers you - it means it is your problem. You see it as problem.
So I see two problems here: 1) Your definition of rude and hysterical people are that it means people screaming, yelling and being aggressive lunatics. But as I said, if someone is passive aggressive - this is form of hysteria and rudeness. 2) You are afraid of what other person is thinking about you, you are afraid they notice you are being "weird" and that they will judge you and form negative opinion about you behind your back. Again - this is very rude and hysterical behaviour from that person. Normal, healthy person does not hold grudges. And if they have issue they talk it out and tell in your face that there is problem, or they will casually mention it in a conversation, perhaps camouflage it as a joke. Rude and hysterical people will turn it into a hidden war, with explosive and artillery ready. And that is what is bothering you and that is where your social anxiety comes from - being stabbed in the back by people who think badly of you, based on their misinterpretation what you did or say. Again - if this person plans to hurt you - this person is rude and hysterical.
We miss red flags. With social anxiety being based on trauma - we have no idea what emotions we feel. We cannot discern wood from a tree and we take other people's opinions as our guideline and instruction. This means - who cares if they are hurt anyways? If they have messed up narcissistic mind that is perceiving hurt and pain when in reality was none - these people have serious issues to solve. If we are bothered by it, if we cannot shake off what other person is thinking about us, in potentially negative way - this is complex trauma by definition. We are trauma bonded with other people. We have toxic shame inside us - learned programming in childhood that we are weird and inept and stupid - so our self worth is being exported into external reference locus of control- and then we want other people to be happy with us - since our self worth is inside them. But from our perspective - this is normal. There is no problem with other people. From our perspective we were not traumatized, it is normal way how world works - that other people emotions thoughts and opinions are important - and we base our moods and behaviour on other people - what they will think about us. We have no clue that this is because our self worth is inside other people.
Exported self worth is sign of trauma. There had to be some programming and exposure to neglect and messages that we are not worthy - that made our self worth relocate and instead we got toxic shame inside us.
Classical CBT will tell us that our symptoms are problem- and we will pathologize our worries, fears and panic attacks. We will spend money, time and energy in fixing our symptoms - which are operating just fine and as they should - based on trauma and toxic shame that propels them.
Instead, DBT and Humanistic therapy tells us that we work on bringing back self worth inside us, where it belongs naturally.
This means - that you are ok with being wrong. That we are ok with having mistakes and flaws. That we are ok with being awkward. And that we do not block it. We are nice, friendly, kind people. We do not have evil agenda to hurt other people - therefore there is nothing wrong with us. We are not weird, awkward or unworthy or stupid. There is nothing wrong with us. If other person thinks we are awkward - from socially anxious mind we will blame ourselves immediately and feel guilty. With self worth inside us - when other person thinks we are awkward - we automatically know that this person has not idea what evil person is, their definitions and explanations and perceptions are messed up. They have trauma of their own and they are wrong - not we.
The way I see it, your trauma is that you think that if someone is rude, that it is ok and it does not bother you. It should. If someone is rude, it should concern you. You do not deserve mistreatment. You do not deserve if someone is rude to you, while you are being kind to them. It is a huge problem is someone is rude. You however brush it off, you said: "When people are rude, I know that's their problem, not mine." It is your problem too. If someone is rude - and if you shut up - they will be more rude - because they see that you do not react. It is like you give green light to bullies to bully you even more.
Again, this is trauma - that we are being normalized to accept abuse as something normal.
"If someone's screaming at me for an unreasonable reason I certainly won't enjoy that, but that's not what I'm afraid of" You should! You should be afraid. If someone is unreasonable, this person is psychopath, narcissists. They are very dangerous people. Some of them commit crime and homicide. If you are not feeling fear for someone being hysterical - it means you are being programmed into learned helplessness. Our fears are natural signal that there is something wrong. You have no fear at all. That is also trauma.
Polyvagal theory tells us that we react in two ways: hyperarousal and hypoarousal. Both are reaction to trauma.
Your response is hypoarousal - you feel nothing in situations where you should. This is called Freeze and Flight response.
So yeah, I would check information about Complex Trauma. I think you have some answer there. It is called Complex for a reason. It is not straighforward. Toxic shame is also very slick and hidden and hard to recognize when you are not aware of what is really going on.
I see social anxiety as transparent black veil covered over our face. We see life through the gaze - and our explanations, perceptions and definitions are not clear. We should revisit them. With social anxiety we have mislabeled our emotions and feelings. We gave them definitions by people who have no social anxiety in the first place and we accepted their explanations without any doubt.
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(reddit)
"Please do not try to explain my own thoughts and feelings to me. You can't know them."
Sorry if I came that way, it was not my intention at all. Of course I can't know them nor I can know you. And I shouldn't. It is none of my business to tell you what to feel or what to do in life. You are absolutely correct about this!
I would like to inspect social anxiety here, and that is topic here. I cannot do this without examples - which are paradoxically personal to you and may seem as if I explaining your thoughts to you.
I would say if someone (and I am talking this in general and from my own experience) is afraid what other people think of them behind their back - and this fear is being chronical and repetitive and default automatic thought process in social situations - this is trauma bonding by definition. "A trauma bond is a deep emotional attachment that develops in a relationship characterized by abuse that's emotional, physical, or both."
If I cannot shake off someone's opinion from my mind - there is trauma that is governing this bond. I am stuck with intrusive thought. If I try to solve this by nitpicking my symptoms, as Classical CBT suggests us - I will create more intrusive thoughts, it will not help me. However if I realize this is because I have toxic shame inside me - it is because I was exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when growing up where I was instill to believe that I am unworthy and inept.
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(10.2.2022)
(reddit)
First of all, you are not weird. And whatever you say - it counts.
You anxiety lies to you. It lies to all of us. Anxiety gives us wrong and distorted explanations what is weird. In reality, objective truth is that kids who do not think how they come out to others are weird. Therefore, you are polar opposite to weird. There is nothing wrong with you. And you do not have to change anything about you. You are totally fine and ok as you are.
Now what happens to us with anxiety is that we have toxic shame. During growing up we picked up other people's opinions about us that labelled us as weird, stupid and unworthy - and now we believe in this toxic shame. It does not appear as toxic shame to us, it appears as objective reality. It is hallucination, delusion that appears real to us: that we are weird.
With anxiety, our thoughts merge and glue together our wrong belief with our actions and our decisions and our thoughts. So our task is to start to separate feeling and thoughts and reality. This sounds complicated, but it comes down for us to be scientist and Sherlock Holmes. We have to find clues, objective reality and transparency and scientific proofs about ourselves and people around us.
In your case, you said that you think whatever you say will come out weird and awkward. This is your toxic shame being fused together with your feelings and thoughts. It happens automatically and you cannot notice this process of being glued together. You can only test and become detective - by making experiments. Your task would be to test your fears. What would happen - will they really think and say something critical about you if you start talking and voicing out the elephant in the room?
Next time, start with small, unimportant gibberish. Do the opposite of what your anxiety tells you. Be awkward (or at least what your toxic shame explains to you what is definition of being awkward) and be bluntly weird. And see what happens. Start with some small weirdness and some small awkwardness. In little dosages, just blurt it out. And observe what happens. Will you be attacked? Will there be aggression? Will there be verbal abuse? How will those guys react? Who is the one who will define weird and awkward? Who holds the ultimate truth about who we are as people and our traits and explanations to label us? No one. It is their own personal opinion - it is not ultimate truth.
The world is in itself yin yang - dualistic. There is no truth. So even if someone labels you as weird and ostracizes you - which will never happen - it is their own perception, not the default social group settings. You will notice that the opposite will happen - someone will agree with you. Someone will start having more discussion in that direction what you were afraid to speak up about that you thought it was weird and awkward.
And from scientific point of view - look back on your own life experience up until now - and look at environment - and look at fiction - do people tell each other that they are weird and awkward all the time? No, they don't. People who do this are weird themselves. Those people who tell others these things have low empathy and very low communication skills and they probably have some serious mental issues. Normal healthy and friendly person would never speak in your face that you are weird - even if they think about it!
But, as I said, you are not weird. You brought here very important topic about social anxiety. Look at the response here - no one said and no one thinks you are weird or awkward. Your first response to my comment was that you was afraid that your English is bad. As I said - and I really honestly mean it - it is not bad at all. Your English is excellent. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you. We have toxic shame inside us, that is the only problem. It is like veil over our face, covered and we do not see reality as it really is. It is like we are looking to life through the gaze - everything is hazy and distorted and it feels like we are in fog, it is fuzzy and it is uncomfortable. That is toxic shame. It is external implanted trauma programming we were exposed to as kids, when we grew up. We were not given love. And now our psyche is filled with toxic shame instead. It is external from you. Toxic shame is not you, it is not your persona nor personality.
You can get rid of this toxic shame by self-validation. As I said, to accept yourself in no matter what form you think it is wrong, weird or awkward. Be fine with it. Be fine with being weird and awkward. It does not matter. You are kind and nice person, you have no evil agenda against other people - you have healthy empathy and you appreciate friendships and talking and chatting and hanging out with friends. That is your self worth - and that is not weird nor awkward.
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"I have successfully been transforming/releasing my blockages over time by doing shadow work for three years." Yeah, I am saying - if you find way out of blockages - do it! It is excellent that it works for you. There is no reason to change it because I am telling all this - if this works for you! In my case, I tried everything, I think I have extreme social anxiety, it is stuck now inside me. And my approach will work for those who are stuck with 30+ years of anxiety and those who are finding out about social anxiety panic - they will find correct guidance how to deal with it. It is because what I am saying here is that we accept ourselves and that we trust ourselves - and also that we are creators of our own life - that we do not need other people to tell us how to manage life and how to deal with anything that is personal to us. With social anxiety we think we are inept and that we cannot manage life.
"This is because I've been expressing and outletting the triggers within me" Yes, this is what I am talking about, too - I am just saying in different way that seems as giving up and being passive and puny. I am describing Wu Wei approach - it seems as if accepting the misfortune and being lazy and doing nothing hehe. But in reality it is about engulfing the toxic shame with love. Or similar to Russia defeating Napoleon and Hitler - they allowed them to enter deep inside Russia - since they would do it anyway - and then Russian weather killed them off naturally. That is what I am talking here. And that is your approach too. We are talking about the same thing, from the different perspective.
"Focusing on avoiding triggers all your life won't heal you" This is you got wrong. The first step is to accept your social anxiety. Paradoxically, this acceptance will allow us to face our triggers. It will happen naturally. The inner blockages will wear off and fall off by itself, naturally - without instructions or wasting time and energy on routines and any effort. This is Wu Wei.
"What is helping me is to acknowledge everything I feel, including the bad stuff. " Yeah, that is what I am talking about here. That is it.
"Just to acknowledge them and let them out." What I am saying is that they will let themselves out without my intervention.
"By calling all of the negative thoughts you have "not yours," you are invalidating a piece of yourself" I see it in different light. It is actually self-validation - that I validate my healthy part of me - whereas toxic shame (and critical inner voice of nagging and complaining and self criticizing) is like mud being poured on you - and you have to clean yourself. When you wash yourself, the mud will not be there. In this way I am not identifying with toxic shame - and its inner negative self talk. I see it as result of trauma and abuse. See it like being in Chernobyl. The radiation makes you sick - but you are not radiation. You are not toxic. You are being exposed to toxic place. So you can - wear protective clothes to keep off radiation - or you can physically remove yourself so that you do not breath toxic air and not being exposed to toxic environment. If I say I am toxic and I am the cause of radiation because I was exposed to it - it is not true. This is lie.
I find Wu Wei as excellent approach - because of two crucial things: 1) Ebbinghaus Forgetting Curve tells us that we will forget all instructions in matter of 48 hours. I know, you will say that with repetition and habit it can become your long term habit. But trauma will not allow this. Amygdala hijacking makes us lose our all knowledge and we operate from safe mode, where we cannot access instruction and methods and healthy routines. We are left on our own, on our instinct to guide us. That is why I would lean on natural fluctuation to guide us through social anxiety 2) If we signal our brain that there is something wrong or danger - the brain will do automatic labeling of this danger - and it will try to protect us. This is done inside us, it is outside of our control. With time, the brain will throw us more things to be afraid - what we labeled as scary. This leads to PureOCD intrusive loops. We end up being in chronic worry and hypervigilance without being aware we are hyperaroused all the time. And we feed our anxiety by instructing our brain what is dangerous. If we create routine to fight anxiety - we will make more anxiety. Check our Mark Freeman videos on you tube about Intrusive thoughts.
"The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am then I can change." Carl Rogers
Mark Freeman: "How to Deal With Intrusive Thoughts" He says: "If you stop chasing the stick, your mind will stop throwing them."
We are talking about the same thing here. It is like you see number 6 where you stand, and I say number 9 where I stand.
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> they were no longer having this discussion with me. However, I did not feel I was hostile in any way
Yep, it is when we start to see Social Anxiety from the perspective of trauma and CPTSD - it finally opens the doors and all unfit puzzles finally start to fit the picture. Classical CBT makes us focus on symptoms - and this keeps us in labyrinth, since we are being controlled and manipulated by triggers all the time, not the symptoms. Symptoms (panic attacks) come only afterwards, as after shocks - but from our point of view - it is only that we see. We do not see trigger, the trigger is invisible to us. But official medial community was suppose to be one step ahead of us. They are the ones who had to have us been told to us that it is abuse and triggers and emotional dysregulation that is the real problem here - not the symptoms and not other people per se. It is program that we learned in childhood, virus code that is implanted in our mind that is twisting the world into panic and chaos.
With that being said, I would go even deeper. In your case - I would say that you trust your gut and instinct. It is most probably that you were gaslighted by them. They presented themselves as the correct ones, while they made you look like hysterical and hostile. They abuse the etiquette of conversation against you. As I said just because you disagree with someone this does not mean that you might be correct in what you stand for. It is simple disagreement. In your case, it was obviously some topic that meant a lot to you and you believe in your point of view. Their reaction got you mad because it seems that your point is not valid. This is invalidation, core of the trauma. We are constantly walking inside the trauma, not social anxiety. This means, if you self-validate yourself - their opinion would not matter to you anyways. You are allowed to explain your point of view. What bothers you is that they did not understand you and they dissed you from discussion. Partly they are wrong too. If they walk off from discussion, this means they are not ready to hear the opposing view - and that means that they don't have all the answers. This is strong indication that they were wrong. And in the end - you ended up as being wrong just because they ended the discussion. And that bugs you. In this case, as you said - you had trouble to express yourself. That is social anxiety from our point of view: Shutting up and self-censorship. And people who shut you up and make you censor yourself will trigger you. You will feel the trauma of being made to be silent and take the abuse without any protest.
I would say - express yourself. If your fears tell you that you have difficulties to express yourself - express yourself anyway. Do it with stuttering and with mistakes and with flaws. Do it hysterically and without norms and rules. And see what happens.
I find Allen Ginsberg as great example and mentor about self expression, being honest and being authentic. He was pioneer of beatnik movement in 1950s, he shouted a lot, screamed and his poem was banned because he was using profanity, unheard at the time. He said: "1. You can't win. 2. You can't break even. 3. You can't even get out of the game." He was talking about those guys that made you angry at Facebook discussion here.
But he also says that we voice out the elephant in the room. That is our inner thoughts and opinions that other people will not like. He says; "Follow your inner moonlight; don't hide the madness."
Elaine Aron said that as HSP we notice alarm system that most people do not notice. This makes other people mad since they don't like rules themselves. So they will attack us when we hold unpopular opinion.
She said: Being sensitive to the discomfort, disapproval, or anger of others probably made you quick to follow every rule as perfectly as possible, afraid to make a mistake. Being so good all the time, however, meant ignoring many of your normal human feelings-irritation, frustration, selfishness, rage. Since you were so eager to please, others could ignore your needs when in fact yours were often greater than theirs. Elaine Aron "The Highly Sensitive Person"
And also: "HSPs must spend far more time trying to invent solutions to human problems just because they are more sensitive to hunger, cold, insecurity, exhaustion, and illness." "This deeper processing of subtle details causes you to consider the past or future more. You "just know" how things got to be the way they are or how they are going to turn out. It can be wrong, but your intuition is right often enough that HSPs tend to be visionaries, more conscientious, cautious and wise people."
and "HSPs tend to fill that advisor role. What bring is a tendency to think about all the possible effects of an idea. Often we have to make ourselves unpopular by stopping the majority from rushing ahead. Thus to perform our role well, we have to feel very good about ourselves." Elaine Aron "The Highly Sensitive Person"
In this last quote she is describing what bothers you. Being judged by others for your opinion, your statements and your words, being made silent and to shut up. I see it like Chinese Cultural Revolution - where they attacked their teachers and professors and ashamed them, they proclaimed that knowledge and education is bad and they sent them to work in the fields - they shut them up.
So I would see Social anxiety as something positive. Where as social anxiety symptoms as trauma based - we were being traumatized for being ourselves - and others pathologized our reactions, natural persona and personality and they implanted toxic shame inside us to guide us into obedience and subservience. This is what you experienced at that Facebook discussion. This is social anxiety in nutshell for all of us. Instead of Facebook, my triggers are hysterical and aggressive people - those who shut you up with temper tantrums and with sanctions that threaten your finances (job) and thus shelter (warm home) - not being able to pay bills since you would get fired for being honest and authentic.
With social anxiety we have empathy inside us. We are incapable to hurt other people. We don't have evil agenda. We will not cause someone pain and hurt - this is not our goal in life. We only need and want to express our thoughts and opinions - which are very detailed and truth hurts - it causes cognitive dissonance in other people - and then they label us as nuisance in order to get rid of our thoughts and opinions that does not suit them. They don't care if they can stick with their opinion - they are bothered by it because it is true, and they feel it. That is what scares them really. Then we label ourselves as nuisance, as we end up with neurosis and additional anxieties.
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(reddit)
Coming to reddit I had huge discovery that many people are not aware or core root trigger for social anxiety - hostile and aggressive people. Also conversation about this lead me to yet another discovery - that some people believe they have social anxiety - but they never actually studied it, they never read what are the symptoms. And here we enter people who have no empathy - and these people think they have social anxiety because they do not like social settings due to other people rejecting them.
Let's examine what is Social anxiety.
Mayoclinic web site: Signs and symptoms of social anxiety disorder can include constant:
- Fear of situations in which you may be judged negatively - Worry about embarrassing or humiliating yourself - Intense fear of interacting or talking with strangers - Fear that others will notice that you look anxious - Fear of physical symptoms that may cause you embarrassment, such as blushing, sweating, trembling or having a shaky voice - Avoidance of doing things or speaking to people out of fear of embarrassment - Avoidance of situations where you might be the center of attention - Anxiety in anticipation of a feared activity or event - Intense fear or anxiety during social situations - Analysis of your performance and identification of flaws in your interactions after a social situation - Expectation of the worst possible consequences from a negative experience during a social situation
It is obvious that behind all these signs, there is trauma in the background. Being exposed to narcissistic abuse, neglect, being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria in young age when our personalities develop.
Now, if you have only one symptom - for example - you think other people are judging you - this is not social anxiety. Social anxiety is having huge empathy for other people. You care a lot about other people, what they think about you.
So if you come here on reddit or in real life with defensive words and aggression - this is sign you are borderline or narcissist. If you really had social anxiety you would not feel courageous enough to criticize others. And you would know how painful is when someone is rude to you, so you would not repeat the same abuse to other people. That keeps socially anxious people in loop of people pleasing.
Narcissists and borderliners are also trauma based. They were also toxically ashamed in their childhood. The difference is that they learned that they feel good about themselves when they are mean to other people. Once they are mean to other people - other people will react back to them - and now narcissists and bordeliners may feel social anxiety - being judged and criticized. But this judgement and criticism is normal reaction to your abusive and rude behaviour. You should feel social anxiety. You should be ashamed. And you should feel guilty. Other people are not your object that you can use and throw away after you are done. Dehumanizing other crosses that line.
With that being said, this is important information for people with real social anxiety - people who have plethora of physical symptoms and all the signs mentioned by social anxiety official medical resources. With social anxiety - we lump everything together. Safe and unsafe events, safe and unsafe people - we do not make difference, we do not filter people out. All people appear dangerous to us and that they hate us.
Narcissists and borderliners thus create abuse, they prolong it to the next generation - and to us they appear as "normal" and general public. That is social anxiety - that we think people hate us. We expect people to criticize us and that they are rude and hysterical to us. And the truth is - that our worst fears are connected to narcissists and borderliners - they are the only cause of chaos that we feel with social anxiety.
This means, with learning about trama and narcissistic abuse as a way to deal with social anxiety - we also need to learn what is narcissism and what is borderline PD: in order to recognize red flags. And in order to start cut people away from our life who are toxic. With social anxiety we cut everyone out. Everyone appear hysterical and rude to us.
Borderliner people are here the worst. Narcissists are usually very overt - they explode and throw temper tantrums all the time and they are easy to recognize.
Borderliners on the other hand are very sneaky and covert. They appear as friends to us, and we open up to them, but very soon they will start to criticize and nag and throw temper tantrums. When they have drama hour, they will use and abuse all the personal information that we gave them and use is against us - and this is very painful to experience. Of course, just as narcissists - they will have honeymoon phase, where they appear friendly and they give us validation. Borderliners use empathy as agenda, it is used as a goal to manipulate others.
With social anxiety we do not know this and we are easy targets to those predators. We are friendly, nice, good and with high empathy - and this attracts them. Narcissist and borderliners are full of toxic shame - and they invented a mask and character inside them in order to handle their wound - so they live in imaginary world. It is useless to argue with them, they will gaslight us into useless conflicts where they drain our energy. I believe we will improve our energy levels as soon as we start to cut these toxic people out of our lives. They hate transparency, they are repelled by open and honest people, genuine and authentic. This is why they abuse others - so that they evoke toxic shame inside you - so that you are ashamed of yourself.
As I said, these toxic people play huge role in our own anxiety levels and they have detrimental impact on our mental health, since they pull strings of our triggers and they control us through their constant rage and anger and hysteria.
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(reddit)
Thanks!
Yes, people pleasing is huge clue what is social anxiety and what is not social anxiety.
Let's look at medical side of social anxiety to have solid, scientific view what is social anxiety. DSM-5 Diagnostic Criteria with Diagnostic Features: - Marked fear or anxiety about one or more social situations in which the individual is exposed to possible scrutiny by others. This means you are in inferior position. You expect attack from others. This sets you up in defense mode - which never happens, since most people are not aggressive. And you are left with hypervigilance and chronic worry - expecting someone will attack you. The only way to keep safe - is to avoid people and to avoid conflict - and people pleasing is natural anti-dote to this fear.
- The individual fears that he or she will act in a way or show anxiety symptoms that will be negatively evaluated Again, we expect negative evaluation from others. We do not perceive other people are honest and genuine - we see them as threat. Once again, we can be on lookout - and soon we learn that the best way to avoid being negatively evaluated is to serve others and to be subservient to them, to be pushover and to fawn.
- The social situations almost always provoke fear or anxiety. Yes, being triggered. There are 4 responses to trauma triggers: Fight - Flight - Freeze and Fawn. We learn very soon that fight response destroys relationships. And socially anxious people desire friendships and companionships. If they do not like people - they would be Schizoid - and they would not care about other people at all, this no social anxiety. They would solve their social anxiety wound by cutting contact with everyone. Thinking that all people are stupid morons.
- The social situations are avoided or endured with intense fear or anxiety. Again, when you have intense state of anxiety - you are not bold. You are not chirpy. You are not loud. You are not obnoxious. You are quiet, you are silent, and people label you as weak and shy and introverted. Then we believe those labels and we start to act shy. And next thing - we are being controlled by other people labels, emotions and thoughts - we become people pleasers.
- The fear or anxiety is out of proportion to the actual threat posed by the social situation and to the sociocultural context.
- The fear, anxiety, or avoidance is persistent, typically lasting for 6 months or more.
- The fear, anxiety, or avoidance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. Again, if we were bold and confident, we would openly speak our mind. With anxiety we hide, We shut up. We self-censor. Other people accuse us of wrong and untrue things - we do not defend ourselves because we feel panic. This all leads with time to people pleasing.
- The fear, anxiety, or avoidance is not attributable to the physiological effects of a substance
- The fear, anxiety, or avoidance is not better explained by the symptoms of another mental disorder, such as panic disorder, body dysmorphic disorder, or autism spectrum disorder.
- If another medical condition (e.g., Parkinson disease, obesity, disfigurement from burns or injury) is present, the fear, anxiety, or avoidance is clearly unrelated or is excessive.
- If the fear is restricted to speaking or performing in public it is performance only social anxiety disorder.
Social anxiety is just one huge constant act of people pleasing. It is being implanted by abuse, by other people and by ourselves. And by Classical CBT - because it focuses on our symptoms, thus pathologizing us as person, as persona, our identity is toxically ashamed. With toxic shame our psyche exports our self worth into other people. Now in other people - we live our life through other people - this is why their criticism hurts. Because we have trauma bonded with other people. And we are not aware of this. Toxic shame prevents us from recognizing this, toxic shame lies to us, it gives us wrong explanations.
Social anxiety is having huge empathy inside and care for other people. With toxic shame this turns into people pleasing.
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(11.2.2022)
Resentment is hypnotic emotion. If I want to hypnotize you, all I have to do is frustrate you and upset you. To criticize you and degrade you, and pretty soon you are thinking backwards. You try to please me. You do whatever I want for peace – (but) there is no peace ROY MASTERS
I noticed that behind social anxiety there is a lot of resentment. I see pouting and holding on to grudge as virus, distorting our thoughts into blame and shame, and it is a way to be hypervigilant with chronic worry stuck inside.
In my case, once I understood what Roy Masters talked about, I realized that with my social anxiety - once I started to decide to stay in my room and avoid people - was actually a resentment. I always thought that is was fear and being afraid of being bullied. I focused on this aspect, which is often described in official medical resources and superficial classical CBT descriptions of causes of Social Anxiety.
I realized to my surprise that I was actually trying to manipulate bullies into feeling sorry for myself - since I would exclude myself from them. The idea was that if I pout - that others will notice this and then they will stop bullying me. Later on, this resentment and pouting stick with me and I forget all about it - but I still kept this resentment inside me, as a way to deal with conflicts and confrontation as I grew up and experienced various social situations.
What I am saying - resentment is bad. It will make us angry without any solution. It will keep us stuck on chronic intrusive worries loop without end in sight.
Also, the way to deal with toxic people - is to be honest and authentic, not to hide my feelings. It is about alarming and alerting them, being transparent and voice out the elephant in the room. That would be mature way of dealing with toxic people.
If I pout, hold grudge and resentment inside me - I become toxic myself and I set myself to react just like bullies. It is said: - 'You always become what you hate.'
So how to fight monster without becoming monster - I see it by clearing garbage in front of my house first. Resentment should go away, it is toxic emotion and does not belong inside ourselves.
Other people control us through guilt, shame and blame. The "natural" response is to get resentful. However, as I said, I think resentment is wrong alley. It is ego-centric and immature. Instead of resentment, there is healthy anger. Without wars, without explosions. Without resentment I am able to deal with conflict in better and more functional ways: "I disagree with you" and end of discussion.
With resentment I would not listen to the other person really. I would shut down channel of communication.
Also, with social anxiety, due to trauma and toxic shame, we tend to see other people as gods. We take everything they say as ultimate truth. In summer of 2020 I realized that the world is yin yang. There is no truth. Socrates talked about this long time ago. Descartes also - we are allowed to doubt ourselves and to doubt others. Paradox of truth is that there is no truth - and the only way to break this paradox is to cut it as some point. Where I will be aware that I may be wrong, but I have to stick with truth that appears real to me. By knowing I may be wrong, I will naturally feel less resentful at others who do not understand my point of view, neither they are capable of understanding it.
With toxic shame I do not trust myself, this I can never form my truth. Instead, my truth (perception about life and reality) will be formed outside of me- since external reference locus of control will be located in other people. Once I accept myself as I am, I am able to find what I see as truth and to defend my truth.
Albert Einstein discovered that there is something called relativity. This means - we will think we are the center of universe and we will have confirmation bias that will create quick shortcuts which are often wrong. This is being ego-centric. Kids naturally learn to over grow ego-centrism. But with social anxiety - due to trauma in developmental age (not experiencing love and appreciation and validation of who we are as person) we get this part distorted. Our inborn capacity to empathy is natural way to outgrow ego-centrism, however other people judgements in young age make us ego-centric by force.
Resentment is one of traits of being ego-centric. Resentment should go away.
I found that forgiving others from the past is excellent tool to remove intrusive worries related to past blunders and past experiences with toxic people. I did not found any other way to remove this intrusive thoughts related to embarrassing moments from the past.
If you have social anxiety, look inside and seek resentment. Try to remove it by replacing it either with healthy anger - or by forgiving others with whom you are no longer in contact.
"I used to hold grudges until I realized that most people are narcissistic and their actions are driven by an unhealthy self-interest and not maliciousness towards me. I have since freed myself from this needless burden". DR STEVE MARABOLI
"People are often unreasonable, illogical and self centered; Forgive them anyway.
If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives; Be kind anyway. If you are honest and frank, people may cheat you; Be honest and frank anyway. You see, in the final analysis, it is between you and your God; It was never between you and them anyway." MOTHER THERESA
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To me this CBT did not help at all. And I ended up with being people pleaser, pushover and into fawning as response to triggers. I realized that behing my intrusive thoughts are actually narcissistic people and borderliners - people who like to belittle others, mock them and create hysteria and drama just for them to feel good. For long time I would personalize fears - so it never occurred to me that intrusive thoughts are not mine. They are after-effects of being exposed to toxic people. Also, I learned that I make certain routines to deal with anxiety and intrusive worries - that this routine is actually OCD and it will help me in that minute - but in long term this routine turns into chronic worry and more of intrusive thoughts.
I learned there is third wave of CBT. IT is called Dialectical behavior therapy and Humanistic pschology. The idea behind is that we accept our symptoms - instead of trying to get rid of them and to shift focus on self worth. This means being ok with negative thoughts, fears, flaws and mistakes, anything that ashames me and makes me feel uncomfortable.
Also, I learned that as HSP and with intelligence - I will notice certain details more than other people and I will feel deep process stimuli more deeply than common folks. If I label this over arousal as over arousal and try to listen to society that tells us that extroversion is normal and everything else is abnormal - we will create more additional anxiety and neurosis - just for trying to fit in and through invalidating myself.
Self validation is great tool for dealing with intrusive thoughts. That is what you are talking about - to love yourself even when you are afraid. I would broaden that statement: love yourself even when you don't love yourself- Love yourself even when you fight your intrusive thoughts, when you do all the mistakes and flaws and everything is wrong, you love it inspite of it. Trauma is lack of love, we never received or experienced love. So we have no idea what love is. We see it on TV, we see it in fiction we speak it out as a word, some concept - but we have no idea what love really is. This creates distortions and intrusive thoughts and people pleasing is seeking this love from external source - since our toxic shame does not allow us to love ourselves, to accept ourselves in full.
And yeah - you are correct - it comes down to Keep going. IT is ok. IT is all right. With alarm or not. Even if someone thinks I am weird, boring or stupid, or if i think that - that I accept it, being fine with it - not as a way to belittle myself. But in a way that I love all parts of me, rejected ones and the ones I like.
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(reddit)
Some societies value expressiveness and aggression. They see diplomacy and kindness as weakness and they want kids to become bullies. They think their life will be easier if they are loud and shout at others. If you make a big deal about it - they would accuse you of being part of "cancel culture" and that you are not allowing "freedom of speech".
Yeah, society is sick. But it is changing slowly to better. So it is our social anxiety - once we start to talk, we will make society better, because we will tell the aggressive people when they step out of boundaries. They do not know it now, because we are scared to talk.
And that is paradox. Society wants you to become their teacher.. Society wants to be "spanked" and they know that silent people are more intelligent and they want advice from "silent" people.
They ashame you in order to make you strong. Or to be more exact, they think it is a method to become strong. They do not know better. But we, silent people know better. And we should start speaking. Not loudly. Just speaking out our "silent" opinion.
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(reddit)
Very well written, it is objectively silly to care what people think. But as I said above, it is these triggers that run the show actually. I think we react to triggers. It is not people. People are like carriers, but the real problem are these triggers in our heads.
It is like we were in war situation and now loud noises hurt us inside and they make us run away. It is not the object itself that is the problem, it is not the noise that it is the problem - it is this trigger inside our mind that is controlling us, that is broadcasting panic and that dysregulate us. From our perspective - we think the object is problem.
This is what happens with social anxiety. We are convinced that people are problem, that it is their laughter the problem - but true problem are these ingrained injuries in our head that materialize as triggers. We mis label people as problem, while the real problem is our own mind. It has injury inside that sets of panic attacks when something similar reminds us on original trauma that caused this mess.
Toxic shame does not help in all this, because toxic shame is also one after-effect of abuse and it makes us see other people as gods, as we must obey them.
So on one hand we have triggers - that perceive social situations and people as scary, and in the same time we have toxic shame that explains us that other people are superior and we must shut up and that we have no right to be anywhere without their explicit approval and validation.
I think this is social anxiety. It is Complex Trauma.
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(reddit)
" it's not easy to see what's awesome about us, our ideas, interests etc"
I look at it from Complex Trauma perspective. It is very easy to see what is awesome about us - but only if we are in calm state. However, when we are triggered (by some event, people or situation similar to original trauma) - our brain flips off to hypervigilance or hypoarousal. Polyvagal theory.
So for example - anger is Fight response, it is hyperarousal.
My response is fawning.
Both anger and fawning are not bad themselves - they have their natural usage - the problem is when our trigger sets us up into these states - we lose control due to amygdala hijacking. Our brain is hijacked. This means - in this state you cannot force yourself to think about self esteem in order to calm down.
In social anxiety, our triggers are problem, not the other people. It is not problem that we have low self worth as much as that we are being triggered. Toxic shame exports our self worth in other people - and we perceive our life through other people, this is called External reference locus of control. This means my definition of awesome will be filtered through other people. That is why I will seek validation from other people - since my self worth is inside them. It should be inside me, where it naturally belongs, but toxic shame chased it away, it externalized my self worth. So I believe other people are gods, superior and I take every their word as my command and ultimate truth - because self worth is placed inside them. This is called trauma bonding, Stockholm Syndrome. So, even if I do try to force myself to think what is awesome about me - it will be mirrored and produced through other people. It will come out thwarted and fabricated and I will not know who I really am and what I really like. I will know what other people want and like - since my self worth is in other people. And since there are a lot of other people a lot of different opinions - this means my self worth will be plethora of contradictions and it will never materialize. So my brain will invent another solution to this problem: social anxiety. It means, whenever I am in social situation I will feel fear and anxiety - because this gives me focus on other people - who will instruct me and give me directions about anything in life. Including the list of what is awesome about me. So I will read people minds and I will pre-emptively do whatever I think other people would like me to do. Mostly it is contradicting - so natural solution to this dilemma is isolation and withdrawal.
I believe if we realize toxic shame is hallucination and that we can bring back self worth inside ourselves - we will heal most of our problems that we cannot grab and hold on to when we are in state of panic.
I see self worth as intrinsic locus of control: that I accept myself as I am. With mistakes and flaws, with embarrassment and fears and panic and shaky voice. When I have self worth I can voice out my opinion, alarm and alert other people when they cross decent behavior, when they are rude. I can cut them off from my life. With social anxiety I can't do that, since my self worth is inside other people.
I have tried all techniques suggested by Classical CBT. I have tried all self help books - I have reading them since 1996. I have tried self esteem techniques and assertiveness. It did not help me. I believe from my own experience that toxic shame and external reference locus of control are related to social anxiety - and we have to remove them both in order to start managing our anxiety.
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(reddit)
(12.2.2022)
Without Social Anxiety I would never be aware of these incredible concepts. I see them as missing puzzles, and I have "collected" as if they are Pokemon, I've caught them through my life, by personal and shared experience and studying philosophy and psychology. Since they are all intrinsically related to social anxiety, perhaps someone would find some answer about something you are struggling with and that makes no sense without knowing what is going on under the hood.
The missing puzzle concepts list is here:
- toxic shame (motor that keeps social anxiety going and it is actually hallucination)
- Polyvagal Theory (tells us what happens when we are afraid)
- immature ego defense mechanism (to realize what we are doing wrong)
- cognitive distortions (ways how we try to control the uncontrollable events and people)
- external referencing, external validation (we see others as Gods)
- Complex Trauma - CPTSD (programming from childhood that gives us triggers now)
- Flashbacks and imprinting (that influence our thinking and dysregulate us)
- fawning (response to fears in form of being obedient and self-censor)
- introjection (soaking up other's emotions so their reactions stuck at us like leech)
-amygdala hijacking, emotional hijacking (our fears take over the plane)
- ego-centrism (when we see events and people only from limited, skewed, one view)
- logical fallacies (we learn that there is no absolute truth and with social anxiety disorder we believe only others are right - while they have biases, too - they just present/package/export it as truth)
- cognitive biases (we learn that we are aware only of limited input we expose ourselves)
- self worth and intrinsical values (we trust our gut and mistakes instead of rejecting it)
- scapegoating (we learn when someone tries to shut us up)
- gaslighting (we learn when someone tries to manipulate us)
- narcissistic injury (to learn why people are rude)
- trauma bonding (Stockholm syndrome is also social anxiety described)
- cognitive defusion (we learn not to take our thoughts as exclusive reality)
- PureOCD and intrusive thoughts (we learn our fears are actually thoughts stuck in a loop)
- thinking errors (we learn some thoughts are like virus code)
- inner shadow (we accept that we are ok even if we're dumb, make mistake, embarrassed, weak, weird, stupid, boring etc)
- inferiority complex (we learn what makes us to fawn)
- narcissistic abuse (to learn about predators and external factor)
- emotional dyregulation (we learn our symptoms are normal reaction to abnormal settings)
- Descartes Evil demon hypothesis (to let go of ego-centrism)
- Zoroastrianism (to learn to be authentic, honest and speak up the truth but without ethical rudeness - to deliberately cause hurt and pain to other people with our "honesty")
- Elephant in the room (we have ability to see it - this cause anxiety because we shut up)
- External factor (we realize we attract predators like moth to a flame because we're ok)
- Perfectionism (let go of our drive to serve and be obedient by making deliberate mistake)
- Codependency (we learn being dependent on others is addiction, not our whim)
- Action (we are defined by what we do, not what we say. Also, action is healthy)
- Ambiguity (we learn SAD is like being in vacuum - we try to hold on to people to get grip)
- Agreeableness (through Wu Wei we accept our need to fix others but with conditions)
- Wu Wei (we do not punish ourselves yet we let go our reactions to come naturally)
- Learned helplessness (we understand we grip onto others because of programming)
- Three Stages (to avoid allergy, Karen mode- we gather information before making move)
- Assertiveness (we speak up, voice out our concern without expecting others to change)
- Ebbinghaus Forgetting curve (whatever steps and instruction we get- we will default to our normal everyday mode - which may be brain injury)
- Brain injury (it is etched in our brain to be immobile, to freeze and to feel depressing so it determines our thoughts and decisions if left on auto-pilot. IT is up to us to take manual over-ride and be active and focus on purpose to our task, move on)
- Super Ego (it is conglomerate of all knowledge and information we learned, it is database how to act, how to discern right and wrong and we can use it as our guide, with mistakes included - as learning process. Instead of toxic shame as guide or external validation-other people opinion and their relentless unfair criticism, we use our intrinsical nuclear power plant inside us: Super ego)
- Paradox of knowledge (there is no absolute truth. Predators exploit this through toxic shaming of easy targets: people who are nice, kind, silent, cooperative and who listen to authority - which may lead to Milgram experiment. Truth is that I am right and so are other people as long as we are not violent or unkind. Our honest mistakes are ok, we are not dumb, wrong for making unintentional mistakes)
-cognitive fusion (We understand that we can't trust our thoughts all the time, that the anxiety is lying to us, and that we make space between our thoughts and our interpretations, rules, obligations, shoulds)
- Have no ill will ("Be just and fear not" - I do not want to hurt or cause pain to anyone)
- Speaking the truth (seems easy and dumb, but it is very controversial and radical)
- Trying too hard to understand what is going on (Instead let the super-ego supply info)
- Bad things happen even when you are careful (you cannot control events, situations, people no matter how much you follow the most perfect advice or steps or instructions)
- Instead of brain, rely on my thoughts, decisions and logic to guide me (I no longer wait for my brain to start me up, give me green light - I take the control, the brain won't do it - waiting to feel right)
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(reddit)
" we already know" But we doubt ourselves. We distrust our hunch - because of society. Society explains to us we are over-sensitive and that we take stuff to personally. Then we believe their diagnosis and this pathologizing of our beliefs and instincts and hunches creates additional neurosis and anxieties. It also creates additional toxic shame because we distrust our ability to make decisions. We start to depend on other people to explain us what is really going on. We are being told we make things up, that we see something that is not there and that people do not hate us.
They do, and all our hunches are correct. However in order for humanity to survive, people put on a mask. They are not sincere all the time. They will never tell you that they are annoyed by your presence since they know this will hurt you and you will never come back to make them companionship. So they convince us that our hunches are wrong.
This is Hedgehog's dilemma. "The hedgehog's dilemma, or sometimes the porcupine dilemma, is a metaphor about the challenges of human intimacy. ... The hedgehog's dilemma suggests that despite goodwill, human intimacy cannot occur without substantial mutual harm, and what results is cautious behavior and weak relationships."
Some people (toxic ones) will be blunt and they will mock and tell us that we are stupid/boring/inept/unworthy - for plethora of reason that may not be true at all (they are irritated, they have drug problems, they are mentally insane, they love to abuse other people to feel good about themselves etc). Now this confirms our Confimation bias - and we know we are stupid/boring/inept, unworthy - and we feel toxic shame around next person we see.
The point is that we have ability to see through the people masks. We have superpower. We have Voight-Kampff test machine inside us - we can sense replicants. People will never admit we are correct - because they are embarrassed and as I said most of them will never hurt our feelings on purpose by being totally honest how they feel about us. Therefore, Social Anxiety is not totally bad and negative. It is gift of deep stimuli process of everything in life. We are like explorers of humanity and society. We will pick up extremely close details about people. We also have ability to see everything from multiple points and different angles - we are not ego-centric. Our triggers and panic makes us ego-centric. (to see everything from panic point of view). We have deep empathy and we are able to put ourselves in other people shoes and we will think twice before doing something that will hurt other person. Now society labels this diplomatic skills as weakness and being wuss. They labels as as cowards and "without backbone" - usually in childhood - and we get traumatized by this labels. So we internalize toxic shame without being aware that we normalized psychological abuse as something normal. We listen to society tips how to be "strong" and we try to fix our inborn "weirdness" by being tough, by yelling and screaming and being rude to others. Since our empathy is unable to be rude - our psyche finds solution - social anxiety. We develop panic symptoms to manage and balance out narcissistic abuse and rude people around us with our HSP inborn capabilities. And no one tells us that we are ok with being HSP. Not even Classical CBT - who was the first "medical responder" to social anxiety in 1990s. They constructed the whole set how to heal social anxiety from narcissistic point of view - by pathologizing our persona, personality and deep stimuli process abilities. They created more neurosis and additional anxiety for us. Today, they realized their mistake and third wave of CBT is spot on how to deal with social anxiety issues: DBT and Humanistic psychology: accepting ourselves as we are - and then building up on that.
In the end - it is problem only when we care what other people think. When we seek other people's approval. When we base our actions and thoughts about other people's criticism (spoken or imagined).
Self worth is the only anti-dote to this complex mess. That we trust our gut and instinct and that we are fine with being boring/stupid, embarrassed, wrong, mistaken, inept, unworthy - and still do things we want to do, our goals, tasks chores and dreams in spite of everything that is wrong with us.
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(reddit)
> to overcome social anxiety is not a very hard thing
Yeah,, and I found out that it is not "overcoming" at all. Instead I would describe this process as "navigating through" and "reintegration". Social anxiety is like Russian invasion of Ukraine. Parts of ourselves are taken away by abuse and toxic people and toxic events - and now we have to put it again under our own control - but without aggression or wars or explosions, it is reintegration with out rejected parts.
Parts of our identity and persona that we see as disgusting and parts that we see as scary. We gave up the control over it and gave it to other people - thus social anxiety. Society is governing our mind, emotions, thoughts and decisions. Their criticism is controlling us. But from our point of view we see this as normal, that other people suppose to tell us what we should feel, think, say, do, act. We distrust ourselves to make this choices unless being prior been approved by other people as good and valid. When we start to validate ourselves without waiting for other people to approve us, our social anxiety will lessen. And we will be ok with social anxiety symptoms such as over thinking, which society labelled as distortions, and we will be fine with deep process stimuli that other people told us is panic attack.
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(reddit)
I dislike Classical CBT techniques. This one teaches us to use up other people like rag and throw them away after we are finished. Or wipe our dirty hands on them and move on.
What if the cashier has horrible boss who forbid her to make small chat with customers? What if the cashier has migraine and doesn't feel like talking but her boss makes her chat in order to attract customers? What if the cashier has horrible social anxiety and the most traumatic thing for her is small chat with strangers?
This approach keeps us in ego-centrism tunnel vision where we cut off our natural empathic skills to see world from other people shoes.
Also, this approach does not teach us that we do not need routines to calm anxiety - since this routines lead to PureOCD intrusive worry loops cycles, as any routine that responds to anxiety.
The goal of this approach that we were suppose to get use to our own panic - and then from calm state that we behave naturally, without worrying what if and all anxiety. However this does not work. In long term, these kind of exposures will make us into fawn, people pleasing and being pushover - where we observe other people as fear objects that we must chat with, that we must be comfortable with - we create out of other people gods and this will affirm our internalized toxic shame that other people are super competent and confident, while we are little scared kids that need other people in order to exercise our anxiety fears.
Instead I would turn to third wave of CBT : DBT and Humanistic psychology. I would look what happens if I don't tell nothing at all if I do not feel like it. Am I really want to chat with strangers anyways? With what people I would like to make friends with? Do I really like small talks or dislike them from the bottom of my heart - and thus I do not need them in my life. Can I accept myself as I am, in this minute, with all perks and quirks and caprice that other people will label as "shy", "introverted", "weird" or "boring" - that I am totally fine with this superficial bias - and turn to my chores, tasks, jobs and dreams that I really want to do instead of being stuck in worry and hypervigilance.
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(13.2.2022)
(reddit)
Ok, sounds interesting hehe.
I myself am more of pragmatic - I want results, and I want minimum effort if it is possible.
I am huge proponent of Wu Wei strategy - minimum of effort in order to make maximum out of everything.
This means - regarding social anxiety what we know is that if we respond to anxiety in any way, in any routine - we will make it stronger. We will signal our brain that we find something disturbing, and even though the strategy and the routine is healing (like meditation) - it is still signaling to brain that I am reacting to something. The brain will then throw more sticks for me to take care of. This will happen unconsciously. From my perspective it will seem like I am getting rid of anxiety, and that it works. But in reality, the brain will find clever way to keep me in PureOCD intrusive worries cycles.
I look at it this way: Ok, what about people without social anxiety. How they spend their time - without it? They get into situations that are triggering them, but they are confident and they do not fret over it. How they do it? They don't have any rituals not techniques nor strategies. They just do it, effortlessly. They do not spend their money, time and energy on strategies. Instead they are doing their life, living their dreams, going on through the day without anxiety in their background, hovering like chronic illness, chronic worry.
I would work in that direction. With that being said, I do not discourage you from doing it. If it obviously is helping you, and you really do not have anxiety any more - great! Keep doing it. Do not listen to anyone, because that is also one of the social anxiety solution: that you become your own advice giver and that you give your own solutions and find the "cure" for any problem you may find. That is very healthy. From this perspective I encourage you to keep doing it. Who knows, maybe I am completely wrong about Wu Wei. Perhaps in 20 years time I will realize that it didn't help me. For now, I see in myself tremendous relief and it changes the social anxiety tunnel I had for the past 30 years. Wu Wei seems to be working for me - not strategies, only my own common sense as guidance.
" I'm saying basically to have conversations with your inner demons" I realized that my inner demons are not anger, fight response or being anti-social. Many resources, especially popular instant Stoic alpha male channels explain that inner demon being vulgar, aggressive, monster - and that we must release this monster in order to be "complete". Kinda like Yin Yang balance. I find this view unhealthy and untrue. I realized that inner demons are actually being inept, being considered stupid, unworthy, "sissy", "weak", scared, panicked, lazy, wrong, mistaken. And that this is all toxic shame. Whereas toxic shame is hallucination. Therefore, I do not have it. So I do not have to communicate with it - since it is not there. Instead - I see reintegration with my rejected parts that scare or disgust me: So in a way - my communication with inner demon is this recognition and having new perception that looks like this: "being inept" - we are not gods, we cannot know everything, I can rely on asking for help and admit I do not know something, as oppose hiding it and over-compensating, trying to impress other people.
"being considered stupid" - I realize that other people's opinion is external reference locus of control, where due to toxic shame I do not trust my own opinion and I put my opinion in other people - who are prone to be unkind and impatient to other people. So whatever they consider about me is their bias.
"unworthy" - I realize that every single person has hidden puzzle inside themselves, so every human being has something to say that is valuable to others, and it is unique
"sissy" - I realize that I can accept myself as I am and it is ok to be me, unique in my own way, that other people will label and mock but nevertheless I will still be me.
"weak" "scared" "panicked" "lazy" - If I had trauma, of course I will be weak in certain areas of my life. This is injury. Long term exposure to narcissistic abuse causes brain damage - this is very serious thing. It is not weak, it is injury and it is in the brain. It is said that injuries to the brain are the most delicate in the whole body. So therefore it would be very unreasonable and barbaric to expect to be "strong" with injury ingrained in my brain. This injury and thus weakness is not my fault, I did not cause it. Also, this is not my inborn trait, so it does not define me as person inside. It is only an injury and I will be weak in some areas of my life, it is out of my control. I will be prone to being panicked and scared in social situations, it will not go away, and I can live with that once I know this is external injury inside my brain.
"wrong", "mistaken" - this realization was removing huge obstacle that was blocking me for very long time. Due to toxic shaming, I grew up believing that other people, especially authority hold the ultimate truth about anything in life. And automatically I do not know the truth. So my words, opinions do not matter no matter what I do and no matter how much I try to be perfect. Other people will always be one step ahead of me, and therefore I must listen to them and believe whatever they say is absolute true and never doubt them. I really grew up with this inferiority complex mindset. This external reference locus of control. In summer of 2020, I realized that the world is dualistic - that anything can be observed from different angle. This means - there is no truth out there. Unles unkind or violent - there is no definite nor absolute truth about any single topic in the world. Even at the atomic level, our reality exists in suspended state until observed. Socrates said this 2000 years ago. Descartes said that we will start to think only when we start to doubt everyone, anyone and anything, including our own thoughts. Truth is paradox. Therefore, I am never wrong. I cannot be. Whatever I do is valid, even when mistaken and totally wrong - since this is paradox we are talking here. For example, if I make a mistake - this is because I do not know something. I do not know how something works. Or I do not know the true consequences of what will happen if I make mistake. And all paradoxes tell us - that we can break paradox by putting limitation on it. This literally means - that we will be wrong about anything in life once we decide something is true. Being wrong is state of life. With social anxiety I try not to be wrong. With social anxiety I was brought up to be perfectionist in order to please authorities and gain their validation and approval. Therefore from this perspective, being wrong is equal to death. It is something that will cause me panic. And I will desperately try routines and techniques to be perfect. That I do not have mistakes. That I am not wrong. This however will never be so - since being wrong as I said is state of life. It is impossible to reach perfectionism. We are not gods. We were not suppose to be perfect. It is not our job to be god. And even if we might be lucky on life and have all money and power in the world - our body is still limiting us to be perfect. We are limited, this is the nature of universe. Once I truly understand this truth, that there is no truth and perfection - I can be more at ease, and stop fretting so much about mistakes. And this discovery lead me to yet another discovery, and I call this External Factor. With toxic shame and external reference locus of control - I let other people to control me and define to me what is perfect. So what happens when I bring back my self worth back where it belongs inside me and I trust myself, with mistakes and with being imperfect. External Factor happens. Other people who are manipulative and aggressive suddenly filters out on the surface. There are toxic people out there that cause injuries to other people. They expect other people to be perfect and they force them to be perfect. They do this by force - yelling, screaming, temper tantrums, violence, aggression, hysteria.
Glasser told us that correct way of communication is like this - talking and explaining my views in calm manner, without forcing you to believe me. I do not force you to change. I simply state what I have learned about social anxiety up until now. This is healthy.
So we can say that health is some sort of truth. It helps us to reach the point where we encourage each other instead of fighting, instead of drama and explosions. It is called interdependence. Allegory of long spoons. Helping each other.
I see this as the process we can have inside ourselves, with our fears and rejected parts, our demons as you call them. Our intrusive worries. Our panic. That we accept it. This is self-validation, and it is at the core of Humanistic Psychology and DBT, third wave of CBT that really helps with social anxiety.
This is why I would stick with Wu Wei. In the case - where I am truly kind person, I am nice, I am not evil, I do not have evil agenda, my goal is not to hurt or cause pain to anyone - in this case I would accept myself as I am, with all warts, mistakes and demons that I might have, being sissy, weak, stupid boring, anxious, panicked. I would let it be. I would let it go. I would not fight it.
I believe as I read until now, that this is what your methods does too. And as I said, I dislike methods. This will signal my lizard brain to be in hyperarousal and look for intruders, I will stay in chronic worry mode. When we are relaxed in full, our cortex brain guides us automatically. And we are able to deal with stress and unexpected situations more efficiently and correctly and with painlessness. If I signal my brain that I have a method - this will not be possible. I cannot cheat my brain. :D
Polyvagal theory - click on google images and see what happens when we are not in calm state.
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(reddit)
We will attract bullies like moth to a flame. They will sniff us out. (similar to The Simpsons episode with Lisa Simpsons and her experiment with bullies). Bullies are mentally ill people. We are open, kind, nice, friendly, quiet, understanding, empathetic and loving - and this attracts them, it annoys them. This triggers their narcissistic injury and they feel incredible jealousy and annoyance inside - and they express it through violence and any kind of abuse (verbal, psychological, emotional).
These things that he says is projection. What he says about you is his own rejected parts of himself, all the shame that he was exposed to at home. Narcissists will deal with trauma by inventing a mask, imaginary persona. And this is what we see. To us, it appears as aggressive and even "strong" person. But it is fake. We are actually seeing an avatar. And as much as they can sniff out intelligent people, on the other hand we are polar opposite to them. We can sniff out replicants. We have Voight-Kampff test mechanism inside us. This mechanism is our panic and fears and uncomfortable feelings. We have no idea that we are experiencing the alarm system inside us that is totally normal and it goes along with our natural intelligence and high emotional intelligence. We turn to psychiatrist and society to explain us what is going on - and they label it as social anxiety, shyness, introversion, all kinds of labels. Then we believe those labels and these labels cause us additional anxiety and fears - since now we are made to be weird and different from others, simple by having those labels. And they lead to self-prophecy. If I am labelled shy, I will prevent myself from walking away - since I will try to over-compensate my shyness by being tough macho guy. I will ignore natural responses that come with my intelligence and being HSP, and instead replace it with society messages of what "normal" person is suppose to be. The label "introverted" and "good" and "nice" will prevent me from being hysterical in situation when I am with hysterical person and it will prevent me from slapping him or yelling back at him. My natural reactions will be thwarted because of labels and society describing what I am: weak, sissy, stupid, weird, shy, worm etc. And these labels will force me to create all sorts of methods to be "strong", "better", "macho", "normal", "hero" - I will spend money, time and energy chasing sticks that society throw me to follow - instead of relying on my common sense and natural reactions.
Similar to the movie "The Incident" from 1967 where passengers were trapped with hooligans. The young Martin Sheen bullied all passengers one by one - and none of them said anything, they were silent. Because of societal messages of what normal kind, friendly person should be. These messages work in pleasant, happy and normal environment - but what happens when we meet External Factor, something outside of normal environment? What happens when we encounter bully - and our methods of being kind and nice no longer work - in fact it gives bully the green light? Then our own methods and instructions to be nice, kind, and good turns us into NPC Wojak. ("NPC Wojak is a depiction of the MS Paint character Wojak with a blank stare and facial expression, named after non-player characters within video games.")
So the true problem here is toxic shame. We believe we are inept, stupid, unworthy and our mistakes and flaws proves it. Without being aware of it - when we believe in toxic shame, our self worth gets exported to other people, especially to loud and obnoxious people, bullies. This is called trauma bonding. We were bullied in childhood to develop toxic shame - and now we will attract bullies as adults - because we will not have natural repellent against them - in fact, the complex trauma experience turned us into attracting bullies. If we had self worth inside us, our common sense would tell us what to do and how to react naturally to bullies. We would defend ourselves, naturally, with methods we learned up until now. All the knowledge and analysis we know what would happen if I act and react in certain manner. Problem is that with complex trauma, we react on two fronts. One front is bully - external factor, and another front is our trauma triggers. We fight real threat - someone who is rude and violent, and in the same time we are fighting imaginary flashbacks from the past - something that is ingrained in our brain as injury and repeats itself in situation similar to original trauma. So no wonder we froze, and that we feel fears. It is natural reaction to abnormal situations, abnormal people and abnormal events. Yet society will "explain" us that we are "weak" and that we should be "strong". Society will label as us "shy" and "introverted" while in reality we are HSP, we process life on deeper level than most folks that will appear shy to them, and we fight triggers inside from trauma in childhood, that will appear as weak to society. And in the same time the toxic shame puts our focus on other people and we see other people as gods and witholders of ultimate truth about anything - so they can claim and say whatever they want, and we will never doubt them.
Trust yourself. Your only weapon is to put self worth inside yourself. Accept whatever bully says about you. It is true, so what! We are all bizarre, but many people are bullies and they do not show it, they hide it through bullying. You have to be ok with your weakness and labels that they speak about you. Accept it all and truly love it. This way their words will not be able to hurt you. Your external reference locus of control and trauma bonding will break. Self-validate yourself. Be ok with being weird, stupid, loner, boring and unworthy. And then see what happens. You should calm down a bit and cortex brain will come back online. This means, you will get instructions how to react to bully from inside yourself, from your super ego that was blocked by toxic shame. You will get inner voice telling you how to deal with it.
I did it through yelling and screaming. I never yell and scream, I am never hysterical. I always smile back to bullies and I am always pleasant and I shut up and self censor. Alarm and alert them. If you always shut up - speak up. If you always speak up - shut up. Try out the opposite and see what happens. If you notice bullies - try ignoring him.
This is what I would do (I am not telling this as instruction- just to see how my own common sense would react)
Bully: "Don't you see nobody cares about you" Me: "I see" End of discussion
Bully: "what do you think you could ever achieve" Me: "Meh!" End of discussion, do my thing.
Bully: "You will be alone forever," Me: "Yes, I will" End of discussion, I do not instigate conversation.
Bully: "nobody would ever want you" Me: "Meh!" End of discussion.
(actually, I think he is attracted to you. I see a lot of love buzz here. this guy is in love with you. Without joking. He simply wants your attention. Look how he is obsesses with your free time and what you do outside of school/work. He wants to be your friend or even something more, but he is afraid you will reject him)
Bully: "Yo, lone fuck, what up?" Me. "Well, hello big stud! You look so manly today. Been working out? Those muscles look divine!" Actually I would not end discussion here. This guy is into you. He likes you, he is too dumb to speak it like normal person. This guy wants to befriend you.
See if you can work in that direction. Actually try talking with him. Imagine him like your long lost friend with amnesia. Get interested in him - and see what happens when you start to react to him as friend. Will it be worse?
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(reddit)
"he tries to convince me" Try this: accept it. Accept all that he says. Can you do that? Is there something inside that cannot shake it off what he is saying?
I had this stuck up on what other people said, it stuck on me like a leech, I could not shake it off, it would bother me, it hurt me. I understand now it is either/or/and trauma bonding (External reference locus of control) and trauma trigger (my body pumping out chemicals that keep me feel guilt).
This external reference could be removed by believing in yourself. Opposite to external reference locus on control is internal locus of control, intrincis locus, self worth, self-validation. This is why I keep talking about self-acceptance, that you accept any negative trait. That you build yourself up from what you have, good or bad, with mistakes and flaws, so that you are not ashamed of it anymore.
If you still feel shame, it could be that you are rejecting some other things about yourself - that you didn't put label on by now. IT could be very painful to you that you find difficult to accept. Or it could be this body thing - that inside our body is working against us- by pumping hormones and chemicals that affect our thinking process. Being exposed to trauma in childhood our body was trained like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals to react to gaslighting by feeling guilt, and this hypnosis is done through body. Someone is rude - we feel adrenaline rising. Then this chemical impacts our mood and thought process. In this case, it is also about accepting - but different kind of accepting. It is about knowing this is something under my skin and I cannot control it. I had trauma, and this is reaction to original trauma that I never healed from. It is said that in this case, when we have intrusive thoughts that we cannot shake off - you got to accept those thoughts and shift your focus on something you have to do, some task, chore, or dream, well being. This part is very hard at first. We are being stuck. This is inability to move on, we are immobile. That is trauma itself. So we have to choose our common sense to guide us out of stuck rut. It is like stepping out of the car and giving it a push. You can use this bully to check and experiment how this process is working.
In the end - this bully cannot manage your life. He cannot cut you off from money. He cannot chase you out of your shelter. He cannot remove you. And he is not physically violent, so he cannot harm you in physical way. This gives us a lot of psychological and physical space to make a room for ourselves. When they upset us, they are controlling us. When our emotions get upset - they are in control of our mind, decision and thoughts. The goal is to clear them away from our mobility centre. That they do not guide our actions, thoughts and words any more.
"But why in the world would he be so cruel to me" He has low IQ. He has trauma of his own. He does not want help. He invented his own world, he lives in a fantasy world and he invents his own rules how to communicate with people. We will never understand it, we can't. We cannot access his mind, but we know that bullies and narcissists are psychopaths, sociopaths. They are External Factor. That is why I call it External - because it is external from social norms, it is external from anything we know as reality and as true and truth. They live external to this what we see as world. They are sick. From this perspective, I would feel sorry for him, even though he is cruel to you. He is actually crying for help, but he doesn't know how to seek help. So he decided to be cruel to people, that is his way of communication with others - especially people who appear to him as normal, kind, friendly, open - anything he will never be able to be. So he cannot understand this what it is going on - and he wants to destroy it. He wants to spread the abuse in the same way he was abused. He never received love. We received minimum of love - but never acknowledgment of us as person, this is why we got traumatized. Bullies never received this minimum at love at all, all they got was abuse. This is all they know. Their definition of love and friendship is lensed, filtered and mirrored through abuse - mocking, making fun of others, criticizing, nagging, complaining, belittling.
"Anyways, this guy is a great part of the misery that my life is in right now" Yep, because he is cruel and sick. You are having natural reaction to abnormal person and abnormal situation. And alongside this, we as HSP have mechanism inside to detect fake people. Our alarm will go nuts when these people come near us, the alarm will explode. And to make it more complex - we have trauma and triggers on our own that also set off alarm. So it is no wonder you feel miserable - it would be strange if you wouldn't. If you took it all calmly it would mean that something is not working inside you. Your pain is proof that you are totally normal, kind, normal, friendly and open person. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you.
"I just don’t know how I could ever build up self-confidence" That is it. This is why you are bothered by it. So that you find out how. You got to find functional way how to respond to bullies and still be emotionally regulated.
You said that you read about bullies a lot. But, Do you know what is Complex Trauma? Do you read about narcissistic abuse? IF not, you got to learn what is narcissistic injury and how narcissists hurt their targets. This way, you will know your enemy better.
Also, I would try different things. Did you try to talk with him? Treat him as a friend? It is counter-intuitive. Or can you simply ignore him? Did you try to answer with "I disagree with you." Or simply "Meh".
From what I read about him, I got a strong impression that he wants you as a friend and maybe even as very close, intimate friend. Perhaps if you know him better, you can start talk about him and get to know him better. Maybe you will feel better and less scared when you talk with him alone and ask him why he picks on you? Try out counter-intuitive things, experiment what will happen.
With social anxiety we never break ice. We have all kinds of excuses and actually never do things - and in this way we never move on, we stay stuck.
Perhaps if you find out a way to go out with him on a drink, you might find out that he likes you? Or, if he repels you and you cannot find a way to make any kind of friendship with him, can you try out Grey Rock method? This means be boring on purpose with him. Act indifferently. Either shut up or talk nonsense that is boring. If you yell at him back - this is what he wants. He wants you to lose your cool and behave erratically, so he will have even more supply to mock you.
"His bullying consists of reminding me of how different I am from the society ideal," Yes, bullies will sniff this out very easily. IT is like they have radar inside. We don't have any other choice - we have to be ourselves. Come as you are. Be different. Allow yourself to be different without seeking approval and validation from society.
"how useless I am" This is secret to confidence. That you accept any label. Accept it. Don't fight it - and move on. Do something, some task, something you would do anyway but you would forget to do it since you would worry about how inept you are. This feeling of being useless is toxic shame. Toxic shame is hallucination, it will appear very real to us. We can remove it by not focusing on it, not thinking about it - it means accepting it and moving on to another focus.
Toxic shame and trauma are keep repeating in this. Social anxiety only tries to balance out these triggers and our sensitivity. Social anxiety tries to keep us safe from triggers by running away from them or freezing or fawning and by physical symptoms of panic - so that we respond and react to trigger (in this case bully). We have no choice but to accept it all. Accept toxic shame as hallucination, bullies as external phenomena that we cannot control. Our panic as sensitivity that comes with the birth and our body. All these things are outside of our control. Society that judges and pre-judge us as weak, inept, shy, introverted - all outside of our control. You can talk to one person and explain it all to them, tomorrow you will meet 99 of them who will judge and pre-judge you with labels. The only thing we can control is our self, inside. And due to toxic shame - we can't, since toxic shame inhabits our inner self. So toxic shame must go - this is the only thing we can control. This means: accepting yourself, your symptoms, your labels and anything that scares you inside, anything you find disgusting, accept and be ok with it. If you do this, magically you will get inner voice, inner instruction, inner GPS and inner guidance that will tell you how to react in better manner, more functional and less ego-centric.
Breaking trauma bonding will take time, there will be click in your head when you realize what we are talking about here. You will realize you have power to make your own decisions, to choose your words and experiment with different strategies, with shaky voice, with beating heart, with sense of dread and with trauma virus programming that will try to instill toxic shame back inside you. At the right moment you will realize you count, too. That you have answers what to do and how to handle conflicts.
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(reddit)
Yeah, experiment and see what happens when you are innovative instead of copy-past the same response to trigger (feeling bad about yourself).
I remember reading Elaine Aron book about "HSP" back when I was 21 or 22 - and she basically was telling the same stuff as I am telling you now. Back then I did not believe her. All I had was no experience, and I had no idea that there is anything worthy about me or intelligent. I had no experience so I could not believe her that I have intelligence and that I am allowed to be "weak" and "stupid". I guess it will be hard for you to believe me now - that is why you need time and when you are in actual situations, you will see that you have inner voice inside you, that is guiding you all the time. You will keep it under the cover because for now this voice seems like coward and weak and stupid. You simply have to see what happens when you do make mistakes. When you are "stupid" and "boring" - what happens then. You will see nothing bad happens and that your decisions and opinions and thoughts do matter and that you are not stupid nor boring. People who do not appreciate or respect you, they don't matter. No matter what happens, you are ok just the way you are. We all have puzzles inside, we are unique because we all have some secret message inside us. You'll learn with time not to hide it anymore and that you do not have to be ashamed of it - but in fact be proud of being you.
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(reddit)
Thanks! You're so kind.
"Furthermore, people seem to be attracted by self-confident people"
Nope- people only think this is confidence. They buy into mask. This is why narcissism is sickness, it is fake front. People want quick solutions, people are prone to biases and logical fallacies. And these narcissists exploit this. This is called Machiavellianism. They will lie, they will mock others, they will break social norms and social rules to fit their agenda. They will buy off people with things. They will appear extremely charmful and friendly and helpful. Other people also have social anxiety - but it is in much more low dosage than ours, so they never notice it. But there is still their need for validation and approval from others. And then enters External Factor- bullies exploit this human need and urge to be loved. Bully rapes our need for companionship and warmth. Bully cracked the code to Dark psychology through abuse and narcissism and now he surf the waves of popularity until someone exposes him as fake. Bullies spend their free time thinking how they will exploit other people. We spend as much time dealing with intrusive worry and being in defense.
This is why narcissist become politicians and managers - they like to abuse others, use them as supply and that others look up to them and worship them. They cannot get this from within themselves, due to toxic shame. Unlike us - our self worth is located in other people. They do not have self worth. They destroyed their soul - and now they are emotional vampires and suck energy from other people in order to survive. That is behind them being "confident" and "popular". It is all fake.
" that I have to get more egoitical (which sounds disgusting) and I have to make myself more present to others" It is not what you think. She does not mean loud, obnoxious or center of attention. She means that you are fatally honest, authentic, which means that you own your "weakness" and being "quiet" and express it, be proud of it and that you are fine and ok with being whatever you are, knowing you are not weak nor quiet- these are just labels. If you went through trauma abuse and neglect, of course you will not feel comfortable with people. This does not define you as person neither you as persona. She tells you to be yourself, come as you are - you got to have click in your head to accept yourself totally. This will happen with time, don't force it. You are not ready yet, there is a lot inside you need to sort out, a lot of mystery corners in yourself you did not explore in full. Be patient, you are on the right track.
I wish I had someone to tell me all these when I was 19.
I also was instructed in teenage years by environment that I must be loud, manly and toxic macho, outgoing and party goer. I hate these things from the bottom of my heart, and I am finally ok with being whatever I am. I know that with HSP we have a secret inside ourselves. It is much bigger than anything else. You would not feel all these fears and anxiety if there was not something inside you that is powerful. Bullies sniff this out and they want you to hate yourself and that you stay in fear. They are afraid of people like us, because we are their Armageddon. For example, narcissists can be detected with brain scan. Thus, is enough sensitive people got into politics and power, we can make rule that narcissists stay out of politics and managerial positions and that they are monitored - that they are not allowed to drive cars. With such strategies, we will eradicate narcissists from life. There will be no more crime and abuse. They are afraid of this, they know we are the only ones who can stop them. Other people who are not sensitive do not have detection system neither they are bothered by them nor they understand that all problems they have in their lives is caused by them. Thus other people present no threat to them. So surprisingly, we are the only one who are their predators. But they attack us early on, when we are kids, so that we shut up and self-censor. Without HSPs all people would all be cannibals even today. Earth would be one big asylum, a prison system, something like Lord of the flies scenario. Or Stanford Prison Experiment. We are policemen, we are the judges, we are the teachers, peace troops - we are the ones who change the world to the better. And that is why they bully us. When you are afraid, you shut up and you don't move. Trauma means being immobile, being stuck. And then they are safe to abuse others.
From what you wrote - this bully is definitely narcissists. In this case, you cannot argue with him. He is sick. He lives in his own world and there is no point in talking or arguing or befriending him back again. Since you need time to get rid of external reference locus of control, I would focus on self-validation. Breaking trauma bonds will happen as soon as you accept yourself without excuses, unconditionally.
Don't block your sensitivity. Let it guide you. Find your answers in books, movies, internet. Anxiety is "cured" by action - and paradox is that we can't move due to anxiety. See if you can do anything in this department. Can you force yourself to hiking possibly? Anything you life to do. Be patient with yourself. And work in direction to accept yourself, that is the correct path. It sound stupid and cliche but be patient with yourself. There will come the situation and time when you will understand what that means, to trust yourself and your own resources.
For now, try Grey rock method with this bully. Be boring on purpose, intentionally. Accept anything he says as true and move on. Just shift your focus on tasks to be done - even if this means looking out of the window.
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> Changing this mentality is going to be challenging to say the least, but deep inside me, I think I can at some point in time, be the person I once was
But that is the point. You don't have to change anything. You are already at the destination. It only seems like you need to change and transform. The only thing that is pathological are our responses to triggers. We learned to over-react, to see danger where there is none. Or under-react - to ignore the danger and miss red flags. This part is distorted. Also, person that you once was is here. If you see Polyvagal Theory chart - the green means we are relaxed. This is when Cortex brain is operating - we are at ease and we can handle and manage life. However yellow and red part are over-arousal (hyper arousal) and under-arousal (hypo arousal). With trauma we are constantly in yellow and red zone. And from our point of view it seems that we are different person from the one who was before Social Anxiety. Nope, we are simple emotionally dysregulated. This part a lot of psychiatrist and medical official personnel does not understand because they never felt it or they are not aware they are dysregulated themselves.
When we are dysregulated, we are like in a brain fog, we have veil over our face and reality is like looking through a gaze. And this appears as panic attacks - that are particularly visible during bully abuse (which triggers us to trauma response). We are in a state of amygdala hijacking. We are operating from lizard brain.
Narcissists pick our nerves and our strings and our triggers - and they keep us up in this arousal state. To us, it seems as we are weak, boring, stupid, panicked and inept. It is because we believe we cannot manage life - and we can't. When we are dysregulated and when there is amygdala hijacking - our brain is in safe mode. It can operate only the basics. It cannot fully operate. And to us it seems like we are socially anxious, while we are in this arousal state of emotional dysregulation and amygdala hijacking.
There is nothing to change about yourself, you are exactly as you suppose to be in stress state. Instead of changing and fixing our persona (which Classical CBT suggests too - because they did not base their solution to social anxiety on people who really are socially anxious, they based it on people who were mildly shy) - instead of fixing our "weakness" it is about how to regulate ourselves, how to avoid triggers and how to recognize triggers and how to minimize triggers and reaction to flashbacks. This is totally different than trying to change our symptoms and our persona approach. We have no problem with social anxiety, our problem is Complex Trauma. Classical CBT will tell you to calm down - that is why they suggest taking medication - but this will not help, since the problem is trauma and triggers.
Trauma means we have toxic shame - which is we do not believe in ourselves - we were programmed in childhood to distrust our emotions, feelings, thoughts and beliefs. So now when I tell you to self-validate and believe in yourself - you actually cannot understand what this means - it is because we grew up without love and acceptance. This is totally foreign concept for us. Without love - toxic shame guide us in life. Toxic shame exports our self worth into external locus of control - and we see everything in life through the eyes of other people. But from socially anxiety perspective - we are also not aware of this. We think we are making decisions, but no. We base our actions based on what we think other people will approve. We are governed by guilt, and we are not aware of this, too. To us it seems normal that we have this chronic worry and hypervigilance inside. That we expect the next blow and attack from others. Other people are gods in our eyes, their words and commands appear as ultimate truth to us.
With social anxiety - we are under hypnosis and we are not aware that our decisions are governed by the other people.
You can break the spell and realize this is true - by simple test. Descartes Evil demon hypothesis: Start doubting everyone. Doubt every single word they speak out to you and to others. Give every sentence addition "and maybe they lie and this is false" in your head. Also, start doubting yourself. Every single thought and belief and perception and conclusions, and rules and obligations you have - just add at the end: "...and maybe this is bias and logical fallacy".
When you start to doubt, your brain will try to make up the alternatives - which will surprise you what these are. You will be able to catch people lie more easily. People lie. People are not always honest. They make up white lies.
With social anxiety - we are HSPs, we are very honest and we believe other people and we do not understand that perhaps people lie and they are not sincere.
Make this in experiment. The next time bully says to you that you are stupid because you are alone - add in your head the doubt "...and this could be big fat lie." Allow yourself to doubt other people. This will break trauma bonding.
The point is that you start believing yourself and that you start to think from inside yourself. With panic and anxiety - we are like in a vacuum. We are not aware of this, but we float in space - and naturally we will try to grab onto anything around us. So we grab onto other people - whatever they say, we trust, since we are in vacuum, we have no choice, we have nothing else to grab onto to grab firm position and to stop spinning.
But we do have something to grab other than people - it is ourselves. That is our self-worth and self-validation, that you accept your mentality as it is right now. With flaws and mistakes and with everything you do not like about yourself, and everything that other people told you that they dislike about you. Accept it all as ok. See what happens.
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(reddit)
People with social anxiety have excellent communication skills. This is myth from people who do not experience social anxiety. To others we appear as we are lacking them.
We have empathy - that is excellent social skill. Other people pay big bucks to learn it - and we have it naturally.
What we need to practice are triggers and trauma responses. We get emotionally dysregulated by people and events similar to original trauma. For me, these are hysterical and rude people. Once we are triggered and dysregulated we appear as we have no communication skills, and that we need to improve our talking skills. So we try to fix something that is not broken. We may spend time, money and energy into something that does not need our focus.
When we accept our fears and panic as normal reaction to abnormal situations, abnormal people and abnormal events from our trauma past, we will get less and less aroused, and our ability to "talk" will come back online.
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(14.2.2022)
I realized it is not about act of standing up at all. This is explanation by society that is not HSP. They operate by putting on a mask and playing a character.
We cannot do be bold and brush people off, because we are honest and genuine and we don't want to hurt other people, and this gets us trapped in position where we are taken advantage of.
In this position toxic shame is at battle with our ability to deep stimuli process. Without HSP abilities, we would turn to be narcissists, abusers, exploiters. This means, we would believe in paranoia that we are in danger (narcissistic injury) and that our ego needs constant protection (narcissistic supply) - by being rude to others. With social anxiety we are protected from abusing others, but in the same time we are hurting ourselves because we shut up and self-censor due to toxic shame.
Some people with social anxiety found the solution "to stand up for themselves" by being rude to others, throwing temper tantrums and behaving hysterically. Now they no longer have social anxiety but they have issues with being anti-social which appear social anxiety to them (when they google their own symptoms).
It is not about standing up for ourselves. This is mis-label. That is why we can't stand up for ourselves, because we think standing up for ourselves means being rude to others, entering conflict and confrontation. Nope. That is being jerk and being aggressive destroys relationships - you end up alone - and therefore there is nothing to stand up against to - since people will leave us. We cannot control other people, thinking that we can control other people is cognitive distortion. This is why Assertiveness says - that we can state our opinion but never expect that other person will fawn over us and go along with our ideas and orders.
In the end - it is about being honest. Being authentic and speaking the truth - which we already do want anyways. It is about voicing out the elephant in the room - something that is obvious to us, but somehow nobody mentions it. We see it. But.. we shut up. We self-censor. Why? Because of toxic shame - which was implanted by trauma during childhood. We were programmed to obey and to be subservient - that is how we learn "not to stand up" for ourselves. The abuse is solidified by our body - our body will release chemicals and hormones when we do "stand up" for ourselves: when we warn and alert someone, we will feel tremendous guilt. This guilt is coming from our hormones and chemicals inside us, but to us it appears as though process: I am wrong. I am inept. I am stupid. I am not doing the correct thing - even when I am doing the most correct thing in the world - warning someone or telling it how it is. Toxic shame messes our self worth. Our self worth is exported into other people. Thus without knowing consciously, we are filtering our world, perceptions through other people. This is called trauma bonding. We advocate for other people without being aware we are doing this. We filter and see world through other people's lens, because our self worth is in other people. Our toxic shame prevents ourselves to know what we want, what makes us happy, what makes us angry - instead - all these questions are mirrored and processed through the minds, opinions and voices of other people. Thus we will even pre-emptively do things to please other people in order to avoid their anger, wrath and their hysteria - just as we learned in childhood, when we were traumatized into fear and being afraid of other people, other people's words, other people's criticism and their corporal punishment. Pre-emptive attempts that we perform in order to go along with other people's desire and what we think will make others happy - is the definition of social anxiety itself.
Triggers and flashbacks and toxic people do not make this process any easier.
The solution is to be yourself. To accept yourself as whatever you are. With all flaws and mistakes. We break trauma bonding by speaking out our opinion - what we want from our intrinsic locus of control - instead of filtering our opinion based on what we expect other people would want (external reference locus of control). We can know what we want only when we validate and love ourselves in full, without holding back. That is self worth being located inside ourselves. So the process of "standing up for myself" is actually just voicing out our opinion, our own desires, thoughts, needs and wants. It means being what will be labelled by unwitting people as "critical". Glasser's communication tips help us with this. Glasser says that effective communication tips are; Glasser Connecting habits: Listening, Supporting, Encouraging, Negotiating, Respecting, Accepting, Trusting.
On the other hand Glasser describes dysfunctional way how to stand up for yourself: Controlling habits: Blaming, Criticizing, Complaining, Nagging, Rewarding to control, Threatening, Punishing
From socially anxious perspective we can therefore see, that surprisingly we are already having this process of "standing up for myself" already inside us, we were born with it: Listening, Supporting, Encouraging, Negotiating, Respecting, Accepting, Trusting.
However due to trauma we were made silent - and our silence is the only problem here. Not "being not able to stand up for myself". And we cannot start to talk as long as toxic shame is inside us. Toxic shame is hallucination. Once gone, our self-worth will come back inside us - and then we can voice out ourselves, we will be able to express ourselves - with our natural talent to "stand up for ourselves".
"You've Always Had The Power My Dear, You Just Had To Learn It For Yourself"
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(reddit)
That is the problem, our anxiety lies to us. It has credibility of car salesman. This process is better than through writing.
Social anxiety is like having veil over your face, you won't see the world clearly. Thus we will mis-label our thoughts, emotions, actions. Especially when we are being triggered - our lizard brain will take over due to amygdala hijacking. And this happens very often since we have social anxiety. When our cortex brain is not working, it is hard to discern what is real or not - since all the power is used to survive and to react to triggers. The brain does not care if triggers are real or imagined. When triggered, we go into chronic worry state and anxiety governs our thoughts.
I learned that at the root of all trauma, social anxiety, triggers and non-confidence is: guilt. Guilt is the controlling tool for our toxic shame to feel inept and without confidence, and this is tool for toxic people to control us into subservience and pleasing them. And we do it willingly because we believe in this irrational implanted guilt. It is not even shame, it appears as guilt, as if we rob the bank or caused mass extinction. I would focus on locating, identifying and removing this guilt in whatever form it appears.
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(reddit)
Yeah, before I go into guilt section, just to make sure - I find writing excellent tool for clearing out our thoughts and emotions. I do it through blogging. I sort out all ideas I read in book and go through scientific evaluation of what is bothering me and what seems to be problem and what is going on. Writing is I think one of the best tools to sooth and clarify Social anxiety - it is easy, you can do it anywhere and it is free. And it works, it is soothing and relaxing.
Regarding the guilt - I would note that social anxiety is based on trauma (CPTSD). It is not genetic. HSP is genetic. Anxiety isn't. Then comes toxic shame - and this irrational shame is caused by trauma and society and ourselves -when we try to label our emotions and what we feel as "shy" "introverted" "dangerous" "boring" "stupid" "weird" etc. We pathologize our normal reactions to abnormal situations, abnormal events and abnormal people. We make ourselves guilty for trauma and for having reaction to trauma and for having physical symptoms such as panic.
When we are anxious we will attract toxic people into out lives. So we have 3 elements here that produce guilt and shame: 1) trauma 2) toxic people and 3) our own brain. We were programmed in childhood to distrust our emotions, opinions and ourselves - we were taught that we are unworthy - through relentless criticism 24/7 and being exposed to adult hysteria which child brain is unable to process in any other way than internalizing toxic shame and immature ego defense mechanisms such as introjection (soaking up other people emotions and opinions as our own). This process is motorized and energized by guilt, irrational guilt.
Guilt can be used as hypnosis - other people can control us very easily when they employ Dark psychology. Some toxic people do this unconsciously - as they learned in their trauma childhood, while some people do this intentionally, they studied it and they do this on purpose (Machiavellians).
So how it works? For men - it is very easy. I say you are sissy if you wear certain clothes. You will never wore them again, you are under my control now, you are feeling guilt - that you broke man macho code. From your perspective this will not appear as guilt. It will appear as rule, obligation, status - anything that you find important to your ego. In social media - narcissists will post perfect pictures of themselves and their perfect lives - and we will feel guilty for not having enough money, time or courage to be fancy like them. Guilt will drive us perhaps to do crime in order to make money? Or we will simply feel miserable - but still, it is guilt inside hidden - guilt for not achieving the social status of what is considered acceptable and beautiful and grandiose.
I would encourage each one of you - to study, write and examine like scientist every single negative emotions - and you will see that at its heart lies the guilt. This is fear of other people opinion. This is called external reference locus of control. Or trauma bonding or Stockholm Syndrome. So we are slaves to other people without being aware of it, and if we break the unwritten code of what is expected of us - we will feel guilty. We are under hypnosis. This happens because of toxic shame inside us. Due to trauma. Toxic shame is internalized belief that we are unworthy, inept, stupid, weird, that our mistakes are unacceptable, that we must be perfect or suffer punishments, that our opinion does not matter and whatever we do - if it is not explicitly approved by other people - it is wrong and stupid and unacceptable. That is toxic shame. From our perspective - we don't perceive it like toxic shame. We were been normalized to abuse. It is normal to be perfect and to strive to be superior. Because society is narcissistic and sick itself. Society tells us that we have to be super confident and out going. That we have to be friendly to everyone and that we have to fight and be monsters when someone is enemy. That we show that we can bully and attack others. If we don't - we will feel guilty. Marketing and politicians use this guilt too, they hypnotize us into buying their products or otherwise we would be lame or losers. Mostly right wing politicians will explain us that nationalism is priority and we should feel guilty if we criticize certain aspects in politics - system that is corrupt. That our country it above everything and that if we don't accept abuse and violence - that we are unworthy citizens.
Easiest way to control men is to label people as cowards. And you will feel guilty if you do something that is considered cowardly. In the movie The Manchurian Candidate (1962) Frank Sinatra's character tries to explain this as "links". "Anybody invites you to a game of solitaire, you tell 'em, "Sorry, buster. The ball game is over."" Having guilt is being brainwashed. I would suggest that we develop Descarte's Evil demon hypothesis where we doubt other people, doubt whatever they claim and say, and that we also doubt ourselves, our own thoughts, especially our anxiety - which has credibility of car salesmen. Anxiety lies to us. Anxiety is brainwashing us with lies through guilt tripping.
Narcissistic abuse is filled with guilt. They use gaslighting methods and smear campaign - all based on guilt.
In movie Daniel (1983), it is nicely said: "What is motivation for a man to do what he did? Well one motivation is to believe or to have been persuaded to believe in his own guilt. And to live in mortal fear of the consequences."
I see our ability to detect and extradite guilt will improve in feeling less chronic worry and it will lessen our social anxiety panic symptoms.
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(reddit)
The Breakfast Club (1985) Has amazing scene with high school kids sitting and talking about relationship between them. They don't know each other at the start of movie, and we can see how they form a bond up to this moment. It is something we missed in high school. They talk honestly, scream at each other, to get their point across but without malevolence. - What has going to happen with us on Monday? I consider you guys friend. - Are we still friends? You want the truth? I don't think so. If Brian came walking to you in hallway on Monday what would you do? You with all the sports. You know exactly what you would do. You'd say hi to him and when he left, you would cut him of so your friends wouldn't think you really liked him. - You don't got the balls to stand up to your friends and tell them that you're gonna like who you wanna like! - What about you? At heavy metal party? What would your friends say if they saw us together. You would probably tell them that you are doing with me so that they forgive you for being seen with me. - I wouldn't do that. It's really shitty. - Your friends would mind because they look up to us. - You're so conceited, Claire. So full of yourself. Why are you like that? - I'm not saying that to be conceited. I hate it. I hate having to go along with everything my friends say. - Why do you do it? - I don't know. You don't understand... You're not friends with same kind of people. You just don't understand the pressure that they can put on you.
Daniel (1983) This one is surprisingly about social anxiety from political point of view. It is fictional story about kids of American spies who sold nuclear secrets to USSR and they had to live with social shame because of it. - You say what is motivation for man to do what he did? Well one motivation is to believe or to have been persuaded to believe in his own guilt. And to live in mortal fear of the consequences. (...) In another scene one of children now grown up - talks about how she found self worth in chaos: - When my father went to prison, my mother and I suffered terribly. But something good happened, too. You see, I discovered resources in myself I otherwise might not have.
Pump up the volume (1990) This one was the social anxiety movie when I was growing up. It is about ending self-censorship and not shutting up. - Come on, say something. Say anything! Open your mouth and say "get the hell out of here, bitch." - I can't. - You can't what? - I can't talk. - Sure you can talk. - I can't talk to you! Hard Harry: I got a letter from this guy who has a problem. He can't talk. I mean, he can talk, but never when he wants to, not, not to girls, not to people. He just opened up his mouth, and nothing came out. Then this jerk finds somebody that he likes which is probably the worst thing that can happen to a person that can't talk. So I mean I don't know what to tell this guy because lately, every time I give advice the fit hits the shan. So... I don't know, maybe the...best thing to do is just turn around...face the music and try to talk.
They're saying that something is wrong with me...that I should be ashamed! Well...I'm-- I'm sick of being ashamed. I don't mind being dejected and rejected but I'm not going to be ashamed about it. At least pain is real. You-- you look around, and you see nothing is real. I'm a phony fuck just like my dad! Just like anybody. You see, the real me is just as worried as the rest of you. They say I'm disturbed. Of course I'm disturbed! I mean, we're all disturbed, and if we're not, why not? Doesn't this blend of blindness and blandness want to make you do something crazy? Then why not do something crazy? It makes a hell of a lot more sense than blowing your fucking brains out! You know? Go nuts! Go crazy! Get creative! They think you've got attitude? You show 'em some real attitude. Get crazy! Hey! No more Mr. Nice Guy! Pump Up the Volume (1990)
No more hiding. Listen. Hard Harry: We're all worried. We're all in pain. That just that comes with having eyes, with having ears. But just remember one thing. It can't get any worse. It can only get better. I mean, high school is the bottom. Being a teenager sucks, but that's the point. Surviving it is the whole point. Quitting is not going to make you strong. Living will, so just hang on and hang in there. You know, I.. I know all about the hating and the sneering. I'm a member of the "Why bother?" generation myself. But why did I bother to come out here tonight? And why did you? It begins with us, not with politicians the experts, or the teachers, but with us. With you and with me. The ones who need it most. I believe with everything that's in me that the whole world is longing for healing. You can hear it everywhere. It's the same kind of healing I desperately needed and...finally feel has begun with you. Speak out. They can't stop you. Find your voice and use it. It's your life. Take charge of it. Do it. Try it, try anything. Pump Up the Volume (1990)
Everyone thinks they know how a person should be. Who cares how I should be, you know? I mean, in real life, I-- I could be that anonymous nerd sitting across from you in chem lab... staring at you so hard... Then when you turn around... he tries to smile... but the smile just comes out all wrong. Pump up the volume (1990)
You have movies, magazines and TV telling you what to do but you know what you have to do. Huh? Your job, your purpose is to get accepted, get a cute girlfriend think up something great to do for the rest of your life. What if you're confused and can't imagine a career? What if you're funny-looking and can't get a girlfriend? You see, no one wants to hear it. But the terrible secret...is that being young...is sometimes less fun... Pump Up the Volume (1990)
Ordinary People (1980) This one was Robert Redford Academy winning movie. This scene describes personality disorder, but it could as well describe Social anxiety, too: I don't know. It was like... falling into a hole. It was like falling into a hole and it keeps getting bigger and bigger, and you can't get out. Then, all of a sudden, it's inside, and you're the hole, and you're trapped and it's all over. Something like that. And it's not really scary, except it is when you think back on it, cos you know that what you were feeling was strange and new...
This scene also resonates with social anxiety: - Why do things have to happen to people? It isn't fair. - You're right. It isn't fair. - You just do one wrong thing and... - And what was the one wrong thing you did? - I hung on. I stayed with the boat. - Now, you can live with that, can't you? - I'm scared! I'm scared... - feelings are scary. And sometimes they're painful. And if you can't feel pain, then you're not gonna feel anything else either. You know what I'm saying? You're here and you're alive. And don't tell me you don't feel that.
Bad things happen even when people are careful. Ordinary People (1980)
Inside Daisy Clover (1965) Natalie Wood did "The Great Race" (1965) only to obey her wish to star in this movie. Apparently it was big bestseller at that time. It is about boyish girl who gets taken advantage by Hollywood showbiz and cracks under pressure but decide to declare the war against it. She finds her self worth. Film starts and ends with this quote: - The Prince of Darkness took me in his arms. And I almost gave myself the works. -But I haven't let it go to my head. I'm still the same happy, adjusted, polite young lady. And I'll bet my simple healthy instincts against yours any day.
Total Recall (1990) Getting in touch with what you are really inside. Many self help gurus and Classical CBT try to make us up into social confident animal - but this is pathologizing our true soul inside. This scene resonate with getting in touch with yourself, and that taking actions is healthy: - What do you want, Mr Quaid? - The same as you. To remember. - But Why? - To be myself again. - You are what you do. A man is defined by his actions... not his memory. Please take my hands. Now open your mind to me. Please. Open your mind.
The Night of the Iguana (1964)
Movie shows lizard brain actually and it has it in its title itself. - Drink isn't your problem, Mr Shannon. And what is my problem, Miss Jelkes? The oldest one in the world. The need to believe in someone, or something. Almost anyone. Almost anything. - Your voice sounds hopeless about it. - Oh, no, I'm not hopeless about it. In fact, I've... I've discovered something to believe in. What? Broken barriers between people. A wanting to help each other. Through nights like this. One-night stands. One-night communications between them. On a veranda... ..outside their separate cubicles. You don't mean physically, do you? - No. - I didn't think you did.
In this scene, I got clear direction in my life - that is related to social anxiety toxic shame- We feel guilty all the time - however - we should feel guilty only if we have done something wrong or if we are evil. And we are incapable of doing wrong due to high empathy, this scene describes difference between good and evil: - And that experience, you call that a...? - A love experience? Yes, I do, Mr Shannon. That sad little, dirty little episode, you call it a... Sad, it certainly was for the poor little man. But why do you call it dirty? You mean you weren't disgusted by it? Nothing human disgusts me, Mr Shannon. Unless it's unkind or violent.
This scene deals with amygdala hijacking, when you are in panic mode: I think the spook is exorcised, Mr Shannon. You've ceased to struggle. And acceptance of life is surely the first requisite for living it. Who was the person you told Maxine you'd helped through a crackup like this? Oh, that. Myself. Oh. Oh, you? Oh, yes. I had a spook like yours once. I just had a different name for him. I used to call him the "blue devil." - And we had quite a contest between us. - Which you... Which you won. I couldn't afford to lose. How did you...? How did you beat this blue devil of yours? I showed him I could endure him. - And made him respect my endurance. - How? Just by enduring. Endurance is something that spooks and blue devils respect.
And they respect all the tricks... ..that panicky people use to outwit and outlast their panic. Like taking a few deep, deep breaths? Or rum-cocos. Or even beach boys. Anything. Everything we do to give them the slip. So keep on going. To where? To somewhere like this, perhaps. After long and difficult travels... ..the subterranean travels that the spooked and bedeviled take... ..through the unlighted sides of their own natures until finally... ..they see a faint gray light. And keep climbing towards it. Are you still following that faint gray light? Any light is a good light to see by at the end of a long, dark tunnel... ..that you thought would be never-ending. That only God or death could put a stop to. Especially when you... Since I was far from sure about God.
Slaughterhouse-Five (1972) This movie explains that we accept good and bad and keep it in balance: - He has always pressed it. And he always will. We always let him, and we always will let him. The moment is structured that way.
On Tralfamadore you learn that the world... is just a collection of moments all strung together in beautiful, random order. And if we're going to survive, it's up to us to concentrate on the good moments... and ignore the bad. Slaughterhouse-Five (1972) The pleasant way to spend eternity is to ignore the bad times, and concentrate on the good. Slaughterhouse-Five (1972)
You are here, you have always been here, and you will always be here. Slaughterhouse-Five (1972)
The Stanford Prison Experiment (2015)
Zimbardo's experiment made into movie shows what happens when "normal" and "healthy" people are put in situation that causes social anxiety. Zimbardo actually after this controversial experiment founded a clinic and he studied shyness. He was social anxiety pioneer, but it was not called social anxiety back then. It didn't have name in the 1970s. Nobody said, "You can't say those things to me. Those things are sick." Nobody said that. And nobody questioned my authority at all. And it really shocked me. I started to abuse And still, people didn't say anything.
The Stanford Prison Experiment (2015) I wanted to see just what kind of verbal abuse people can take before they start objecting, before they start lashing back. It really surprised me that nobody said anything to stop me.
The Stanford Prison Experiment (2015) You know, you give them the uniform and they simply can't be the same person as if they wore street clothes. Meanwhile, I'm just a number in a dress. That's the thing; I wasn't a prisoner in an experiment. I was their prisoner.
The Stanford Prison Experiment (2015) ...and I was sitting there, going, "What's wrong with these kids? "Why don't they just quit? "What are they trying to prove? What are they so afraid of?" It's you. They are afraid of you.
The Stanford Prison Experiment (2015) We're trying to strip away their individuality... Make them uniform, feminize them. Take away all the things that make them them. You see, we're trying to understand how an institution affects an individual. The Stanford Prison Experiment (2015)
The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie (1972)
In this movie, the main characters are in a dream - having dinner, and at one point the curtain lifts up and they are in theatre. They show obvious signs of social anxiety -being judged and observed, at spotlight literally. And they leave the dinner table in panic attack. Again, similar to Stanford - we see what happens when people who do not have social anxiety act - when they are forced to be in a extraordinary and abnormal situation - they act as we do with social anxiety. Social anxiety is not abnormal. It is normal reaction to abnormal situation, abnormal people and abnormal events. Classical CBT and self help gurus try to convince us that we must be party animals and super confident - but this is not the point. Our true self is exported outside of ourselves and we are triggered in panic mode due to trauma. We don't have to fix ourselves neither over-compensate. We have to tackle the trauma, triggers, not social anxiety symptoms.
The Adventures of Mark Twain (1985)
There is no other life; life itself is only a vision and a dream for nothing exists but space and you. And you are but a thought. (solipsism scene)
I would add that the book is worth reading because of red spider and elephant analogy. This scene teach us that there is External factor - toxic people who are so incredibly cruel, and we are not aware that these people control us, they have grandiose sense of self and paranoia:
Men have nothing in common with me—there is no point of contact; they have foolish little feelings and foolish little vanities and impertinences and ambitions; their foolish little life is but a laugh, a sigh, and extinction; and they have no sense. Only the Moral Sense. I will show you what I mean. Here is a red spider, not so big as a pin's head. Can you imagine an elephant being interested in him—caring whether he is happy or isn't, or whether he is wealthy or poor, or whether his sweetheart returns his love or not, or whether his mother is sick or well, or whether he is looked up to in society or not, or whether his enemies will smite him or his friends desert him, or whether his hopes will suffer blight or his political ambitions fail, or whether he shall die in the bosom of his family or neglected and despised in a foreign land? These things can never be important to the elephant; they are nothing to him; he cannot shrink his sympathies to the microscopic size of them. Man is to me as the red spider is to the elephant. The elephant has nothing against the spider—he cannot get down to that remote level; I have nothing against man. The elephant is indifferent; I am indifferent. The elephant would not take the trouble to do the spider an ill turn; if he took the notion he might do him a good turn, if it came in his way and cost nothing. I have done men good service, but no ill turns. The Mysterious Stranger, Mark Twain
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(15.2.2022)
Amazing! I love it: "Elizabeth Gilbert says about fear on the creative journey: it gets a seat, it gets a voice, but it doesn't get a vote. It doesn't get to decide where you go next."
and: Kathleen Murphy: "What is one thing I would change next time? Not focusing on negative, but what I can improve upon. It's constructive."
I see "critic" as injury. From psychological perspective, it is some kind of (hidden) trauma. And trauma makes us stuck, immobile and inactive. It has roots in toxic shame. Toxic shame is inner core belief that I am inept, unworthy and that I do not count, whereas other people are important and superior - and now I have external reference locus of control: other people control my actions, their opinions, criticism and comment and usually end result is by doing nothing - stopping all work and abandoning further action. From this perspective I see "inner critic" as guilt imposed by actually by "external" critics - real or imagined, but due to our ego-centrism and Confirmation bias we are not aware of External Factor influencing us. It appears to us as "inner" critic.
This sounds complex, but tips how to remove this "evil" is described in your video - not fighting it, accepting it and focusing on what I can improve the next time.
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I discovered that chemicals and hormones play a crucial role in my thought process. This was mind blowing to me - that something inside my body is governing and controlling my thoughts. Let's just think about this for a minute, what does this means.
It means that our body is drugging us into fear and anxieties. It is like drug dealer from withing - you cannot kick it out or re-locate or call the police to exterminate it. Body is our enemy, from this perspective.
Also body then drugs us into codependency - when we feel panic it is natural to feel toxic shame and inept and unable to manage life - so the next conclusions are that we are passive participants in life, whereas other people - who appear without panic symptoms - appear as superior and better and we should look at other people as gods. This can lead to external reference locus of control, where I am inferior and other people's words, opinions and criticism is the correct and valid and should never be questioned. So this chemicals do psychological damage - but from our perspective - it is unknown. OR we might learn from narcissists to scapegoat - that we look for sacrificial lambs and go into Crusade mode against the "evil". SO we will have You tube instant self help gurus who will explain to us that social anxiety can be cured by being super confident- which is overcompensation. Or some will claim that people pleasing is manipulation and weakness and we should be strong instead, be hysterical and aggressive, monsters (such as Jordan Peterson tries to claim).
I see this chemicals and hormones as the result of Complex trauma, being surrounded by relentless criticism 24/7 when growin up, being exposed to adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process it in any other way than internalizing toxic shame. So we got trained like circus animals or Pavlovian dogs into secreting these liquids automatically in our body when we are in the presence of our trauma triggers - real or imagined, when we face perceived or real danger.
"We prolong this by our thoughts" Yep. Correct! And our toxic shame is doing this mechanism. Trying to please other people, events or situations whom we see as dangerous - as learned in trauma.
"Stop going places, you restrict your life" That is result of trauma. Immobility, being stuck, inactivity. Long term exposure to narcissistic injury causes brain damage - and we can get brain injury - which combined with chemicals and hormones inside our body solidify the cycle of panic attacks. But we are not aware of our body setting up these settings. Due to Confirmation Bias and ego.centrism we explain our fears from long conclusions - and we end up with Cognitive distortions and immature ego defense mechanisms, as learned in childhood. Such as introjection - soaking up other people's words and opinions as our own command.
"adding second fear" Yep, additional anxieties on top of the original trauma.
"and then you have to take action" I learned in psychology this is called Behavioural Activation Therapy. I see it like stepping out of the car and giving it a push, since our brain is injured. We wait for our brain to start feeling good and we think we will take action then. Due to brain injury, the brain is unable to pick itself up. The floods of hormones and chemicals keep us stuck. So it is up to our common sense, gathered knowledge from videos like this one and our instinct and intuition to guide us out of rut - shifting focus on things we would do anyways, that we would forget to do - since we would spend out time on trying to solve intrusive worry and panic. There are always some chores to be done, our dreams to fulfill - we just don't have time for them, since our body is keeping us stuck in panic and PureOCD intrusive worry loops solving the unsolvable. I trust that this information about our body and brain being malfunctioning can encourage us to take Cognitive Defusion and filter out anxiety thoughts that stem from toxic shame & trauma versus thoughts from the common sense and our super-ego to guide us in life.
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(reddit)
"so many people act like social anxiety is something easy to fix. They give advice" This thinking is part of social anxiety. Why would we observe others advice and comment as valid and true? Why would such careless advice hurt us and be pain, since we know what anxiety is and how it manifest itself? It is because we see other people as gods, their opinions, advice, comments, criticism - it is observed and labelled and perceived as superior, while our panic, fears, anxiety is seen as inferior by us and society.
Toxic shame makes us distrust our feelings and emotions - including our fears and panics that are based in trauma. Toxic shame is ingrained belief that we are inept to lead life, that our thoughts are worthless, that our opinions does not matter. Then our brain must make choices and decisions every day about anything in life - with that attitude and belief. Brain will be unable to function if we deeply believe that our panic, feelings and emotions are invalid and unvalued. To solve this issue of making decisions and having disbelief in ourselves - external reference locus of control happens. We start to process every decision, thought and opinion through the eyes of other people. Everything is filtered and mirrored through other people. And we are not aware of this process. From our perspective, this will appear as irritation by others, their anger will be felt very painfully - and we'll try to people please them in order for their anger to calm down. We might simply shut up and self-censor ourselves in order not to rock the boat, since other people criticism is too painful for us to bare. Also, we'll try to fix other people's problems so that we don't listen to their naggings and constant complaining and cursing or any kind of negative emotion that is felt very painfully inside us, due to this external locus. So what next happens is trauma bonding, unhealthy relationship with other people. We are not on par with others. And this turns into full blown social anxiety. To make anxiety more solidified - there is our body: - pumping hormones and chemicals, as learned in childhood to react to abuse, as circus animals or Pavlovian dogs, our body reacts when we try to stand up for ourselves or when we speak the truth and be centre of attention - we will feel rush of panic due due serge of these liquids in our body. From our perspective - this appears as guilt and inner critic and negative emotions. As kids we learned to go along with these thoughts and we developed immature ego defense mechanisms and cognitive distortions to manage all this mess. - brain injury. Long term exposure to narcissistic abuse causes brain damage - and now we are stuck with brain injury - google it. This in essence is Complex Trauma being stuck inside our body. To us, from our perspective this will appear as over-reaction to triggers (real or imagined), flashbacks, flash bulb images. Also this injury or wound manifest itself as being stuck, being immobile, inactive, as Pure OCD: intrusive thoughts, intrusive worry loops, trying to solve the unsolvable in our heads cycle.
This sounds complex - but solution is criminally easy. And it is the third wave of CBT: DBT and Humanistic Psychology. Which tells us: self-validation. That we accept ourselves. This way we will banish toxic shame, the root mechanism that is causing all this mess. With toxic shame we are in constant hypervigilance (Polyvagal Theory), in chronic worry. When we accept ourselves, our faults, mistakes, flaws, caprices, rules, obligations, perfectionism, panic, anxiety - as natural part of us, magically it will lessen. The point is that we start moving, that we do not worry and that we are active. That we speak up and alarm and alert rude people - whom we could not interact with due to external locus of control and inferiority complex and belief that other people are gods. While every panic inside us is sign of our "weakness".
Self validation leads to discovery of HSP - that we are naturally prone to over think. Our body is made that way. Society will ashame it - and cause toxic shame and trauma by explaining our own traits to us as symptoms and illness. We are naturally prone to deep stimuli process - society will explain this to us as pathology, as panic attacks. And we will believe them - and thus we will enter into toxic shame, invalidation of ourselves. We need time to process - society will label this as "shy" and "introverted" - and we will start acting shy, because society told us to.
With self validation we will build our confidence. And we will less be reactive to triggers and stay in relaxed green zone of Polyvagal Theory iconographic.
"Society attacks early on, when individual is helpless" quote by B. F. Skinner
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(16.2.2022)
Yeah, I see it like we have brain inside that is seeing the big picture, we let it guide us, not that we over take its job and do the big picture process instead of the brain who is created to process the big picture. Our job is step by step execution of big picture, not messing up with the process.
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People pleasing and being nice is not personal choice. It appears so on the surface. It is trauma based, it is not something you can remove by choosing "not to be nice". Otherwise, there would be too nice people.
You advice is honest description of detrimental results of being pushover, but this is the same as telling women for being weak because they get payed less then men. Society is sick. Environment is sick. Elements that are contributing to people pleasing are sick. You cannot remove those elements by talking about it or by logic. Problem is much deeper and it is related to toxic shame. Toxic shame is hallucination - and you never ever mentioned it in your video. So how can heal something if you created labyrinth of more shaming and guilt tripping the people who already have shame and guilt?
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Being too nice is not personal choice. It is not something you remove by thinking about it, or by logically thinking stop being too nice. IT is connected to trauma and toxic shame. Unfortunately, you have not mentioned neither of these.
Think about it, if people know that the solution is to say no, there would be no people pleasers, everybody would stop helping other people long time ago and say no to others.
Toxic shame is hallucination and it is delusion - so believing I am inept is false reality appearing as real. Abuse is lack of self-validation and self-acceptance. These concepts are not covered in your video, only logical advice - that people pleasers are hearing all their lives anyways. It does not work.
Also you never mention toxic environment. What about narcissistic abuse and manipulators? What about Machavellianism? Why not mention that it is useless to argue with someone narcissistic? Your advice is that you enter arguments and talking and communicating clearly as possible. But what happens when the other person turns their back and walk away? When they stab you in the back when you said no? When they talk behind your back and set you up to future damage - when all you did was being honest and communicate yourself clearly?
We can't scapegoat people pleasing and ignore sick society in the same time.
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Being so nice is not personal choice. It is based on trauma. Therefore, you cannot stop something by logic or by stopping it - since you have trauma, fears and anxiety that drives you to be too nice. Can you imagine the amount of violence and psychological abuse and verbal abuse someone went through to become pushover?
People who think they owe someone explanation due to toxic shame, that sprung from experiencing abuse. Think about it logically, if people pleasers knew that saying no is the answer - they would say no long time ago. People tell them all their lives. So obviously talking about it does not help. It is because of trauma and toxic shame, which you never mentioned in your video.
Nice people are busy not because to be busy but because they are afraid of severe punishment if they don't. You never mentioned this punishment and threat of punishment at all. What happens if you are surrounded by violent, abusive, narcissistic monsters that will stab you in back if you communicate your needs honestly and tell them no. Some sick people are unable to take no as answer. What happens then, care to explain?
When the topic is people pleasing, the real subject ought to be narcissists and narcissistic abuse that is targeting nice people.
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What you do when you say No, and boss says no to you back? What you do when you say No, and the other person turns their back and walk away? What you do when you say No, and the others stab you in the back and plot how to pull revenge on you, mocking you behind your back because you simply said No - and you have no idea this plot is happening until it is too late?
In short, What you do in toxic environment when saying No is met with hostility and aggression?
Your video is focused on merry happy imaginary fantasy land of Oz where all people are healthy and normal and full of understanding. Thus your advice clash with reality and narcissistic society, exploitative corporations and plain sick people who abuse others.
"Which would you like me to prioritize?" "You say no to one but giving the option to select which one" In reality, one option is selected, but the next day, you will be attacked for not completing it all. That is real world. You will be labelled as lazy, stupid and someone who disregards orders and tasks given.
"Be prepared to say no" What happens when this happens hundreds of times a day? Every day?
"What if they push back, argue" What I seen this is the road to get sacked, or transferred and then sacked. It is said - you can't argue with narcissists. They are masters of gaslighting, smear campaign and guilt tripping.
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(reddit)
Quick glance at search topics, there is no topic about this, it is named as fear of driving or fear related to attaining driving license.
I always thought that driving phobia and social phobia were my caprices, quirks, perks, something unrelated.
I realized that my worst fear in driving is road rage. That I get in situation where someone will attack me. Another fear is getting in situation where I am blocked. Where I cannot go in any direction and the road is too small to turn or do anything.
Surprisingly enough, this is also my social anxiety, too. Fear of hysterical, violent and unkind people - and being stuck in situation that never ends and where I am blocked from all sides - without being able to run away (such as job or party or official gathering of any kind).
One interesting realization was that anything related to social anxiety can be explained through allegory of driving phobia situations.
Such as - when aggressive drivers is behind and he is very close: Tailgating. So I think I am in the way - and I cannot stand driving at the pace I am right now - so I speed in order not to bother this aggressive idiot, to make his life pleasant and nice. But this does not help, since they drive even faster now. In social situations this is in situations where you are suggested or ordered by others to do something - which you are not able or cannot do right away. So you say yes - and then they think you can do anything, so they put even more jobs on top of the current one.
I learned a great tip about Tailgating: drive the same speed - and when the road is clear, start driving slower and slower - the raging lunatic will pass over you.
Driving phobia played a crucial role in my social anxiety, since this was signal for my toxic shame to prove that I am inept and unable to live or manage my life. Also, I learned that in normal and wealthier countries - the roads are far more wider and they have better signalizations, so much of my fears are related to toxic environment created by corruption.
Anyhow, if someone is struggling with driving phobia, these are my discoveries about it: - Slow down. I do not need to join in hysteria. - MP3 FM player - to avoid irritating commercials, annoying music and talk there is gadget where you can plug USB stick and play it like local radio over FM frequency - Practice. Drive often and again. - Bicycle riding was great help for me in order to grasp the road system and others cars speeding and measuring how fast they are approaching. - Self worth - rely on personal resources and my own conclusions, making decisions. - There are worse people out there, self confident but in the same time truly inept and truly incompetent for driving. - Understanding the modern roads are made to make driving easier, not complicated. - Before driving make firm decision to abstain from impatient, nervous jumpy driving.
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(reddit)
This will sound stupid and un-effective, I know, but try to accept yourself as you are. Our toxic shame prevents us from self validating ourselves. I would focus on seeing toxic shame as hallucination. Toxic shame is when you think you must be perfect in life.
For example, "I struggle with sentences, I end my sentences with “or something” or anything along those lines"
So continue doing it, this is your style of communication. With time, you will change it when you learn more and when you have more built up experience. If you try to be perfect now, you'll get in fears and anxieties about your performance.
"I always end up ruining friendships with people." Maybe these people are not worthy enough. With social anxiety we attract toxic people like moth to a flame. They sniff out our deep stimuli process abilities, listening skills and desire to make friendships - and this makes us very attractive to people who resolve their own toxic shame by hurting and exploiting others.
"My social anxiety completely runs my life" You are correct. We must take control. So that we run our social anxiety. Social anxiety has positive characteristics. It helps us be kind, have empathy and it gives us ability to think twice before hurting someone. It becomes detrimental when we start to be afraid of embarrassing ourselves. Then we allow other people to define what is "terrible conversation". We start observe other people as gods and we believe other people hold ultimate truth about anything in life. This is toxic shame, it is actually no longer social anxiety. It only appears as social anxiety to us, since our self worth is exported outside and now it is related to other people.
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" is to leave a toxic work situation"
....and end up in street homeless?
People who have issues with work will be facing these toxic blockages. People who can resolve issues by saying No will not look for help anyways.
Your advice - although intended with good will and good intentions - actually will left them with toxic shame, since they will believe they are inept to deal with sick people around them. As if saying No will be life solver - while in reality it does nothing.
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"How am I supposed to overcome social anxiety if I constantly receive evidence in support of it?" Try trusting your evidence. Examine it. Take it in a "lab" and scientifically evaluate it, seek additional evidence and see how it works when it is in different environment and circumstances.
"I feel like I'm doing all the right things and still getting no acknowledgment" You do the right thing, however expecting and seeking approval is something that is called "external reference locus of control". We trauma bond with other people due to our ingrained toxic shame (belief we are inept and unworthy) and trauma and triggers that resemble the original trauma. So, instead of seeking acknowledgment, I would focus on toxic shame, trauma and triggers. Toxic shame is hallucination, we are worthy just as any other person. Trauma means our body and mind is programmed to seek approval While triggers are people and events that resemble the original trauma (usually it is related to toxic people and people who behave toxically). I would go in that direction and explore what I can find out is going on really.
This would mean: "Guy "Friends" ghosted me after agreeing to hang out" I would not expect someone to be attentive and serving to me. I know I have fun time on my own. Being HSP, we are naturally happy being alone anyways. If guy friend answers - great. If he doesn't - great again. The point is to move on and to do your chores, tasks and dreams.
"A girl crush I had been talking to for a long time ghosted me after agreeing to hang out" It is her right to choose people. She also may have private intimate issues totally un-related to you. You can message her I am here if you need help or talking. If she doesn't reply, I would feel bad, but I know it is important to be happy with yourself first.
"Joined some clubs and nobody talks to me unless I initiate and I quickly turn invisible in these settings" With social anxiety we put too much focus on other people. This is definitely external reference locus of control. Paradox is once you happy with yourself - visible or invisible, you won't mind about their reaction - your actions will not be based on their approval or disapproval. We can't force other people to like us. We cannot control other people.
"my partner removed her name from our google doc without talking to me about it" Did you ask her why? Perhaps she is shy? Or some third reason that is totally unfamiliar to you.
"they made a face and said hi in a tone indicating a question-mark" Their problem. If they react in strange manner that is not appropriate to "normal" communication - you can ignore it. It is indication they are going through stuff of their own, and they forget that they appearing weird to others. Again, if you are nice and kind person, without evil agenda, without any hidden mission to exploit or hurt other people, whatever you do is totally ok and fine. Trauma and toxic shame makes us feel all the time that we are guilty and that we done something terribly wrong. And our Confirmation Bias will do the rest of work - it will seek and find "proofs" about us being wrong and guilty.
We got to become Sherlock Holmes and scientists when we start to feel panic, guilt and social anxiety symptoms. Out anxiety will lie to us. It is a liar. The solution is prescribed by Descartes: doubt everyone and doubt your own brain. You can add to any worry thought adage: "and perhaps there is some other reason. Without investigation and clarification, I do not really know anything". We can know only ourselves, our motives and our goals. "Be just and fear not".
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(reddit)
"The primary fear that something is wrong with us- and therefore others will not like us-is often not fully conscious"
He is describing toxic shame. Funny he did not use this concept to describe it, so that we know what to look for.
I see social anxiety as multidimensional issue.
It is rooted in trauma, it is rooted in our deep stimuli process abilities that society pathologize as "weakness" and "wrong", it is rooted in toxic shame that stems both from trauma and biases society. It is rooted in ego-centrism when we are panicked. It is rooted in extreme empathy, so it is contradicting to ego-centrism. Now toxic shame wrecks havoc with plethora of other social anxiety outlets: poor self esteem, panic symptoms, inferiority complex, external reference locus of control, people pleasing, fawning.
I've read Dr. Aziz - and I observed his videos on YT. He is trying so hard to get to root of social anxiety, however he misses the trauma factor and he completely misses third wave of CBT: acceptance and self validation. He focuses more on Jordan Peterson fantasy based on superiority complex, being afraid of being "weak", and with this pathologizing of ourselves - it will never help us to feel better. Over-compensation methods are not road to well being.
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(17.2.2022)
In job situation you don't have ability to block people. In family situation you cannot remove family members by blocking them when you are under 18. In financial situation you cannot block people around you by relocating if you don't have money to leave.
Telling others that it is your fault for other's narcissistic abuse and "tolerating" it is accusing the victim for the abuse. This is unfair statement, it is detrimental and it doesn't help, blaming the victim for exploitation causes even more pain, suffering and external abuse and consequently self-abuse by feeling toxic shame, all this additional to the existing abuse.
You can show how to be treated at job and get fired - and now unless you live in wealthy country with low unemployment rates, you are homeless and people beating you up in the street because you are bum. You can show untreated mentally ill family members how to treat you - and get beaten up and psychological abuse that will stump your growth and later you develop social anxiety and intrusive worry loops, complex trauma. You can show people how to treat you when you have no money to relocate - and narcissists, mentally ill people will stab you in back, talk behind your back, set up pranks and attacks behind your back, attack you in open, scream at you and keep ongoing narcissistic abuse through severe psychological abuse and potentially physical abuse.
I would focus on other people in this topic. There are mentally ill people who abuse other people - that is the real problem. Not the target.
Psychopaths have different brain than most of people. Perhaps we can as society make legislation that managers, priests, drivers, anyone working with close contact to people, scan their brain - and if they are psychopaths - to be under surveillance and be banned from work in public, certain jobs. That is one aspect how to focus on the external problem here.
Focusing on the target who is victim of abuse is detrimental, it does not help and it adds additional abuse to the present one.
Setting standards is something you cannot do if you have toxic shame. Toxic shame is the after effect of narcissistic abuse, people who take advantage of others. With toxic shame you cannot stand for yourself, since psyche will export your self worth in other people. Now you see everything in your life, your standards through other people. With toxic shame thus it is impossible to have your own standards - they are filtered through other people.
Toxic shame is hallucination. You can remove it by self-validation, so that you make comforting place for your self worth to come back to inside us where it naturally belongs. Once you have self worth, you will have inner standards on your own, it will come up automatically. When you self-validate, accept yourself you will not self-censor yourself when being used and abused.
Again, if you are in toxic environment, especially since childhood, you are set up to toxic shame. If we start to talk about the target in situations when someone takes advantage of you, I would only focus on toxic shame awareness - observe it how it shows up and work on self-acceptance and self-validation, which paradoxically means loving yourself even when you are disgusted by your own labels such as being "weak" for being taken advantage.
Unfortunately you never mentioned toxic shame - and thus you blame the individuals for the abusive situations that they did not choose in the first place to be in with.
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Yeah I agree it is important. It is essential part of mental instabilities such as anxieties and depression.
but I see Confirmation Bias that is preventing this process. Ego.centrism doesn't help either. I would focus also on Selection bias and similar narrow minded biases that keeps us in tunnel. Life keeps on throwing up choices that we must make, based on little knowledge or little experience about ongoing situations that must be solved quickly - I see this as another element why it is hard to step outside of box. Whereas if we get use to uncomfortable we would be able to come up with better solutions, the same one that keeps us trapped in tunnel vision.
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(reddit)
It is extremely hard to grasp this concept of self validation because we were hypnotized and programmed into the polar opposite: to invalidate ourselves.
Now, this self-acceptance and loving yourself sounds literally like sci-fi. We are not able to realize what love really is, since we never truly experienced it. Yeah, we seen it on TV and in fiction, other people talked about it, but to us it is foreign, artificial entity and actually unexplored territory. I would encourage you to explore it.
2 years ago I stumbled upon one video where one man with schizophrenia is talking about his experiences in life and how others treat him. And he was asked this question: "Does it make a difference just knowing somebody cares?" And he replied: "It makes a world of difference." and he started to sob quietly.
That reply blew my mind. With social anxiety we don't care about people from this love and caring and validation aspect. We are afraid of people, we come from the place of fear and expecting the abuse from them. There is no love. We may fawn and be subservient in order that they do not hurt us in return, to avoid their wrath and abuse - but this is not love. It may appear as love to third party, but serving and people pleasing others is not love, doing things for them in order to exchange their good manners and avoid criticism is not love.
Then we repeat this process inside ourselves. We don't actually love ourselves, either. We serve and obey commands to our panic. We do anything in our power to avoid feeling panic and anxiety and fears and worry. This is not love. We don't come from the place of love towards ourselves. We try to people please our emotions - and thus we let our emotions to control us. The same as people - we allow other people to control us by their emotions, reactions and their criticism. (due to toxic shame and external locus of control).
I see self acceptance, self validation and self-love as the correct way not only for social anxiety but for anything in life, it is the correct path to mental stability and well being. It is paradoxical and it will be life changing, it will change the way how we think and what we do - for the better. We will create better life choices and we will start to avoid toxic environment, toxic people and toxic actions - that we can't right now because we are trauma bonded with pain.
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(reddit)
All people have social anxiety. All.
" most employers see anxiety as a red flag and a liability,"
On the other hand, employers will love to get codependent person (and with anxiety we all have codependency issues) as amazing resource to exploit. He will never say no. He will never insult the boss or manager. He will never cause riot. He will always stay quiet and do his job. He will try to over-compensate and seek approval - thus accumulate jobs and tasks onto him without any criticism. I doubt that employer would not hire someone who is trustworthy and who is able to see any issue from multiple dimensions and angles (which may include feeling anxiety as after effect of this super ability)
Also, employer would hate hiring opiniated person, someone who complains all the time, without taking time to consider the other party. Employer would hardly get any profit with person who is unable to communicate unless screaming and throwing temper tantrums. Customers will avoid this person. And employer would not like to hire someone how takes frequent breaks - coffee breaks with the guys and to hire someone who spends his time talking with others and gossiping all day long. Just imagine how would anyone like to be bothered about paycheck rise or benefits and or openly requiring special treatment all the time. I doubt that employer would hire someone to be afraid of and someone who is ego-centric.
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(reddit)
Everyone suffers from it, but most of people 1) never diagnosed themselves so they never detected it, and 2) they found methods, routines and directions in life to keep social anxiety issues under the control.
This is why their advice sucks: - when they tell us that we are over-sensitive, - that we are weak, that we should get over it, - that we are over-imagining it, - that it is not true what we are thinking, - that we should be "strong"
Don't listen to them. (I know, it is hard not to listen due to toxic shame and external locus mechanisms).
People "without social anxiety" do feel social anxiety, too. Perhaps even more than you do! However, their methods are totally different since they never medically examined their own emotions.
The curse of psychology is that you are put in laboratory environment, and you are made into "lunatic" for having emotions and feelings. This quickly turns into toxic shame, because your psyche explain this as: 1) I am defective and inept 2) other people do not have these medical traits, so they are super normal and superior to us.
The purpose of psychology and mental health is that we realize we have capacity to trust ourselves, that we are able to make decisions on our own, without seeking approval and validation from others and that we are ok with being mistaken, wrong and embarrassed. The purpose of psychology is not that it pathologizes our honest panic reactions to trauma and problems in life. If we are not violent, and if we are not unkind to others - we are perfectly normal and healthy and functional human being. There is nothing to fix in our soul. Problem are panic attacks and fears and anxiety - which are implanted by external factor. The abuse is issue, not our reactions and triggers to abuse. Our socially anxious panic reactions of dread and imminent danger are totally normal reaction to abnormal people, abnormal events and abnormal situations. Our cognitive distortions and immature ego defense mechanisms are learned reactions from our childhood, as kids we developed these in order to survive psychological abuse and being exposed to untreated mentally ill people around us, people who were incapable of love. Child brain cannot think like adult when being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and being exposed to adult hysteria. Child brain will protect itself by taking on the blame and guilt in order to sooth the aggression and assaults from abusive environment. Toxic shame is the wound, stemming out of this exposure to constant and relentless maltreatment and total absence of love (aka mental health).
From our anxious perspective, especially with panic, we get so ego-centric (tunnel vision, observing life from one angle) that our brain is hijacked into panic mode - that we are unable to see outside world clearly. It is as if transparent black veil is over our face or seeing everything through the gaze or in fog. We get so panicked that we do not notice other people - who may go through difficult moments and we are unable to offer them help. We will help, serve and obey angry and abusive people in order to calm them down. We will thus attract toxic people in our lives who love needy and afraid people willing to serve and obey their masters. Social anxiety will protect us from toxicity by avoiding people and through isolation and withdrawal. If Classical CBT succeeds to remove panic symptoms - we will become people pleasers and pushovers and fawn to others. In this way, Social anxiety will still be ever present, even when being social. While Classical CBT will conclude that you are "ok" now, since you are socializing. People pleasing and fawning is a form of avoiding. You are not truly present with others, you are still very much afraid of them.
When we combine purpose of psychology and this veil over our face mixed in together we get interesting results about all people - that they too have social anxiety. Social anxiety is being sensitive enough to care about other people and be aware of others, in order to perceive other people. It becomes disorder when we start feeling inhibitions and when it stops us from living and "being out there":
So, when others tell us: - when they tell us that we are over-sensitive: actually they are extremely oversensitive themselves. However in their childhood they learned to put on mask and to pretend to be tough. Thus people who say this are fake. They lie to us. And we believe them, we think they are superior and tough - and this is exactly the purpose of this "advice". You look up to them and they control your decisions now. This is how they resolved their social anxiety in childhood, by being narcissist and mocking others, being superior to others.
When they tell us: - that we are weak, that we should get over it: Again, they have this issue themselves, buried deep inside. It is narcissistic injury, and they learned in childhood if they label others as "weak" and that other people emotions are not valid, they notices that some people (who are kind, open, friendly) react to these words. So with this "advice" they have deep social anxiety wound inside and they cover it up by pretending to be strong and superior over you. You will try to please them and to be strong, but since all people are on par, and equal, this trial of ours to achieve their upper superior level will never happen.
When they tell us: - that we are over-imagining it: It only means that they solved their social anxiety by immature ego defense mechanisms, such as: Dissociation. temporary drastic change in behavior. . Denial. avoidance of awareness of some painful reality. Displacement. taking feelings out on a neutral 3rd party. Isolation of Affect: Avoiding the experience of an emotion associated with a person, idea, or situation. From our perspective, it will seem as if they are gods, since they have this fantastic magic cure against social anxiety and panic. And that is exact purpose of this "advice" - that they feel superior to you. You have no idea from being afraid and amygdala hijacking - that you are now trauma bonded with narcissist and manipulator. From your perspective this person is "helping you" and this person appears "kind" and "nice". However all they do is they deal with their own social anxiety, toxic shame by pontification and ignoring other people to evoke toxic shame in others. When they do this, they make you into slave, someone who is silent to their future criticism and unfair treatment, since you know that you only "imagine" their gaslighting and cheap advice that only serves them.
When we get advice such as: - that it is not true what we are thinking, This is actually gaslighting. Our hunches are correct. If we feel anxiety about someone, it is most probably correct. The trick is to prepare yourself for evil, for quick conflict and to doubt anything this person who emits aura of uncomfortable feelings. Again, person who denies others will extreme social anxiety all their lives, but they learned in their abusive childhood to deal with anxiety by hurting other people through telling lies and smear campaign. Since their narcissistic injury is not being able to accept themselves as fragile person, they project this onto others, too. Out of sight, out of mind. From our social anxiety perspective, these people who give such advice will appear as better, more competent, while in the same time - we are inept and unable to trust our own instinct and intuition and common sense. And this is exactly the purpose of this "helpful" advice - invalidation and negation of our inner self, so that toxic shame takes root. As I said many times - with toxic shame inside us, psyche will export our self worth into other people. And as learned in trauma years - we will serve and be subservient to other people. And this is the goal of this advice. That you obey and serve the messenger as some kind of god entity. If you doubt them, if you criticize them and inspect their actions or moods, they will deny it and blame you for being anxious and paranoid. We are dealing with person with social anxiety too, but this person willingly chosen to engage into Dark psychology of manipulation and exploitation of others in order to control their own social anxiety wounds.
And when someone "strong" and never socially anxious give us this "advice" for our own social anxiety; - that we should be "strong" It will appear as if this person is strong and incapable of having social anxiety. But this superiority complex is part of inferiority complex. They have deep social anxiety, however they learned very early on - to deal with social anxiety you put on a mask. You build a false persona, a character and you play it. These people are extremely fragile - and they will throw temper tantrums and become even dangerous when you judge and criticize them. As we all know, basic trait of social anxiety is inability to handle criticism - but from our anxiety perspective we will explain their inability to handle criticism as them being "strong". Their rudeness and arrogance will seem as socially accepted way of treating other people. Since they are not afraid of hurting others, they appear as not being afraid to express their narcissistic rage emotions, they will appear to us as "healthy" because they appear to express themselves and they do it in social situations without any inhibitions. In reality, they suffer from deep social anxiety - they simply choose to deal with it by pretending they don't have it.
And other people- all these people who appear as "extroverts" and socially engaging and open without putting other people down - you will say there is no way that they can feel social anxiety. They do.
In their childhood they never experienced abuse so they developed functional ways to deal with their perceptions of danger and their explanations what is threatening in social situations. They will get angry and misunderstood others. We will interpret this as them being strong and socially accepted angry, but this is actually only reaction to their social anxiety. They will appear as socially outgoing, looking like super model, taking instagram selfies - this is all socially anxious based, however they learned to deal with these feelings of social anxiety by play pretend and to gain other admiration, seeking approval from others. As we all know, this seeking validation from others is at the core of social anxiety.
As I said, with panic we become ego-centric and we never break through to the other side, to see what is life like when you let go of learned mechanisms, all methods and routines we learned in our abusive childhood how to deal with social anxiety. So even when we test being socially "confident" we will soon encounter some "advice" and due to toxic shame and external locus, we will see other people as gods. This is false mechanism we developed as kids to deal with social anxiety, and we will feel irrational guilt, enforced by chemicals and hormones that will affect our thinking process, we learned helplessness like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals - not because of our choice, but because it was implanted onto us by untreated mentally ill people in our toxic environment.
So I would try to look at social anxiety as something normal and accept ourselves, self validate our emotions and reactions. We simply have to find methods and routines that work better than the current ones we are passing on from year to year since our childhood. The best methods are the simplest one - and that is method of self acceptance and self validation.
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(reddit)
"they don't realize how terrifying this is for students with social anxiety"
They do realize it very well.
Some of them want you to "get over" social anxiety, just as they solved it though exposure, so they will force this. They never went through trauma so their ego-centrism is preventing them to realize how much pain their orders create in other people. They think it will be piece of cake only when you break the ice, just as they solved their social anxiety when they grew up in their loving and functional homes and grew up with loving and accepting environment.
And regarding those who tell socially anxious people they are shy and to get over it: They simply do not care. They do have social anxiety themselves, however they learned to deal with it by ignoring it, and through attacking others and not caring how others feel. They do not want to get better, they do not want to be good, kind nor nice, since this would make them feel their own social anxiety. And their narcissistic tool of hurting and negating other people works perfectly. They noticed that most people (people who are silent, kind, friendly, open, healthy) will shut up to them and that no one will object them. Similar to Stanford Prison Experiment. This is called narcissism.
Social anxiety is connected with the abuse and abusive people. Our panic symptoms are reaction to Dark Triad and Dark psychology. Our social anxiety is totally normal reaction to abnormal people, abnormal situations and abnormal events.
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They do. They put on a mask and pretend do be socially confident.
Just as you do now, truly socially anxious person would never accuse other to be liar, it would be too risky. You put on façade of superiority complex (where you as superior being hold the ultimate truth, and opposing "weak" opinion is lie) and it helps you to deal with your social anxiety. Just as I explained in my post.
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"I’d have to disagree. I know soooo mane people who don’t have an ounce of anxiety. And never have"
But how do you know that for certain?
People with superiority complex will over-compensate. Someone who is acting without anxiety is clear proof of over-compensation and narcissism. Look them again. Study them more closely. They act. They have mask on. They are not authentic. Just look at them from this perspective, as they are actors. Make pretend, and then we will feel toxic shame for not being "confident" enough like them.
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> I don't think they actually had social anxiety
If we put them in psychiatry institute, we would dig it up. They done this with anti-psychiatry movement in 1960s. They made experiment - they put totally "normal" and "healthy" people in mental institution - and soon they almost stayed there permanently because "experts" have found many issues with them.
"I don't think they ACTUALLY realize how scary it is for people with social anxiety. They think they do," As I said - we can divide people who appear non socially anxious in two groups: 1) those who grew up in loving homes and healthy environment 2) those who grew up with abuse. They both experienced social anxiety however their interpretations, perceptions and explanations and definitions are construed from non socially anxious terminology. So they never identify social anxiety to begin with. To them it is being "shy". So the first group got rid of being "shy" by exposure. They found self worth by being themselves and accepting their mistakes and embarrassing moments as normal and daily part of social life. The second group got rid of being "shy" by being rude to other people. Instead of self worth they created false persona and they put on a mask. They both find their own solutions to being "shy". So when they encounter people struggling with social anxiety (meaning people who did not find self worth and instead have toxic shame) - these two groups will react and explain it as "get over it" and "you are shy" - because this is their own method that helped them to get over social anxiety which they perceived as being "shy".
"Also I disagree that it's connected to abuse." Ok, I made separate topic about this, this is not the topic here. If you do not agree with it, and if you think that social anxiety is fear of future - see if you can do something with this conclusion. Does it help you? Do you feel less anxious now that you found the route cause of social anxiety? Be practical. Does it help? Are you less socially anxious? Do you feel less panic? Are you more socially engaged in relation to what you want to be socially active?
I see that our anxiety will lie to us. It will give us false explanations and false perceptions, confirmation bias will do the rest of the job confirming it.
I see social anxiety as part of Complex trauma. If we are afraid manically about what other people will think about us, and if we are hysterically afraid of criticism - there had to be some kind of blow, trauma in the past to cause this. This deep unprocessed fear of criticism is not fear of future.
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"there could be more awareness out there regarding social anxiety. "
Of course, that would be marvelous. But reality is - at this moment this is not reality. So what can we do? Daydreaming about how other people should act? Try to control other people?
These do not work. Never will work.
If your job is to make presentation - your chore is to make presentation, like it or not. Wishful thinking how other people must behave and act is anxiety itself. I would rather focus on understanding that social anxiety is related to society - thus its got its name. I would work in the process of giving back the anxiety to society where it belongs.
This means, with social anxiety we are afraid of criticism. So criticize them back. With social anxiety we are afraid to move. So move in spite. With social anxiety we have panic and fears. So accept them and focus on the job: presentation in this case. With shaky voice, with racing heart, with negative thoughts - all in the package, my job is not my symptoms. My job is to make presentation - coupled with my anxiety and embarrassment. I would work on this mentality rather than wishful thinking how other people should behave.
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> there is nothing wrong with acknowledging that social anxiety is real
Actually there is problem with this. This is called External reference locus of control.
We seek external validation and external approval. That is social anxiety itself. This happens due to toxic shame. Toxic shame is by-product of abuse (being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when growing up and being exposed to adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process it in any other way than internalizing toxic shame and developing immature ego defense mechanisms to protect itself from further maltreatment). Toxic shame will export our self worth into other people. This is external locus of control- we trauma bond with others because our self worth is in other people. Now, we expect that other people take care of us - that they validate us, that they respect us, that they care about us, that they are sensitive to us and our needs - just as we are caring and sensitive to others through people pleasing and fawning. This is trauma bonding, Stockholm Syndrome and it is at the heart of social anxiety. It all happens unconscious and we are totally unaware of this process.
So expecting others to be kind and concerned about us is external locus of control- caused by our toxic shame internalized inside us,
The only solution is self acceptance and self validation, as I said, in other comments here.
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(reddit)
> one teacher who really understood me... but the others... ugh.
Objectively speaking, how reasonable is to expect teachers and society to understand social anxiety, when most loud and vocal participants here do not want to understand it? We see that posts about complaints and nagging get a lot of like buttons, while posts about practical solutions to social anxiety are not read or visited. So if socially anxious person is not dedicated to gave up 10 minutes of its time to learn and understand social anxiety - how logically we can expect from society to learn and read about social anxiety themselves?
The original poster said that social anxiety is "fear of future". So the original poster does not understand what social anxiety is. Fear of future is anticipatory anxiety, it is GAD; it is not social anxiety. "Social" means fear from society, it is not connected or related to future as time phenomena.
And this person expect that teacher devote their time to learn social anxiety, while original poster never ever read a single medical book about social anxiety.
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(reddit)
As I said, we can divide people "without" social anxiety in two groups: 1) people who grew up in healthy loving environment and they learned techniques and methods and replies and defenses how to deal with social interactions going awry in manner that does not produce mental distress to them. They learned this very early on in childhood, so now as adults their social anxiety levels are very low. But as we seen in Stanford Prison Experiment, or in any violent and dangerous social situation - they will exhibit socially anxious symptoms. and 2) people who were abused in childhood but they learned to follow their abusers - so they decided to build false persona, they put on a mask and they play a character their whole life. To us, they appear extremely confident, "strong", arrogant, cruel and if we let them inside our life, we will find out they are very abusive and prone to narcissistic injury. The both groups will appear as if the don't give a f*ck to third party, observers who see them. While we don't know what is going on in their heads nor we know how they process their conflicts and realities.
"some people have anxiety and some people don’t" Put those people who don't have anxiety in dangerous situations and observe what will happen. They will exhibit anxiety.
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(reddit)
> everyone has social anxiety to an extent
I opened topic about this today and explained it in great detail.
"whether they were abused or not." This is another issue. Abuse does not mean necessarily physical abuse or having drug environment or being poor or anything we see on tv fiction. Abuse is neglect, it is also having shelter and money, but no appreciation and no role model to show us what is love and acceptance and cooperation. It is being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and being exposed to adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process it other than internalizing toxic shame and developing plethora of immature ego defense mechanisms.
Social anxiety is part of Complex Trauma. There has to be social element in it. We are afraid of people - this is definitely clue that "time" or "future" is not our problem. Other people are our problem. Some kind of trauma happened early on. Being HSP is genetic, it is not disorder. Society can label our natural and normal persona as pathology - and this is abuse. When we get labelled , with toxic shame inside us, we believe other people whatever they say - and we will believe them. We will fulfill the prophecy of label. Then we will develop additional anxieties on top of the original one.
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(reddit)
> How ever this is absolutely connected to abuse but whatever that's not the point.
I think this is very much connected to the point. How can you heal something if you keep it in dark? How can you expect not to hurt yourself when walking in dark room and keep on stumbling on objects, that you do not know what these objects are?
Calling other people unknown time suggest me wrong perceptions, wrong definitions - and this tells me that original poster never explored social anxiety - while in the same time he or she demands the same exploration from teachers and society. That is not logical.
"Teachers get paid to know children's psychology." What we know is that Classical CBT was based on all people except on people with social anxiety. Therefore, conclusions in psychology are based on people who never had social anxiety. And this is exactly what you get in education department. The whole system is based on false fake and wrong conclusions about psychology related to social anxiety.
"Anyone else can choose to avoid the truth." You are totally correct, but it is then draining and waste of time to complain and nag about something you are not willing to choose to study yourself, while in the same time you expect teachers to study something - that is not enough researched to begin with.
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"Wake up to the sound of a positive mindset." There is a term called Toxic Positivity.
Abuse and exposure to narcissistic abuse, psychological abuse, someone's yelling and screaming triggers brain into amygdala hijacking. In this state you are unable to have positive mindset, since your brain is not operating from the cortex.
Labeling such people as choosing to be a victim is blaming the target for the abuse. Very toxic attitude and it is part of narcissism.
Modern psychology recognized DBT and Humanistic Psychology as the correct way to deal with abusive situations. Abusing the target is detrimental.
If people are able to change themselves at the press of the button - we would already press that magical fantasy button long time ago.
Think about it more logically. If processing abuse is so easily and ready at your disposal, there would be no psychology no psychological treatment.
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I am personally shocked how much it is not talked about toxic shame - as if it is taboo. Nobody mentions it! While at the root of all mental instabilities - it is the toxic shame. It is the motor that is producing bad decisions in life, yet nobody pinpoints at it, no one mentions it for example in videos about people pleasing or inability to say No at work or in society in general.
I learned that toxic shame is hallucination, it is delusion: belief that I am inept and unworthy. That is not true. Toxic shame tells me that I distrust my opinion, my experience, my mistakes and my flaws - and I am as result crippled with anxiety and social phobia - afraid to take any action in life for the fear of being embarrassed and exposed as wrong. I realized I feel much more confident and better when I am aware of this toxic shame and when I recognize it in my thoughts when it tries to govern my decisions, perceptions and explanations.
Very important topic to discuss.
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(reddit)
"I tried boxed breathing, belly breathing, guided meditation videos, subliminal videos" Yep, it does not work. Never helped me. It made me even more anxious because now I signal my brain that there is danger. Anxiety that we feel is trauma. It is not pathology. It is totally normal reaction to abnormal situation, abnormal people and abnormal events. It is not choice. It is not something you can stop at the press of button - otherwise all would do breathing and no one would have social anxiety. Also, if we react to anxiety with rituals, it creates additional mental problems such as PureOCD and OCD (performing certain ritual to calm down). Think of it as if crying. Something sad happens, it is normal to cry. It would be unhealthy to suppress it. The panic symptoms are reaction to triggers similar to original trauma. Don't stop them. Accept them. You do this by not fighting them. Try it out. See what happens when you do not fight them anymore. Don't ignore them. Simply shift to task and chore at hand - it may even be reading some text. Not as distraction , it is more like really doing this task and you focus on task. See if this helps instead of breathing stuff.
"SSRIs" Never helped me. I hate drugs from the bottom of my heart.
"that my anxiety was getting worse" Do you know the saying that it becomes worse before it gets better? The night is always the most dark right before the dawn?
"becoming more forgetful," This is called amygdala hijacking. When we are aroused, when we are afraid, when we experience panic - we are not aware, but there is a shift inside our brain happening. The brain is divided in cortex part and amygdala part. Cortex part is when your "normal" mode - when you are relaxed and you can think without problems, you feel fine and you can find solutions quite easily, even when they are wrong, you can think up of something. Amygdala is our basic brain, when we are afraid, it gets activated, while cortex brain is offline. This means - we will forget. Cortex brain is not working. There is no room for memory. Think about amygdala hijacking as plane hijacking - you are no longer in charge of the plane, our panic and basic thinking is at charge now. Think about amygdala hijacking as Windows Safe mode - where computer graphics is not working and you cannot run 90 percent of installed software programs. There is simply no room for them to run. This happens automatically. This is the reason why Classical CBT force breathing techniques and meditations. The purpose of these exercises is to get you back into "normal" mode, into Cortex part of brain. The problem with social anxiety is that it is actually not social anxiety at all. It is Complex trauma. We are being triggered and dysregulated emotionally by events, situations and people similar to our original trauma.
"I started avoiding eye contact because the other person becomes uncomfortable" We'll get to this part later, I will also go through your original post later on. For now, as quick fix - try this: accept it. Accept that you avoid eye contact. Do not try to correct yourself. Accept it. It is part of trauma response to abuse in the past that your brain perceived now in the present time. If you try to change it, you are repeating the trauma abuse by not allowing yourself to process it.
"Panic symptoms and avoidance." The same thing. Think about ways how to accept them. Do not fight them anymore. Allow yourself to feel it. It will be extremely uncomfortable and irritating and painful. Do not perform any defense mechanisms you tried until now - and they didn't work anyways.
See how this accepting plays out tomorrow.
Do you have any questions about this? Something unclear?
Please, if you could share - did you ever read any book about Social anxiety? Did you study it and try to understand it - there is available free information from medical resources online. Also, if you have money, try to buy books about social anxiety - if you did not until now. If you read any book, can you share what you learned about social anxiety?
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(reddit)
> I'll share the name tomorro
Ok, as I understand you never read actual book about Social anxiety? So, this is your next assignment. Start reading, sorry, it is boring and grueling part, but our social anxiety is being stuck in cave. Now we have to get us out by learning how to navigate cave system. We have to become engineers, divers, scientists and motivators all in one. Search for social anxiety book - try to find official medical resource, not self-help guru books. Avoid Jordan Peterson. Learn what is social anxiety from medical side. What are traits, symptoms and what are the causes. Start with that.
I have read cca 50 books about social anxiety, cca 200 about psychology. We need to become experts at this and it will take away our free time, but it is worth it. When you don't know what you are dealing it, it is like being in dark room and you keep on bumping on the objects in it. Observe learning and knowledge as light. You will not get healthy immediately - you will simply light up the dark room and see what is in there.
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(18.2.2022)
reddit
"accountability buddy"
This is part of social anxiety. You see me as coach. You do not perceive other people on par. As if you have some inferiority, while I am superior over you. You are not inferior. You have after-affects of abuse and they show up as social anxiety. There is nothing wrong with you. You have panic and anxiety, this is not you as person, that does not define you or it does not put you in degrading position.
I would like to share social anxiety information and tips with you, and we can both comment it, as if we are in lab. Think of me as your colleague, fellow scientist and we are working in Social Anxiety Research.
If you find something interesting in our lab, you can take it and try it out in real life, at the job etc. See and test if it works. If it doesn't work, we'll try to investigate what is wrong.
Have you find some Social Anxiety books?
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Bradshaw said: "Shame is the emotion which gives us permission to be human." "Toxic shame gives you a sense of worthlessness, a sense of failing and falling short as a human being." "This deep internalized shame gives rise to distorted thinking."
I find this to be true. The funny thing with toxic shame is that it is hard to grasp it, it is slick. You cannot pinpoint it exactly. As if it is some entity with life of its own, evil spirit that has ability to mask and change.
I see toxic shame as the base motor of social anxiety symptoms and distorted thinking related to other people. For example, when I am afraid, when I perceive other people laughing at me, or bluntly mocking me, I feel it very personal, as if they are cutting me open and pick on my internal organs, it is very painful and scary. What I do not see is that I have toxic shame. I believe I am inept and unworthy, stupid - and their criticism is the definite proof of this deep core belief. So I give up my choices, my opinions and I shut up and self censor. Now this passivity makes it additional toxic shame feelings - now I have additional proofs that I am "weak" and inept, stupid and weird. That is toxic shame.
With Complex trauma I learned that toxic shame is direct product of being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7, constant nagging, being exposed to adult hysteria when I made mistakes, and child brain is unable to process it in any other way but through internalizing toxic shame. And without being aware, toxic shame is inside me. Psyche tries to salvage my self worth by exporting it onto other people to survive. If the psyche did not do that, I would become narcissists: I would create false self, I would destroy my self worth. So I would wear a mask - and thus I would solve social anxiety and interpersonal issues: by belittling others, by holding on to resentment, by accusing others for anything, by being hysterical as I experienced it on myself when growing up and totally without empathy. Now I no longer have social anxiety - I would feel anxiety in social situations when someone would expose me as fake, that is narcissistic injury and narcissistic collapse. So destroying self worth is wrong way to go. It is dangerous and it is anti-social.
When my self worth is in other people, this is called External reference locus of control. Now I trauma bond with other people and every criticism from other people hurts me very deeply - since their arguments attack me on two levels: they attack my toxic shame inside me, and they attack my self worth which is located in other people - I take side with the accusations like Stockholm Syndrome and thus I will never be able to doubt other person and bring into the question that they might be the problem.
So in social situations I would end up as people pleaser, pushover, trying to avoid other people's anger and their negative emotions by not making them angry - by being complacent and going along with their abuse. This attitude will attract bullies and toxic people, and inadvertently instead of making peace with people I attract wars and explosion - by my honest wish to have peace on Earth and not expressing my own opinions. This is result of abuse: I see expressing my thoughts as explosion and war declaration. That is toxic shame.
I learned that third wave of CBT found out solution to this complex horror. They discovered that through DBT and Humanistic Psychology I can accept myself, self-validate and self-accept anything about me. Including my mistakes and flaws - and especially panic symptoms.
With toxic shame I would smile back to people who are abusive and accusing me of totally untrue things. I would shut up and I would self-censor my defenses and words of defense in order not to make them even more mad. I thought this is making peace.
With toxic shame (and self worth being exported outside of me) I would think that other person has power to make me feel triggered. They don't. Other people do not have this power. Other people don't have power to make me feel anything. With toxic shame I believe that they do.
My negative reaction, trigger, flashback - which are all related to other people negative and hostile reactions - are all coming from inside me. But toxic shame prevents me to see and realize this. Toxic shame (and anxiety) lies to me.
I realized this is because of self worth being exported outside of me. With this phenomena, I believe that other people hold the ultimate judgement and power and truth about me any anything on the planet and in the whole universe. With Descartes Dubito ergo cogito ergo sum, I learned that I am allowed to doubt anything and everything - including my own thoughts. This does not mean reject or distrust - but only put and add doubt in it. I find this allowance to doubt as extremely relief to panic symptoms and panic in general.
Toxic shame makes me feel inferior. I am no longer on par with other people. And I see this as basis to feeling anxious in social situations. Because I see myself as unworthy, while other people are important and I must not warn them and alert them when they cross common sense and boundaries of good taste. So - I can be on par. My opinion does matter. And I do not need to engage in resentment and explosions and wars to express contrary opinion.
I also realized that the level of knowledge and information inside me is collected in Super-ego. And with toxic shame I am not allowed to access this inner internet library database. Instead toxic shame censors the information and provides false and thwarted information instead. Similar to USSR media propaganda. So - doubting myself is healthy. I can be wrong. Other people can be wrong. Our confirmation bias will prevent us for seeing true reality. And we are not gods, so we are human beings, allowed to make honest mistakes and being imperfect. If I am not violent and unkind, there is no reason to feel shame for any mistake.
Also I learned IQ level and HSP sensitivity is connected to toxic shame - if I self censor myself I do not explain myself - and I self abuse my own intelligence into silence. I also do this to my ability to process deep stimuli - which society will label as "over thinking" and being "shy" - so with toxic shame I will believe society false and wrong labels - and I will feel additional shame and anxiety.
I see being honest and authentic as a way to reclaim self worth back inside me, having internal locus of control. Without hiding, bringing out inner super-ego inside archive inner library information out in the open and share it with the world.
I also noticed with self acceptance I am able to take care of myself, I can produce my own advice - I can be fine with being imperfect and making mistakes. And I cannot longer tolerate abuse from others when they clearly do not communicate with respect but only through explosions and drama - which are familiar and known to me from abuse in past. Now I can block them out, minimize contact, plan to relocate if needed.
Toxic shame is like being possessed with evil spirit. I see health as having immunity from this entity and it is in a form of being ok with yourself in all aspects. When I am on par with other people - I do not see others as inferior nor superior - so there is no need for wars and explosions and resentment, only interdependence. Or parting away if there is no mutual respect.
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I agree. But I try to understand why they do this. (in fact I always try to understand something I found weird and unfair to see it from its side, what are true motivations for something that is odd and unacceptable)
What I see is that psychiatrist are unable to grasp the problem. It is not their fault, this grasping process is extremely difficult because people are not truly honest with them, and most people are not even aware of issues to mention them at all in the first place - so the psychiatrist are not getting all necessary and important information.
Even in case when you are open and friendly and honest with them - there is Confirmation bias inside us that prevents us to be exposed and vulnerable. That is why I say your videos are very healthy. What you do is you show you love yourself and you validate yourself as you are. You show that you are honest with yourself and that you accept yourself. Many people do not have this ability. Instead they have toxic shame - thinking there is something to hide.
In my case, I never said my psychiatrist that I am afraid of everything in life. Everything. Not only people. Everything. I was too ashamed to admit it. I felt toxic shame - and of course, she would focus only on things I said to her - and medicine do this thing to influence all the stuff that I shut up and never disclosed open to begin with. I also dislike medicine and I am pro-natural. I want to be honest and authentic. I know I am not evil person, I have no evil agenda, I do not enjoy in hurting or causing pain to others - so basically there is absolutely nothing to hide or feel ashamed about. There is no room for guilt that I done something wrong - since I am incapable to do anything guilty. With toxic shame I feel guilt for being myself. My existence is guilt. This is what they try to fix with medicine. That you accept and self-validate yourself.
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Totally agree. But honestly I think most parents are actually kids, trapped inside grown up bodies. And then making kids decisions in their kid life masquerading as adults. So, They make kids to satisfy status in society to feel approved by society, or / and to pass guilt shame and negative emotions onto kids as objects of their drama, making them into their slaves through "care" and "education" and "good advice".
I don't think we can totally blame them for being kids trapped in adult bodies. This is what they learned from sick instagram insta-feelgood society and their own parents.
But in the end, it is about us to become adults, since our parents were not able to do that. This means, being parent to myself, taking care for myself and nurturing myself, choosing better and healthier choices in life.
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Totally true - being totally honest, blunt and transparent. Voice out the elephant in the room - without explosions and wars.
However, This does not work in all situations which are related, connected and intertwined with Maslow needs. Such as: job, finance, shelter, service, help.
Let's say you need some paper or service of help - and you can get this crucial thing only from one person. And this person is very rude, aggressive, and non-co operable unless you fawn and shut up. So you can attack and do everything within the law - but your actions will destroy the chance of receiving this paper of service or help.
This is what happens in trauma with kids trapped with hysterical and mentally ill environment. You cannot escape - you cannot influence the attacker. You can either go along or become abuser yourself. With go along you save your soul and later as adult you can reclaim your independence and become healthy individual without toxic shame. However if you decide to become narcissists and abuser and respond to aggression any interpretation as attack - you will destroy many potential friendships and soon you will become parasite - farming the quiet and nice people as resource for your emotional support.
I would define "aggression" and "attack" as - being honest, being authentic, speaking the truth without explosions and without wars. Truth may seem like lame weak and sissy - but in reality - speaking the truth is very dangerous and deep and extremely aggressive. just look at Socrates - it cost him life.
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Excellent description, thanks. However I find identifying process extremely hard and challenging. Some people appear like friends, they offer advice and they ask for advice - but never take one. They ask intimate questions but throw drama and explosions in random order. I learned this type of half baked narcissists are called borderliners, but they do the same damage as narcissists and they fit the description you listed here. They both use empathy as agenda, show care when they have personal advantage of showing sympathy and acting wounded.
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I am starting to realize that our own toxic shame attracts them. We are not guilty for having toxic shame - it was implanted onto us by narcissists in the first place. Now we are like flower attracting bullies and mentally ill people into our life, they sniff our friendly, nice, open and quiet people. I see toxic shame as mechanism that needs to be recognized as hallucination so that we get our self worth back where it belongs . inside us. This self worth inside us will be natural repellent to narcissists. Without toxic shame we will be able to be transparent, honest, authentic and voice out the elephant in the room. They hate this and they find it irritating.. thus they will flee on their own.
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> which leads to loss of personality
Yep. Even more than that - there is no personality at all to start with.
Your personality is your self worth. Toxic shame makes no room for self worth, so self worth is expelled and projected into other people in order to survive (being good, kind, diplomatic, making peace and having relationships with others). This is why we people please - in serving others we serve ourselves. We become slave to others to be slave to validation and appreciation to our self worth, which is not located inside ourselves. It is located inside other people, scattered around in other people. Since there a lot of people, this means a lot of different opinions - so very soon we find difficult to people please others and we start to avoid people and feel anxiety related to people, since they always want and need and demand something that is in contradiction among themselves. It is impossible to people please people. Too many preferences, too many demands, too many variables to please.
The alternative is that you destroy self worth inside you - and now you must create false personality. Being fake means you are in danger of discovery - and this leads to being defensive, irritable easily, getting angry easily, very soon this turns into chronic resentment, pouting and sarcasm and outright aggression and violence toward other people - especially those who pick their personal life. This is road to destruction of common sense and anything decent and normal, it is creating chaos and destruction. But it achieved its goal - there is no anxiety from people. There is still pain present, but that pain can only be soothed by aggression and resentment. It is cycle of self-abuse and abuse of others and it leads to anti-social effects.
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(reddit)
> We live in a world that more often than not rewards extroversion and belittles introverts.
Spot on! It is almost as if we are aliens that came from different planet system, with different mentality and different customs and we landed on this planet - and we are forced to adapt to it. Similar to the plot of sit-com "3rd rock from the Sun".
And the only difference is that we are not aware that we are "aliens" here, we have to figure it out for ourselves, that we are HSP, that our body and thoughts react to stimuli and people in totally deeper level than most of people on this planet.
And further more, I think we are not here by mistake. I think we are suppose to speak up and share our story and our "way of life" : understanding, empathy and consideration for what might be considered "different" and non standard pattern in talk and behaviour.
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(reddit)
By learning why. Reading books about Social anxiety to learn about it more. If we feel uncomfortable symptoms that do not correspond to environment and they are not in congruence to objective reality around us, there is a reason why we have this reactions.
If I curse, if I am rude to others, if I have no control and I throw temper tantrums and if I am hysterical all the time and if I belittle and abuse others - it would be "normal" to cringe and feel embarrassed about it, because I am not behaving in sync with environment around me and I am cringing and embarrassing myself, my cringe and embarrassment is caused by myself, inner factor.
However if I am in conversation with someone toxic who is provoking me and accusing me of false things, gaslight me and ashame me for anything, whereas I am even not talking at all due to this toxic person drama and talking - then I would say the problem is caused by external factor, and it is again, "normal" reaction to the abuse.
Yet, if I do nothing out of ordinary and I have intrusive thoughts that give me cringe and deep shame that feels embarrassing, and there is no internal or external factor - yeah, I would seek what is triggering it. I learned that I have certain situations and certain people who make me cringe and feel embarrassed. It is combination of outer person and my own inner explanations and thought process. I learned this is governed by toxic shame, which gives me false explanations about other people and about me - usually that there is something terribly wrong with me. I discovered this is the result of trauma, being exposed to relentless criticism and nagging in childhood. And that solution goes into direction that I accept myself, with symptoms of embarrassment and in the same time to detect and inspect triggers that set me of into intrusive cringe and deep shame feelings.
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(reddit)
"I've noticed throughout my life that some ppl just see quiet/introverted people as bad/evil/mean even if thats not the case."
I notices here on reddit that most "introverted" yet vocal people are surprisingly very argumentative and stubborn - it just does not show up with words. They think in their minds that their thoughts are correct, they never doubt their conclusions and perceptions. In the same time they see other people as if other people are never wrong, as if other people whatever they say is ultimate truth and it cannot be challenged or changed. So there is no exchange of ideas, there is no interdependence, there is only one-way communication: I am right. You are not. And if I disagree, that this disagreement must be defined by labelling other people as "aggressive" and "argumentative" and "opiniated". As if it is hard to say "I disagree with you, let's leave it at that".
I think this unrecognized prejudgments puts other people off.
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(19.2.2022)
Yeah, this was hypnosis for me. It is as veil is in front of my eyes and I cannot see clearly. I was convinced all the time that: 1) there is only one type of narcissist: screaming, yelling, throwing temper tantrums 24/7 2) that narcissism means direct and open exploitation 24/7
Nope. I was wrong. There are 4 types of narcissists - only one type is openly aggressive and openly rude. And all 4 of them cover these abusive personal unprovoked and unjustified assaults with being nice, and good and well meaning and friendly however with constant judgements, criticism and nitpicking that is very well masked. Then when drama hour kicks in, the attack and assault is made as if it is my fault, that I am the cause of their anger, I provoked them by being me. This dynamic is very hard to grasp and understand when in company with narcissist. They wear mask that appears as "normal" face, it is hard to recognize that there is mask and fake persona there.
Thank you for making these videos! We need information, this is our only tool to protect and learn how to protect ourselves.
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(reddit)
Psychologically speaking this is due to toxic shame. We believe we are inept, unworthy and weird because of abuse, bullying and neglect in the past. Now toxic shame exports our identity, our persona, our self worth onto other people. Then everything we do and speak and act is fake - it feels fake - because it is not based from inside of us. If we had self worth inside us, we would not feel this fake and false interactions. This is called external reference locus of control - because we try to achieve anything in life through external - other people. We think other people are smart, experienced, better, more intelligent, more socially smart, confident - and this is because our self worth is inside them. We are looking ourselves through the other people. Our body - our words thus are zombie, a shell, and everything we say and do - we do in order to please others, where our "brain" is actually located now. This is why their criticism hurts so much. This is why their words sound like obey and command to us - because we are not inside ourselves. We cannot say to someone stop it, or go away - because we are trauma bonded with other people.
Since there are a lot of people, it is impossible to please everyone - so natural solution for psyche is to avoid people and to develop strong physical symptoms when we are in contact with other people. Other people command us. They command our thoughts, words, actions - and we are totally unaware of this process. When we are isolated and alone, we feel better - because there are no people around us - and our self worth is forced to be inside us, at least for a while. Then we do not have anxiety, then we act "normally", then we are able to respond, talk without shaking and panic and we are not drained. Because there are no other people where our self worth will jump inside. We literally are not ourselves when we are around other people.
The solution is surprisingly simple - to self validate and to accept ourselves fully, in every aspect, with mistakes and flaws. Being stupid and embarrassed - we validate it, know it is normal to make mistake and be fine with panic and shaking and any physical symptoms. Toxic shame is hallucination and it is rooted in invalidation. So being authentic, honest and validating towards ourselves (loving oneself) is healthy road to take.
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(reddit)
Classical CBT made me into having serious and chronic people pleasing issues, being pushover and fawning as automatic reaction to triggers. Since it never addressed the core issue with social anxiety: trauma from society. It prevents from forming narcissistic fake persona of superiority, but in the same time it does not explain to be on par with everyone else. For example it does not address what to do when in presence with socially accepted deviations such as hysteric, hooligans, criminals and dangerous people.
Medication: I hate supporting drug mafia and it is a form of lobotomy, I strongly oppose chemicals - especially since it is toxic and cancerogenic.
Meditation: I learned that any response to anxiety in any form of ritual is PureOCD and it creates chronic worry and hypervigilance. I would advice caution with this approach. If we need to calm down as some kind of precondition to be social - this will lead to more anxiety. What happens when we are unable to calm down in face of social event aka 99 percent of social exposure? Meditation is great for relaxing and transcendence, I support it from Buddhist perspective - however I would separate it from medical side and keep DBT as third wave of CBT to be our guide: Humanistic Psychology. Self acceptance, self validation and loving oneself.
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(reddit)
> “if this person is making fun of me, probably everyone at the store has this same opinion about me”
yep. It is like you are reading my own mind, this is exactly how I feel when mocked in public, It is spotlight and deep embarrassment from all people around. That is toxic shame. We were traumatized to react in this manner.
I think your manager would be very upset if you leave. He knows that he works with such morons and with you leaving - just leave space for these senseless idiots to occupy daily life while good and kind people like you are chased away.
I would try to do this loving oneself, and accepting myself, all my symptoms and all my distorted thoughts as they are. Just validate them as normal after effect of trauma and invalidation in the past that was not our choice nor it was our fault to happen. We did nothing to initiate it, the trauma was implanted onto us. With time, as you self validate yourself, you should feel less preoccupied with other people and their opinions and their actions. Your self love will be reflected in external world - you will also be able to accept jerks and idiots like that - by seeing them on par. This will give you courage to talk to them in their face and warn and alert them that they are rude. With trauma we are programmed to shut up, self censor and not voice out the elephant in the room.
This person what he did was extremely rude. If he did this to someone who was not socially apprehensive, he might even get smacked in the head. But he knows you are good, kind, nice and open person so he sees you as easy target to bully. That is how bully operate. That mocking makes him feel superior and this feeds his own validation and worth - by abusing other people. He is sick. With this mindset he will end up in jail some day. He will ruin his relationships and his life - so it would be healthy for him to confront him and warn him that he is inconsiderate and rude. Without explosions and wars. As I said, with social anxiety we are unable to confront, we have too much panic. The exit from our internalized toxic shame lies in our self validation and self love and self acceptance.
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(reddit)
"that doesn’t mean CBT doesn’t address that"
It does not. I suffer from social anxiety since 1989. I started to read about it since 1996. I was explaining my doctors what social phobia was in 1999, they never heard about it, it was called phobia back then.
I have been following all CBT advice since the 1996 - I read and I have been following all available advice from Classical CBT verbatim, literally every advice that was given. If they told me to jump of the cliff, I would.
Without panic symptoms - I was left with trauma, toxic shame and external reference locus of control - and Classical CBT never gave explanation what this is and what to do. I know now it is because social anxiety is new discovered phenomena and researchers have no money to pull massive funding to research it, nor they had enough time to draw practical results and solutions.
Classical CBT helped me to calm down the panic - but only on surface. Classical CBT never mentions narcissistic abuse and trauma nor intrusive thoughts, PureOCD phenomena.
As I said in my post, third wave of CBT - was the opposite: it worked like a charm! Third wave address the core issue with social anxiety - and I learned that Classical CBT did not base their research on Social anxiety at all. They collected mildly shy people who were self diagnosed back then as socially phobics. People with true social anxiety would never expose themselves to be examined and to be in the group settings, nor they would admit that they have social anxiety issues - they would blame something else like caprice, or perk or low self esteem.
I will repeat, Third wave of CBT works, (DBT and Humanistic psychology). Classical CBT, not, it is detrimental, it does not solve social anxiety issues, it dampens them.
"Third wave CBT" "Rather than focusing on reducing symptoms—though this is a benefit—they help the client step away from unhelpful thoughts." "Two therapies that come under the third wave CBT umbrella are ACT (acceptance and commitment therapy) and DBT (dialectical behavior therapy)."
" Humanistic therapies" "This group of therapies encourages an individual to resolve their problems and issues and achieve greater fulfillment by recognizing, understanding, and using their own capacity to develop. Humanists believe that not only is a person capable of making changes and achieving personal growth but it is their responsibility to do so. This idea places the individual fully in control of their choices and goals."
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(reddit)
> turn the other person into a complete and total Disney villain
She said that this person "I heard him mimic what I said in the most demeaning, crybaby voice possible to my boss." Regular people do not mock. Normal people do not do this. It is abnormal. If you have 18 years or more and you mimic other people - you have some serious issues. And this is only tip of an iceberg. I would trust our social anxiety symptoms - instead of pathologizing them and mocking them and going along with abuser with Stockholm Syndrome approach. I see this as social anxiety itself, that you are unable to detect mentally ill people and you defend them. This mocking is superiority complex. This person build fake persona and feels empowered by making fun of people around them. Grown ups do not do this.
"He could have been doing it harmlessly " I doubt that he mimics other people there who are aggressive and temperamental. They would kick his butt.
"But there's no need to paint the picture of him being this totally evil bad guy," Inferiority complex and people pleasing is part of social anxiety. And if you read my post in full, instead of hysterically giving it down vote just because you feel cognitive dissonance - you would discover that I did not paint him as evil at all. I said: "seeing them on par."
"Having an everybody is out to get me perspective is always going to manifest more anxiety." Having people pleasing attitude and being pushover and fawning and ignoring and mocking our own social anxiety alarm system as Disney nonsense absolutely does not help.
Self acceptance and self validation is clinical technique by Humanistic Psychology and Third wave of CBT, DBT and it works like a charm.
Unfortunately wrong unintentional advice is as detrimental as totally wrong advice.
She can in the end try to see what happens when she sees people around her on par, and when she accept and validate herself in full. You don't even allow this to happen. You downvote and criticize and give your limited socially anxious fears to guide her to feel mocking as normal and to normalize abuse, just as we were been taught in Complex trauma childhood to normalize narcissistic abuse as normal and welcoming. That is not helpful at all.
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(reddit)
"I’ll remove some of the mental barriers I’ve created to almost protect myself around other people. " This is interesting for me from my perspective - I do not have any barriers, I am open as a book. I think this is because of all self help books and medical books about anxiety that I have read - based on Classical CBT where they explain in detail that you do not have to be afraid of people, and that it is your explanations that are problem. However they miss trauma-PureOCD and toxic shame stuff - and I am left being people pleaser and pushover because I have no barriers. Anyone can come by, ask me to do anything, and I would do it, I would try to fix, I would feel extreme shame if I decline. I now know this is called fawning and it is the result of abuse - to serve and to be subservient to authority. Classical CBT does not address this part at all, it leaves you open to people without any internal borders to protect you from manipulative people.
" You almost always realize it’s not as scary as you thought it up in your head." I realized it is our conclusions, our definitions, our labels. They are messed up. They appear very solid, real and extremely realistic - but they are false, fake, product of toxic shame - that I am inept while others are superior. And thus any criticism from others is felt like personal attack and assult - which as I said I solved by fawning and shutting up, without any protection for example I never could say "I disagree with you". I learned if you say that, that I must do it in explosions or wars, or get severely punished if I decline something.
"I guess just exposing yourself to those situations over and over and over again, you can only keep that high level of anxiety up for so long" Yep, and it is not exposure to people at all. It is exposure to people's attitude. So it can be done online too. In the beginning I could not even interact online, it was to scary for me. I could not enter chat rooms, I would feel extreme panic and fear just to be in chat room - without talking :D It is like - to be exposed to criticism and different opinion and to state my opinion and that other person does not respond well to me. That kind of exposure.
"Most of the “bad” was just in your head the whole time." Yes. Totally. I think this social anxiety is in our heads. Other people are just avatars - we are actually afraid of ourselves all the time. Our self that would come out when it is angry and when it needs to stand up for itself. This is causing the panic.
"Everyone feels like they need to have some reason to be loved. They need to earn it." And I learned it is not love like taking a soothing bath or buying yourself chocolate or some treat. It is more like accepting your panic. That you do not label it as sissy or weak. Or when someone is rude, that you do not label this person as ok and to forgive them - it is about being authentic and honest - and if this means that I need to want and alert other person - that would be an act of love. I see this as self-validation. That I do not pathologize my social anxiety symptoms anymore. I stand up and advocate my symptoms as valid - even though they are all based on bad thoughts. And this is additional problem. Sometimes there is External Factor. Sometimes there are bad people. IT is not our thoughts that are messed up.
This is what Classical CBT messed up. Classical CBT made me think that my thoughts are bad and that I over-react. And then I would be in situation with bully or some difficult person on work or street - and I would shut up to them. They would start verbal fight and I would self censor myself. I would know what to say but I would stay silent - because Classical CBT taught me that over-reaction is wrong. Well in certain situation being "over-reactive" is necessary. Without it, I did not how to deal with dangerous real situations - other than people pleasing, being pushover, being afraid to say no, afraid to decline -and this built up in additional social anxieties where now I am afraid of being hurt by hysterical people.
I see Third wave CBT as excellent solution to that problem. Once I validate my emotions of panic as ok, I can respond to people, interact with them, no longer hiding I can evaluate the problem to see if I am over-reacting or if other person is really rude. If they are rude, when I know I am ok with panic attacks symptoms, I can warn and alert them without explosions and wars. That part is something I would get stuck before. I would stay stuck in being stuck, shutting up and self-censorship.
I would not initiate, I would react to people. Like NPC Wojak, someone without persona, without needs and wishes and opinions , I just go along as other I think would like me to be. Nothing. Doing nothing and not provoking and silencing myself for the sake of not rocking the boat... ---
(reddit)
Yeah, same here. That is social anxiety.
It is our beliefs, our conclusions, our rules... they are all partially wrong or almost totally wrong. They are based on other people, what we expect other person would approve. We do this unconsciously, as if under hypnosis. We think we want to do something or say something, but in presence of other people - it is filtered and censored through other people - real or imagined criticism. We take our decisions seriously. We take other people words seriously. And it is solid - there is no room for mistakes or change in plan - or it causes severe panic and fears. That is toxic shame. That is having a mask. We are not authentic. We distrust ourselves, we think we are not worthy and if we are honest that people will judge and reject us. So we pretend and do anything to sooth the other people around us.
I learned this can be stopped by allowing myself to make mistake and to embarrass myself. That I am ok with being a fool for what I truly want to do or say. That is act of self validation. This is strange concept for us.
Other kids learned this when they were 12, 13 - we were arrested in development. Instead of choosing and knowing what I want - instead I became preoccupied what other people would approve. That is where it went wrong. The correct way would be that I stand up with my opinion - and that I know that I might be wrong. And also that I am open for the opposite opinion - but that I am aware that other person may be either wrong and right, even if I like it or not. There are like alternations and variations left for negotiation. That is healthy, this is what people without "social anxiety" do all the time. This is why they appear "confident" and "strong" in social situations.
With social anxiety this part is rock solid. It is like in Russian USSR propaganda biro. There is no democracy. Only one side. IT is like what other person say - it is order and command and there is no way to doubt it or deny it. Or in another extreme - that I reject other people and I self isolate and run away from them. It is black and white decision making. That is social anxiety.
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(reddit)
"overcompensating and I think you are doing it." You think wrong.
" better for their growth to just forget about it" I tried to forget it. I tried it for 20 years. It does not work. It turns you into people pleaser, pushover, people take advantage of you. You are left alone since you do not initiate, you become NPC Wojak, philosophical zombie without your opinion - wrong or right, you become faceless person who does nothing unless being invited. You are ok to make mistake. You are ok to make fool of yourself. You cannot be perfect in everything. With social anxiety you never break the ice. You never try what would happen that instead of being passive and afraid - what would happen if I speak my mind and stop shutting up.
Your advice to forget about it is self-censorship. This is invalidation. You self abuse yourself into silence and passivity. It is your life, your choice, if you like to be victim and other people to shove you around - ok, do it. See where you will end up with that choice. If I forget about because I am scared, that is social anxiety. You do not want to get better. You do not want to become authentic and honest. You want to wear mask and be nice good buy who never rocks the boat and who is devoid of natural responses and natural authentic wishes and opinions.
"It’s just not letting it bother you" But how? This is the core problem with social anxiety. You can't. This what you describe here is immature ego defense mechanism. You are advocating mental illness here. This is immature ego defense: Denial. avoidance of awareness of some painful reality. Displacement. taking feelings out on a neutral 3rd party. Fixation. rationalization denial dissociation autistic fantasy,
Sorry, but you obviously never studied social anxiety and you do not want to get better. You don't want to know about social anxiety, you are not interested in growing. Your life, your choice, but please curb your crab mentality. Just because some of us try to get help, do not pull us back under. IF you like living in fear and anxiety, why are you here anyways? You like to scare other people? You enjoy in other people problems? Why are you here? You like to nag, complain? What?
"make you run away" I never said what actions she or I or anyone must take. It all depends on situation. If we love ourselves, if we accept and validate ourselves, our super-ego will take charge instead of toxic shame. We will listen to our instinct and our authentic self instead of other people approval and being pushover. We will get inner guidance instead of your narcissistic mask of superiority and instant-stoicism. I find this approach supported by psychiatry healthier and I will listen to experts rather than some guy over reddit - who might not have social anxiety at all.
Sorry, I do not see the reason to continue this discussion You carry on with your plans. I will listen to people who love me and care for my well being and who are experts and professionals in this field.
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(reddit)
> You’re making a lot of assumptions
But this is what HSP do - we analyze. This is not pathology. This is not something to ashame and make weird and analyze. Analysis leads to paralysis.
You just do not mock other people. IF she obviously did not enjoy in mocking, this is act of bullying. This is workplace mobbing. Adult people do not mock other people. There has to be something in your brain that does not work - if you think it is ok to be unkind to other people.
I think with social anxiety we are unable to detect abusive people. This is due to trauma. We think other people are ok when they are clearly abusive. We make all kinds of explanations and approval for their actions.
This guy will not stop this. He will perceive silence as green light to continue this. He would be kicked if he did that to any other person who is not feeling social anxiety. But he knows who he will mock because he is coward too.
If he mocked you, would you also rationalize and live in denial? You like to be victim and that other people take advantage of you? That is result of toxic shame. We think we are unworthy and then we allow other people to mock us and we join in their mocking. That is Stockholm Syndrome. With social anxiety we never break the ice and see what would happen if I do react and make a scene. Instead - we choose to shut up and self censor ourselves. And then live in social anxiety, and fear from embarrassment. We try to people please people who mock us, with expectation that they will never mock us ever again. This is trauma bonding.
In childhood we were exposed to long term narcissistic abuse. We were programmed into learned helplessness and to normalize abuse.
We think if we react that we only have one option - to make drama, explosions and wars. We do not see that we just may say Knock it off, or stop it. Or mock them back, or anything, we do not try anything - and we shut up and we think we are over-sensitive.
We never think that this person is abuser, that he does this chronically. That he seeks silent and quiet people because he is mentally ill. This option never crosses our mind. We immediately blame ourselves, we are wrong, we are over.sensitive - just as we were being told by our bullies. We repeat trauma - and we self abuse ourselves into submission and silence and social anxiety.
With self validation this toxic mess can end. This means that I trust my social anxiety and my discomfort. That I validate it. I may be over-reacting, this person may mock only once and never again - but I will never find this out if I shut up, if I self censor and if I do not voice out the elephant in the room. With social anxiety I seek approval from other people to judgement commence. With social anxiety we expect that other people tell something, we do not trust our own opinion and our own common sense and our emotions.
We make other people into superior being, gods. Where their opinion is correct and natural and normal, while we are over.sensitive, wrong and critical and opiniated and argumentative. We never speak it out what bothers us and thus we never test our presumptions, they stay inside us and they are trapped inside. That is trauma.
With self validation I can stand up for myself. I can allow myself to make fool of myself and embarrass myself and make a scene.
People who do not have social anxiety do this all the time. Other people are clueless just as we are. Anxiety does not define us as human beings. With toxic shame and trauma we think we are our social anxiety. But from our perspective, we think other people are correct and we seek approval and validation from others. Well - it will never come. Other people will never take our side. Other people will never say good job, Other people will never protect us. Other people will never be our advocate. This is our job. With self acceptance I can take care of myself and I can make my own decisions wrong or right. I can make a scene if I want to if someone mocks me. I know I am not evil nor violent person - so I have nothing to hide nor to be ashamed of.
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(reddit)
"how exactly do you put this information to use" Excellent question!
I see it like this: Social anxiety is like being stuck. But we are not aware that we are stuck. It is like you are in a car on ice lake. You press gas pedal, wheels are turning but the car is not moving forward. It is stuck. From your perspective you are trying your best to move, you are inside the car - but the car itself is moving in its place. That is social anxiety. We are stuck in our thinking. We have explanations and perceptions - but they do not serve us purpose. From our perspective these explanations are all we got and there is no alternative. Another analogy is like Sandra Bullock in the movie Gravity (2013). We are floating in the space, and we can't find grip , we are moving in all directions but without firm grip to stand. Inside our suit we are not moving, our body is moving and yet we do not have solid surface - so we float nowhere. That is social anxiety. And we try to grab objects - I see this as people. We hold onto people for stance, to stop spinning - and other people thus are our gods, they are superior to us. We are inferior - since we are floating, while other people are grounded and stable so we hold onto other people. The result is that we people please, and we believe other people's opinion is ultimate truth about anything in life. We end up being people pleasers and pushovers and we shut up and self-censor ourselves, since other people are our grip. If we let go of them we would float and be unstable. With time we are not aware that we do not hold onto them anymore, it becomes habit in any situation to hold onto people. That is social anxiety. We seek approval and validation from people.
So I see analogy with car - to get unstuck - we have to get out of the car and give it a push onto solid ground.
We do this by trusting our common sense. That we trust our opinions, our statements our accumulated knowledge and we take other people advice into consideration - not as order, just as possible instruction that we might or not take. The choice is ours. The point is that car itself on ice is not helping us to move. We have to push it. I see this as seeing anxiety as liar. When we are afraid or in panic - that we do not believe every thought we have. Instead we step out of the car and evaluate like scientist what is happening, like engineer make calculation where to go. With social anxiety we do not do this step. We stay in the car with our thoughts and we try to solve problems which are unsolvable. We interpret dangerous people as friends. We interpret normal people as dangerous. The world is twisted and there is a lot of lies from anxiety. And this makes us distrust ourselves. We conclude we are unworthy and we develop toxic shame. We stop trusting our choices, decisions and we are afraid to make mistakes or make a full out of ourselves. We are stuck in appearing without mistakes and our choices are based on other people, not on ourselves.
So to put this information in use - is the message from psychology: that we become our own advice givers. That we rely on our inner GPS, not other people. That we try things that we like. That we accept our panic, that we do not hide it anymore. That we accept our flaws - that we do not hide them. That is self-validation. That we accept ourselves as we are totally, without pretending or wearing a mask. That we are honest and authentic without being rude to others. I learned that this will be shocking change. We will start to feel less anxiety and we will start to appear arrogant to others becuase we will be honest. Other people hate truth especially if we disagree with them. Before, we would avoid this part. We would people please them and shut up and then feel bad and unworthy because we felt inept. Now I am happy with being inept- I am fine with mistakes and flaws - and I allow myself to help myself when I can when I am ready for it. That is self validation. We did not receive this when growing up. That is love. No one explained us what love is. We got wrong messages. We got scorned and we got criticism all the time. We were ashamed for our natural mistakes and we were punished when we would express ourselves. Expressing ourselves is self acceptance, that society no longer defines what I like, what I want to speak, what I want to wear. If I am non violent and if I am unkind - I am allowed to speak and do anything. With toxic shame there is guilt all the time. We carry guilt with us without knowing it is inside us.
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"There’s a lot of projection in here." Yes there is, it is social anxiety. There suppose to be projections. You project too. Everyone who had trauma projects. We were programmed in abuse to project, this is not something you can remove with press of button or just being aware of it. Also, this is label. Labels disable. If you go really deep you will find a lot of others immature ego defense mechanisms. Projections is not the only one. There are also plethora of cognitive distortions, too. That is social anxiety, that makes it complex. I learned that if you react to it, if you shame it, if you make your symptoms into problem - you are doing a lot of damage, because you are telling yourself that you are inept - with having something that is normal and natural reaction to social anxiety. That is self validation - that you validate projection. You do not accept it as permanent condition. You are aware it is there and you build up on that to make yourself less and less socially anxious and more and more experienced with people, and with time you will let go of defense mechanisms when you find out that other people are not so scary. This is defense mechanism. This is not pathology. This is not something that you hurt other people, it is detrimental but it serves its purpose. It made us survive long term narcissistic abuse when we were kids. While other children grew up with love, we were raised with adult hysteria and hate. Child brain cannot live with that cruel treatment, immature ego defense mechanisms are protective tool - that stayed stuck into adulthood. You cannot remove it by pathologizing it and being ashamed of it. What you persist, resists. I would go with self-validation here. I would focus on solving problem rather than my own symptoms that are normal reaction to abnormal situations, people and events from past and todays' triggers.
"Don’t you think you’re jumping the gun with everything?" No. I think I can validate myself. If I am kind and non violent, I don't think it is wrong to experiment and seek the best solution. With social anxiety I have only one way: to be afraid and to shut up, to people please and fawn. Well, with self-validation and without toxic shame - suddenly the whole new world opens. I can experiment. I can try out new methods. I can allow myself to make mistakes. I can allow myself to be see what will happen if I try something new. I do not shame myself anymore. I do not shame my symptoms. I know I will never be rude or violent to another person - this allows me to be creative. I think this is healthy choice.
"What if you’re wrong?" I know I am wrong. We are all wrong. We are all bizarre we just cover it all up to appear perfect and nice to other people. All people are wrong. Who defines wrongness? Is there some kind of book of wrong? If I am kind and non violent - I can be wrong, I am allowed to be wrong. I know what I can doubt myself and other people. This makes me creative and free. With internalized toxic shame I think I am wrong by default. That is toxic shame. Toxic shame is very toxic. IT is at root of all distorted thinking and social anxiety itself. Therefore fear of being wrong is toxic shame, it is distorted thinking to believe I must be perfect. People are human, they are allowed to make mistakes. I know I do my best, I know I have best intentions. I know I do not have evil agenda. I know I will never hurt anyone nor I have any pretensions over something - therefore I can allow myself to be imperfect.
"what if if OPs interpretation of the guy teasing her is equally distorted?" Again, self-validation means that we validate our distorted conclusions. We know with social anxiety that anxiety lies to us all the time. But we do not have choice. We are forced to make decisions all the time. With toxic shame my self worth is exported onto other people and I will seek other people approval all the time. That is what toxic shame does, and the only way to break this toxic cycle is to believe myself, to trust my opinions and to be ok to make mistakes. This means, I validate my perceptions and that I know that I might be wrong. I doubt any thought I have, as Descartes and Socrates taught me, I also doubt other people. I do not take word and actions for granted and as order and command. I do not reject it either. I evaluate it like scientist. From all sides. And try to be objective as much as I can. This process is possible only if I self validate myself. In my experience, I learned that my perception about someone being jerk is always correct. People do not like to tarnish their reputation. When they are confronted, they will lie. They will try to appear good and nice, and they will never admit to be jerk. I see social anxiety (at least for us HSP types) as alarm and signal inside us that is extremely sensitive and it gets triggered at slightest sign of abuse. I learned that I can respond to this signal - by alarming and alerting others, by voicing elephant in the room - and that I can do it in calm manner, without wars and explosions. I learned if I ignore this signal that I get moral injury. I can get physically sick and mentally distressed. Also, if we shut up to bully, it is most probably that they will repeat it in future. Bullying others is pathology. It will not wear off on its own ,it only gets worse. Also, I see what other people who do not have social anxiety do - they react. they do not shut up. They do not self censor themselves. They do it naturally. sometimes they do it through comedy, Sometimes they throw temper tantrums but they are not silent and they do not ignore. They left their natural reactions to guide them. We on the otherr hand are judged by society, we are judged by ourselves and we are judged by third parties and by psychology labels. Then those labels do more damage than good - because we turn into philosophical zombie, NPC Wojak - person without emotions, without identity, without our opinions, without our eccentricates. We become nothing. If we have distortions - I would accept it and built up on that. I would explore them. I would trust my brain. If it came up with these ideas there is probably reason why. I can seek objectivity and transparency. And abusers hate transparency. Abusers love silence and submission and ignoring the evil. Evil thrives when good people are made silent. We do not have to go to wars. Normal and healthy people will feel shame if they are confronted by their own actions, they would stop it. This is another super test to confirm if this person is mentally ill and aggressive in the same time.
"I just don’t think it’s a good idea to quit their job or go to HR over this." I think it is good idea to make mistakes. I think it is good idea to explore. I think it is good idea to have inner GPS and trust intuition. To be your own advisor, your own internet database and to rely on my common sense and super ego. That is called internal intrinsic locus of control- this means we have self worth inside us because we trust accept and validate ourselves. With toxic shame we export our self worth onto other people and then we develop social anxiety, we seek other people approval all the time.
"I would just ignore the person being a dick" That is the central problem. That is social anxiety itself - you cannot just ignore. There is not button. This is what makes us different than other people. We can't ignore. Your body trauma triggers, thoughts - everything is stuck in abuse and criticism. The whole point of social anxiety is to get unstuck and finding methods how to just ignore jerks in this world. I found that self validation, self acceptance, DBT and Humanistic psychology is the only way to do this - and you cannot do this over night, it is process.
" you’re saying is that outlooks is gonna keep people in a mindset of thinking everyone who ever slights them is their evil enemy for life" HSPs and people with social anxiety cannot do this. We are extremely open, friendly, nice, diplomatic and we seek interdependence and peace. We cannot see evil in other people. That is why I encourage her to see this jerk as mentally ill person. It is because we see world from our own perspective (as any other person sees) - and since we are incapable being evil ,we cannot believe other people are capable to be evil. This puts us into position to fawn and to be exploited by others. That is why self validation is crucial and to remove toxic shame and external reference locus of control.
"The key to reducing it is understanding the world is actually not as scary and out to get you as it seems." The key for people with social anxiety is to realize the purpose of psychology is to give you tools to become your own master, that you take the key and drive you become driver. With mistakes, with flaws, with your identity, with being authentic and with voicing out the elephant in the room and with trusting our inborn HSP deep stimuli process that world will label as "social anxiety" "shyness" "weak" and other implanted labels from society.
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(reddit)
"they really are just as clueless as us." I think they are worse, we know all psychology tricks. It is like person who is in physical therapy so now you have muscles and fit diet body - as oppose to people who never went to therapy.
"there is never going to be an objective “right way”" There is none. If you are kind and non violent, there is no right way. It is trend, it is interest groups, there is no ultimate truth. This is basis for philosophy for 2000 years. They search for truth- truth is paradox. That is why we are all prone to biases, quick shortcuts, logical fallacies. The difference is that due to anxiety, we are labeled as "biased" while all people are prone to it.
"I don’t know how to react in a way that’s “appropriate” all the time," There is none. It is up to us. We depend on other people, that is external locus of control. That will lead nowhere - a lot of people - a lot of wants needs and lot of various and different conclusions and rules. IT is impossible to satisfy it all, they are contradictory. With social anxiety we try to do impossible, to satisfy everyone because we do not love ourselves. We do not live our life.
"So what do you do? Is it better to overreact, underreact, or is there some way we can react appropriately or is there no such thing?" I believe there is third way. We never learned it because we never loved ourselves. We lived our life through other people - this is why we over and under reacted. We will find the peace when we love ourselves. Then we will love other people. We will react naturally with love. We will not make drama anymore, since there will be no drama inside us.
"But identifying every vaguely problematic person you encounter in life as a narcissistic parent and dealing with them on that basis doesn’t seem correct to me" If you been pushover all your life, I would start with that. As a first step. It will be wrong, it will lead to mistakes and tricky situations - but this is the only way to protect yourself and to warn other people. You learn that you can react in better manner, without drama . with time you learn this, but you must be willing to make mistakes and that you risk being misunderstood and be angry at and judged.
"Constantly reliving that pattern, internalizing that bitterness just seems bad for the person doing it." I see this as toxic shame. That is why I keep repeating love yourself. Accept yourself. Validate your symptoms. this destroys toxic shame and it brings self worth back inside and this makes us healthy. Drama will go on its own.
" I’d rather spend my energy focusing on interacting with the coworkers I actually like and ignoring the dbag." With trauma, with toxic shame - this is impossible, your trauma and fears make you into chronic worry and you are focused on negative and drama. That is your primary focus due to toxic shame and trauma.
"If they start picking on me every day that’d be a completely different story." I believe when we accept ourselves we will get inner voice that will tell us what to do, what is the best choice. For example, If you are stuck with hooligans who threaten your kids, you are totally ok to scream and become karen and make drama and scene.
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(20.2.2022)
Amazing message! It is not about focusing what is wrong - yet in order to grow we need to self- validate and accept ourselves and focus on what is good to grow. If we nitpick what is wrong, we will develop toxic shame, negative attitude. IT won't help, it will create worry and hypervigilance - it does not help to worry and feel ashamed for things that are currently in brown patch. With love and acceptance we transform it, not through criticism and nagging and complaining.
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"sometimes some of the management are bullys, how do you stop that?"
Actually, this is something that made me think more about social anxiety and the discovery that it doesn't actually help the victims of abuse.
It is as if after Classical CBT treatment you are left to be passive and pushover, people pleaser, similar to the movie A Clockwork Orange (1971) or The incident (1967) with Martin Sheen and Beau Bridges.
In both movies we see people stuck in fear, stuck in freeze response to the abuse. In Kubrick's masterpiece the main character is former bully and after psychology therapy through brainwashing - now after treatment he is no longer bully, but in the same time he is unable to respond to being attacked by bullies. He is now pushover, as if he had lobotomy that made him immobile to be violent even in situation where he is attacked, bullied.
Classical CBT is accepted as primary tool for Social anxiety by official medical organizations. As I said, classical CBT made me into pushover and people pleaser - and it did not remove my social anxiety at all. On the other hand, in the past few months I found third wave of CBT - called DBT working like a charm. In past year I discovered CPTSD and the information there helped me a lot to understand what social anxiety really is and how it effect our body and mind (emotional dysregulation).
Now, if we put in historical context- we know that the research about social phobia started with Zimbardo. He made Stanford prison experiment in early 1970s. It is less known that this experiment was sponsored and ordered by military. Who knows, maybe even by CIA or other services.
Later, Zimbardo establish clinic for shyness - based on the results of this controversial experiment and he said that shyness is becoming epidemic. He was pioneer in social anxiety. This all is happening after 1969 when social norms were broken and revolutionized and we can see how drugs and violence started to spread quickly like virus. This is historical context of social anxiety.
Well - what I noticed in reddit group for social anxiety for the time being there - is that there are a lot of people at reddit community who act as if they do not have social anxiety at all. They are very anti-social. They are out right rude. They cannot tolerate any kind of different opinion even if it is not about them! And they do not have any inhibitions, they appear anti-social, not social-feared. As if social anxiety attracts anti-social people too. With trauma information and learning about narcissism and narcissistic abuse, I learned that bullies are actually very insecure and they over-compensate by appearing aggressive and strong, they wear a mask. They are thus dangerous, since they built themselves fake persona and fantasy world. This is very ill. This can lead to bullying, due to narcissistic injury, and narcissistic rage. They are actually feeling social anxiety when they are confronted by their toxic behaviour. At reddit group - when I talked with them, they even admit that people who were rude to me and provoking arguments, that they do note have social anxiety traits, they feel anxiety in social settings. One of them told me out right she had mental illness non related to SAD.
This makes me think, perhaps Social anxiety was invented by the USA government as secret project to make a clockwork orange mechanism to brainwash population who was anti-social into passivity? :D That conspiracy theory would explain this ineffective Classical CBT.
Whereas people like you and me, who really have social anxiety, and who were victims of abuse and trauma - probably were collateral damage in this, we are too small percentage - whereas anti-social element is much greater in population. So basically, social anxiety program is not meant for socially anxious people. It is a program that attracts anti-social people to get into treatment to become social. :D Anti-social people would come willingly into the treatment - and receive anti-social program without actually being told it is program for their violent tendencies.
Because this is exactly how Classical CBT works - it does not address trauma, it does not address bullying, it does not address HSP and ability to deep process stimuli. It is directed into symptoms and emotions only. It does not prepare you how to defend yourself. Therapy does not tell you how to build your persona. Therapy does not tell you to become your own person and to produce your own choices in life. Therapy with classical CBT actually leaves you depended on social environment as the source of approval - and thus control you into submission and subservience - and thus control anti social element from becoming violent.
I don't think that I am this smart and intelligent that I am the only person in the world who has figured that trauma and social anxiety is connected and that classical CBT does not work at all. I think there is a reason why they pushed this program as it is. And we can see that the level of crime and violence did drop after 1970s. If there was such program to target anti-social element, it worked.
However it is very sinister to cover it up and keep quiet about it. And leave us, true socially anxious people in the dark, to struggle for decades with therapy that does not work and it is totally misguided...
Humanistic psychology works excellent for social anxiety. It was started by Carl Rogers in 1920. I doubt that all the psychiatrist would disregard this already set up tool - and completely ignore it. They are not that dumb neither I am that smart to figure it out... IT comes down to accept ourselves and to validate our fears and panic - and trust our brain to come up with solutions that we face - with mistakes and flaws included.. It is based on the fact that we are not violent nor unkind - so there is no reason to feel this implanted guilt and shame.
Where as anti-social people should feel social anxiety. When they bully other people - they should feel shame and guilt, because they are hurting others...
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(21.2.2022)
" 'Recovery lies in the places, experiences and with the people most feared. Seek them with utter acceptance'" This one needs clarification. Acceptance means validation of our panic. It is not acceptance of triggers - which usually are bullies and hysterical and dangerous people. This part is not enough explained in Classical CBT. Thus as a result, if you "accept" bullies that trigger social anxiety, you end up being pushover, people pleaser and you fawn to them. With time, we will attract manipulators and narcisissts and borderliners in our lives because this is where social anxiety stems from - from narcissistic trauma. In fact, it is said in this video that "being overly agreeable " is part of safety mechanism. That is it. So if we "accept" other person - we will confirm to be overly agreeable - this is what happened to me. I got stuck in this pattern. I read in psychological resources that I over-react with social anxiety - so I tried not to "over-react" - and I enforced my urge to shut up and self-censor myself. I ended up being ok with bully and someone accusing me of totally untrue accusations. I was convinced if I react - that I will engage in unhealthy social anxiety, because I was told to "accept" everything. Thus I wrongly concluded (as learned from being exposed to narcissistic abuse) that to react means to throw temper tantrums and explosions and wars. Which is what abusers to, I was exposed to this. I do not know alternative: that I voice out the elephant in the room, without drama, without explosions without personal attack. Narcissists (who will trigger us into social anxiety) will try to make us feel scared and they will accuse us of untrue things (they use gaslighting and smear campaign) - so they will try to provoke us into endless discussions with them. I see that acceptance here would mean that I accept my panic symptoms, not the narcissist nor narcissistic abuse. The goal is that I validate myself - because narcissists will use a lot of personal labels which they collected in honeymoon phase. I learned that with bullies and manipulators and narcissists - I miss red flags, because social anxiety is result of abuse - traumatic event in the past, so we were normalized into abuse as something normal. This will mean, I will not recognize that the other person who provokes social anxiety symptoms in me is mentally disturbed, mentally ill and I will try to "discuss" with this person and try to defend myself. OR I will shut up and accept whatever they say. I see these as dysfunctional reactions. With Complex trauma information I learned that this uncomfortable symptoms that I feel with social anxiety is emotional dysregulation and amygdala hijacking. SO symptoms are normal reaction to abnormal situations, abnormal people and abnormal events. That is what I accept. That symptoms are not wrong. However - bully and hysterical and manipulative people are wrong. And they feel superior by putting other people down. They always sniff out kind and nice and friendly people who are needy due to emotional neglect - so they will pick on us. With all this information - I will know that 1) I can defend myself by stating the truth. If I am in job situation, I know now that I can document abuse - and scientifically evaluate if I am attacked or is it me over-reacting. and 2) I can allow myself to evaluate the attacker instead of being afraid of them. This means that if I see that the other person is narcissistic, I know that they live in their fantasy world and it is useless to argue with them. So I can state my advocacy and move on, block them, ignore them. That is accepting - it is complex.
It is not about accepting the people who trigger us into social anxiety. It is not about accepting unfair and false accusations. I think this is important to note - because without clarification, people may be stuck with people pleasing and being pushover and in codependency and trauma bonding.
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From my personal experience this information: safety mechanism: being overly agreeable needs more clarification.
With social anxiety we are thrown in deep and intense panic symptoms - and this makes us shut up and self-censor ourselves. We think that there is something wrong with us - and this solidifies toxic shame already present inside us due to narcissistic abuse that causes Social anxiety and Complex trauma in the first place: being afraid of people who are hysterical, rude and aggressive (judgemental and critical).
So with panic causes by judgemental and critical people, we tend to people please, to not rock the boat, to keep peace at any cost - and this is why we develop safety mechanism to be overly agreeable: this is what we learned - learned helplessness when being exposed to trauma. Exposure to long term narcissistic abuse causes brain damage. I see these symptoms as wound and injury and programming from abuse in the past. This means we will default to panic and to feeling inferior to others.
As I understand, we react to people who act superior, to narcissists because we were abused by them. Classical CBT focuses too much on the symptoms - it puts them in the primary focus. This has detrimental effect in socially anxious people because of toxic shame - it seems that we are abnormal because we feel panic, it seems that other people are normal because they do not have social anxiety. And also, it gives impression that all people are normal - and whatever we think and do is abnormal. Third wave of CBT - DBT and Humanistic psychology are focused on self validation - this tackles toxic shame inside us that makes us export our self worth in other people and we trauma bond with them. Toxic shame is thus entity that needs to be expelled - by realizing that toxic shame is hallucination. In the same time, the other people and especially those who are critical and judgemental and like to argue - we got to realize they are problem - not us. IT is about learning what narcissism is - so that we can identify them and thus protect ourselves better than through focusing on our reactions and our symptoms - which need acceptance and validation. I see social anxiety as alarm system, present in HSP people as deep stimuli process mechanism. The sickness is only when we stay in toxic relationships - and we stay with toxic people because of toxic shame. So toxic shame is problem here, not social anxiety itself. Toxic shame is product of abuse - so Complex Trauma is umbrella that hovers over social anxiety, and Complex Trauma offers all the explanations about social anxiety that Classical CBT does not offer. All the missing information is and can be found in Complex Trauma information. So Polyvagal theory will explain why we fawn and engage in trauma responses. It explains triggers and flashbacks. It explains hormones and chemicals that influence our thinking patterns into feeling programmed and implanted guilt. Classical CBT does not do that. Classical CBT primary focus is in symptoms - and thus it is pathologizing our natural reactions to abuse, including the immature ego defense mechanisms that we learned as kids. I see that once we remove toxic shame, we can become authentic self, since self worth will return inside where it belongs, and we will see ourselves at par on other people. Dynamics inferior-superior will no longer be default thinking. Once we love ourselves, we will drop off immature ego defense mechanisms, because we will not react anymore to imaginary threats. And also, we will choose wiser and healthier options in life - which may include ignoring and blocking narcissistic people. They will be repelled by us in the first place, because without toxic shame we will be honest, authentic and we will express ourselves. With toxic shame we live in guilt and shame all the time, with secrets -- and this attracts narcissists like moth to a flame.
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I see social anxiety as alarm system, which is very sensitive in HSP people. Social anxiety symptoms like panic and feeling inferior, awkward and non - confident is result of trauma, being exposed to narcissistic abuse. Social anxiety is not something to destroy, it is natural response to evil. With panic we tend to be ego-centric - and we see world from tunnel vision. Thus we will conclude that we are the problem - and this is self abuse. This is the result of narcissistic abuse: toxic shame. That we are inferior, bad, abnormal - while all other people are happy, healthy, cheerful, confident, superior. That is toxic shame and ego-centric view and it is lie. Other people feel social anxiety, too - but they do not define it as social anxiety. Other people do feel panic and inferiority - but they use narcissistic tools to feel confident by putting other people down and building false persona.
I see self acceptance as anti-dote to toxic shame and narcissistic abuse effects. Self validation as explained by third wave of CBT, DBT and Humanistic Psychology tells us that is we do not feel confident - this is ok. Once we accept ourselves we will be able to built up. Building false persona is road to narcissism. Being disgusted by ourselves because we do not feel confident all the time is toxic shame. WE do not validate ourselves, we reject parts of ourselves - being scared and triggered by hysterical judgemental and critical people.
I would change perspective about social anxiety. Problem is Complex Trauma, that is hovering above social anxiety like umbrella. If we pathologize our natural reaction to trauma, we will take wrong road that leads to toxic shame and narcissistic mask, fake persona. That will lead to chronic worry and hypervigilance and narcissistic injury, being afraid to be exposed as fake person. Unhealthy choice.
When we accept and self validate ourselves, we can be honest, authentic and we express ourselves. With pathologizing our social unease - we pathologize ourselves and we repeat the trauma that expose us to feeling guilty all the time and being ashamed for being authentic. By pathologizing shyness we put ourselves being inferior to others, we are not on par with other people. We may over-compensate this inferiority by toxic positivity - being super-confident. Confidence is not problem at all. Trauma is. Being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse causes brain damage. With brain injury, we will not feel confident since we are wounded. I would heal this wound by self love. Not by building up fake persona and narcissistic mask of super-confidence. With mask, toxic shame is still inside, and toxic shame is real illness here. Not social anxiety.
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How can you practice toxic shame and trauma effects? You will only get more toxic shame and trauma.
As kids we were exposed to narcissistic abuse and this caused deep toxic shame. This means our psyche build immature ego defense mechanisms and safety mechanisms that does not work in social situations, similar to original trauma. This means, we cannot get better by ourselves. We need instruction and discovery of toxic shame inside us that is creating panic and inferiority complex.
Get out there will not help. We already pay attention to other people - social anxiety means social fear - therefore the title suggest that we are zoomed onto fear object.
"You will figure out" Nope. You will go into two alternatives: 1) fawning, people pleasing and being pushover in order to not the rock the boat. This makes us safe and we will keep job and financial security by not confronting bullies whom we will attract like moth to a flame or 2) fight response - building fake persona which leads to narcissism and anti-social behaviour. IT resolves social anxiety however it can land you in jail and without job due to confrontations and anger outbursts.
The alternative is self-validation, as explained in DBT and Humanistic Psychology. With self love we tackle the toxic shame that is the root virus here that is creating all the mess in our heads. Exposure will only reinforce and somewhat diminish panic and trauma symptoms. We will not figure it out - since our toxic shame will cloud our judgement. Toxic shame is like veil over our face or seeing reality through the gaze. We do not see reality and people clearly. IT is distorted, that is why we will not and we cannot figure it out by ourselves. Horrible advice, this advice is how to enforce and solidify social anxiety.
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Social anxiety is part of Complex trauma, being exposed to emotional neglect. BY definition social anxiety is fear from criticism and judgement from other people. This means - we will react to hysterical and be afraid of aggressive and rude people. This is why we do not express ourselves.
We learned not to express ourselves freely because we were exposed to unrecognized mentally ill people, emotional invalidation, long term narcissistic abuse. Total lack of love.
Also, social anxiety is alarm system and being sensitive to deep stimuli process. Thus social anxiety is not bad.. Toxic shame is problem. Symptoms are not problem - they are natural reaction to abnormal people, abnormal situations and abnormal event.
We lie and have secrets only because we were trained like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals into guilt and feel of being inept and wrong: toxic shame internalized. We lie in order for hysterical people not to get mad at us, that we do not experience their hysteria which is painful - due to trauma and trauma bonding with others.
I see self validation as explained in DBT and Humanistic psyhology as tool to tackle toxic shame. When we have self worth - we will develop healthy habits, naturally, freely express ourselves, not being obsessed by inferior-superior dynamics. We can't have self worth inside us when we have toxic shame internalized inside (belief we are inferior).
Thus learning to speak - is unnecessary. We need to accept ourselves as we are. With panic, with stuttering, with mistakes and with flaws - and then build on that. Social anxiety people having low communication skills is myth. We have communication skills - in fact very deep skills such as empathy - however this is buried and covered due to toxic shame. Toxic shame makes us shut up, self censor ourselves, we see other people as superior and their conclusions and words are ultimate truth and ultimate judgement about anything in life - and this belief makes us mute and inactive and passive. Toxic shame makes us unable to express our confidence, our skills and ourselves.
Self validation is anti-dote to toxic shame. Being ok with being weird, stupid and non confident, being ok with mistakes and flaws and embarrassing moments - which are natural part of social life. I would go in direction of self-love and being find with being weird and different. Groupthink and herd mentality are toxic. Conforming to social norms is abnormal and can lead to Milgram Experiment. With accepting social anxiety as alarm system we can allow ourselves to react to abuse without drama, explosions or ignoring the abuse. When we love ourselves we will be able to make healthier decisions in life, we won't feel shame , and we will not be governed by panic and influenced by what other people think or approve of ourselves.
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I would try tackling toxic shame instead. Accepting not being calm, accepting me hating small talk, self validation rather than chewing on safety defense mechanisms we learned as kids to protect us from abuse and trauma.
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People pleasing is effect of trauma. It is not personal choice. It is not something you can change by press of the button. You cannot stop it by understanding.
Some people people please as agenda - it is narcissistic and Machiavellian tool to manipulate other people. For example Trump pretending to care for people while it is obvious he is narcissist and has not empathy for others at all.
All other normal people develop people pleasing as safety mechanism when being exposed to narcissistic abuse in childhood. It is painful hypnosis so your logical explanations such as Your happiness and feeling good - will not work.
People pleasing is being hypnotized into subservience , where you ignore good people and you focus on bad and negative and helping and fixing hysterical people (narcissists and borderliners).
It is not about correcting people pleasing. You need to realize it is only a branch of trauma tree. You prune it, 3 more will spring up. Narcissism is illness and it has detrimental effect on psyche - instead of pathologizing victims of narcissistic abuse, the focus should be on manipulative people who are creating chaos - but that would also mean tackling Republicans, corporations, Epsteins and other psychopaths, molesters.
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People pleasing is effect of trauma. It is not personal choice, it is not something you stop at the press of the button. It is not that you can build fake person, put on a mask - ignore or stifle it. This narcissistic method will create mental illness long term.
Toxic shame is the cause of people pleasing. And we remove toxic shame by loving ourselves and accepting ourselves. This means being ok with being stupid, believing I am inept, believing I am unworthy - that I validate this as effect of being exposed to narcissistic abuse and do not fight it. Once I stop fighting with myself, this will reflect in outer world - thus I will not seek approval and validation from other people. I will validate myself.
I see ignoring and pretending you are not bothered by other people as immature ego defense mechanism. You ignore it, but the act of noticing it is reaction. You still react to other people opinion and their criticism and judgement.
With self-validation I can accept my panic and fears and anxiety - and I can start to block narcissistic people instead of accepting their abuse.
If I pathologize being scared - this is toxic shame. Judgement of somebody else is trauma response - this is result of being abused. This is not something you change at the press of button by being aware you are scared of someone's opinion and worried what will other people think. There are people out there that are aggressive, they are narcissistic and they are focused on belittling others. If I think other people are not important enough to care about them - I will not form healthy relationships with them. I will either fawn to them or I will be afraid of them. I will not be on par with other people. This is something Gary is not mentioning. We are all on par - there is no superior or inferior. No one is better or worse. He is like Jordan Peterson, there is a lot of narcissism in his mentality. A lot of toxic shame, vulgarities that are common in Russia - this is why Russia and Balkans are poor countries - because of toxic shame and vulgarities. That is protective mechanism. That is feeling inferior and you try to put on a mask of superiority by acting "strong" and tough, like hooligan. That is mask. That is superior - inferior dynamics. Unhealthy choice that leads to mental instability.
Self validation is the key. Empathy and love to your own feelings and panic will reflect on other people. This means also to ignore aggressive and obnoxious and loud people who are obsessed with superiority complex, vulgarities and toxic masculinity. Interdependence means give and take, allegory of long spoons. Yelling and cursing and mocking and pathologizing trauma response such as people pleasing is take and take. It is narcissism and unhealthy choice in life.
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I find your tips and videos soothing for my PureOCD. I don't have compulsions, but I overthink and try to make sure I am not in danger from potential abuse from people (so I will people please or fawn, or be on lookout what other people think or do that may lead to assault - hypervigilance and chronic worry). Yeah, living with uncertainty. Accepting that Illusion of Control.. We can't control other people nor events. I learned that due to trauma I was programmed to feel guilt and to be responsible for things outside of my control, that I am supposed to prevent and fix other people, their emotions and their problems - and if it happens, that it is my fault automatically. Chronic neglect, toxic shame - this drives my PureOCD intrusive worry loops.
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I no longer see it as struggle.
IT seems that social anxiety is part of Complex trauma and it is part of being HSP. It is a mixture of environmental abuse and genetics. Gabor Mate is excellent source to changing the perspective how we see anxiety. I see it now as natural alarm system, very sensitive one. It is also alarm that we were exposed to toxic environment that hurt us and caused us trauma. We have to learn how to manage it instead of trying to get rid of it manically.
"Sooner or later everyone encounters stressful life experiences, but HSPs react more to such stimulation. If you see this reaction as part of some basic flaw, you intensify the stress already present in any life crisis. This deeper processing of subtle details causes you to consider the past or future more. You "just know" how things got to be the way they are or how they are going to turn out. It can be wrong, but your intuition is right often enough that HSPs tend to be visionaries, more conscientious, cautious and wise people. It is important not to confuse arousal with fear." Elaine Aron "The Highly Sensitive Person"
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Yeah, with social anxiety we don't know our authentic self. We are governed by social anxiety - our decisions, thoughts, actions - are controlled by other people, their potential criticism and emotions of disapproval. As I learned, this is due to trauma. But we never were made aware that we were neglected. We never were aware that we picked up wrong coping mechanisms how to manage and deal with people. We just stick with what worked the best: to flee, run away and to be afraid of people. Some people engage in Fight response and thus they calm their social anxiety - then they become Borderliners. Some decide to build fake strong confident macho persona - then they become Narcissists. Since they do not deal with trauma, they continue to spread trauma to new generations by being rude and aggressive and manipulative to people.
My response was Fawning. I people please and seek approval for anything, this is called trauma bonding and external reference locus of control. Due to toxic shame I export my self worth into other people and my emotions depend on other people, what they approve. This all goes unconscious, I had to learn bout Complex Trauma to learn that social anxiety is reaction to trauma, we get triggered by event and people and situations similar to original trauma - when we were exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when our child brain was unable to process it other than developing toxic shame and immature ego defense mechanisms and cognitive distortions such as personalizations and catastrophizing.
So, the other people are not actually problem. They only trigger our past trauma, lack of love and chronic invalidation. With panic and fears we are not validating ourselves - we try to please other people into peace and validation, that they approve us. Which will never happen, because self love is our job. This is lesson we never learned - and now we are stuck with social anxiety, as mechanism that balance between trauma and triggers of trauma (other people).
Gabor Mate said: The attempt to escape the pain is what creates the pain.
Our attempts to fight and struggle with social anxiety are creating pain. We are at civil war with ourselves, but to us it seems that other people are problem. Nope, it is inside us, we got to accept and validate ourselves, our weakness, our shame, our guilt, our feeling of toxic shame - that we are inept, being afraid of making a fool of ourselves, being embarrassed. When we accept our rejected parts, we'll realize toxic shame is hallucination and that we can love ourselves in full, with mistakes and flaws and anything that we find now embarrassing. That is what third wave of CBT DBT and Humanistic psychology is talking about. That we become our own advice givers and that we own our decisions with mistakes included, instead of seeking approval and validation from people through being afraid of people.
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(22.2.2022)
I learned my inner critic is connected to other people, external reference locus of control. And it goes unnoticed to me - I have no awareness that these thoughts are connected to other people - their negative emotions, their hysteria through screaming and yelling, what will someone say, what will someone criticize, what will someone judge, express temper tantrum about - and this leads my decisions, mostly into inactivity and immobility, withdrawal and isolation.
I pre-emptively do nothing so that no one complaints. I end up with avoidance and social anxiety. But I am totally unaware that other people potential opinion is guiding my decisions. To me it appears as devil on the shoulder, or flashback or trigger or panic symptom. I learned this hidden mechanism of seeking approval and validation, trauma bonding that guides my thought process is connected to Complex Trauma (being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 while growing up).
It goes in so much detail that I would decide not to wear something without me being aware at all that this detailed decision is not because I do not like to wear something due to my personal choice, but in fact it is because actually I am afraid someone will mock, laugh or nag at me for looking weird, stupid or funny. It is like being controlled by external resources - and not being aware this hypnosis decision guidance is taking place at all.
So social anxiety is grotesque - in the same time I am ego-centric due to panic symptoms, but also I am connected to other people to please them and make their life pleasant by me not bothering anyone. In the same time I am selfish for being focused on my panic (literally not seeing life around me and not participating in it - which means not moving in order not to aggravate anxiety and fears) and selfless for being focused on other people needs and wishes and needs and other people comfort (modulating my behaviour and voice not to make other people angry and violent - which means doing nothing, not moving by checking inner critic that is connected to potential or real external critic and criticism). It is limbo state of nowhere to go, being stuck.
Yeah, as you said in video - it is about not loving and validating myself due to internalized toxic shame.
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This is such important topic! I learned this is connected to trauma and toxic shame and social anxiety, codependency. It is not something we can change by press of button, it is not easy.
Being pushover is connected to childhood trauma (Complex Trauma), being exposed to narcissistic abuse, relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process it other than people pleasing and obeying and being subservient due to internalized toxic shame (belief I am inept, weird and stupid for making all these natural mistakes).
I see that people are klutzes, they will take advantage of people who are subservient, they will rarely stop and think why this person is to nice, people are selfish, they will follow their needs and urges and rarely think about other person who is giving and giving. It is not because people are bad or evil, most people never grew up out of being totally ego-centric, final stage of growing up. So I see it as tango. Pushover is not the only element in the story. IF someone is fawning - other people who are taking advantage are also traumatized too - they never grew up, too.
People pleasers feel toxic shame, that is motor for being pushover. So, telling stop it will not work - it will have counter effect - it will increase toxic shame. Toxic shame is message that you are wrong by default, that there is something horribly wrong with you. As I said, people pleasing is trauma response, it is not trait, personality or choice. It is hypnosis. It is learned helplessness.
What we know about trauma is that it is treated by information, by learning about it - so that we remove guilt and shame for being pushover. Then, the next step is building self worth, so that toxic shame dissolves. Toxic shame is hallucination - as you said, we are all equal. Superiority is form of inferiority.
Broken people, traumatizes people are stuck in superiority and inferiority complex. With self love and self validation we start to see ourselves on par with others, and this naturally dissolves being pushover and fawning as trauma response to triggers.
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"What could you do in full capacity?"
What if you can't reach it due to any reason? The video is misleading and it is actually toxically shaming.
We never choose less what we possible can. People always care what other people think - even when they say the otherwise. No one likes to be away - all people rely on resources from others, paradoxically even when isolated. Your home is build by other people, it is not your own work. Your clothes are provided by labour force of others, it is not your own work. So we are all doing and we try to achieve the best naturally.
Sorry, this video is Waste of time. Wrong information is like being stuck in labyrinth and wrong information tells you that you fly or swim through it. It confuses you, waste your time and energy - and helps you with nothing.
People do not take actions due to fear of criticism which is connected to trauma and toxic shame. It is not because of "lack of discipline".
You cannot stop this hidden socially anxious fears by press of the button. You change it by being humble and self love and self validation. Wrong information, helps nothing and it adds up to toxic shame, more inactivity. Just like Jordan Peterson advice and his statements - it is all Machiavellian marketing ploy to sell books and finance quacks who talk nonsense not based on reality. It is exploiting people's need to find self validation and approval. Toxic narcissistic shame!
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Yeah, finding what works for you. That we become our own guidance and our own GSP system - without seeking approval from other people.
I learned that the responses we have are something we need to take a closer look. It turns out that our responses are dysfunctional. Usually it involve pathologizing out panic symptoms, and that is what we learned in childhood, to pretend we are ok when we are scared. That we pretend to be strong when we are feeling bad. Now as adults, We are responding, we are reacting. That is problem, we have triggers. That is why I see social anxiety as part of complex trauma - we were traumatized by something and now we are finding ways to react it, we are stuck in wrong kind of reactions. The point is that we do not react anymore, that we find out we lack self-validation. Once we are ok totally fine with ourselves, that we love ourselves - is anti dote to trauma. And then we no longer will react to fears and panic, and triggers anymore in panic mode as we do now.
I find Gabor Mate talking about this in dept. He says that our personality is actually our response to trauma. It is about becoming authentic, which means not hiding anymore, not rejecting our fears and panic. Being ok with being wrong, mistaken, and anything we currently do not like about ourselves: "weak", stupid, weird or any label we hate about ourselves.
I see when we are at peace inside, other people will not bother us anymore in such intensity as it is with social anxiety.
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(23.2.2022)
Amazing message - it is very helpful for those with social anxiety and fawning issues. I see however from my socially anxious and avoidaint perspective some issues that may be detrimental to me when in panic and fawn mode: 1) if you are intelligent, more sensitive than most people - a lot of things will bother you. If you choose to speak honestly what you find wrong, and with more intelligence and deep sensitivity - you will see more things that are wrong around you - you will get annoying and people will see you as nagging and criticizing all the time. So in this case, it is good to curb your enthusiasm and learn when to talk honestly. Which is tricky part. To find balance between people pleasing others and warning/alarming and noticing what is wrong. This part often gets murky. 2) Dunning Kruger effect - tells us that people with lack of knowledge and competence tend to be loudest. This can result in bad decisions and again - being annoying to others. This part also requires curb your enthusiasm - and introspection - to evaluate how much competent I am to talk and express my opinion. Again, this part is also murky in real life. If I have issues with social fears, I will tend to not express my opinions and I will conclude that my needs and views are not so relevant. What if Nikola Tesla was ashamed into toxic shame for his quirks and perks - we would not have all the scientific benefits today. Also, what if Kafka's friends never published his work after his death - we would not know how brilliant Kafka was.
I see your video as answer to this chronic fear of coming off as annoyance.
You are telling us: Express yourself anyway. It is your life, your truth - say it out loud. Especially if it is something I have a lot of personal experience about and something I have pondered from many different angles and multiple dimensions, so it is not tunnel vision ego-centric. I can say it out without hysteria; Without explosions, without drama, without wars. Without evil agenda, without secret goal to hurt someone or cause them pain - there is no reason why not to talk, even when people disapprove. Even at the cost of being embarrassed and being told you are wrong. As you said: "Stating opinion honestly without changing if other person disagrees."
I love tip about people who are argumentative is not attractive. This topic is very important, relevant and helpful for people who are dealing with toxic shame and social anxiety and avoidance, who were abused into silence and self-censorship.
"If person can get you worked up and argumentative so easily, that is not very attractive. It shows that you're really reactive person and you're not really well grounded and secure with your beliefs." Yes, that reactivity is due to toxic shame, not believing in your beliefs - so you depend on other people to provide truth which may irritate you, so you engage in drama because you do not believe deep in yourself inside, your own worth and your experience and your knowledge. So we can conclude that person who appears "strong" by being loud, throwing temper tantrums, smear campaign and being aggressive and rude - is actually very insecure inside and superiority is only a mask to hide their inferiority.
I learned that both people who appear superior and people who are "people pleasers" and fawn to others (talking from my own experience) - believe due to trauma experience - that there is absolute truth and authority is the only resource of this absolute truth. However philosophers have proved that there is no absolute truth (unless being unkind or violent as something wrong) - the world is dualistic, there is yin yang. Spinoza said no matter how many times you slice something, there are always two sides. This means, even people who are wrong - it is correct point for them due to ignorance or agenda. In their ignorance or pursuit of some hidden exploitation they build themselves narrative that seems correct and as such it will confirm itself against any evidence. We can tell our view, but their delusion will not break apart until they get critical information - which as well may be the one we provide if we choose to speak. This works vice versa. I may get false impression and other people may provide me clarity - if I choose to be open to listen to them.
People who were traumatized feel thus deep toxic shame and they distrust themselves - so they try to resolve this guilt for not having truth by: they either build false persona which is very sensitive to criticism and opposing view OR they seek approval and validation from others to provide them with truth, which also puts you in position of being extremely sensitive to criticism - and since there are a lot of people, there are a lot of opposing opinions to satisfy and serve.
As you said in the video, solution is to have intrinsic locus of control which means to believe in yourself.. not false mask persona neither external reference locus of control.
I wish someone explained this to me before :D This topic is something I was struggling for so long, and I could not find anyone to explain it why am I so afraid to speak up, what would happen if I do and why other people appear to rude and dangerous by simple words of disagreement - where their anger emotions I wrongly interpreted as sign I am wrong - and I would self-censor myself. I could not discern when to talk and when to give up talking - I would lump it all together in silence and shutting up.
I understand now that narcissists live in fantasy world and it is useless to argue further if they clearly deny my opinion without actually listening to me. This does not mean to never state my opposing opinion in the first place. And some people need time for new information to sink in.
You've done amazing job. This topic is connected to people pleasing issues, whereas a lot of YT videos are about shaming the pushover for being "weak" while in the same time no one explains what are the steps how to fend your views neither there is information about aggressive people with superiority complex who silence others into silence. Your video therefore is like nurturing oasis in desert of You tube space of useless and wrong info. Thank you for vid!
"Don't manufacture conflict" "Remove your filters" "When in doubt, just say it." - love it!
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This is very interesting to me. I actually was focused on my symptoms. Never ever think or considered that other people may caused something wrong that reflected in me. Due to fawning I see others as gods and everything they say is ultimate truth and command. So their abuse or rudeness is justified from this perspective, their aggression is normalized. So, it actually helps me to zoom off from my symptoms onto realization that it was not my fault, it was not my blame and it is not my guilt - that part gives me permission to feel more confident to express myself. Otherwise I believe I am inept and other people are superior and without flaws, especially those people who trigger me: loud obnoxious and aggressive ones, while I am only problem.
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(24.2.2022)
Their irrational response is something that is making me avoid people in general. It is the root cause of my social anxiety panic symptoms - I expect that explosive irrational reactions from all people, so I isolate and withdraw myself from society.
"Is this somebody I need to continue to have any interaction at all?" Yep, this is something I never allowed myself to do. Even in cyber space - I never used up block and ignore options. I thought I am automatically wrong due to toxic shame, and other people are correct, especially when they are angry, loud and violently aggressive. I would avoid and run away but I would never sever connection with difficult people and I would observe them as gods, while I am inferior and wrong by default.
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(28.2.2022)
"It's really important not to confuse temperament with diagnosis. It's a matter of figuring out where do you fit. What part of the puzzle do you fit in and where are you most comfortable."
Yep, now let's put this in trauma aspect as well as dysfunctional (toxic) environment. Trauma sets us up for external reference locus of control (regarding other people as witholders of ultimate truth about anything - whatever others say it is automatically true). And now imagine what happens when you are surrounded by people who diagnose you because of your temperament. And nag and complain all the time. Imagine what happens with this mix thrown together. I see outer, external environment, external factor as important influence over our thoughts and decisions - whereas trauma sets us up to seek approval and validation from others through trauma bonding. I would look ways to raise self worth to break trauma bond and start making better and healthier decisions which may entail breaking the contacts or minimizing the contacts with someone who is invalidating others.
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"Where is social anxiety you can bet also there is narcissism. Many narcissists have it and many cause it." Yeah! This was shocking discovery for me. I was convinced that social anxiety is "reserved" for empaths. I was shocked to realize at reddit main social anxiety group how many people attack others and enjoy in hurting others. With social anxiety you fear people, you do not engage in conflict with them, especially not when you discuss general theme. But I understand where this resentment comes from. It is because narcissists believe their false mask is real - and they perceive as severe injury whatever contradicting information may expose their true self - even though information is neutral to others.
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"I really try to keep myself out of those situations."
That avoidance is double binding. I do it even in form of fawning - it allows me not to run however I gave up on my independence and serve other people to fix them and keep them calm so that they do not throw drama and temper tantrums, thus they control me - without me being aware of it. So, If we stay in situations - we get hurt. If we leave - we will ruminate and cut ourselves from the world. In both cases we will personalize and blame ourselves and feel toxic shame - being inept to handle and manage life. Being stuck is part of trauma. Instead of exploring and experimenting, we stay in one place and overthink how to appear perfect so that we never attract criticism and sarcasm. But this is mission impossible. Whatever we say or do - it will be embarrassing and it will attract attention in form of negative comment. So I see better way to explore why we hang onto toxic shame - belief we are unworthy, and what ways can we break trauma bonding with others - seeing other people as gods and witholders of ultimate truth. When we realize others who appear superior are inferior with presentable mask - we can find our own voice and express ourselves and make decisions based on our own validation - not doing things by expecting others to approve of.
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Social anxiety is fear from criticism and negative evaluation, criticism from others - by definition.
We can divide two types of people who suffer from social anxiety: 1) narcissists and 2) others. Both types stem from narcissistic abuse in childhood - toxic environment that was shaming, there was relentless shame and criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria that child brain was unable to process other than internalizing toxic shame. Toxic shame is default core inner belief that I am inept, unworthy, stupid and weird. Toxic shame is hallucination, implanted by unrecognized mentally ill people around us (aggressive, sarcastic, violent and abusive people around us).
Narcissists put false persona to overcompensate their toxic shame. They want to over-compensate inferiority complex (toxic shame) - belief that other people are superior because they appear confident in life. So narcissists will feel social anxiety - fear from criticism that exposes wound inside that they are unworthy - through acting and pretending to be super-confident. For narcissists, the main goal is to become better and ideal so that other approve and validate them. Toxic shame exports self worth onto other people - other people must approve and validate you, to think and say amazing things about you - you feel good only when others approve you. When they don't - you feel social anxiety. That is unhealthy because the only way to achieve this urge to get approval from others - leads to abusing others. This is how social anxiety is spread to new generations. Self improvement is based on approval from others. Chasing excellence, improving yourself is not based on your own validation - it is based on other people to admire you. So that others will be amazed by you- and then you no longer feel anxiety. This is highly dysfunctional. It is because you will reject parts of yourself that you label as weak and sissy. Usually these parts are necessary for building relationships and interdependence. You will not feel confident - you will over-compensate and with time you will no longer choose what means to achieve this super-confidence. This will lead to narcissistic abuse - once you don't get recognition for your super self-improvement you will become resentful. Information you put in your head will be used to destroy others and you will build fantasy world inside you, like Putin - where you will label weak others and destroy them for thinking differently than you. So narcissism leads to criminal behaviour and destruction of empathy.
On the other hand, there are others who feel social anxiety due to relentless narcissistic abuse. They try to people please others. They feel inferior - however they do not seek validation and approval through building fake false persona. There is toxic shame and this means seeking approval and validation from others - and oppose to narcissists the validation is attempted to be achieved by fawning and being pushover, codependency and trying to fix others and keep others calm. This way we attract narcissists who parasite over our need to please them and we can be easily controlled by abusive people - they simply throw temper tantrum and we do whatever they want in order to avoid drama and explosions. Unlike narcissists, this group is healthy because there is still empathy inside and there is need to connection and relationship with others. The healing starts with realization there is trauma - and fawning is default reaction to perceived or real danger. Self acceptance and self validation is the key to deal with social anxiety here: to accept you being weak, stupid and sissy. The paradox is once we accept ourselves full - we can change. We can self improve and seek excellence - not because of other people to validate and admire us - but because we desire to be healthy for our own sake and our own validation.
Diplomacy, connection, interdependence, acceptance and validation is healthy. Nagging, complaining, resentment, criticizing - is toxic and it leads to abuse and trauma.
If you seek self improvement and excellence to impress others and as a way to avoid other people's criticism - that is narcissism and building fake, false persona.
WE can never satisfy other people. There will always be criticism, there will always be mocking no matter what we do and no matter how high we achieve perfection. What we can do it become tolerant to criticism, to find functional ways to deter them: I do not agree with you, and end of discussion. If we try to be confident - we will never be confident. Trying to be confident and amazing is part of inferiority complex, it is called over-compensation. When we do this - we allow other people to control us without being aware of it. We are governed by other people's approval and validation. That is unhealthy and it leads to mental illness in long term.
When we accept ourselves as we are, with flaws and mistakes and validate ourselves as we are - we will break codependency of seeking admiration and validation from others. Then, we can self-improve and seek excellence - because of ourselves, not because others will approve, admire and validate us. That is healing from social anxiety. Social anxiety is warning system, it is not something you pathologize and overcome. By pathologizing parts of ourselves, we are abusing ourselves - and soon we will abuse others. When we accept and validate ourselves - we will tolerate other people - and social anxiety will naturally wear off, their opinion will no longer matter - whether it is positive approving or negative critical.
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Social anxiety is alarm system, it signals when someone is dangerous. It is not evil. It is normal to fear what other people will think of us. This way we connect with others, we empathize with them - that for example we do not hurt them with our words or actions. Problem starts when we are traumatized and been exposed to narcissistic abuse in childhood. This creates trauma and we are unable to discern what is important, so we will start to observe other people as gods, and witholders of ultimate truth, whatever they say is truth automatically and we never doubt them. This happens due to relentless criticism and exposure to adult hysteria that child brain was unable to process unless internalizing toxic shame - which is ingrained belief to be unworthy and inept to manage life.
Therefore social anxiety is problem when we ruminate and when we care what other people think and consequently panic symptoms which are extremely uncomfortable.
Exposure thus will not help heal social anxiety. It will lead to 2 dysfunctional way to manage social anxiety: 1) become narcissists, build fake false persona and build superiority complex by over-compensating and abusing others through sarcasm and attacking others when they have different opinion or 2) by hiding, avoidance and fawning in order to people please others. Both reactions are reaction to trauma. Trauma is problem here, not social anxiety. Complex trauma is problem along with toxic shame.
Therefore, watch the feeling and relax will not work in social situations when you meet narcissist and someone angry and with drama and temper tantrums - since these caused social anxiety in the first place. When you dissociate from your feelings, this is escaping reality and it is part of immature ego defense mechanism. Emotion will not run out, it is trapped inside our body. It will not burn off, it will only get suppressed - and it will explode in critical situations in the future, people and events similar to original trauma.
Instead, I would try to self validate myself- that I accept my panic and anxiety. That I observe is as ability to deeply process reality than most of people. I can see it in neutral instead of trying to come up with rituals as reaction to anxiety. Any ritual as reaction to anxiety leads to PureOCD, intrusive worry and chronic worry and hypervigilance. When I accept myself fully, I will accept others too - so they will slowly start appearing scary and dangerous. I will be able to warn and speak the truth, being honest and objective and transparent with them, voice out the elephant in the room - which will repel narcissistic people - they dislike truth. So instead of attracting them by having unprocessed fears inside me - with talking and being genuine - I will naturally repel them away from me.
We are dealing here with trauma. Trauma is lack of validation and love. If we ignore our symptoms - it is still trauma. Instead of invalidation - the correct path is validation and love.
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Social anxiety is part of Complex Trauma. We were exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria in times when child brain was unable to process it other than developing internalized toxic shame. Toxic shame is inner core belief we are unworthy and inept to manage life. So - when we do not tackle the trauma - we create two dysfunctional ways to deal with trauma: 1) become narcissists and build fake false persona by showing off that we do not care what other people think. This way we destroy empathy inside us and we become monsters ourselves. In this way we prolong abuse onto the next generation. It destroys relationships and leads to criminal behaviour in long term - because you will still seek approval and validation from others. or 2) fawning and people pleasing -we try to build relationships by being subservient to others. We believe others are gods and they withold the ultimate truth about anything in life, so we never doubt them. This leads to trauma bonding and Stockholm Syndrome.
In both cases we never doubt ourselves, our own thoughts - and this makes us ego-centric. This leads to tunnel vision and fantasy world - it is one sided thinking, similar to USSR propaganda - and can end up with severe depression, chronic worry and hypervigilance. Other people in both cases control us through their emotions and approval and their validation or invalidation of us. This is called external reference locus of control.
The solution is in building self worth. To accept and love myself with all mistakes and weaknesses and panic. That whatever I do is for me only and for my own validation. This is called internal locus of control. Whatever I say or do or think - there will always be criticism from others, there will always be someone who will mock us and disprove us. When we have self worth - we stick with our opinion and conclusions. If I am not violent, it I have no evil agenda, if I do not wish to harm or hurt other people - and if I analyze every issue to the core from all sides and all dimensions and all angles - there is no reason to distrust myself. No one holds the ultimate truth. That is what philosophers found in 2000 years. Socrates talked about it 2000 years ago. So, we are allowed to gather all information there is and stand by ourselves - no matter what other people think say or do against it.
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With abuse and being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process it other than internalizing toxic shame and learned helplessness, as described in video. We are trained like circus animals or Pavlovian dogs in fearing criticism from others - so we can react in two dysfunctional ways: 1) narcissism - building false fake persona that we explain as self improvement and Jordan Peterson toxic masculinity OR 2) fawning - and people pleasing in order to avoid other people temper tantrum. Both ways are dysfunctional and they prolong social anxiety even though it seems to us it is helping us. We are programmed to make wrong decisions. Healthy decision is when we base it on our self worth, when we do not seek external validation and admiration and approval from other people. That means being authentic, honest and genuine without need or urge to hold resentment and need to criticize other people. When we accept and validate ourselves, we will tolerate different people. When we are honest we will voice out the elephant in the room - and thus we will make better and healthier decisions which may entail breaking contact with toxic people and moving away from toxic influences and toxic environment - instead of trying to fix others and seek their approval.
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People pleasing is trauma response. This is not something you change by press of the button. It is rooted in relentless criticism 24/7, being exposed to adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process it other than developing toxic shame - deep core belief I am inept, unworthy. Therefore toxic shame is main focus for people pleasing. With people pleasing you do not see other as competition. You see them superior. This is due to toxic shame. Toxic shame is belief that I am unable to make decisions. Superiority is part of inferiority. People who seem super confident - they just act. It is all false, fake persona. People are on par. There is no better or worse. IT is all matter of perspective. When I have self worth I accept my flaws and mistakes and I do not seek approval and validation from others. That is key in dealing with people pleasing - people pleasing will wear off by itself when self worth is inside me. People pleasing is dysfunctional mechanism that helped us to survive in childhood when we were exposed to unrecognized untreated mentally ill people. With self worth I can build and make better decisions that are in align with my true genuine honest persona. Not other people or fake persona.
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"being a people pleaser ain't going to save you and you have to errored your confident for yourself"
Shocking part of psychology is that this thinking is part of people pleasing. You simply abuse yourself and label yourself as error and someone who cannot be saved. So you turn to other people to save you and that other people pinpoint your errors. That is people pleasing at its core.
When you accept yourself as error - and you validate it as trauma response, something that is not your fault - you will stop caring what other people think, explain, validate or invalidate about you - and that is step out from being pushover.
With self worth and acceptance of our flaws and mistakes, we can be paradoxically anything - fearful and people pleasers - but without seeking other approval. People pleasing is also diplomacy and meeting others at half way to get to conclusions and agreement. Also, we can be arrogant and appear arrogant when we stick to our opinion - when we know we are correct and right.
Building fake false persona of someone who never makes errors is part of over-compensations - it is trying to be superior, that is superiority complex. Superiority complex is part of inferiority complex. We are all on par. There are no better or worse people. Psychopaths are the external factor here. People who are evil, unkind and violent. So If I have no evil agenda, if I do not wish ill will and hurt other people - there is nothing wrong. This means that I accept myself as I am - and paradoxically I will start to change, as soon as I break trauma bonding with others, seeking validation and approval from other people and instead when I seek validation inside for myself from myself.
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Any ritual to anxiety leads to PureOCD. Having rituals is natural unnatural response to trauma. I would rather focus on underlying and never processed trauma as driving force that is causing rumination in the first place. Trauma is stuck inside our body and it surfaces as rumination. Also if we are intelligent and HSP, we will naturally over think - I would not pathologize this super ability to observe and see all events and people from multiple points of dimensions and different angles. Pathologizing myself would lead to toxic shame - which will lead to issues such as people pleasing and fawning and seeking other people approval.
I see self worth, self validation and accepting myself as road to mental health. With abuse and being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when we were growing up, we never learned what love and psychological security is. Now we are stuck with trauma and PureOCD - which leads to plethora of dysfunctional conclusions, decisions and actions that are unhelpful. Without love and safety we are unable to think straight. We are in constant state of chronic worry and hypervigilance - where rumination is part of this constant feeling of stress. So along with self acceptance, I would also go with eliminating toxic environment and external factor - being still exposed to relentless criticism now in adulthood by people we chose to hang out with, since we attract narcissists like moth to a flame, being insecure and scared, we are prime targets for manipulators and parasites. With self validation we can start making better life decisions and this naturally calm down toxic rumination and leave healthy analysis with us.
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(1.3.2022)
Social anxiety is part of trauma, it is dysfunctional protective mechanism that child invented to survive narcissistic abuse and unrecognized mentally ill person in midst. If you kill comfort zone, another protective mechanism will become active - usually it will be fawning/people pleasing/suppressing emotions OR hysteria and explosive rage and building narcissistic false persona - which will pass social anxiety onto next generation through abusing them.
Gabor Mate, Peter Levine, DBT, Humanistic psychology tells us that to deal with trauma means accepting yourself and self- validation, which entails accepting your weaknesses and fears - not killing them.
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(2.3.2022)
Exactly! Some people convince themselves they are calm while inside they are not. Some people like to pontificate to others to be calm - that makes them calm, to watch other people not being calm while they are ordering others to be calm.
As long there is reaction to rudeness, there is something that triggers us to original trauma. Reaction can have soothing effects, but it is still reaction. This is something Freud called mature and immature ego defense mechanisms. It is still defense mechanism.
We have to look into what is triggering us. As long as we are triggered, we are being controlled by others, by their emotions. Usually this will go in fawning and people pleasing direction, shutting up to evil people, not knowing how to self-regulate and act naturally - which leads to being blocked and not moving or moving away from our dreams and away from forming healthy relationships - due to fears we will not be able to built healthy environment.
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"how to handle them by taking action" But think about it - if you are able to think your way out, you would already be out. Also, it means you are basing your actions on your anxiety and fears. We are reacting to anxiety and fear. That is the problem. We can handle our anxiety by action, sure! However the fact that you are having triggers is the issue. Why you react to triggers and flashbacks anyways? There had to be some trauma when growing up.
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Usually - it is because we were exposed to unrecognized mentally ill person in our midst - constant complaining and nagging 24/7, and being exposed to adult hysteria when child brain was unable to react to it other than internalizing toxic shame and having guilt - that now we carry into adulthood. Toxic shame and guilt, imposed by toxic environment is now guiding our actions, that is problem because that is not healthy. In long term, when you have accumulated and unresolved trauma - it will come out to surface as physical illness or in form of outburst similar to Putin - attacking another country for the sake of Crusading - Putin therefore is taking action to resolve his triggers - but it is obvious that these actions are not healthy nor normal - and he is abusing others around him.
Freud discovered that reaction to trauma - anxiety and fears and panic can be immature or mature. Mature ego defense mechanism is: "sublimation, humor, anticipation, and suppression". These are more healthier than immature defense - but it is still defense.
Defense means we are in chronic worry, we are in hypervigilance still. PureOCD tells us when we develop routines as reaction to fears and anxiety - no matter how soothing these actions and reactions are to us - they will build up more anxiety in the long term.
Instead of "taking actions" - the first step would be to accept being scared and panicked and observing social anxiety as neutral, as deep process stimuli to outside events and external environment. Then the second step is self-regulation. With DBT's self validation emotional regulation we tackle trauma inside - and then we will be able to take actions based on our dreams, needs, environment in natural way - not as reaction to anxiety and fears. So our actions will be based on our self worth inside, not other people nor thinking what other people think of us.
When we have social anxiety, our brain is switched off and it goes into lizard brain - this is called amygdala hijacking. When you take actions to deal with this, you are still inside lizard brain, you are not yourself. The point is that we are authentic, not fake. The point is that we are guided by our inner voice, our common sense, by our super ego - not by reactions of other people, real or imagined. The point is that we make our own decisions and that we manage life on our values, not by external reference locus of control where we would act by reacting to outside events.
"Emotional self-regulation or emotion regulation is the ability to respond to the ongoing demands of experience with the range of emotions in a manner that is socially tolerable and sufficiently flexible to permit spontaneous reactions as well as the ability to delay spontaneous reactions as needed."
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"What you hear is criticism. That is your trauma brain thinking. Trauma brain – if you see your own flaws, it will break you, normal for person with history of neglect" This is interesting for me because of social anxiety. At the root of social anxiety is fear of criticism and negative evaluation. For some unknown reason, social anxiety and trauma are not connected to official medical resources. The experts, gurus and mentors try to heal symptoms, but they do not understand Complex Trauma being hovering above social anxiety, being the cause of social anxiety and avoidance. I tried to explain this at the main reddit group - but I got negative response from people who are not socially anxious and they kicked me out. Some people abuse socially anxious people as a way to dominate over others who are silent and scared, and this can be seen at reddit main group. Then the people with true social anxiety are actually crap fitting in community where they are suppose to be honest and authentic - only to be scared and subject to devaluation by people in the online community who do not have social anxiety. For example one girl talked about mobbing at the work and how she feels panic for being mocked - and one "expert" commented that she suppose to work harder and try to remember her orders in order to be perfect - and thus avoid sarcasm and mocking from her colleague. I tried to explain her it is trauma and she is ok as she is, that the person who mocks her is mentally unstable - yet she thanked everyone there, she was not able to discern unhealthy advice that told her that she must be perfect and not make mistake, and that she should accept mocking and abuse as something normal = crap fitting advice. The guy explained her that social anxiety is over-reaction (which is true) - however his argument is that with social anxiety we tend to shove people off and label them as toxic - everyone and thus we create world where everyone is enemy. He said that we should accept rude and bad behaviour as normal. I tried to argue his point - but he himself was unable to follow his own advice - so he reported me and moderators never looked the conversation - they simply kicked me out for arguing with him, even though I never cursed or was rude to him in any way. Now socially anxious people are stuck with this person who is giving them advice to crap fit, while the voice of opposition is muted. That is social anxiety and trauma - the circumstances get constructed in such way that we are trapped in cage of false information and fake people who are giving us wrong advice - and this is problem too because with trauma and social anxiety we are unable to trust our own judgement and we seek external reference locus of control: that other people explain us reality and give us direction how to lead our lives - where due to toxic shame we do not believe in our own resources and our own common sense. This leads to crap fitting : because we are not lead by our own judgement - other people cannot know what is best for us, they do not know our history nor our perceptions - no one can hold ultimate truth about reality. If we are not unkind or violent - anything else is allowed, there is no one-sided thinking in healthy environment.
"Discernment means judgment, it means being able to tell good from bad, right from wrong. When it is just me, when should I get away from someone. Tell the truth. Ask questions when confused, ask for clarification." I realized this is connected to self worth. With toxic shame we don't have self worth inside us. Then with toxic shame we don't know what is right and wrong - toxic shame decides this and other people - other people's approval real or imagined, which is unclear because there are a lot of people out there, lot of opinions to satisfy. Also, fear from asking question - is trauma, since we were mocked, punished when we asked questions and when we expressed ourselves. That is closed circuit of trauma: I do not know what I value, and this validation is connected and depends on other people - who are constantly moody and constantly changing their decisions.
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@1 Life I am not topic here.
When you have actions to social anxiety - it is reaction. You allow yourself to be guided by other people - real or imagined. Social anxiety is fear from other people's criticism, real or imagined. Mostly, people react to fear by being immobile and inactivity. So it may seem that the opposite is healthy and anti-dote: to take action. However with trauma, anxiety and panic, this does not work that way. You taking actions against fears is reaction. That will never lead to inner peace and being present in the moment - because you are focused on other people, their possible criticism and invalidation.
Social anxiety is trauma. We have been traumatized. There is no action necessary. We need to find out what happened, and how can we self-regulate. With trauma and social anxiety - it means we developed plethora of actions to deal and to react to trauma. Most of them are unhealthy.
The desire and urge to be calm and happy is also trauma response. It is ok and normal to be tense and unhappy - if the outer circumstances are tense and unhappy. When you do not allow yourself to grieve, you keep trauma stuck inside your body. We are still being guided by anxiety and trauma - even when we feel urge to be calm. That will lead us to addictions. Anything we take to sooth the unresolved pain (trauma) will lead to addictions. In most cases, conclusions we will make will be distorted, since trauma means plethora of cognitive distortions and thinking errors.
This is very complex matter, you cannot resolve is by ignoring and suppressing and trying to be happy and calm on force. Emotional self-regulation and self-validation and self- acceptance is the only way to deal with trauma and navigate through social anxiety. Anything else is PureOCD rituals which will leads us to chronic worry and hypervigilance - thus we will never be calm, without inner peace and we will never be present in the moment - because our rituals will make us react to real or imagined events similar to original trauma.
I suggest works of Peter Levine and Gabor Mate for all those who deal with social anxiety and are seeking inner peace.
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BPD are half baked narcissists. They use empathy as agenda to hurt and exploit others. The only thing that separate BPD and narcisisism is ability to listen others and bonding with others, which is more dangerous than narcissism. IT is because you miss red flags and you do not understand why this person is rude and friendly in the same time - so you never cut contact with them. With narcissists they are easily recognized as toxic, they are upfront pushy and invalidating. Whereas BPD is confusing since you never know who they really are. They come off as sensitive and hurt, while in the same time they are extremely aggressive and cause pain to others by exploiting information they sucked out of people.
CPTSD is fear, living in chronic worry and hypervigilance through avoidance and isolation, whereas BPD reacts to these with temper tantrums, drama and attacking others, nagging and complaining.
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"Finding your voice" Yeah, I agree. Self expression is opposite from invalidation and neglect and abuse that caused our trauma. Shutting up and self-censorship is result of being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process it in any other way than internalizing toxic shame and developing immature ego defense mechanisms such as introjection, imitating and serving toxic people and depending what they think and what they criticize. Anti-dote to people pleasing is self-expression. Self expression is having self worth inside us, meaning we choose to discern good and evil, instead of relying on other people to explain us what we should think, do or act.
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Yeah, totally agree - labels disable. But it is necessary evil. Without labels we cannot shine a light on objects that lie in the dark. Labels are form of light- however we are still trapped in Plato's cave and shadows on the wall are what we see when we shine a light on something - when we put label on something.
In my case, I always thought I have social anxiety: it perfectly aligned with definition of social trauma: avoiding other people due to panic symptoms and fear from criticism and invalidation. That is label. It describes plethora of scary and mysterious feelings and emotions. However - I learned with time that there is also HSP - which means sensitive people process reality in deeper stimuli manner - that may be labelled by "normal" people as over thinking and something negative. Instead as Elaine Aron said in her book, we can look at over.arousal as neutral. She mentioned pathologizing ourselves by putting labels on ourselves imposed by society. This labeling created additional anxiety and neurosis.
And the correct label helps us to gain access to information that we otherwise would not look onto. For example, with social anxiety official medical information - classical CBT explains that social anxiety may be rooted in trauma, however it is not important to look at trauma - that we focus on symptoms of panic instead. I listened to their advice -and ended up with people pleasing and being pushover, ignoring red flags and stayed in toxic environment because Classical CBT forces us to expose ourselves to fears. Totally wrong advice. Exposure helps - but when we face our true fears. Someone who is abusive and toxic - it is normal to avoid, it would be madness to stay with them just for the sake to "normalize" ourselves to abuse. This ends up with learned helplesness, and that is what happened to me, when I listened to labels by experts who dont know that social anxiety is part of CPTSD.
So in my case, CPTSD actually helpled me to realize helpful concepts such as fawning. Whereas I would see fawning as something shameful and mysterious, now I know it is trauma bonding and normal reaction to abnormal events and abnormal people. CPTSD helped me to learn about amygdala hijacking and emotional dysregulation - which social anxiety never mentions.
Labels are serving us as help and guidance, but in the same time, they are limiting us, because we tend to ignore information that is outside of the box. I see this phenomena in society too - as group thinking and herd mentality.
So I agree with this video message, It is good to mention that labels even though are helpful - that they can be limiting too.
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As polar opposite to Jordan Peterson, Dr. Gabor Maté is on the target. Dr. Gabor Maté correctly describes phenomena of trauma through self-validation. Whereas Jordan Peterson is giving instruction through lens of toxic shame and unprocessed trauma - which makes him very dangerous, since he is not helping people with his advice , he is making things worse.
"Suppression of authenticity is coping mechanism" That is true. We learned wrong mechanisms when growing up as reaction to trauma. it is not our fault, it is not something you can change by hysteria or drama or narcissistic false fake mask that Jordan Peterson tries us to learn how to make. Instead of pretending to be strong macho - we accept ourselves as we are, and then build upon our true self. If we reject something inside us - for example being "weak" - we will also reject parts of ourselves that will help us to connect with others and form relationships. No one like to be with someone who is constantly complaining and nagging or throwing drama and hysteria - as a way to appear strong to others and to gain approval and admiration from others. Instead of this Jordan Peterson trauma advice, Dr. Gabor Maté is explaining us to be honest and genuine and accept ourselves and to be humble and fragile as a way to be strong. When we accept our flaws and mistakes, no one can hurt us - and that makes us strong. That is paradox. Jordan Peterson is giving toxic instructions instead - he says that we pretend to be monsters and always be in constant chronic worry state and hypervigilance, as a way to appear strong - this leads to anxiety and never-ending trauma.
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2.3.2022 old comments deleted by YT due to sneaky WarnerBros copyright complaints about uploaded CNN news feeds live from Ukraine. it is good that I kept archive of comments!
I was convinced since I am people pleaser that I must be "Strong" and "forceful" all the time, and that people pleasing is always bad. Your explanation makes sense - we are not suppose to be assertive all the time - it really is obnoxious and it turns into self-obsession. The messages I received from people and online is that assertiveness equals being intimidating and practically stubborn.
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Yeah, this was huge discover for me - guilt. It is used as tool to control us. Both by our own cognitive distortions inside us, and toxic environment around us. It really is cleverly disguised, and I think most people use it unwittingly, they are not aware that they are manipulating others. Machiavellians use it definitely on purpose. It can be used in marketing and politics - and if we are not aware of guilt being a tool to control us, we can be taken advantage of and exploited. It is important topic to talk about. Thank you for video.
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4.2.2022
"Caretaking requires incompetency on the part of the person being taken care of. We rescue victims, people who we believe are not capable responsible for themselves." For me, the reason I take burden on myself was fear from aggression, violence and hysteria from other people whom I perceive I must fawn. However I never see it that actually I made them to be incompetent to do the job. I have toxic shame inside me, I feel incompetent - and this is driving force to do more, to prove myself and to others, this drives me to take responsibilities and tasks and thus I rescue others - by trying to cover up and prove I am competent on force, but toxic shame is still inside, core belief I am incompetent to manage life. So realization that I make other people to be incompetent is major discovery. I never see other people as incompetent - because I see other people superior - especially if they yell, scream and throw temper tantrums. I see myself as inferior because I have fears and phobias - of speaking up or physical phobias such as fear of driving - which prove I am incompetent. Driving phobia is connected to road rage and potential of being in situation where someone is aggressive and violent, where I am trapped and unable to run away if the worst happens. So this is huge veil being lifted off, gaze removed from my eyes - that I unconsciously also make other people incompetent by trying to be perfectionist and making myself busy to prove my worthiness. It makes sense - microcosm repeats itself on macrocosm. If I hate myself - I will think other people hate me - and I will end up with social anxiety. If I cannot tolerate parts of myself - I will be annoyed by other people and avoid them. If I can't stand up for myself I will find people who are well spoken and authentic as arrogant and antagonistic.
So if I have toxic shame and feel I am inept without ability to manage life and make decisions - in the same time I will make decisions to prove myself and sooth others - by making other people inept and I will not be aware that other people that I perceive as superior - are not so superior if they cannot handle their emotions, if they can't regulate their own emotions.
So now I realize that superiority look at people is false - that people who are acting confident by being rude to other people - are actually incompetent and inept. I could not see this fact before, this information is eye opening. From my fears and anxiety - I believe that other people are superior, strong, competent - whereas in the same time - I am inept, stupid, weak, loser and basket case.
As I know narcissistic dynamics and projecting - this means that when I feel toxic shame - when I feel inept, stupid, incompetent, loser and weird - actually this is implanted into me, it means I am in toxic environment. If someone communicates this onto me (for example telling me that I am over-sensitive or that I over-react when I warn someone about their rudeness) - actually they are feeling toxic shame also. They are feeling inept and incompetent. This is mind blowing. From my people pleasing and fawning habits that I learned as default thinking - I never see other people as incompetent and stupid and wrong and loser. This is something I never admit to myself, especially to arrogant and difficult, stubborn people - people who pontificate others to be "strong", "macho" - are actually weak and extremely injured inside for having this need to be superior. Before, I would resort to resentment and pouting - as it was described in the book - but I never see that these people have the exact toxic shame as I have inside me.
Without this information - I remained in my room, I developed social anxiety and avoidance, fear from hysterical and violent people and feeling other people anger and their temper tantrums. This limited me in life - to speak up for myself and to defend myself or simply to brush other's narcissistic smear campaign - I would try to analyze what happened when someone is rude and angry. I would try to solve it via intrusive worries. It never occurred to me that these people who bug me and confuse me are not strong nor competent. They feel the same shame feelings, deep core incapability too. They mask it by pretending to be competent - they over-work and they try to be perfect - and then they impose these standards onto others, too. The only defense I would have was 1) over thinking and intrusive chronic worry and being hypervigilant and to sooth them and 2) to have resentment and hold onto grudge.
Whoa! This is huge realization.
"I am worthy whether you like me or not" Yeah, I see toxic shame as core entity that is causing mental instability. The only way to heal is to realize self worth - and to put it back inside us where it belongs, instead of exporting it onto other people through external reference locus of control. The problem with toxic shame is that it is slick - it stays stuck with us, it is like virus. The realization that when I feel toxic shame from interaction with other people - it is because even though other people appear competent and superior - they are actually feeling the exact shame sense of deep core painful unworthiness that I am feeling too - the only difference is that I am fawning to others while narcissists are dealing with their toxic shame by being aggressive to others. And this dynamics never make me realize that I am not inept and that pushy people are not superior no matter what mask they put on or no matter what act they create.
My previous account was blocked and disabled due to You tube copyrights, but I follow and comment Lisa for two years now. I guess my previous comments are now deleted, too. So I will repeat it - I find Lisa's content extremely helpful and this proves it. Lisa Romano is amazing guide. ---
I see being unable to tolerate discomfort stem from internalized toxic shame - where we don't have self worth inside us. Without self worth we have no idea what we like, and where are boundaries, neither we see red flags. Thus we cannot confront - we can't see problem in the first place. And self worth means being ok with being ourselves, with flaws and mistakes that we hate about ourselves. Since we do not tolerate our rejected parts (being wuss, scared, panicked, mistaken, embarrassed, flawed) - in the same time we are unable to tolerate discomfort - because discomfort triggers us to feel those rejected parts we refuse to accept and validate. I would focus on self validation and self-acceptance - so that we finally realize from within what is good and what is bad. With toxic shame we externalize this decision onto other people - and we fawn onto them, shut up and self censor ourselves. I see self worth as inner voice that tells us what to do and how to react in proper manner, with mistakes included - mistakes as part of learning experience. Also, I see confrontation and conflict - not as aggression and explosions neither wars nor temper tantrums - but rather as being genuine, authentic, voicing out the elephant in the room, being honest and transparent and objective - scientist really - stating facts and asking for clarity. If other person is manipulative and has hidden Machiavellian agenda behind - they won't be able to handle the truth, and that is also good information to receive. Narcissists hate transparency, since they gaslight and have smear campaign - in which case further argument is pointless. That is also good information - that we recognize who has narcissistic tools - as someone who is not worthy of our time nor energy.
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I realized that toxic shame prevents our self worth to take root inside us. Without self worth we don't know what we want and what we like. With toxic shame we get false messages and cognitive distortions - so we export our self worth in other people - now other people appear as authority and we distrust our own power to make decisions in our lives - since there is no self worth inside us, it is located in other people. This means, they can claim and explain and give their perceptions - and we will believe it. Also we will see other people as superior - especially if they act aggressively and rudely and pushy and arrogant when they are shaming others. And we shut up and self censor as protective mechanism, due to internalized toxic shame that speaks we are inept and invalid.
Problem starts when our Maslow needs are connected to people who are manipulative and rude and difficult. Service, job, money, help, information, papers, deals - that we need - if the environment is toxic, it will limit our choices in life. This is where we need to stand up for ourselves - in those situations where we need third thing that is controlled by narcissist. This is connected to - what are our rights? What rights we have? Is it difficult to be asked to be treated with respect, the same respect as we give others? As I understand, the point of this video is crucial and extremely important - that we stop looking at narcissists as superior being. With fears, anxiety and toxic shame - we will see ourselves as inferior while these fake people will appear as divine beings and we will people please them, shut up and self-censor, be pushover and fawn to them - because we are convinced we are inept while they are competent and strong. Which is a lie. We are all on par. We may not be equal - due to job title or rank , age or IQ level, empathy or inability to connect with others - however we are on par - nobody is better or worse as basic human being capable to make mistakes and have wrong toxic upbringing and other influences. With toxic shame we think we are unworthy, while competent, forceful and arrogant people who are rude and screaming and yelling appear as superior beings to us. That kind of toxic perception is false and it needs to go away.
Yeah, I do feel like I must hold onto grudge and have resentments and that I must prove I am strong and valid - so I try to resolve what happened with intrusive worry and incessant analysis. As if there is competition - and this is what they want - to create drama and polarization, that gives them energy. So instead of living my life - I am worrying and live in chronic worry and hypervigilance. I stay stuck in toxic environment believing there is nothing better.
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Peterson as usual is prone to vague description of concepts that he read somewhere, unable to understand it himself. His repeated message is narcissistic attempt to build false fake persona, fake mask of superiority and egoistical obsession and fixation with oneself. His message to be monster is attempt to cover up deep inferiority complex and internalized toxic shame by abusing others around you. Very toxic and very unhealthy. He is not psychologist, he needs psychologist.
He is obsessed with being eaten by wolf - so he tries to implement fear and paranoia in young narcissists and aspiring narcissists - people who feel good by exploiting others and treating other people as objects to manipulate, exploit and throw off when you are done.
He explains that life is very difficult. Thus he subconsciously tries to scare people into his own mental injury and instability - that life is difficult. Life is whatever you make it out. If you explain it as difficult, it will be difficult, you will perceive anything you think - this is called confirmation bias. So he is full of biases, logical fallacies, cognitive distortions and thinking traps and thinking errors. He believes in his own superiority and that is illness. Reality is dualistic, yin yang. There is no solid ultimate truth, unless being violent and unkind - anything goes.
So he is very dangerous - he is instructing people to be mentally ill, to develop neurosis, chronic worry and hypervigilance. There are better psychologists and authors out there who are not antagonistic like him, filled with hate and unprocessed rage and trauma. There is Robert Greene, Dan Ariely, actually no one is so negative and twisted like Peterson.
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Problem is self worth - which is not inside us. Instead there is internalized toxic shame. Toxic shame will not allow us to talk in the first place - it makes us shut up and self censor. And if we do speak up - we will feel guilty due to trauma from childhood -being invalidated - which we may resolve by over-compensating - that we appear right and seek assurance and confirmation, validation and approval from others. This will make it impossible to stop talking - since narcissists love drama and arguments and creating chaos, gaslighting and smear campaign.
So I would say self worth is important, that we know we are ok as we are, without seeking external validation. Then, we can speak what needs to be said - being objective, transparent, with facts, voicing out the elephant in the room - and then stop talking, without seeking confirmation and without urge to control the other person.
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(7.3.2022)
It is fear of criticism. "They fear being judged or scrutinized by others." (healthline) "you fear being scrutinized or judged negatively by others." (mayoclinic)
I see it as reaction to trauma. We were traumatized in childhood - complex trauma: being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and being exposed to adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process it other then internalizing toxic shame. Now it is is programmed in our mind, like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals. Someone throws temper tantrum or any negative judgement, real or imagined - and our trauma is triggered. Whereas triggers and flashbacks and flash bulb images control us - thus we lose free will. Learned helplessness, people pleasing, fawning and trauma bonding, external validation - I see it as product of toxic shame which does not allow free will (self worth inside us) to make decisions. I see it also as part of our personality - we want relationships and making friendships - however our psyche balance our need to socialize being friendly with being exposed to narcissistic abuse when child brain was in development - so now we are stuck in arrested development - since we never broke to the other side. We never check what will happen if we start to filter out people - instead it is black and white: either fawn or avoid. There is no communication and being honest - there is only fear of confrontation - since our toxic shame tells us we are inept and unworthy. Self worth is thus being exported into other people - and other people are seen as gods, superior, while we are inferior and unable to manage life and make decisions without seeking approval from others. Some people resolve this issue by fight response - but this only leads to drama, explosions and further over-reactions. Since interdependence is the only way relationships work. That people are on par - instead of competition. Allegory of long spoons describe this interdependence.
I see the only way we return self worth inside us, is to accept our mistakes, flaws, being embarrassed and making fool out of ourselves with our words, actions and thoughts - that we accept and validate ourselves.
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Yeah, I would go deeper in accepting how I come across. It is not only about accepting panic symptoms. It is accepting that I am making fool of myself. Accepting that I look like fool. That people will always say something stupid and embarrassing - embarrassment is part of social life and social communication - saying wrong and hurtful things unintentionally.
I believe with social anxiety we are already have externalized attention. It is in fact external reference locus of control that is causing anxiety. Being zoomed into other people - their reactions, their small and minutest expressions on their face, their words, their temper tantrums, angers, dissatisfaction, rejection - it is all too much noticed even in the smallest possible quantity - it is like we are zoomed into other people with microscope. I would rather zoom out from people - and try to see bigger picture. IS this person narcissistic, manipulative - are they lying? Can I allow myself to doubt this person instead of seeing it through lens of social anxiety as superior and god like creature? Can I doubt my own conclusions, since I know that anxiety is lying to us all the time.
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Why don't you tell them in their face this instead of fawning to them? Be honest, genuine, yourself. You don't like small talk - I would say "I don't like small talk" You don't like talking about private life - I would say "I don't like to bore people with my life, nothing ever happens." With social anxiety we make other people into gods and we expect their validation, we seek their approval and that they treat us nice and with respect. It will never happen until we start validate and accept and treat ourselves nice. If my persona dislike small chat, if I do not like to disclose my private life to people who gather personal data which they use later on for their drama hour and criticism, I would not go along with them. Why can't we set some standard - that we do not speak about intimate issues with colleagues who are not our friends? We can show others how to treat us by our own behaviour, honest and being genuinely us, with flaws and mistakes included.
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It is product of trauma. We were trained like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals into fawning as default response to other people - due to internalized toxic shame inside us. If I feel need to explain myself to others - it means I see other people as gods, superior. We are all on par. People who exploit others are not gods nor superior - they are narcissists, they are also product of abuse, however they decided to deal with their trauma by wearing fake mask of superiority and competence - and the only way to keep image that covers their trauma injury is to exploit others, getting admiration and approval from others through abuse. So the best target for their constant admiration are other people who were abused, but how kept their empathy and need for friendship inside - people pleasers. I see toxic shame as culprit that makes us fawn to others as method of protection from feeling the pain of original abuse (being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process mentally ill person in our midst). The anti-dote to toxic shame is self worth - which is now exported onto other people, where we see other people as gods, and our self worth depends on approval and like from other people - whereas their angers, disapproval and temper tantrums are too painful to witness and we can't shake off their negative comments - so we people please them. Solution is to accept ourselves as we are: scared, weak, wrong, with all mistakes and flaws that we define as inept, unacceptable, sissy, wuss, unworthy, stupid. Because of abuse we were never loved and validated - and by people pleasing we seek love and validation from others. This can never happen from other people - love and validation must come from inside us. By being nice, good, kind, open and friendly - we will attract toxic people. So the chances are we are surrounded by manipulative, narcissistic people around us. This way we can never get love and validation from them. When we accept our weaknesses and flaws, we will paradoxically reject negative and nagging people - we will get rid of negative influence and start to make better and healthier connections and decisions instead of current ones that make us feel small.
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Yes!! You got it. Fawning is connected with self worth issues. We have issues with self worth due to internalized toxic shame. Toxic shame is deep core belief we are inept, stupid, unworthy, weak, wuss, unable to manage life and make decisions - so our psyche finds solution to make decisions which we are forced to make every minute of life - by seeking approval and validation from other people. This is external reference locus of control and trauma bonding. This is why someone's disapproval meant my own disapproval - and we can't shake it off unless we are aware why this is happening. Yeah, we cannot control other people. To believe we can control other people is cognitive distortion.
Built self worth means something radical and shocking - that we are ok with being who we are. This message is something we never got while growing up. We were instead being told what is wrong with us, being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when child brain was developing into persona. We got stuck with toxic shame due to arrested development. With self worth - it means we become pioneer, we set standard, we warn and alert other people when they are rude, we admit we make mistakes and we are humble - instead of trying to cover our mistakes up by secrets and avoidance. It also means that we cut contact with negative and toxic influences in our lives. Self worth will radically change our lives to better.
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(8.3.2022)
This is exactly how I feel too. This is social anxiety - set of physical symptoms mixed with our convictions and rules that are based on trauma CPTSD - as kids we were exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria - and our child brain internalized this as toxic shame - we were neglected and invalidated, so now we hide our feelings and we are not honest nor authentic. Instead we fawn to others, we try to get this validation from others.
You said "To say that they would be bored of what I have to say would only provoke them to ask more" With social anxiety we see authority as god like creature, and we obey and feel subservient to them. This is remnant of trauma. I realized it is not about conflict nor confrontation - when you speak up honestly and genuinely about yourself - you are not attacking anyone. With fawning we trauma bond with other people, especially with authority. This is trauma response - it is not our trait. This means, we can be honest. In your case, I would use broken record technique in this case - if they keep on asking - I would simply repeat - Nothing happened, nothing interesting. With time I would even dare to say it is intrusive.
We are afraid that people will hate us if we do not fawn to them. In reality, people value honest and genuine people, even though when you disagree with them. With social anxiety we never break the ice, we never come to the other side, and instead we are stuck in limbo - caring what other people would think of us, and we fawn. For me it helped me to realize that fawn is not as I thought it was it is not me being nice and being civilized and following social etiquette - this is programming from narcissistic abuse in childhood. Fawn is reaction and attempt to appease others so that they do not hurt us and cause us pain. It is due to trauma. This awareness helped me to change thinking and explanations that I give myself. I also had prepared explanation - they are authority, they demand something so I must always be subservient. No, I don't have to. There are borders and common sense of what is normal and acceptable. I realized that due to toxic shame I do not have self worth inside me - with self worth I would know what is common sense. With toxic shame I fawn onto others and I depend on their explanations what is common sense. This leads to herd mentality and groupthink - and it is actually frowned upon in society, even though nobody talks about it.
Descartes told us to start doubting our own thoughts and people around us - and we will start to think. With fawning we run on auto-pilot, we repeat the dysfunctional programming, virus code that we learned from our abusers and bullies when we were too young to discern what is normal.
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"Create critic into character to dissociate" Yeah, this helps to stop personalization and blaming myself, carrying guilt and shame. With character - I move it away from me. Amazing information, thank you!
I love stupid whiny voice trick! That helps to dissociate from fear! I would not use it on other people - it is highlighting and going to extreme my own intrusive worry - how irrational it is, rather than going along with hysteria and habitual worry of toxic shame.
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(9.3.2022)
Yeah, I like it, thanks for message. It is like seeing arguments and test them with others as if it is a peer review. Scientific evaluation and being objective. I believe the problem is that we are conditioned by our school system into Aristotelian mentality - where we must label everything as absolute truth without acknowledging the grey area. In this way we polarize anything into truth or not truth, and this creates rigid, one-sided thinking mentality. It helps us to grab firm on ground, however it makes us ego-centric and stubborn and difficult to form any contact or relationship if too extreme.
The solution is Plato and Socrates thinking: fuzzy logic. That we allow the possibility that we might be wrong, but also that the other person may be wrong, and that there may be partial, gradient truth - since there is no ultimate truth. We can't read people's minds and we can't see everything in life - so we will never know all the possible total truth about anything. Unless unkind or violent, anything goes. This way, instead of fighting with someone who is stubborn - I can simply state I disagree with you, and move on, instead of trying to impose my view.
I see problem here with people with trauma and toxic shame, where they cannot have self worth inside them, so they are unable to form their own truth and difference between acceptable and what is good, and thus rely on other people to explain and see others as superior, perceiving others as withholders of the truth.
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I see toxic shame as hallucination - we are worthy and competent but we do not see it. As if we are hypnotized into it. I believe deep core belief about how we are inept is implanted and hypnotized into us due to Complex trauma experience. I see problem that toxic shame is slick, it is hard to grasp and to recognize it, so it can govern our thoughts and decisions, and it controls us.. I learned that toxic shame exports our self worth into other people. And then other people control and govern our thinking and our ability in making decisions - since their emotions are the prime focus and very important, we will try to fix other people's problems, most often by playing small and not disturbing anyone or avoiding people in general. This fear of people's reaction and criticism and shame keeps us in isolation and we do not express ourselves - since we have no self worth inside us, we trauma bond with other people instead. All due to toxic shame - which is delusional thinking that we are not competent to manage our lives.
Occasionally we might decide to stand up for ourselves, but irrational guilt will kick in, our body will release chemicals and hormones - and it will influence our thinking in negative way, self blame and feeling guilty for saying anything, just for existing. External reference locus of control brings more toxic shame - because other people can now shame us very easily with our self worth located in the external - other people. I see toxic shame as part of trauma. It is stuck in our body and we believe anything it says, we never doubt our own thoughts. Anxiety will lie to us. Anxiety has credibility of car-salesman.
I see self worth solution in taking it away from dislocated place of other people and placing it back inside us where it belongs - as anti-dote to toxic shame. This means accepting our faults and mistakes, having intrinsic locus of control instead of external reference locus of control. Now our thoughts actions are based on what we want rather than worrying about approval, likes or dislike, invalidation or validation from others.
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Yeah! thanks! I see it like - we accept our fault and flaws, and not let other people to define what is wrong or allow other people to hold the ultimate judgement of what is allowed or correct - where instead - we have our own brain, we have super ego mechanism inside us- where we soak all information from external world and make our own judgement, instead of being controlled by what certain people may reject or ashame about ourselves.
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(10.3.2022)
It comes down to self worth. Due to internalized toxic shame, we export our self worth into other people and we try to please them, since our self worth is dislocated away from us. Toxic shame does not allow us to accept ourselves as we are, with mistakes and flaws - and this keeps us in loop of trauma bonding with other people who appear superior and as guide to use. The more we validate and accept ourselves, with all fears and labels and wrongness, we will be able to cut toxic connections with others.
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"then you can say this is how I think and need and put some boundaries " I see this as alarm and alert the person when they are rude.
"Overwhelming and manipulative people" I learned that people who appear superior, strong, violent, aggressive - and this scare us into submission and subservience and pull us in drama and unfair position of inferior/superior, never being on par with others - I realized that these people are wearing a mask, they are fake. In fact they are covering up their inferiority complex by play pretending to be strong. They learned to build fake persona of strength - and yeah as said in video - we should not buy into it. That is their tactic to get their way - they scare people with their mask of grandiosity. It is a mask. It is not real. That is will create big shift for all of us who play fair and want to give other person chance to talk and give in to their drama - and thus they take advantage of us in the end. In their toxic head they see us as weak and pathetic because we submit and play fair and are nice to people - but in reality they are parasites for parasiting over kind and nice people who respect others. They think they are strong and their aggression is moving the mountains, but in fact they are nothing but parasites that exploit easy targets and munching on welcoming, non violent, civilized and kind people. As it is said in video, this disengaging is step we need to take. We don't cut toxic people away because we buy into their mask, and we try to be empathetic and nice in the same time. The biggest challenge here is recognizing red flags and identifying narcissist, or any other toxic and manipulative person. This part is fuzzy because they wear this mask. They appear friendly, nice, and they manipulate by using honeymoon period. They appear as help and service, they validate and show love - but this is only for their agenda and hooking up period, to get us hooked. Knowing this dynamics and knowing whom we are dealing with is crucial, as explained in this vid.
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(11.3.2022)
I've joined reddit main social anxiety community last month - I talked, or better word is, I communicated to them the concept of external reference locus of control, how our toxic shame expels our self worth into other people - and we became socially anxious due to trauma bonding. Many of them were amazed of this perspective - and unfortunately classical CBT (which is accepted as standard for healing social anxiety) does not explain this - why we care so much what other people think and criticize. This is very important topic for Socially anxious. I am reading Codependent No More - yeah, social anxiety is equal to codependency (fear of criticism and negative evaluation is medical definition of social anxiety) and it falls under the umbrella of Complex Trauma.
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I literally learned the fawning concept from Marshall - one year ago. He helped me to put definition to chaos, gaslighting and confusion what is wrong. The information helped me to form awareness that I have exported my self worth into other people, while inside I have toxic shame that is governing my thoughts, actions and opinions and conclusions. That finally made sense why I feel trauma and social anxiety and fears from critical and aggressive people. None of the official medical social anxiety resources do not mention fawning at all. Instead, they focus on panic symptoms, by which they are telling us with social anxiety that we are actually weird and wrong by default, while other people are strong and better - and thus they are enforcing the toxic shame inside via supposed help and advice to calm down.
Immense help from and gratitude to Marshall.
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It comes down to self worth. That we do not base our opinions, conclusions on other people's expectations, real or imagined. Very difficult thing to achieve if we are still in toxic environment that mocks mistakes and expect perfectionism.
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(13.3.2022)
"Being attach what other people think of them" is the core of trauma. So it is not something you can stop by thinking about it or at the press of a button. When you realize what exactly is trauma message, you can shift it and shake it off.
"When you are being yourself, you have to be willing to violate people's expectations of you. You have to be willing to disappoint them. You have to be willing for them to react negatively." And psychologically speaking - it is not so straightforward. It is not only me as factor here. We got to outgrow ego-centrism. We have to look different perspectives and outside of the box when we face any issue.
"But someone who's attached to what other people think of them is not willing to take that risk, so they end up being who others want them to be rather than being themselves." Ok, what happen when this is all mixed and garbled up? What happens when you have toxic shame - so you have no self worth to begin with. At the start your wings are being cut off. Then you enter social situations and school environment and-or job market - and your self worth is depended on other people's approval due to toxic shame - and since you have no experience and knowledge - you have no wings to fly - what happens is that with trauma and toxic shame - other people will control you. This happens since your self worth is now part of what you do, and it is evaluated through other people who are suppose to guide you and teach you how to "catch your own fish".
Instead - with trauma, in toxic environment - other people do not help you. They are not friendly. They do not assist. They do not serve. They do not correct. Instead they throw toxic shame, expect you to be perfectionist and that you must be expert in anything you start doing by magic, out of thin air you have to download 30 years of life experience - and also they keep moving goal post and expect you to know in advance some knowledge you have no prior information about. This is abuse we are talking about here.
Without self worth you cannot defend yourself by voicing out the obvious: "I don't know" or "What you expect from me to do or know?" "How am I suppose to know this" and "What makes you god to order me around or tell me what is correct since you obviously never said it before" and "Why is this my responsibility?". "You are not helping." "You are being rude." "You are being hysterical." "Stop it." Instead of defense words like these, you are caught up in explaining yourself, in drama of gaslighting and unfair accusations and quick conclusions which are actually biased and logical fallacies and prejudgments.
So the problem here are toxic people who ashame others, who criticize and nags others in order to cover up their own inferiority, stupidity and psychopathy - by shaming and accusing the easy target: someone who is open, friendly and nice.
The point of this video is that all people can access self worth.
However: Many cannot access self worth - it may be due to trauma, and dysfunctional and toxic environment. Without self worth you do not have baseline for building anything.
The video misses this information. As Classical CBT and many self-help gurus. The fact you are missing is: some people cannot access self worth due to external factors, it is not their choice.
And they have no idea how to build self worth as adult. Without self worth we will build external reference locus of control and trauma bonding. We will make other people into judges and legal system that proclaims what is correct and what is bad. Further, complex problem is external factor - people who are psychopaths and manipulative, who provide you false information and aggressive messages, toxic shaming. Without self worth, we believe them and never doubt them and take their opinion for granted, as if it is ultimate truth in the world. There is a saying:
'The way people treat you, is a statement about who they are as a human being. It is not a statement about you.'
2:31 "I depend on what other people think to survive." That is incorrect assessment. Firstly, people with low self worth are not aware their self worth is exported into other people. This part is hidden - so it is life with veil over your face, looking to people through the gaze, there is no clarity. It is like Maxwell said as if you ride through life with your hand brake on. Secondly it is not focus on "survive". It is life itself. Anything is filtered and lensed through other people. Not only basic Maslow needs (money, security, help, service). It is what you choose to buy, how you dress, how you speak, words and opinions you talk about or shut up and self-censor yourself about, it is whom you choose to see or avoid mostly, whom you allow yourself to be attracted to, how you take care of health - how you spend your free time - it is all hypnotically connected to other people's opinion. Not only survival. The high point in psychology is that we achieve interdependence - that we form relationships with other people on fair and on par basis. Without abusing and exploitation of any party in it. I am talking about analogy/allegory of the long spoons.
"That is not relationship. You are prisoner to someone's idea of you." Damn straight. That is trauma bonding. Stockholm Syndrome - that is social anxiety and codependency by definition: being someone's prisoner.
"I'll always depend on people's opinion for security" People who have trauma depend on people's instructions - it is not opinion. They depend on what people will say - so that I will not be responsible if something ends up wrong. With people pleasing, I can always say - someone told me to do it and thus evade responsibility and painful mocking and attack from the critics. Since this is highly dysfunctional mode of living, this ends up in avoidance and isolation as the final solution. Mental illness is born.
The fact of life is that there is dependance on what other person instructs about doing anything in life - especially anything that is new and unknown. Since life is full of new and unknown decisions all the time - we remain stuck in other people's definitions and explanations what is happening and what should be done about it. We never doubt them, we never criticize them, we never bring into question their definitions - because toxic people are tyrants.
So person who is caring what other people think - is clear sign that the other person is mentally ill. - It is a sign that the abuser is untreated, unrecognized mentally ill person.
When there is people pleasing and fawning - it is not one person to "blame" and to focus on. We have to become aware that there is hidden factor that is causing this distortion. The toxic person who is triggering people pleasing in others - and that person is mentally ill, untreated and highly dangerous. Just try to object to narcissist and you will see what will happen - their narcissistic injury will get triggered.
This is the root of all crime and violence - and society ignores it - and blames victims and targets for the people pleasing. Classical CBT, self help gurus and videos like this one - although helpful and informative - are actually total cowards. They are Rescuers in Karpman Drama Triangle. Pontificators who point the finger at the victim and totally ignores the Bully in this Triangle Drama - due to Rescuer's issues with cowardice.
People pleasing takes two to tango - this is not solo dance. Fawning is not solo act.
In politics - this is what we see with Russia, Ukraine and the world. No one in the West speaks that Putin is mentally ill and narcissist. No one. So we have Karpman Drama Triangle. Ukraine sees Putin as aggressor - and thus gives him even more power. Person with superiority complex such as Putin - is very weak person, extremely injured and wounded, and extremely inferior. He is not powerful at all. He uses tools of destructions and temper tantrums - as would any baby with matches - can be able to burn down the house. The West does not help either - instead of instructing Russian's medical personal and his associated to remove Putin into mental institution, Macron and German PMs along with British one, try to talk and reason with the Putin as if Putin is healthy and reasonable person. Putin is insane. He is a madman. It is the same as if you try to talk with Zodiac killer and try to reason with serial killer. You can't. This person is living in his fantasy world with deranged thoughts. So both West and Ukraine are doing the wrong approach and wrong steps - it is not Putin's fault.
In the same way, the video, and Marcus Aurelius and Classical CBT are taking the wrong approach here.
"If you sell water in a desert, does it matter what people think of you? If you can truly produce something of a value, their opinions do not matter" That is the problem. You as people pleaser do not sell water, you are employee of company that sells water. So your worth still depends on evaluation by abuser and manipulative corporation. You do not produce anything - since you are stuck in corporation of evil. This part Marcus Aurelius do not understand. You are stuck because self worth has been crushed in developmental years due to Complex Trauma - and now as adult you are stuck in repeating the wrongly learned safety mechanisms how to deal with criticism - and videos like this - although explain what is going on perfectly - do no explain what can you do to get out of toxic cycle and Karpman Drama Triangle.
You get out by realizing that you can alarm and alert other person, and that all triggers stem from wrong, toxic evaluation and Machiavellian guidance by untreated mentally ill person on the other side.
You get out by realizing I can change company or establish my own business. You cannot think like that when your self worth is being hijacked and traumatized to begin with, in childhood. You cannot free yourself as long as trauma is stuck in our body.
"When you break free of all your prisons fruit will make on its own accord" This is half truth. You can do everything perfectly and still fail. You can have excellent manure and still get frost that kills fruit from developing in the first place. Prison will always be there. Toxic and manipulative and untreated mentally ill people will always be there. The only way to deal with them is to express yourself - develop fruit without manure. Speak out the voice inside that we self-censor. With trauma and toxic people - our self worth is being exported into other people through the act of external referencing locus of control due to toxic shame which is inside us.
"Truly overcoming your own problems is what allows you to help others overcome theirs - which is why true value lies in being oneself." That is the problem when you have a person who is criticizing your overcomings. When they attack your mistakes. Mistakes are real - they ashame them. This way, you never overcome problems - you are being blamed for them in cycle of abuse. This mechanism is what is keeping worry what other people think alive. Machiavellians, narcissists abuse this mechanism. They surveil 24/7 and scan for mistakes - and then when it happens - they attack immensely just for the sake of attack. They keep you in state of confusion, hypervigilance and blame and guilt - since you really made a mistake. Without self worth and without proper information from topic that discuss this core issue of any mental illness - you are contributing to the cycle of abuse. In the same time, the act of abuse gives the narcissist fuel and validation and importance and grandiosity. This is why we need to opt out of Karpman Drama Triangle.
4:40 "But as long as we are attached to what other people think of us" That is the problem - they do not think. They make statement. They make claims. They make definitions, they define and present themselves as police, judicial system and kings and dictators. This is not thought that you can doubt - they state it in a form of law and ultimate truth. This is what you and Marcus Aurelius nor Classical CBT nor self help gurus cannot understand. It is not thought, it is not in a form of someone opinion or thinking - it is ultimate all knowing, god like , all encompassing command, and personal order which cannot be put in question. If you question it - you get punished, attacked and hurt - since narcissists injury is being triggered when you start to doubt them and their own capabilities.
"As long as we're attached to what other people think of us, we will always be what people want us to be rather than being ourselves. And if we abandon ourselves, we abandon our ability to be truly useful to the world." That is problem - manipulators and abusers, bullies, psychopaths and narcissist attach and leech on this belief to be useful. They take monopole over it and they harvest honest and good citizens who strive to be useful to the world. They direct and order this process, take charge of it and then exploit the targets. Bullies blame, abuse, curse, torment people who want to be useful to the world. You totally miss the aggressor part in Karpman Drama Triangle. This way you are adding up to the toxic shame and confusion - you are not helping the victim in this drama triangle at all.
"If we abandon our ability to be truly useful to the world, we abandon what is perhaps the only form of true security." We don't abandon it. It is being hijacked. It is being stolen. There is a crime here. It is not a choice. It is a swindle act. People who are people pleasers are being manipulated and hypnotized via toxic shame and guilt into subservience. First they are made to be pushover and learned helplessness in Complex Trauma childhood - where they learn safety mechanisms - later in adulthoods these immature ego defense mechanisms are attracting abusers and manipulators and keep drama ongoing. This is not a choice. This is not something you can change by talking about it, this is not something you change at a press of a button.
Amazing topic and it is groundbreaking perspective, it is rarely discussed and it is almost never been spoken in this breakthrough aspect - so it is quality top notch video content, as always. This topic is at the root of all mental illness, and any mental instability. It is at the core of all depressions and addictions, codependency and social anxiety issues. Unfortunately, the society does not recognize Karpman Drama Triangle - where all 3 factors are important to understand - where society focus only on the victim, where the bully factor is the only true cause of disorder and should be modified and healed. If not - narcissists will infect the world with mental illness.
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(14.3.2022)
Belief is not connected to general people as a group. If we are with safe people, if we have psychological safety in social group - we would not have social anxiety. Social anxiety does not fall out of heaven, it is not irrational or mysterious event that comes out of thin air. It has specific triggers, flashbacks and flash bulb images that sets of emotional dysregulation.
Trauma from childhood is focused and narrowed down to the trauma belief - which is related to specific problem in social situations. Social anxiety covers it up with general fear - and thus both target nor rescuer do not know the real source of social anxiety, they are both in the dark.
This is why Classical CBT is useless and we have to rely on Humanistic Psychology instead. Carl Rogers said: "we cannot change, we cannot move away from what we are, until we thoroughly accept what we are. Then change seems to come about almost unnoticed"
Therefore, removing safety behavior will not work - the brain will come up with new safety behaviours. Psyche is having trauma trapped inside the body. If you do not address the trauma, it will erupt in other places once you shut down the eruption at another place.
It will simply latch onto nuisances not mentioned in the list of safety behaviors such as people pleasing, fawning and shutting up and self-censorship or suicide idealizations - or with when cornered safety behaviour may spawn into fight response.
Just stop and think about it for a second. If we create ritual to prevent anxiety (being hyperalert about our safety mechanisms, picking them up and wasting time and energy on removing them) we will create PureOCD obsession mania. As we know, PureOCD rituals lead to more anxiety, new anxieties, totally unrelated to the original one. We will create more neurosis and more anxiety in the process of trying to control anxiety. Anxiety lies to us. It has credibility of a salesman, we cannot let anxiety lead us like carrot and donkey. We have to be one step ahead of anxiety and make more intelligent steps.
Consider this:
We don't get answer what happens when people really do laugh at you?
Social anxiety beliefs will make us believe any action will end in embarrassment - therefore we will end up with people laughing no matter what we do - even when we do nothing, they will laugh (mock, nag, criticize) for being passive. This means - anything in social anxiety setting will be trigger - real or imagined. Anything we do in reaction will be safety mechanism. Including the process of removal of safety mechanisms itself.
I would not go along with pathologizing our safety mechanisms. It would work with people who have phobia - when you are afraid of non toxic spiders for example.
Safety mechanisms will fall off on its own once we zero in onto trauma belief. If I discover that my trauma belief is related to being functional, working, performing without mistake, that I have to be helpful and servient and subservient, if my trauma belief is that I must prove my worth by job and doing tasks perfectly and all the time - then I can realize that the actual problem is not me - but the other person on the other side who is unreasonable and it is nitpicking on my mistakes and expecting me to be unrealistically perfect. Once I know this is my trauma belief - I can address this person directly - without argument but with discussion. For example, with social anxiety I would now know what triggers my panic - but once I discover that my panic is triggered by need and urge to be good worker and excellent performer in anything productive - I can reply to the critic my defense and voice out the words that are related to the trauma which I could not speak out as kid or socially anxious panicked adult: "I don't know" or "What you expect from me to do or know?" "How am I suppose to know this" and "What makes you god to order me around or tell me what is correct since you obviously never said it before" and "Why is this my responsibility?" "You are not helping." "You are being rude." "You are being hysterical." "Stop it."
If you have anxiety related to trauma of being criticized relentlessly 24/7 - I would rather focus on person suffering from social anxiety to understand trauma and to work on accepting and loving oneself with all the flaws and mistakes and safety mechanisms.
Social anxiety and people pleasing and fawning and codependency is signal and alarm that we were once in close proximity to untreated mentally ill person who infected us with mental instability through gaslighting and smear campaign. As wounded, we are likely to attract the same trauma abuser in our adulthood. Narcissists and abusers sniff out scared and panicked people like predator catching its prey. With narcissistic information we can learn that narcissists live in their fantasy world - and this can give us power to start doubting rude people who make us socially anxious instead of being scared of them. We can confront and leave them if they do not stop after we alerted them. Having mental and physical protection and education will absolve us of safety mechanisms mentioned in this video.
Social anxiety is irrational fear of criticism and negative evaluation. It is our kryptonite. This also means that our poison can become our cure.
This means: we can criticize back the critics. We can say that we disagree. We can point out their flaws. This does not mean fight with them. Narcissists hate transparency. Therefore our tool of protection is being objective and transparent with people, all people. Being honest, genuine and speak the truth. We will feel social anxiety when someone is rude and unreasonable. Social anxiety in small dosage is normal event - it is normal reaction to toxic people. WE can protect ourselves by being transparent and through discussion - by pointing out the things that do not work in this person who is rude. Criticize them back. Repeat it again and again. IF someone is yelling and screaming - this is not social etiquette - we can repeat it again and again the elephant in the room: that they are hysterical, that they are screaming - and we can turn around and ignore, discontinue conversation or contact. We will do it anyways through avoidance. The normal and healthy person will listen to us. Balanced people will realize that they are making fool of themselves. The sick psychopaths will never admit their mistake - and this is how we can recover from being socially anxious safety mechanisms. Social anxiety is not problem, safety mechanisms are the problem. They limit us from coming up with new ideas, with functional solutions to problems.. They focus us on what we hate and we spend our time and energy and money on healing the abuse.
We can opt out of Karpman Drama Triangle. Focusing on safety mechanisms means staying inside Karpman Drama Triangle. It means we make a victim out of ourselves and we give too much power and importance to the bully.
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"Social Anxiety is an anxiety disorder characterized by an irrational fear or discomfort of being in unfamiliar social situations or social situations outside one’s own home" It is part of Complex Trauma. It is not unknown or mysterious source. It has specific narrow focused source of origin from where it stems. The patient is not aware what is the original trauma belief that is causing the panic - therefore Classical CBT is not helpful, since psychology is suppose to be one step ahead of anxiety, not riding along and letting anxiety to lead us. Anxiety is liar, it has credibility of salesman. We have to have more intelligent response than looking for anxiety's approval and asking anxiety for the next step. Classical CBT focus on symptoms and safety mechanisms - and thus envelops, interlopes, intertwines, and enmesh itself with the panic itself.
" Individuals may be afraid that they will be judged or criticized by others so would rather stay home. " IT is not may - it is the root fear. Fear of criticism and negative evaluation. If it was any other fear - it would be another disorder. Avoidance and withdrawal are first symptoms of any mental health issue - no matter how shallow or deep they are - this unfortunately can misdiagnose a lot of individuals to have social anxiety while they simply may be schizoid. Socially anxious value society - this is why there is fear. If you don't care about people - you would not place high importance in people in form of anxiety or any fearful emotional reaction spectrum.
"Others become almost panic-stricken simply at the thought of any social setting where they might become the “center of attention,” such as at a birthday or anniversary party. " This is not totally correct information. The central fear depends on trauma belief. I find the trauma belief for social anxiety is our programmed desire to serve and to be good person who does chores for others. The need to be helpful and servient and subservient to people. So our social anxiety trigger, flashback or any flash bulb image that triggers emotional dysregulation is related to the other person actually who is invalidating, neglecting or mocking our desire to be helpful and functional in our jobs and tasks - whatever these chores could be. Even ordering pizza. The other person may be actually rude or we may imagine the rudeness due to triggers and past trauma events.
The core fear in social anxiety is criticism. Therefore this is our kryptonite. It makes us instable, dysregulated, panicked, it hijacks our amygdala, it shut downs cortex part of brain (we will appear distracted and be ashamed of looking like panicked fool), narcissistic abuse in childhood will program us to feel guilt no matter what we do or not do - no matter how we appear - calmed down or panicked. And we will be zoomed onto other person - their reaction since we seek approval and validation from them - because we never received it in childhood. Toxic shame is inside us (ingrained belief that we are stupid, weird and unworthy and unacceptable) which makes our self worth being exported into other people. This means we will trauma bond with other people - we will observe others as gods and trust their opinion, spoken or unspoken, real or imagined as ultimate truth in the Universe. This creates inferiority complex while we believe people who are calm, loud, obnoxious, arrogant or aggressive to be superior - since they appear not to have anxiety. The truth is that people who are behaving as superior - are wearing a mask - they are feeling wounded, these narcissists cover up their inferiority complex by over-compensation and being a jerk to other people. Our social anxiety explains their aggression as proof that they are gods and we must be subservient to them and never doubt them. With time, we will see all people as superior - and we will never doubt them - that they may be acting, that they may be mentally ill, that they may be wrong and that they may be dangerous or psychopaths. We will see them as our overlords. This sets us up in Karpman Drama Triangle - where we are being as victim. We can opt out of Karpman Drama Triangle. We can use our kryptonite as our weapon.
Without drama, hysteria or explosions we can criticize people back - when they are being rude, unreasonable and when they cross boundaries of common sense, especially when they accuse us of something untrue. With trauma belief connected to social anxiety - other people will trigger us into anxiety when they criticize our work, our job, our ability to be helpful, when they nag, criticize or mock ourselves as being productive member of system. Machiavellians (marketing and politicians, psychopaths and bullies) abuse this fear through guilt tripping us - with guilt these predators realized that they can control easily easy targets: panicked people. Our weapon is education and knowledge. Our weapon is being transparent. Narcissists live in their own imaginary fantasy world. Being objective will harm them. Being honest, truthful and voicing out the elephant in the room will trigger their narcissistic injury. This is our shield and weapon to defend our sanity: being honest, genuine, authentic, being objective and transparent. With social anxiety we shut up and self censor ourselves. Classical CBT makes us to focus on our symptoms - and by pathologizing our natural reaction to abnormal people, abnormal events and abnormal situations - we actually make damage to our system, we create ourselves to be inferior, we create toxic shame, thus we cannot be on par with other people - and we export our self worth into other people - expecting other people to take care of us and to validate us: trauma bonding and external reference locus of control. The solution is to criticize them back and alarm and alert people who are unreasonable and who demand perfection and who accuse us of something untrue. With social anxiety panic, we never are able to zero in and focus on the true source of social anxiety: criticism on our performance and being productive as human being in social system. Therefore, by knowing all this we can actually speak out this: "I don't know" or "What you expect from me to do or know?" "How am I suppose to know this" and "What makes you god to order me around or tell me what is correct since you obviously never said it before" and "Why is this my responsibility?" "You are not helping." "You are being rude." "You are being hysterical." "Stop it."
Humanistic psychology tells us that we accept and validate ourselves. Third wave of CBT - DBT says the same - that we love ourselves, including ourselves to be fool, embarrassed, wrong, mistaken, with flaws. This way we will create self worth inside us - and that is the basis of mental health.
"A few may even isolate themselves, stop dating, refuse a proposal of marriage, drop out of school, or even quit a job. " That is the clue. It is most probably that we date and attract predators. So naturally healthy part of our brain protects us by avoiding narcissists - since we will attract them like moth to a flame. Unhealthy systems like school or jobs - means that there is no societal level protection against narcissists and other psychopaths - therefore it is like handing hot coal on easy target: people like us who are HSP, kind, open, friendly and nice. If we encounter difficult person - classical cbt through toxic shame tells us that we have to be strong and courageous - and that we are faulty and abnormal since we react with panic symptoms. That is lie. If there is some authority that is unreasonable and bullying others - this means actually that there were plethora of other people in charge, authority - that could prevent bully - but they choose not to - due to their cowardice and choice to be in comfort zone. Not reacting to evil is the evil itself. So social anxiety is not to blame the person who is afraid. Social anxiety is signal alarm - that society is sick. It is reaction to toxic people in it, and unhealthy non-functional society that cannot and does not know how to clean itself from psychopaths.
The best example is Putin. The west consider him to be normal and healthy person, so French and German politicians call him and talk with him - instead of contacting Russian mental health institutions and associated to apprehend the lunatic. The west does not label Putin as mentally ill person and psychopath - and in this way they give him power. That is Karpman Drama Triangle and it goes in our small lives too. We can opt out of Karpman Drama Triangle.
Bullies and psychopaths extremely hate criticism - millions times more than we do. We can use and direct our own poison to heal us. This means - be open, speak out, tell the truth, be objective, leave and ignore the bully, be transparent. If we have no ill wish, if we have no evil hidden agenda, if we are normal and healthy people - there is nothing to be embarrassed or scared about, there is nothing to hide.
The more we re-define what is "normal" and "kind" -and actually transform these distorted definitions we have due to trauma and anxiety - the more we will be able to live our lives fully and without inhibitions.
"We cannot change, we cannot move away from what we are, until we thoroughly accept what we are. Then change seems to come about almost unnoticed." Carl R. Rogers
"A relationship should be your happy place, not where you beg your partner to act right." anon
"To be normal is the ultimate aim of the unsuccessful." - Carl Jung ---
To put all this text in example from this video. Scenario: I order pizza over phone and I start to jumble my words and don't know what to say or what I want. I do not see other person as someone who can help me with unknown factors (not knowing what sorts of pizza there are) - I do not evaluate situation - that other person is here to explain anything I have doubt with - instead I see other person as judging god, police and law - and I see myself as scared and panicked, not knowing from where this panic is stemming from. The panic stems from failing to be productive and functional person without mistakes. When I have self worth inside me without toxic shame - I accept my panic response. So I can say this: "Sorry I completely lost myself. I am hungry, I want pizza I cannot think straight hehe - but I cannot make up my mind about fish you place in it. What kind of pizza without fish do you have?" So I acknowledge my panic and being embarrassed and stupid but I accept it as part of life and I ask for help from a person who is suppose to help me anyways - to tell me information about pizza they have.
Let's say that person on the other side is arrogant, rude and non servient, non helpful. Then I can say: "You are rude. I am reporting you" Hang up the phone. "Excuse me, I am not getting help here. I am not asking you for opinion,, you can keep that for yourself" "Can you help me or not?" I would opt for hanging up and giving one star and nasty comment.
In reality, in most places in the West, people working in serving industry are extremely kind and nice. In the east, due to mental illness, many people in serving industry are really unkind and violent to customers and laws and corruption protects them from any sanctions. If the other person is rude - it may be most probably that he or she had rough incident in their workday, unrelated to me. But nevertheless - no matter what happens to us - it is always our choice how we treat other people. So we can be honest totally honest how we feel - and express ourselves in natural way, with mistakes, flaws and blunders - without trying to hide them nor desperately trying to over-compensate by appear confident.
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Zoroastrianism helped me understand the power of being honest, talk true, truth, being genuine and honest without hiding - since I have no hidden agenda or ill will towards others. This concept of truth is healthy, it helps to chase away toxic shame and restore self worth inside us which is the basis for mental health. Sumerians were the first civilization, they invented almost anything that constitutes modern life thousand of years before the rest, they inspired Ancient Greek philosophers, it is found at the root of 3 major religions - there is something extraordinary in their philosophy and religion.
Zoroastrianism is like Nikola Tesla - helpful, true and original - everyone steals their inventions and ideas, yet hidden and not validated nor acknowledged by general society awareness.
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People pleasing is alarm and signal and red flag that there is abuser on the other side - either in the past or today. Complex trauma is being exposed to neglect and invalidation when we were growing up and during sensitive time of developing persona and self worth. Instead we got stuck in arrested development, with toxic shame inside. Toxic shame propels us to seek validation and approval from other people - who appear better, stronger and competent unlike our toxic shame core belief of being inept.
Karpman Drama Triangle says that when there is a victim - there should be a bully also. Rescuer not signaling this is Drama Triangle does not help the victim. The victim is not aware of people pleasing stemming from abuse and trauma- and thus personalize people pleasing and fawning as trait or choice. The real problem is narcissist, abusers, psychopaths who are treating others as crap. People pleasers due to trauma are not aware of this dynamics. That should be explained - so that we opt out of Karpman Drama Triangle.
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(15.3.2022)
"People being difficult is about you. Difficultness is related to you not to them." That is half true.
You forgot to put into the scope people who manipulate and gaslight and provide fake false information on purpose for agenda or driven due to their psychology illness:
- false accusations, blunt lies - expecting me to do chores at someone's whim just because they play the authority card and ordering me - which is degrading and difficult especially if connected to my fears and phobias, inhibitions - unfair treatment - mocking, taking advantage of my silence and trying not to react - expecting me to be perfect, and perform without mistakes - nagging if I fail - nagging when I make mistake and beating the dog which is dead and lying on the ground - when I need service or help from hysterical person, aggressive and non-cooperative so I fawn - Maslow needs - low paying job with included mobbing. You need money as escape route goal. Living in corrupt poor country where you can't change job at whim.
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1:00 "The more danger is ambivalent relationships." I learned these people can be put under one umbrella: BPD. Borderliners in their drama mixture with friendships fall into this ambivalent area. If you read traits of borderliners, everything will stop being ambivalent. They are 90% narcissists, the only 10% falls onto empathy - which is directed and focused onto their hidden agenda, but they still appear as friends due to this 10 percent, and that makes them ambivalent. They are toxic, minimize or cut contact as soon as someone throws drama and accusations all the time.
7:00 "It's not about me, it's about the team" There is external factor. Some people are sick and have personal agenda, they are evil. They act to play for the team, but they are usurpers. You being a team will only help their agenda. These Putins must be recognized, cut or minimized.
12:21 "Not pointing every obnoxious thing they are doing" Yes and no. These evil people will use kryptonite of socially anxious (good, kind, nice, friendly, open, positive people) and they will accuse others for being lazy, stupid, unproductive. They will guilt trip our inner urge to be helpful and servile to others - so our only weapon is our poison - to criticize them back.
14:32 "Change their energy rather than confess them to be a dick" Change - you cannot change other people. We cannot control other people. Thinking we can control other people is cognitive distortion. Also it is not about confess. It is about defense and minimizing contact with evil people. Narcissists hate transparency. So voicing out the elephant in the room, being honest, genuine, authentic, objective and transparent - which includes criticizing their evil actions and reactions is our only weapon to beat sick people. Without drama and explosions. Without goal to have ill wish - the only goal is truth and being true. IF someone is unreasonable and evil - you must address it. Evil thrives when good people shut up and do nothing. In fact, the fact that we are in contact with difficult people means that we were being passed a hot coal. It means that in the past, someone in authority failed to correct and address their evil ways - and now they came to our doors. As HSP, good, nice and kind and friendly people - we will attract garbage. They like clean spaces and clean homes to parasite on. They are parasites. Also - engaging in any exchange and transformation with bully is being inside Karpman Drama Triangle. WE can alternatively opt out of Karpman Drama Triangle. This means to come into mentality that - this bully does not exist for us - it is white noise in the background. This means I can turn it off or say it out loud it is a white noise and it is annoying - without anger, without rage, without fight response, nor fawning and seeking approval from white noise.
17:30 "their insecurity gets triggered, they feel under attack, this is suppose to be your stance, feeling unmatched, Ad Hominem attacks" This is all traits of narcissists.
18:32 "We all think other person is difficult" I think nice, good, friendly people have distorted definitions of Difficult. We self sabotage our defenses and boundaries because we were guilt tripped into thinking wrong what is the definition of being arrogant. This way narcissists taught us to be subservient to them. Trauma will program us to fawn, being exposed to narcissistic abuse.
31:14 "Stop yourself using CBT, stop yourself thinking what other people think" Is pureOCD. In long term this leads to anxiety issues, hypervigilance, chronic worry. IT is immature ego defense mechanisms of ignoring and pretending there is no problem. It is highly unhealthy and dangerous mode and can lead to mental instability. PureOCD techniques tell us that instead of creating rituals against things that worry us - we accept it and we shift focus. Without fighting and without investing time and energy in stopping process. If we worry what other people think - it is a sign of trauma - that we were abused in childhood by untreated mentally ill person in our environment, someone who criticized us relentlessly 24/7 and we were exposed to adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process mentally ill people other than internalizing toxic shame - which now resurface in adulthood as worrying what other people think. The anxiety is related to our need to be helpful - and toxic people shame and guilt trip our mistakes, blunders, which are all normal parts of life - and that is why we worry. They hypnotize us into feeling guilt, shame and worry about our natural and normal mistakes. And we shut up and fawn, so that we do not appear difficult ourselves - since they also distort the definition of being "difficult". Alarming and alerting mentally ill person (toxic, narcissists, manipulators, Machiavellian) is not being difficult, it is our right to defend our mental health and ward off the evil.
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Fight and flight - there is also fawn response, people pleasing and being pushover, learned helplessness and being stuck in Karpman Drama Triangle - where I see myself as victim and all focus is on my trouble, whereas bully is actor that produce bullying - not seen as mentally ill person (someone who is actually uncountable as valid factor) or someone to cut contact with or minimize contact. Without excluding bully as unimportant trash which is truly is - we are making source of our panic as all-powerful and he is directing our choices and life through our antagonism and pouting and resentment.
Hidden fears - yeah, I discovered that mine was criticism of me related to my productivity and being servable and helpful to others. Since I did not know this is the root cause of anxiety, I would conclude I have social anxiety and that my panic stems from loud, obnoxious and aggressive people - which is partially true, however it is not laser pointing to the real cause - and this general fear is creating confusing and anxiety and chronic worry. It is part if unprocessed trauma, being programmed that I have worth only if I prove it by job, tasks and doing something useful - otherwise the trauma message was: I am trash and unworthy if I am not perfect and useful to someone in authority. Knowing this is the true cause of panic - I can question it and doubt it and defend myself with realistic and healthy messages - and eventually cut or minimize contact with toxic people who nitpick and criticize and demand perfectionism due to their own trauma and wounds.
I learned that if we experience chronic worry and hypervigilance, our definitions of homeostasis, balance, difficulties and definitions what is rude or arrogant - it is all distorted and wrong - and it contributes to panic and anxiety and fears and we over-react or even under-react. Labels disable and analysis leads to paralysis.
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(16.3.2022)
People who are too nice are traumatized from narcissistic abuse in childhood, called CPTSD. People pleasing, being pushover, fawning is reaction to trauma. Can you just imagine what happened in the mind of adult person who is apologizing to everyone and afraid to say no and stand up for himself?
You cannot stop it at the press of the button, this is due to trauma being stuck inside the body. In fact, messages to stop it, only increase the toxic shame that was internalized with trauma, along with people pleasing.
Explanation what is the definition of "kind" and "nice" does not help either. This is due to programming in childhood when people pleaser was exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and being exposed to adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process it in any other way than internalizing toxic shame and learned helplessness.
Claiming that when and if you are too nice that "people will take advantage of you" is half information. Machiavellians take advantage of people through guilt tripping and shame. Just look at alpha male masculinity speakers - they can state that the clothes you wear is sissy and gay - and they will control how you dress. There is nothing nice or too nice - they just triggered your personal definition of guilt and shame, lack of self worth and desire to follow herd mentality and groupthink.
Prioritizing others is not always negative - as anything in life is totally negative. When we polarize people or events as black and white - this is sign of cognitive distortion, rather than good mental health. We form relationships through subtle hints of fawning and people pleasing and fawning, so being too nice is not 100% negative. It allows us to achieve interdependency and diplomacy.
Also Jung discovered when we attack and reject parts of ourselves - we will pathologize ourselves and we will develop neurosis and anxiety, chronic worry and hypervigilance. So if you reject parts of yourself that you define as too nice, you will most likely end up with anxiety and hypervigilance, over worrying if you are too nice. This rejecting of yourself will mess up your relationships, because you will always be on guard whether if someone you know is exploiting you. Since human reaction is composed of give and take - you will be obsessed over what they take - and you will always conclude that people is taking advantage of you. This way - being too nice and being obsessed not to be too nice is disordered thinking.
Humanistic psychology tell us that we validate and accept ourselves as we are - including our flaws and mistakes and rejected parts - you will work as one person with your dark shadow. And then you will be happy. Not when you reject parts of yourself that are traumatized and need attention.
When we delve into trauma - we may discover actually that narcissistic abuse messed up our definitions of what is "good" and "kind" and "rude" and that this messed up definitions are causing us to be either too nice. We may discover that due to trauma our definitions of what is productive is messed up - so we frantically try to be productive as primary focus in life - in order to prove we are worthy - and this obsession over proving our worth through jobs and being perfectionist leads us to be too nice. So once we redefine what is definition of good or rude or productive, and create more healthy and balanced definitions, our leanings to be too nice will balance itself out in sync with our balanced thoughts and conclusions and perceptions, rather than being triggered by trauma and neglect and false messages we got from childhood.
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(17.3.2022)
"I don't know what I want from life"
Yep. That is due to toxic shame. We were ashamed when growing up and we internalized toxic shame which is deep core belief we are unworthy, inept and unacceptable. So we turn to external referencing locus of control (other people) to guide us. Toxic shame exports our self worth into other people - and thus we do not know what we want, what we like, what we prefer. Without this knowledge, we fawn and people please others because our self worth is inside other people, it is dislocated away from us. DBT and Humanistic psychology tell us that we accept and love ourselves, all parts we find wrong inside us, that we accept them. This way we will chase toxic shame away. Toxic shame is hallucination. It is not true, we are competent, smart and good as any other person. Toxic shame lies to us that we are incapable to manage life. Accepting ourselves as we are will bring self worth inside us, intrinsic locus of control, and then we will know what we want and what we prefer - and we'll be able to say no to toxic people and toxic environments and toxic habits.
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Yeah, people with trauma and social anxiety - we have wrong definitions about what is "kind", "nice" or "rude" - the definition is totally misaligned and unrealistic, too strict and too narrow - thus our own perceptions, conclusions are problem and need re-valuation. It the fear of making a fool out of yourself, being in spotlight, fear of being evaluated negatively that is obfuscating those unhealthy definitions and render our defense useless. The paradox is that with fears and inhibitions we try to be "normal" and as we were being told to be normal in dysfunctional childhood - and this urge to be "normal", accepted and validate from others, from all people is making us disbalanced and without boundaries.
"To be normal is the ultimate aim of the unsuccessful." - Carl Jung
To make it more complex, being without borders make us also wounded and hypervigilant and thus full of antagonism and in defense mode - and then we end up in double binding - whatever we do, our inner critic will ashame us and guilt trip us into immobility. Because if we speak up, inner critic will explain us that we are rude and arrogant. And if we shut up our inner critic will explain and warn us that we are being attacked and keep us in Karpman Drama Triangle as victims. I see toxic shame as the only culprit that is creating this chaos and disbalance. DBT and Humanistic Psychology tell us that we accept ourselves as we are, that we'll being self worth inside us where is naturally belongs. Accepting and validating our mistakes, flaws and appearing as fool to the point we are comfortable enough with ourselves that we react the point to change and start talking. Narcissists hate transparency and objectivity - and narcissists are the only people who are triggering others into shame and feeling guilt, they are the only external factor that require us to be assertive.
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(18.3.2022)
"Doing things I thought that they want me to do but they never really asked for it. " For me due to social anxiety - came after I was criticized, yelled and screamed at, someone nitpicked over my mistakes or flaws - so I tried to pre-emptively avoid their anger and temper tantrums.
In toxic shame environment - you try to avoid narcissistic rage, and very often your very existence is bothering them, so you walk on egg shelves in order not to bother them and their pressure time and energy by being too loud, or asking for what I need - was not allowed.
At my ex job, the son of our manager who got job through nepotism connections - complained for me making too much noise because I was cleaning with pressure vacuum - and due to noise he was now able to watch car tv show on his laptop. You cannot report him since in toxic countries, bullies are protected - and if you want to keep your job, you have to fawn. In my case, I started being pushover due to this repetitive toxic environment - where someone with superiority complex is exploiting my sense of responsibility and to be productive and helpful - through pinpointing nitpicking mocking and criticizing my flaws, mistakes or lack of experience relentlessly 24/7 all the time as their way to feel competent - and I learned that fawning is the only way to deal and survive the psychological abuse. That is job dynamics at the poor corrupt shame culture countries.
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If we need to set boundaries, this means we waste our energy on defense. So the question is internal and external: Am I over-reacting and seeing danger where there is none in reality? Due to trauma I may do this. Are other people over-reacting and demanding too much, them being unrealistic? Due to manipulation others may accuse/ashame me of being over-sensitive in order to get by with their exploitations.
In both cases, if I turn myself into crusader mode - I will become critic, nitpicking, abusive myself - and I will isolate myself since anything will bother me and annoy me. If someone is constantly and relentlessly crossing boundaries all the time - perhaps it is best to opt out of Karpman Drama Triangle instead of pretending to be victim and holding boundaries all the time.
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It sums up with Machiavellians (narcissistic, psychopathic, manipulative parasites) exploiting our need, urge and desire to be productive, helpful and servile. We try to be good citizens, good worker - and skillfully abusive people will parasite upon this noble desire by ashaming our mistakes, flaws, lack of knowledge, lack of experience -anything that is normal part of work life - they will nitpick, highlight, put it in spotlight, criticize and nag us until we feel toxic shame - internalized belief we are inept, weird, stupid, unacceptable and unworthy. Then they use this hypnotized irrational guilt - that we develop social anxiety, fawning, people pleasing, codependency and inability to stand up for oneself - learned helplessness. People with Complex Trauma (being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse in childhood when our persona and personality develops) are especially prone to become perfectionists.
With toxic shame we don't have inner values, inner worth , self worth installed inside us - since toxic shame tells us we are inept to manage life. Our self worth gets exported into other people through the process of external reference locus of control and trauma bonding. Therefore, problem is not our inability to live - the real problem are toxic people, unrecognized mentally ill people who mock, criticize and nag constantly other people and other people's mistakes. We get self respect back inside us by accepting our mistakes, flaws and anything related to inability to be productive, servile and useful to others. This means making mistakes on purpose to annoy critics. This means being ok with being a fool, being ok with being embarrassed.
Paradox is then when we try to be productive and good and nice - we are actually being taken advantage by toxic people who parasite on this need to be nice, and we are getting and being exploited - and in the end, ironically, we are not productive neither creative nor we take action.
Self worth means being ok with being imperfect and abnormal - when there is no resources to achive normalcy - or our own thwarted, wrong, distorted, traumatized definition of what is "normal".
"To be normal is the ultimate aim of the unsuccessful." - Carl Jung
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Being punched in a face - especially in public place at work (so there is no ambiguity if this person reacted to you being rude or drugs issue) is criminal act. That person should be persecuted. Tomorrow he will kill someone. Physical violence is not allowed in most Western countries - due to a reason of being threat to other people. It is similar to not react to Putin - when you allow narcissist to act in rage - this person will never stop by himself. They will not congratulate you for being a good sport and enduring their abuse.
Yeah, I agree with listening and being kind - it is part of interdependence. However - there is external factor: Machiavellians - people who exploit other people for their own personal agenda. This means, these people employ dark psychology. They lie. So you cannot talk wit them. They provide false, fake information - for you to hook up. Similar to internet trolls. If you listen and be kind to them - you are like donkey with carrot in front of your face - you get hypnotized and under their control. I would modulate listening and being kind - more to the direction of being transparent, being objective, stating facts. Manipulative people hate transparency, truth and honesty - since they are full of secrets and hidden agenda - our ability to speak truth is the best weapon.
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I see people pleasing as sign of trauma. It is not something we can change at the press of a button. What I see with being pushover is that the real problem is not our ability to have diplomacy, peace and mutual respect - but rather the true problem are difficult, toxic people who demand perfectionism and unreasonable fantasies in form of their mocking, demands, accusations of our natural mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge. This gives them power to criticize and complain - since they will nitpick on our mistakes. And natural response is to fawn and people please them. I would abstain from setting boundaries through abuse: criticizing and nitpicking and fighting others. However I would fight the poison with their own poison : which means to appear critical in their eyes. This means, manipulative people hate transparency, honest and being genuine and authentic - they hate objectivity and voicing out the elephant in the room ( something that is obvious but no one is mentioning it). This way we will appear as critic to them - but we will only speak the truth - I do not believe we can have courage with toxic shame inside us. Toxic shame is internalized belief we are inept and unworthy, stupid and unacceptable - and this is exactly parts that toxic people will trigger.
I learned we have self worth by accepting all these things that toxic people push us with: that we accept being stupid, wrong, and that we validate ourselves, instead of seeking validation and approval from others. Due to Complex Trauma (which is people pleasing breeding ground in childhood) we got wrong and distorted definitions of what is "normal" "good" "nice" and "rude".
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I see intrusive thoughts as reaction from trauma. There is trauma stuck in our body that is broadcasting these intrusive worry thought loops. Trauma means that there is ingrained toxic shame belief that appear as reality to us. In my case - this is belief that I must be perfectionist, that I am not allowed to make mistakes, that attracts toxic people who make additional damage - through their toxic shame of my mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge - which they criticize and nitpick. Soon my own brain will try to evade their toxic criticism by producing intrusive thoughts that will try to make me into being perfecta and without mistakes. Which of course is non functional - and pretty soon I will develop social anxiety and avoidance as an attempt not to make mistakes in my inability to be productive, servile and helpful to others.
So I would rather focus on this trauma. The belief and my definitions which are distorted, thwarted, wrong and delusional: what is normal, kind, nice, or rude. It is all modulated to fit original trauma abuse from Complex Trauma childhood - being exposed to unrecognized mentally ill people and thus being invalidated and neglected in times when my persona and personality was being forged and being built. Now I am stuck with unreasonable fantasy ideas what is normal and productive, good nice and what is rude. With wrong definitions I am unable to manage life and communication - and intrusive thoughts are by-products of ingrained toxic shame beliefs.
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(21.3.2022)
"awfulizing attitude. You exaggerate how bad will be if they disapprove you." "Overgeneralizing – multiple instances of being bad again. Self fulfilling prophecy." "Ego anxiety – rate self worth on other people. "
All of these stem from desire to achieve perfection. All of these make sense when we put them in the context of Complex Trauma: where we have been exposed to long term narcissistic abuse (constant and relentless criticism) when we were growing up, in the tender age when we were starting to develop our persona and personality - and all we got is being exposed to adult hysteria and nagging and criticism 24/7. BF Skinner: "Society strikes early, when the individual is helpless"
Solutions : "Stop basing your self esteem on other approval" Due to toxic shame our psyche exports our self worth onto other people, it trauma bonds with others - and we develop external referencing locus of control. Our thermometer is other people - their criticism - exactly as we learned in trauma childhood.
Again, driving motor for toxic shame and exported self worth is perfectionism. Perfectionism is the virus code that is causing all the mess. It shoots our standards into extremes that we cannot achieve and we become tender to criticism, since the criticism/disapproval/negative evaluation triggers unreasonable message what is standard.
Yeah, self acceptance is the key - but if we do not realize that it is because of trauma, we will keep bad habits. Bad habits will keep our ego depletion ongoing. Bad habits being our safety mechanisms that kept us survive trauma abuse, neglect and invalidation. This means, other people - critical and judgmental play crucial role in social anxiety, too. It is not all our fault.
Social anxiety is not a choice. It cannot be changed at the press of a button. It cannot be removed by logic and explanation. We cannot change behaviour by force, classical CBT got it wrong. Third wave of CBT - DBT understood it, as you explained in the video - through self validation and self acceptance. Humanistic psychology is better approach when we need to change behaviour. Carl Roger: “The curious paradox is that when I accept myself, just as I am, then I can change.”
Social anxiety is not bad or negative itself. It starts to be problem when it makes us stuck, immobile - when we are stuck with intrusive worry hypervigilance, amygdala hijackings, triggers and flashbacks. So, to modulate and minimize these extremes that stem from trauma, I would focus on our perfectionism - in order to minimize and to work as relief from social anxiety: this means finding ways to lessen my standards, to re-evaluate my definitions of "good" "nice" "kind" and "rude" - it is all tainted by narcissistic abuse definitions. I would re-define my definitions what I define as "acceptable" and "good enough". I would highlight and focus on finding thermometer that is judging anything. I would focus on who is defining something to be "bad" or "validated" - in most cases it would be critical and judgmental people around me, toxic people that I invite. I would opt out of Karpman Drama Triangle by being honest, genuine, authentic and speaking the truth, being transparent - since toxic people have secrets and hidden agenda. With fears and panic and trauma - we will attract toxic people like moth to a flame - so toxic people play crucial role in our social anxiety extremes. They gives us their thermometer standards and we are totally unaware of it, because childhood trauma programmed us to normalize abuse and we learned helplessness, been trained like circus animal or Pavlovian dogs to ignore red flags and to be macho, avoid being different, weird or sissy - and now as adults we are stuck in avoidance and fears cycles.
Again, I see perfectionism as the key virus code that is running the program of social anxiety panic (I would avoid label disorder - since it is thermometer, self-fulfilling prophecy). The urge to be perfect in anything is creating all the mess in our mind, and consequently our decisions and our actions.
Humanistic psychology and DBT tells us that healthy mind (and our goal) is when we become our own advice giver, our own therapist - when we rely on our own thermometer and when we judge on the basis of common sense, objectivity and scientific truth, rather than our ingrained perfectionism lies.
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Relaxation does not work because of amygdala hijacking. Our brain disengage cortex brain and now we are in arousal state. It is similar to cat getting scared - you cannot pet it to calm down, it has to run it stress program and then it calms down naturally. Calming it down when aroused only makes it more agitated. Social anxiety is part of Complex Trauma - this means trauma is being stuck in our body. Anything similar to original trauma will trigger us into worry and fear.
Talk to therapist - most of them do not know emotional dysregulation facts neither Complex Trauma (since it is not recognized) - so their labels may lead us astray.
Small steps - Will not work if our mindset is stuck in trauma - steps will only prove our fears due to phenomena called Confirmation Bias. It is like your car is stuck with hand brake on. The hand brake will not get unstuck by moving and driving the car - it may even break it altogether.
Think positive - Social anxiety is problem with thinking - so our definitions are wrong. Especially our definitions what is "positive". Due to trauma - neglect, lack of love - our definition of positive are actually safety mechanisms which helped us survive trauma, but now as adults these will lead us to addictions, avoidance and inner criticism. Similar to driving through life with your hand brake on - thinking positive will lead us to intrusive worry and PureOCD issues: toxic positivity - it means we will ignore red flags and stay in abusive relationships.
Exercise - due to fear of judgmental and criticism this is mission impossible - because it puts us in social situations.
The underlying issue with social anxiety is perfectionism - so the ways to minimize perfectionism is the correct way to deal with social anxiety. Social anxiety is not negative per se - it helps us develop empathy and caring what other people think. Without it, we would become narcissist, Trump and Putins - we would abuse other people and put on a fake mask to deal with our insecurities, vulnerabilities and inferiority (areas which we do not know how to do).
I would focus on our definitions of what is "good" "nice" "kind" or "rude". Chances are - our definitions are thwarted and distorted due to exposure to narcissistic abuse when we were developing ourselves as person. It is tainted with desire to be perfect. Perfectionism is hidden mental illness and toxic mentality that is causing and keeps social anxiety ongoing. Beating perfectionism is a shortcut in overcoming social anxiety extreme negative byproducts.
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Excellent message. Yeah, socially anxious people need safe area in order to tackle severe social anxiety, so this is great idea. My first social anxiety symptoms were mutism, inability to utter words when with strangers, I was so afraid to come off weird or stupid. Later on, I would feel fear to chat over internet - even though social situation was obviously only virtual.
I see social anxiety as part of Complex Trauma. We were exposed to long term narcissistic abuse when growing up (someone critical, nagging and complaining all the time, being exposed to adult hysteria in times when child brain was unable to process it other than developing toxic shame and internalizing toxic shame - deep core belief we are unworthy, stupid, inept). BF Skinner: "Society strikes early, when the individual is helpless" Toxic shame exports our self worth into other people and we form trauma bonding - we see other people as thermometer what is good, bad, acceptable. Since there are many people , it means many conflicting orders and commands and definitions - so our psyche cannot make peace with conflicting orders - other than shutting down, avoidance and withdrawal - thus social anxiety is born.
The key is that we bring self worth back inside us - so that we are the ones who decide and define the world, instead of other people. Humanistic psychology and DBT explains that. Carl Roger: “The curious paradox is that when I accept myself, just as I am, then I can change.”
In the end, perfectionism is the core which springs toxic shame and our social anxiety symptoms. Perfectionism is hidden factor that is producing mental instability and with time if unchecked - mental illness. I would focus on our definitions what is "acceptable" - our definitions are lensed and filtered through the harsh judgmental system of perfectionism that was implanted by toxic environment and toxic society around us.
The basic point is - that we are kind, nice people. We have no hidden evil agenda, we will not hurt anyone, we have not ill will nor desire to cause harm to anyone - so basically we have nothing to hide, we have no reason to stay stuck with toxic shame, it does not belong to us. It was implanted and injected into us like a virus. Now it runs it program through perfectionism. The more we minimize perfectionism, the more healthier and better we will feel.
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Social anxiety negative aspect for me is being stuck in intrusive worry, being immobile and shutting up and self censoring myself even when someone is accusing me of something untrue (due to their logical fallacies and biases - jumping to conclusions and scapegoating).
I learned that other people when they appear confident and having engaging conversations - that in reality 1) these people are acting, they have mask, mostly narcissists do this, manipulators and Machiavellians, so they are not so superior as they appear to us 2) other person is probably bored but due to fear of disapproval, people pleasing, herd mentality and groupthink, or urge to exploit the dominant person - the other one stays silent and goes along with yacking and pretending to be pleasant and nice. To third party is seems that they both are friendly, nice, engaging and without social anxiety. In reality "confident" people are full of BS. And it is actually a red flag that something is seriously wrong with loud and engaging person.
I see social anxiety as part of Complex Trauma, we were exposed to long term narcissistic abuse. Criticism is our kryptonite. Negative evaluation and nagging triggers our original trauma. So we can use our poison as a tool to protect ourselves. Quick solution is to appear critical back to abusers. Narcissists hate transparency - this means we speak out the elephant in the room (something that is obvious but nobody mentions it). Narcissistic have hidden agenda always - due to their exploitations - so truth is our weapon and it will appear as criticism to these sick dangerous people who cause social anxiety in others in order to exploit them.
I see toxic shame as virus program that is giving us false reality and thwarted definitions what is Good, Nice, Kind or Rude. So I would re-define our conclusions, rules, perceptions.
I see perfectionism as hidden output of toxic shame that is causing most of ours social anxiety inhibitions. The more we minimize perfectionism - the healthier and calmer we will feel in social life.
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I see people pleasing as trauma response. Yeah, it was the obedience in childhood. This information helps us because many will develop safety mechanism and immature ego defense mechanism in self-blame and personalization. When we realize people pleasing is reaction - rather than our choice, this information puts off huge shaming pressure and weight from our shoulder.
Many people pleasing you tube videos ashame the people pleasers for being pushover - and many videos totally miss trauma information. I've been following this subject for 5 years - and this approach was common advice on you tube: to ashame enough people pleaser into changing behaviour - which does not work in reality, since shaming created people pleasing in the first place. So it is great that you mentioned that it is not about shaming or blaming.
I believe many people pleasers suffer from social anxiety, too but they never dig it up or explore their fears enough to realize it, whereas I see social anxiety as implanted perfectionism. Perfectionism is hidden mental illness that is causing people pleasing astray to worry and hypervigilance. Therefore I see minimizing perfectionism as hidden mental health highway. As we minimize perfectionism, we will come up with better attitude and ultimately change our people pleasing behaviour.
Yeah, many people lack empathy and they actively exploit others - and our empathy and codependency (unrealized interdependence) tendencies make us prime target to toxic people. Toxic people test us in order to see our level of people pleasing. Whereas shutting up and self-censorship is a way we allow other people to abuse and exploit us. Again, I see perfectionism as driving motor that makes us shut up - in order to fulfill our thwarted definitions what is "good" "nice" "kind" or "rude". I would re-define those since they were filtered by perfectionist unrealistic standards imposed by toxic people from our past. ---
People pleasing is deeper issue. Great you highlight this important fact. Usually you tube videos blame the pushover for having people pleasing habits - and this adds up to toxic shame already present.
It is not choice, it is not trait (because we do not people please when we are alone with safe people and/or in psychological safety environment) - it is actually trauma reaction, learned helplessness when we were exposed to long term narcissistic abuse - similar to circus animals or Pavlovian dogs.
I see judgement, inner world - being tainted with perfectionism which makes us hard to love and hard to accept. Perfectionism is hidden mental illness that is stemming from toxic shame and Complex Trauma. With toxic shame internalized we do not know who we are. Our self worth is expelled out - since toxic shame is inside. Self worth is exported into other people - and thus people pleasing is created. Toxic shame tells us we are inept - and naturally other people appear as superior and commanders. With toxic shame we do not know who we are and what are our values. Toxic shame will make us adopt other people's values. So toxic shame is driving motor in this process. It is not something that we can switch off - since trauma is stuck inside our body. Original trauma will be triggered through flashbacks. Usually that will happen when we are being criticized and negatively evaluated and or rejected. I see perfectionism as toxic shame by-product. Perfectionism taints what is important to us. Perfectionism thwarts our definitions what is value, valued, good, nice, kind or rude. I see minimizing perfectionism as quick solution to this complex mess.
With toxic shame we cannot handle conflict - since other people appear superior. We shut up and take the abuse. We self-censor the truth because toxic shame and perfectionism tell us we are never good enough, smart enough to speak out our truth. That is hallucination. We have common sense inside us. With empathy, sensitivity and ability to put other people on pedestal - this makes us good enough to be on par with other people. If we don't have evil agenda, if we do not want ill wish nor cause harm to other people - there is no reason to shut up and self-censor ourselves. With trauma we believe loud and obnoxious people are competent - and this is hallucination, we can burst it like bubble.
I would minimize perfectionism in any aspect - and I see our self worth will return back where it belongs naturally - inside us. Toxic people hate transparency, objectivity and truth - and that is our tool to defend ourselves. With self worth inside us and re-visited definitions of what is "perfect" and "good enough" we will find energy and strength to talk and shift people pleasing habits by transforming them into our persona and personality: being diplomatic, speaking the truth, being honest, being genuine. Where toxic shame once explained us that we might hurt other people by speaking the truth, now we know people will respect us when we are authentic and we will repel toxic people away - since they find truth and transparency annoying and grave threat to their false mask they wear.
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I see problem with boundaries - whereas toxic people lie, they provide false and fake information. They hold smear campaign and scapegoating. Furthermore, toxic people point our mistakes and flaws. They hit our perfectionism. Therefore, they will convince us we are crapping in their garden by pinpointing our flaws, lack of information, knowledge.
I would focus on perfectionism here. Our definitions what is good, kind, nice or rude. I would see if we attract toxic people - it is most probably because we are kind, nice, friendly, empathetic and appear in their eyes as easy target, they perceive us as weak, clingy and needy and they highlight these "flaws". Manipulators are master at this - because exploiting and parasiting on other people is their only source of validation, that makes them toxic.
I see with perfectionism our definitions of what is acceptable is very flexible. Thus we will miss red flags and engage in bad habit and bad people. We will explain that we are overly sensitive and toxic people know this so they will accuse us of being snowflake when we warn and alert them. Again, the problem is that we are not aware that toxic people lie and thwart reality. They base their actions on fantasy world while we judge others through ourselves - so we cannot grasp that there are truly evil people out there. Since abused will become abusers - since we will become what we hate - I would abstain from drama and labelling toxic people as toxic. In the process, we will become toxic because we will see toxic in everything. Again - we will prolong and extend perfectionism into other people. I see perfectionism as the major hidden virus code that is causing all the mess and confusion and chaos. So I would see minimizing perfectionism as shortcut to deal with toxic people. Without expecting ourselves to be perfect kind and super normal people - we will ourselves to be frank, objective, direct - and toxic people hate transparency since their modus operandi is secrecy and hidden agenda. Our transparency and being honest and genuine will become natural repellent for toxic people, where as minimizing perfectionism will allow us to manage life without hypervigilance and anxiety intrusive worry loops.
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Perfectionism is silent mental illness and virus that thwarts our definitions what it good and acceptable.
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I see other people - what triggers us is actually their criticism, negative evaluation and rejection. Critical people will say something that trigger us - which is especially painful for those with Complex Trauma experience.
We are conditioned to be perfect. That is hidden message: that we must be perfect, perfectionist. It is obfuscated with emotions - and we focus on symptoms - and never see wood for a tree: that we have urge to be perfect, conditioned like circus animal or Pavlovian dogs to be perfect.
Perfectionism thwarts our definitions what is good, nice, kind, rude, acceptable. Now enter toxic people who nag and complain all the time about anything. They will nag and complain and criticize our flaws, mistakes and lack of knowledge. That triggers us into feeling toxic shame - and we focus on toxic shame since it is very uncomfortable emotion - well, it is toxic.
I see the real problem is perfectionism - both our ingrained urge to be perfect - as well as external perfectionism implanted and injected from others. Their comment is powerful because they will hit out mistakes and flaws and lack of knowledge - areas where we are vulnerable: we cannot defend ourselves, since they are objectively correct in their estimation. And toxic shame is like veil over our face, gaze over our eyes that gets activated when we are toxically ashamed by others. We will not be able to realize: 1) people who criticize others appear superior but they are extremely insecure and inferior and probably mentally ill 2) that our actions we done wrong are not made on purpose - we simply do not have skills at this moment enough to be perfect and or we lack proper information - and this person is like general after battle - pinpointing our mistakes - but where were they when the action was ongoing? It is probably that they would provide us false and wrong information then. So it is easy to judge when the show is over.
I see our own perfectionism as problem - where we want to appear normal, good, kind and nice. I see also other people perfectionism as problem - as false message from others where they exploit our weak points to make us shut up, self censor and under their control.
I would focus on minimizing perfectionism as road to mental health and getting rid of Sisyphus rock and Atlas weight of the world off and away from our shoulders.
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(23.3.2022)
Toxic shame is when someone label parts of human being as unacceptable. Such as labeling our voice as feminine. So for men, this is when we are ashamed to be feminine, sissy, wuss. In this way, as men we are suppose to be tough and rough - and we are actually being instructed to build false persona - that can make us trap in narcissism. Irony is that overcompensating and trying to appear macho - we are giving up on ourselves and this betrayal of our own self worth is extremely cowardly and unmanly. This means that other people can control us very easily - they can label our voice as feminine - and as reaction we will shut up, we will not speak up, we will pretend and spend time, energy and money on learning how to appear stronger. This reaction can quickly spread into social anxiety and mental instability. We do not realize that by modulating our behaviour and parts of ourselves that actually other people control us through shame and guilt tripping. We become their slaves by our own will - by trying to appear macho and strong - so that we would be accepted by the tribe and community.
I see toxic shame as hallucination. It is a tool that toxic people use to control other people. Toxic shame expels our self worth and we become someone's slave, robot, puppet on a string, zombie. Beneath toxic shame I see perfectionism as the root virus that is the motor of all mental instabilities, anxiety and depression. All people have natural inclination to be useful to others, that we provide and that we are good workers. Toxic people exploit this natural urge against ourselves - and by abusing toxic shame and perfectionism they modulate us into working drones and faceless puppets, without our own identity, authenticity and individuality.
I would see lessening perfectionist standards as a way to mental health and balance and as anti-dote to toxic shame and toxic people.
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unworthy, aware of mistakes - I see it as perfectionism. And perfectionism is here as hidden factor that mess our mental health. It builds up toxic shame and that creates chaos.
I see shadow - not as dark desires or rage or anger - yeah I see it as deeply rooted character flaws - for example mistakes, flaws and imperfectionism - not being able to perform without mistake, where embracing shadow would mean being ok with being embarrassed, fool, making a fool out of myself, making mistakes and being fine with it. Many books describe dark shadow as villain, and aggression - but I believe it is more in the line of caprice and inability to attain ideal standard that TV, media and toxic people try to impose upon us.
"fall short - and you're devastated" - again, perfectionism is behind it. Desire to be perfect. Unrealistic and fantasy goal that was imposed into our minds by mentally ill people, toxic people who ashame our natural desire to be functional and useful to others. I would always ask who sets up the standard, who makes definition of anything? where is this magical book of what is good and approved by general public other than not being unkind nor violent. Answering this question would clear many hidden and mysterious forces in our lives that compel us to perfectionism aka mental imbalance.
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"You give your consent to it and let him into your life." This one made me think deeply. I got message like obligations, definitions from toxic people, what is expected, what is kind good nice - that I must endure toxic behaviour. I don't think it from this perspective: I am giving my consent to bullies. Due to beliefs, perceptions, shoulds and orders and commands that I believe as true. And these appear real and solid to hang on to. While - I don't need to. I don't need to smile and appear pleasant to people who bully me. I don't need to be kind nor aggressive - I have alternatives such as being neutral and say no. From people pleasing habits, I never allowed such alternatives as possibility. "Nod and walk away. Don't have contact, don't have conversation, there's no need to say how you feel" - yeah, that was not in accordance to my learned ideal. I am suppose to explain everything and show that I care especially to people who are abusive and toxic.
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(24.3.2022)
This channel helped me realize perfectionism is behind mental instability (such as social anxiety, avoidance or trauma). I cannot highlight and give appreciation enough how much this realization helped me finally finding answers I sought for so long.
Yeah, people pleasing is seen as manipulative, however people pleasers are taken advantage. This video is describing Karpman Drama Triangle - and that we can opt out of going along with bully's demands.
"They impose an obligation on you and make you feel guilty for not living up to the obligation." Example of this is a person who impose high standards of perfectionism on the target. This may be some woman who hates men, and she will label certain behaviour, clothes or choices in particular men as sissy, weak, wuss and gay - and through this labels she will control the target very easily - since men are conditioned by society to appear strong, competent and macho. This way men can be imposed with guilt and obligation in manly matters - and this makes men paradoxically very easy targets even they appear as aggressive and strong and someone who cannot be moved by someone's opinion.
Guilt can be used as tool of control and manipulation of others. It is hypnotic.
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Due to toxic shame we get our self worth exported into other people - and we are prone to be manipulated through guilt trippings.
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I see problem when we lack knowledge, experience - and this "allows" other people to silence us, people who present themselves as experts. Another problem is when you meet manipulative and toxic person, usually aggressive one described in this video - where their tactics include: - providing false, fake information which you cannot confirm or check immediately or later on - shift goal posts - so they act like carrot in front of donkey leading you in their direction - they abuse our natural desire to be productive and willing to contribute to the team through putting high unrealistic standards of perfection, where they are always in superior position where they nitpick and criticize our natural mistakes and inability to reach imposed standard. If you try to say something - they will simply turn their back and walk away - so your assertiveness of saying your part falls in water.
I would highlight the importance of recognizing red flags of manipulative Machiavellians and opting out of Karpman Drama Triangle. If we stay in contact and try to talk and be assertive with people who care nothing for interdependence and mutual respect, we stay in this drama triangle - so that fact of being assertive victim should be on our minds, too.
Sometimes we can to our best, we can make best conversation and tell all the right things - and still fail. Being assertive is not fantasy freedom that will work every time, neither it is tool that we are forcing ourselves to be saintly saviours and justified Crusaders against evil people all the time. It is always best choice to employ fuzzy logic instead of polarizing mindset - where we must be victorious and correct. Sometimes we get false information and we may be incorrect. I would say being genuine, being authentic, honest - with nothing to hide, voicing out the elephant in the room as best way to be assertive - without drama and explosions nor participating with drama of toxic people. Some people are unreasonable because they are mentally ill, they have private issues, they lack knowledge and experience. Us coming up as all-knowing entities and bringers of justice and peace is really annoying and has totally the opposite effect. I would also say that urge and need to reach some level of assertiveness in the perspective as shield from the criticism and hurt and unreasonable people is form of fantasy freedom and urge to be perfect. I would allow ourselves to make mistakes and be imperfect, whereas assertiveness is guide or GPS where to go, which direction to take in ambiguous situations, not realistic experience in life itself.
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(25.3.2022)
I learned that I believe words of someone who manipulates - all things hijackals do- is due to my perfectionism. I am talking about the need and urge to be productive, to be helpful, to do my job and tasks - where hijackals sniff out this need to be perfect so their job of abuse is very easy: to criticize my standards of work, nitpick details and place unreasonable demands. Now with toxic shame inside me, my self worth is expelled outside of me - and this means I will not have my own opinion, my own standards - and instead it will trauma bond with other people, usually with the critic. This is all complex - but perfectionism here is hidden factor of mental instability. Both inside me internalized and perfectionism being injected by other people.
So solution is when we know this dynamics: to criticize back the critic and to highlight reality and objective facts. Hijackal will abuse higher "cause" and higher goals to approve their right to abuse others through yelling and name-calling. Our need to contribute to society, team and work will make us feel ashamed, so guilt is tool to control us and to hypnotize us into feeling of shame.
Also, I see our weather report being influenced by reactivity which is officially called amygdala hijacking. When we are triggered, we are prone to fear responses - and one of response is being stuck in contemplating and rumination about issue that we were criticized over - we try to correct and modulate our behaviour - which is impossible if demand is perfectionism and unachievable in reality. Therefore, our need to be perfect and hijackal that spreads mental illness of demanding fantasy goals is merged into moral injury - where whatever we say or do will be double binding - nothing will be good enough, ever. I would use these facts as our weapon - being authentic and honest what is realistic. I see hijackal as mentally ill people, aggressive and highly contagious of toxicity. In situations where our Maslow needs do not allow us to cut contact and walk away (finances, shelter, service, safety) - our only defense that is mentally healthy and functional is being transparent, speaking the truth, being objective. Hijackal will try to monopolize reality and impose their unrealistic standards - where our voicing out the elephant in the room is our weapon - and they will perceive objective truth as criticism and attack - it will make them mad. "Nobody is hated more than the one who speaks the truth" Plato.
As Rhoberta said in this video: "Respond with facts". Yes, that is it. Sometimes we might be toxic ourselves, if we are run on our resentment thoughts in loop or when toxic people influence our emotions. In ambiguous situations scientific truth is our only guidance.
We have urge to be productive and helpful and servile to others - and this makes us highly prone to be taken advantage by hijackal who are perfect in exploiting others, people who are kind, nice, friendly, open and industrious. They see themselves as feudal master whereas calm, nice people are perceived as weak and stupid in their narcissistic eyes. They are extremely inferior and have wounds from trauma childhood abuse - but instead of working on empathy - as we all other normal people have done - they decided to cover their past by choosing consciously to abuse other people. They built their worth and value by degrading other people. Unfortunately our own trauma and being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse will make us miss red flags, and it will install toxic shame inside us - making us prime targets for hijackals. I believe we have power and control in many areas - yet we choose to be good and nice and servile to everyone - and this way we attract parasites in our lives - people, bad habits, safety mechanisms - and we need to become aware of these viruses and parasites and start to shed them off. I see childhood trauma Complex PTSD programmed us to believe we are inept (internalized toxic shame) and it distorts our perspective now as adult. We believe if we shut up that people will like us or that we will prevent abuse. This belief is totally false. In reality - people will respect others who are honest and who speak the truth when someone is crossing their boundaries of common sense. When we shut up we are giving green light for bullying to continue. Staying silent will not prevent abuse. Other people will not approve us - and they will criticize us whatever we do. When we stay silent due to peace - we think that there are polar opposite ways : either stay silent or burst in explosions and drama - as if there is no gray area or alternatives. There are. We can voice out the elephant in the room without screaming back at unreasonable persons. We can use grey rock. We can go along with their perfectionist demands in extreme - talking in funny voice and repeating it so it becomes banal and absurd as it really is. Being silent is making us into philosophical zombie and NPC Wojak - emotion-less person without opinion. We will not be approved nor acknowledged - and our trauma programming tells us the opposite - we were programmed to shut up as distorted belief is that other people will respect us when we self-censor ourselves. In reality they won't. People will avoid someone without opinion and who fawns to loud and angry people.
This is all complex and hard to remember when we are being triggered - but I see simple solution - to minimize aspects of perfectionism in any way.
That we lessen perfectionism inside our internal dialogue and in our words, and in our actions, too. For social anxiety - it would be decision to be fine with my mistakes and flaws and being embarrassed in social situations - seeing and knowing that I will make fool of myself in any social gatherings - no matter what I do say or not do. I would see lessening perfectionist unreasonable standards as being ok with being fool, weird and disappointing to others. Paradox is - when I accept myself as I am, I will have more energy and ability to remember do small details - and paradoxically this will make me more perfect. I see hijackals as external factor (similar to our intrusive thoughts and rumination) they are external representation of inner critic. DBT and Humanistic psychology tell us that we become our own agent - inspiration, someone to rely on, to have self worth inside us - and this way we will not seek approval and acknowledgment from others - neither their likes nor dislikes, approval nor disapproval. And with this mentality, we will not be prone to be manipulated by hijackals. With toxic shame we cannot shake off criticism, it stays stuck inside us like leech attached to our body. Our rumination and worry keeps us stuck in worry loop. PureOCD techniques tell us that we shift focus - as a way to remove this being stuck phenomena. I discovered that toxic shame is the hidden factor beneath this being stuck. Toxic shame exports our self worth and then we are unable to stand up for ourselves - since we don't know what we want and we don't feel natural urge to protect our soul. Beneath toxic shame is perfectionism. And in this state we will attract toxic people - who will abuse and exploit us - since without self worth inside us we become puppets and zombies -and then we are easily controlled by guilt. Guilt is connected to our imposed perfectionism and high standards of being productive, helpful and servile to society. This is where hijackals trigger perfectionist standards in form of guilt to control us, to belittle us and that we do things they order us to do - and we will do them because we have no self worth inside us (due to trauma) and we have toxic shame that compel us to perform as perfectionists. I believe as soon as we reinstall self worth inside us - that we will built our own inner resources and ability to defend ourselves against parasites. Self worth is accepting ourselves, with all mistakes and flaws and naturally it means having realistic standards instead of imposed perfectionism imposed by sick people. With self worth I can stay silent without feeling guilty for believing I am weak and abused - since this is the goal of hijackal. With self worth we will recognize red flags and by being totally honest we will repel toxic people - because narcissists hate transparency and truth - since their mode of life is having secrets and secret agenda.
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"In the world full of Putin, be Zelensky".
Toxic people provide false information - so involving ourselves in a conversation with them is actually playing in accordance with their rules of drama and fantasy world where they are superior and others are weaklings. Being transparent and honest and stating facts is our weapon. Critics goal is to confuse us and to make us feel afraid, scared and to shut up. Our weapon is to criticize them back - but without explosions and drama. Instead - we use scientific truth, facts, objectivity and being transparent, voicing out the elephant in the room (something that is obvious and self understandable but nobody mentions it). They will interpret truth as attack and aggression and criticism - their criticism is vulgar and aggressive. Truth is painful only to them because they have hidden agenda and hidden goals to exploit others, because they are parasites - and truth exposes them as parasites, toxic creatures. In their narcissistic minds they are superior and they see everyone as inferior. Truth brings back the balance and sanity - and they will experience health as sickness.
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(28.3.2022)
" I believe it has reached the point in civil aspects where people are too afraid of other's opinions on their own ideas." Nope. Socially anxious are not afraid of people in general neither their opinions in general. This is what Classical CBT thought in the beginning - so they labeled social anxiety as social phobia - thinking it is the fear of people. With time it was noticed that exposure does not help, and problem is more complex than mere Phobia. All phobias are healed by repeated exposure to feared object. With social anxiety we have something else going on. It is not the fear of opinion.
Socially anxious individuals are afraid of specific criticism, negative evaluation and assault from others that triggers and gives flashbacks to the target.
Social anxiety is related to 1) Complex trauma (being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria while growing up) 2) toxic shame (which exports our self worth into others - external referencing locus of control) and when we externalize our self worth by forming trauma bonds with others, we cannot know what we want, we do not know what is definition of what is acceptable to us - so we base our decisions on expectations on what other people would approve - which are various and contradictory and chaotic and ever-changing 3) perfectionism. Abuse and demands from others compel us to achieve perfection so that no one is angry and has temper tantrums. Perfectionism is hidden factor of mental instability - since we never ever can achieve perfection and mistakes are natural part of life. Being flawed is normal. 4) Karpman drama triangle - where we see ourselves as victims and bullies as important factor to whom we must obey, look upon and appraise and appease.
So it is not opinion that is problem. Problem with social anxiety are narcissistic people, bullies, manipulators, difficult people, toxic shaming, exploitation, taking advantage, dark psychology, gaslighting and smear campaign from hysterical people.
The more we are ok with being mistaken, weird and stupid and foolish, not perfect, the more we will trust ourselves and with time our social anxiety will lessen.
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People pleasing is trauma response. It is reaction learned in childhood as surviving mechanism to abusive, hysterical and dangerous environment. In poor country it is going along with mobbing abuse - since you cannot afford quitting your job.
If someone is fawning and being pushover - it is not one sided.. There is abuser on the other side. Someone who cannot handle No as answer without throwing temper tantrum and angry outbursts.
For example - Will Smith shutting up to Chris Rock rude jokes would be people pleasing. Society will judge Will Smith and label him as abuser - while nobody pinpoints at Chris Rock as someone who is bully. Therefore, society likes to punish people who break out of people pleasing mold.
So if we base our opinion, decisions, actions on the society's opinion - we will become zombie, NPC Wojak, faceless person without dreams and character.
Practice Saying No - will not work in all the situations where we are ashamed for our mistakes - and where toxic people exploit our need to be productive and helpful to society and our need to do our job without mistakes and being perfect. Therefore perfection is underline driving motor of people pleasing. External reference locus of control is another factor of people pleasing - where we do not have self worth inside us. Instead, we have toxic shame inside us - internal belief that we cannot trust our own opinion, action and where we look on others to approve and validate us as person. Trauma mess up this mechanism inside us - it places toxic shame - and we become people pleaser in the process. Trauma is something we should look upon. With trauma information we learn that we trauma bond with other people and we seek validation from bullies and toxic people. And we form toxic habits too as our safety mechanisms we learned in trauma years. I would look at minimizing perfection as the hidden resource that will help us minimize people pleasing and external validation. Unfortunately, most self- help gurus, medical community and any resource about people pleasing is giving us false and wrong information - that we ought to say no. Saying no will be hard to do with trauma hypnosis running our decisions in the background. Trauma cannot be turned of at the press of a button.
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(30.3.2022)
I was aware of my toxic shame and being embarrassed and the fact it played huge role in social anxiety. However your video clicked for me - how much ashamed I was of myself, how I appear to others, and this urge to appear perfect plays huge role in social anxiety. Like I ought to appear strong and angry or whatever when I am surrounded by toxic people - and not show up being vulnerable as if I must make an act and play pretend to be not affected when someone is unreasonable and pushy.
I like your authenticity and just being yourself, it is inspiring - it made me realize I lack good role models in my environment. I am surrounded by toxic environment where we ought to wear masks and be ashamed and embarrassed.
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(1.4.2022)
This is complex. As I understand it is connected with self worth. When we are connecting with others, if we have toxic shame - we will export our self worth into other people: seeking their approval, acknowledgment, appraise-apprise-appease them, seek validation since we have no intrinstic locus of control due to toxic shame. I see this toxic shame is connected with perfectionism and natural need to form functional connections with other people. Since we are normal - kind, nice, friendly and open, as we think we are inept, that something is wrong with us (society labelling us as shy for example or people pleaser and pushover due to our need to diplomacy - thus we form toxic shame) - we will attract toxic people. Toxic people sniff out our need to seek approval from others, and our need to form friendships and close connections and they parasite over our flaws, mistakes and weaknesses, vulnerabilities - pinpointing them, nitpicking them and thus prolonging our toxic shame. Since there is absolutely nothing wrong with interdependency and diplomacy, toxic people will brainwash us into shame and guilt that we for example are too sensitive and that we ought to be strong and that we should do anything in life better than we are doing it (thus through perfectionism and criticizing and pathologizing our natural human traits as wrong they are giving motor and energy to our toxic shame). Long story short - toxic people are problem here. Not us. We need to start filtering people out. That's what we need to do. Looking for red flags and start recognizing and cutting contact with toxic people. If we are empathetic - it is very likely that we attracted the whole army of parasites that are nibbling and chowing down on our energy.
Yeah, psychology and sociology will tell us that there are not toxic people really. That is absolute truth - there are wounded people and people who are imperfect and labeling them as toxic we will hurt ourselves because we will reject parts of us that we perhaps might need in extreme situations (when we are attacked and we need to defend ourselves or innocent people around us - and thus become toxic). Technically it would be better to say that there is toxic behaviour, not toxic people. But for us, as empaths - we need to label people as toxic in order to bring awareness that we neglect good and kind people because we are hypnotized into serving and thinking and ruminating over people who behave toxically. Narcissists employ gaslighting, they provide us wrong and false data, they shift goal posts, they nitpick our mistakes and flaws and thus hypnotize us with staying in perfectionism loops, trying to please and seek perfection that they label as ok and good. They use our guilt to control us. If we are kind, nice, open and friendly - we will attract such dangerous people who employ Dark psychology. Without awareness that such evil exists, we will stay within Karpman Drama Triangle. We might step out of victim role and persecute them - but this is still inside Karpman Drama Triangle - unhealthy loop. Perfectionism leads to mental instability - that is what makes toxic people toxic, they poison our mind and our life. I see getting rid of toxic people (people who behave toxically), getting rid of our toxic habits, getting rid of resentment that we build up inside us as response in being in toxic environment - as goal that we need to do as HSPs. We will naturally be open and friendly with everyone and that is great thing. Interdependence is highest form of human experience and cooperation and relationships lead to health and better life. However we have to become aware that we will attract narcissists and manipulators - and we need to build our own protection mechanisms: recognizing red flags and moving away and cutting contact with toxic people (people who behave toxically). That's what we need to do. This lesson is something no one told us when we grew up because society in general is narcissistic and toxic. So toxic people already cut and destroy other people. This is why they parasite over kind and nice people, because everyone else cut contact with them. They seek nice and kind, Amish kind of people to parasite and take advantage of. They try to modulate our psyche and our kindness into their likeness - that we become toxic ourselves. So they will label males as wuss and sissy for example - since toxic shame will make their target freeze and ashamed and target will try to correct itself since it has been pathologized. This happens when we tell the truth and when we are authentic - toxic people accuse us of being weird, over-sensitive : they put toxic shame onto us so that we shut up, self.censor ourselves and that we are subservient to evil and their toxicity. They pathologize our natural traits as speaking the truth and being friendly as being pushover and people pleaser - and we end up being confused, imperfect, inept . we end up with toxic shame. And then we try to change our natural traits in order to fit in what toxic people define as strong, good and superior. We end up being trapped in Karpman Drama Triangle where we are criticized all the time by toxic people.
That's what we need to do - leave toxic people and seek others, people like us instead: people who have no hidden agenda, people who respect others, people who think twice before speaking, people who have no ill will, people who do not enjoy hurting others, people without resentment and holding on to grudges, people who validate themselves and others, people who do not pathologize parts of themselves neither other people who appear different. I see our definitions and perceptions and explanations that we need to stay with toxic people as problem here.
We can still have our codependency habits and behaviors (diplomacy, seeking solutions, helping others) with people who will not ashame us or abuse us or take advantage of us - where we are on par with others. This is called interdependence.
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"Acknowledge what you experience in your body. Legitimacy of our reactions. How we react to our things." Yeah, this is something that resonates with me. I learned this self-validation concept only when I discovered Complex Trauma concept. Without it, I relied on Classical CBT messages and instructions as standard message in self help books and official medical resources for social anxiety.
This is what Classical CBT made damage inside me, for social anxiety. Classical CBT pathologize fears and anxiety and tells that socially anxious symptoms which correspond to trauma are wrong and they instruct socially anxious people to ignore, suppress and remove and reject panic reactions to toxic people. Classical CBT focuses on the panic symptoms as exclusive and only way to tackle emotional dysregulation and amygdala hijacking. Totally wrong approach - since labelling something as dangerous only attracts brain to think more of scary things. Brain is built that way to self-protect itself. It seeks dangerous elements and then grow on this to protect itself. Labeling something as dangerous and focusing on danger - expands this danger into fears and anxiety and hypervigilance.
With Classical CBT focus on panic symptoms - I ended up being pushover and people pleaser - since if I would feel my boundaries were being crossed (someone nagging, complaining, criticizing something about me) I would interpret as my over-reaction and my own problem, as if my feelings are wrong. I ended up invalidating myself - and thus ironically repeating the same invalidation trauma that caused Complex Trauma and Social anxiety in the first place.
And thus I pathologize my natural instincts - and I ended up being codependent - that I relied on other people to other people explain me how I should feel, what other people define what is correct and what is definition of being accepted and normal.
Classical CBT told me that my fears and anxieties and panics are wrong and over-reaction. Classical CBT is still approved as default therapy for social anxiety. I think many people are not aware of this.
I ended up going along with people asking me to do tasks and jobs for them - because I thought that my natural reaction which would tell me that this is exploitation - I would listen to Classical CBT and believed that the problem is my over-reaction and that I should be friendly and nice to everyone, otherwise I would be socially anxious and wrong, as Classical CBT explained it.
I ended up with shutting up and self-censorship if someone was throwing temper tantrums and being unreasonable, rude and aggressive, when others would be asking impossible and unrealistic imperfect standards - since Classical CBT explained that my panic and fears as reaction to toxic people behaviour is sickness. This way I would disregard my natural instinct and my natural reactions as sickness and rejected my core defenses - and I actually formed toxic shame - internalized belief that I am inept to manage and bring decisions on my own since I am somehow wrong by default, too sensitive and too over-reactive.
The basic message of Classical CBT is that other people cannot influence me, and if I feel any type of fears and panic, Classical CBT message is that this means something is wrong with me - if I feel dysregulated! That I should feel strong and stoic when someone is toxic - meaning I should stay in toxic relationships - and if I don't - I am being socially anxious and sick. That the only problem are my own thoughts - cognitive distortions - that are the only factor that is triggering fears and socially anxious feeling of being uncomfortable when in the presence of toxic people. I learned only 2 years ago that this is actually BS message. I've been following Classical CBT messages for more than 20 years. In this way, in my case, psychology done more damage than good.
Only this year I learned that CBT actually progressed from this unhealthy approach of self-pathologizing. There is the third wave of CBT which is called DBT and is aligned with Humanistic Psychology - and with the message you said: that we acknowledge our body reactions - where we accept ourselves, it does not mean that I believe in my over-reactions and panic, I simply acknowledge it and accept anxiety as something normal, normal reaction to abnormal people, abnormal situations, abnormal events, to abnormal event such as trauma in the past.
Toxic shame exports our self worth into other people - and if we ignore our reactions in our body - even when we over-react and when we base our decisions on quick prejudgments, biases and wrong conclusions - we will end up with toxic people parasiting on our insecurities. When we distrust ourselves, we will give up on our ability to lead our life and make our own decisions. We will need instead other people as crutches to explain us how we are valid, ok and good. We will need other people to support us and validate us, since we invalidate ourselves. In a way, not acknowledging our body is form of self hate. This will instantly attract armies of toxic people to parasite over our energy, good will, time, resources and finances. Manipulators will know how to nitpick our mistakes, flaws, our need to be validated and acknowledged and they will pull our imperfections into feeling guilt and thus controlling us and manipulating us through criticism, gaslighting and smear campaign and honeymoon periods.
So yeah I would see this acknowledgment and legitimacy of our body experience concept as very important aspect of mental health and well-being.
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"As body rejects foreign object, you reject this foreign experience. Love, kindness – "that is boring", "that does not excite me". That's because you are not encoded with patience, kindness, compassion and empathy."
In toxic environment, we can get surrounded with toxic people who define toxic masculinity and label me as wuss and weak because I am kind. They reject me as peacemaker or diplomacy as something foreign and dangerous to them. With toxic shame inside me, I believe their messages and conclusions and definitions - and then I will start to reject myself, part that other people label as weak and wuss and un-acceptable. Without information about encoding, I believe toxic people and I will export my self worth (definition what is ok, acceptable and normal) into other people - and I will accept their words, opinions, conclusions and definitions as my own standard - and then I will end up with more toxic shame, anxiety, fears and guilt. Which they will criticize again - and keep me in cycle of fawning, people pleasing, seeking their approval and validation.
"You have not been encoded with healthy attachment. You have been encoded to fear abandonment. Not your fault. How that shows up: we fawn, stuff emotions, can be controlling, rigid, we can't let go, everything is difficult to let go." Yeah, I can't let go when someone is angry at me. I cannot let go, it stuck on me, like a leech. I did not realize until now that this is due to unhealthy attachment, fear of abandonment, that it is related to fear of abandonment. I was surprised that I can use Block option on Twitter only couple of months ago! I've been on Twitter since 2009, I was afraid that if I block people who are annoying or rude that I will be less of person, that I am wrong if I block them, that I am weaker person if I am not stoic and not strong enough to tolerate abuse and negativity. Thus I cannot let go of toxic people, because I was brough to believe I must be strong, enduring person to show off as super man by tolerating abusive and obnoxious and aggressive people.
"We taught others to be narcissistic – you smashed car DUI, it's ok." Whoa. This is huge eye opener to me. Yeah, total truth. I thought it was other people - but if I shut up and approve and fawn - I am building up narcissistic world around me without being aware of it. I was convinced that I cannot control other people (by expecting others to be kind and nice) - but reality is that not doing anything and by fawning to them, being ok with abuse and rudeness - is the form of control. I am allowing them to be rude when I shut up and self-censor myself. I think I am being peacemaker and that I am not rocking the boat. The boat is still being rocked - by them and by my silence. I thought if I stay silent that I will not cause disorder. But other people will cause disorder without my criticism and speaking the truth and without my warning what is wrong and outright not acceptable.
"Look if you experienced feeling of abandonment, feeling of not being good enough" Yep, my social anxiety started with that - kids bullying me and leaving me all alone, and then me feeling not being good enough, by being labelled as sissy and weak.
"Look at whether or not you've ever experienced a feeling of abandonment. A feeling of not being good enough. Do you carry shame of abandonment – you can break through this, you can fix this." Yeah, in shame culture this is being exposed and surrounded about not being good enough all the time.
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"My behavior might need improvement. They say 'Don't do that' – that would be healthy response. But if I am being abused because of behaviour I did, that's not acceptable. Ever. Discern I do not deserve this treatment." Whoa. This makes sense - because toxic people nitpick on mistakes, flaws and my lack of knowledge when I do something for the first time or rarely - they expect me to be perfect and then they criticize and ashame me for not being perfect. That bothered me and I always felt ashamed, inept, and unacceptable, I felt toxic shame, that I cannot rely on myself - and their criticism proved me that they are superior and better than me - and I must fawn and people please and shut up to them, since I believed I deserved to be treated like garbage for honest and unintentional mistakes. Now I know - nope, even though I might not know something and even if I make mistake - I still have dignity and respect to live and exist, I do not need to give up my right to be on par with others. In shame culture - this is something I was taught since kid - that me not being perfect, me not bothering other people, me not making mistake means I can pass and it is partial approval that I might leave the house and be around the people. Otherwise - I suppose to be toxically ashamed.
I am talking about example of learning to drive where I was verbally abused, shouted and yelled at by driving instructor for making faults while learning to drive - driving to close to the bush in a narrow street or driving by the rules but driving over the dirt - I was shouted and cursed at. That is mostly education and doing any job in toxic environment, toxic country.
"Maybe I am not even the problem. Common what we think problem is I am needy. I said no – now I am selfish. These are not problems. These are normal aspects of relationships. I have needs, limits, capacities – you will say no to things, that is normal human thing. People who are entitled these things become weaponized against us" Yep, that is what I am talking about. Yes, that is it. Geez. I read so many self help books, trying to look for explanation what is wrong. I never got it in 20+ years. That is it. You are explaining it.
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", they will end up controlling us" That is complex. What happens when you are in company of toxic person who employs humor and thus present his face as friendly and humorous. So they provide false information, exploit your energy, your time and focus, they shift goals and they mock your faults, mistakes and lack of knowledge - while presenting themselves as angels. You will end up in agitated state. You will feel hyperalert, anxious, that something is wrong while in the same time you will get gaslighted by the source problem that you are the problem for feeling these agitations. That is narcissistic relationship. This is how manipulators suck dry their targets. This is dark psychology. So they weaponize your mistakes against you. They abuse your need to control your emotions against you. That is what toxic people do. They are parasites. Toxic people will parasite over your need to not rock the boat, to appear friendly and to make relationships with everyone. that is the real problem here - that we as society are not being taught to recognize red flags of dark psychology. Instead - we are being instructed to be passive, to be normal, to be kind, to nice , to not over-react and - guess what - with time we will become slaves to toxic people, their zombies. They will control us, by abusing guilt and our need to be normal. So yeah - you can be controlled even when you try to control your emotions. Toxic people are excellent in manipulation and control, their only source of happiness is getting skilled in controlling other people. They are masters at this - and we have to become aware of them and learn red flags to recognize them. Our support and enabling of toxic people allows them to abuse and exploit others.
Narcissists hate transparency, honesty and truth. They agitate you so that you explode, like Will Smith. The objective truth is - mocking other people who are different is sick,, it is mentally ill. People who are older than 12 years old and mock other people as humor and comedy, especially sick people - are sick themselves, they are toxic. They are the problem.
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(2.4.2022)
"And I can think about how our children's children will despise us for wasting all the future's fuel" Most people are children trapped in adult bodies. It is hard for them to think. It is hard for them to have empathy and to watch out how they behave and it is hard for them to think about ecology. IT is really hard to do these things - to be silent, to be quiet, to think about other people around them and to be careful where and how they handle garbage and waste. Without discipline - and their instinct and urges dominate their minds, like animals, without thinking in the future - since it would produce anxiety and hypervigilance, and they can't handle it. They will label other people as snowflakes and over-sensitive for thinking about "small" and "insignificant" stuff and that it is easier to not have conscience for them - whereas in reality they are truly snowflakes and overly sensitive themselves, since it is hard for them to be adult, grown up person. IT is much easier to be irresponsible baby who do not care and think for others.
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(4.4.2022)
I would also focus on the people on the other side and learning from where we actually learned these unhealthy and dysfunctional safety behaviours.
If we focus only on our safety behaviours - we will end up with more of toxic shame, because toxic shame is ingrained toxic belief that we are weird, stupid, unacceptable and inept. So toxic shame will make us think that we think we are the only ones with safety behaviours - we will feel worse for being "different" and inept to be "normal" in social situations. This focus on our panic tactics will inspire more panic. Toxic shame is important factor and motor that is fueling social anxiety since it exports our self worth into other people's opinion and their criticism as the most important thing in the world.
First, we learned these safety behaviors because when growing up, when we were suppose to develop our persona, we were in toxic environment without love and with a lot of neglect and invalidation. It is obvious that we learned safety mechanisms as a response to abnormal people, abnormal situations and abnormal events such as relentless criticism 24/7 while we were growing up in times when mistakes are natural - since everything we do is for the first time, and of course it will not be perfect.
Second - I see social anxiety as inner alarm and danger detection mechanism - and if we were traumatized in the past, if we were exposed to narcissistic abuse - our learned responses that trigger this inbuilt HSP alarm will be our safety mechanisms: fawn, people pleasing, trying to be perfect - all in order to avoid triggers: other people's criticism and their anger, their mocking or attack or their aggression. Perhaps - other people around us are really toxic and our reactions are natural responses to them. Sometimes these people criticize our mistakes, flaws, lack of knowledge - something we have no control over - so they make us feel shame and guilt - which will produce safety mechanisms inside us as response to unfair, brutal and tyrannical treatment.
In this way, I would accept our safety mechanisms that are mature: mature ego defense mechanisms such as humor or ignoring or tolerating. However these are still responses and yeah, they will contribute to hypervigilance and anxiety in the long run. They will not make anxiety go away. I see our reaction as problem here - where how we react to toxic people. We never learned love - so we react to discomfort and unknown situations from learned fear. I see social anxiety as imprint of mentally ill people in our lives while we were growing up. We picked up their mentally unstable mechanisms as reaction to their abuse. Just as they learned to when they were abused in their childhood. The difference is - that we did not surrender to the dark side. We did not develop narcissism, psychopathy or desire to abuse other people. Instead we developed safety mechanisms in order to keep ourselves sane, normal and kind while surrounded by chaos and insanity.
Toxic people are people who are unreasonable, irrational, who manipulate, who have hidden agenda, people who move goal posts, people who take advantage, people who bully others, mock others. They handle their anxiety and wounds by hurting other people, it gives them limited supply of energy when they successfully abuse others. So as predators they will sniff out kind, nice, quiet, friendly and open people like us, with social anxiety. We will attract these parasites in our lives - and in this way - toxic people around us will keep our safety behaviours ongoing - since they will trigger us into confusion and defense mode, being unable to ground ourselves. Since their only resource for life is draining other people, they are very successful at mechanisms of keeping their targets in Karpman Drama Triangle - through gaslighting, smear campaign and love bombing, honeymoon phases.
I believe due to trauma and narcissistic abuse - we never learned to love and accept ourselves, so we have no self worth inside us, we have no intrinsic locus of control. Instead we learned toxic shame and external reference locus of control, where we see other people as superior, while we are inept, stupid and inferior. I believe as we accept ourselves as we are - we will build up our self worth. This means accepting our panic and rely on our own inner resources to make decisions in life, instead of codependency on toxic people to guide us in life. With self worth we will be less perfectionist and thus we will naturally less care about other people's criticism and unfair treatment - where our value will be derived from within, rather than seeking approval and validation from toxic people.
With self worth inside me I will be more able to wear something bright and bold. I will not react and base my worth on other people's like or dislike, other people's approval or disapproval. The more I am fine and ok with myself as I am, with quirks and perks and caprices and differences - I will naturally shed off safety behaviours away.
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From my own experience this exposure did not help me to get rid of social anxiety. IT helped me to lower somewhat of panic symptoms - and left me with toxic shame still inside me (toxic shame being motor that fuels social anxiety). I also developed plethora of people pleasing mechanisms, fawning as automatic response to toxic people, toxic behaviour from toxic people.
I see the problem is toxic shame - ingrained belief I am abnormal, different, inept, stupid, unacceptable - whereas other people (Especially those who appear fearless) are superior, role models and better and competent for anything. This belief made me attract toxic people - narcissists who put on fake mask and pretend to be strong.
With no self worth inside me - if I face my fears - it will be like driving with your hand break turned on, as Maxwell Maltz said: "Low self-esteem is like driving through life with your hand-brake on."
Exposure did not help me to get self esteem since behind social anxiety is Complex Trauma - we learned unhealthy patterns from mentally ill people in our childhood (being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when child brain is unable to process it other than developing toxic shame and immature ego defense mechanisms).
I would also focus on self worth and intrinsic locus of control- with Complex Trauma I learned concepts such as Polyvagal Theory and amygdala hijacking - where I learned that when people experience something frightening to them - their brain will switch off cortex part of brain - and we will only function from the safe mode. This may include fawning.
I did not know this fact. I only knew from classical CBT that I have to do exposure. So - with each exposure I convinced myself with hidden and masked toxic shame - that I am inept, stupid, different and abnormal - while in fact I was only operating from my lizard brain all the time. In this way I was pathologizing myself.
Action is healthy. Action is anti-dote to long term exposure to narcissistic abuse. However, long term exposure to narcissistic abuse set us up so that even when we are active - that we have distorted and thwarted thought patterns inside us due to toxic shame. Toxic shame set us up for safety mechanisms while we are active and outgoing. With toxic shame we will develop pureOCD and rumination and hypervigilance as we expose ourselves.
Anti-dote to toxic shame is self worth, third wave of CBT is DBT. Humanistic Psychology existed long ago before classical CBT - and I see self acceptance and self-validation as proposed by third wave of CBT and Humanistic psychology as better and healthier therapy than Classical CBT for social anxiety.
Self acceptance means being fine with our mistakes when we are active. Self validation means we base our worth on ourselves, rather than seeking approval from external. Self love means we lower perfectionism and we cut off toxic people and toxic habits out of our lives when we are active. When we expose - we will attract plethora of toxic people, manipulators and swindlers - because the trauma taught us to be subservient to narcissists. Trauma taught us to fear people and to hate ourselves. Trauma taught us to develop toxic shame and perfectionism as dysfunctional tools to deal with life problems.
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Classical CBT proposes that social anxiety came out of nowhere, that socially anxious people choose to interpret danger where there is none in reality.
The truth is that social anxiety is alarm system - some people are HSP, like some alarming birds that stay away from flock and warn all of them when predator is near. The truth is that social anxiety is by-product of Complex Trauma: being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when growing up and being exposed to adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process the abuse other than developing toxic shame and immature ego defense mechanisms such as introjecting (soaking up other people opinion). Social anxiety is learned trauma reaction to long term narcissistic abuse, it is normal reaction to abnormal people, abnormal situations and abnormal events. With long term narcissistic abuse (nagging, criticizing, complaining, controlling the target) - people will develop toxic shame. Toxic shame is internalized belief we are inept, stupid, unworthy. Toxic shame is motor that keeps social anxiety ongoing and it distorts our perceptions. Toxic shame will keep us to trigger and have flashbacks to situations similar to original trauma, and this will keep us in cycle of rumination and PureOCD, hypervigilance.
There is third wave of CBT and Humanistic Psychology also- focus on self worth: that we accept ourselves as we are, with all our panic and fears. Anti-dote to PureOCD is acceptance of our worries, rather than fighting them. In the same way, self validation and self acceptance are anti-dote to social anxiety panic attacks. The point of having self worth is that we choose to do things in our life, focus on our tasks and jobs that we like, that we focus on good people in our lives, rather than trying to solve problem that toxic people will force us to solve. With anxiety and toxic shame, we will attract toxic people in our lives and we will develop toxic habits - which will keeps us in cycle of social anxiety, feeling embarrassed all the time for our mistakes and flaws or lack of knowledge.
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Sounds more like Schizoid. Avoidants love people and they love having friends and parties - but in the same time they are afraid of criticism, negative opinion and nagging and complaining and toxic people in general. Avoidants desire social contacts but negative people drain and scare them quickly. Schizoids do not desire social contacts at all.
Avoidant is connected with social anxiety. Whereas schizoids as you are saying yourself - go outside (soccer, garden etc) without hangups or inhibitions, they simply can't stand people and get angry.
Avoidants instead of anger develop fawning, people pleasing and seeking approval and validation from others, which can be very painful and unfair experience depending on toxic people around them. Your anger will protect you from being exploited and being taken advantage of, however without connection and desire to form connection, schizoids on the other hand miss opportunity to learn from others and to develop new ideas - since due to bias we tend to be stuck in tunnel vision and ego-centrism which is very limiting. People are born to be interdependent and to form connections.
So the balance is between expressing anger - when other people are unreasonable and avoiding over-reactions when being triggered to do so. Balanced life is being honest and authentic while in the same time being kind and civilized with empathy to listen others and cut contact when others are not listening to us.
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Yeah, I see social anxiety as one big safety mechanism from trauma in age when we were growing up. Instead of love, validation and care - we received sterile, neurotic, perfectionism and shaming - relentless criticism 24/7 and being exposed to adult hysteria when child brain is unable to process it other than developing immature ego defense mechanisms.
As I understand Classical CBT ignored the roots of social anxiety and focused only on symptoms of panic. I see this approach totally wrong - since it does not tackle the root of evil and dysfunctional thoughts and mechanisms we repeat as adults.
I see third wave of CBT, called DBT and also Humanistic Psychology as anti-dote to social anxiety, trauma and avoidance. That we accept ourselves and validate ourselves, when we accept our imperfections. Also, when we dissipate toxic shame with self worth inside us by being ok with being myself - we will be able to shed off toxic people, recognize red flags and validate our alarm system as recognizing toxic people - and we'll be more immune to toxic habits and toxic thwarted thinking.
Problem is that people with social anxiety will personalize and feel guilty for having anxiety. When we understand that we were conditioned like Pavlovian dogs into anxiety and hypervigilance - it was not our choice nor our fault - and we will feel less ashamed for anything we find imperfect in ourselves and others, and we will throw away irrational guilt that we hold on our shoulders like Atlas.
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(5.4.2022)
I learned with retrospection and analysis that the shadow (AKA the unknown dark side of our personality) is not necessarily violence neither aggression nor being angry, rude or anything in fight response. In fact, it is mainly what the herd mentality and group think does not tolerate: being afraid of being labelled wuss, being labelled as weak, seen as mistaken, wrong, when we think we are being criticized and embarrassment we feel - all this is shadow. It is connected to toxic shame. Once toxic shame is internalized, when we believe we are unworthy and inept due to these labels from general society and critics - who based their labels on mental shortcuts (biases and prejudices imposed as ultimate truth) is when we will export our self worth into others - and we will try to be like everyone else, in order to fit in, to avoid being lonely and toxic shame will keep us in cycle of seeking approval and validation from the external - which can never ever be satisfied. So in time we will become people pleasers and fawn to others, being afraid of thinking, expressing ourselves and we will become abnormal in our attempt to be normal - to be accepted by general society. Accepting shadow therefore means accepting our caprices, quirk, perks that may be labelled as wrong, stupid, weird, wuss, weak, mistaken and unacceptable by the critics. That's what shadow is. It is not about being violent at all.
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(6.4.2022)
I was convinced that I avoid conflict. I never looked at it without fears and panic and in this way I did not see clearly what was going on. Now I know.
It is not about avoiding conflict. Problem is toxic person on the other side. Toxic people are unable to make friendships, cooperation and interdependence, since they are mentally ill, selfish and narcissistic - so in order to achieve attention, recognition and that anyone talks to them - is they invent conflict and confrontation. Since they built their whole life about parasiting on normal and healthy and friendly people who are open to others, toxic people learned how to trigger others. They learned in early age that most people will shut up if they scream and throw temper tantrums. Most people will enable them through going along with any demand that is voiced through screaming, yelling, threat and cursing the target. Second element that toxic people learned in early age (so they had decades to make it perfect) is that they noticed that most normal healthy and friendly people are productive. Most people try to to their best and most people focus on being perfect, do things in correct manner and to serve and help people. This is normal and this is part of interdependence - there is nothing wrong in helping others and being your best in your job, task and any service we do at hand. However - toxic people learned that they can trigger and manipulate people when they tackle into this normal human need to be helpful and productive. Toxic people learned that they can manipulate people when they trigger their target's perfectionism. So they nitpick and criticize anything we do. They achieve two main goals with this method: 1) they shut up the target, due to blame and shame and 2) they put themselves into superior position where the target is inept, stupid and unacceptable constantly and all the time. Criticism triggers shame in most people - and they criticize our mistakes and flaws and lack of knowledge (since we are not Gods - we cannot know all)..
Then they initiate conflicts and confrontations - and we shut up since they shame our mistakes. We then play victim role in Karpman Drama Triangle. IT is not that we do not choose to enter into confrontation - it is about us being manipulated into irrational guilt and toxic shame. I would address toxic people as the only problem here. They do not care for solution. They do not care for other person since they are unable to feel empathy.
I would focus on our awareness how toxic people affect our mental health, and if someone is causing conflict all the time - it is time to cut contact with these parasites - as the only and best solution to conflict.
When we have no other choice but to enter into conflict - this information about toxic people helps a lot. Toxic people use criticism as their tool - so their kryptonite is criticism. We simply criticize them back. Without explosions and without drama: being honest, being transparent, like scientist - voice out the elephant in the room (them being mentally ill narcissists) and stating fact by fact whatever they did or failed to do. When we are inside Karpman Drama Triangle we focus on our shame and guilt and thus we render our defense useless. Our defense, voicing out the elephant in the room would be - stating their false information that they provide, their fantasy goals and shifting goal posts, their irrational definitions, them being tyrannical and ashaming, them being jerks and alarming them to stop. They trigger our toxic shame and with emotional dysregulation we feel wrong and we seek them to explain our reality and offer their own definitions about anything in life. so - We forget simple statements such as: "I disagree with you" or "That was unnecessary".
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Problem is that selfish people are manipulative. They must be manipulative since everyone dislikes selfish people - so they must attain attention and get acknowledgment and appraise and approval - even if it comes from the negative behavior. So - they learned how to get attention in negative way: by criticizing others, by nitpicking other people's mistakes and flaws and lack of knowledge.
In this way they get recognition and approval from herd mentality and groupthink, where most people do not think logically what happened - but instead jump to quick conclusions, biases and logical fallacies - so they project their inadequacies on easy targets: bullying someone who is imperfect and who made a mistake. That is how toxic people run out themselves and get recognition. Through manipulation and exploitation. Through blaming and ashaming others who are different or mistaken (everyone who is active and working is makes mistakes - mistakes are natural - but they make drama out if it and ashame it). Thus they are parasites. But in their presentation, they appear as advisors, someone who is clever enough to notice mistake and even helpful since they notice "wrong" people. This way we attract and support toxic people without even being aware of it.
In their toxic minds they see nice and kind people as weak. They interpret quiet people as inferior. They think they are winning and get their way because they scared kind people into silence and perceived obedience. In their head this is winning, while in reality they are pathetic - since they parasite over people who value peace and diplomacy and cooperation.
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Just imagine what trauma had to happen to adult person who is too nice for its own good? Being too nice is not choice, it is not something you change at the press of button, over night. It is symptom of trauma: being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse. It is telltale sign of being in contact with unrecognized mentally ill person who is abusive and potentially criminally dangerous (prone to violence or worse).
Blaming the target for being too nice does not help - it adds up to already present invalidation.
Too nice is tip of the iceberg here. Too nice is having toxic shame inside, instead of self worth. Toxic shame is thwarting and distortion thoughts, definitions, conclusions and perceptions about what is good and acceptable, normal and approved.
Anti dote to toxic shame is self acceptance - and paradoxically this means that we accept ourselves as being too nice. Carl Rogers put it “The curious paradox is that when I accept myself, just as I am, then I can change.” By being too nice, actually it means we deeply inside chose to be good kind friendly instead of being narcissistic and mentally ill. Once we accept ourselves as we are, we will be able to built self worth inside us. And with self worth inside us we will protect ourselves, we will shut off toxic people and toxic habits - and we will re-define what is normal behaviour in social situations. Carl Jung: To be normal is the ultimate aim of the unsuccessful.
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There is no mention angle of trauma factor - where being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse you are conditioned like Pavlovian dog into obedience, subservience, fawning, people pleasing and being pushover. Where your body is conditioned to release hormones and chemicals of stress when you express yourself, and when dopamine is released when you avoid confrontation.
In this way you cannot set boundaries - since your body drugs you through panic and rumination and irrational guilt when you set boundaries. With toxic shame you do not have self worth - so you can kiss self esteem good bye. With toxic shame you cannot do more things that make you happy - since you have no self worth inside to know what you like or dislike. With irrational guilt hypnotized through the decades of toxic shame you can't set limits.
I see acceptance of oneself - including safety mechanism as people pleasing as a way out of- we can only change when we accept ourselves as we are. Shaming and nitpicking and labelling parts of ourselves as disgusting and dangerous - will not stop it, it will make it more powerful and stubborn.
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I see it like this: if we have trauma from childhood - long term narcissistic abuse (being exposed to adult hysteria when child brain us unable to process it other than developing toxic shame) and bully events - we will attract toxic people in our adult life. We will see them as strong and we will make excuses for their rude behaviour. Also, we will develop inferiority complex - and we will be convinced that we are inept to seek another job - thus stay stuck with toxic people - as we were being instructed by untreated mentally ill people in our toxic environment when growing up.
It is not about being nice. We are not problem here. This is not issue at all. Problem are toxic people. Problem is our inability to recognize red flags to detect them. Problems are our definitions what it "normal". We cannot change other people. We cannot control external life. We cannot control events outside of our control. That's how I see it.. With toxic shame we will believe that boss opinion is important - being good or bad, validating or invalidating. They are not important. I did not come to job being a friend with a boss. Job is there to be done. It is not psychology therapy class neither support group. You do your job - if the environment is fair and correct, you stay and contribute to community. If not - you seek other job - or perhaps create your own. With toxic shame we will believe it is important what other people think and how they define us, and what they think of us. They are not important, our locus of control must be internal, otherwise we will never be happy.
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I see it like dualism. We live in dualistic world and no body tells this truth. Neither in education system nor in daily media. There is no absolute truth. Yet we are instructed to come up with the truth - mostly by copying other people and going along with herd mentality and groupthink. Problem is we have external locus of control, where other people define for us what is "normal", accepted, macho, strong, good- we neglect our own intellect, our own gathered knowledge - and instead we succumb to social pressure, usually through toxic environment around us, since toxic people are prone to be aggressive, wear mask to appear superior and thus attractive to us. We literally make ourselves into sheep by being afraid of being authentic, different and being afraid of practicing our true inner knowing.
Everything in life has its pros and cons. Everything. And we are not told this. We are told to be obedient and to be afraid of being lonely. This makes us attractive targets to be exploited and be taken advantage. For men, easiest way to control men is to trigger their shame related to masculinity. So if you tell some guy that their t-shirt is gay, they will never wear it again due to fear of being seen as "unaccepted" and "abnormal". Needless to say that being gay is normal and not shameful, and that you cannot change or modulate your sexual preference by fashion. So people can mess up our logic and we are guided by social pressure. So someone can say we are cowards or over-sensitive - and they will control us.
The only problem here are toxic people. Unrecognized mentally ill people, untreated dangerous psychopaths who mess our mind up with toxic definitions and orders about how we suppose to be, they trigger our toxic shame - and then they control us.
Anti-dote is to have self worth - which means being ok with whatever I am, accepting myself with all mistakes and flaws and lack of knowledge. Anything other than that - will lead to being controlled by irrational guilt, and toxic shame, people can hypnotize us into being their servants by pulling parts of ourselves that we label as weak, unacceptable and shameful.
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(8.4.2022)
" if we have limits, they get upset" Yeah, that is it. They cannot handle different opinion, too. It must be their way or highway.
Embrace limit - yes, that is the root of disorder. Being guilt tripped into changing myself so I can fit in into orders and labels of narcissistic toxic people. That I was unable to define what I cannot do - where toxic people will nitpick on my sense of duty and being helpful and doing the job done - they transform it into exploitation and feeling shame and guilt when it is not done in the exact way as they want or envision, which is always without empathy or common sense. Their manipulation makes us focus on solving the puzzles and orders they come up with - while we are totally unaware of limits and expressing limits and defining limits what is reasonable. They focus attention on us being inept and demanding perfection - where we are unable to be perfect for whatever reason. And we are made into problem, usually through put downs and verbal abuse.
"Limit is natural, normal thing" - this is not message I got in my life. The explanation I got is that I must do what I have been told, whether it is possible or real it does not matter. I ended up spending my own resources to meet goal posts. When I started working I would by from my own paycheck necessities that people asked me to provide for them related to the job. I've done it out of fear of their rage when I would suppose to tell them that company has not resources - such as equipment they need. My instruction was that there are no limits in what I can provide, I must have everything and fear reattribution if I do not comply. It took me 6, 7 years to realize I can say no to unreasonable requests, that nothing catastrophic would happen... And then afterwards I would still comply - related to non-material resources such as my time. At the time I did not this is called codependency and lack of self love and that it was trauma. From self help books and official medical resources I was told I had social anxiety, and that I beat social anxiety by exposure and being among people. And that if I feel anxiety and feeling that something is wrong (such as toxic people demanding unreasonable requests) - I was explained that this is my over-imagination and anxiety fantasy, and that all people are nice and good, that they do not hate me, and it is my anxiety imagination fantasy when I feel that they pass my boundaries. In this way official psychology through Classical CBT is contributing to exploitation and taking advantage, since they do not recognize existence of toxic people who exploit others, easy targets, someone who is afraid to say no. I was being explained that my fear of saying no is social anxiety fantasy and imagination, and I should be happy and cheerful and engage in social contact no matter how scary people may feel to me. That if I cut contact with those people I was being told that this is social anxiety and I am isolating myself which is bad for the psyche.
In this way I started to realize that Classical CBT (molded in the greedy Reagan 1980s) was based on greedy corporations and money business who financed their therapy construction, where nice, quiet, cooperative people are seen as drones and slaves to toxic management - where you are suppose to shut up and do your work as being told, without identity or human dignity. I guess in the 90s, psychology community was pressured into doing something with workers who declined to work in mobbing environment, toxic management - and how to get back workers back into place where they are being ashamed, attacked, mocked and molded into drone and slave and yet give enough psychology information to keep your mouth above the water so that you do not have complete breakdown. This is how I see Classical CBT and their response to people with anxiety in social settings, because official medical community completely ignores toxic people factor. We can see this in Complex Trauma not being recognized as official condition. I see if CPTSD was recognized as official medical issue, this would lead to the question of narcissists and how we limit narcissists being in the place of power and authority. So I see codependency as much more deeper and with much more sinister social scale background, that is related to much larger scale than it appears to the individual caught up in unhealthy alcoholic "love" relationship suffering from fears of how other (over)react to us when we set limits.
I see shame culture countries as places where toxic people thrive. People who feel entitled and lack empathy into realizing how they exploit others and that it is not ok to treat other people as garbage no matter how irritated or annoyed or justified in their anger they might feel.
"Become very limited, become very defined." Yep, this is the core of problem where I was being told in environment and official medical resources such as Classical CBT - that my limits are wrong. That I am being over-sensitive if I reacted to brutal treatment with disgust. I was explained that I was childish, not grown up if I expressed that I did not like someone being rude to me. Classical CBT explained this as my imagination, that other people are not rude, it is my over-reaction that is the only problem. That aggressive people are wounded so we must have patience and conform to them and use our empathy to understand demanding people as broken people. So in order to comply to this diagnosis - I shut up and self-censor myself. I would not react, if someone accused me of something untrue, I would smile and give no feedback or any information - in order to calm my fears and panic when being treated unfairly and accused of lies - I would explain it as me feeling entitled for thinking I am important enough to explain myself to people who are not capable of understanding others since they have been wounded and broken and come from broken homes. This is actually enabling of narcissism. Adult people have responsibilities, not excuses, and it is not ok to treat other people as garbage.
"Limits define, they create definition, they create shape, they create clarity." With social anxiety I got the message that whenever I defined my feelings and emotions that I am unacceptable, too much. This kept me stuck in people pleasing as solution to fit into what other people want and need. For example - I could not accept myself with driving phobia, since all competent and strong people drive without problems. In my eyes - I was being unacceptable, defect since I had these and other fears and anxieties. Which paradoxically are connected to toxic people - being in situation where I might get punished by toxic person through road rage for example, the core of my driving phobia. Someone angry and impatient while I search for parking place. Again - codependent situation where I am suppose to please toxic angry rude person, where I am accepted only if I do not bother others and where I do not stand in their ways, and where I have no needs or wants or right to exist and be at certain place where I am blocking the flow of other people who suppose are more important than me to exist on this planet.
"Healthy, loving, mature adults expect limitation." Yep, this is the message I never get. In my environment I am healthy and loving only if I work my health and loving into it. If I prove it by serving and being obedient.
I see that my limits are good - in a way that I allow myself to be myself.
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I agree. However, I think we have to be scientific about this. Chances are if we suffer from people pleasing, fawning, social anxiety, trauma from narcissistic abuse - chances are that we are programmed to feel guilt, irrational guilt, toxic shame and to minimize our legitimate needs as entitlement, where we are being projected onto all negative things that narcissists do.
Is it the same to hold on to grudge when someone did us wrong - is this the same as someone who is treating us as garbage? Holding on to resentment is negative however it is far from being aggressive and devastating to the other person such as putting other people down. I believe we have been programmed to normalize the abuse and to forgive abusers while in the same time we do not show respect and love towards ourselves, since we were hypnotized into belief that self care and self love is the same as being selfish.
I also believe that being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse, that our requests, limits and what we do not tolerate will be distorted and chipped off and pruned off with many rationalizations about what is wrong with us.
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Yeah, I like science, and science approach. I believe we as human beings are not build to self fix trauma that is caused externally anyway. So help and solution must come externally also.
In narcissistic abuse we will be gaslight, and our definitions will be thwarted and distorted, we will develop cognitive distortions and immature ego defense mechanisms, safety mechanisms that will help us survive explosions but cause us inhibit our lives. Mostly we won't be able to determine what is abuse and what is normal relationship - our judgement will be obfuscated.
This is why I see scientific approach - to handle facts as facts, to be transparent and objective as a tool to keep us sane, rather than receiving passively other people's explanations and definitions. It is paradox- that we trust other people who are safe and healthy so that we learn how to trust ourselves to make decisions that are safe and healthy. To be our own parent, since we never received functional parenting when we were suppose to receive it, as children.
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"It's not happening your way because it's in a compulsive reactive state. So anybody can cause anything within you. Right now someone else can decide what happens within you. Isn't this the most horrible form of slavery?" That is called social anxiety, codependency, lack of self love, lack of self-trust, self worth. It is where other people - real or imagined ones (triggered from past trauma) influence and instruct one's opinion, decisions and conclusions, perceptions and definitions.
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Preparation is key word here. Without preparation, I will interpret my smile as being people pleaser. Whereas toxic person will interpret my smile as green light to continue their abuse and bullying. Preparation means that I cut contact with toxic person (someone who is constantly angry and someone who choose to be angry when there are other options available). Also, preparation means that I know if I suffer from fawning, that I will tend to shut up and self censor. With preparation I know that I do not equate smiling as self-censorship and that I can speak up without drama and explosions and without anger words such as: "I disagree with you", "Stop it" "You are being unrealistic" etc.
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(9.4.2022)
In short, brain is built to protect itself from feeling the pain and repeating to feel the same pain. In PureOCD this mechanisms comes up with if you label something as danger, brain will pick up on this and think and analyze it too much, so intrusive thoughts will turn into OCD as a protective mechanism. So if Classical CBT labels Social Anxiety as complex panic symptom issue - the brain will turn even more anxiety, which will turn into hypervigilance and suppressed anxiety in long term, which will result in people pleasing and fawning as way to cope with social issues. What we focus on, grows. What we turn our back on, dies. Ignoring something is not turning our back - it is active energy draining process that keeps anxiety and fears alive. This is why suppression is immature ego defense mechanism - and this is why Classical CBT does not work for social anxiety. Third wave of CBT called DBT, as PureOCD techniques to heal intrusive thoughts - and Humanistic Psychology - all tell us that instead of ignoring and suppressing that we accept and validate anything that bother us as a way to resolve something that bothers us.
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(11.4.2022)
"teaches the brain that social situations are dangerous so it activates fight of flight response" That is Classical CBT wrong information that they gathered in early 1990s from people who were shy and mislabeled it as social anxiety. Social anxiety is not fear of general social situations, it is fear from criticism and negative evaluation. Also, there is another response called Fawn, fawning. It is because social anxiety is part of Complex Trauma, it is not caprice, whim, quirk or perk of someone having phobia. This is why phobia was renamed into anxiety in late 1990s - since it was obvious that social anxiety does not wear off with exposure, as any phobia does.
"teach the brain that social situations are not dangerous" Ok, however there are toxic people out there who manipulate and criticize people's imperfections and thus they still trigger social anxiety. So, some situation are scary and difficult. If we pathologize our natural reaction to difficult people, we are attacking our self worth and we give strength and energy to our toxic shame and inner critic to interpret our natural feelings and emotions of being uncomfortable among dangerous people as phobia - and we will thus allow negative and manipulative people into our lives. Then their toxicity will influence our social fears - their nitpickings, criticizing, attacking our weaknesses, mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge. Manipulative and toxic people, narcissists are crucial problem with social anxiety - our inability to recognize them and our inability to handle them. IF we pathologize our symptoms as exclusive problem - we are telling ourselves that we have no boundaries, no borders, no limits and we invite others to control us, since we will not trust our gut and instinct that something is not right.
We cannot control other people, therefore we cannot switch toxic people off. We cannot cut them off in situations where we need to get money, security, resource or help where these toxic people residue at - so we are forced to be around them.
Without Polyvagal theory, fawning, trauma and toxic people (narcissistic abuse) information, in my case, exposure proposed by Classical CBT turned my social anxiety into people pleasing, being pushover and fawning, seeking approval and validation from the external.
Third wave of CBT, called DBT, and also Humanistic Psychology tackles the toxic shame that is the cause of social anxiety symptoms. It comes down to accepting and self validation. This means, just as PureOCD intrusive thoughts - we accept intrusive worry, yet focus on our task, job, dreams at hand, that we would otherwise forget about it, due to being stuck in worry loop.
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Pink elephant paradox - you try to stop it, it will come up more and more. PureOCD intrusive worry loop. In proposed therapy - instead of stopping it (which gives it more strength and energy) it is proposed to accept it and to shift focus on something else. Some people went through Complex Trauma (being exposed to relentless criticism when growing up and being exposed to adult hysteria) left targets developing safety mechanisms and immature ego defense mechanisms - that molded us into being hyperalert. Now it is part of one's persona. So stopping intrusive worry - also means stopping healthy worry - which ends up in target being pushover, people pleaser and being unable to detect red flags, unable to detect narcissistic and dangerous people -which in end quiet and nice people attract toxic people like moth to a flame.
Problem are toxic people, narcissistic people, manipulators, aggressive people who are making other people around them sick.
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PureOCD techniques how to handle intrusive worry also suggest that we accept intrusive worry, rather than fighting it (pink elephant paradox). Third wave of CBT called DBT and Humanistic Psychology also suggest that we self-validate and accept anxiety.
Philosophically this is quite revealing - that we cannot handle external world. With anxiety we try to manipulate and control toxic people and toxic events: by avoiding and hiding and withdrawing from society. Social anxiety is irrational thinking that action inevitably leads to some embarrassment or bad action - so the solution is to break our legs and stop moving.
In my case, exposure lead me to people pleasing and being pushover - since I realized that Social anxiety in my case was part of Complex Trauma - being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when growing up and being exposed to adult hysteria which child brain cannot process other than developing toxic shame and safety mechanisms such as self blame, personalizations and catastrophizing. With toxic shame I have no self worth inside me, so exposure with toxic shame means seeking validation and approval from other people. Pathologizing my symptoms as allergy and over-reaction lead me to ignore valid social fears that I felt when in contact with toxic people - which in turn allowed me to get exploited and feel more and additional social anxiety - being hurt, exploited and taken advantage by other people, since I would let my boundaries and limits down. I would label my discomfort as over-reaction and social anxiety - and this leads to having no boundaries at all. It took me years to find out this is due to toxic shame and external reference locus of control, seeking approval and validation from others. It took me years to realize what self-love is as concept - since unfortunately classical CBT totally ignores complex trauma, toxic people, toxic shame and Polyvagal theory. Focusing on our symptoms leads us to having no protection. Social anxiety is not knowing how to deal with difficult and irrational people. If I pathologize my reactions to toxic narcissistic people as sickness, I will allow them to manipulate me, I will miss red flags to detect them and I will give energy to toxic shame and vanish my self worth, since self worth and self love means having boundaries, limits and standing up for myself. With Classical CBT - I interpret standing up for myself as allergy, over-reaction, and that is the most devastating effect of early 1990s false examination of social anxiety which was based on research of shy people, not socially anxious ones.
Third wave of CBT - DBT targets the toxic shame, complex trauma issues at the core - through self validation and self approval and self acceptance, instead of pathologizing our panic symptoms as wrong. Humanistic psychology told us about this practice since 1920s, so I am puzzled why official medical community decided that Classical CBT is better therapy for social anxiety. With self worth inside me, I have mechanism to deal with toxic people - who are the true cause of social anxiety, it is not my panic symptoms. With social anxiety, due to toxic shame I do not know how to deal and handle toxic people. With self worth inside me, with intrinsic locus of control, I am no longer controlled by toxic people - what they think about me. With self worth I trust myself, with mistakes and flaws and with being imperfect, all included.
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Relax: If I practice relaxation, I will demand to be relaxed. But what if I can't relax due to relentless criticism of my flaws and mistakes and inability to do work as some angry person is demanding me to do immediately? I will then feel more anxiety, since now I am not relaxed. I would rather accept my panic instead of trying to relax when someone clearly is abusive and irrational to me.
Skills: Public speaking - is actually building false persona. I am not politician, I am not TV presenter. I would rather be myself, with quirks and perks and mistakes and flaws, rather than building fake narcissistic mask that I must maintain. If I have to spend energy, time and money to appear unrealistic - this will cause me to have additional neurosis. I would rather work on accepting myself as I am, with being unclear, with being unheard, with being difficult to some people rather than people pleaser and trying to control and manipulate people into listening to me. Social anxiety is due to trauma in childhood when mentally ill person tried to skill us into adult, when child brain was unable to handle nor process relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria. Instead - it developed toxic shame which is the problem here, not inability to control other people through skills.
Friends: People with social anxiety have no friends, it is because of social anxiety. Friends and social anxiety does not go hand in hand. With toxic shame there is inner critic that is influencing thoughts in negative ways. So we have to first tackle trauma, build our true persona and then have friends. Chances are that having toxic shame we attracted plethora of parasites and toxic people (people who are negative, complaining, nitpicking) and who are parasiting over our social anxiety appearance as shy, nice, quiet - these people are not friends. They are toxic.
Exposure: With toxic shame inside, our self worth is exported into other people where we will seek approval and validation from other people, this is called external reference locus of control and trauma bonding. Problem is that we have no self worth inside us. When exposing, this means we will miss red flags and we will attract toxic people and parasites, manipulators and Machiavellians - narcissists who will hurt us and this way exposure will bring on more social anxiety and pain. It is like driving your car with your hand brake on, it will stutter, and it can break the mechanism of driving. This is why social phobia was renamed into social anxiety in late 1990s - because medical experts realized that exposure does not work, since it is not phobia. Social anxiety is part of Complex Trauma - being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse, bullying and neglect, toxic environment with chronic lack of love and over abundance of hysteria and mental illness.
Be mindful: Analysis leads to paralysis. Our toxic shame will turn any information into toxic by product. So being mindful will not work if toxic shame is present inside us. Also, there is system of cognitive bias and logical fallacies in every human being. This means, we will seek , see and perceive only what we are capable to process. With social anxiety our world will filter any information with toxic shame. This means, being mindful leads to more anxiety, additional and new ones, more neuroticism and chronic worry and hypervigilance.
Classical CBT: CBT was based on false research in early 1990s.. They gathered shy people and then draw false conclusions on shy people, not socially anxious ones. That way, Classical CBT focused on panic symptoms as the main issue. While trauma was suppressed and negated - and in this way Classical CBT is repeating the trauma: neglect and ignoring the wound inside. When we pathologize our panic symptoms as something disgusting - we are creating Jung shadow - we are splitting our persona into desirable and undesirable parts - and this way we are actually creating mental imbalance.
Third wave of CBT called DBT is focused on self acceptance and it targets issues that are related to Social anxiety. Humanistic psychology also targets the same issues - that we self validate and accept ourselves as we are - and then grow and built on this self love.
Social anxiety is related to toxic people - it did not fell out of air, out of nowhere. Socially anxious people were victims of untreated mentally ill people in their life, being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse. "Long term narcissistic abuse cause brain injury" - we can google it. Social anxiety is that injury. IT is the tip of iceberg. And Classical CBT, behavioural therapy focuses only on tip of iceberg, completely ignoring the huge chunk of hidden trauma beneath the surface.
Also, social anxiety is part of being HSP. I would work on our ability to accept ourselves as being different , and this means challenging social norms and social pressures such as conformity, where toxic people define what is acceptable in society - and thus they create chaos and disorder that we feel through social anxiety symptoms.
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Great tips, but this seems to me more like shyness issue. Social anxiety is being hyper sensitive to negative comments, criticism and negative evaluation. It is the result of complex trauma, being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process it in any other way than developing toxic shame and immature ego defense mechanisms - such as introjecting other people opinions and ideas as own. This leads to people pleasing, fawning and being pushover. With self worth being exported into other people - exposure means having no boundaries, being unable to say no, being pushover - trauma bonding really. This means attracting plethora of toxic people, narcissists since there are no red flags warnings. Social anxiety means not knowing how to handle and manage difficult people - and you end up picking up their negative energy inside you and it is stuck inside you and you cannot shake it off. So - exposure is like being sponge in water. It helps you to learn the water system but it does not make you dry.
Exposure will work with social anxiety - but only when we go through trauma healing, DBT and humanistic psychology - when we learn what self worth is. With self worth we can have protection around our sponge and not get soaked when thrown into water.
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But why we are not selfish enough? It is toxic people. They trigger our sense of duty, our natural and healthy sense to be productive and helpful to others - through criticizing and nitpicking our flaws and mistakes. Therefore: "Stop seeking people we dislike" and "stop worrying about opinions of strangers" "Focus what is meaningful to us" - will not work. Toxic people will trigger irrational guilt and toxic shame inside us, and we will trauma bond with narcissists. They will mock and make drama out of our natural mistakes and we will worry about opinions of strangers - since they are correct in assessment that we made mistake. Trouble is that we do not identify it is perfectionism that is problem here. Toxic people are Machiavellians, they are very crafty in nitpicking and pointing out our flaws and lack of knowledge in something - and in the end we will try to please them, they will control our emotions and decisions - and in this way we will not be focused on our self worth, but rather their instructions and guilt tripping over our mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge in certain areas. They will manipulate us and hypnotize into worrying and being devoted to their hysteria and drama - since they trigger toxic shame inside us and our natural healthy duty to be productive person who is empathetic and helpful and serving to society.
I would rather work on detecting narcissistic toxic people and detecting our trauma safety mechanisms - than to be selfish just to be selfish about. When we have self worth inside us, we will be naturally selfish, without any need of reminding us about it.
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They are parasites. They exploit energy and attention from kind, open, nice, quiet, forgiving, healthy people who are turned to society and friendships. They are parasiting on social norms and take advantage of social loopholes.
Classical CBT is instructing people with social anxiety to expose - to socialize more- and that you interpret your anxiety as over-reaction and to ignore your feelings and emotions that are uncomfortable. Now - what happens when you are open, when you are instructed with official medical advice to be friendly, nice, open and to ignore toxic behaviour from others as over-reaction - you end up being people pleaser - by following official medical advice such as Classical CBT.
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(12.4.2022)
My rationalization was - they are too sensitive as i am so I must be patient with them since I know firsthand how uncomfortable feelings are. That was one common blockage that prevented me to talk, communicate and alarm the unreasonable people, I thought I would hurt them if I spoke the truth. Back then I did no realize that talking the truth can be without explosions and drama, and that transparency and facts are not attack neither aggression nor any form of what might be considered rude by sane person.
Another rationalization was that I never knew whether they are truly mistaken or flawed. Whereas the idea is that I cannot attack or nitpick or criticize someone for honest mistake or lack of knowledge - since I was criticized for the same and I knew how much unfair that was, to expect perfection and to expect to be good at something you do rarely. This question is related to this video title.
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(13.4.2022)
What about narcissistic people who dump their rage and anger, then they turn their back and leave, expecting to be their way or highway? So - There is no talk, communication at all - it is only one single order and command and label and projection onto the target. Where there is shame culture message - aggressive person is belittling the target.
Or.. where the other person is yelling and screaming - and you cannot speak out to this unreasonable person due to their incessant rage? You listen to advice to remain calm - and this ends up as them thinking they are superior, while they perceive people who are silent are actually weak and subordinates to them. Again - there is only one channel of communication: dumping accusations and labels.
I see it like this: if there is confrontational ambience and atmosphere of fear all the time - it is a red flag that the aggressive person is mentally ill. That is the only problem. You cannot build relationship with person who is sick and unable to live with people. They live in a fantasy world of superiority complex and narcissism, entitlement, and there is no possibility of interdependence, cooperation neither vulnerability nor contribution to solving the problem, it is only their desire to dominate and to be their way. I believe this is the single cause why communism failed and why democracy and capitalism works - since there is no fertile ground for a mentally ill person to be tyrannical to the masses.
I also see it like this: what are our values - do we need this job where there is mentally ill person? Do I need to be in toxic job because I want to impress neighbors with my home, car or clothes or travel trips?
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"it is about making sure you respect yourself by expressing yourself. Primary goal is that you express your truth. " That is guiding light - however after year of researching psychology behind this mechanism of expressing and being authentic - I discovered that the aggressive person who is nitpicking, criticizing and attacking, without desire to find solution, that these confrontational types of people have mechanism how to spread their mental illness. First they use anger and rage. This triggers emotional dysregulation in the most people, our lizard brain takes over - we jump to safe mode - where cortex is offline. This means: we are unable to tell concisely, we cannot think straight - and this is the exact goal they want to achieve by hysteria. They see this works for nice, kind, open, friendly people with healthy amygdala (empathy and conscience) and thus they parasite over healthy people. We become food for narcissists, manipulators and emotional vampires, narcissists and borderliners - simply by being normal and desiring cooperation and justice and having normal levels of shame and guilt inside. They trigger us into basic mode of thinking and render our defenses useless through gaslighting and smear campaign - where we are in defense mode, trying to analyze their accusations and find solutions to puzzles they throw to us. What we do not realize - what nobody told us - is that this person is mentally ill, and they live in fantasy world where they invent events and accusations which we take seriously, as we take every person seriously, since we are open, kind, nice and friendly - so they feed on our desire to respect all people.
Another mechanism is that they pick, nitpick on our desire to be helpful and servile to other people. They trigger and nitpick our desire to make our job perfectly and that no one is harmed by our actions. Since mistakes are natural - we will make mistakes, especially if we do something for the first time. Then this people will nitpick on our mistakes, triggering our shame and guilt - and we will not have truth to speak about only to agree with their criticism - for which they have punishment - usually yelling and screaming and accusations and revenge. Since this activates our lizard brain, we cannot think straight and we do not realize that they are manipulating us.
So I would focus on our ability to be vulnerable, to tolerate mistakes, to admit where we have been wrong so that they do not have ability to prick our Achille's heel, our weak spots. That is something we have never learned in schools nor society nor media. We are taught to be superior, narcissistic, to wear a mask of invincibility, where shyness is something to be derided. That we must be strong and stoic and mistakes and vulnerabilities are shameful. I think this creates the atmosphere where we are easily exploited by mentally ill people who are aggressive, narcissistic, Machiavellians.
At the end of this discovery - I was astonished that I totally missed in my vocabulary these things to say as self-expression and defense for these parasites: "I disagree with you". Instead I would feel shame or try to defend myself.
Or "You are being unreasonable and irrational" Instead I would defend my mistakes and flaws and try to appear perfect.
Or "You are over-reacting" Instead I was labelled as being snowflake, over-sensitive.
In short - critical people who are confrontational and aggressive set up the atmosphere where we are victims, Karpman drama triangle - where we are hypnotized into the role of victim and where we have to defend ourselves by expressing our truth and being assertive- in the end we dig our own grave by society that is narcissistic and sick. I see opting out of Karpman Drama Triangle by using their own weapon. Criticize them back. It will infuriate them. As kind, nice, open, friendly, cooperative people with solution seeking mentality, aka being healthy - we are being exploited by our own healthy inclinations of solution seeking and cooperativeness. Aggressive people turn our ability to be friendly against ourselves - so we cut off our branches to defend ourselves (by being critical to them) and they make us use our healthy dosage of shame and guilt against ourselves - where we are forced to defend our actions. Similar to Jew paradox - where no matter what you do, you always have to defend yourself, but it is never brought into the question the person who is accusing one specific group. This is the heart of bullying - where our being nice, sociable and kind is used against us. I believe in today society we are being falsely educated that speaking the truth is being rude. It is like being sanitized - and what happens is that germs and bacteria resistant to method of sanitization will paradoxically flourish in sanitized environment - since the virus found a way to upgrade itself - so it can avoid being detected as virus.
I believe that the truth is: if someone is constantly confrontational, critical and accusatory - that this person is mentally ill and it is best to minimize contact with such person. Our methods of being assertive and defense mechanisms - will work against us and we will lose time, energy and money by being in contact with such people.
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"The self-absorption paradox describes the contradictory association whereby higher levels of self-awareness are simultaneously associated with higher levels of psychological distress and with psychological well-being."
So yeah, it is paradox - we won't get ability to be confrontational by focusing on confrontation - instead it will make things worse, we will become more scared of it. Analysis leads to paralysis.
I see solution in - being authentic. Instead of seeking approval and validation from others (trauma bonding and external reference locus of control) it is about having internal intrinsic locus of control - where we create life and make our dreams come true, focus on what makes me personally happy. Now surprisingly - this will create a lot of confrontations along the way - however if we follow our inner voice, gut and instinct and common sense, we will deal with confrontations in natural manner.
If however we are focused on what media and society tells us what we need from life, we will label confrontation as assertiveness and battle between good and evil, where we are ego-centric and entitled. Where we need to learn how to be assertive and strong and stoic all the time, so that neighbours and acquaintances see how great and superior we are, without vulnerabilities and super confident. It is the wrong course.
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9:43 "People will think you are weak" But this is problem. Why I would care what people think? If I construct my life based on what other people think - this is serious problem and road to mental instability. It means I give other people ability to control my life, my decisions and my persona - being obsessed about what other people think to the point I create life decisions on someone else's thoughts and judgement - is cure road to mental illness.
I agree that people will take advantage of showing emotions - however I believe each situation is different and making permanent decision is Aristotelian approach, too rigid. Life is fuzzy. We thus need to adopt fuzzy logic: Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Sometimes in quarters, sometime in majority. Sometimes more, sometimes less. There are no absolutes in life. Too rigid leads to OCD issues.
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(15.4.2022)
"You respect your awareness of things." This part is thwarted to me due to classical CBT in social anxiety. Social anxiety therapy in Classical CBT is that I bring into question my social fears - and by pathologizing my panic and fears I distrust my reaction. I merge and lump together natural instinct that someone is toxic with general anxiety where I am afraid without any reason and valid external factor that is causing the panic. Classical CBT does not highlight awareness, and in this way it has devastating effect on self worth and personal goals and dreams. This lead me to blocked life, where my only focus was panic symptoms and how to avoid it, without thinking long term what I want from life and I would disregard red flags in recognizing toxic people. I ended up with fawning, people pleasing and being taken advantage and surrounded by narcissists who scan for people without borders.
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On the surface it looks like fear.
However if you do analyze situations you are afraid in the past are actually related to toxic people. People who nitpick your flaws and mistakes, where you are not being perfect. It is easy to control people who are conscious and who want to perform without mistakes - and toxic people trigger and hit exactly this spot - where you want to perform without mistakes. Since mistakes are natural part of life, everyone will make mistakes no matter how much you try to avoid them. Toxic people will thus criticize, monitor and observe your actions and nitpick and highlight your failures. That is beneath the fear - situations where you cannot defend yourself from accusations of mentally ill people: narcissists and Machiavellians.
So as people we cannot analyze ourselves due to confirmation bias. We are trapped in a Plato's cave and we are literally hypnotized into our own explanations and false guidance and fake explanations, intentional or unintentional ones. This makes us easy targets for narcissists and people with hidden agenda to exploit others (Machiavellians).
The solution to fear is - being authentic, being vulnerable, not being afraid to admit you are wrong, cut off contact with toxic people, reading red flags signs to cut these people off.
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That is good advice: when faced with irrational person, figure out what is happening. The person may have legitimate reason to be angry - perhaps something urgent needs to be done and my focus may be on something else due to any reason. OR - this angry person may be manipulator, narcissist, egocentric, Machiavellianism - toxic person who is exploiting others for their own personal agenda, to steal other people's time and energy by nitpicking and criticizing someone's natural and healthy desire to be servile and helpful to society.
Karpman Drama Triangle - opt out of it. However the person who is asking the question is talking about perfectionism, where the abuser feels entitled to have it their way or highway. They expect unreasonable results, irrational and fantasy entitlement where the world revolved around them. How do you opt out of job circumstances - where you have contract and your job depends on the person who is angry because you make mistake, due to flaws, imperfections and lack of knowledge or lack or resources to be quick, and or productive.
If you put more resources - you will be exploited and taken advantage - where you will give more than it is worth, more than it is payed for, where other people would not make the same results - it is being exploited, so the angry person is abusing and using their emotions to control the target. That is manipulation.
If there is objective reason for delay - that person is being unreasonable. If you are not manager and you cannot cut future contact with such person or people - you are left with two options: to do your job without external pressure nor influence. Or quit job and move on. It is self worth: am I doing my best anyway, considering my abilities and my resources to the maximum of my own capabilities. Anything more than this is exploitation and being taken advantage. Someone's criticism about flaws, mistakes and objective delays are manipulation.
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People pleasing is trauma response. It is not something you can change at the press of button. IT is being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse, usually when child brain was unable to process adult hysteria and relentless criticism other than developing safety mechanisms such as fawning. Therefore, problem as narcissistic people who have too much boundaries and who feel entitled enough to spread boundaries onto other people. Problem is Not the person who was abused and methodically brainwashed and hypnotized into subservience and being pushover.
People who people please do this due to learned helplessness hypnosis and fear of hurt, fear of pain and fear of criticism. It is escape mechanism to avoid hurt, as learned during time being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse. So rationalization such as people pleasing will hurt you - does nothing to people who went through torture from mentally ill people such as narcissists.
People pleasing is not about helping other people. It seems to third party, people around them. It is about avoiding receiving verbal abuse and punishment for being yourself.
Reversing what you think about you, and you first also will not work for people pleasers due to toxic shame. Long term narcissistic abuse, especially in childhood, extinguish self worth and it instils toxic shame. Internalized toxic shame means being focused on other people, since everything about self is ashamed due to abuse from mentally ill person such as narcissist.
Internal check will not work in reality due to Self-absorption paradox and Confirmation bias. "The self-absorption paradox describes the contradictory association whereby higher levels of self-awareness are simultaneously associated with higher levels of psychological distress and with psychological well-being." "Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
So toxic shame thwarts all incoming information and filters it though abuse. So if you speaking about being Superman - this information will be interpreted into becoming narcissist.
People magnetized towards you - but this is the purpose of people pleasing. IT is external reference locus of control where instead of self worth, we seek trauma bonding and seeking approval and validation from other people, external approval. The one thing to magnetize is self worth, intrinsic locus of control, where I do not depend on approval nor disapproval of other people.
Discipline - people pleasers already are disciplined - into pruning off their own resources, as toxic shame and abuse instructed them to do.
Wrong information will do much more damage than deliberate false informationa.
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(18.4.2022)
Problem is then you label something as anxiety - and then when you find techniques to battle this anxiety - you will create PureOCD intrusive worry mechanism and hypervigilance. This labelling and search for solution and search for cure gives short term relief, however what creates is addiction in brain. Brain is built to keep safe. If you tell your brain that there is anxiety, brain will over think it - brain is built that way. Since the labeling and seeking relief gives short term relief, it will keep you hooked to anxiety, it is like drug fix.
Social anxiety is part of trauma, Complex Trauma. This means - even when you "just do it" - people with social anxiety will experience emotional dysregulation. This means, it will not wear off with time neither by doing what you are anxious about. This is because anxiety is symptom here, it is not the main problem. People who feel shyness - they will benefit from exposure - since there is no underline trauma.
"Being tough" is contradictory to your first message to be yourself. What if you are HSP and value friendship and peace - then being tough is equal to being bully and abuse people.
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Sounds to me like this guy has more narcissistic issues and ego-centrism. Social anxiety is fear from people. It is submissive stance, inferiority without mask of superiority.
If you are rude to people - this means you solved your social anxiety by being jerk and idiot to other people. You are inferior but you mask it by appearing superior. So now - you no longer have fear from people, now you have guilt and shame for treating people like garbage and people avoid you - and then he labels this natural reaction of being jerk to other people as social anxiety.
He really wants to control other people here due to narcissism and bad character, so that all people around him admire him and approve him, this is narcissistic disorder masked as social anxiety, since narcissists like to play victim and appear vulnerable to get attention from others. He is the center of universe, and other people are just revolving around him and he sees other people as servants to his desires.
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Yes it is. As soon a social anxiety therapist talks about symptoms and is focused on symptoms - it is Classical CBT. Fortunately there is third wave of CBT called DBT and it is true therapy for social anxiety. Classical CBT was based on shyness, early research in 1990s was financed by corporations and they wanted people to get quick to work, so they do not pay health bills to socially triggered people who were mobbed at work - so they sought quick fix, similar to lobotomy in 1950s.
Quick fix in Classical CBT is that you are convinced that you are safe and that you are imagining stuff. That is ok if you live in Disneyland and have millions of dollars on your bank account - where you can relocate, built yourself bunker cave and have servants do external contact with people.
However, Classical CBT does not mention when you have no choice but to be in contact with abusers and hysterical people, with toxic people, there is no mention of shame culture countries, there is no mention of toxic shame, there is no information how you deal with difficult people, hysterical people. Instead Classical CBT says that if you feel anxiety, it is your job to keep quiet and to endure abuse. Horrible approach that makes you into people pleaser and pushover.
Classical CBT says be yourself naturally - but they totally fail to address external factor: sick and aggressive, mentally ill people with whom you must be in contact with for whatever reason, you cannot leave them or cut contact.
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Social anxiety is not seasonal discomfort of entitled and narcissistic, borderline people who are convinced they are the center of universe.
"Visualize watching yourself succeed" Social anxiety is fear of criticism. Now, I am not sure what succeeding is when you are in contact with toxic person, someone who is hysterical and mentally ill, aggressive?
"Be selective with outings" People are already selective. It is called Confirmation Bias. We will select what our brain is learned to select. We can't go outside of box on our own since we are not aware that we are inside the box. Also, people with toxic shame and trauma experience, which are integral part of social anxiety will not have self worth inside - so basically this means socially anxious people are not aware that they are hypnotized into external locus of control and trauma bonding. They would break hypnosis if someone , oh I don't know, on general TV with expertise might explain this phenomena in one sentence, as I did. Half baked advice is as damaging as totally wrong advice.
"Volunteer, attend a class" Yet the topic is social anxiety here. This means you have issues with social settings. People with social anxiety want to know how to break the ice so that they are in the state of mind to choose volunteering and taking a class.
"Bring a friend" This person has no idea what social anxiety is. Social anxiety means - you have no friends. You have social anxiety instead.
"Ask questions. makes other people valued" Nope. Other person will find questions intrusive. Also, when you pretend and when you are not yourself - this advice is advice how to become socially anxious, since she enforce idea to pretend and to wear a mask, and to depend on what other people are thinking.
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Social anxiety is fear of criticism and negative evaluation. It is being triggered by aggressive and rude people into emotional dysregulation.
Going outside and ignoring toxic people will end up with being people pleaser, being pushover and fawn over people.
Also, other people will find it annoying if some stranger bugs them in the streets. And it is very narcissistic and ego-centric to take advantage and exploit random people as if they are some thing to use and then throw off like dirty towel.
Social anxiety was renamed from social phobia - because exposure did not help. Phobias wear off with exposure. Social anxiety stick and stays stuck inside due to trauma, it is Complex Trauma issue.
If your "social anxiety" wears off with talking with people - this is indication that this "social anxiety" is shyness and nothing more.
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Yeah, challenges prove that in 80-95 percent of time, there is no danger at all. It is in our heads. That is the main point of Classical CBT. That our social fears are imagination and trauma stuck inside our body and hypnosis from narcissistic abuse in childhood and bullying.
However... What happens when you do meet hysterical person (the core of social anxiety trauma)? When someone is aggressive? I learned I have in-built mechanisms which are surprisingly highly healthy.
Yet - due to trauma - I have flashbacks, triggers and trauma that is triggered inside. And negative experience - even though I dealt with it in proper, instructed, highly healthy and approving way (being kind and nice and diplomatic, without anger or losing self control) - no matter, it will come back and haunt me and it will broadcast fears and inhibitions and disgust and resentment and panic.
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"learn to be comfortable with yourself." People with social anxiety can't learn this due to toxic shame. Internalized irrational guilt inside due to Complex trauma that is umbrella condition hovering above social anxiety.
"social skills" People with social anxiety already have excellent social skills: empathy and ability to feel what other people feel and thinking what other person might need and anticipate other people needs. Some people pay a loud of bucks to learn how to diminish ego-centrism, due to trauma, socially anxious people are being taught through abuse to diminish ego.centrism. Lack of ego.centism is equal to social skills.
"find supportive person" Social anxiety is having little person inside that is thwarting your perceptions - so due to trauma you cannot perceive supportive person, because you were abused.
"get out of comfort zone" Socially anxious people are already outside of their comfort zone all the time - being in hypervigilance, that is the problem - that they do not feel comfort zone, there is no psychological security.
"Self-esteem" due to toxic shame there is no self esteem - and self esteem is not important, self esteem is after -effect. Self worth is the only concept that is valuable for socially anxious people to learn.
"Find activity that you love" Due to toxic shame you have no self worth inside you. This means , you do not know what you love. You know what other people might love and you construct your life without knowing it about what other people approve and want, this is called trauma bonding.
Social anxiety is part of Complex Trauma.
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"what separates someone who is genuinely generous and caring to a people pleaser" True! We live in dualistic world and this causes so much chaos and misunderstandings. For any occurrence in life (unless unkind or violent) - it can be viewed from multiple angles. Labels will destroy sanity. It seems like quick fix for chaos and insecurity and vagueness, however oversimplifications and jumping to conclusions and being convinced in your own explanation is wrong way, it is ego-centrism.
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Yeah, Classical CBT did nothing in the area of toxic shame, dealing with toxic people, I ended up with being people pleaser and pushover, since Classical CBT does not address trauma and fawning as trauma response. There is no information about trauma bonding and external reference locus of control which occurs due to internalized toxic shame.
Focusing only on panic symptoms and highlighting the fact that I have cognitive distortions - my toxic shame interpreted this as I am freak while all other people are superior. I was left with the feeling that I have to farm my panic symptoms and focus all my life choice and narrative on social anxiety symptoms. Believing I am inept to live left me with strong toxic shame, since Classical CBT never explained what toxic shame is, and how to deal with toxic shaming from other people. Classical CBT tells us that it is our imagination and that we have to lower our guards and be open to anybody. This is open invitation to exploiters, emotional vampires and borderliners, since they will fill the gap of validation seeking and approval.
Third wave of CBT called DBT targets exactly those issues that are at the core of social anxiety: toxic shame, external reference locus of control, trauma bonding, lack of self love and after-effects of neglect and toxic environment of constant criticism.
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(19.4.2022)
"On the backdrop of the biases, and double standards we had to contend with in the workplace, our inner critic was taking the bait: often adopting the perspective that we're not good decision makers." I would focus more on emotional manipulation of exploitative and mentally ill people who are aggressive - with hidden agenda, Machiavellians. People who doubt our self worth and we take the bait - where inner critic is just program that is running being executed by external virus attacking our mental stability. It is good to know red flags and to discern who is enemy, there is a term called altruistic narcissist for example - Nurse Ratched, borderline types: people who appear as if they are helping us, but they create damage instead.
Consider this: "A few years ago, Facebook, in conjunction with researchers from Cornell and the University of California, conducted an experiment in which they intentionally played with the emotions of 689,000 users by manipulating their feeds so that some users only saw negative stories while others only saw positive stories. Sure enough, when these people posted their own updates, they were greatly influenced by the mood of the posts they’d been shown.
Facebook caught a lot of flak over the experiment, primarily because none of the “participants” gave their consent to join the study. Perhaps more frightening than Facebook’s faux pas was just how easily people’s emotions were manipulated. After all, if Facebook can manipulate your emotions just by tweaking your newsfeed, imagine how much easier this is for a real, live person who knows your weaknesses and triggers. A skilled emotional manipulator can destroy your self-esteem and even make you question your sanity." (article: 9 Signs You're Dealing With an Emotional Manipulator, talentsmartEQ)
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"Understood with sense of compassion. When we shame our inner critic, gets louder." It makes sense. If we engage and make it into enemy - we are going to be trapped inside Karpman Drama Triangle, where inner critic is persecutor and we are having roles of victims or appeaser - rescuer. PureOCD mechanisms such as ACT or ERP tell us to accept intrusive worry - where inner critic is a form of intrusive OCD thought that we can't shake off.
I see inner critic as part of trauma, being in close vicinity of person who is mentally ill, untreated and who manipulates with emotions of their targets- someone who is codependent and for whatever reason cannot cut contact with such person.
I see both emotional manipulation and intrusive worry solution - that we change the way how we react to it. Whatever we do will be wrong, it is double binding: if we shut up we give in and we give green light for abuse to continue. If we stand up for ourselves, it enrages and aggression gets louder. If we go and think about it and study it - we get manipulated, since we get gaslighted by shifting goalposts of inner critic and intrusive worries and narcissist. I see all those three concepts as the same "virus".
And that is the key - that we handle inner critic, intrusive worries and toxic people as virus - that we learn what it is in order to get immunity. That we understand its mechanics, how it works, how can we protect ourselves - is it airborne or tactile, how it is transmitted. So instead of allergy reaction - which can in the future turn into destruction of any relationship and lead us living in avoidance and socially anxiety lifestyle - I would instead see scientific approach much more healthier. To study and learn what is the problem in order to know how to handle it, rather than avoidance or learned helplessness or safety mechanism.
In the same way, DBT and Humanistic Psychology also tell us that we handle our own fears and anxieties in the same way: with compassion and understanding rather than obsessing over symptoms and trying frantically to get rid off uncomfortable emotions - which usually makes things worse.
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Jordan Peterson is prone to shortcuts and oversimplifications so basically anything he says is logical fallacy and bias, prejudice and wrong conclusion - since he is ego-centric, he is unable to have empathy and consider to see things from multiple point of views - which is sign of narcissist and mentally ill person.
"face and stance that is assertive - people will not mess you to begin with" So in here he is instructing people to put on narcissistic mask. He is instructing people how to become narcissist. He is instructing people how to become mentally ill. Narcissist mind can end up with criminal intentions - look at Putin, it is mental disorder since it is aggressive. Why would people mess with you anyway? If you believe that all people will mess with you, you are having victim mentality. Another issue - why he propose that people have no resources to deal and manage messing up from someone? So in a way he tells you that you are inferior, you are inept - and you must pretend and be fake. As all narcissist - being fake takes up all energy and you are becoming more and more fragile - not stronger. You must tell lies to cover up the vulnerabilities - so you are not authentic, you become liar.
"You present yourself as punching bag and you think you are good person" People pleasing is sign of trauma. It is not choice. People pleasers were in long term narcissistic abuse by exactly people like him - with fake mask who see world as enemy and where people are there to mess with you - constant hypervigilance and aggression.
"To stand up you have to grow teeth and be able to use them, you should be able to bite people and generally you don't have to" Horrible advice. This is the same as you have to carry a gun to protect yourself. Well, Einstein, what will happen if criminals are allowed to carry a gun, too? We will have world of shooting spree. Instead of teeth - standing up for yourself does not mean you bite other people. It is very simple: just be authentic. Since he is traumatized and narcissistic, this is foreign concept for him. However speaking the truth is very potent and strong repellent for difficult people. Plato said no one is more hated than the one who is speaking the truth.
"pushover, you think that is good, you confuse harmlessness with morality" Again, it is trauma. Adult person does not choose to be slave to others. It had to be long term exposure to mentally ill people like him, narcissistic and emotionally abusive and manipulative, with their fake masks of superiority and mentality that world is dangerous.
He is spreading mental illness.
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"Every time we choose to do less than we possible can, it affects our self confidence, our self worth. It is not what we get and accumulate that makes us valuable, it is what we become. Success is in doing, activity that converts idea in actuality."
I learned that this urge to be helpful, doing something, being active - is connected with perfectionism and manipulative people that thwarts it and are invisible negative forces that motivators usually never mention at all - yet they are extremely damaging.
Perfectionism is learned from trauma, being in toxic environment where we learned that we are valuable only is we do not make mistake. It kinda makes sense to do things without mistakes, flaws, lack of knowledge. However this is highly irrational belief. World is not perfect, so how can we impose unrealistic standard onto us? Mistakes are part of any activity, it is normal occurrence. If we pathologize mistake(s), we will end up mentally unstable. Which leads to Machiavellians: manipulative people with hidden agenda. They parasite on people who are open to activity and to do something in life by nitpicking and highlighting perfectionism, making fun or enrage over mistakes, flaws and or lack of knowledge. Criticism turns into control of the target: you ashame someone's mistake, someone who is oriented into doing and activity - and you will be easily manipulated by toxic people, narcissists and manipulators who prey and then parasite over our need to be active. And we do not recognize toxic people here. They are damaging our mental health and suck our energy - by being critical. They might even turn us off to be active - since they may be unreasonable and irrational. We may be caught in people pleasing loop - to achieve and goal posts which these people keep on moving. They are parasiting over our perfectionism, which is the key problem here. Perfectionism is hidden mental illness here. Perfectionism can make you withdraw and feel hypervigilant all the time - being afraid to make mistake, something wrong, which may trigger rage and criticism by other people our our own inner critic. We end up depressed without knowing why. We end up afraid without knowing from where this fear is stemming from. We end up being machine, someone who is slave to someone's orders and commands - instead of being active and doing what we like - which may not be perfect or accepted by society or standards of general population.
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Preparation for panic is recipe for intrusive worry loops and hypervigilance. Brain will label it as dangerous and give and provide more things to be afraid, brain is built that way. Instead of preparation, I would rather focus on knowledge and information, so in case of vague situation, that I have some ground and roots keeping me on the solid surface, instead of floating in possibilities and making sense of chaos what is happening.
Routines against panic fears such as mantra or counting leads to OCD.
If we experience panic - there had to be some trauma. Usually it is narcissistic abuse behind it, lack of love, validation and acceptance. Being exposed to criticism and ignoring symptoms and or pretending to be strong alpha male macho as instructed by untreated mentally ill person through the process of toxic shaming.
Sharing your thoughts soon turns into victim mentality and complaining, which drains both persons in the process.
Distraction is immature ego defense mechanism, it is unfunctional and it does nothing to the root cause - trauma.
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(20.4.2022)
"same action can effect people differently." This goes complex - another person may suppress and ignore symptoms. Where suppression is immature ego defense mechanism, so it is in a sort of a way feeling - they just numb it down and do not show it. Feeling is there, they just learned to cover it up - which may turn as physical illness later on, or explode later- very unhealthy mechanism. Some use it as one-man-up-ship where they are narcissists and they want to appear superior over others by acting confident and strong. Wearing a mask means lying, giving false information and keeping up the appearances which turns into fantasy world, blaming and shifting goals, very irritating behaviour.
Or person may not have empathy, or emotional intelligence to recognize emotions and have difficulty to label them or be aware what they feel at all. They may be psychopaths, where they interpret not feeling as being macho and strong. Also, they may have different definitions and realizations and perspective about particular situation - while in the reality, in different circumstances, they would over-react and be hysterical where certain subjects are different, yet situation is the same.
What I learned and saw and experienced with people who negate other people's emotions - are that these people are highly over-reactive themselves, they simply act and have mask, and they eventually have issues with emotions - they just simply direct emotions to present it as socially acceptable: being sarcastic, criticizing, nagging, complaining, highlighting other people's flaws, being cruel to others. Making other people feel guilty for their mistakes, lack of knowledge.
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I learned that resentment is hypnotic emotion. IF we resent, it means that other people control our emotions and thus our decisions and our life. It means we are being triggered by others, and this gives incredible power over us.
The solution is to be authentic and honest, and to have internal locus of control, instead of seeking approval and acknowledgment and validation from others, trauma bonding and external reference locus of control.
The reason why we have resentment and external reference is toxic shame inside us, deep core belief we are inept so we try to hide our "mistakes", flaws, not being perfect to the standards of society or certain group of people who set standards we deem as valuable. Again - others control our beliefs, and we are part of groupthink and herd mentality.
This means - instead of resentment, it is about having the opposite - being vulnerable and showing it, This way we will accept ourselves and this destroys both toxic shame (the source of mental illness) and external locus of control.
Embracing shadow therefore does not mean wearing a mask of superiority, pretending to be macho and strong, it does not mean Jordan Peterson's advice to be monster - instead it means exactly the opposite: to embrace being a wuss, sissy, weak, inferior, boring, mistaken, with lack of knowledge.. Only by self acceptance other people will stop controlling us and we will make decision based on our own true persona inside - with good and bad things we like or dislike about ourselves. It is yin yang balance. That is the only way.
Pretending to be strong leads to mental instability and mental illness. Breeding resentment leads to criminal behaviour and harm and depression.
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Being too nice - it can be divided in two sorts: 1) people who manipulate others in order to take advantage 2) people who went through trauma of severe abuse and being too nice is surviving mechanism.
The first sort is easily unmasked as soon as you deny their request - then they will show up their narcissistic rage hidden behind being servile and complacent.
The second type - you cannot stop people pleasing by press of button. IT is trauma stuck inside the body. IT is unresolved emotions and mental complex thinking stuck inside the brain as brain injury. IT is learned helplessness due to narcissistic people who misunderstood what masculinity, macho and strong is by definition. If you abuse others, you are not masculine nor strong - you are parasite, taking advantage of easy targets who are not defending themselves due to any reason. Superiority complex is part of inferiority complex - aggressive people cover up their deep toxic shame, sense of being inept by pretending to be superior. This creates disorder and chaos in the world and relationships - as we see it in Trump or Putin in politics. Mentally ill people who are weak inside, pretending to be bully in order for others to admire them.
Due to herd mentality and groupthink, aggressiveness is seen as strength. This needs to change. Someone being jerk is being jerk, it is not being macho or better or strong. They find traumatized people and they exploit such targets, so they are psychopaths, too.
Solution to people pleasing and superiority complex is - being authentic, being honest, being yourself. Being yourself means talking the truth, stating the facts and being objective. Due to porcupine dilemma - we are forced to be interdependent with other people - to make contact and relationships with others. We are forced to be with other people - due to job, sex, friendships, networking and being neighbour - we are forced to be kind and nice in order to get along. Pathologizing being nice is breaking up these connections with other people. It destroys diplomacy. Fawning is trauma response, but having empathy and consideration for other people makes us human and gives us ability to connect with others. Fighting response - being rude destroys relationships. If we are honest and speak the truth, if we cut contact with irrational and unreasonable people who are not willing to connect and share - we will meet and forge friendships with people who are willing to contribute to mutual relationship.
Speaking the truth seems like unsignificant, but people cannot handle the truth, so speaking the truth is very potent and strong and macho. Instead of complaining, nagging, criticizing we can state the objective facts and voice out the elephant in the room.
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(21.4.2022)
What I learned is that due to Complex Trauma, self worth is being exported by toxic shame outside ourselves into the external (people, their opinions) and as result - you can't get comfortable due to trauma, there is learned helplessness by mentally unstable people that guides you through hormones and chemicals in your body (for example feeling panic, adrenaline rush being activated when someone is slightly aggressive and or you try to stand up for yourself) and this is the cause of not feeling comfortable. However this is what you are not aware, to you it seems like comfortable place to be: to be afraid and to resort to learned safety mechanisms, such as people pleasing, being quiet, shutting up, putting up with abuse and blame and criticism and nitpicking on mistakes or flaws. In this state you are aware something is wrong, but if you talk about it - you end up being negative and appear as nagging and in victim mentality. Even worse, this wound attracts toxic people who parasite over their targets being comfortable in fear and panic. Toxic people offering themselves as solution but keeping you in state of toxic shame. And this mixture mechanism of internal and external toxic shame makes you "sit there" and believe it is not possible.
It is complex and difficult to be enwrapped in fear, however I see the solution to this panic issue (being stuck in comfortable uncomfortableness) as in being authentic and honest (being vulnerable and accepting my weaknesses and flaws, dark shadow) so I am no longer triggered and controlled by other's act of shaming of my "weak" parts - and counter the toxic people (external factor) with healthy people and healthy external resources with proper guide in right direction, validation and care, such as this video from Marczell.
Accepting and validation part is: "Be honest where you are at so you can do what is necessary for the next level" "The more real you are the more likely you will get results you want"
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He is correct. It is the same process, however it does not feel in our minds as if it is tiger. It is counter-intuitive because there is no signal or noticeable change - so we continue process of thinking without being aware that our amygdala is hijacked. Also, people have learned to fawn. Fawning is also part of fight-flight response however it is attuned to modern circumstances where we know there is no tiger - yet we still react to it.
Problem is that we do not know how to deal with toxic people, people who are manipulative. We know how to deal with tiger: run or kill it. However social anxiety is signal that we do not know how to deal with Machiavellians, toxic people who live in fantasy world and shift goals, narcissistic people who nitpick our mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge.
Social anxiety is a sign that we were raised in toxic environment, complex trauma - where we learned wrong responses, wrong reactions and learned safety mechanisms and wrapped in addictions (people pleasing, codependency) and toxic habits (avoidance, pleasure seeking, eating sugar to numb the pain).
Complex PTSD is trauma being repeated and we see tigers (danger) in anything similar - whatever trigger us. Usually that are hysterical, rude, aggressive, violent people - and we interpret them as tiger and react by fawning to them, which is very painful - because it is moral injury (being witness to criminal act without doing anything about it, being immobile).
So this advice about tiger is half baked advice - since as Classical CBT - you can interpret this advice as you must stay with toxic people, since they are not tigers. Or stay in Chernobyl, because your fear of radiation is not actual tiger.
It is not tiger per se, however it is best to leave toxic people and toxic environment. Not because you are weak or small or inept (as you might feel in presence of tiger) but because it is not healthy.
Or if you cannot leave - you can speak up, alarm and alert the abusive person. Which is not option for socially anxious - since they never learned how to stand up for themselves due to toxic environment while growing up. With social anxiety - you do not know to say: "I disagree with you" and leave it at that - instead you got repeated toxic instruction(s) that you must be macho and strong and fight with people or else "you are whimp, sissy and inept for life".
And these instructions are true cause of social anxiety. These instructions are tiger, hallucination of tiger. Not the scary people who trigger social anxiety. That is what it makes it complex - to find the true source of panic.
Bad and toxic instructions make us afraid, they trigger hormones and chemicals inside to explode when we need to stand up for ourselves, and toxic shame instructs us to believe we are important in the same time being ashamed and embarrassed for existing and being there.
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"Anxiety is the body saying it feels unprepared." Anxiety lies to us. Anxiety has credibility of car salesman.
But this is complex. When we do not believe our perceptions, when we reject our reactions - in the same time we will reject our self worth. And this will grow toxic shame- Toxic shame is mental disorder and it makes us make take totally wrong and self sabotaging decisions and it makes us think in distorted manner filled with cognitive distortions and logical fallacies and prejudices.
So in the same time we have to accept our anxiety message (which is hallucination, where we interpret uncomfortable and slightly offenses the same as a tiger) - and yet in the same time we have to reject it. It is paradox, catch 22.
I see solution to allow ourselves to doubt. With social anxiety - since it really is evolutionary reaction as explained in the video - we will get into limbic, lizard brain, and our cortex brain will get offline.
Without cortex brain we are unable to get options, we forget and can't remember the best advice and best solution to solve any difficult solution. Instead it is like Windows Safe Mode - it has basic colors and basic information and basic programs running - to fight tiger or run away from it.
If we are successful at calming ourselves down, we would re-activate Cortex brain - and we would be able to manage problems and issues and toxic people who trigger us into panic.
And here lies complex problem: socially anxious people do not have functional Cortex brain. We are infected with trauma (complex PTSD) from growing up in dysfunctional and toxic environment, where we did not receive love, neither proper messages nor healthy instructions how to manage and deal with life problems.
Instead we received toxic shame - and toxic shame is ruler in our cortex brain. This practically means - we are in the constant state of being with tiger. We are constantly hypervigilant and anxious - even when there are not triggers. We get flashbacks instead.
"Normal" and healthy people get functional in their Cortex brain. They might get triggered into amygdala hijacking, something might throw them off balance - however as soon as they calm down, when threat is over - they will lead their lives, make good decisions, have wonderful life, make long term decisions to better their lives.
We on the other hand get toxic shame all the time. We are focused on avoiding people - and thus avoiding opportunities and relationships and friendships. We are focused in our comfort zone on the danger - and we are not aware of it, it is normal state of mind for us to be anxious.
In this way - the tiger for us is our toxic shame. And what he says in this video is that our tiger will appear as people who are rude and hysterical - yet we also have tiger inside our mind, as virus: toxic shame. And we got to get rid of hallucination that is toxic shame. We got wrong and toxic messages, that is what toxic shame is constructed from. We got to deconstruct and replace toxic shame with healthy instructions. One of them is video like this.
Practically we have to re-parent ourselves and seek emotional regulation.
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"our mind goes to sleep as escape from confusion." Which explains why toxic people, narcissists, emotional manipulators use aggressive manner, extraordinary accusations, shift goals - as a way to gaslight their victim into submission and confusion.
And we are instructed by society in order to society work we have to be open, friendly and assertive as solution to deal with difficult people - that we communicate and listen to the other person - where listening becomes absorbing: easy way to get hypnotized by Machiavellian, someone manipulative with hidden agenda: politicians, marketing, family abuser, drunker, violent people.
If we have toxic shame, we won't have self worth. Without self worth, we get external instruction how to deal with life and manage and make decisions. For example - someone nitpick our mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge: and we will listen to their orders and commands, which may entail their hidden agenda of manipulation. Also - macho, presumably alpha men: you tell them that piece of clothing is feminine, wuss and or gay and you will practically make command over their fashion choice.
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"Beliefs that are given to you are almost always limiting. You're limiting yourself from the next number up. Your idea of perfect is limited to what could potentially be better." This is why Socrates said that not knowing is key to wisdom. When we doubt everything, even our own conclusions, we are giving ourselves permission to tap beyond our limits in understanding and capacity to understand. It feels safe and good to have firm belief, it is the only way to have self worth and boundaries - to ward off toxic people, however it is double binding. In the same time being firm is limiting our lives. And if we decide to be open - we'll become people pleasers and pushover, toxic shame will take over the place of self worth, and we'll develop external reference locus of control, where we depend on other people's approval, validation and instruction how to manage and make decisions in our lives. The solution is simply to doubt ourselves and other people, to allow ourselves to doubt, as instructed by Descartes.
"Emotion is strategy where you want to go. What is best emotion to achieve this?" This means that resentment is "wrong" emotion, it leads to mental instability, even though it might help us to feel sense justice in narcissistic, unjust world. And this means to follow advice from "Slaughterhouse-Five": “That's one thing Earthlings might learn to do, if they tried hard enough: Ignore the awful times and concentrate on the good ones.” PureOCD techniques for intrusive worry loop thoughts also mention that we change/shift our focus, without trying to stop them.
"Focus" This explains why narcissists, manipulators, violent and aggressive people are loud and shock people around them - it is way to receive attention, even when it is negative.
I personally have problem with this - loud, aggressive and rude people steal my focus, shock my inner system and I feel panic and fawning as automatic response - which is devastating, since I avoid in the end or choose not to be so much active as I wish.
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falter = past tense: faltered; past participle: faltered lose strength or momentum. speak hesitantly. move unsteadily or hesitantly. waver
fault = past tense: faulted; past participle: faulted criticize for inadequacy or mistakes a defect or imperfection; flaw; failing: a fault in the brakes;a fault in one's character. responsibility for failure or a wrongful act: It is my fault that we have not finished. an error or mistake: a fault in addition. a misdeed or transgression: to confess one's faults.
Jordan Peterson is full of oversimplifications, he is full of logical fallacies and prejudices and biases, he comes to conclusions too quickly - he reads something and he is wrapped into this idea, focused only from one angle. Then with time, he comes across to another resource and he then has claims that are totally different from the previous one. He has no center, focus.
He says that you must be monster, to appear superior - practically to wear fake mask which is instruction for narcissistic personality disorder and mental illness. Now he says that he always liked Jung and his saying that you must be humble to realize God.
And in this video, he is talking about guilt and faltered adults. And in this 8 minutes he never mentions trauma. No mention of the world Complex Trauma - where he would explain that people have triggers and flasbacks from unfair treatment in early years when persona was forming. He does not explain this, he just dumps unnecessary information and concepts like erupting volcano without connection and cohesion and without harmony. And that is his constant alcoholic message: that people are like Homer Simpson's sperm: giant head that runs around and bumps into others with their giant head. Without clue, without agenda, without purpose, just move and jump around. He is instructing people to drive fast - well imagine if everyone was so ego-centric and self involved in life? How would people from adjoining roads enter the main road if everyone was speeding and tail-gaiting each other because he instructed them to move and jump around and be hysterical and think and focus only on your panic and anxiety? He is instructing people to develop mental illness.
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"I felt guilty and unblocked the people who I blocked" I learned this irrational guilt is due to trauma. Complex Trauma. Where we were in toxic environment when we were growing up and we were exposed to narcissistic abuse and thus instead of learning how to deal with difficult people, we were given lesson in learned helplessness and in this way we were trained like circus animals or Pavlovian dogs to obey and serve toxic people. Our body is releasing hormones and chemicals that keep this irrational guilt ongoing - and we have no clue it is happening inside our bodies. Thus our own body is drugging us and makes us addicts and codependents, by feeling this irrational guilt when we set boundary in form of door slam. It is programmed inside us to focus on toxic people, while we neglect good and kind people. It is trauma issue. Peter Levine, Gabor Mate talk about this - trauma being stuck inside our body. That irrational guilt is trauma being stuck inside us. And it is very difficult for "normal" people to understand it, since they do not and they never experienced toxic shame flooding inside us with emotions of guilt and distorted explanations about our self worth.
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"They don't care about your reality, and they can't even hear you. Boundaries only work with people who want to negotiate." Finally - Lisa Romano is great. She is talking about how reality and life is.
We have so much wrong information about assertiveness and how to say not and how to set boundaries. And most information out there is teaching us as if the other person is willing to listen to us, IT is so frustrating to follow advice to engage and talk to someone - who in reality is shifting their goal posts and invent their fantasy world - you cannot communicate anything with these people - because toxic people who need boundaries to be set - are narcissistic in the first place. These toxic people have no capacity to understand anything outside their egocentric world.
"They think they care about your reality but they don't. And you're left in this weird space feeling like nothing feels rights, everything feels off, what am I missing." Yep!
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It is paradox: if we need to set boundaries - then it means we are dealing with toxic, mentally ill person, someone ego-centric, person who is stubborn, narcissistic , it is their way or highway. When someone is people pleasing and has issue to say no - it is because this person was in close contact with mentally ill person who was unable to hear no and they mentally abused people around them. People pleasing is sign of trauma, being in long term narcissistic abuse. IT is not choice. It is not something you can change with a press of button. It is ingrained attack and aggression from mentally ill people, toxic people, Machiavellians, narcissists.
With normal people, your preferences and your truth is your boundary. You speak up normally, without fear of punishment and stabbing in the back for being normal, expressing your words without fear.
So learning how to set boundaries is useless - everyone knows how to talk and be normal and express your truth. Instead we need to deal with trauma that keeps us stuck in fear and panic and where we were hypnotized into subservience and shutting up and self-censorship due to exposure to some mentally ill person who was unable to communicate and hear others.
I learned toxic people cross their boundaries by exploiting our weak spots. Weak spots for "normal" people are our healthy and normal desire to be helpful and to be good at our jobs. Therefore toxic people will nitpick over our mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge in some task we need to do. So what happens is that we focus on our job and our task - which is totally normal and healthy reaction - so emotional vampires and parasites are eating our flesh - just because we have flesh, warm blood and energy inside. They parasite over our desire to be perfect. With trauma perfectionism becomes tool to control us.
The only problem here are toxic people, parasites. It has nothing to do with setting boundaries, rules, explanations, perceptions. The only and exclusive problem is that we do not recognize parasites and they eat us. They simply exploit our lack of awareness that these parasites exist and they exploit our normal and healthy habits and daily actions.
The only solution is to start recognizing toxic people - and cut them out of our lives.
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(25.4.2022)
"What if you are depressed, traumatized, all around negative person? how is that going to play out?" Then this means you are not authentic. If you are depressed and traumatized around negative person - this means you have external locus of control, where instead of self worth and authentic intrinsic locus of control - you seek approval and validation from negative person. In this way negative person is setting up and determining your mood, this person is controlling you. If you are authentic, if you have self worth inside you 1) you would move away from negative person 2) you would minimize contact 3) you would learn and educate yourself about toxic people and narcissistic people 4) you would learn these people are mentally ill and whatever they say is their illness, fantasy, schizophrenic thinking that appears as reality to them and they cannot help themselves to be nothing else but negative 5) whatever they say it would not bother you any more since you realize your worth and value comes from inside and not from negative people who are hallucinating their reality and thus they are unreliable source of information and data 6) if you cannot cut contact immediately, you would make sure to make plans how to move away or at least minimize contact with such person
IF you are authentic you would speak up and be honest - and you would mold and transform such people since you would alarm and alert them when they are negative. Not in the way to control them or order them nor to command them. More like making them realize they are mentally ill without explicitly speaking it out - by speaking up the facts and objective reality, voicing out the elephant in the room.
Trauma make us shut up, we lose our voice, we do not express ourselves. This triggers depression too. When we shut up, when we do not voice out our opinion, when we self censor ourselves - we are not authentic.
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This is interesting. I made topic on reddit social anxiety forum labeled as "Everyone has social anxiety" and my point was that during growing up, all kids have some certain level of social anxiety- and kids in functional homes and healthy environment came up with solution and fix-ups that helped them process social anxiety from exploding. While traumatic kids, children with someone who is criticizing them all the time missed to form persona and learn the lessons how to deal and manage with people who are difficult.
Also another point was that people who appear confident and without anxiety - that these people wear mask, they are mostly narcissistic and they actually have huge social anxiety beneath the acting surface that appears confident. The more aggressive, loud, desperate for attention - the more anxiety is inside, inferiority complex being covered up with superiority complex.
And I got a lot of negative comments from socially anxious people there that this is not true. They could not believe that someone who acts without anxiety could have anxiety issues, such as social anxiety. Yet - if someone is difficult, uncaring, without empathy - these people are actually over-compensating and try to appear strong.
Which is interesting phenomena. We all heard about Michael Jackson or Cher having social anxiety issues - yet they both claimed that when they are on stage, the anxiety is gone and they perform - nobody would notice or think that they suffer from social anxiety, being in the spotlight and in the public. I believe that loud obnoxious people, people who trigger our social anxiety: difficult people, screamers, hysterical ones, along with people who appear extremely confident - they all are covering up something, it is act of over-compensation, they wear a mask, they react to some trauma and they are fake.
Social anxiety is natural at certain level. It is normal to experience shame and guilt and embarrassment and fear. Without it, something is not right - there is imbalance. Conclusion is: Normal people are abnormal.
Carl Jung: “As a consequence there are many people who become neurotic because they are only normal, as there are people who are neurotic because they cannot become normal. For the former the very thought that you want to educate them to normality is a nightmare; their deepest need is really to be able to lead "abnormal" lives.”
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"Found out the other day I don’t have anxiety. It was my thyroid was to high" All our emotions are chemical and related to hormones. Anxiety is not fog or entity that exists out of nowhere.
With trauma we are trained like Pavlovian dogs or learned helplessness into feeling irrational guilt and fear - which is chemical and hormones rush when we stand up for ourselves, since we were punished in toxic environment whenever we would express our opinion. This way we were trained like circus animals into performing tricks - in our case it is releasing of rush of chemicals that cause irrational guilt whenever we experience something embarrassing, traumatic, some trauma trigger- it is all chemicals influencing our feelings - which we label as anxiety.
Our explanations of these chemicals are doing the real damage here. With social anxiety we learned to build safety mechanisms in the form of cognitive distortions which helped us make sense and explain the toxic people and their punishments in order to explain the adult hysteria and their mental illness we experiences through criticism and punishment. Now as adults we are stuck with anxiety that is structured with these childhood wrong and distorted explanations about our uncomfortable feelings and they are all based on chemicals and hormones, which is basically trauma being stuck inside our body. Long term exposure to narcissistic abuse cause brain damage - google it.
Who knows, perhaps your thyroid is high due to receiving relentless criticism 24/7 from toxic environment in young age when child brain was forming.
"Society attacks early when the individual is helpless." B.F. SKINNER
The point is that we missed the messages and techniques how to deal with unknown situations that trigger our social anxiety. Instead we are stuck with childish/childhood thwarted explanations we gave ourselves when we were growing up in toxic environment without love.
The body is making us stuck in anxiety - due to chemicals, hormones which are trained to experience trauma all over again and again, keeping us in the loop of wrong explanations how to deal with it. That is basically social anxiety - being stuck in cycle of distorted, thwarted explanations along with bodily fluids influencing our thoughts.
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I exposed myself - and I ended up being people pleaser, pushover and fawning. In toxic environment, in shame culture, people trigger you. They find their way.
Social anxiety is result of long term narcissistic abuse.
This means we missed the lessons how to deal with toxic people - including missing the red flags and Stockholm Syndrome where toxic person appears very attractive to us, this includes toxic habits, too.
I ended up with people accusing me of untrue, unfair things. I ended up taking up tasks with me explaining me being uncomfortable as social anxiety - so I would shut up and self censor myself and stay stuck with toxic people - just for the sake of being exposed and being among people. So in this way exposure means being in Chernobyl and healing your agoraphobia. And convincing yourself that you must be outside and in the open. Yet it is still lethal and radioactive environment.
Another thing I learned in the span of 20 years - so hopefully this will help someone to cut those years: is that toxic people, narcissistic people target our sense of loneliness and sense of being helpful and useful - so they criticize and nitpick on mistakes and flaws and lack of knowledge. SO with social anxiety you end up explaining their unfair and toxic criticism as social anxiety - so you do nothing and take up the abuse.
And you cannot be honest and authentic - since they target your mistakes, flaws and anything unperfect, lack of knowledge - so you cannot defend yourself. Basically they are correct . but this is ethical rudeness.
It is not socially normal to make fun of other people. It is abnormal to expect perfection from others, especially if they do something for the first time.
There are toxic people out there and with social anxiety we were traumatized in childhood, we grew up without love - and now we normalize abuse and toxic people as normal instead of cutting contact with them. And we don't do that since advice is to expose ourselves and to make friendships a lot.
Long term narcissistic abuse cause brain damage.
Exposure to socially anxious people means we will attract toxic narcissistic people. We attract them like moth to a flame: we want to be open, we want to expose, so we have a need - and they will exploit it, like parasites or emotional vampires.
They will sniff out our kindness and willingness to form friendships with everyone, our openness. Toxic people get their energy through sucking other people's emotions - they do this through criticism and nitpicking and creating drama.
If we expose without knowing toxic people as phenomena, we will be in toxic environment and we'll convince ourselves that it is not toxic. We will create new trauma, on the top of existing one.
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Jordan Peterson is prone to oversimplifications, biases, prejudices and he is mentally ill.
Here, he based his advice on faulty 1990s research of social anxiety where they based their test subject which had shyness issues, not social anxiety. People with social anxiety are focused on other people. They are zoomed onto other people already. They are paying very close attention to their words, what they say, how to act. So he is talking wrong explanation what is social anxiety.
Another bias he is talking here is that socially anxious people lack social skills. This is untrue. Social anxiety means empathy and being highly aware of other people and their needs- this means there is no ego-centric point of view -and this is the core of social skills: being able to put yourself in other people shoes. The problem is toxic shame and trauma which is stopping us from expressing ourselves, we shut up due to rush of hormones and chemicals of stress - and we appear as we have no skills. It is like water on Mars - buried beneath the surface. A lot of people pay huge money to learn empathy and ability to diminish ego.centrism - and with social anxiety we have this ability naturally inside us. So he is giving wrong and detrimental advice here and leading you into wrong direction. He is toxically ashaming people who are already toxically ashamed.
Then he talks about anxiety as monster. He is hypnotizing us into believing that if we feel anxiety we should panic and experience catastrophe. Anxiety in low dosage is healthy poison. The purpose of anxiety is that we detect toxic people. Similar to radiation detector. Without anxiety we would tolerate radiation, similar to being in Chernobyl and staying there because it looks like nice nature.
Social anxiety is product of Complex trauma - this means we grew up in toxic environment where we learned to normalize abusive toxic people as normal and something we should endure and rationalize. Now we miss red flags because we suppress our social anxiety - which is triggering on very small cues of toxicity. Social anxiety is mechanism - alarm defense system - which is now very delicate due to narcissistic abuse we gone through during growing up. If we destroy this system, we will stay with toxic people and they will ruin our life.
He says acting in courageous manner - this is advice to become narcissist. To wear a mask of superiority to cover up inferiority complex. We have inferiority complex because we were exposed to toxic people who taught us to distrust ourselves and this way we got toxic shame instead of self worth.
With self worth we can be authentic and we can express what we want and need. That is courageous. To not go along with herd mentality and groupthink. Jordan Peterson says to be courageous means that you are hysterical, monster, that you see society as monster and you react to monster by being monster. That is mentally ill advice.
If we talk honestly - that will destroy toxic fake people, and they will interpret your truth as monster.
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People pleasing is sign of trauma. It is not something you can change/stop with press of a button. Can you imagine what kind of trauma there had to be if you as adult are unable to say no to someone? People pleasing is indication we were exposed to mentally ill person, probably during growing up. Long term exposure to narcissistic abuse causes fawning as safety mechanism to deal with hysterical and mentally ill people who are aggressive.
Advice to say "give me a minute to think about it" - should go along with detection of toxic people. How toxic people react when you say no to them. And how are we reacting to their "punishment" based on our no. Can we handle being isolated and without their presence? With trauma we are attracting toxic people like moth to a flame, and there is inferiority complex coupled with codependency issues. None of that are mentioned in general media - and this is distracting people pleasers in wrong direction. Misaligned advice is as detrimental as wrong advice.
So yeah -when she is talking about manipulation here - that is the core of people pleasing. Being stuck in Karpman Drama Triangle. We have to opt out of drama.
Guilt is mechanism of people pleasing - because in early age when we were formed as person, we were punished whenever we expressed ourselves, our needs and our opinions. This is at the core of people pleasing: being trained like circus animal, Pavlovian dog into subservience and seeking approval and validation from external source, since we were toxically ashamed whenever we were authentic. Now whenever people pleaser will try to stand up and express true opinion - the rush of hormones and chemicals will influence experiencing irrational guilt -and this keeps us trapped inside Karpman Drama Triangle. People pleasers will attract toxic and manipulative people like moth to a flame.
Chances are if you are people pleasers you have plethora of parasites around you, sucking your energy of kindness and being nice and basically being normal human being, empathetic and friendly. Problem is that with trauma (CPTSD) experience we never learned how to recognize red flags, how to deal with difficult people, how to cut contact, how to express ourselves, how to be authentic and honest - instead we learned toxic shame and to feel embarrassed just for existing.
The world is healing - people are starting to be aware of Putins and how to detect them and remove them from our life. There are kind and nice people out there for whom we never find time and energy since we are hypnotized into serving and obeying and taking orders, commands and drama from narcissistic and borderliners, toxic people.
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Good side of people pleasing is diplomacy and helping others. So you are correct, saying no as "solution" to people pleasing is another extreme that is also detrimental and dysfunctional.
As you said in this video, I see people pleasing as sign of Complex trauma, sign of being exposed to narcissistic abuse when growing up, and being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse.
I learned we don't have boundaries - ability to say we can't do something, say no - is related to our need to be perfect, to be helpful and to be productive. So what happens with toxic people - they are nitpicking on our need to be productive. They simply criticize our mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge - and we feel embarrassed, ashamed - they shock us into subservience and hypnosis. And we end up saying yes.
The point is - if you need to give a reason, if you need to set boundaries - if you feel like you need to say no in order not to feel exhausted - it is sign there is toxic person on the other side. So our people pleasing is not actual problem here. Problem are abusive, narcissistic people, especially borderliners: people who appear as friends, people who exhibit certain form of empathy enough to get us hooked and open up to them- however their empathy is agenda and focused to control us.
If you are in healthy environment, you will not feel drained whatever you do.
I noticed this is also connected with self worth and external reference locus of control. If we were traumatized and we developed fawning as safety mechanism to deal with narcissistic, hysterical and abnormal people - chances are we have toxic shame and this means we will base our opinions, decisions and choices based on approval of other people. We will seek validation from external.
I see self worth as solution to people pleasing in natural way - that we base our life on our values, instead of groupthink and going along with herd mentality.
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If we need to set boundaries - it means there is toxic person on the other side. Trauma is the cause of people pleasing - why would adult person had any issue to saying no to other person other than being toxically ashamed when growing up. I see with trauma we never learned how to recognize toxic people - and also we never learned how to manage and handle toxic people.
People pleasing has good sides - to have diplomacy and to help others. I see the only problem here are toxic people who take advantage of people who are willing to help others and to listen to others and to help others without expecting anything in (re)turn.
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"If you do not see immediate danger, you brain is throwing out false signal." What if this is part is muddled up? When you live in toxic environment, with narcissist who is gaslighting and using smear campaign, a lot of lying and blaming the scapegoat. Toxic people who will nitpick and criticize your mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge - where they basically are correct and true, however ethical rudeness is still being rude. And exposure to long term narcissistic abuse causes brain damage.
So toxic person will set you up to triggers and flashbacks, there is no immediate danger, yet they shock you in order to hypnotize you into confusion and not knowing how to react to hidden and altruistic abuse.
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(26.4.2022)
I noticed my inner critic is connected to being exposed to relentless criticism while growing up, 24/7. I learned this is called Complex Trauma. Now I want to be perfect, and this is almost hypnotic, and desire to serve and be without mistakes is what is producing inner criticism. There is also desire not to get embarrassed, what other person, spectator might criticize so I pre-emptively try to evade situations which may draw criticism, so it is connected to social anxiety. With Complex Trauma I learned that there is constant hypervigilance, this is state where inner critic reigns and overlooks anything I do, that must be perfect and without any potential criticism. Polyvagal Theory explains how we change states like atom gets over-excited and changes its path orbit, either into hypervigilance or hypo-vigilance. That certain triggers create this over-excitement.
I also learned that with inner critic inside, since there are many safety mechanism to keep safe from criticism (which is unrealistic since mistakes are natural part of life and growing and progress) - this inner criticism process attracts toxic people who sniff out people who are afraid of criticism and take advantage of people who have installed inner critic through smear campaign and gaslighting. Which is serious issue,, since we have inner critic and external critic now, someone who reflects inner world. Inner critic will make us feel domestic with verbal abuse, since this is familiar surroundings.
I see the third wave of CBT called DBT as good direction to manage issues with criticism.
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I noticed in toxic environment "Is it true" question is related to criticism, inner or external, regarding our mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge. Mistakes are natural part of any work and/or progress. Flaws are sometimes ingrained and cannot be changed, yet they will be focus of criticism. And lack of knowledge is persistent - we cannot attain ultimate knowledge due to lack of brain capacity to store all data. All these are exploited by toxic people and inner criticism - where we are accused of not being perfect. And in a way, it is true, we are not perfect, no one is. However toxic people and inner critics package this "truth" about not being perfect as ultimate truth about our character - so toxic shame is used in the process of criticism.
In this way "truth" is used against us, and it immobilize us into subservience and it locks us into toxic shame cycle. The nitpicking and pinpointing our natural urge to be helpful and productive, it is being perverted and used against ourselves as tool to ashame us into silence and being a slave to the critic - since critic appears as truth speaker, and we are constantly in the wrong.
I see solution in DBT - that I accept my mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge as something normal. Paradox is as soon as I accept my mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge, I make less mistakes, I curb by flaws and I am open to learn more about any subject I lack insight about. With criticism I am constantly in hypervigilance, in tense, constricted mood where I do make more mistakes, where I am acutely aware of my flaws and where I have no energy to learn anything, keeping me in cycle to receive toxic shame as truth.
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I learned beneath ambition can lie toxic habits such as perfectionism. The result is hypervigilance, constant sense of doom, anxiety, PureOCD issues, worry loops. I learned that perfectionism is desire to appear without mistakes or flaws - and toxic people can control our actions and mood by nitpicking and criticizing our mistakes. Where our desire to be productive and ambitious is now used against ourselves - to feel ashamed for not being perfect, and for having mistakes in whatever we say or do. The solution is to be ok with being mistaken, flawed, not perfect and being fine in lack of knowledge, willing to be vulnerable and admit it, without trying to hide it or deny it.
Another toxic habit is external reference locus of control - which means that I base my life decision in relation to what I think other people may approve and validate. So instead of aligning to my values, I base my value on what other person will deem as ok. Likewise, what they disapprove I feel toxic shame. For example - Macho men can be controlled with this easily. You might think they use their strength and formidable posture as superiority over others. However if you tell them that their shirt looks feminine and they will never wear it again, in order for them to feel strong and macho - you control them - and ironically they are not neither strong nor macho.
I see that with self worth inside us, intrinsic locus of control - we choose to take steps in life aligned to our own decisions what is important. With toxic shame inside us - without knowing it, we are controlled by other people - their criticism and their opinion and their definition of what is acceptable and validated.
I see toxic shame as the reason why we are resentful, it distorts our explanations, and we form bias and quick conclusions based on fear and deep shame. As I said, with toxic shame inside us - we will turn to other people to lead and manage our life, other people will decide what is good and what is bad.
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(27.4.2022)
@Nawaf Ibrahim " as the quality of my life is not directly affected then this person can be in my orbit." Some toxic people employ honeymoon phases, they are excellent manipulators, they represent themselves as saviours, altruistic at moments, and you do not realize you are in the presence of toxic person, so they stay in your orbit. Similar to radioactivity - you do not see it, but it is still toxic. In this way, certain toxic people will stay in your orbit - and they will influence your mood, decisions, perceptions and conclusions - without you being aware of it. You will think it is your fault, and you will feel depressed out of no reason. Toxic people are excellent at gaslighting and smear campaign, that is that makes them toxic.
"Because having a family is a virtue and a duty, at least in oriental cultures" Labels and social conformity make us stuck in Karpman Drama Triangle. We victimize ourselves by explanations of duty.
"It would be nice if I could change them" As I said, this is external reference locus of control. This means we depend on other people to feel, to experience emotions, our conclusions and judgement are connected with other people, and we do not realize it at all. This is also called Trauma bonding. With invisible connections, we form our opinion based on what other person may say, criticize or demand - usually in fear of retaliation or some kind of punishment.
Again, this is all indication of being in presence of toxic people. Toxic people will thwart our decisions, clear vision, they will infect our self worth with toxic shame. And once we have toxic shame, we will develop trauma bonding, since we will not trust our own judgements - and this is path to depression. We will react to toxic people. They will trigger us. The solution is that we are no longer triggered by toxic people - even in their presence. I see awareness as helping hand - that we are aware of what is really going on, instead of running on auto-pilot and reacting to life. Instead we take the driver's seat and make our own decisions based on clear knowledge about what is going on.
Having quick labels, biases, logical fallacies, one party system in our mind not allowing opposition and different opinion, and social conformity is not being in driver's seat.
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"You have to remind yourself ¸about your strengths" You can't - with inferiority complex there is toxic shame inside. Toxic shame prevents this process. It thwarts your strengths into worthiness. That is what makes it toxic.
"Feelings of insecurities emerge from different incidents such as a) romantic dump b) fired from job. These insecurities lead to inferiority complex." Nope, it is being exposed to adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process it in any other way than developing safety mechanisms and immature ego defense mechanisms - that entail inferiority complex. The idea in child mind is - if I make myself enough small, I will not draw attention - this less criticism, less punishment. It is being exposed to untreated mentally ill person who is aggressive, who is dumping criticism and nitpicking all the time, 24/7, usually to men it is about messages you must prove your worth by doing something all the time, finishing tasks and to be macho men, toxic masculinity in order to prove your worth to someone. Again, toxic shame is culprit, not romantic arguing or economy. Romantic dump and getting fired from a job - yes, it can make you feel inferior, however as adult - without trauma experience of toxic shame - a healthy person might feel inferior for about 5 minutes, or 5 days - however good, healthy natural part of brain is so strong that it can have ability to shift focus and move on. For traumatized people, due to brain injury caused due to being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse, this shifting and re-focus is impossible, because trauma is stuck inside the body, like grove on the record.
"You keep attacking your self esteem in times when it is most fragile" The programming is doing the attacking. The brain injury inside the body due to being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse is doing the hypnosis and attacking. IT is not a choice. It is not something you can have control over. It is trauma being stuck inside our bodies, it is wired with chemicals and rush of hormones triggered in certain situations - like Pavlovian dogs reacting to bell, it is learned helplessness. It is like being a circus animal that is performing trick - in that way, the attack is circus act installed by mentally ill person in our childhood, we were exposed to toxic environment which may not be our parents - it can be someone in our close vicinity - school, neighborhood, media.
"by boosting your self esteem" Nope. It is not self esteem. It is self worth. There is a difference. Self esteem is superficial. It is when you win a lottery ticket - it is fleeting. You spend your luck money - and you are back to square one. That is why many lottery winners end up broke and addicted to drugs. While they get fortune, they feel great, they have self esteem to sniff cocaine and spend money on rubbish. Thus they ruin they lives by having high self esteem boosted by surge of money. They do not have self worth. Self worth is inside, it is basic value - knowing your soul, deep core who you are and what is your worth, inside, internal, intrinsic worth. This external reference, seeking approval and worth from others make the person with inferiority complex to be "sensitive to both criticism and compliments" as said in 1:52, because there is no self worth, there is no intrinsic locus of control. Instead there is social conformity, herd mentality and groupthink. Which is very common in society - so inferiority complex is not problem of small percentage of traumatized population at all.
"People with inferiority complexes feel responsible for mistakes and shortcomings of others" This is due to toxic shame. Toxic shame exports our self worth into other people. Then we base our worth on what other people want, think and on their opinion. This is called external reference locus of control or trauma bonding. Our self worth is now in other people, it is not inside us. Our locus of control are other people worth. Their worth is determining our values, opinions, and we see other people's desires as our own personal commands and orders. That is trauma bonding, that is seeking external approval and validation from others. We try to fulfill our own worth through other people. We do not have self worth inside us. It is in other people. That is why we feel responsible for other people's mistakes and shortcomings. And even more than that - they trigger our own mistakes and shortcomings, lack of knowledge -and they toxically ashame our mistakes. This way, they have total control over our decisions and emotions. We are now trauma bonded with other people - and all this is happening due to toxic shame and external reference locus of control. Toxic shame is virus inside us and it thwarts our reality, making us experience inferiority complex.
"They avoid risk" Not necessarily. If other person orders them, they will do it. This is because of external locus of control. For example, macho men are very insecure. They appear strong and vulgar and violent - but this is because they are covering up their inferiority complex with superiority complex. This way, they do take a lot of risks - and this risk beahviour is based on inferiority complex. Or having promiscuous behaviour - it is risk taking, however person with toxic shame will try to please other people and seek pleasure by engaging in toxic habits, forming toxic relationships and enjoying being inside Karpman Drama Triangle, exchanching the roles of victim and persecutor or saviour. So there is risk taking - and it is controlled by other people opinions and crticisim and their convictions and biases and prejudgments. You simply tell macho guy that the trip to certain place is feminine, and they will prove you by taking a risk to going on a trip to dangerous country instead. You tell insecure man that he is not macho if he is not married and have no kids - and he will force himself to marry and have kids only to prove he is macho and accepted by toxic community. There is no plan, there is no assessment if he can afford money - so he is basing his life decisions on opinion of others and take a risk. Someone insecure on the road will see hysteric drivers around and tail-gaiting him - so this person will conclude that he must be driving fast also. He will take risk of driving beyond the speed limit in order to comply to toxic behaviour and to prove its own worth to toxic people by being idiot on the road, by driving fast and tailgating drivers who obey speed limit. This risk adventures will work until criticism and punishment by authority or someone stronger. In toxic countries there are no punishment by authorities, but there are toxic people who spread their toxic abuse onto easy targets.
"Superiority complex is the opposite of inferiority complex" This is incorrect information. Superiority complex is part of inferiority complex. Narcissists are extremely sensitive to criticism, and they use criticism to hurt other people. Quote from the web site simplypsychology: 'Adler (2013a) claims that superiority complexes are born out of inferiority complexes; they are “one of the ways which a person with an inferiority complex may use a method of escape from his difficulties”'
"Help treating inferiority complex by repetitive positive statements" This does not help due to toxic shame. Toxic shame thwarts facts. Anxiety lies to us, it has credibility of car salesman. The problem is self worth - how to install self worth back where it belongs. Mantra will not help with this process - because toxic shame is blocking the messages to come through. So the solution is counter-intuitive. It is paradoxical, since confidence is paradox. If you want to feel confident you will feel inferior and you will over-compensate - in the end you will appear very inferior. On the other hand - paradoxically if you accept your flaws, mistakes, lack of knowledge and anything your find disgusting about yourself, aka dark shadow - you will feel confident in return. This is the basis of humanistic psychology and DBT.
DBT is third wave of CBT. Classical CBT is focused on symptoms - and due to toxic shame, this created more panic symptoms and inferiority complex. This happens due to toxic shame. So Classical CBT does not work. DBT does because it targets toxic shame and offers mental thinking to manage toxic shame which is the root cause of any disorder.
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"The essence of understanding our personalities is to identify our weaknesses, work on them, and become better versions of ourselves" I learned this is not so noble and harmless. In fact, this is the root of hypervigilance, feelings of fear and anxiety. If we try to fix something that is not broken - this will make additional stress. We only change when we accept ourselves as Humanistic psychologist tell us. If we identify parts of ourselves as weak and disgusting and unworthy - we will develop inferiority complex and we will try to over-compensate in order to attain perfection, which we will explain as upgrading. However we will be stuck in rat wheel, running in circles without any outcome. One of the result of pathologizing ourselves will lead to being over-sensitive and all these toxic behaviours described in the video: nitpicking and being critical. I see toxic shame behind all toxic traits described in video. Toxic shame tell us that we are not enough as we are. That we must upgrade ourselves just for the sake of upgrading - as a tool to feel superior so that we do not feel the pain. Human mind is not built to be god - so rejecting and ignoring parts of ourselves to achieve superior macho god status will lead to safety mechanisms and immature ego defense mechanisms, we will react to life - instead of living it. This will breed plethora of panic attack issues, anxiety and being in constant state of hypervigilance, it is having narcissistic mask, false façade in order to appear strong in the eyes of enemy (enemy being all people around us).
"The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am then I can change." Carl Rogers
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"Your standards are very low" I would turn this around and see it from a completely different angle, let's try not to be ego-centric:
If we have a need to say no, if there is need to have boundaries, if there is a need to have some kind of contract, and if I am obsessed about what is in my control and what is not, if I am worried what I need to accept from other people... all these are red flags actually. This means we are in contact with toxic person and or in toxic environment. And we are not aware that they are toxic, we make rationalizations and stay in Karpman Drama Triangle - where we are saviours who save ourselves from persecutions by creating "boundaries". Saviour role inside Karpman Drama Triangle is identifying traumatized people as people pleasers and send them off to therapists , where most therapist have no idea what is Complex Trauma, since it is not recognized by official mental community. Saviour role in this Karpman Drama Triangle will feel superior for identifying lower beings as faulty and narcissist-altruistically help them to mental institution in a Nurse Ratched style.
"If you define your boundaries, figure out how I treat myself" I would name this self worth. Intrinsic locus of control. Which means that I accept my views and desires - and not let other people opinion to influence it. With self worth - there is no need to enforce boundaries - I only need to be authentic and honest. No drama. No explosions, No wars - it is simply stating my opinion, voicing out elephant in the room. Being scientific and see facts and rely on my common sense what is the difference between good and wrong.
"Enforce them when boundaries are crossed" Yet, if I constantly let people know what I need - I will be entitled, I will appear highly narcissistic, I feel become difficult person, hysterical also, without empathy and without negotiation. So I might be Putin and decide that land that belonged once in history to my land is actually mine, I will interpret people who are sovereign state there as they are crossing my boundary. So if I enforce my boundary - I can be crazy narcissistic person - and the problem is actually me. Problem is enforcing my boundary. So enforcing boundary - perhaps it would be good thing to take retrospection and see what is real, reality, facts and truth before I engage in Karen mode.
"If you let that bully know, that bully will never deal with you ever again" Unless they are mentally ill and they stab you in the back, engage in smear campaign, gaslighting and use love bombing to keep parasitic relationship ongoing. In this way I would rather learn about toxic people and narcissistic people so that I can recognize parasites.
"People will constantly test your boundaries" Again, I would not generalize. In healthy environment you do not have to worry about someone taking advantage of you. I realized toxic people target our mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge - so in this way they exploit our vulnerabilities. Take this in situation where you are in inferior position: where you depend on other person due to finances, service or resource - they will attack your vulnerabilities, perhaps our urge to be good person: to be productive - and they will nitpick and criticize our imperfections - they will cross our boundaries. That is true problem here. That is what people who have trouble with boundaries are struggling with. It is not fear of opinion of other people about you - it is them targeting your mistakes and flaws - so you are not in position to ignore them, since you made honest mistake.
I see solution as ability to take off the veil from our eyes and see reality in clarity.
If we focus on boundaries from the perspective of people taking advantage of us and that we have to "stand up" - this is very superficial outtake of border crossing, in Trump style. As if you built huge wall, you will solve all problems. Nope, the wall will take too much resources, energy and money to sustain it and you will pay it in form of hypervigilance and anxiety, constant state of alarm.
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I received comment from one person on reddit regarding social anxiety - where that person tells me that they do not have trauma. I tried to explain - if you have social anxiety, which is fear of criticism and being unable to take regulate emotions, being dysregulated, trying to hide from people, avoiding - it is all stemming from trauma, there had to be some shocking event that caused the fears and anxiety that block us in life. This is explained in this video - trauma being block from achieving potential in life. I see third wave of DBT and CPT and Humanistic Psychology - as being focused on action to do things we are not ready to undertake with trauma.
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I see it like this: If you need to speak up for yourself, it is not problem of being nice - it is toxic people on the other side. If you identify and label parts of yourself as "weak" - you will pathologize your psyche, it is road to mental instability, being in constant state of hypervigilance, where you try to overcompensate, appear superior - which leads to narcissistic personality disorder. If you try to mess and nitpick on your own persona - and try not to be "like girl" - you will end up being nervous, you will paradoxically become girl: because you will obsess how people see you - and other people will control your decisions, because you will be scared if you come off as girl in other people eyes. Why would their opinion matter so much? It means that I value other people more than my own persona.
If you put your foot down, if you feel like you must stand up for yourself - if you do this - other toxic people will control you. They will trigger you - and you will react to them. They will control you like circus animal and you will perform tricks for them by reacting to their provocations. This is what toxic people do - they nitpick and criticize your mistakes, flaws, lack of knowledge and flaws that are not even your responsibility - and you will need to present yourself as strong and valuable - by hysteria and talking back to them - the reaction is problem here. You are doing as they want, they set up the stage and you are their actor, they do this by receiving negative attention. You make other person to be your god, you end up thinking about what you should say, how to say it, how to defend yourself - you end up obsessing over this person - with the goal to come off as strong and respected and validated. You end up being worried and nervous and you lose calmness and you lose your focus on things to be done - instead you are obsessively focused on standing up for yourself. This is called Karpman Drama Triangle - where you exchange the role of victim and persecutor. Feeling superior might feel good and amazing - if you curse and hit someone - but you are still inside Karpman Drama Triangle and you are still being controlled by toxic person. From your perspective it seems like you are in charge because you play pretend and act to be superior by standing up for yourself and being hysterical. Toxic people are emotional vampires, they feed off these emotions you invest in them, even if they are negative and they lead to nowhere and without conclusion.
I see better solution as recognizing the need to set boundaries as red flag - it is signal that you are in the presence of untreated mentally ill person - and you cut contact, minimize contact - or if you cannot any of these - to state facts and need in scientific way - being honest, authentic without drama and without explosions. Without bonding with such person. Toxic people try to get attention from us, even if it is negative attention. They drain our energy and leave us worried, stressed and we focus on them. There are good people out there that are kind and nice, people whom we perhaps may labelled them as girl, weak, or sissy - who would never treat us like crap and play narcissistic mind games of superiority. The point of drama is to take away our focus and energy without us realizing what is happening. They trigger our weak points and we are engaged into their fun and games. And we are left drained. Unlike Ukraine, we are not country - we can have much better options to deal with Putins of this world. Such as cutting contact, opting out off drama, minimizing contact and not playing by their rules.
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That is basic misunderstanding in life in general: There is no absolute truth. This is at the core of philosophy research for millennia, ever since Ancient Greece. This makes so much distortions and disbalance - if we are convinced in our truth, this will create ego-centrism and mental instability. However if we allow democracy in our head, ability and possibility that we might be wrong - we will have much healthier view. People are prone to cognitive fallacies - because we jump to quick conclusions and thus we form biases and prejudices. We are literally living in Plato's cave, where shadow on the wall appear as reality to us.
"The belief that one's own view of reality is the only reality is the most dangerous of all delusions." Paul Watzlawick
Here it becomes complex. The problem is when we disbelieve ourselves, we will develop toxic shame. With toxic shame we export our self worth into other people - and we become sheep, herd mentality, we will seek external validation, that other people explain truth to us.
So I see the way out of this complex truth paradox by cutting the truth where we deem it is the best, with the veto inside our head that makes us aware that we might be wrong. So that we are open to criticism and opposite opinion, that we listen to others, that we re-evaluate, that we have ability to admit we were wrong, and that we voice out out truth. our opinion with knowing that people who criticize us have cognitive dissonance and they probably cannot handle the truth since it will crush their self worth and that will be painful for them.
Confirmation bias will keep us stuck in ego-centrism. Having ability to know there are different angles and dimensions than our own world gives us ability to learn, to progress and to cooperate with other people. Toxic people, narcissistic people operate on their own truth and imposing their truth to others. Narcissistic injury is when they cannot handle the truth, since they build up their face on fake mask. In this way : If we cannot handle other person's view - we are being toxic. Accepting does not mean we go along and shut up. It simply means acknowledging that our truth is limited and we can never know what is going on in the world. However in order to have confidence and ability to make our own decisions, we have to be stubborn at the certain level with the ability to doubt ourselves and others, as Rene Descartes instructed us: we will start to think only when we allow ourselves to doubt everything.
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(28.4.2022)
"the discussion is about a negative person not a toxic person." That is the problem. If some person is depressed and confused - this is not a choice. There had to be some toxic person on the other side who caused this state. Either directly by words or indirectly by their behaviour.
There are toxic people out there, parasites - they are toxic and parasite because they are clever enough to mask their toxicity.
“Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by fools.”
I am not topic here, it does not matter if you want to accept my words or not. Socially anxious people think this way - you think you must accept opinion of other people, especially those who are thinking the opposite from your confirmation bias. You think other people are superior. You have toxic shame that is producing this trauma bonding, inferiority complex and external reference locus of control - where you put your self worth in other people, and then you experience moral injury and social anxiety because you live your life through other people opinions, statements and words - and you fight with them. You try to rationalize and analyze my words, put label on me so you can have superiority over me, you are in battle with other people - that is all trauma, inflicted by toxic people around you, untreated mentally ill people in your environment.
Truth is that people are allowed to think whatever they want, you cannot control other people. There is no absolute truth - with social anxiety you think there is absolute truth and you think everyone must think in the same way, as in communism, with one leader who will take responsibility for lives of others, while you are safe from criticism and negative evaluation. That is trauma bonding, codependency.
For example you said: "You view family as something dispensable" 1) who cares what I think, it has no influence on you. 2) you cannot judge a person over you tube comments, you cannot put labels on people - that are solid as brick and then judge, put quick judgement on people in order to resolve your confusion and anxiety. This will give birth to bias and cognitive fallacies and wrong conclusions - that will influence your anxiety levels 3) people are allowed to have opinions. Without it, they would not have mind of their own. Our conclusions and perceptions of the world make our self worth inside us. Instead of toxic shame which produces mental illness. I can be wrong, why I would not be allowed to make mistakes? If you do not allow other people to be mistaken, a) you are trying to manipulate and control other people - which is narcissistic and aggressive, it is toxic, so you are not a good person b) you will not allow yourself to be mistaken - so you will try to achieve being perfect- this perfectionism is at the core of any mental illness. Then you will wonder why you feel depressed and negative. This is mind process you were programmed through Complex Trauma, being exposed to toxic environment without love, without validation, without acceptance. Instead there was one mindset party system, tyranny of shoulds and musts, toxic shame and mental illness of being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse.
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Yeah, the movie Daniel from 1983 had line that made me realize that toxic people are harvesting and farming their targets through irrational guilt:
"So you ask, what is the motivation for a man to do what he did? Well, one motivation is to believe, or to have been persuaded to believe, in his own guilt. And to live in mortal fear of the consequences. Another is to believe, or to have been persuaded to believe, in the guilt of his friends and to live in mortal fear of the consequences."
I learned that they scapegoat their targets, project and blame others - by nitpicking and criticizing other people's targeted mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge. In this way, you are flabbergasted in reaction, you have no defense, they shut you up - since you are in position to defend yourself, they are always one-man-upship with them where they are always in superior position without any responsibility, and this is because they focus on perverting our need to be productive, to be good member of society, to be helpful member of community and to do our job in correct way, without mistakes. Mistakes are normal part of life, yet they highlight it as guilt - this way they impose perfectionism onto us and they exploit loopholes in unwritten social contract where you must be fair to others and keep your part of deal by fulfilling your tasks. In this way you cannot stand up for yourself - since they specifically target in their criticism, blaming and guilt tripping your honest mistake, flaw and or lack of knowledge, so they have argument which you cannot refute. Mistake is there. Flaws (internal or external) are there. Lack of knowledge is there, even when there is philosophical fact that no one can have absolute knowledge - we are not gods nor computers.
So instead of recognizing that mistakes are normal part of life, they turn it as deliberate act of aggression. As if we are aggressive one. As if we are hurting them by our mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge. As if they have no mistakes, no flaws and they know everything. And if you speak something as your defense, they turn their criticism into mocking such as labelling you as snowflake, or they label you as you are taking things too personally so you are too sensitive and that is the only problem according to them. I also noticed that these people are actually hidden snowflakes, they are extremely mistaken, flawed and have serious lack of knowledge - that they learned to cover up by wearing narcissistic mask of superiority and narcissistic anger.
This is especially hard for people with Complex Trauma, where you were exposed originally to long term narcissistic abuse and blaming and criticizing in times when your brain was forming and now it is adult brain with injury - where you are as adult now hurt easily by negative comment, criticism and negative evaluation of anything about you or what you done. This can easily turn to social anxiety issue. It is because people naturally set their boundaries by nitpicking, criticism, having opinion and expressing what they dislike. So instead of Glasser communication tip such as negotiation, listening, gathering all data and then responding if necessary, you are instead in reactive state either by shutting up and self-censorship which stems from toxic shame and breeds low self worth issues and moral injury (witnessing unfair situation and not doing anything about it), or being in reactive state, where you are easily triggered by criticism into emotional dysregulation.
Another complex problem here is official medical community not recognizing complex trauma as concept, not recognizing toxic people as concept, and instead you get Classical CBT advice that you are the sole problem (which means more of irrational guilt and self-invalidation) because you feel panic and fear and anxiety due to random criticism and blaming. Instead of explaining anxiety and irrational guilt as normal reaction to abnormal people, abnormal situation and abnormal events. Classical CBT says that you must stay in toxic relationship as part of Exposure therapy, as if you will magically get used to toxic criticism with time - and instead if healing, you actually end up being people pleaser and codependent and pushover and fawning - as the result of Classical CBT instructions where your panic symptoms are being explained to be as the only problem.
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(29.4.2022)
"We devalue ourselves when we have emotions and reactions to things that don't line up with this idealized sets of expectations for ourselves." Yeah, This is often hidden behind the need to upgrade ourselves. We may have noble intention to be better, to learn more - which may be toxic if it is based on ignoring our values. For example, I may be diplomatic and value friendships - yet in toxic environment I will be explained that I am sissy and weak if I do not yell and scream at other people in order to appear macho and strong. So "upgrading" would mean that I become monster, or be willing to have mask of monster, as for example Jordan Peterson is instructing people. In shame culture countries there is honor and toxic masculinity that instructs people toward groupthink and herd mentality idea of what is definition of being a "man".
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Jordan Peterson is full of cognitive fallacies. Here he puts upside down concepts such as codependency and trauma into oversimplification. The result is toxic shame, anxiety and more neurosis, since he is scaring his public "it will happen your whole life" - so he is spreading cognitive distortions such as over-generalizing and negative prophecy of doom.
Just imagine the army of narcissists and people with lack of knowledge who decide to stand up for their illusions and lack of knowledge and equate it with Crusades. He is building up narcissism and Trump mentality of feeling of being entitled, he is spreading mental illness.
The truth is that "stand up for yourself" does not mean conflict, neither being antagonistic nor being monster. It is simply about being honest and authentic and speaking the truth. It is not about drama, it is not about being stuck in Karpman Drama Triangle where you exchange role of being victim or persecutor, it is not about explosions that this borderline narcissistic alcoholic is trying to spread.
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I learned toxic people are exploiting this part. They nitpick and criticize and or mock, put down our own mistakes, flaws, lack of knowledge. In this way, they break our boundaries - because they exploit our need to be fair, to be productive member of society and because we are kind and obeying citizens, we shut up and agree with their accusations, which are focused, directed and always with hidden agenda. This toxic people are emotional vampires and narcissists, Machiavellians, so their sole purpose is to learn how to exploit and take advantage of other people - by breaking their boundaries. So they will criticize us and we will get dysregulated. In state of confusion we are susceptible to hypnosis, orders and commands, we are vulnerable and toxic people parasite on this mechanism.
When we have difficulty in setting boundaries - that is the reason why. We are being beaten up with our own weapon of living in fair and just world. Since making mistakes is natural part of life - we are not aware that mistakes are ok - because they will highlight and focus on our perfectionism issues and need to be good person who follows the rules. They will monitor and sniff whenever we break the rules - simply by fawlty system.
Therefore, if there is a need to set boundary, I would focus on clarity and realizing that it is red flag - that there is toxic person on the other side. In healthy environment there is negotiation and cooperation, there is no exploitation and parasiting over other people, so there is no dangerous and unwelcome feelings. Also, if I need to set boundary - as I said - it will almost always be connected to my mistake, flaw or lack of knowledge - where I am unable to set boundary since I will be proved wrong to begin with. In this way, toxic people will lead me astray and use my need to have boundaries against myself. Toxic people are emotional vampires- they feed of other people's attention, even when it is negative one, that is what makes them toxic. So if I spend my time, energy and focus on having boundaries - I would try to open my eyes and realize I am actually inside Karpman Drama Triangle - and that I can opt out of it, instead of making and contemplating about setting up boundaries against relentless criticism and nagging and complaining from toxic people.
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Insults from toxic people are directed at our mistakes, flaws and or lack of knowledge. In this way, tyrannical people are exploiting our natural and healthy need to be productive and helpful human being against ourselves and they beat us down with our normal and healthy sense of shame and guilt. Since they direct their anger and aggression in areas where we done wrong - we are rendered without boundaries and defense. The truth is that mistakes are part of life, especially social situations. Mistakes make us learn and progress, without mistakes we would not know what is bad and what must not be done. Flaws can be external - operating something that is not fully operable - and in this way people who are attacking our flaws will cause us to feel toxic shame. Toxic shame is at the root of all mental illness and mental instabilities. Similarly if we do something for the first time - we will not have enough data to know how to do something without mistakes and flaws.
There is only one way to deal with toxic people - to speak the truth. Toxic shame will make us feel vulnerable and we will feel urge to cover it up. Instead, we can acknowledge the facts - we cannot know something if we are doing it rarely. No one knows everything and we all try our best. If someone is tyrannical - we have to voice out that elephant in the room. This way, we will bring focus on other person who is feeling superior and in Crusade mode - toxic narcissistic people feel they are entitled to treat other people like crap. We can voice that out. Narcissistic people feel that you are the one who is attacking them, for not performing your task without mistakes. So they live in fantasy crazy world where the world is revolving around them and people are nuisance and blockage. This is why Trump or Putin are mentally ill person and narcissists are creating chaos, wars and antagonism in this world. Narcissists feel impeccable and without mistake themselves - so the only way to deal with mentally ill people who are abusive is to be scientific and state facts, objective reality - and in this case it is about documenting their abuse and voicing it out.
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Same here. I learned the "fawning" concept thanks to Marshall, one year ago. And I've read countless self help books about social anxiety, people pleasing, being pushover, having fears and panic - and none of them explained codependency issues. They talk about fight flight trauma response, but none of them mentions fawning - and I never get explanation why I smile to people who accuse me of something I did not do. Why I have hard time to speak out and voice out my opinion.
Our trauma is set up for us to normalize abuse, and many resources out there are keeping the secret, there is no information available from official medical resources how to recognize red flags. Instead Classical CBT will instruct you to pathologize your panic symptoms and they will instruct you to expose yourself to toxic people as a way to "heal" yourself. Complex Trauma is still not being recognized by medical community. So no wonder we have no idea how to recognize toxic people and narcissism and how to take care of ourselves.
Thank God for You tube, and channels like this from Marshal and comments we have here, learning from each other.
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It is possible to have both GAD and OCD :( Where there is pull back push forward and you stay stuck. OCD means to accept worry thoughts, whereas GAD means actively stopping worries. And if you fight thoughts you will fight GAD, and in the same time you will nourish OCD. If you accept thoughts and shift focus, you starve OCD, yet GAD stays in the background as hovering hard-to-spot hypervigilance.
CBT cognitive restructure would make you tolerate toxic people and toxic environment, labelling narcissists as someone who has no influence over your emotions, while in the same time is it fact that long term exposure to narcissistic abuse causes brain injury. CBT will instruct you to interact and expose yourself - which means going along with abuse and mocking and responding and reacting to drama and you get sucked in into fantasy world of narcissist - because you have no boundaries to set - since CBT will explain that your panic symptoms and red flags are pathological and hallucination.
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However if my urge is to be attractive to others- this means I am making other people have control over me. I will depend on their acceptance and their validation so that they perceive and acknowledge me as attractive. This way, they control me - even though from my egocentric mindset I will think I am somehow magically in control by play pretending to be "strong" and saying "no".
I learned when there is lack of boundaries - only toxic people will exploit others and walk on others. Healthy and normal person would never parasite over someone who appears "weak". Only mentally ill person would do such thing. So the true problem is toxic person, someone who is narcissistic, someone who has criminal mind without empathy and sense of morality, ethics or knowledge about what is difference between good and bad.
If I am in dynamics where I measure what other person would do for me - this seems to me like borderline issue. If I let other person walk over me, this is trauma issue. In this case, setting boundaries without resolving trauma will lead to borderline, hysterical behaviour where I react to life. I will employ immature ego defense mechanisms to "protect" myself and I will see danger in the world, I will create anxiety and hypervigilance. If I need to set boundaries - this is red flag actually - that I am in the presence of toxic people on the other side. There is untreated mentally ill person on the other side who is taking too much, exploiting others and who crosses boundaries because this person is mentally ill. If I stay in contact with this narcissistic person, I am enabling this narcissist to continue their abuse.
The point of healing trauma is where I no longer react, where I am not walking on egg shelves, where I do not over-react. Instead I recognize red flags immediately and cut contact, warn and be honest and authentic - which toxic people hate and they are repelled by.
If I decide to express my integrity - I will become difficult person. People will not value me, they will be afraid of me. I will traumatize others by asserting all the time what I like or what I dislike. I will be burden by complaining and nagging and criticizing. Authentic does not mean that I bother other people. This is mistake that borderline people integrate in their hysteria. They perceive that assertiveness is way to control and manipulate other people. It is still manipulation and control of others. We cannot control other people. Cooperation means trust and negotiation with other people. Expecting other people to be on time always, that other people are not allowed to make mistakes, they other people are not allowed to have flaws - is fantasy, mentally unstable mentality and it leads to hysterical reactions, hypervigilance, anxiety and anger. This is why borderliners are so difficult to be with. Half baked narcissism is when you think you are the center of universe, but you think you can pay it off by trying to be kind sometimes when your agenda allows it. This is still toxic mentality and toxic behaviour.
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I learned that if you need to set boundaries, this is actually red flag. This means there is toxic person on the other side. So the problem is mentally untreated person who is toxic and who has criminal mind thinking they are entitled to cross other people boundaries.
So if I need to set boundaries - it means I am reacting to others. So I agree with message in this video with self love - that is boundary in itself. Where I know what I find valuable and that I am not going to tolerate abuse.
I trust if we give and give and we receive nothing in return - it will be most probably because there are parasites on the other side. Toxic people who sniff out kind, nice, healthy people and they exploit kindness, they perceive it as weakness. Parasites are always hard to discover - as in nature, and problem is not in our boundaries - it is problem that there are parasites. This is change in mindset - where we do not pathologize ourselves by defining ourselves as weak - instead we identify toxic people and cut contact with them. This puts us in much more powerful position than giving our brain indication what will brain interpret as toxic shame - being inept to manage and handle life problems.
So if I explain myself that I must put walls, due to complex psychological processes, this is actually hypnotizing myself into toxic shame - which leads to self worth being exported into other people - and paradoxically I will be without walls in the end. Jung said What you resist, persist.
Feeling of being doormat, people pleaser, fawning - this is all trauma response. This is sign we have grown up in toxic environment, relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria - where we were programmed like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals into abuse, and subservience, shutting up and self-censorship. As other kids growing up in normal households learned to express themselves and in this way they built natural walls that they are not even aware to have - we were taught not to have walls and instead of walls we were given narcissistic instructions to build false persona and fake walls, which are leaving us constantly exposed and vulnerable, without true walls. Self worth and self love is having natural wall.
Toxic people hate transparency, parasites hate someone who is not afraid voicing out the elephant in the room. So self-expression is natural repellent against toxic people - and we can self-express only if we love and validate ourselves, as said in this video.
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(1.5.2022)
"Sometimes people think they need to clean themselves up, that they have to fix themselves up nice and shiny before they can develop a relationship. They never taken the next step. There are doors they just won't open." Yep, this is what social anxiety makes ongoing, when you are stuck in chasing perfection - where social situations by default are full of blunders and embarrassing moments and mistakes, you cannot develop perfection that will thwart away criticism and negative evaluation.
2 years ago I realized this watching Polanski first movie that he made in Poland, called "Knife in the Water" (1962). Interestingly, the movie has a lot of hidden associations with Christianity, however he never admit it, even when he moved to America where he was free to speak about religion. In that movie I learned that I am making mistake of thinking that other people judge me and hate me, while in reality they, majority of them are having neutral emotions and intentions, and shockingly some of them are even interested in me - which is totally in opposition to social anxiety fears that other people automatically hate me, and that my job is to be perfect and without mistakes - and only then I will be confident enough to create relationship with others. So this is very deep message, it is directed in healing our mind warts and biases we hold on to due to negative programming.
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Yeah. For me personally, looking back I think social anxiety advice from Classical CBT lead me astray. I was explained through Classical CBT that I must expose myself - that in exposure my panic and trauma symptoms will vanish magically all by themselves - and that I must interpret any uncomfortable feelings of anxiety towards certain individuals who behave toxically as my over-reaction.
In this way I distrusted my instinct and I have ignored it. I convinced myself that panic fear shame symptoms I had when in presence of such people are my fault, and I have to stop over-reacting. I ended up with fawning and people pleasing issues, since toxic people saw my lack of boundaries (lack of reaction and saying no to unreasonable requests) as invitation to exploit me.
I have learned fawning and self worth concept thanks to Marshall - there is virtually no explanation in any self help book or any official medical advice for social anxiety about fawning, neither trauma nor self worth.
I learned over You tube that narcissists invent fantasy world and you cannot argue with them because they are always correct and they must be right, and they achieve this through lying and gaslighting, shifting goal posts and criticism over natural and normal mistakes we might make.
With Classical CBT you are instructed to always be assertive and to engage in contact with anyone - which is something that narcissist love - someone who is willing to stay with them and solve the puzzles and dilemma that they throw to solve.
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(2.5.2022)
Common mistake with official therapy is not recognizing toxic people. So what is said in this video - about identifying triggers is essential step. When we have triggers and flashbacks - this is Complex Trauma we are talking about. Social anxiety is part of trauma, we were exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when we were developing and we were exposed to adult hysteria when child brain internalized it as toxic shame.
The result is that we do not recognize toxic people on one hand, and we lump all people as dangerous on other extreme. This is called codependency - where we are controlled and easily triggered by other people, what they say, criticize, nitpick. Then we get messages from outside - where people label our fears and triggers as being "oversensitive" and "taking things too personally" - which is actually lie. If they were in the same spot, they would react in the same way. It is easy to dismiss someone's worries when you are not in their shoes. Now this invalidation is repetition of trauma that caused social anxiety in the first place - and as result we end up with double bind and moral injury = witnessing unfair situations where we say nothing, we do not react - as instructed to not be oversensitive and not taking things too personally. In this way we will become people pleasers and have fawning as default reaction to unfair situations in life which means more social anxiety.
The solution is self worth - accepting ourselves, our mistakes and our fears, DBT technique and humanistic psychology approach. Self validation and self expression is anti-dote to toxic shame - which is little man, homunculus stuck in our body that is distorting reality and explaining it to the prism of panic.
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My experience with Classical CBT advice that our conviction that all people hate me - actually lead to yet another extreme: where I end up not being able to recognize and detect toxic people. I conclude that unfair situations, corruption of other people, even obvious criminal behaviour such as stealing company's property - are explained as "over-reaction", being "too sensitive" and "taking things personally", and that there are actually not toxic people - where in fact there are only wounded people and we have to have empathy to all people, even those who are loud, obnoxious and aggressive. Although at some level this is true and it is noble to be saint in this world and have patience with everyone - in reality this leads to people pleasing issues, being pushover and taken advantage of.
The reality is that at certain level there are boundaries which signal when someone is too much and taking too much. So Classical CBT will explain to us that our reactions, fears, panic, anxiety are all nothing else but hallucination, something imagined, twist reality, distorted. Irony is that social anxiety is fear of criticism and classical CBT is using criticism to "heal" condition that is triggered by criticism. Very bad approach. This cannot end well.
Third wave of CBT called DBT tell us to validate our reactions and points of view - even when they are wrong and mistaken. Problem is when we invalidate our reactions, even when they are anxious - we are setting ourselves to toxic shame. We say to ourselves that we are inept because we overreact and we twist reality into seeing hostile and danger in anyone, and in this way we will destroy self worth, we will distrust our reactions and instinct and we will set ourselves to low self esteem. With negative attitude towards our natural reaction to abnormal situations (trauma) we will attract toxic people. And this means more social anxiety, additional panic and more fears - since without self worth we cannot operate in this narcissistic world where most people do not care about other people.
Pinpointing our mistakes, flaws and imperfections will not heal us. Instead it will create perfectionism issues. We will set ourselves for double bind - which can even lead to schizophrenia issues. This is state when we convince ourselves that we are too sensitive and we should shut up and not react - even in situations where it is totally normal to over-react.
Truth is that most people are imperfect themselves, and have distorted minds - all people have this issue. This can be verified by checking cognitive fallacies list and list of cognitive biases. People jump quickly to conclusions in order to solve problems, and this leads to cognitive bias and prejudices. All people do this. Plato talked about this phenomena 2000 years ago - Plato's cave where we believe shadows on the wall to be true.
When we are explained that we cannot trust our instinct and our biases, we are doing incredible psychological damage. The reason why we want to appear good and correct is actually to avoid criticism from other people - so the social anxiety is behind the urge and need to get rid of our illusions. It is not desire to be smarted or learn about life and spirituality, it is simply to avoid negative evaluation and criticism from other people. The reality is that whatever we do, no matter how correct we see reality - there will always be criticism, we cannot satisfy all people and we cannot control other people to like us and keep us safe. Instead what we can do is self validate ourselves, love ourselves with mistakes, flaws and biases. And then we will paradoxically be able to change our biases and illusions.
"The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am then I can change." Carl Rogers
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Many people have issues with rumination and they never pay attention it might be OCD since it is common knowledge that OCD means washing hands. Problem are social labels - and PureOCD targets rumination as part of OCD.
I had issues with worries and negative intrusive thoughts - and I was explained through self help books, official medical resources that this was panic and it can be handled through ABC model - where you are instructed to actively engage with your thoughts - trying to stop them and to modulate them. Totally wrong advice that produces even more panic. In 2015 I stumbled upon Mark Freeman channel and he also refuted PureOCD, however he explained it in his video that rumination is OCD even when there are no classical obsession part as washing hands. Then he explained how to deal with intrusive thoughts - and it helped me (ACT, ERP) - to accept thoughts and shift focus.
I would never learned about this if I did not hear about PureOCD. I would be stuck with Classical CBT methods to deal with social anxiety by not thinking about pink elephant.
Education here is the key. I would leave PureOCD to circulate, I use it extensively on my blogs and reddit posts. Many people who have issues with rumination receive wrong directions and totally unhealthy instructions how to deal with intrusive thoughts. PureOCD is like bridge to the right direction.
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Yeah, I see third wave of CBT called DBT as the right treatment for Social Anxiety. It is based on Humanistic psychology - where we are instructed to shift away from our focus on our panic symptoms and instead to focus on being active, on our dreams, on our values, what we like to do in life - no matter how funny, stupid or wrong it may seem to some critic (internal or external). If we are focused solely on our fears and panic symptoms - we will miss out the big picture - to be captains of our own life, that we manage problems and come up with solutions - even if wrong or mistaken.
With social anxiety we are stuck in a loop or worrying what will critics evaluate about anything we do - and this keeps us in prison of anxiety. With self worth inside us - we will be fine with mistakes, and wrong conclusions and our emotional dysregulation - we will not be toxically ashamed of it. If we try to stop our rumination - we will make it stronger. We have to let it be - it is our innate response to trauma and signal that we do not like something. Due to trauma this signal is over-reactive - but we can learn to live with it and keep moving on into direction what we desire and like in life - instead of giving up and watching life pass us by. Feel the fear and do it anyway. Be scared and do it anyway. Be mistaken and do it anyway.
When we do this, we will discover that the only true problem is external: critical, toxic people who nitpick - and we will make better choice - such as warn them and leave them if they do not stop. With social anxiety we tend to blame ourselves and stay stuck with toxic critical people - and we do nothing, we are immobilized.
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(3.5.2022)
Self-absorption paradox is by definition: "contradictory association whereby higher levels of self-awareness are simultaneously associated with higher levels of psychological distress and with psychological well-being. " Inner critic pinpoints our mistakes, flaws, lack of knowledge - the same way as toxic people exploit our weaknesses and criticize and mock our need and urge to be helpful to society and that we do our job done perfectly so no one is hurt by us. Mistakes are natural part of life. No one is perfect and we cannot know everything. Critics target these natural holes and unknown areas and they toxically ashame us that we are faulty as person for not being perfect.
So, perfectionism leads to mental imbalance. And it is a tool for Machiavellians and toxic people to control their targets: people who are kind, nice, someone who listen others, someone who is empathetic, who has natural consideration for how they impact other people around them - they exploit these natural human needs to be interdependent.
With social anxiety (complex trauma) I learned that other person is always correct, since my toxic shame told me I am inept to lead perfect life and make super strong decisions. In this way I would be exposed and attracted to toxic people who seen easy target to accuse for anything that is wrong to dump their irritations to. In the same time Classical CBT instructed me if I feel the pain and shame - that this is my social anxiety, and I have to ignore it. That I do not react to bully, since it is my social anxiety imagination. In this way I would stay in toxic relationships, I would convince myself that I am hallucinating abuse, that I am over-sensitive and that I simply take everything too personally. So I would experience what I later learned is moral injury: being exposed to unfair situations without ability to walk away, or to react or to say stop or I disagree. Instead I would shut up and silently agree with abusers, their accusations and unfair conclusions. This leads to double bind situations, where on one side I am told to be too sensitive and I must be strong, and on another side I would be with someone toxic who is pushing too far - yet I say nothing because I must be strong and endure it.
I learned self validation is anti-dote to toxic shame, and it leads to interesting new radical conclusions such as I am allowed to make mistakes and be mistaken.
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Bad Habit That Destroy Your Confidence: obsessing over minor flaws.
So we are explained by toxic people that our mistakes, flaws, lack of knowledge is proof we are inept. This leads to urge in being perfect, perfectionism. We are not aware, but this leads to toxic shame, low self confidence, we destroy our self worth by trying to gain worth.
So in this way people like Jordan Peterson will post on Twitter message to self improve, to search for your weak areas, that you must correct yourself, that you should be monster - well, these good intentions to upgrade yourself in the same time paradoxically create toxic shame and low confidence. We end up being afraid of life, afraid of people, depressed - and we have no idea why. This is why - toxic people who are nitpicking our mistakes, flaws, lack of knowledge - something that is natural. No one is perfect. Mistakes are natural part of life - mistakes are not proof that we are stupid, inept or unworthy to exist. Toxic people and Machiavellians are exploiting this need to upgrade ourselves, to be better and they exploit our need to do our job perfectly without doing harm to anyone, and in this way we can be easily controlled by irrational imposed guilt. Politicians and marketing are doing this, they brainwash us into guilt and urge to improve, as if we are unworthy and not valid as we are right now. This can hook us up to double bind - which can lead to schizophrenia (google "double bind and schizophrenia" ): situations where we are told to be humble and own our mistakes in order to show we are humans, yet if we take it too far, we will only see our flaws and believe we are inept to live life. This is called Self-absorption paradox: where more knowing about ourselves, more self awareness is actually leading to mental imbalance. Toxic people exploit this phenomena, they make us feel guilty for natural mistakes- and nitpick and highlight is as if we are inept for having mistakes. And we never become aware of this external factor who is influencing our guilt to control us - instead we are self-absorbed to become upgraded better version of ourselves.
The same way Classical CBT will instruct social anxious people to ignore their panic symptoms. They will instruct this is imagination, over-sensitivity and talking things too personally. Then socially anxious person will ignore valid feelings of not feeling comfortable around toxic person. This will lead to codependency issues, staying in toxic relationships, this will lead to double bind and mental instability, being pushover and people pleaser - since classical CBT will instruct you to be "strong" and "stoic", and that toxic people do not exist, it is all problem according to them - in our over-sensitivity and taking things too personally, being a snowflake. This is lie. There are toxic people out there who manipulate and provide false information on purpose just to exploit the target. Our healthy need to be helpful and to listen and to be cooperative will be exploited against ourselves. Our kindness will be mistaken as weakness. And we will believe we are problem, we are too needy and too reactive - not the toxic people whom we need to cut contact.
Solution to toxic shame is self validation and self acceptance. That we value our fears, flaws, mistakes and lack of knowledge - embrace our inner shadow. Jung dark shadow is not being monster and to be hysterical and aggressive and angry. Dark shadow are our mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge - we need to integrate it inside us to become whole. Yin yang dynamics that lead to health and balance.
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(4.5.2022)
Hijackals are convinced that they are doing good to others. They see shoulding and toxic shame like form of helping. In their narcissistic world they see it like free advice, good advice, the best advice in the world and they are totally inept to have empathy and realize how they words effect other people around them. They only see themselves as saviours, gods, higher form of creature, while others are stupid and unworthy - and they are propelled by narcissistic idea that they are educators and bringers of peace, by criticizing and nipicking and shaming others. Their egocentrism is so strong that they are unable to realize what happens when someone treats them the exact same way as they treat others: and they are unable to handle other people's criticism - it triggers their narcissistic injury and they explode and collapse when they receive the same treatment back that they are doing onto others.
From their fantasy world, they are convinced that others are wrong by default, that others are unworthy automatically and they feel good to criticize others, this gives them quick fix, similar to taking drugs. That is how they regulate their emotions, this is how they learned to handle emotional dysregulation. Such narcissistic people will attract and be attracted to healthy, good, nice, kind, calm, quiet individuals who seek agreement, interdependence, who are able to listen and have high empathy. This phenomena happens because nice and kind and healthy people are naturally prone to learn how to be better and to progress and to be better. Now enter hijackals who are nitpicking mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge. Now hijackals appear as exactly what they need and look for in life - guidance, someone who will provide them information what needs to be "upgraded". Problem is that hijackals are not helping at all. They are simply exploiting loopholes in the system of learning. They are exploiting loopholes in empaths where kind, nice and healthy individuals want to help others and to do their task without mistakes and without hurting anyone in the process. Hijackals are like parasites who attack the weakest smallest holes in the system and feed off it, since the host system is unable to detect what is wrong. To healthy, nice, kind person it is out of the question to reject opposing opinion - since they are naturally open to everyone, as any healthy non ego centric person is by default. So parasites are attacking healthy, strong host and feed off it. In narcissistic society, the definition of strong person is someone who is able to scream, yell, be hysterical, aggressive, who appears to be not loser but going forward, head banger. In reality, the strongest person is someone who is able to endure the abuse and unfair totally unbased punishments and unfair and wrong accusations. Hijackals are exploiting this narcissistic viewpoint of world and reality - that their target should be strong enough to endure unfair criticism, which is especially true in the case of toxic masculinity for men. In this way we get comical and shocking examples of how can an "alpha" male be controlled very easily: you tell them they wear certain shirt that looks sissy and feminine - and they will never wear it again. They can be easily influenced by their own tyranny of shoulds of what is toxic definition of masculinity.
I believe toxic shame and criticism and irrational guilt are behind pervasive mental disorders and mental imbalances such as Complex Trauma, Social anxiety. And when we realize that toxic shame is controlling our behaviour and actions, we may allow ourselves to put foot down and borrow certain small dosage of poison: narcissism and ego-centrism. Something that we denied ourselves because we know it is poison and it creates chaos: This may include cutting contact with someone without thinking about their emotions and how it will effect others whom we cut contact with. This may include thinking yourself as more valuable person, that in certain cases is superior than others, especially people who are bullies, abusers, narcissists. This may include to accept our mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge and make peace with our traits we cannot fix, remove or change easily or right away.
Hijackals with toxic shame exploit our need to learn more and to upgrade ourselves. Therefore, this is sign that our definition of learning and upgrading is twisted, incomplete and thwarted. Problem with toxic shame is that criticism, nitpicking, shaming - does not teach us anything. It has the opposite effect - it signals our brain that there is danger or something unacceptable - and brain flags this is important - and we end up in hypervigilance, amygdala hijacking state, we worry and try hard to understand something that we have no control over. This keeps us in the state of worry loops, PureOCD. And it is propelled by our need to be better person, that we do not hurt anyone and that we know how to handle and manage our life. It is good intention behind the upgrading idea, however, in reality - brain is not built that way. We are not meant to be gods. We have limits how much data we can store and when we are open to everyone and everything - we will attract parasites, manipulators too - who will exploit loopholes and anything where we do not have yet knowledge about how to handle and manage something. This is the reason why we need to give up on idea of just world and idea that we will not hurt someone, and idea that we are not allowed to make mistakes that may negatively effect someone in the process. It is impossible task and that is the core of toxic shame: that we distrust ourselves because there is so much to be critical about, we distrust our abilities because they are flawed, so we want to upgrade ourselves and to learn about life and people so we know better and do better. This need to be good person who cannot hurt other people is driving toxic shame and this will attract toxic people and parasites. I believe this need to be good perfect person is at the root of trauma, social anxiety, and any mental imbalance in Cluster C section (all anxious or fearful issues). In toxic environment where we grew up we learned that we must be good in order to be accepted and validated. So we developed external reference locus of control, we denied our self worth - and this is breeding ground for toxic shame - deep core belief that we are unworthy, unacceptable and wrong by default, automatically.
This realization is very huge and radical and paradoxical, and it enwraps our persona, personality, it will change our choices in life for the better - since this was stumbling block to our self esteem and we drove through life as with hand break on, stuttering and breaking down, moving with really slow throttle. This realization allows us to accept our fears and anxieties and stand by them- instead of being ashamed of them. This realization will break many contacts with certain people - since most probably they are parasitical. This realization will make us react when in the past we didn't react, and it will make us not react to things in the past we over-reacted. I believe toxic shame is used as method of control, tool to direct the target to be slave, immobile and movable only at command and instruction and direction of abuser - anyone who is mentally ill enough to parasite on other people. Toxic environment in the times when we grew up made us into passive, soft cushion to soften up the blows for hijackals. Our sole purpose in life would be that we are background character that is serving their masters, actors in the spotlight, while we feel shame if we enter into spotlight.
So we never truly grow up, we remained stuck in fears instead. Similar to the Robert Altman film 3 women from 1977 - where the main characters are like unhealthy id-ego-superego and by the end of movie they throw off beliefs and become functional adults who are handling and managing their lives instead of codependent relationships they had at the start of movie.
We can only be in driver's seat when we are ok with our mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge. When we make peace with these, we will repel parasites and toxic shame - and instead we will have self worth inside us, where it is naturally intended to be - instead of being exported into other people whom we seek for approval, validation and guidance and instructions. With self worth we seek validation, approval, guidance and instruction from inside us, our gathered knowledge, constructive feedback from others, peer review and common sense of what is acceptable in life. With toxic shame we make all kinds of rationalizations and we stay stuck in toxic environment with toxic people, we make all kinds of excuses why we should be small, shut up, self censor and believe other people's Ad hominem arguments as absolute truth.
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(6.5.2022)
IT does feel overwhelming, it is very difficult to overcome. After years of seeking solution, I realized that I am missing certain phrases what to say when in vague and dramatic and panic situations where I need to state my boundaries. This can be shockingly simple, For example: "I disagree with you". However I can state that with conviction only after I learned about cognitive bias and philosophical point that there is no absolute truth. With trauma, and codependency issues, I believed that I am inept and I must lean on other people to explain life to me, and guide and instruct me what to do, and that my mistakes are catastrophes which prove my incompetency. So I would take it personally if someone criticize, make unfair judgements, even false accusations, I would shut up. I learned that there are certain phrases I can speak when someone is pushy such as "I am not angry/yelling at you, so stop it." Instead I would believe that I am wrong by default, toxic shame internalized would not allow me to speak up what I dislike. I am still learning these phrases and words - that otherwise would make me shut up and self-censor as the only way to react to difficult people. It is only a few months ago that I learned that I can use Block option on twitter. I would not use it before since I was taught to be open, and to know how there are not toxic people really, there are wounded people and I must somehow take care of them by being with them in contact. I learned this is codependency issue, not as I was explained - my being good and nice, and trying to lead life by the book of unwritten rules how to be good person.
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Shouting, inability to handle cognitive dissonance, "If I don't assume my clients have unconscious motives I can't work with them" - these are all signs of borderline person. Very trick people, they act like narcissists but they are retained empathy as a goal or agenda behind it. Similar to altruistic narcissists.
This people also were the reason why anti-psychiatry movement started in 1960s. Also this group leader reminds me on reddit group "Social Anxiety" where they do not tolerate talking about social anxiety, you are instead encouraged to be hysterical. Perhaps the same group of people are behind it - borderline narcissists. I see the same thing as for Classical CBT - which is accepted therapy for social anxiety even though it's byproduct is people pleasing, fawning and more social anxiety, and it was based on shyness and research of shy people, not socially anxious ones.
Seems to me as in religion - that difficult people stop growth and block you from the truth. If you obfuscate and deter people from religion, they will never find spiritual meaning. The same as for Republicans who are blocking actually democracy and freedom even though they present themselves as opposite to communists. Or communism who are blocking worker's prosperity.
"When people are told they have psychological flaws without being given any sound evidence, they're left in overly vigilant state, second-guessing all of their responses." This is what is happening with social anxiety. Classical CBT focuses on panic symptoms - giving wrong direction - where socially anxious person with already present toxic shame will interpret this diagnosis as proof of ineptness and being unable to defend oneself from difficult and toxic people. Someone with hidden agenda will yell and scream at you, and you will end up interpreting their reaction as your problem you being too sensitive for not being able to be man or adult enough to not react to unfair treatment.
"We'll always find people suggesting we're flawed." Toxic, narcissistic people target other people's mistakes, flaws, lack of knowledge. They target weaknesses in others where you cannot defend yourself other than reacting, over-compensating or shutting up and obeying, letting them to control your decisions, actions because you are not perfect enough. And behind this abuse is discrimination. These toxic, narcissistic people see other people as unworthy, as less of human beings who deserve mistreatment - where the targets are focused on their own flaws and ways how to correct themselves in order to avoid abuser's attacks and punishments - instead of focusing on cutting contact with mentally ill person who is aggressive.
"At workplace those suggestions "we're flawed" can carry undeserved authority." Yes, this is how narcissistic, toxic people, hijackals, control their targets: by accusing them through mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge. Because you are put in position where you cannot refute the claims. And you are put in position where you must defend yourself, wasting time and energy on drama, instead of evidence. "There's no reason to entertain imaginary defects"
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(9.5.2022)
15:15 "So just to fix your mind as Persians say, get the Druj out of your head, get the destructive mindset out of your head, you turn it into a constructive mindset, Asha. Which is the only thing you do in Zoroastrian religion." "Get the Druj out of your head and move over to Asha. Not positive thinking, but going into a constructive mindset that is connected with reality. Exactly the same as you do with Dao in Daoism."
This is interesting from psychology point of view. Where intrusive thoughts, PureOCD technique describes the same thing: to shift focus from negative thoughts into task, jobs, common sense, your own values, something you need to to anyways that you would otherwise forget to do, since you would be stuck in worry and hypervigilance and intrusive worry. In official psychology this is called Behaviour Activation. Where you shift focus on activity, something that you know you like and what needs to be done. As oppose being stuck in catastrophizing and black thinking, depression and immobility, contemplation and rumination loop cycle. It is not positive thinking, neither it is stopping or fighting with negative thoughts - which would only make it stronger. It is the technique to shift focus.
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Narcissists put mask of superiority and appear as strong and powerful, which makes them magnet for codependents with inferiority complex, this leads to Stockholm Syndrome. The mask means being fake and thus they are highly sensitive to criticism and truth, since being transparent and voicing out the elephant in the room can remove their mask. Problem is when we believe these actors to be true and we invest our time, money, emotions in these fake people, only to be taken advantage of them, since they feed their fake mask by admiration through verbal abuse - which you may interpret as normal.
On another spectrum are traumatized ones, who built their personality on safety mechanisms. So being quiet is ashamed for being labelled as weird. With toxic shame you never build solid persona: meaning being authentic and true since you would be easily be ashamed for anything you do that suits you. This fear of being yourself attracts toxic people who feed and parasite on people who never develop their personality.
This means - that we need to be ourselves, that we are not afraid to show our true colors, no matter what narcissistic world may label as stupid, weird or unacceptable. This is what Cole talks about as passion and to strengthen what you like. Problem is that more intelligent people will like and have leanings on things that are not popular in narcissistic world and thus easily mocked, rejected and ashamed of. When we go along with herd mentality and group think, we give up on our personality. This causes people pleasing issues, being pushover and fawning. And we turn to people with fake mask that appear superior to us as our guides - we trauma bond with toxic people and we see toxic people as better and competent just because they are not afraid to speak up and express themselves - but it is all based on fake persona they act and present. With their fake mask they suck energy, time, attention, admiration, as parasites do.
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(11.5.2022)
Growing up with adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process it caused me social anxiety issues. When it started and later on I did not know this is Complex Trauma. The resources and books and therapy that I received about social anxiety was focused on what I know now is CBT from 1990s that I call Classical CBT - since there are upgraded versions since then.
Well, Classical CBT explained to me that I must focus on my symptoms of panic when I am around toxic people in order to heal social anxiety. They falsely explained that I am zoomed into my panic symptoms and that I must devote my attention to other people. In reality it is the opposite true - I am zoomed into other people - what they think, how they react and how they might hurt me through criticism, and I totally ignore my self value, self worth - instead I am trauma bonding with other people that is social anxiety in essence. Instead of this explanation, Classical CBT told me: That I am the sole problem because I react to toxic people. That there are no toxic people, it is all my imagination, my fears, my fantasy. And that I must expose myself, in order to get rid of shame, panic, embarrassment that I feel with social anxiety. So Classical CBT explains that my thinking is the problem and that I must regulate it through ABC model - that I have to change my reaction by explaining myself that it is not that big deal when someone is crossing boundaries and common sense and unwritten social rules.
What classical CBT does not understand is that there are external factor people who, as explained in this video, are covertly abusive and use techniques as double bind, evasion, gaslighting, invalidation, blame shifting. Classical CBT does not explain how it is being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when growing up by an alcoholic and toxic environment of toxic shame culture that messes up your walls and boundaries mechanism that I ought to realize I have to build, and thus you are left without walls as adult.
And furthermore, Classical CBT instructs you to not have walls, that you are the problem for being too sensitive and taking it too personally when you seek solution to social anxiety issues, which are in reality part of Complex Trauma. What I am saying in my case self help books and official medical explanations for social anxiety participated in covert abuse, they left me with people pleasing issues, fawning and being pushover - since I would interpret covert abuse, other people taking advantage and being unfair to me - as it was mere my imagination, as it was my own fault for being too sensitive to notice it and that I am problem for having to care about it that is wrong and unfair and unjust and toxic. That with Classical CBT advice and instructions, each time I end up blaming myself for being mocked, ashamed by toxic, narcissistic people - as it was my fault because I feel hurt by their unfair treatment. That my thinking is the problem, not gaslighting from external factor. Classical CBT totally ignores external factor: cover abuse, and that bugs me, since Classical CBT is still recognized by official medical system as only nad official therapy for social anxiety. As I understand third wave of CBT called DBT and humanistic psychology are talking about self-validation as anti-dote to toxic shame and social anxiety disorder and it is correct approach, as oppose to obfuscated Classical CBT.
True, that is what I am talking about: "They invalidate your reality. They do in form as if they care about you. They say “I didn't say that, you must heard it wrong”. Then they combine that lie with false mirage of caring “Why would I do that on purpose”. Faking concern and twisting reality causes us tremendous trauma. We have inner GPS, gaslighting hacks our inner GPS. "
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Yeah, they nitpick on our honest mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge. Flaws even doesn't have to be our own, we are automatically guilty for someone or something outside of us that is not working properly. And it hurt us to be mistaken and flawed because we try to be good citizens, that we do not cause harm to other people, so we want our task to be done perfectly - and they hone on this like wasp on juice. They parasite on our healthy part that wants to contribute to society and to do job on the mark, without mistakes. And we are like put in washing machine to spin as ordered, we are running in circle like hamster, we are stuck in loop of people pleasing hysterical criticizing people who package their hysteria and criticism as "advice" and "well meaning" instruction. Horrible part is when you are not aware you are in this loop circle, you are hypnotized into believing you must prove your worth by being perfect, good and without mistakes. I was stuck with people pleasing and fawning and being pushover - since I would not realize that there are so mean and evil people who are doing these sick mind games on purpose: double binding, gaslighting, evasion, shifting blame, invalidation.
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People pleasing is not choice. It is not something you can change at the press of button. Being evil, being monster will not help you become strong - neither man. You will be drama queen. You will be opposite from man: you will be hysterical, short fuse clown that no one takes seriously. Furthermore, by building up fake persona, superiority complex - it is based on inferiority complex. This leads to narcissistic disorder, it is mental illness. Putin is the best example of this "Stop acting too nice" advice and instruction. It is road to mental imbalance.
Assertive - just imagine how annoying are people who are constantly and relentlessly speaking up what they think all the time! You do not want someone around you who is nagging and complaining all the time, so again, he is instructing people to be narcissistic. He is teaching public to develop mental illness.
Being agreeable is part of being diplomatic. Without cooperation you will end up being parasite: someone who is sucking up energy, information and warmth by other people through gaslighting, mind games - he is instructing people to become narcissists, to be afraid to show you are wrong, vulnerable and admit your mistakes.
Instead of JP, there are normal psychologist: Dan Ariely Robert Greene Adam Grant
"learn to relax, less conscientious, learn to agree if you disagree" You don't have to learn nothing, instead you accept yourself as you are and build up on it. If you pathologize yourself, this will lead to toxic shame, core belief you are abnormal and that you must be perfectionist in order to be accepted and loved. This is sign he has narcissistic mentality and he is sick in head. He is spreading toxic shame and mental illness, stop listening to him. Herd mentality and groupthink propel this person into god figure.
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I learned that I need to recognize that cognitive distortions are stemming from toxic shame, whereas toxic shame came from external factor: untreated mentally ill person who used covert abuse mechanisms such as gaslighting, double bind, invalidation, blame shifting, evasion mind games - and now there is homunculus inside, like a virus that is distorting thoughts into cognitive distortions. This way I understand that I do not have to pathologize myself, as instructed by Classical CBT. That somehow I am responsible for taking care or distribution of cognitive distortions. If I believe that catastrophizing is my invention that somehow magically I invented, I will end up with toxic shame, deep core belief that I am inept to manage and lead life, since magically I end up with catastrophizing thoughts.
Whereas when I understand that emotional abuse and being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse such as relentless criticism 24/7 - this gives me courage, strength and hope, instruction and guidance to heal myself by choosing and detecting better and healthier environment, people and habits. Toxic people are the cause of our mental issues, these cognitive distortions are not our invention. We were invalidated and criticized as kids and now as adults we are left with safety mechanisms we learned as kids to survive brutal toxic shame, overt and covert abuse, and toxic people around us.
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"CBT isn't for everyone" Unfortunately, Classical CBT is the only therapy suggested for social anxiety by official medical resources (self help books, therapy and online resources).
This caused me a lot of distress, since I followed Classical CBT advice since 1997 - ABC model, focusing on my panic symptoms, and thus I was pathologizing my emotions and sensitivity as wrong, and I was exposing myself to toxic environment and toxic people hoping that I will magically somehow gain immunity - instead what happened - I ended up with severe people pleasing issues, fawning response and being pushover.
Only after learning about Complex Trauma last year I realized that what Classical CBT describes as panic is emotional dysregulation.
As I see Classical CBT has the same effect as gaslighting, double bind and blame shifting in narcissistic relationship - the target is always wrong by default and there is vague social rule of what is considered normal that I must achieve in order to gain acceptance, validation and approval.
If we reject our fears and panic, which actually means our dislike - it is an act of giving up on our self worth and our identity - and this sets us up for toxic shame and external reference locus of control, inferiority complex - where I believe I am inept to manage and lead life (toxic shame), and I need to depend on crutches to survive (trauma bonding and codependency).
Classical CBT is totally wrong approach for social anxiety issues.
I see third wave of CBT called DBT and ACT as correct treatment. If we have issues with cognitive distortions, it is sign we were abused and thus programmed into distortions. Distortions has not fall out of heaven on its own. There was someone mentally ill in our close vicinity, we were in toxic environment.
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Yeah, this what you described is called "emotional regulation" in Complex Trauma. Check out Polyvagal Theory chart - google images. There this is called "social engagement".
Being aware that we get dysregulated was beneficial for me - since I did not know what is happening. Classical CBT explained to me that there is no reason to get in panic mode, that it is my fantasy and my imagination. So - instead of looking at red flags of toxic people, narcissistic abuse (blame shifting, double bind, gaslighting) - I pathologiized my symptoms as wrong, and as a proof I am inept to manage my life. While in reality I was abused and external factor was causing emotional dysregulation. This awareness that there is external factor was beneficial for me - since I knew I have some control - such as cutting contact or alarming the person to stop nagging and unfair treatment. So this is "good" awareness - it sets you up on correct path and explains to you what is really going on.
With Classical CBT - I was only aware of my panic response, and I would ended up with fawning, people pleasing methods to deal with abusive people. So this was "bad" awareness - Classical CBT sets you up to feel toxic shame, deep core belief I am inept, coward for feeling fears and panic when in presence of hysterical people, and that it is all my fault. When we pathologize our natural reactions, we actually snuff out our self worth, our identity, and our natural responses how to deal and manage unknown, vague and difficult situations. This is why I dislike Classical CBT - it is wrong approach. Humanistic psychology tells us that we accept and love ourselves as we are with flaws and mistakes, and with time upgrade ourselves, when we learn how to recognize problem. For example, learn about toxic people, how narcissistic people think - in order to recognize and retort to them. Classical CBT is focusing only on ourselves, on our panic symptoms and it tells us that we are wrong and we must become philosophical zombies, faceless people without emotions, without mistakes, without preferences.
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(12.5.2022)
" I continually fight for their love, acceptance, validation and approval, still"
That is good point you are making here. It is very complex. Because I read a lot of self help books and one message that was pretty strong to receive was to be gentle towards ourselves and to understand toxic people around us, and have compassion for them, too. Now what I did not know before was external reference locus of control aka trauma bonding. This was not explained in all self help books I read. This was the puzzle that I was missing. So with trauma bonding - I would be in paradoxical situation - where on one side I would receive and process information that I understand people and myself and to forgive them - while on the other side you had toxic people who are giving their own instructions and guidance that is toxic: such as I must be "strong", that I must fight with people, that I must enter into conflict to prove my worth by drama and explosions. And with external reference locus of control I would take their words as true and believe them - and this caused me a lot of pain. Because I would feel ashamed for either not reacting to unfair treatment or feel guilty and ashamed for reacting. It is double bind. So I see external factor - toxic people masked as critics, that give wrong, toxic instructions - which with external reference and trauma bonding turns them into orders and commands. I did not know that this is trauma bonding and that I am allowed to doubt messages from toxic people, and that I am allowed to cut contact or reject messages - that I am allowed to do this.
Without information about external reference and trauma bond, I would validate and accept other people - including their harmful, unfair and double bind, conflicting words as definition of myself and my decisions and perceptions would be based on their opinion. And I had no idea that I could allow myself to trust my own opinion instead. This never occurred to me - because I would invalidate my own fears, panic, shame as a proof that I am inept to manage my own life, that I could not trust myself with mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge. That's what Marshall is talking about, and yeah, I see self-validation as correct GPS that we never learned in early age, when we were developing our mechanism how to manage and guide our adult lives. Instead we were being instructed to get instructions from other people and depend on others, especially if they are loud, obnoxious and aggressive - we were programmed to believe that toxic traits would be a proof of their own competency.
I see this pattern repeating on global scale - for example in Russia or Hungary or UK where most people vote and support politicians and leaders who are clearly narcissistic. As if someone who is hysterical is a sign of being better and more competent than ourselves - and we ought to distrust ourselves and follow these maniacs with fake masks of perfectionism and masks of competency.
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The scary part about the matrix is that the fact is this what Lisa is talking about right here in this video about worrying what other people think about you - you cannot find this information in places where you are suppose to learn this data - if we'd live in normal and healthy society: at home, on TV, in media, in self-help books, at therapy. Instead Classical CBT will instruct you to believe your symptoms are your own fault, and that you have to magically remove them by being hyperaware of them, without looking at the cause and program beneath it and what mechanism is supporting our fears and anxieties and constant state of hypervigilance. Well - this instruction from Classical CBT to blame ourselves and pathologize our emotions is perpetuating toxic shame and irrational guilt and this destroys self-worth - and thus keeps us codependent - because we will distrust our own instinct and reactions as abnormal - and in the same time we will believe other people are normal and we have to listen to others and seek their approval and validation how to feel, act and make decisions.
What Lisa is talking instead are facts of life that we have been banned to see, it is like we had veil over our eyes all our lives, that covered up the truth - that there is a transparent black veil in front of our eyes which is censoring information about what is really going on. I see only with third wave of CBT called DBT and ACT that this message is coming through - self validation and self acceptance and shifting focus rather than fighting it or pathologizing oneself as suggested by mainstream resources.
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Being too nice is not choice. It is trauma stuck inside the body. It is not something you can switch off at the press of the button. Beneath people pleasing is toxic shame. And if you attack someone for being nice - as by trying to change them - you are in fact adding up to toxic shame. You are adding up to trauma, belief that all people are hysterical and nervous and judgmental. As if you must achieve being perfect in order to be accepted and validated. This approach only makes things worse. Toxic shame is deep, internalized belief you are inept and incompetent to manage life and make decisions.
Can you just stop and imagine what kind of abuse there had to be in order for someone to be so afraid to speak up own opinion and express dislike? Can you just imagine what kind of abuse there had to be for adult person being scared what other people think about them? Inability to you put yourself in someone else's shoes is egocentrism, it is child mentality, childish mechanism of operating in the world.
Carl Rogers said that we can change only after we accept ourselves. Nitpicking, criticizing will not help someone who was abused with nitpicking and criticizing in young agr when person was suppose to build up persona and personality. Shaming someone into change will not help.
"Expect others to treat you right" People pleasers are avoiding potential punishment and criticism, the ultimate goal here is avoiding someone's hysteria, aggression and physical attack - as it was in complex trauma childhood, it is not expectation to be treated with respect by what appears as fawning to them. Fawning is stress response, it is automatic, similar to fight or run away when in presence of danger. It is automatic, it is part of normal reaction to abnormal people, abnormal events and abnormal situations.
Instead of pathologizing natural reaction such as fawning, I would rather shift focus - look at Zoroastrians and their religion motto to speak the truth, yet in the same time to watch out for own words, actions and deeds to be correct and kind ones. Most people hate truth, and speaking the truth is the most radical thing to do - without wars, without explosions, without drama and without shaming. Simply stating the facts, being objective and being transparent. That is it. There is no need to nitpick, highlight, and shame or mock someone's trauma learned mechanisms such as fawning.
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(13.5.2022)
"what if we r not intelligent or smart enough to be successful in life" Then you need to redefine the definition of success. And also you need to realize concept called "External reference locus of control" where herd mentality, or groupthink is forcing you to believe what is success. The world is full of paradoxes, biases, double binding which means there is no absolute truth unless unkind or violent - there is no generally accepted truth.
If you allow other people to define truth for you - you will lose your self worth, you will lose your identity and you will develop toxic shame and mental instability - since society will give you contradictory messages how to manage, handle and make decisions in life. Remember the donkey story - where other citizens condemn and criticize man and woman riding the donkey. Whatever they do with the donkey: ride on it, walk by it, carry it - there will always be criticism and mocking and dissatisfaction coming from other people.
Being kind and treating people with respect even when they do not deserve it, does not take much IQ, and that is successful in itself.
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"Confidence now is seen so bad online that it's called narcisism" Identifying toxic people is not easy. The similar mechanism we find with viruses in the nature. Viruses upgrade themselves and camouflage themselves to appear neutral or inviting. That is their task, sole purpose in life. Yet, narcissists are easy to discover once you can discern unkind and violent people over someone who appears subjectively to you as unkind for being confident.
"By the time you'll win even 1 race,you'll feel good" Now the critical question here is why do you feel good? Is is because you get approval, recognition and validation from external reference locus of control: other people? That is narcissism. Or is is because you feel good for yourself, for achieving the task you enjoy overcoming for yourself, even when nobody is looking and noticing? That is intrinsic locus of control, that is healthy.
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True self is when you are not reacting to events, people and situations. True self is when you react because this is natural reaction to you, without cause and effect that is associated with other people, their criticism, potential or real punishment, that you are not making decisions and taking actions in order to evade their aggression. That is true self.
When you try to protect yourself, you are reacting, that is defense mechanism, safety mechanism.
With trauma, a lot of kids who grew up in narcissistic toxic environment - instead of learning and developing their true self, inner worth and persona, personality - they developed safety mechanisms and defense protections which they carry into adulthood which seem as persona now. For example being people pleaser, pushover and fawning or having social anxiety. Fears, anxiety and hypervigilance, perfectionism and trauma response (defense mechanisms) are all now enmeshed with your true persona. Which may be being kind, diplomatic and empathetic.
The key would be that you regulate emotional dysregulation that is broadcasting safety mechanisms in order to live life without fears, anxiety and hypervigilance - and instead to live your life as your true self, without fears.
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"We don't want to do someone what we would hate someone to do to us. We spare others the feelings we are struggling with and fail to hold others accountable. You struggle with wondering how that person is going to feel because you can so easily put yourself in that person's place. And you were struggling how you would feel if you were fired. Or you were excluded from the group" Oh yeah, that made me into people pleasing, being pushover, taken advantage. I resolved this with fawning and I ended up being scared of other people's emotions - because I did not want them to feel social anxiety, trauma and pain of being excluded, punished, criticized as I was. That left me, render me useless and passive, and immobile. Where being immobile is mental instability - it leads to mental illness. Being stuck. Stuck in rumination and guilt and shame.
"Question am I struggling with holding people accountable because I can very easily imagine what it might feel like to be that person who's being eliminated from the group. So we would over empathize, project our wound onto this person." Yes! That urge and wish to spare people's feelings cost me taking up their abuse, unfair treatment, false accusations, unfair criticism over my mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge - without any response and advocacy from my side. Then I end up feeling ashamed just for being in situation where I am being treated unfairly - and I say nothing. Even when I know my defense. And I have no idea why when this is happening because my amygdala and panic symptoms are being activated and I try to fix this panic symptoms, as instructed from Classical CBT to handle social anxiety. Which only leaves me with additional anxiety, since now I have toxic shame - belief that I am inept to handle life because I shut up and I feel physical panic symptoms when someone is unfair and aggressive. Just to figure this out that this is happening because I want to spare their feelings so that they do not feel the same panic and pain as I do - is difficult and hard to discover. It is only after I learned about Complex Trauma last year that I am slowly discovering methods and steps to respond to people in order to hold people accountable when they go overboard. Such as: "I completely disagree with you". & End of argument after this statement. or "You are being hysterical. Stop it" or "I am doing this for the first time, I can't do it perfectly right now" I would never come up with this short, direct responses - I would instead blame myself for feeling ashamed and scared because of other people's unreasonable and hysterical behaviour, that locked me into social anxiety and fawning and codependency. I was convinced that if I defend myself in correct manner - that other person would destroy me, that I would end up in street homeless and broke - and this fear kept me being subservient and nice to others.
"A lot of people who are that inconsiderate, they aren't so put off by being held accountable. They know it's coming. They never say yes, it was me. They'll say boss never liked me." So true.
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I was misinformed by self help books, that these panic symptoms are resolved through Classical CBT - so I followed their instructions to "work on my panic symptoms" - which actually leads to pathologizing yourself and you end up with toxic shame, deep core belief that you are weird, inept as oppose to strong and aggressive and constantly assertive society.
And even though I read Elain Aron's book "HSP" right at the start when I noticed that I "overreact" to life - I did not believe her words that I can choose my own definitions of truth and trust myself. I lacked the knowledge about External reference locus of control - which means that I interpret my panic symptoms as sign of inferiority - and that as a cure I must follow and listen to aggressive people to explain me how to manage and lead life. This ended up with me being people pleaser, being pushover and fawning - and no one explained me this is happening because I distrust my feelings and emotions.
When we pathologize our reactions (panic symptoms, anxiety, feeling irritated, uncomfortable) - and when we try to fight with it with the goal to be superior and to wear a mask of strong person (as society and Classical CBT instructs us) - we are actually developing toxic shame, we give up on our identity and our own self worth - we forfeit our persona and abandon our personality. Instead of this natural and healthy process - we try to appear strong in order to manage and handle life's problems. Problem is that being fake will create more problems. Ignoring our discomfort will make us susceptible to toxic people - since we will miss red flags. And abandoning our panic symptoms as something dangerous and disgusting - we are actually silently becoming codependent, enmeshed with other people. It is paradox. By trying to be confident - we will never be confident, we will be the exact opposite: we will overcompensate and that will leave us being very hypersensitive to criticism and opinion and criticism from other people - that they can crack our mask. This is narcissism. While on the other hand, if we paradoxically accept our flaws, mistakes, lack of knowledge, our panic symptoms - and shift focus away on action and task to be done - we will be confident - by being non-confident.
So I learned the hard way and it took me a lot of time to realize when I pathologize my sensitivity as wrong, weak or something unacceptable - I will without being aware of it - allow other people to control me. I will depend on other people to approve my life. To me it will seem like I am in control for pretending and trying to appear cool and without fears - but in reality I will watch out and be very sensitive about what other people say about me, I will be controlled by their criticism and nagging and complaints. That is extremely unhealthy and it leads to mental issues such as people pleasing and social anxiety.
Whereas if I accept myself, my emotions and fears as alarm system, and nothing to destroy or hide or be ashamed about - I will trust myself, and having intrinsic locus of control is healthy. That sets us up to make better and healthier decisions in vague, unknown, difficult and-or mysterious situations.
Hating our sensitivity and ignoring it - will leave us being cripple, immobile and stuck - and other people will need to take care of us. In this state, we will most likely attract very and extremely toxic people. I wish someone told me and explain this to me earlier in my life.
Elaine Aron was keep telling this message in her book over, and over again, it just did not get to me until decades later: "Being sensitive to the discomfort, disapproval, or anger of others probably made you quick to follow every rule as perfectly as possible, afraid to make a mistake. Being so good all the time, however, meant ignoring many of your normal human feelings-irritation, Elaine Aron "HSP""
"We have to ignore all the messages from the warriors that we are not as good as they are. The warriors have their bold style, which has its value. But we, too, have our style and our own important contribution to make. The Highly Sensitive Person, Elaine N. Aron"
"They see us as timid, shy, weak, or unsociable. Fearing these labels, we try to be like others. But that leads to our becoming overaroused and distressed. Then that gets us labeled neurotic or crazy, first by others then by ourselves. The Highly Sensitive Person, Elaine N. Aron"
"Sooner or later everyone encounters stressful life experiences, but HSPs react more to such stimulation. If you see this reaction as part of some basic flaw, you intensify the stress already present in any life crisis. This deeper processing of subtle details causes you to consider the past or future more. You "just know" how things got to be the way they are or how they are going to turn out. It can be wrong, but your intuition is right often enough that HSPs tend to be visionaries, more conscientious, cautious and wise people. It is important not to confuse arousal with fear. And often we think that our arousal is due to fear. We do not realize that our heart may be pounding from the sheer effort of processing extra stimulation. I really suggest trying to view it as neutral. HSPs must spend far more time trying to invent solutions to human problems just because they are more sensitive to hunger, cold, insecurity, exhaustion, and illness. Since most non-HSPs do not seem to enjoy thinking about such things, they assume we must be unhappy doing all that pondering. Spend enough time putting yourself out there in the world - your sensitivity is not something to be feared. Carl Jung believed that when highly sensitive patients has experienced a trauma, they had been unusually affected and so developed a neurosis. Preferring toughness, the culture sees our trait as something difficult to live with, something to be cured. HSPs differ mainly in their sensitive processing of subtle stimuli. This is your most basic quality." The Highly Sensitive Person, Elaine N. Aron
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"do you sometimes still experience some sort of anxiety in social situations?"
This is good question. IT shows how social anxiety is complex. Social anxiety is multifold entity. The most common side we all see is social confidence or lack of it. However social anxiety is also hidden part chunk of ice beneath the ice. Trauma and feeling shame when we ought not to feel neither shame or guilt at all. Social anxiety prolongs itself into codependency - and to make it even more complex - there are plethora of people who handle social anxiety with fight response and they develop narcissism.
Social anxiety is molded and melted into our persona and personality - looking up not to hurt someone and to appear our best when in public. This means we cannot destroy social anxiety - it is connected with our empathy and ability to connect with other people by being considering to them, other people.
This means - we will never get rid of social anxiety. And urge to remove and destroy it is our urge to feel superior - which is not being humble. Not being civilized and not being human we become narcissistic, psychopath and machine, NPC Wojak - philosophical zombie without caprices, perks nor quirks. Jung said we will become complete and whole when we accept our dark parts - which are not aggression. It is being boring, being stupid, appearing mistaken, accepting our flaws - and not trying manically to remove them.
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PureOCD - ACT and ERP. Shift your focus. Do not try to resolve these thoughts. If you look ways how to stop them, as you do in this question - you are trying to resolve them. That is part of problem - you are going along with their lure. That is obsession. I have the same issue with hysterical and rude people - I try to resolve and control it with my thoughts and shame and guilt, seeking how to resolve it. That makes it worse, it solves nor resolves anything. The key is to get unstuck - to move on to another task, goal, something that needs to be done. In my case this is complex, since doing any task is related to potential critical, hysterical people. In your case you will have it easier, since shifting your focus on some task will not involve the prime obsession (sex and violence).
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(16.5.2022)
"usually people don't care what you are doing" Problem is what happens when they do, when they are aggressive, rude and unfair? How to handle criticism, this is not explained in video, and this is the core of social anxiety: Trauma from narcissistic abuse.
"not everybody meant to be your best friend" Problem is a situation when you depend on difficult person due to service, money, help, resource - and this person is triggering you into panic - and you have to be around this person, ask this person for data, help, service - and they want only their way and they humiliate you.
"replacing thoughts with worthiness" This one is paradox. If you signal your brain that your negative thoughts must be replaced - you are telling and instructing your brain not to trust yourself, that you are inept - and toxic shame thwarts this instruction into fear and panic and distrust. Instead of this Classical CBT advice, the better approach is paradoxical, third wave of CBT: accepting and acknowledging the negative.
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I created reddit topic few months ago that Everyone feels social anxiety - and the topic got banned and deleted - because moderators comprehend my words as if it is magical "cure" (?!).
A lot of negative comments claimed that super confident people do not have anxiety. I responded that social anxiety and social anxiety disorder are two different things.
If you go to job interview, or if you are humiliated for example on public radio like that nurse from Australia - who was tricked by radio DJs to reveal the sex of Royal baby - you will feel humiliated and scared, this is social anxiety. There are situations where anyone will be triggered to the breaking point in social situations, it just depends what is your weak point and when it will be triggered.
My point was that all people feel some level of anxiety - it is just that people who appear super confident: a) either learned how to deal and manage social anxiety early in the childhood without abuse trauma, so now they are "professionals" in social settings or b) another portion of people who appear super confident are people who actually wear narcissistic mask - they are actors and play pretend to be super confident, while in reality they are overcompensating
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"compliment people" That leads to people pleasing, fawning and being pushover. Toxic people who caused social anxiety in the first place will sniff out kind, nice, open, friendly and scared people - and they will use double bind gaslighting to parasite over healthy people who are truly friendly and nice.
Surprisingly, instead of fawning as stress reaction to Complex trauma which is true cause of social anxiety, paradoxical solution is to cut contact and avoid toxic people and learn how to identify toxic people and toxic habits and remove them from your life. With social anxiety, we will attract toxic people, narcissists are on the other side of spectrum, they will feel attracted as magnet to nice people, they see meal in healthy people, like energy vampires. With social anxiety and need to make friendships - this urge not to be alone will be exploited and taken advantage by psychopaths and sociopaths.
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In Dark Ages, priority was Bible and religion. Result: The world digressed for 2000 years.
I believe this happens due to this paradox: "The self-absorption paradox describes the contradictory association whereby higher levels of self-awareness are simultaneously associated with higher levels of psychological distress and with psychological well-being. Wikipedia"
And I personally believe this is the proof that God exists. We are in laboratory, this life is test, a training centre. You cannot avoid mistakes, flaws, difficulties, deviances, toxic habits that appear helpful and satisfactory - you cannot hide from it. We are put to test how we will react when we build our house on sand - will we attack others? Will we attack ourselves? Will we be hysterical? Will we be prone to violence to others and or ourselves? The test is mentioned both in Islam and Bible, and it is at the root of Zoroastrianism which was base religion for Islam, Christianity and Judaism, where Zoroastrianism is based on Indian religion - which tells us basically that we are avatars on this planet - game players in simulation.
Exodus 20:20 "Moses said to the people, God has come to test you" Quran 2:155 "We will test you in fear, hunger, loss of wealth, life and fruit"
And then there is this concept: "the word apocatastasis is typically used to refer to the belief that everyone – including the damned in hell and the devil – will ultimately be saved." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocatastasis
This apocatastasis means that serial killers, Crusaders, Stalin, Putin - are mentally ill and they cannot be responsible for their crimes. Afterlife - they will wake up from coma and realize what they've done. They will no longer be influenced by their trauma, triggers, hormone imbalance, brain injuries that caused them to commit crime.
Also this means we got to wake up now while we are alive and learn what is important in life - to be good as we will be in afterlife. Our true selves, the face behind the mask, avatar. Self worth being inside us - intrinsic locus of control.
The Universe is an intelligence test. TIMOTHY LEARY ---
(18.5.2022)
Example of double bind is Classical CBT for Social anxiety. Where you are explained that you must expose - to toxic people and they do not explain that toxic people are sick. Instead of diminished social anxiety, you end up with people pleasing issues due to double bind from toxic people. And if you describe this to Classical CBT mentors, they use double bind to expel your experience. Classical CBT is currently accepted as default therapy for Social anxiety in mainstream accepted official medical circles.
Third wave of CBT called DBT is focused on self validation and self acceptance and on Humanistic psychology where you are explained that you do matter, your opinion is valid and you have power to make decisions, instead of passively waiting for approval of others how to manage your life. Classical CBT indirectly instructs you to toxic shame, belief that you are inept since you have fears and panic in social situations - so you are wrong by default, while all other people are healthy and good and you must listen and be compliant to everyone and force yourself to stay with abusers in order to get immunity. Which is a lie, since all people do have biases and prejudices, it is human condition, since we have limited scope of input - we are not gods. Classical CBT explains that all other people are gods, while anyone with social anxiety is inferior and socially anxious opinions, actions, decisions do not matter.
One example of this is main forum for social anxiety at reddit. My posts were not tolerated and I went through witch hunt, and double binds conversations with certain individuals there - and I got banned. Then - I simply created my own social anxiety forum on reddit. With fawning, people pleasing I would stay in passive position, trying to shut up and keep silent and do nothing. As I know better - I decided to take matters into my own hands and established my own thread. That is analogy similar to the video's last message. "When we take a step back, we begin to find lots of solutions."
I would add that long term exposure to double binds, as I read, could lead to schizophrenia issues. Also, Long term narcissistic abuse can cause brain injury - google this sentence.
And lastly, we can learn that how we treat other people is important. When someone is annoying, when someone appears aggressive to us, unreasonable, difficult - if we react to them with fight response, no matter how tempted we might feel to react with anger - we might do damage, the same one as narcissists are doing to their targets. In their imaginary world, we are the ones who are difficult just for existing and being who we are, being authentic. Ad hominem are arguments that are best to ignore - personal remarks. These are easy to lure into fights and endless arguments which you cannot resolve. I see being objective, stating the facts, voicing out the elephant in the room as intelligent response to anything in life. And cutting contact when it is possible, the best solution for narcissism.
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This is very good question in point. What happens when we are in situation where there is: Abuse. Verbal abuse. Narcissistic abuse. Double binds and gaslighting.
Toxic people - which you whom may not cut contact so easily so you are forced to soak up bombarding of negativity, hysteria and paranoia. Family, finances, shelter, lack of choices, dependence on service and help from people who are toxic. In this case, we ought to have tremendous energy to not succumb to toxic shame (ingrained belief we are wrong by default) through people around us being aggressive: their constant accusations, relentless nitpicking, neverending criticizing of our natural mistakes, external or internal flaws and natural lack of knowledge due to not enough accumulated experience..and being mocked for it.
I see awareness of what is really going on as the first step. With kind nature, with being healthy and open to people - we might miss red flags and make rationalizations about toxic people and toxic habits and stick with them since we are instructed by narcissistic society to trust everyone.
Children who grew up with double bind, narcissistic abuse, gaslighting and relentless criticism - are having issue called learned helplessness. Where your mind and body are conditioned to care what someone rude think - since as kid you were forced to comply, obey or face brutal punishment. Now as adult, our body will release hormones and chemicals of stress anxiety and we will feel guilt - our body will get us addicted to codependency and being passive and thus we will care what other people think.
The point of psychology is that we become fully grown adult person who is active and who can manage difficult and unknown situations - which may include being entrepreneur, take risks and being independent with intrinsic locus of control as GPS, instead of program learned through Complex Trauma: people pleasing, fawning and being pushover, being passive and immobile and depend on others to tell us how to manage our own life.
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"If I think you are upset at me and I don't know why, I will built it up to crazy place in my head. Can we talk about it?"
This is where it gets tricky and complex. IF you deal with narcissist on the other side - and if there is atmosphere of unresolved paranoia and hysteria, the high chances are that there is narcissist present on the other side - you will try to respond and react to their drama. This will get us trapped inside Karpman Drama Triangle. So you will honestly and normally try to speak and clear things out, be transparent and objective. This is death threat to narcissists, who are living in imaginary fantasy world full of paranoia that their false mask of superiority may be exposed to daylight and truth. So what happens next is that this person will deny, deflect, minimize and rationalize your assumptions - they will gaslight you into being too sensitive and taking things too personally - and you will end up with toxic shame (deep core belief you are weird, stupid, unacceptable and wrong by default). Or they will accuse you of something unfair, your mistakes, flaws, lack of knowledge and you will be initiated into double bind dynamics - which is extremely dangerous for the target, since in long term you may end up with schizophrenia (google double bind). So we may deal with external element that is toxic and any sincere and honest and adult, reasonable interaction with it leads to lose-lose outcome.
Or let's explore ourselves and see inward what is going on. I see so many advice online that we ought to be assertive, speak our minds - but what happens when you are very intelligent and everything bugs you since your brain has huge ability to notice everything that is wrong in the world. Also, What is you are HSP and see enormous flaws and pain in the world. If you decide to investigate and analyze whatever upsets you - you will become toxic person - someone who is annoying, someone who is criticizing all the time, someone who reacts to details and unimportant events, words and situations. Or if you went through complex trauma and now you have triggers to critical people. Now everything will trigger you - since criticism is part of life. If you decide to bother people about what triggers and upset you - you will become extremely difficult person to live with. And unfair too - because you will impose impossible, unrealistic standards of perfection and too much expectations of people who may have lower IQ or trauma of their own physically and psychologically preventing them to realize and be better persons.
I see solution to this dilemma that we gather information first, try to collect all facts available, so that we do not overreact to anything every time. Also, we may choose to investigate issues - and express conflict in "acceptable" manner, without making it drama and hysteria - and we can do this by showing our own vulnerabilities, being honest and objective. Trying to resolve any issue - even though from our own egocentric viewpoint looks like being fair, kind and with good intentions, in reality - due to complex psychological dynamics, people will actually interpret this act of trying to solve problems as aggression and threat to their own persona. If we present ourselves as perfect, we will become toxic without realizing it. And as I said, there might be toxic person on the other side - who is wearing narcissistic mask so they appear kind, nice and charming to us - so we may people please them and obey them in order not to harm them with our sincere words. This is what makes it complex and tricky.
I would not dismiss our natural instinct in this whole mess of social communication and interaction. IF we feel there is something wrong, hunch, premonition - there are high chances that there is something wrong.
And as person stated in this video - it will drive us nuts if we think about it and analyze it and try to solve it inside our head - because we do not know what is really going on. The chances are if we confront someone with anything - that person will lie. They will not speak the truth for whatever reason. They may be toxic and have hidden agenda, or the opposite: they may try not to hurt your feelings and keep truth hidden from you for as they will perceive it as for your own benefit.
We are simply left to make mistakes, to be wrong and to be imperfect. And to try and experiment techniques and choices and decisions - which will probably be wrong and catastrophe. There is no other way. We have to allow ourselves to be human, with mistakes, mistaken and wrong. Let go of urge to not make mistakes.
Problem is narcissistic society that does not allow mistakes. And narcissistic mentality that shames mistakes and flaws and lack of knowledge - where there is no other way to functionally operate in this world without them.
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(19.5.2022)
In reality, saying no and negotiate with toxic people, narcissistic people means these toxic people will feel resentful and they will retaliate toward their target - since the world must obey these people and world turns around them. They can't hear no. In fact, growing up in that kind of toxic environment made us codependent in the first place: being pushover, and being afraid of punishment when you express your true opinion and true feelings about something that may entail word no or negotiation rather than automatic yes to other person's demands.
This means, saying no and negotiate lifestyle and mentality in reality means cutting contact, being fired from your job, leaving comfort zone, being unemployed - possible being homeless if you have no shelter.
Another byproduct of growing up in toxic environment that we will feel irrational guilt even when we do the correct things in life.
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I discovered that beneath all these beliefs that you are not enough, sparing people's feelings, own feeling being ignored, being burden to others, hiding your struggles, undeserving, not trusting your decision - all stem from narcissist who is paranoid. Their paranoia is transferred onto targets. Narcissists believe they are being attacked from others. This is important to know since this is the underline motor, underground chunk of ice that we cannot see on the surface, it is hypnosis - and once you know it, you can know how to handle it.
For internalized toxic shame this means that you know all this entity inside is programmed us to be zombies who are blindly following programmed orders to protect our "masters" (someone who is rude, annoying, aggressive) from perceived danger. That is the driving force for anxiety and panic.
For external factor - when someone is rude to us, this narcissist is powered by paranoia. Once you know this, you can focus on the real issue - in creative manner - by words, actions to break their paranoia. Investigate them who is attacking them and expose their weaknesses and wounds that they protect by wearing false mask. This means, whatever they are criticizing you about - this is their own issue that they try to hide and that they perceive being attacked. They will use double bind to protect their wounds - and double bind if you react to their accusations instead of dealing with true issue of paranoia - will distort our own thinking. Double bind and narcissistic abuse long term exposure can create brain injury. Double bind can lead to schizophrenia, these manipulations and abuse is not harmless joke or mocking as they present it when you call them out. Narcissists create serious physical and psychological damage.
The best example on global scale is Putin. In his paranoia he sees nazi threat, he is paranoid - so he is willing to kill other people for his paranoia. While in reality, he is nazi himself, he is simply projecting his true evil onto his targets. This is what narcissist do. They are mentally ill people, aggressive and dangerous and they mentally hurt their victims - if you are not aware of what is going on.
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(20.5.2022)
Jordan Peterson is prone to oversimplifications, biases, quick judgement based on fantasy- This is very dangerous, since you build up yourself an illusion and you believe in hallucinations, not reality.
2:03 "incorporate your anger to say no when you need to say no" Horrible advice. When you feel anger - you do not think clearly. You are triggered when angry - your cortex brain is not working. What happens is that you over-react. And if you allow your anger - you will not get message across. Instead you will make more problems - since the other person will use your anger as a way to prove they are correct while you are unreasonable person guided by anger and hysteria.
4:07 "if person irritates you about what they done, you decide to say the truth. Don't assume you are right. You get to say I am irritated about this situation, I have to figure out if you have problem or I have problem" "Tell truth about your emotional state" He is over-complicating. Making something more complex than it is. Truth is - if you find yourself being irritated - high chances are that there is toxic person on the other side. This means - if you speak the truth - this person will use narcissistic methods to deflect the truth: gaslighting, double bind, blame shifting. So if you ruminate and try to solve puzzles - you will get caught in Karpman Drama Triangle where you are in position of victim. For people like Jordan Peterson - people who think they can reason anything - it is a sign of narcissism. That you want to control other people through manipulation. It is codependency from narcissistic perspective - where you depend on other person to feel validated and appreciated for having your way all the time. Entitlement. Jordan Peterson and people who admire him are narcissistic and abuser in Karpman Drama Triangle, abuser in codependent relationships.
Jordan Peterson and his followers have to realize that they are evil inside and that is the cause of all alcohol, drug, relationship problems they have.
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What I learned is that if we feel irritated, that there is high chance that we are in contact with toxic person. It is not so innocent as it seems to us, because due to Confirmation bias we will believe other people are like us, we will egocentrically judge words from our perspective. While in the reality, there are really toxic, negative, evil people out there capable of tremendous manipulations that we would never come up with it even if we wrote a fiction novel, they are too devious.
So I would not pathologize our reactions and blame ourselves whenever we feel irritated and annoyed and contracted, agitated and unease. I would rather observe it either neutral or as a very sensitive alarm system that is able to detect fake people. The secret is that we learn how fake are they. Are they fake to the point they are psychopaths, or are they mildly narcissistic - as borderliners, wounded people who decided to solve their trauma by being jerk to other people.
From my experience, I tried to be calm and not to over-react, I am aware that if I react to annoying people, events and situations will turn me into toxic person, someone who is annoying and irritating just because I am aware of toxic environment, where I mirror the toxicity through feeling scared, panicked and annoyed - so I tried to be calm and peaceful and agreeable - however - I ended up with being people pleaser, being pushover and I developed serious fawning response to anything I come across. I ended up being shoved around like a feather, mocked and abused - and my default reaction to false accusations was smiling back and shutting up, self censorship. I would not allow myself to block, run away, avoid - since Classical CBT would instruct me to expose myself to social situations - which is totally wrong advice from totally wrong therapy to social anxiety. I ended up without my own voice, my own opinion, I would totally depend on other people to tell me what to do in life, I ended up being codependent and without self worth, I ended up with toxic shame - deep ingrained belief I am inept to lead my life and I must depend on other people to explain me how to feel, what to do - which leads to double bind situations and I was easy target to toxic people. Similar to Johnny Depp court case developing at this moment (May 2022).
I learned that alarming the other person is better way. Voicing out the elephant in the room. And cutting contact is also ok response. Avoiding, too. I was taught by Classical CBT that avoidance was wrong and this gave me tons of toxic shame issues, since I was in toxic environment. You cannot fix other people, we cannot control other people - so exposing to toxic environment will not give us magical immunity, instead it will destroy our mental stability.
So I learned as Elaine Aron said in her book "HSP" - that I trust myself, that I accept my intuition and feelings and emotions - instead of listening to narcissistic world explaining me how to be social, how to be with peace with everyone. Sometimes it is better not to be social. In certain situations, peace is not better option since it would lead to narcissistic enabling. As I understand third wave of CBT is talking about self acceptance and self validation. With being HSP, there are chances we are carrying trauma from childhood and this self love is anti dote to trauma.
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Short and sweet - little things hurt us, and also small things make us happy. If we start to analyze our sensitivity - we will make it too complex. This leads to self absorption paradox where we don't see wood for a tree and soon enough we will start to pathologize ourselves - since we think we can be cured from being HSP. That somehow magically we can be like other "normal" people.
With pathologizing ourselves we are in fact creating damage, additional anxiety and unnecessary pain and we impose toxic shame on ourselves. Other people who try to "help" us also add up to toxic shame, and we end up with hypervigilance and in constant state of fear, panic and anxiety - just for being aware that small things make us unease.
I would rather shift this viewpoint and see sensitivity as delicate mechanism which we may choose to accept fully , instead of ashaming it. Instead of trying to destroy it - which would lead to self abuse, toxic shame and if we do that - we will end up with external reference locus of control: where other people will control us. We will end up being codependent and in constant state of social anxiety, this means: other people's comment will have impact on our thoughts, actions and decisions. Other people will lead our life, since we will have deep toxic shame belief that we are incapable of leading and managing our own life. This mentality of self hate will attract toxic people into our life. Narcissists and emotional vampires, aggressive mentally ill people sniff out this desperate need for external approval and validation - and we will end up with trauma bonding issues, Stockholm syndrome - where we believe other people are gods, while we are inferior beings.
Self validation and self acceptance are anti-dote to inferiority complex, toxic shame and trauma bonding.
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"It's just helpful to start to track your own patterns so to be aware of what was the emotional state"
Yet: From the DK THE PSYCHOLOGY BOOK: "Watzlawick famously stated he could not think of a single case in which someone changed as a result of a deepening understanding of self. He was drawn to the idea of circular causality of human behaviour, which shows people tend to return to the same actions again and again. Insight, Watzlawick suggested may even cause blindness, both to the real problem and its potential solution. He supported the brief therapy approach, which targets and tackles specific problems more directly in order to achieve quicker results. But he also felt that for any therapy to succeed, it must offer the patient a supportive relationship."
And: The self-absorption paradox describes the contradictory association whereby higher levels of self-awareness are simultaneously associated with higher levels of psychological distress and with psychological well-being. Wikipedia
With: Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values. Wikipedia
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If another person cross boundary - then this person is a psychopath. Very toxic person, narcissist. If you have a need to establish boundaries with such unreasonable person who is mentally incapacitated to realize that they are not the center of universe - this means we will be stuck in Karpman Drama Triangle, where we will have a role of victim who needs rescuer to tell them how to handle and manage an abuser. That is Karpman Drama Triangle dynamics here. It is codependency issue.
"Train people to understand what your boundaries are. What is acceptable." I would rather make this lifestyle: being honest, genuine, voicing out the elephant in the room, still being kind, without explosions, without drama. Self worth rather than external reference locus of control.
"Other people when they know your boundary they will run to boundary and they will stop" What happens when they do not stop? When they go to Crusade and vengeance attacks and retaliation mode as response to your No? And you end up without job, homeless and without shelter nor finances. What then?
"it's going to frustrate people, they will earn enormous amount of respect for you" Not in my case. I stand up for myself, I voiced out my boundary - and in response - I got re-transferred to another job and fired very soon. I am without job for 2 years now. No respect. No job. Perhaps this tip will work in wealthy normal country where you can find another job and where your paycheck will assure your shelter and expenses, but this does not work in shame culture countries nor in toxic environment. There are pretty sick and demented narcissistic people out there in position of deciding your faith and control. That is reality: If we set up boundary we have to be realistic and know it may as well end up with losing your job, losing security and comfort zone.
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"When you are in your own frame, and when you are least attached to outcome, you are the most attractive." But think about it more - this means you are still making other people to control you. You depend to be attractive to them. This is external reference locus of control issue. Better option is intrinsic locus of control, that you accept yourself and love yourself as you are, not because you really want to be attractive to others. IF you want to be attractive to others, you still try to manipulate and have neediness issues.
"That's your stuff, not mine" I realized that toxic people create environment where they put the responsibility on you. They nitpick our natural mistakes and ashame them and demand perfection. You cannot beat that, mistake is there, you really made mistake - they will demand entitlement treatment based on your mistake. They criticize flaws, inner or external ones and make catastrophe out of them and hysteria. They will approve and validate their rage, anger, unfair treatment based on real flaws - something you cannot control or change. This way they control you. and thirdly. They attack our lack of knowledge. So again - your hands are tight down. Predators and manipulators in this way control us - they make us feel toxic shame - deep ingrained belief we are bad and evil because we made mistake, due to flaws and lack of information - and thus they will argue that we are causing them grief and they are entitled to special treatment as a way to pay off our imposed guilt. That is toxic - and as normal healthy friendly people we try to fix ourselves as instructed by these toxic people. We end up pathologizing ourselves and we end up being zombies, controlled by other people comments, their criticism and accusations. I learned by spending a lot of time on learning - that toxic people are paranoid. They are mentally ill but they cover it up by exploiting our desire to have normal healthy relationships with other people. We try to fix what is broken - and toxic people will invent that something is broken and blame ourselves for breaking it and that it is our responsibility to fix it.
This happens in psychology with Classical CBT and social anxiety. Classical CBT is accepted as default therapy for social anxiety and avoidance by official medical resources and community. So classical CBT will criticize and pathologize your sensitivity and ability to sense trauma, hurt and abuse - and they will explain your symptoms are panic and you are problem. And the way to solve this perceived problem by exposure - exposing yourself to toxic people. In the end you end up being food for narcissistic people and manipulators and psychopaths, abusers. You end up being people pleaser, being pushover and fawn to them as automatic response to their relentless criticism and accusations and blame and guilt tripping.
I see solution in knowing what is really going on - that toxic people use irrational guilt to control us. And our weapon is being authentic being honest, voicing out the elephant in the room - since the truth is enemy to narcissists, toxic people hate transparency, facts and when someone is objective. This is because truth will expose their manipulation and lies. We can be honest without explosions and drama. Secret is only that we realize that there are Machiavellians out there who are causing Karpman Drama Triangle dynamics.
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If you need to set boundaries - this is actually alarm that there is toxic people on the other side. Then, if you try to modulate it, and reason with it - you end up being in Karpman Drama Triangle, starting with the role of victim, where you get advice from Rescuer. This dynamics is codependency- and codependency also include "helpful tips" and following good "advice".
The reality is if you feel pressure due to boundaries being pushed - it is the only way this will end is with quitting that job. Problem is when you live in shame culture country or in poor part of world where you cannot find another job that easily. So instead of complex guidance and instructions which will be lost anyways due to psychological concept known as Ebbinghaus Forgetting Curve - I would keep it nice and simple. This means what to do when you cannot force your boundaries? That question is never covered by mentors. Instead, we are instructed that we live in constant state of hypervigilance and regard the world as dangerous place. We are not explained to make mentality shift - for example that if we have external reference locus of control where we want to make a lot of money by being in toxic workplace only to impress other people around us. Then this urge to impress others is true problem that keeps us stuck in toxic environment. Once we work on our trauma issues, it will reflect on chunk of ice that is above the water - such as seeking issue for "setting healthy boundaries at work"
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"Emotional blackmail is when someone else makes you responsible for their feelings. And if you don't do what they want, they use obligation, guilt and fear to pressure you doing it."
This is codependency. Where on one spectrum is taker and on another spectrum is giver. The giver is enslaved through needs being perceiving power over certain resources, which are hijacked by the taker: shelter, resources, help, finances. Emotional blackmailers also use our natural clinging to friendship and doing good work and desire not to hurt anyone in the process. They do it by nitpicking our mistakes, blaming our flaws internal or external (outside of our control), and or lack of knowledge. As explained in the video - narcissistic toxic person is depended on the actions of someone who is industrious and willing to fix and do things, someone who is willing to be active. What happens instead is that such person becomes immobile with fears and anxiety since abuse is tool for abuse and control. This dependency over other people criticism, words, orders and instruction is external reference locus of control. It is trauma bonding, Stockholm Syndrome.
Inner kingdom is having intrinsic locus of control.
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(23.5.2022)
"hand shaking, heart beating, palms clamming" Other than physical symptoms - there are mental anguish too. IT is interesting that he did mention imaginary public ("they think I am loser"), but totally missed to realize that social anxiety also includes these: catastrophizing, black and white thinking, toxic shame, irrational guilt. This is indication that either he did not explore social anxiety or he has mere shyness with an accent. Imaginary public is part of growing up - this is not endemic condition for social anxiety only. Pathologizing our emotions, feelings and thoughts - even when these are "wrong", mistaken or flawed will create toxic shame. Public speaking fear is not social anxiety - this is performance anxiety.
"The cure" for social anxiety is not becoming socially confident. Confidence is paradox. If you try to appear confident - you will overcompensate your inferiority complex with superiority complex. This is path to narcissism - which Putin taught us can lead to severe mental illness, being criminal and mass murderer. Since your imaginary fantasy world will be filled up with fears which you will have no issue to express through aggression - since you worked yourself up to be "super confident".
Step one Shower yourself with self love. Self love is anti-dote to toxic shame. However the tricky part is that toxic shame is external event imposed onto internal world. This means, there are toxic people out there who imposed trauma onto us, programmed with internalized irrational guilt. All this means you cannot heal in the same toxic, negative, narcissistic, ashaming environment that got you sick. Affirmations will not work because toxic, ashaming, psychopaths and narcissists and Machiavellians will pinpoint and criticize your natural mistakes as catastrophe, they will nitpick your or external flaws related to you as unacceptable and ashaming, and they will mock your lack of knowledge as proof for toxic shame. Mistakes are natural part of life - yet they will create aura of perfectionism, whereas perfectionism is mental illness. They will influence our irrational guilt and shame inside - because we are normal, kind, healthy and friendly with empathy and care how we show up in the world without doing damage to anyone. Well, toxic people will explain that we do damage by our mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge. And this way they destroy people, unfair, unjust and uncalled criticism is their tool of destruction. And we will accept it as true since we try to be good and nice and do our job well without hurting anyone. So they will parasite over our healthy urge to help all people and to be considerate and civil. They are practically tearing off our arm and beat us with our own arm. So - toxic people will in this way destroy your "step 1".
Let's examine Step 2. Uncomfortable challenges. This Classical CBT invention also does not work. The brain will interpret any definition of danger as super danger. And toxic shame already present inside us due to Complex Trauma experience will interpret uncomfortable as proof we are weird, abnormal, unacceptable - whereas all other people are superior, comfortable, normal, confident - and we are not match to all people - and this is proof that we are inept, stupid and abnormal. Just as with step 1 - toxic people will again nitpick your mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge in whatever you do, whatever action you take. The ERP is therefore making sense from PureOCD viewpoint: that we accept ourselves as we are. And that we realize all people experience fears - they just hide it well. All people are bizarre, they are simply better actors in hiding it, or they are stupid and not aware that they are bizarre, so they feel no apprehension. ERP makes sense that you take action in accordance to your authentic self, to your task, goals - not as a Crusader war against imaginary fear entity. And if you have not guessed it until now - anxiety and fear which is mysterious and unknown actually stems from psychopaths, sociopaths, narcissist and aggressive mentally ill people who never sought treatment for their severe condition. Having social anxiety means having complex trauma. And complex trauma is a sign we were in a close vicinity of mentally ill person, being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when child brain was developing and in early times of trying to build persona. Similar to shaking and hitting child's body where the child body is developing - it will cause permanent body injury since it is in the gentle stage of development, there is no crust to sustain the pressure. So instead of deliberate scare and horror of making a list to expose - it is about changing your mentality and realize that first you become authentic and true - and then you decide yourself what actions you want to take - without external reference locus of control - where you would react to external stimuli and then decide where to go. Intrinsic locus of control is healthy and it is anti-dote to toxic shame, following your inner GPS - not to go through life by reacting to toxic people and making your decision about what other people will tell you where to go through their criticism and then reacting to that criticism - in spite of it.
Step 3. "It takes effort to go outside your comfort zone" Wrong again. This is called emotional regulation. And you cannot change yourself at the press of a button. As I said, once you are "outside your comfort zone" you will again meet parasites, toxic people and Machiavellians who will use double bind and gaslighting, honeymoon phase and thus control your decisions, thoughts and actions through their criticism of your natural mistakes, inner of external flaws and lack of knowledge to trigger your irrational guilt - and hypnotizing you into being zombie to their needs and hidden agenda.
This three step process is for shyness, not social anxiety. Wrong advice, even with good intentions can have detrimental result - since people who try to implement this will not get the results and then they will feel even more toxic shame, embarrassment, depression and catastrophe.
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For my own social anxiety it helped to seek the past. With it I discovered that social anxiety is part of Complex trauma. Being exposed to unfair relentless criticism 24/7 when growing up and being exposed to adult hysteria when child brain was unable to reject it as nonsense and mental illness that comes from external - instead I would internalize toxic shame that I am wrong to the core and it is all my fault and responsibility to fix other people and that I am the cause of all emotional issues that people have. Similar to a baby being shaken and physically attacked - baby's body is not strong enough to sustain the abuse as adult body would - in the same way mental persona that is developing in our young age is not strong enough to sustain the abuse from toxic mentally ill people - other than creating brain injury - which social anxiety is a part of. When I see social anxiety as injury that was caused by external event, from external source, I can realize that it is not my fault neither proof that I am abnormal, weird or unacceptable if I feel uncomfortable with people who resemble through words or actions to the original trauma that injured me (someone yelling, being vulgar, being critical, nitpicking, attacking, hysterical).
As oppose to Classical CBT advice and instruction and definitions, suddenly everything about social anxiety made sense. Whereas Classical CBT would explain that my symptoms are proof of my lacking and something wrong with me. With Complex Trauma I learned that there is nothing wrong with me, I experienced trauma that caused injury and I am experiencing injury - it is not that I am deeply wrong to the core (toxic shame).
Classical CBT will explain that I must be happy and confident at the press of button. Which makes me feel toxic shame when I meet unfair, unjust criticism from toxic people who nitpick over my natural mistakes, inner or external flaws and lack of knowledge - so I cannot retort and defend myself - only to feel shame and guilt for having mistakes, flaws and no data. With Complex Trauma I learned that this is called Emotional Dysregulation - and it is normal to feel anxiety and fear and it is not up to me to control it, only to accept it and shift my focus on task, goal I need to to without resentment and rumination - trying to solve and clean myself from accusations.
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Being exposed to long term Narcissistic abuse that caused social anxiety (complex trauma) means that you can change your perception only if you heal the abuse: and that is through self love, self validation, self acceptance. This is terra incognita to us and we have no clue what love is. We see it in novels, media, papers, other people talk about it - but since we never received it in its true form when we needed to feel it - during growing up - this part of self love will be very challenging to us, and whenever we reach it - it will change our thinking and perception.
The first change will be realization that we gathered toxic people around us, as being traumatized means we were instructed to toxic shame and attracting toxic people - who sustain self hatred and toxic shame inside us - since this is what we were programmed to think from early on. Also we will shed off toxic habits that we carried along us, as safety mechanism to survive the neglect and criticism and psychopaths.
Once we realize that we are totally normal and that our social anxiety is simply alarm system, not our personality trait - we will accept and validate ourselves - and this is an act of love. Until now we were guided by toxic shame and we made our decisions based on toxic shame - what other people might approve, external reference locus of control.
With self love we can have inner GPS, trust our own opinions and decisions and this is called intrinsic locus of control. With toxic shame we believe other people are superior and we must believe other people's words, instructions, labels, definitions and ultimate and absolute truth. That is social anxiety - since people will always criticize and find faults and always nitpick and demand perfectionism and unrealistic expectations. With toxic shame and trauma we were programmed to be Genie in the lamp where we must fulfill other people's wishes and neglect our own. The anti-dote to this self sabotage is self-love and validation of our own natural reactions to abuse and toxic people, where instead of self-censorship we will express our needs. With toxic shame our needs were narrowed down to nothing and it depended on approval of other people. With self love we will realize that we have needs and we have right to express them instead of seeking other people to approve our needs or anything we want to dislike or reject. Self worth is self love, and that is how we change our perception.
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Yes, but be Sherlock Holmes. Why there is core problem with self confidence and esteem. Babies are not born depressed, kids are not born with anxiety.
There is a virus of hate and mental illness that toxic people spread. They abuse others, especially kids and this is how you get issues with self confidence and esteem. Therefore, the true problem is not self confidence nor esteem - true problem are toxic people who destroy these. So - our task is to learn to recognize virus and learn how to protect and fight the virus.
Think of it like this: If you believe that your gangrene foot is the problem and that the only solution is to saw it off - you will never be scientist and seek the cure or protection or healing - and you will destroy parts of yourself that you label as sick and unacceptable - where the true problem is external: parasites and viruses that attack our healthy body.
When you realize that social anxiety is not your problem, but only reaction to toxic people - you will also realize that instead of pathologizing your own body, your own mind, your own emotions and your own reactions to abuse - you can actually do something to prevent the abuse from happening (by cutting contact with toxic people) or by retorting to the abuse - by speaking up the truth, being objective when they hurt you and accuse you through criticism. When we shut up and when we blame our panic symptoms as the only and sole problem - we will experience moral injury - this means witnessing the evil and doing nothing about it. That is social anxiety. We witness unfair treatment (criticism and nitpicking and blaming) - and we do nothing about it because we think we are the problem, that our panic reaction is the problem, that we are somehow have to be chirpy and happy and nice and kind when someone is abusive. And then we feel toxic shame when we cannot feel happy and nice and chirpy when someone is nitpicking our natural mistakes, our inner or external flaws and our lack of knowledge.
When we learn about psychology and philosophy, when we educate ourselves, we can realize and discover that there is no absolute truth. Unless unkind or violent - anything goes. This means, the desire to be perfect is mental illness, it is an act of being unkind towards ourselves. With abuse we believe we must shut up and fawn when someone mocks our mistakes or attack us for our flaws and lack of data. With education - we can learn that we are allowed to be imperfect, flawed and not being aware does not grant any permission for someone to be tyrannical, abusive nor aggressive towards ourselves. With social anxiety, due to abuse (being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when growing up and forming our persona) we internalized the belief that we are wrong and that we must shut up to anyone who is loud, obnoxious, rude and that their anger makes them just and correct. And then we end up with social anxiety - where we snuff out our sense of injustice and we ignore signals that we are in the presence of toxic person.
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Great tips - Making social anxiety map which is manifold entity so that we can know our way in the labyrinth, education (although this is double sword due to self absorption paradox which leads to distress), doubting our beliefs so that we can start to think (Descartes), shift focus onto our task that otherwise we would forget with rumination and trying to solve the unsolvable issues, accept imperfectionism, removing toxic habits which we use as safety mechanism and expressing our opinion and taking actions what we want and need in life.
I learned that social anxiety is stemming from toxic people. It is not our invention, it is not our symptoms that are problem, symptoms appear as the only problem since they are extremally uncomfortable. So instead of looking for the reason why we feel panic and anxiety - we are trying to fix ourselves and inadvertently we are signaling our brain that we are inept, weird, abnormal, bizarre, unacceptable and invalidated - whereas other people apparently have no social fears - so therefore other people must be superior and better and competent. This leads to toxic shame issues and external reference locus of control which ends up with codependency issues and being stuck with toxic people. And if we rationalize our panic reactions as something to analyze and solve - we will miss the big picture - that our panic signals toxic people around us, the actual problem are psychopaths around us, not our symptoms. With focus on our symptoms we will not be able to stick our head out of the sand and see reality, we will self blame and feel dirty and invalidated for having panic symptoms in social situations. This will leave us with hypervigilance and constant threat and we will believe we are the cause of this constant emotional dysregualtion.
What I learned is that toxic people are true cause of social anxiety and our inability to recognize this facts cause us to feel moral injury: witnessing the evil and doing nothing about it since we are explained that we are the sole problem, never other people.
In reality, toxic people are narcissists and Machiavellians. They cover up their abuse and they appear empathetic and altruistic, and they sprinkle their hidden agenda with honeymoon phases so this is the same mechanisms that parasites use to penetrate their target and suck energy from it.
Toxic people will nitpick, criticize and blame our natural mistakes, inner or external flaws and they will mock our lack of knowledge. They will perceive our mistakes as our aggression upon them. They will extort our natural and healthy urge to help others and to be kind to others and to never cause harm to others. They will simply state that we caused them harm, they will criticize our normal and natural mistakes as aggression upon their entitlement and present it as the proof we are unworthy, unacceptable and weird, abnormal. This way they will signal our inner critic to enforce toxic shame already present inside us. And we will interpret this abuse as our own panic symptom where we are abnormal and we must be confident, chirpy, happy and nice all the time. We will cut off our wings and cut off our natural reaction - that we state the objective reality, being transparent without drama and explosion. Instead we will shut up and self censor ourselves because we will believe that our discomfort is pathology and illness. In the end we will become people pleasers, pushover and we will fawn to society - as solution to our panic symptoms - which in reality are caused by untreated mentally ill people - psychopaths, sociopaths and narcissists.
Social anxiety is signal, it is not illness, if we believe we are the problem if we experience social anxiety - we will pathologize ourselves - and we will lead the life of hypervigilance, fears, anxiety, and emotional dysregulation.
With self love, self acceptance and self validation - we will validate our panic, fears and discomfort and we will confront toxic people to see how they react when they are being criticized - without explosions or drama. With social anxiety we will believe that our embarrassment and shame is our fault and that we imagine the threat. With self love we can rely on our instinct and experiment and test and voice out our opinion and express ourselves - and in this way we will expose the virus, toxic people - and consequently cut the out of our life.
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I would trust that feeling - even when wrong. IF we pathologize our natural instincts (this means we think our thoughts are abnormal and unacceptable and invalidated) - we will develop toxic shame. Instead of battling with social anxiety, I would instead allow myself to doubt, as Descartes instructed us 372 years ago.
Instead of investigating our thoughts - I would investigate the other person, how they react when I express myself, when I speak my opinion. IF I know that unless unkind and violent anything is allowed - I know that I am worthy for being who I am, with all mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge.
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Accept yourself as you are. With all mistakes and flaws and anything that other people will criticize about us. Unless unkind or violent, you are acceptable and there is nothing wrong with you. Toxic people nitpick and criticize our natural mistakes, inner and external flaws and they mock our lack of knowledge - and due to toxic shame we believe other people's opinions as ultimate truth. So the problem is other people who are toxic and with toxic shame we focus on other people as our guide - because we distrust ourselves, we think we are not acceptable and that our opinion is not normal. Anti-dote to this is self love, self acceptance and self validation which includes accepting social anxiety instead of trying to get rid of it, as suggested in this video.
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Toxic people cause social anxiety. They criticize our natural mistakes, they nitpick our inner or external flaws and they mock our lack of knowledge. IF we believe our reaction to toxic people (panic) is the problem, we will pathologize ourselves and we will destroy our self worth - and we will end up with toxic shame and external reference locus of control: trauma bonding and codependency, where we are convinced that other people are superior, better, competent, while we are not acceptable, weird, stupid, abnormal and trash. Unless unkind or violent, everything is allowed. Toxic people are like fascist - they impose their rules and approval - and if we believe other people are the truth givers, we will end up with social anxiety, where we will follow other people's definitions, perceptions and explanations.
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I discovered that social anxiety is a reaction to toxic people. You would not feel super confident if you were in the presence of serial killer, Putin or any other monster. In fact, it is natural to feel panic, uncomfortable and panic if you know that person next to you will destroy you when no one is looking. That is the purpose of anxiety, fears and panic - to mobilize us to action to do something about the threat.
So if you use imagination to stifle your fears, you will experience Moral injury: being exposed to evil and doing nothing about it.
So I would rather explore and experiment instead of ignoring our panic. This means expressing myself to check how other people react. Perhaps the person next to me is doubleganger that only looks like Putin or that serial Clown killer.
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Classical CBT will instruct socially anxious people to expose themselves to toxic people as a way to magically cure the distress, and it will instruct socially anxious people to distrust own feelings of being uncomfortable around toxic people. Thus I ended up with people pleasing issues, fawning and being pushover. I never was exposed to information such as Karpman Drama Triangle and to opt out - instead I was instructed to ignore toxic people as my imagination and anxiety fantasy. This is why I see Classical CBT as detrimental therapy for social anxiety.
For example; Learning that I am allowed to cut people off when they are toxic - even though I was on Twitter since 2009, I only allowed myself to exercise mute and block option a few months ago. Before, as instructed by Classical CBT, I would try to reason with the abusers, try to agree with them and seek their approval and validation that they are not angry and distressed about me or anything I said and had opinion of that they did not like.
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@Iwona Roslonek - Social Anxiety & Shyness Coach "We can stop believing and stop giving others the authority to enter and take possession of our minds." This is the problem 1) Classical CBT instruct us to focus on our panic symptoms as the official therapy for social anxiety by medical community. This has by-product effect of distrusting our feeling that someone is dangerous and toxic. and 2) Toxic people will never tell us that they are toxic. Instead, they will appear to us as altruistic, empathic, they will shower us with charm and attention and validation in honeymoon phase. As I said, they will use our mistakes, our flaws and lack of knowledge as a tool against ourselves - in order that we doubt our abilities and that we never doubt them - they will appear as savours and hero to us. That is the problem - that we will ignore red flags and we will stay in contact with toxic people, we will rationalize it is for our own good. We won't notice that toxic people are the true problem - and we will try to "fix" ourselves - our natural panic symptoms that are actually red flags. In this way, any therapy, any operation in fixing ourselves is extremely dangerous. We will kill off parts of ourselves that we need for life. We will destroy our self worth. And we will become philosophical zombie, person without persona, pushover and people pleaser with fawning and moral injury which will destroy us. Double bind leads to schizophrenia. Exposure to long term narcissistic abuse leads to brain injury.
If we try to fix our alarm system inside us - we will destroy ourselves. There is nothing to fix.
We are ok just as we are. The only problem are toxic people around us. And we cannot control other people. We can only cut contact with them or retort to their demands and criticism, unrealistic standards of perfectionism, their mental illness that they try to spread around through abuse which appears as normal and healthy to us.
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Instead of Classical CBT, there is the third wave of CBT called DBT. Along with Humanistic Psychology (Rollo, Rogers) DBT instructs us to self-love, self-acceptance and self-validation as oppose to pathologize our panic symptoms in social situations. That is the correct approach to life.
Classical CBT practically instruct us that if we have social anxiety - and for example, imagine you are in the room with a serial killer that you do not know is a killer - but you have a hunch that there is something wrong about this person - the classical CBT instructs you to ignore and rationalize your own instinct and uncomfortable feelings and your anxiety discomfort as an illusion, as a mere fantasy, as something that is wrong. And you end up with toxic person - because you deliberately ignore red flags which official therapy for social anxiety instructs you to ignore.
DBT instructs you to focus on consequences and objective reality- there are always red flags how to recognize toxic people, narcissists and psychopaths. For example they are prone to charm and showering their target with unusual attention and unnatural praise, they ask intrusive questions right away even if you just met etc.
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(24.5.2022)
"If you have a deep rooted sense of your own self-worth, this is when you can start upholding strong boundaries, relationships become healthier because you communicate without fear of rejection, without resentment."
So true! In my personal opinion, classical CBT directed me to pathologize socially anxiety signals inside me when I was around toxic people as over-reaction - and then I would ignore all my dislikes and instincts even when the other person was accusing me of untrue things. This non trusting our emotions and feelings even when they might be wrong is the recipe for toxic shame and removal of our self-worth, since I would reject all my inner feelings as fantasy, illusion of anxiety - and what happened is - I ended up with severe people pleasing issues, fawning and being pushover. I believed that my opinion does not matter since I have social anxiety. It never occurred to me that there are toxic people and that they are the cause of uncomfortable feelings that I feel - classical CBT explained this feelings as unacceptable. Third wave of CBT called DBT is focused on self-worth, self acceptance, self validation and self love.
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Classical CBT is based on the clinical definition of panic attack: "a sudden episode of intense fear that triggers severe physical reactions when there is no real danger or apparent cause".
So in social anxiety, the individual is coerced into rejecting and distrusting anxiety feelings and emotions as a mere figment of imagination and illusion, a fantasy.
Unfortunately, this means if you are in contact with toxic people , you will distrust your own negative feelings that spring up as a reaction to gaslighting and manipulation.
I ended up with people pleasing and fawning and being taken advantage of since I rejected all my uncomfortable feelings and scary emotions as instructed by Classical CBT to be based on no real threat.
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(25.5.2022)
"Often driven by faulty beliefs and assumptions about other people"
Ok, but let's ask: What to do if these assumptions are not faulty? What happens when those assumptions are totally true.
People who struggle then they have no information or guidance what to do when other people are really toxic. Common and immediate reply is a simple and obvious advice in form of: cut contact with toxic people. Yet - what if you cannot? What if for any reason you are bonded with toxic people - at least for a time being. And afterall there is a saying that you cannot run away from what you are afraid or unresolves - the problem will always run after you and follow you. As Oprah said, it will simply come in another pair or trousers.
We need concrete advice what to do when beliefs and assumptions are true.
For example, I've read a lot of self help books about social anxiety, confrontation, being assertive, self esteem etc. And in none of these books I never ever read that I am allowed to retort and say no. All self-help books come with the assumption that I never experienced Complex Trauma during growing up, so the premise is that I have ability to rely on my opinion, and trust myself even when wrong. This area of self worth and toxic shame is not explored in Classical CBT at all. In my case, once I understood that assumptions are true and that I lack self worth due to toxic shame, I suddenly understood that I can say certain words to defend myself without drama and explosions, such as "I disagree with you". With toxic people and complex trauma I never learned these 4 words. Instead I was taught to pretend to be strong on one side - to be stubborn and nervous as toxic environment around me showed me was the only way to express disagreement, or to people please and fawn on other side.
Classical CBT does damage in this because 1) classical CBT does not explain that assumptions might be true and 2) does not offer any concrete advice about self worth and retort that I learned after I discovered external reference locus of control.
For example, With classical CBT I can be literally in the same room with serial killer and if I listen to Classical CBT about panic symptoms and anxiety symptoms - I would distrust my instinct that something is wrong with this person and I would persuade myself to talk and communicate and socialize with this dangerous person, totally ignoring red flags and natural sixth sense inside me as illusion and fantasy.
Toxic people can negatively influence us (Blue - brown eyes experiment) and toxic people are manipulative, they know how to trigger our irrational guilt and shame. If we ignore and dismiss our uncomfortable feelings as a faulty assumption - we will create huge damage to ourselves.
I see better approach with accepting my distortions, even when they are wrong - and allowing myself to doubt myself and to doubt others - and then experiment and seek for evidence, see objective reality as much as I can and test it. And if I cannot test it nor experiment it - that I trust my feelings with the knowledge that I might be wrong, owning my potential mistake (turning down the opportunities) - as oppose to distrust my uncomfortable feelings of anxiety and panic. If I reject my thoughts, opinions, feelings and emotions as faulty - I will destroy my self worth. And I will end up with toxic shame and external reference locus of control (codependency and fawning). In this way I see Classical CBT as faulty therapy. It does more damage than good.
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In my case I discovered that these shoulds are imposed to me externally and I am always in situation where I cannot reject these shoulds. Please let me explain:
Toxic people will nitpick and criticize our natural mistakes that happen around any action. Toxic people will should our external and internal flaws, something that we cannot change at least not right away. Toxic people will mock our lack of knowledge - whereas if we do something for the first time it is totally normal to not know how something works in comparison if we do that same thing for 30 years.
So basically toxic people will nitpick, criticize and ashame our urge to be helpful to society, they will criticize our desire to cause no harm to other people by doing our job spotless and without mistakes. In this way - toxic people will influence our shoulds. They will trigger our guilt and shame that we feel bad about making mistakes instead of being perfect - and in this way shoulds are imposed to us externally by toxic people who appear as altruistic, helpful, guidance and someone we ought to trust since they correct our mistakes.
And for an argument that people cannot control our opinions and thoughts and choices, consider this: Jane Elliott made experiment in racism called Blue-Brown eyes, and she discovered that praise can influence our thinking: wikipedia: "Elliott lied to the children by stating that melanin was linked to their higher intelligence and learning ability. Shortly thereafter, this initial resistance fell away. Those who were deemed "superior" became arrogant, bossy, and otherwise unpleasant to their "inferior" classmates. Their grades on simple tests were better, and they completed mathematical and reading tasks that had seemed outside their ability before. The "inferior" classmates also transformed – into timid and subservient children who scored more poorly on tests, and even during recess isolated themselves, including those who had previously been dominant in the class. These children's academic performance suffered, even with tasks that had been simple before."
This happens because criticizing triggers our brain into amygdala and our cortex brain is switched off.
I dislike Classical CBT because it states that all our uncomfortable, anxious, scary opinions, assumptions are faulty. Well, if we are in toxic environment - they are probably correct. If we distrust our feelings and emotions - we create toxic shame and we will end up with external reference locus of control which leads to codependency issues and fawning. In this way Classical CBT does more damage than good.
Third wave of CBT, called DBT - focuses on accepting our "shoulds" and distortions, instead of stifling them down. If we aware that we might doubt our thoughts, and to doubt others (as Descartes taught us 372 years ago), we can rely on our own feelings and emotions - even when these are distorted - probably due to long term exposure to narcissistic abuse.
And instead of going into civil war with our cognitive distortions and weeding our natural byproduct of being exposed to toxic people - I would rather focus on self worth and self love - and then gradually remove toxic habits and toxic people away from my life - and then see if I still have shoulds issues and any other cognitive distortions. I see greater priority in the reliance on my mind and feelings. Rather than pathologizing them and correcting them - I would first explore and discover if is there an external factor that is triggering them. Classical CBT unfortunately does not explain this. Classical CBT focused only on the person and our mind as the only cause of problems. I see this as extremely damaging and wrong approach.
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"any one of us can be perceived as toxic. Some are considered more toxic than others." This is a good point. What is toxic by definition. Toxic people, narcissists will blame and shift blame and accuse their target as toxic. This accusation does not mean that their target is really toxic. This is where it becomes complex, because of double bind phenomena - which states due to dualism and yin yang world, anything in life can be viewed from different angle. So unless unkind and violent, anything else is prone to different impressions.
This means, it is very helpful to know the definition of toxic. If we do not know this definition - we will be manipulated, and forced into shame and self-censorship. Since toxic people will use double bind to clean themselves and they will use double bind to ashame their target. Also if we do not know definition of toxic - and if we are not aware of double bind manipulation - we will destroy our self worth - and this will create mental imbalance inside us, we will end up with codependency issues and toxic shame - where we will distrust our feelings and emotions because someone else will explain these feelings and emotions as faulty. In medical community, this is what Classical CBT does to socially anxious people. Classical CBT states that your anxiety is imaginary and it is comprised of faulty distortions thoughts. So if you end up being surrounded by toxic, manipulative people, you will dismiss and reject red flags - and you will end up being in toxic relationship, because official medical therapy for social anxiety instructs you to expose yourself to toxic people.
I see easy solution to this complex issue. it comes down to 1) trusting yourself, trusting our emotions and feelings - if we allow ourselves to doubt our thoughts and to doubt other people, we will not become delusional - yet with trusting our mind, we will create self worth - and this is immunity against toxic people. 2) to examine, to experiment, to test - and see if our feelings, emotions about something is true or not. This means, be objective and transparent, be authentic. Toxic people hate transparency and truth - and this authentic truth speaking will be natural repellent against manipulative narcissists.
So the definition of toxic comes basically down to: if we have no ill wish, if we have no hidden agenda to hurt anyone, if we do not want to exploit someone, if we are not Machiavellians, if we do not enjoy in someone's pain, if we do not focus on causing anyone pain, if we take pity and have compassion for anything that is irritating to us - there is nothing toxic about our actions. This means, we are allowed to cut contact and to decline someone and to say no. The other person will define us as toxic, arrogant for doing so. But as definition states - if we are not holy Crusaders who destroy "non-believers" in the process - we are not toxic.
For me personally this was very difficult lesson to learn. I was convinced that all other people are superior and whatever they say is automatic truth. I distrusted my own opinion since Classical CBT taught me to see any my dislike as toxic and faulty and imaginary. I ended up being pushover, with fawning and people pleasing issues - and other people took advantage of me easily. I never allowed myself to disagree with someone - since the most common response would be that I am toxic if I disagree, for example: that I am too sensitive, take things to personally, that I am stubborn, that I am weird and unacceptable if I do not comply. Classical CBT never taught me about double bind phenomena, self worth importance - instead I was being taught that I do not trust any uncomfortable and anxious feeling inside me.
And the definition is - if we are kind and non violent - we are not toxic, we are allowed to disagree with someone, we are allowed to say no and to decline without explanation. The only problem are toxic people who impose their faulty and wrong definitions of toxic.
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"Stop forgiving people for lying very early on. Why you give benefit of doubt?" For me personally, I had this issue of ignoring red flag due to Classical CBT. I have issues with social anxiety - and classical CBT (which is accepted as default tool for social anxiety and avoidance by medical community, which means all self help books are based on it) tells us that we ignore our red flags. Classical CBT is teaching us that our irritation about other people are our own fantasy, imagination. This is found in the official definition of panic attack: "A panic attack is a sudden episode of intense fear that triggers severe physical reactions when there is no real danger or apparent cause." The same thing for anxiety attack - the main medical response to anxiety is that we have false thoughts and our thinking is the problem, not other people.
This is why many people will ignore red flags. The classical CBT is found in media, books, resources where they explain our triggers and red flags as a cognitive distortion: ""Often driven by faulty beliefs and assumptions about other people""
I tried to seek any information online what if your anxiety and panic attack feelings and emotions have real danger and apparent cause - and I could not find literally no explanation what to do in this case.
Online there is a common reply that I cut contact and run away. But then again - there is virtually no explanation what to do when 1) you cannot run away and you are forced to be stuck with toxic person, nor what to do when 2) you are not aware that you are in the presence of toxic person and you have not informed yourself about dark psychology, manipulation and Machiavellians out there. So your videos are very informative and helpful from this angle - you are filling up the information gap that people become aware that toxic people exist and we have to recognize them through red flags.
8:50 "Trusting your intuition and your gut" Yeah, this is extremely shocking problem with social anxiety and Classical CBT. As I said, official medical therapy for feelings of anxiety, and trepidation that we distrust our intuition and our gut. The official medical community is telling and explaining us that we have cognitive distortions and we are delusional. That we do not trust our intuition and our gut. From my own experience of 20 years with Classical CBT I can say from my experience that we need to trust our intuition and our gut. It is always correct. This is where it gets complex actually.
Because we might decide to avoid and shut down from life - because there is so much danger, hurt and pain in social life. We might decide to trust our gut and develop agoraphobia - fear of going outside since there is obviously too many toxic people out there to deal and face with.
I see solution in DBT, third wave of CBT - which states that we build our own self worth, intrinsic locus of control - and this means that we do take actions, that we make mistakes, that we follow our gut in alignment with our desires, what makes us happy, what is healthy and what is contributing to society and ourselves in healthy way. The idea is that there are good people out there, as Timothy Leary described it, as missing puzzles that we collect. Toxic people drain our energy and they make us focus on them, as if we are captured under their bell jar, as Sylvia Plath described it. So solution is not that we build ourselves a new bell jar and keep safe underneath it. We simply have to discern toxic and healthy people and stick with healthy people out there.
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" but to focus on trying to change the situation." That is misleading. If we are in contact with toxic person without realizing that this is a toxic person - and we try to change the situation, we will listen to this person, we will try to negotiate with them. While in the same time toxic person is extremely manipulative and triggers our guilt and shame. Classical CBT will explain to us that our reaction is over-reaction and that we cannot trust our own feelings. That our anxiety and panic is imaginary. This part of Classical CBT is extremely damaging and misleading.
The official definition of panic attack is pathologizing our natural reaction: "A panic attack is a sudden episode of intense fear that triggers severe physical reactions when there is no real danger or apparent cause."
Classical CBT does not explain what to do when there is a real and apparent cause. How to recognize toxic person. Nor how to deal with manipulative people - who are the true cause of anxiety, panic and all our depressions.
Instead - classical CBT instructs us to distrust our own instinct and feelings and emotions and that we regard our emotions of anxiety, panic and depression as a mere illusion, delusional paranoia.
Third wave of CBT called DBT fixed this. That we accept our feelings and emotions and to trust them even if they are wrong and distorted. That through acceptance we can realize when we over-react and when we are in toxic environment that is causing the distortions and anxieties and depression.
If we label our thinking as distortion, we are toxically ashaming ourselves and this will destroy our self worth, and we will end up with toxic shame and people pleasing and fawning, like an insect trapped in a bell jar.
Self worth is when we accept our fears, anxiety and depression - with the knowledge that we doubt them, yet to stick with ourselves nevertheless. Without self worth we are cripples. We won't be able to stand up for ourselves, we won't be able to grow our self worth, nor our identity nor our persona. We'll be stuck in resentment, hypervigilance and trauma forever - by pathologizing our own thoughts and emotions as unacceptable, wrong and abnormal.
The truth is that all people are prone to cognitive bias, confirmation bias. All people are wrong. No one is perfect, no one is god. We cannot punish ourselves for having "unacceptable" feelings, nor we can change them by force. The change comes only through acceptance and pity and mercy towards ourselves and others who irritate us.
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(26.5.2022)
Yeah, I learned that toxic people do not break us. I was convinced that my HSP will get dull and broken - but instead it only sharpen my senses to recognize and detect toxic traits that hurt me. The problem is only if I label this sensitivity as wrong, abnormal or dangerous - if I pathologize myself and think that I am the problem. Classical CBT instructed me to see my panic symptoms and anxiety symptoms as wrong and abnormal - it is only after I learned about Complex Trauma is that I finally started to remove self blame and self guilt imposed by classical CBT instructions (Which are the default message in self help books printed until recently). Even today, you can search you tube videos about people pleasing and being too nice - and mentors will try to change you by shaming your agreeableness as illness and misfortune and that you are the problem - never the toxic person on the other side.
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" but you can change your boundaries" This part was blurry for me. I could not understand what boundaries means. The definition was fuzzy and unclear and examples that I read in self help books or any resources were not relatable to me. With time I learned that this is because toxic people and narcissistic people demand different kind of boundaries. This happens because they are manipulators. It is not that they are bluntly rude. They manipulate. This is the reason why typical boundary settings did not work for me, neither I could impose them.
"unable to say no to anyone" Toxic people are manipulators. They never express their aggression with the option that you can say no. This part was complex and difficult to understand. It is only after complex trauma discovery and channels like this one that I started to understand: toxic people live in a fantasy world, they invent their own rules. so you cannot reason with them, they change reality according to their mental illness. Toxic people are skillful at manipulation so that they already have "no" clause as response to their manipulation covered. This is what they live for, this is the source for their energy - that they swindle you. So with analyzing what is wrong I shockingly discovered that behind their actions and demands is paranoia. That fuels their perfectionism and this is how they manipulate easy targets: people who are kind and nice and who follow rules and try to be good citizens that cause no harm to others. They literally rip of our arms and beat us with it. They take away our urge and healthy thinking and beat us with it. They do this by nitpicking, criticizing and mocking our natural mistakes, our external or internal flaws and our lack of knowledge - then they highlight it into catastrophe and create drama and life of death dilemma about it. And we are left immobile and silent - because we really did make some mistake, we really do have some flaw which may be out of our control even, and we did get caught in lack of information and data about something. And they simply attack it. And we cannot defend ourselves because we want to be perfect, they are training us like circus animals to be perfectionist. Where perfectionism is mental illness. The reality is that no one is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes, that is natural byproduct of any action or any social situation.
So our boundary of saying no does not work here. The better and more intelligent and spot on laser sharp focused boundary would be to retort to their false accusations. Narcissists hate transparency and truth. So we can criticize them back about what they are doing wrong. For example - I can say without drama and explosions that I cannot know something if I do it for the first time. I can say that I disagree with them. The problem is that many empaths have complex trauma - which means we were hurt and trained in childhood to react with panic and anxiety attack (triggers and flashbacks) to anything that resembles narcissistic abuse today, now as adults. So when someone is rude, the chances are that our nervous system will get activated - and this means our amygdala will be hijacked, and our cortex brain will be switched off. And this is how they manipulate us. They hypnotize us into submission, hypervigilance, self censorship, fear and anxiety. And in this state you cannot think clearly. You cannot say no. You cannot think of retort. And you will soak up their criticism as toxic shame - proof that I am inept and I must listen to them as superior beings.
If we can cut contact with these people - it is best to move away from them and cut them off our lives. If we must live with them (job, security, finances, service, help) - we must learn how to retort to their unfair and unjust criticism - by knowing what is happening in reality so that we do not develop toxic shame and self blame as byproduct of their aggression.
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You can be agreeable & express your own option or perspective in the same time. It is narcissistic society that taught us that these two things are different and must not go hand in hand. Narcissistic society is teaching us that if we express our disagreeableness that we must do it through drama, explosions and wars.
So we will be labeled by others as arrogant if we are honest with them. In reality - we can respect other person, agree to be friends with them, and still disagree with them. Arrogant person is the one who never doubts own opinion and firmly believes in it (which is also mental illness and egocentrism). In reality, we are allowed to stick to our truth and to doubt it in the same time. Descartes taught us about this 372 years ago - but as I said, narcissistic society distorts normal and healthy aspects. For example, in the most movies and media you will hear Descartes famous quote I think, therefore I am. in reality, Descartes said; I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am.
We are literally living in a matrix, where narcissists are running the world, they twist definitions to their preferences, and they distort our reality which we feel as anxiety, depression, fears and deep sense that something is wrong. Education is our tool to sanity and health.
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Horrible person. He is instructing young impressionable men to become mentally ill and narcissistic.
No, you do not have to grow teeth. No, conflict does not equate with wars, explosions and drama.
And no, Friedrich Nietzsche never said that you have to be monster to deal with adult males who might take advantage of you if you treat them like infants. Nietzsche said; ""Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed"" So the message is to be honest, like in Zoroastrian religion - and express your truth with kindness, not by biting people. Watch for your words, actions and deeds ( Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed).
JP is literally instructing young men to become borderline, nervous, hysterical women, a Karen. His license should be revoked.
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Problem are toxic people, manipulators and Machiavellians. This means, we are not aware that we are manipulated in the first place. So we won't get a chance to have idea to set boundary. Instead we will try to resolve puzzles they throw at us to solve. Another problem is when due to job, service, help, finances, shelter - basically any Maslow basic needs - we cannot cut contact. So we are stuck with toxic people - which will create toxic shame inside us, feeling of being inept and irrational guilt which will make us immobile and passive. Third problem is when we have to be consistent every single time - actually we will be controlled by them, since we will waste our focus on their attacks and drama and explosions. And most often we will come off as Karen, hysterical since they know which button to push. Fourth problem is - imagine how toxic we will become when we are constantly explaining and expressing our needs. We will not be perceived as self worth and charismatic. Instead we will appear needy and weak. When someone is complaining all the time - it is unbearable.
The basic bottom line is if we are in contact with someone who is triggering our emotions and sanity - it is best to move away from them if possible. That person is manipulative, toxic and narcissistic, they will not change and they will chip off our mental health.
If we cannot cut contact and we must be in the presence of toxic people - I see education and awareness what is going on really. Toxic people are mentally ill. They live in a fantasy world, egocentric, never grown up, they have toxic habits which will trigger our boundaries. And we cannot control other people. Toxic people hate transparency and truth, they hate objectivity and someone criticizing their wrongdoings. Well, since they are manipulative and have hidden agenda of devouring energy, attention and resources from anything and anyone around them - they already calculated all this into consideration how to manipulate.
This means, Toxic people will nitpick our natural mistakes. This is how they will immobilize us and make us unable to respond to them, since we want to not make mistakes. We are the responsible ones, healthy ones, we are the ones who want to make our task and job perfect. So they beat us up with our own health, our own sanity and our ability to organize life. That is how they manipulate. So - when we know this, instead of driving to perfectionism and saying sorry to them constantly due to our mistakes, instead of feeling guilty and ashamed - we can retort directly to the hidden issue - our mistake and explanation that it is not mistake at all. Mistakes are natural part of any action and any social situation. It is not something to ashame or blame. Next are internal or external flaws. This is how they freeze us into passivity and self guilt, self blame, and toxic shame. They will criticize and nitpick anything wrong about us our what we are doing and make us feel guilty because of it. This is why we won't be able to make any boundary - since they will twist reality into them being attacked. They will create perception that we are breaking their boundaries and that we are evil people and arrogant and abnormal and stupid and aggressive ones. They simply shift and turn the table the other way around. And since we want to be kind and nice people - we will never ever consider that they may be lying and manipulating us into submission and passivity and irrational guilt.
The third thing that they use in their dark psychology is that they will attack, criticize, nitpick and mock our lack of knowledge - so we will feel dumb, stupid, inept, unworthy and unacceptable for not knowing something. This way they inject toxic shame into us. With toxic shame inside us, our amygdala will be hijacked, and our cortex brain will be switched off, the same process as in complex trauma when we are triggered by events similar to the original abuse - and we will never seek or understand or be aware of what is really going on. In this way, toxic people will manipulate us into submission and passivity and inability to set nor maintain any boundary.
We are dealing here with psychopaths and sociopaths who's only purpose in life is to parasite over kind, nice, normal, healthy, civil, friendly, kind individuals, which are perfect targets for these mentally ill people.
Once we are aware that toxic people operate by criticizing our mistakes, flaws and lack of data - we can finally shake off our toxic shame, irrational guilt and start to retort to their unfair and unjust accusations. Instead of being controlled by shame and guilt, we realize that we are being gaslit and double binded into passivity and submission. Instead of shutting up and self-censorship - as natural reaction when we feel we made something wrong, when we feel guilty and ashamed - we can open our eyes and be scientific - seek evidence, be objective, speak the truth, have advocacy instead of subservience and inferiority complex that they impose upon us by triggering and criticizing our mistakes, flaws and ignorance.
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Whoa. This is like veil being taken away from my eyes. I grew up in narcissistic, shame culture environment where certainly anything explained at 4:20 was the opposite to anything I was taught in life, I was repeatedly punished and reprimanded and ashamed to learn, as program or hypnosis, in various situations and at any timeline and with anyone (any age range or from any social hierarchy) that: 1) I must explain in detailed response my behaviour and actions 2) I must find solutions to anyone who is demanding me to fix something 3) I have no right to change my mind 4) I have no right to make any mistake 5) I have no right to say I don't know something 6) I have no right to speak or show in any way that I do not care.
Time and time again in my life I was explicitly reinforced like circus animal to go the opposite way of being assertive and told that this is normal way that won't get me punished (yelled at, physically abused, ashamed, mocked, rejected, ignored). Actually I spend a lot of time, energy and money to learn that I actually do have right to some of these.
As I spend a lot of analysis what is wrong, I learned that toxic people explain reality in a specific way so that I feel irrational guilt - and this guilt makes me passive, immobile and ashamed. I discovered that they use Dark psychology manipulation and they criticize, mock and nitpick mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge as a entitlement and reason and proof that I am inept, and they have right to demand superiority over me - because I made some mistake, or there is some external or internal flaw that cannot be corrected at least not right away, and that lack of data is proof that I am inept and inferior. In reality - everyone makes mistakes, no one is perfect. Flaws are natural and no one can't know everything.
For example, I never thought that I am allowed to say "I disagree with you" without drama and explosion. I was repeatedly forced to believe that if I disagree with someone I have only one way to express it: through hysteria, drama and declaration of war. And since I am not violent nor unkind, I was stuck with people pleasing, being pushover and fawning as reaction to anyone in life. And classical CBT did not help much, because it is default therapy for social anxiety, and it basically instruct you to believe that you are the only problem if you feel uncomfortable around toxic people and that the only problem to resolve are panic and anxiety feelings you might feel when someone is demanding you to explain your behaviour, that I must fix their emotions and problems, that I must never change my mind, that my mistakes are my transgressions which I must pay dearly in the form of being subservient to them, that I am not allowed to not know something and that I must be punished if I don't care about toxic people.
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Being introverted and passive is not the same thing. Being fed and being leader is not everyone's cup of tea. Speaking up is sometimes obstructed by toxic people who make it complex because they target your mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge against you. Toxic people use dark psychology. So if you speak up as a "cure" for not taking advantage of and progress - you will end up by falling into trap of Machiavellians - people who expect you to respond to their puzzle of manipulation, you will end up being controlled by mentally ill people who are aggressive and parasitical. Speaking up is only a small part.
The hidden and untold part is simply being honest and transparent since toxic people hate objectivity and anything that can expose their web of lies & deceit & manipulation.
And anyways, I would not walk into any bar and start being friends with anyone there. Why would I want to be friends with the whole world - that is impossible and it is urge to people please, to fawn to people and to seek validation and approval from other people - which is far from being assertive.
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"being self assured and confident without being aggressive" In my experience, from anything I learned in my life so far - and I found out this the hard way - by having deep analysis - is that being assertive is being authentic and honest, there is nothing more or special nor we do not have to make any magical spectacular tricks about it. It simply comes down to Zoroastrian motto: being honest, being authentic, being yourself - without being mean and evil to other people in the same time. Having good words, good deeds and expressing those without drama and explosions. Speaking the truth may seem as stupid, sissy, weak and ineffective, but in reality - speaking the truth is extremely radical and explosive, simply stating the statistics, facts, being objective - can trigger certain people into meltdown, without even being vulgar to them, aggressive and rude about it. Some people with hidden agenda cannot handle the truth since it exposes their narcissistic true self which they try to hide.
What the problem is here - are the toxic people. That is the only problem with people who have issue with assertiveness. There is nothing wrong with us. There is nothing to fix or heal or cure inside us. We are not the problem. Every person has basic inner true value - and we can express it by our words, opinions and this way we build our self worth. If we shut up and self censor ourselves when we want to speak up - we will build toxic shame and we will depend on other people to explain truth to us, we will develop inferiority complex.
Toxic people use dark psychology to manipulate other people into subservience and they destroy assertiveness. That we shut up and self censor ourselves. Assertiveness by definition would be when we do not feel irrational guilt for our mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge. Toxic, narcissistic people nitpick and criticize our mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge and this way we become passive and get stuck with inferiority complex and toxic shame. Complex trauma and long term narcissistic abuse doesn't help much either.
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Dominance and being successful - this is a very broad and vague goal.
The problem are toxic people - mentally ill people who are aggressive. They employ dark psychology - so they already do have manipulative tools how they immobilize their victims - including your "no". "Say what you feel" - there is psychological phenomena called double bind - which states that anything in life can be viewed as bad and unacceptable from both sides.
Toxic people target any defense or action you may take. They do this by targeting your mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge as a proof of you being inept, unacceptable and abnormal - so if you get into fantasy mode that you must be dominant - you will actually built narcissistic personality disorder - since the only way to handle accusations for your mistakes is to deny and ignore you haven't done anything wrong. In long term you may end up with criminal record since you will not have working amygdala inside to tell you when you go overboard. People are not gods, we cannot be perfectionist. We cannot know everything. And we cannot dominate everyone - and being tyrannical will make you a lot of enemies and you will make your life a living hell. So I would re-define what dominance and being successful means and what means are you willing to do in order to succeed in life.
The reality is that no matter what money you have, no matter your villa and cars - you will not carry none of these into afterlife. And if you hurt other people just to make money and be dominant - you have to know there are laws and regulations which define punishment for breaking the society laws.
I am not judging here. If you want to sniff cocaine, torture people, make money by stabbing people in their backs, and pretend to be monster - it is your life. See where it will lead you. If someone's persona is being civil, normal and healthy - it is misleading to state that the only way to do this is by pretending to be monster or by being monster.
You can say no to people and still care for them. You can say what you feel without becoming Karen and hysterical.
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"We worry what other people think of us and we allow that to fester." I learned (by spending a lot of time analyzing) that it is not this simple. It is in fact very complex.
People stay silent mostly because they are being manipulated into silence, guilt and shame. Please let me explain.
Toxic people target our mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge. They criticize, nitpick and mock our natural and unintentional mistakes as the catastrophe. And we believe them since they trigger inside us the urge to help others, urge to make our jobs without causing harm anyone in the process. They basically rip off our natural and healthy need to be healthy and civil human being and they beat us up with it into subservience and silence. Toxic people criticize our flaws - which may be internal or external - something that is out of our control and something that cannot be replaced or changed immediately - and they highlight it as a proof we are aggressive, arrogant, unacceptable, rude towards them or society. And - we shut up as a way to show that we are not aggressive, arrogant, rude or uncaring. So basically toxic people employ dark psychology to gaslight us into subservience and passivity and immobility and they trigger our irrational guilt that appears as rational response to terrible and horrible actions we took which are outside of our control yet appear as our own responsibility - and thus we must fix and amend our perceived and introjected, imposed transgressions by being silent and non assertive. Another tool they use is mocking our lack of knowledge. Since all people are not gods, since we are not machines, since we are not computers - we will not know everything, no matter how high IQ or willingness to do the best job. However toxic people will present our lack of data as proof that we are inept, stupid, abnormal, wrong and dangerous - and thus they will mold us into silence and passivity and subservience. And if we say something - it will be interpreted as arrogance and aggression and attack on them. They use double bind.
So - being assertive is very complex. If we have issues with being assertive - instead of pathologizing ourselves by adding up to blame and shame by calling ourselves as cowards etc, I would rather open my eyes and remove veil over my head and see true reality. That there are sick, mentally ill people, toxic people out there who are using dark psychology to manipulate us and thus hurt us. IF we have issues with assertiveness, it is a red flag, alarm a signal and sign that we are in the presence of highly manipulative, controlling narcissists, mentally ill person who is untreated and extremely dangerous for our mental health.
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" daily complaints, blame, criticism and accusations as well as constant irritation (not to mention the anger, the rage and the hatred)" Yep. And they manipulate reality and blame our mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge as the proof we are actually the toxic ones and we are the ones who are irritating them, and that they have the right to treat people like trash since they feel pain and hurt by our words and actions that they label as mistake, flaw or ignorance. So we try to correct our "wrongdoings" without realizing what is truly going on - that we are manipulated. Toxic people trigger and use our inner urge to be kind and nice person who makes no mistakes and cause no harm to others - they rip this healthy need and urge from inside us and they beat us up with our own values and persona and civility.
This happens because they present our mistakes, flaws and confirmation bias as catastrophe and aggression - so instead of retort and objective reality - we go into defense and we try to correct and solve orders that they place upon us to fix situation which they deem as our responsibility - and we believe them. We never bring them into question and that they are being unreasonable.
In the same way, person with social anxiety will get official medical therapy for social anxiety which is based on Classical CBT. And this therapy states that our panic and anxiety symptoms are our own problem, that we have cognitive distortions. In the same way narcissistic abuse and invalidation targets our traits, persona and actions as unacceptable and abnormal - and we end up without any self worth - and instead of self worth we get stuck with toxic shame - deep ingrained belief that we are not competent, acceptable and normal in comparison with other people who appear without negative feelings. I see common cause of trauma and any negative emotions - as being in external factor: manipulative, toxic people in our midst. If we cannot remove ourselves from toxic environment - the only tool we have is awareness, videos like this, education and to retort to accusations and unfair and unjust criticism by targeting their claims as faulty and unfair and unrealistic. Sometimes it is only enough to speak without drama nor explosions: "I disagree with you". With toxic shame we shut up and self-censor ourselves - and in this way we give green light for abuse to continue. We think we made mistake, we are flawed and we do not know truth - and this will keep us in cycle of seeking validation and approval from external source.
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(27.5.2022)
This all happens due to toxic people. They are the cause of brain injury, chasm and trauma in the first place. And they trigger us into dysregulation and keep us hooked in unproductive reactions and responses - whereas we can't know how to handle criticism, gaslighting - we can't even recognize it in the first place, missing red flags - and instead of retort or cutting contact, we trauma bind with them, create codependent relationship. I see external factor as the cause of all issues. If we pathologize ourselves, if we attack and try to modulate our own response to abnormal people - we will destroy our self worth inside - and this is what keeps us hooked to toxic people and toxic habits. Like, I am not worthy if I still make a mistake and keep doing the wrong things. Or I am not competent if I still feel fear and panic when in the presence of difficult people. I see self-acceptance and knowing in advance how to respond to narcissistic abuse as the key. For example, until I learned about Complex Trauma, I was convinced that I have only two options to respond to someone who is unreasonable and aggressive: that 1) I must fight with them in order to appear macho masculine and worthy OR 2) I must fawn and be passive and be pushover and enable them. As if there is no alternative, such as simply state: "I disagree with you" and cut contact if possible.
In this regard, I was on Twitter since 2009. I was convinced that I must tolerate evil and negative people - because that is a sign that I am better person, more tolerant and example to others, and that I can somehow be friends with everybody. It is only a few months ago that I realized that I can actually use block option, mute option and report violent profiles. That this does not make me weak, unfair, arrogant or backstabber or snitch. I see our actions and beliefs being pathologized as wrong (due to narcissistic programming in childhood), we received a lot of false and criminal advice and guidance that does not serve us. I would go in the direction of self acceptance, at least for us empaths who would never hurt others, even when attacked by them - where we have been labeled by toxic people as cowards, weak and inept for not "standing up for ourselves". Again, our basic trait has been pathologized and instructed to cause us moral injury inside. I see toxic people and their definitions and their criticism as crucial cause of disorder. I would go into the direction where we remove toxic people, toxic habits and toxic environment wherever possible and see if we still have emotional dysregulation, paranoid thoughts, moral injury, resentment, fears, panic and anxieties. And if we cannot remove toxic - that we learn how to retort in healthy way, instead of listening to wrong, narcissistic programming, words, definitions, perceptions and orders that were planted in us through life.
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Manipulators will trigger our senses of right, of what is moral and our need to not cause anyone harm against us. They do this by nitpicking our mistakes, inner or external flaws and lack of knowledge. So they will make us submissive, and wrong and ashamed and feeling guilty - by turning the table and telling we are the ones who are toxic and we are the ones who are causing them pain and hurt - and we have to make amends by being subservient, silent and in the end taken advantage of.
I would rather focus on their accusations, which are false. Instead of getting hooked up to their unjust and unfair criticism - that we pinpoint their lies and expose them for being unrealistic and tyrannical.
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(28.5.2022)
Personally, I think we do not need any self help, no guidance, nothing - because there is absolutely nothing to fix. We are not problem. None, nada, absolutely nothing inside about us is wrong or pathological.
The only and 1 and only problem are toxic people. As long as we label and pathologize our trait, persona or anything about us as "Too nice" we are letting narcissistic people to abuse us, to control us and that we crap fit to their bullshit, hysteria and their mental illness.
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(29.5.2022)
We are explained by narcissistic society that our urge to be peacemaker is weakness, being pushover and people pleaser. Then we become weak, pushover and people pleaser since we believe labels and misdiagnosis. This is how social anxiety grows.
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2:22 "consult professional for help" Professional help: Your anxiety is your own invention, and go on to expose to toxic people to gain "immunity".
Official definition for panic attack is: "A panic attack is a sudden episode of intense fear that triggers severe physical reactions when there is no real danger or apparent cause."
Official definition from "Proffesionals" does not offer guideline what to do if there is truly real and apparent cause. This is how Classical CBT keeps trapped socially anxious folks in drama and self pathologizing.
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(30.5.2022)
"Social anxiety is the result of your brain perceiving threat socially." Ok, but... what happens when there is a real threat? Why can't we get any clear information what to do then? What to do when you are in presence of extremely toxic person, Machiavellian - someone manipulative, borderline - who appears as a friend but nags and complains and is negative all the time, criticizing you, mixed with target empathy? What when you are in toxic environment and you cannot run-fight or flight about it - how to deal with being cornered? Why we never get absolutely none information about this?
"This perception of threat triggers FFF response, which in turn puts your whole system in survival mode." There is a fourth F, often overlooked by classical CBT - and it is called Fawning. Interestingly, fawning is common response to trauma, complex trauma - which is another term never used by Classical CBT. What to do when you have C-PTSD. And no, it is not PTSD.
"And your whole system is optimally energized to deal with the threat." Why would we self-pathologize our automatic and out of control mechanism inside us? If we self blame and attack ourselves for reacting - we will destroy self worth inside us. We will destroy our ability to trust our own gut, instinct, even when it is wrong. This will lead to toxic shame and fawning, and this causes moral injury - being trapped with toxic person who is evil and doing nothing about it, just witnessing criminal behaviour, abuse.
"But in order to become 100% anxiety-free you need to eliminate this perception of threat." Ok. But what you do when there is a real threat?
"Luckily this perception is learned, any by combining the best therapy and the best energy it can be un learned." This sounds to me like adding up more additional anxiety on the top of existing one. What if you are extremely intelligent and you see injustice and abuse and harm everywhere? You will destroy your IQ as solution? What if you are HSP and perceive emotions and relationships at more deeper and more detailed manner than most of conformist? Should be go to groupthink and herd mentality and destroy our individuality?
And yeah, what if there is a clear and real threat? And that is not illusion, delusion, false perception? What you do then?
Toxic people are the true cause of social anxiety. Exposure to abuse does not dull us neither it destroy us. It makes us even more sharp and intellectually we can perceive toxic people even at more depth and with more intelligence.
Classical CBT should be banned. It is equivalent to lobotomy done to Francis Farmer. It is criminal, nazi approach to mental health.
Humanistic therapies are more healthier and far superior.
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People are not there for us to use them for our experiment. This is why psychologists refrain from making experiments as they used to do before 1960s. People are not there so that we use them up and brush them off and throw away like dirty rag when we are finished.
Quick fix to social anxiety might be fight response, to become narcissistic, to put on narcissistic mask and to become annoying, loud and obnoxious. However people will get annoyed by narcissist, it is negative spiral.
Making fool of yourself will not make you better. Making a mistake, having a flaw and lack of knowledge and still be active will make you better.
This experiment does not show what happens when you really do meet someone toxic, dangerous, aggressive, critical and rude. All the time, not one time event.
Social anxiety is not totally negative. Thinking about other people allows us to build relationships with others. If we are careful how we appear in public, we will most likely get a job, as oppose to be rude and careless to people. If we self-pathologize our personality trait we will create toxic shame and we will end up being codependent, and we will depend on seeking external approval and validation from others. This experiment shows us that we actually do depend on what other people think - since we were suppose to feel good about ourselves for good and nice people being tolerant to us making a fool out of ourselves in public.
Perhaps instead of being stuck in egocentrism and feeling bad and miserable - well maybe we could stuck our head out of the sand and actually see that there are other people around us who have worse than we have and well, maybe we can help them - instead of being self involved about our own selfish interest? How radical would that be as oppose of making a monkey out of us and feeling good for being selfish and self absorbed?
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I believe people use google and they quickly self-diagnose themselves for having social anxiety and that is also part of a problem. Many narcissists lost their narcissistic supply due to isolation and then they are convinced this is social anxiety when they scroll society and lack of feeling good over internet search - which in reality comes from for not having anyone to admire them and no codependents to use up for their selfish agenda.
"This is safe" What happens when it is not safe? What if there are toxic people out there? What then?
"You can handle feeling discomfort" Let I put it like this. What if we are in the same room with a serial killer - and we do not know this is a psychopaths. So we get all kinds of red flags and gut feeling - I do not see that neither accepting nor rejecting anxious feelings in such situation is the key or anything to think about or ponder about. The only problem is that we are not trusting our instinct, that we focus on ourselves instead of scientifically scan our environment and seek evidence to support our discomfort. For example, if we learn about psychopaths - we will learn that they jump too quickly to personal questions.
"choose to be around people you care about" What if you cannot choose? What to do then? Why we never get the answer to this question? What if you are stuck at job with toxic people? How to build immunity? How to handle criticism from them? What to do, how to speak how to act around them? Why socially anxious people never get answers to these questions from self help, therapist and official medical therapy for social anxiety - Classical CBT?
"I can allow myself to feel feelings" Ok. However what to do when there are toxic people at that party that ask intrusive questions? How to answer back in the correct manner? Why can't we get any information how to handle toxic people? We need that information. With social anxiety we do not know how to handle toxic people - who are true cause of social anxiety and who are triggering our social anxiety. Instead we get a bunch of non important information about our feelings and emotions - which create atmosphere of self-pathologizing - which is extremely unhealthy.
"Anxiety is not going to injure you" But toxic people will. Exposure to long term narcissistic abuse causes brain injury - literally. Google that.
"Anxiety loses its power" Anxiety was never the problem to begin with. This is invention by narcissistic medical community who never studied social anxiety - only shyness. The real problem - It is toxic people, narcissists, Machiavellians. We have no information how to deal with those and we are never acknowledged in our fears that we are injured by them nor we get any helpful information how to handle toxic people.
"Challenge cognitive distortions" Will lead to toxic shame. Bias, prejudices and oversimplifications are found in all people. This is not endemic to socially anxious people. If we convince ourselves that something natural is our fault, our invention and it happens only to us - we will destroy our self worth and we will create psychological damage- we will focus on other people to guide us, since we believe and make ourselves to believe that we have some distortions inside us, while supposedly apparently non socially anxious people do not have these. Horrible advice from classical CBT that actually causes social anxiety.
"shift your attention to other people" This is common myth and misconception from Classical CBT. Socially anxious people are already focused on other people. They are zoomed to them all the time, it is like the eye is on other person's cell, looking and observing them with microscope. That is how attention is already present on other people. This happens because social anxiety is part of complex trauma - being abused by untreated mentally ill people over long period of time, when we were learned through system of punishment, like Pavlovian dogs to seek approval and be focused on other people in order to please their narcissistic supply demand. Classical CBT's social anxiety postulates and result was based on faulty research in early 1990s where they made experiment and test with people who were shy. Shy people do not focus on other people at all. Socially anxious people do, due to trauma of being abused by toxic people.
"Just get them talk about themselves" This is very rude. We would then use them up as a dirty rag, to polish our anxiety and then throw them away after we are finished. People sense this and they are put off by this. Also, narcissists ask too many questions, intrusive ones - and many people will misinterpret our questions with being narcissist. If we are not genuinely interested in someone's somebody's life - it is better not to play pretend and dig ourselves into mud - since we will most probably forget anything they talked about - and they will be hurt when they realize that we never listened to them. Horrible advice from classical CBT.
"Beat yourself up after, overthinking" This is self-pathologizing our intelligence. It is like beating our own high IQ and ability to sort data as something irrelevant. Horrible advice from Classical CBT, filled with self hate, self aggression, neglect and self-invalidation - the same one we experienced with social abuse from toxic people that caused social anxiety in the first place.
Instead of Classical CBT advice and instruction (which are unfortunately default generic main therapy advice for social anxiety) I would rather encourage socially anxious people to try out Humanistic Therapies. Rogers. Rollo.
Classical CBT is equivalent to lobotomy, it is criminal and it should be banned.
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"In social anxiety disorder, ordinary encounters induce worry, self consciousness and discomfort" This is incorrect statement. What is the definition of "ordinary"? If ordinary means being in presence of kind, nice, non intrusive, genuinely altruistic and non narcissist person - there would be no worry, since this is psychological security setting. Socially anxious people feel worry self consciousness and discomfort when there is no clear indication that this is psychologically safe setting.
Let me put it in this way: what you do when you feel "worry, self consciousness and discomfort" in un-ordinary encounters? What you do then?
"Fear and anxiety cause avoidance in social anxiety disorder" Incorrect statement from Classical CBT which was based on faulty research about social anxiety in early 1990s. Trauma, toxic people cause avoidance in social anxiety disorder. There is real and tangible reason - it is not unknown nor mysterious, delusional or non existent. Classical CBT made research based on shy people and their result showed that "social Anxiety" was based on illusion. True socially anxious people would never subject themselves to any medical test about their social settings in era when there was no definition of social anxiety - mainly because they would never admit themselves to have any disorder - since we live in narcissistic society and narcissistic abuse set them up to ignore, neglect and never admit any disorder in the first place.
"changes, stress, or expectations" IT is toxic people. Why go around and never zero in to the only problem which caused social anxiety in the first place: it is toxic people. They are the only cause of changes, stress and expectations. They criticize and nag and nit pick our mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge and then we feel embarrassed, guilty and anxious - because of their unjust aggressive bias, prejudice and hidden agenda of manipulation.
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Good points! I was attacked and banned from main social anxiety forum at reddit - for the very same reaction - certain individuals labeled me as arrogant - for not being people pleaser. They somehow found to be offended, even when I never attacked them, I never said anything vulgar or rude to them - they were triggered about my words that appeared to strong for them. It is interesting phenomena. I learned that how we speak, how we appear does affect other people - where classical CBT explains us that we cannot control other people. We do, our words, our appearance does leave a mark and trail and effect on other people. The only difference is that toxic, narcissistic people use this to their own agenda and manipulation - and they mask it with love bombing and charm so it pass un-detected by unwitting people or codependents.
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Great information!
What bugs me is why Classical CBT is the accepted as official main default therapy for social anxiety and avoidance by medical community - where it totally ignores toxic people as the true and sole cause of that same anxiety and isolation? As if narcissist managed to get in managerial decision seat and keep socially anxious with poor mental health - since classical CBT will instruct socially anxious people seeking therapy that their anxiety is illusion without any cause.
I noticed that any bad experience with toxic people do not destroy us at all. It does not chip off our sensitivity. It does not destroy our capacity to function. Instead it sharpens our senses and ability to detect and notice toxic people. Then we get more careful and this safety mechanism cause us immobile, not faulty mechanism inside us. This is very complex and we convince ourselves that we are faulty by default and thus we create toxic shame inside us, additional and true damage - not trusting to our instinct nor our gut. This injures us, not toxic people.
With any bad experience, we get superpower: We can pick up red flags very easily, even to the point of sniffing out toxic person before they even prove to themselves they are toxic (power corrupts example - if/when they get into power seat they change their persona and become tyrannical).
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No, it is not weird at all. It (mapped into our nervous system through care) is logical and makes sense. This is the same as you write program for a computer and then run the software. It will behave as you programmed it. Nothing weird here, it would weird if we do not run the program, or if we behaved differently than what was programmed. That would mean some deeper issues or lost in translation - replacing words or actions with something third.
This lost in translation is interesting phenomena and it is actually painstakingly examined in philosophy in 20th century (Derrida, Claude Levi-Strauss, Roland Barthes, Heidegger, Wittgenstein, Ferdinand de Saussure).
For example, in English language rejection is commonly used for psychological explanation of social anxiety when society seems to hate you and think you are weird. For me, rejection means stonewalling and door slamming and cutting contact - and actually rejection would be great if toxic people rejected me so that I have no contact with them. Well, actually in English language psychological rejection means invalidation and crap fitting to tyranny of someone's shoulds.
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"You develop ability to float first" This is why Classical CBT is so damaging for socially anxious and avoidant folks. We are repeatedly being told that our anxiety and panic is imaginary and that there is not valid reason to feel uncomfortable. There is not explanation what to do when the threat is real and there are toxic people, how to handle them, no information at all - only self-pathologizing and invalidation of our trauma.
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Problem is that they are manipulative. So if you come with the spirit to face them, to resolve something, to confront them with their crimes - it will backfire. That is what makes them toxic. They do not play by the rules and they blame everyone else around them.
This means, they will nitpick, criticize and highlight your mistakes, flaws (internal or external) and your lack of knowledge as a proof that you are inept, abnormal, unacceptable, weird, stupid and that you owe them something. They turn tables and make you to be the toxic one. That is huge problem here and that is the topic.
IF you decide to "face" them - no matter what you do, it will be used against you. If you do not talk, they will accuse you of unfair things and your silence will be confirmation for them that you are guilty. That is what makes them toxic. They are mentally ill and aggressive. We are not dealing with normal human being here, they are zombies, evil incarnated.
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"In this context, ordinary means day to day general interactions with friends and family."
I would inspect those friends and family. For starters, socially anxious person does not have friends to begin with.
And for family, the breeding ground for Complex Trauma, I would inspect if there are narcissistic roles inside Dysfunctional Family Roles : Scapegoat, the Golden child, Enabler, The Lost Child. Therefore, social anxiety is not the prime problem, it never was. If there is social anxiety - there is toxic person on the other side which is in the dark and no one pays attention to the true cause of social anxiety.
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(31.5.2022)
@Shreya Sreenath "quality of perseverance" I think everyone has this inside them It is just that our brain is working with the tools it gots inside to work with. This noticed Maslow who said: in 1966, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat everything as if it were a nail".
This means, if we are surrounded by manipulative people, toxic people who appear as friends to us or who seem altruistic, they will sip into us false and wrong information and we will base our decisions on their false, fake and wrong information, believing they are doing in our best interest. That is what makes them so toxic. They do influence our thoughts, bias, clarity and energy - in negative ways. This is why it is important to develop ability to recognize them and cut them away from our lives, so that they do not influence us in bad ways.
In 2002, there was a The binary-ASCII code from Crabwood 2002 crop circle in England that left coded message: ""Beware the bearers of FALSE gifts & their BROKEN PROMISES. Much PAIN but still time. BELIEVE.There is GOOD out there""
I think this false information, false people is the message that we, nice people, need to learn. We are hypnotized into fear and submission by toxic people. So we think we have to be more patient, we have to be more of this, more of that - always something better, perfectionism and being scared of being wrong or mistaken or weak or nor approved or validated. This is toxic shame, inability to trust ourselves and that we must be hypervigilant and try to correct ourselves in order to be validated. That is toxic poison injected by toxic people into us - we have to get rid of this poison. We can do this only by starting to be aware that there is poison - that there are fake people out there who give us false information.
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"Don’t let the thoughts and opinions of others become your own thoughts and opinions"
This one is hard because of manipulation that appears as help to us: 1) toxic people target our mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge - all may be internal and/or external - and in this way they hypnotize us to feel toxic shame, embarrassment and vulnerable - and this makes us listen to others who appear perfect, without those mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge - and in this way they appear superior to us 2) we have urge to be healthy, good and without causing anyone hurt - and this health is used against us - this makes us extremely easy to be taken advantage of and we give power to manipulative, toxic people, narcissists and Machiavellians. We think we are doing good for shutting up, not standing up for ourselves, being silent, not rocking the boat when we make a mistake, when we have flaw or lack of knowledge - with the final goal to be friendly and to avoid jail or punishment or being abandoned. This happens quickly and we are not aware of this process why we in the end let other people explain us reality and give us instructions and many times we pre-emptively try to avoid punishment by accommodating others. And all we do it being healthy and doing the correct thing: to listen to others, to be patient and considerate, to give them benefit of doubt - this is exploited by toxic people. They found the loophole how to parasite on healthy organism and its defense mechanisms. We lack the knowledge how to recognize toxic people and to recognize this serious problem - how are we being manipulated by toxic people for us simply being civilized and normal and healthy.
We are being told that if we retort to toxic people that we have only two radical options: 1) be monster, fight, explosions and drama, being labelled as arrogant or 2) to be pushover, be silent and self-censor yourself. No one told us that there is alternative: to simply be authentic, speaking the truth and being transparent without being aggressive, rude or unkind about it. No one told us that mistakes are part of life and it is not our responsibility to make other people feel happy and it is not our job to fix their problems caused by us - when that problem was unintentional. No one told us that these problems will be constant and there is absolutely no way to remove them, avoid them nor pre-emptively destroy them from becoming reality.
We are being told that we must feel bad for mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge - and in the end this makes us hypnotized to care about what other people think.
This happens because media, government and society is intended this message for small percentage of people: psychopaths, radicals, narcissists, toxic people who have no empathy. This was their medicine to manually over-ride their lack of not having empathy nor conscience nor civility. We are being force fed messages that were not intended for us, it was not intended for the normal people who have functional amygdala and empathy and who have capacity to feel shame and guilt.
Thomas Hobbes said "Left to their own devices in a “state of nature”, people will inevitably kill each other. Life for everyone will soon become “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short”." "In a desperate attempt to escape from being murdered in their beds, Hobbes believed that selfish individuals would have to make a reciprocal “Social contract” with each other."
We, kind, nice, empathetic, sensitive people, are the victims of this Social contract. We are the collateral damage of system that was intended for restriction of crazy people out there: narcissists, Machiavellians, toxic people, psychopaths, sociopaths, parasites, energy vampires, borderliners. We are willing to cooperate, to listen to others, to agree, to be diplomatic, to live in peace and harmony, to avoid strife and drama, to avoid conflicts and to live without hidden agenda to hurt someone and to steal something from others - and this is exactly makes us to care what other people think.
So in life we will make mistake, flaw or others will feel the consequence of lack of our knowledge - and toxic people will punish us for these mistakes, flaws and ignorance - severely and brutally. And instead of defense - we will admit our wrongdoings and we will get trapped into loop cycle of worrying what other people think of us, seeking their advice, superior brain that has no apparent mistakes, flaws or ignorance, we will seek their validation.
The best example of this constriction is Classical CBT. People with social anxiety will encounter Classical CBT advice as default direction and rule how to manage your social anxiety. Classical CBT is accepted as the main and default therapy for Social anxiety. So Classical CBT will explain to you that your anxiety, phobia and fears are imaginary and that the threat you feel is abnormal and delusional. In the same time, it will offer no explanation or direction how to deal with toxic people. The only message will be directed at your symptoms and actions and "thwarted" thinking - even though all people have bias, prejudices and distorted thinking.
That is what happens to all people - we are manipulated and lied by manipulative, toxic people who are parasiting on our kindness and ability to feel shame and guilt. They rip of our healthiness off from our body and beat us up with it.
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"do something new and feel discomfort as result. Chosen or be required to be in uncomfortable situations."
I see toxic people as the only true cause and only problem that is behind any anxiety and panic. If you do something new or uncomfortable, the only thing that will make you feel fears and discomfort are critical, nagging, complaining, abusive, narcissistic people. The reason why we do not detect them (toxic people) is because they nitpick our mistakes, flaws (internal or external) and our lack of knowledge as our mistake and aggression against their entitlement - and they present our natural behaviour, actions and thoughts and opinions as pathology. Then we get anxiety and panic - for not being perfect, for not feeling safe and for being hypervigilant we will make something wrong and experience punishment from these unreasonable, mentally ill toxic people who are manipulating our sense of shame, guilt, empathy against ourselves.
For all people whos anxieties and fears are not related to toxic people's criticism - is a sign of mental illness and narcissism, where their egocentrism is causing them believe they are the centre of the universe and that their comfort is the primary engine motor for all universe which all people, objects and things must fawn over them to feel entitled. Like toxic people, these people have no ability to feel shame, embarrassment, guilt - and they are harassing other people around them in their entitlement hysteria.
For example, if you have driving phobia - it is fear of road rage and causing someone pain if you violate some rule by mistake. It is connected to toxic people - people in system who make roads too narrow so that they can save bucks for hookers or their cocaine abuse. In this case problem are toxic people and toxic system which is incapable to make safe environment due to corruption and low iq and lack of empathy.
Another example, if I have fear of heights - and if I demand others to accommodate me and my fears - I am the one who is toxic, since I expect the world to revolve around me and I am not being realistic. Again toxic person - which is me and my egocentrism.
We learn how to handle and manage problems in the world in our environment. Chances are - if we feel anxiety, panic and fears - that is red flag that we were exposed to untreated toxic mentally ill person who gave us toxic instructions and toxic programming to feel anxiety and fears and panic. It is not our own choosing - unless we are egocentric and narcissist, toxic ourselves.
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Yeah! There is you tube channel "TheraminTrees". Check his videos, he is talking about the same thing you are talking in his video Double bind. The author of that channel was in group education for therapist and he talks about how the group was instructed to make money of their patients by ignoring their progress. In his video he states how any action can be labeled as "crazy" and "abnormal" - hence Double bind phenomena. This information is mind blowing - and it made me realize that classical CBT is instructing socially anxious people to be more socially anxious by pathologizing their symptoms.
And I've googled that double bind can lead to schizophrenia. There is information that when we are exposed to conflicting information where anything we choose will be bad - can cause mental illness. That is what classical CBT is doing to people with social anxiety. They claim that your anxiety is fictious and that you must expose yourself to toxic people in order to get immunity. Totally wrong and incorrect information that I have believed in for 20 years. All self help books and official online resources about social anxiety are based on Classical CBT. I was left with people pleasing issues and hypervigilance, trapped in avoidance and self-censorship without knowing what is wrong with me...
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(1.6.2022)
There is no mentioning of toxic people who are crucial reason for keeping inferiority complex ongoing. Instead of proposed "healing" tips which involve pathologizing own feelings and emotions which are natural reaction to abnormal trauma caused by untreated mentally ill people - the healing tips ought to be directed in direction of toxic people: how to recognize them, how to retort, how to cut contact, how to be authentic and honest without drama explosions or fawning and self-censorship. Also, There is no mention of toxic shame which is inferiority complex. There is no mention of external reference locus of control which is byproduct of toxic shame: trauma bonding and seeking approval from others, it is not only giving up own needs. It is being slave to other person in the fear of their punishment (usually their hysteria).
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Amazing information. This is missing from Classical CBT therapy where the instruction from official medical community and self help books by official medical resources explain to you that your symptoms of anxiety are problem. That when you feel panic in this kinds of situation, they explain these feelings are problem and that you are imagining toxic people. That it is all in your imagination. That is why this part if crucial to be aware of: "Someone who is not healthy will become upset. When someone gives me pushback, they had agenda in mind. These usually are people who are takers. They want to take advantage, looking to manipulate you."
I would focus on toxic people here. The problem we will encounter will be related to our own mistakes, internal (our) or external (related to something that is associated with) flaws and/or our lack of knowledge - that they will blame our mistakes, flaws and ignorance as the catastrophe - and this way they will impose shame and guilt upon us - where we will shut up, self-censor ourselves and we will be pushover - we will go along with their agenda. So not only that we need to be aware that there are toxic people, parasites out there (Machiavellians, narcissists, emotional vampires, borderliners) - that they use our supposed responsibilities and obligations against ourselves.
They are pulling our need and urge to be helpful and to make no harm to anyone against us. They are pulling our strings of empathy and healthy functional amygdala - which allows us to put ourselves in other people's shoes, we feel shame, guilt and embarrassment when things we do not go along and they may cause some damage to someone. That part if extremely important to understand - because if we do not understand this, we will develop social anxiety and inferiority complex and toxic shame - and toxic people will abuse us. The truth is: 1) there will always be blunders. We will always make mistakes. This goes along with any action and 2) no one can be perfect, perfectionism is route to mental imbalance. We cannot do things without mistakes.
With toxic shame and abuse and complex trauma we (pushovers, people pleasers, fawning as default reaction) are programmed, we are injected with automatic belief that we are not allowed to make mistakes, and if mistake occur that we will be faced with brutal punishment that is unbearable, and that it is catastrophe - that it is proof we are not valid nor worthy as person. So our identity, persona is fused with belief that we are only worthy if we are subservient, silent and nice. This is due to exposure to relentless criticism 24/7 when growing up, we were exposed to toxic person, narcissist, untreated mentally ill person. Long term exposure to narcissistic abuse causes brain injury - google it. We were traumatized into being pushover, trained like circus animal or Pavlovian dog.
So someone pushover is signal that this person was exposed to toxic, mentally ill person in their life over long period of time, usually in childhood where we never had chance to develop our self worth, our persona, our identity. Instead we developed toxic shame and inferiority complex. Narcissists and toxic people were also abused - however they consciously decided to manage life by abusing other people, they lower their anxiety and wound and injury by deliberately blaming, criticizing, nagging and complaining about other people around them.
As adults we will attract such people in our lives making it loop and cycle of codependency: seeking approval and validation and expecting punishment from others if we fail to be perfect.
I see solution to pushover - as suggested in video: 1) to learn about toxic people, learn about narcissism so that we know how these people think and 2) to learn to retort to them, and to cut contact whenever possible.
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Partially agree. Being pushover is part of empathy. I would not throw it away or pathologize it. Being diplomatic, showing concern, going half the way, not insisting to be our way all the time, not being antagonistic is part of interdependence. Going to another extreme of the same spectrum - will make us narcissistic. This is why assertive videos are not helpful - just imagine how difficult and toxic are people who are constantly expressing their opinions and dislikes about everything: being over-opinionated.
This is actually problem with narcissistic society that we live. We are being told by media, marketing and toxic people that we have either two choices in life: 1) to be number 1 or 2) to fawn.
There is alternative though. We can be number one and still care for other people. We can disagree people without explosions and wars and drama.
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"Narcissists ask questions they already know the answers to. It’s a way of baiting you into a quick response. I like the stop and not giving them an answer. "
Yep! However this is hard: "I like the stop and not giving them an answer. " This is because they are highly manipulative. They will trigger our mistakes - and we will feel guilty and we will have to obey them since we are flawed and ignorant. Second, they exploit our urge to be helpful to society and that we do our tasks without harming anyone. Since mistakes are natural part of any action - literally any action in this world - we will consequently make a mistake. That is where they parasite upon. They find sweet spot to suck energy: 1) person who has healthy dosage of shame 2) mistake that this person does 3) wants compensation for supposed our transgression.
So - we need to become lawyers, we have to develop self-advocacy - and see and study and experiment and scientifically evaluate our transgressions: are they really so bad, were they only our own fault, and we have to show that we have no ill will or evil agenda to hurt someone with our mistakes, flaws and ignorance that toxic people will present as catastrophe and a proof of our invalidity as person.
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As I understand a lot of people are being misdiagnosed as Borderline. The same thing for social anxiety. All symptoms of social anxiety overlap with CPTSD. And shyness only partially overlaps with social anxiety. Yet Classical CBT was based for therapy for shy people, not socially anxious ones. I was instructed by Classical CBT (which includes formal self help books) to expose. I ended up being pushover, people pleaser and with fawning - since no one explained me that the root problem was programming in childhood, exposure to criticism 24/7 when I was growing up, and that I developed fear of making mistakes - which are proof of my worthiness and ineptness if I make them. No one explained me (which psychology ought to) that mistakes are normal part of any action and that toxic people exploit and manipulate people who are afraid. This information is totally hidden from official therapy and official resources. Official therapy totally ignores toxic people as any factor that is related to anxiety - and instead it pathologizes person's symptoms of panic and anxiety. This approach of Classical CBT is extremely damaging to psyche.
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"stay firm and correct anyone how violates your boundaries." I learned that toxic people exploit our own mistakes, flaws and ignorance as proof that we are inept and that we are actually the ones who hurt them and caused them terrible pain and hurt- and therefore we must fawn to them, be silent and obey their orders to correct our transsgressions.
Also due to complex trauma (being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when growing up) we were programmed to believe that we are not allowed to make mistakes, to be perfectionist - and if we do make mistakes that it is proof that we are not valid as person.
So the lesson we were not taught in childhood - is that any action we take will be full of mistakes - and that we are allowed to make mistakes, and that no one is perfect. And that we pay attention to people who are overstepping and how are hysterical about our mistakes. Toxic people will try to trigger our shame and guilt to serve them and that we pay them off for our mistakes. We need to evaluate our mistakes and take self-advocacy - and realize that we are being manipulated by toxic people, manipulators, narcissists, Machiavellians, energy vampires.
We can be honest and speak the truth, admit our mistakes - without drama, without wars and without explosions - and if possible cut contact with nagging, critical and over.demanding high maintenance people.
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"our thoughts and behavior contribute to psychological issues" What about toxic people? Does toxic people have no ability to affect our psychological issues?
"if change how we think, and change how we act, we can change our emotions and how we feel and treat issues and symptoms" Ok, but..what if you are in close contact with dangerous and criminal person? If you ignore red flags, intuition and discomfort and label it as pathology - you will stay stuck with this person. That is not much helpful therapy.
"Mindfulness" Yet, there is something called Self-absorption paradox and it causes more damage than good: "The self-absorption paradox describes the contradictory association whereby higher levels of self-awareness are simultaneously associated with higher levels of psychological distress and with psychological well-being. Wikipedia"
"Observing what we are doing" Yet, there is something called observation paradox: "Observer bias occurs when we alter what we see, either by only noticing what we expect or by behaving in ways that have influence on what occurs. Without intending to do so, researchers may encourage certain results, leading to changes in ultimate outcomes." Which means we get stuck in observing, not in living our lives. We are guided by our anxiety (caused by toxic people) and we focus on anxiety as the only thing in our life, as oppose to have goals, task and dreams to live.
"We can influence our emotions and how we feel" Yet, toxic people can influence our dysregulation which is different from emotional dysregulation. So, if I do anything with my emotions, if I am in presence of toxic person - all of these will be triggered and dysregulated.
"strong negative emotions, learn to accept what is going around us without demanding to be different" Ok, but what happens when we are in the presence of toxic person, narcissist, Machiavellian, energy vampire - where they nitpick, criticize our mistakes, flaws, ignorance?
"While we work on making them better" Ok, what happens when this same toxic person is criticizing your work to make it better?
"Getting through crisis without making things worse" What I discovered is that our need to avoid and be afraid of something not being perfect and if it is going to be labeled as worse is what drives fears, anxiety and hypervigilancr. Let me put it this way: who is the person who is defining that something is worse? If we do the absolutely correct thing, toxic person will label us as arrogant - so we will believe their diagnosis? This ends up as double binding - whatever we do it is in the end worse.
The true problem are toxic people. It is not our symptoms. If we pathologize our symptoms, we will destroy our self worth and create toxic shame. The basic thing is - if we have no ill will, if we do not wish to harm anyone, if we have no sick and criminal desire inside us to hurt other people in any way - there is basically nothing wrong with us. Fears and anxiety we feel are caused by toxic, unreasonable people who put unrealistic perfectionist standards upon us, triggering our sense of shame, guilt and obligation.
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" I suffer from borderline personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder" A lot of people do get misdiagnosed. IF you are aware of what narcissism and borderline is, and you are aware of negative effect, chances are you are not narcissist nor borderliner. They never seek treatment and they don't care about others.
I trust that medical community sometimes does more damage than good when labelling other people and jumping to quick diagnosis. Narcissism is on the same spectrum as someone having issues with people pleasing. They all come from broken dysfunctional environment full of hate. It is only that some people choose to respond to their trauma either by abusing others or abusing themselves. I would guess since this is a spectrum - that a) you could be somewhere in the middle and or b) you might shift the spectrum depending on age or life circumstances?
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I agree, but I would warn you about problem with diagnosis and labelling - it could lead you astray. Check out anti-psychiatry concepts, too in order to get full picture.
The problem with human behavior is that any, virtually any action can be pathologized. This is called double binding. Whatever you do - will be wrong. This is sweet spring to extract from for manipulators.
If you find time, study more and keep on mind Confirmation bias - that you will find confirmation everywhere, it is criticism that is important to investigate. If I tell you that people get misdiagnosed, I am speaking from my experience with people who claimed this. I would not reject their experience as invalid. Some therapist make money on making fake diagnosis, unfortunately narcissists can be find in the medical community, too (altruistic narcissists). They will profit from your misery and keeping you stuck in unhealthy loops.
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(3.6.2022)
Yep, that is conditioning, like circus animals or Pavlovian dogs. There was punishment in age when our brain was developing, when we were suppose to develop our persona, personality, form our character - we were punished when we expressed our dislike - which is the basis for self-worth- We were invalidated when expressed our likes. This is the same equivalent of being shaken as baby when our bones are still plastic and not formed. Now we suffer from panic, anxiety, hypervigilance, triggers and flashbacks, emotional dysregulation, general dysregulation, fawning, self censorship...as the result of punishment.
What is the worse, you have prominent mentors like Jordan Peterson who is instructing young people to be monsters, to show teeth, he instructs young parents to punish and discipline their kids. As if there are no alternatives: either we can pick wars&explosions or passivity&immobility to deal with anything in life. As if there is no alternative. We live in sick society.
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"Every time you ask for something they don't want you to have, they will punish you because the punishment is painful. You then think before the next time you ask for something similar because you don't want to be punished again and then there will be a point that you actually stop asking for what you want because you know that it's not worth the punishment so you have been conditioned to stop a behaviour."
Now imagine you live in toxic shame culture - where due to corruption, people in power are lazy and ignorant of their work. So you go through education system, healthy system, service system - where you want to learn something, where you need check up and where you need papers done - and you meet with hysteria: yelling, screaming just for your needs and wants that are everyday activity. You need information how to drive a car - but the instructor is screaming and yelling at your smallest mistake. And you can't press charges and sue him because the country is corrupt, judicial system is corrupt and does not handle this "non important" transgressions where you pay for learning how to drive and you are showered with hysterical yelling and screaming for not knowing how to drive, where you are learning how to drive in the first place. Or when you have health condition and the nurse is hysterical and refuse you to enter the room to do check in, where the system is corrupt and check ups last for weeks, and where the service due to ignorance and idiocy does not help you at all - for example they have no idea about allergy so they think it is some disease, or the doctor in charge decide that the symptom is not dangerous and send you home - while it really is. Or where you need bunch of papers to get in corrupt system that does not know the procedure. I was being told by the bank for my first job that I cannot open account because I was not employed the full time - where the firm where I worked had only contract with that bank and none - so you are put in double bind situations in toxic environment. Where your only option is to fawn, since anything you do, say will be met with hysteria, yelling and screaming in toxic environment. In the same time, Classical CBT will explain after you develop social anxiety as the response to double binding that anxiety you feel is delusional and that there are no toxic people out there. So Classical CBT adds up to double binding - where your natural reaction to punishment, hurt, pain, hysteria - is being said it is illusion and you ought to expose yourself to toxic people in order to "magically" heal - that you witness criminal behaviour and somehow does not feel Moral injury. Classical CBT is default therapy in medical community and most self help books are based on classical CBT, where your trauma and exposure to toxic people is being invalidated.
I learned by myself that there is a way how to handle and manage this double bind situations with toxic people. First is being aware that they are toxic. Trauma and narcissistic environment will explain to us that we are the cause of problem and blame ourselves. Second is cutting contact and going away wherever possible. Codependency programmed inside us will make us believe we must depend on "strong" people. They are not strong. They are sick, deprived, lazy and uncaring. Third is in situations where we cannot escape - that we learn how to retort and expose their criminal behaviour: narcissists hate transparency, truth and honesty. This means document their abuse if long term and speaking out, voicing out their transgressions, even if our voice is shaking.
When I was learning to drive, I told my instructor after days of verbal abuse - that I cannot drive when he is screaming. He throw me out in the street and drove off! He called couple of days later, without apology to appoint the day to continue, but he did not scream again in the same intensity. He punished me / charged me with additional hours.
At my job, when I confronted my boss that her meddling in my personal life is not correct, I was pretty soon transferred to another job and then quit. I am still without work two years later.
So there will be consequences when we stand up for ourselves, especially when we are faced with sociopaths who cannot handle critic or no or any kind of opposition.
What lacks from any helpful resource is how to handle and manage toxic people in correct manner. This is because there is no correct way. We will be punished when we break the matrix. We will lose our jobs, we will lose our stability and comfort. We will lose something, we will lose. So natural suggestion is that we prepare for the worse - gather money, plan relocation, built self worth intrinsic locus of control, learn about narcissistic abuse facts, such as this video. Classical CBT will pathologize our thoughts for example catastrophizing as proof we are distorted, so I would work on awareness that there are deception out there even from "formal" sources, and wrong advice out there leading us astray (you tube videos about people pleasing are full of toxic shame that actually create more fawning). Anything except acceptation and love is sign it is toxic as some level.
I like this statement from video: "A lot of bullies and manipulators are actually cowards. Once you get strong enough to stand up for them you start to see they've always been more afraid."
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I agree Labels disable. However labels are the only way to light the dark and see where we are. Sometimes if we convince ourselves - we will create delusions, and labels can lead to self prophecy. It can lead to misdiagnosis and we can end up in the wrong alley, stuck. And if we are egocentric - we will reject and even not be aware that there are different angles, dimensions out there that have different landscape than the ones we are viewing life from. So if I accept other people's views - it will be bad. If I reject other people's views - it will be bad. IT is double binding. The correct path would be that we are open to everyone without trying to change other people - and nobody is teaching us this healthy way of thinking.
From my experience, codependency concept helped me a lot to learn how to handle issues that blocked me and confused me. Karpman Drama Triangle was huge revelation for example.
And there are complex issues: there are people who like to help other people, yet in the some situations my fear of being punishment is behind this help due to Complex trauma experience (being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when growing up and adult hysteria which child brain was not able to process other than developing immature ego defense mechanisms). And this urge to help due to potential punishment can influence my desire to help others - which is codependency.
So I see solution - to be pragmatic. If some information is helping you, great. If you do not see value in it, if you do not see change for better - perhaps we need to seek further what is bugging us. The question is: did you get irritated by having issue or by learning that some people are labelling your servitude and good manners as codependency?
If you have irritations because you might suspect your kindness is taken for weakness, it is good to notice and learn concepts such as self worth and intrinsic locus of control. But if we react to other people and their unfair statements - it means we are reacting to something and it is worth to study and analyze it.
Because as you stated in your video - we may be labelled wrongly by other people because our behavior may overlap with their definitions of pathology. I see if we believe others, if their words affect us - when their wrong interpretations bug us - that this is a sign of codependency on some level, because we actually want to change other people. And that is codependency itself. We believe other people are superior even if we won't admit it. When we resist to something, it will persist, it will grow stronger with time.
So it depends how much you are bothered by other people's labels and wrong conclusions? The point is: if we have self worth, if we have intrinsic locus of control. we won't be bugged by other people's diagnosis and comments and wrong definitions nor their conclusions. However if we are feeling hurt by their statements which we feels as wrong - and if we have desire to change these people so that they change their mind - this is codependency.
This is where it gets really complex. There are people who are toxic, manipulative and Machiavellian. There are sociopaths and psychopaths out there who feel good when they make other people nervous and irritated. Being codependent or not - if we are exposed to these people, to their abuse long term, we will develop codependency issues, they will train us like circus animals or Pavlovian dogs to develop codependency. They are sick, they are manipulative and they do not operate from the same goals and desires as healthy population - so their gaslighting, control and manipulation will be extremely hard to detect and left to our own devices how to handle these untreated mentally ill people will most likely end up as codependency. This happens because toxic people target our natural healthy need to be helpful, servile and nice and civil against ourselves. This also happens in politics and marketing and media will brainwash us into addictions not to realize how to break the matrix. In the end, we live in sick narcissistic society - which is based on accumulating material things and ignoring spiritual needs. Corporations are literally poisoning and exploiting our planet and nature. And that is codependency itself. Toxic people simply run their selfish desires, exploit people so that they can sniff cocaine and have sex with minor as Trump did, while others, normal people collect garbage after them, picking up plastics and save energy. As society we are in codependent relationship with psychopaths in managerial, management positions.
Sick people like Trump or Putin will simply hypnotize the masses that honor and threat are the main focus for your life, they will trigger your fears and safety, and you will believe them.
In the end, I see codependency as reaction to toxic people. If we have toxic, unreasonable, difficult person in our midst, we will most likely become codependent without knowing it, since they are so terrific in manipulation.
And our only protection is education and learning about codependency and how to heal trauma and make better healthier choices in life without being codependent to toxic people who appear as strong, superior, and competent to us.
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"Enablers are hurting not helping."
Yet, we cannot control other people. As healthy non-narcissistic people we cannot manipulate others how to think and feel and what to do. Urge to control other people is cognitive distortion, need to take care and fix others is codependency.
If we cannot cut contact with abusive person, we will become enabler and codependent - if we strive for being civil. I do not see shaming the healthy people here as helpful here.
If you choose to take responsibility for someone who is abusive and addict, and employ techniques to "heal" them and fix them, you will be inside codependent Karpman Drama Triangle and most likely develop borderline issues (being hysterical and malignant), they will drag you into mental illness.
Addict will never change their addiction if they do not want to.
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If someone is antagonistic, talking will not help. It is doomed to be cut right away. The problem is how to handle and manage toxic people whom we cannot cut contact with. Due to service, help, finances, shelter, job, obligations etc sometimes we cannot walk away, or at least not for some time. The information that people who need to stand up for themselves - there is no information what to do then. How to handle and manage toxic people. And in the end, it is said that we can never run away from our problems. As Oprah said, they will re-appear in another set of trousers.
I realized that there is almost no information to this question: How to handle toxic people when you cannot leave them.
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"Ability to say no and not feel guilty about." This is interesting, since people pleasers will think their aura will dim if they do not fix other people and their emotions and their problems. As if declining obligation will dim our aura.
"Every time you have to repeat the lesson, it gets worse." I have noticed that it is not necessarily worse - it is only that we are now highly aware that this is toxic and we can pick up more details about its toxicity, how people are manipulative and we are more aware how it will end when they abuse us without us doing anything about it, just witnessing criminal and being immobile and passive, which is the definition of concept called Moral injury - which is traumatic, painful and it sticks inside us as toxic shame and irrational guilt. With every abuse you get more sensitive and more aware, more wiser, more intelligent about the potential hurt developing - with now having super-ability of being able to see it in advance.
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"what’s misdiagnose mean?"
It means your perception, your definition, your truth, your views, your perspective. Sometimes we get this distorted, especially when we need to being quick decision or when emotions are heightened. All people are prone to biases, prejudices, logical fallacies and wrong conclusions which are basically misdiagnosis. We simply diagnose someone to be evil or bully - Narcissists do this when they don't have it their way. They diagnose someone who says no to them or speaks criticism - they diagnose the other person as bully and see their words as personal attack since it triggers their own narcissistic injury (wearing a mask of superiority).
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"being nice can start being negative thing when it's something we do to avoid disappointing others or to live up to an ideal image that we've been conditioned to believe exists" Almost got it. Why don't you speak the truth - problem are toxic people. Narcissist, manipulators, emotional vampires, maniacal borderliners, parasites, Machiavellians. Good healthy people will respect your decline. They will not be antagonistic, they will not make drama about it. You simply ignore the fact that there are untreated mentally ill people who are aggressive, criminals. Instead, you blame and place toxic shame onto person who feels as people pleaser - which is reaction to toxic person who is entitled and can't take no for answer.
IF we do not label toxic people, we won't recognize them, we will miss red flags. There is nothing wrong with us. If you self pathologize yourself and start to nitpick and fix something "broken" inside that is not broken - you will create incredible psychological damage, you will end with depression, anxiety, hypervigilance, pureOCD issues.
Just say it - don't be afraid - there are jerks out there. There are criminals out there. There are toxic people out there. they are the real problem. Not our inner voice, not our boundaries, not anything about us. We are not guilty. We are not broken. We have nothing to fix.
Self pathologizing is always terrible idea and it is horrible how you tube and online is so easy resource for people to get wrong and detrimental messages packaged as good advice and well meaning instruction.
"Be direct and learn how to say no" What you do when this person throws temper tantrum. What if this person is highly manipulative? What if this person is accusing your of unfair things masked as your mistakes, flaws and ignorance? What if they turn they back and walk away and thus they do not listen to you? What if you cannot cut contact with them? What happens when you depend on some resource that this person is holding? What then? Why we never get answer to these real life issues - we only get self blame and self pathologizing. Again, you are self-pathologizing someone's ability to communicate - while the only and true problem are toxic people, criminal, narcissists, Machiavellians who manipulate others to take advantage of others.
"How you can improve" IF we are kind and nice - there is absolutely nothing to improve. If we have ability to put ourselves in other people shoes and feel empathy - we are superior to large portion of egocentric population. Self-pathologizing is horrible approach, stop it.
"Let go of toxic people" ok. What to do when you can't? For whatever reason. What to do when they do not listen to you and you cannot reason with them? What then? People who have issue with people pleasing need answer to these questions. Everyone knows letting go and cutting contact is normal and healthy thing to do as reaction to toxic people.
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" I have been bullied my whole life I made a promise to myself that I wouldn’t be like those who tried to hurt me"
Me too. But I learned - actually I am learning now - that there is a difference what is kindness.
If we try to be kind to everyone, we will attract toxic people like moth to a flame. They can sniff out us like dogs, they are predatory,, like animals.
The problem with being bullied - it sets us up to develop codependency. They hurt our mental health and they twist our perceptions. This means - we will try to over.compensate by being nice and kind. This in turn will twist our reality - and we will equate being honest and authentic with being rude. Also, it will make us believe that we have only two options in life to deal with difficult people: 1) to engage in wars, explosions and drama or 2) to be immobile and passive and to fawn. While in reality there is alternative. Voicing out the elephant in the room without drama. Speaking up and advocating our rights by pinpointing trespass and transgression of evil people. When we are bullies, codependent and scared - we will believe that if we speak up the truth and define evil doings of toxic people - we will believe that this makes us bully and evil. Nope. That belief is trauma and it will cause us to become people pleasers and pushover.
When we are bullied we will create a plethora of twisted, wrong and distorted beliefs about life and our self worth. We have to be aware of this. Naturally we will try to heal our wounds by being nice and kind -and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. However being nice and kind can stretch. With being bullies we see being nice and kind as very limited and narrow option - that we always must be chirpy and happy and smiley and that we are not allowed to show our true emotions nor that we are allowed to make mistakes and be undone. This will attract toxic people into our life who will parasite on our distorted, wounded beliefs.
We need to recognize our wrong beliefs and correct them.
For example, until couple of weeks ago I was convinced that I must never block or mute someone on Twitter. That I have to be caring person who shows care by tolerating someone's abuse and vulgarity and antagonism. Reality is that we can block and retort people and still care for them - by cutting them out of our lives and never seeing them again. :D
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@Katherine Norland I am starting to realize that if we are in a situation where we need to stand up for ourselves - that this is actually a red flag that there is toxic person on the other side.
Normal, kind, healthy people will cooperate, this process will go automatically. There will be no antagonism, and other person will not have hidden agenda, desire to exploit nor they have sadistic urge to hurt others and then enjoy in it.
Normal, kind, healthy person will step back and allow us to have our own way. We won't take advantage of this and we will not demand to be right and correct nor have it our way all the time, 24/7. There is simple a balance in relationship, like yin yang. This really works when people have no hidden agenda, when they are not evil and when there is no psychopathy.
I trust that our task in life is to recognize toxic people and learn how to handle and manage them in healthy manner that is functional and fair - and that we plan to cut contact with them as soon as possible. Toxic people are energy drainers and they steal focus and energy from us - which ought to be directed to ourselves and people who deserve our empathy and sensitivity.
Toxic people will trap us into Karpman Drama Triangle, where we are like in a court, always proving and standing up for ourselves and be hypervigilant all the time. With complex trauma, we grew up in such environment and it will be hard to realize for people pleasers and nice people that there are normal relationships out there, without drama and explosions.
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"you leave." What if you can't? For whatever reason. What then, Einstein? People who are seeking help for people pleasing are not so dumb that they did not already tried to leave. They need information how to handle toxic people when you cannot leave them. Due to job, due to finances, due to resources, due to help, due to obligations, due to third parties, due to children, due to toxic poor country where you cannot find another job within 2 years and your living expenses barely cover minimal wage if anything. What then? People cannot get information what then. Instead they are met with "I don't care about you" "It is your fault" self blame, pathologizing and blaming the victim for abuse. That is just abuse on top of the abuse. Please stop being egocentric and grow up.
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"this is child abuse. you leave" What if you can't leave?
Also as Oprah said - you cannot run away from your problems. They will simply re-appear in another set of trousers.
We need information how to handle toxic people in healthy and functional manner, in situations when you cannot leave them. Please leave your fantasy world aside and grow up and enter adult life - where you are stuck with toxic people. And try to find answer what we do when we can't leave.
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(6.6.2022)
"Confidence is a by-product of action." What happens when action is met with manipulation? And when you are in toxic environment where your action is mocked, attacked, criticized for your mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge? And you grew up in complex trauma environment where you were programmed to feel irrational guilt (trained like circus animal or Pavlovian dog) whenever you make a mistake, flaw or ignorance?
"You must re-train your brain to see the world differently." Ok, so what happens when you are in the same room with a serial killer. And uncomfortable feelings rise up, anxiety and social discomfort. Do you retrain your instinct and gut to ignore it? What happens when you are in the same room with a narcissists - more common type of psychopath. Do you ignore your feelings telling you to cut contact especially when there is none of obligation to form any type of contact with that person?
"Social anxiety is a perception that there is something lacking in you and, therefore, people won’t like you" That is not true. Social anxiety is trauma from being exposed to toxic people. It is picking up clues so now you have excellent sense to pick up the clues extremely quickly other people's toxicity.
"Social anxiety is the feeling that you don’t deserve the love." That is not true. All beings are prone to seek satisfaction and move away from discomfort. The trouble with growing up in toxic environment that our definitions about what is love was never defined through healthy prism.
Toxic people are the only problem here. If we pathologize our social anxiety, we will feel worse.
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" my mind still often wants to be socially anxious but I see it as my choice what to do about it." This leads to pureOCD. If you react to anxiety, you build up more anxiety. Any reaction to anxiety will create more anxiety. The question here is why you react? If we look deeply - the obvious answer is that we were traumatized and hurt by people - and now this is a wound, injury inside us. When you have sore spot on your body, you will be very sensitive and you will feel more pain if you hurt it at the same spot again. The same thing happens with social anxiety. Instead of being obsessed about hurt and pain - which are totally normal reactions when you are injured - the more creative, helpful and constructive goal would be to find out what happened that injured you. How can you help yourself for not getting injured again: how can you protect yourself other than avoidance and run away. Perhaps there are some other ways, too?
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Parents are obvious culprit here. AS children, emotional wellbeing is the same as physical one. Usually in dysfunctional homes we get physical shelter however we do not experience love and validation. The equivalent to invalidation is if you shake baby - baby cannot withstand the pressure of being physically attacked. The same way our emotions are developing in childhood. If we are shaken by invalidation, there will be injury - since it happens in times when our persona is developing. It still has not solid core to withstand being exposed to adult hysteria, constant and relentless criticism, nagging and complaining and being exposed to invalidation.
"and I’m ruining their day" Yep - that is is. When we are in toxic environment we are taught to be parents to our parents in dysfunctional environments. We as kids are taught to serve and cater for our parent's feelings. We are taught to take care of their emotions and make them feel pleasant, we learn that our role in life is to regulate emotions of other people. In normal and healthy environments you are a child that is allowed to express yourself. You do not self-censor yourself in order to protect yourself from anger and punishment of narcissistic parent who is borderline and cannot centre themselves and emotionally regulate their adult emotions. That is not healthy if we as children have to parent our parents.
"Please give me some advice " The point is that we know what is going on and that we become our own advice givers. When we grew up in environment where we must cater emotions of authority figure - we will grow up being codependent and trauma bond with other people. This means we will attract toxic people who are similar to dynamics we grew up with - usually alcoholic and addicts and borderliners. The one constant here are toxic people. Our social anxiety is ability to detect toxic people and toxic behaviour. So - our goal is to trust ourselves - and this means to trust your own social anxiety as well. The education is your way to re-parent yourself. That you learn what healthy means. You cannot learn it by yourself what is healthy - if you were programmed in childhood to be unhealthy and surrounded with toxic behaviour. Check out psychology books, learn about Complex Trauma, dysfunctional childhoods, so that you can detect what is toxic. Learn about narcissism and narcissistic abuse - so that you can learn to detect toxic people and learn how to retort to them. This way you will trust yourself and build self worth. When we are in toxic environment, the first thing that is attacked is our self worth. The point of virus is that it takes control of your body. When you doubt yourself, you are much easily target for manipulators who seek control and see you as narcissistic supply that will regulate their emotions and being a punching bag when they feel down. Social anxiety is like our inner GPS that help us detect toxic environment and toxic people. The point of toxic people is that we are slaves to them, that we do not know what love is and that we are zombies to them, servants. Toxic people do not know how to lead and manage healthy life. Instead they depend on slaves to provide regulation for them. Social anxiety is ability to detect these Machiavellian narratives, it is red flag to recognize when we are in danger of such exploitative people. Now - that is better than self-pathologizing your social anxiety as your fault and deep toxic shame proof that you are abnormal and different from others who supposedly do not have social anxiety - because they build up narcissistic mask of superiority and appear confident in order to impress and control socially scared people.
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"will 30 mins visualisation daily help my social Anxiety"
No. Social anxiety is red flag that you are in the presence of manipulators. Manipulators manipulate - their whole purpose in life is to trick people and to wear mask so that no one recognize them as toxic. Our social anxiety sees through that mask. It is like having an x-ray vision. Why would you get rid of it? If you self-pathologize your abilities as something to get rid of, you will destroy your self worth in the process - and you will depend on toxic people to guide you and to handle problems in life, you will make yourself codependent to them - because you will be convinced that your discomfort and anxiety is proof that you are abnormal and unworthy, damaged and different from "normal" people.
Instead of 30 mins visualizations, help your anxiety in the process of discovering and learning how to handle toxic people and how to uncover dark psychology behind manipulators (also called Machiavellians). Learn how to handle narcissistic abuse. There are amazing resources here on You tube - DrRamani, Lisa Romano, practically any narcissistic abuse video is amazing resource, the supportive community is great on you tube for learning about narcissism.
See if it helps - rather than self pathologizing and distrusting your own feelings and emotions of hurt, pain, fear and discomfort. If you hurt your finger when you hit it with hammer, the pain is natural. You are suppose to feel it. It is abnormal to visualize that you do not feel pain anymore in life. Pain is our teacher to learn how to protect ourselves from future pain, how to get better at skills how to use hammer. The point of pain is not that you become neurotic and try to avoid it and run away from it. You run away from self harm, and to learn how to handle life in better and more quality way that will avoid pain in the future - by knowing better, not by rejecting it and ignoring it.
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" When im around people my own age I feel inferior. They have more friends more life experience" Excellent question. On target.
See it like this: 1) healthy friends would not make you feel inferior, they would not toxically ashame you, they would accept you and validate you 2) unhealthy friends would mock you and make fun of you. they would use toxic shame as a way for you to take action and force yourself to exploit other people around you, to become parasite and abuser, narcissist who feels entitled to have any girl - as a trophy you use to showcase around others.
Confidence is paradox. IF you try to overcompensate and to pretend to be something you are not, if you do not like girls or loud parties - if you force yourself to pretend to be something you are not in order to get recognition and approval from others - you will never get it. Confidence and self worth comes only when you accept yourself as you are, with your "mistakes", flaws and ignorance. If you are not evil person, if you do not wish ill will to others, if you do not have hidden agenda to hurt and cause pain to others nor to exploit them - the confidence is inside you already, you just have to claim it.
People hate truth and transparency. They feel cognitive dissonance when their beliefs are challenged. Toxic people especially hate the truth. Chances are if you are unable to express yourself and be who you truly are, that you are surrounded by toxic people - and it is best to cut contact with them. The right people will show up - only when we change our own definitions of what is healthy and acceptable, and when we start to divide people on toxic and healthy ones.
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"What if the anxiety gets worse the more you take action?" Excellent point! I took classical CBT advice of exposure - and I ended up being pushover, people pleaser and fawning to everyone. I would literally be accused of something untrue and unjust - and instead of protecting myself, I would shut up and smile - which made things worse.
Action is healthy - however action is not prime target for anyone who feels social anxiety. The number one thing that is problem with social anxiety are toxic people - and our inability to recognize this, our inability to recognize toxic people. Then we get stuck with toxic people because we try to expose and take action. We try no to avoid people - and we get stuck with psychopaths and narcissists - who are attracted to our codependency, our healthy way of being active, to our need to have friends, and to be cooperative. They parasite on our need to be social. Toxic people are the only problem here. We have to learn about them, learn how to recognize them, learn about narcissistic abuse, learn about codependency and Karpman Drama Triangle - and to cut contact with anyone we can cut contact -and learn how to retort to toxic people. And see if that helps. Complex trauma is behind social anxiety.. We were traumatized by sick, untreated mentally ill people. And they did not break us. Instead we are now highly attuned to detect them - the only problem is that this detection goes on on unconscious level - as Jung study it. We feel it as discomfort and fears. And classical CBT is misleading. It directs us to expose - since isolation will create disorder, a in physics (second termo-dynanic law). However - if we do not have self worth, we will drive through life with our hand brake on as Maxwel Maltz said in 1960. If we self pathologize our emotions and fears as unacceptable, if we reject our ability to sense fear as "illusion" and over-reaction - we will destroy our self worth and we will attract toxic people when we take action. Then - as you said, we will feel worse when taking action. We have to start seeing social anxiety as super-ability, sharpened senses due to being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse. Now - we have extra fine, super sensitive tools inside our minds to detect toxicity in people. The next question is to sort out toxic people like in garbage can - are there low IQ toxic people who will recycle themselves when they are warned about their toxic behaviour - and we can thus stay be friends with them- or are there narcissists whom we have to cut contact since they are mentally ill and never change. And what to do when we cannot cut contact with psychopaths - how to treat and manage them. I see this approach much better than self-pathologizing our socially anxious emotions and fears in social situations.
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"eft tapping helps?" Be pragmatic. If you try - and it doesn't help - it is useless to be obsessive about something that clearly does not work. I would never self pathologize myself and self blame myself if I did not also take into consideration and inspection of external factor, too. Social anxiety is problem with toxic people. It is not problem from us, we are not the cause of it. I would rather see if it helps to learn about narcissistic abuse and how to handle and manage manipulation, Machiavellians, psychopaths, emotional vampires, borderliners and how to protect oneself from their abuse and aggression. Just imagine if Johnny Depp was eft tapping himself when he was abused by Amber. If he did not document the abuse - take action as described how to handle toxic people - he would lost the court and she would take his money. That is what parasites do - they gnaw us and exploit us. The social anxiety we feel is only red flag and signal that we are in the presence of conniving, toxic people like Amber.
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"What it turns out that your predictions were true?" Great question! And it is true. Our social anxiety is signal that our predictions are true. Toxic people will never admit they are toxic if you confront them directly. So with their mask on, the only way to get penetrated inside their lies and web of deceit is our ability to see through the mask. If we self pathologize our own feelings, our fears, our social anxiety as our fault and our illusion and that we hallucinate fears - we will destroy self worth inside us, we will become codependent and we will be exploited and taken advantage of toxic, manipulative people who take advantage of healthy, normal, socially open people like us.
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@Eugenio Sheryl "w/O attracting or absorbing their energy." But manipulators point and goal is that they inject their energy. They use manipulation to do this. They wear mask. They exploit unwritten social rules to get by. There is a term called "altruistic narcissist". They will, as borderliners, appear as friend to you, someone who helps you, they use and exploit empathy in directed and focused way - so that you earn their trust. They exploit tragedy and misfortune so that you trust them and you are forever in their debt, perceived friend.
So one problem is that we are unable to detect toxic people and they exploit us no matter what we try to manage.
Another problem is: When you say "manage to survive" - you are creating trauma, you create power - you are giving them power. What you resist, persist. When you tell your brain that you have to survive something , you will create anxiety, hypervigilance, depression and set yourself up for neurotic way of life, probably mental illness in the long term, mental imbalance.
It is not so easy topic. It is connected to our self worth and love. If we are not evil people, if we have no ill wish to others, if we have no hidden agenda to exploit others - we can allow ourselves to make mistakes, to be flawed and ignorant. It is love, self love. If we have love, we will be natural repellent to manipulators; when we are authentic, honest and true mixed with kindness. Zoroastrians talked about this 3000 years ago and all 3 major religions took over their postulates as their own.
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" You enter a social situation and your emotional brain senses potential danger." Ok, but what we do when there is real danger? Socially anxious people seek answer what to do when there is real danger. We do not get answer to this question.
"if we can turn those beliefs off, disprove them..." we will self pathologize ourselves and we will destroy our self worth and we will create deep ingrained toxic shame: I am different than others, I am abnormal, I cannot trust my gut instinct, I am unacceptable, I am unworthy.
"Belief your flaws will be revealed," What to do when toxic people target (As they always do since they are toxic) your mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge? How to retort their accusations and how to handle it in healthy manner? Why we never get answer to this question - and instead we are instructed to be people pleaser, pushover and to fawn to others (believing that we are imagining other people's unfair and unjust accusations)
"belief people will notice your flaws." What we do when they do notice our flaws?
"Belief they will be judgmental." What we do when they are judgmental? Why we are always cut short from that answer?
"Belief this will lead to harsh rejection," What we do when there is harsh rejection?
"Belief it will be intolerable." What we do when we do make mistake and perfectionist is mocking and attacking us for it? What then? How do we handle it in healthy manner? What we do when we do all the correct steps and try to be assertive - and the other person is mentally ill narcissist and they love confrontation and drama? What to do when we speak up - and it doesn't help. What to do when we do not speak up - and it doesn't help.
"We can teach our system these beliefs are incorrect" Ok, how we teach our system what to do when these beliefs are correct?
"There is no reason to feel those feelings" What if we are in the room with serial killer - and our feelings and instincts kick in and we feel social anxiety. Will it be advisable to ignore and stifle our feelings - or to listen to them and run away?
"We try with time to get to point to have different set of beliefs" What if Johnny Depp convinced himself that discomfortable feelings he had with Amber was hallucination and delusions - and he never document the abuse as reaction to anxiety that he feels around Amber - he would end up with loosing law suit and end up with bankruptcy. His career would be destroyed.
"Focus on other people" Manipulators do not operate like that. Some of them appear as altruistic narcissist and they appear as your friend. Some use heavy dark psychology and you are stuck with them without noticing red flags. In this case social anxiety that we feel is red flag that we document the abuse and pick up red flags. Without it, we might end up in the court with manipulator telling lies about us - and since we ignored our discomfort - we never document it - we would not have any proof or even knowledge about what was happening during the abuse - since we stifle it down and make ourselves belief it was not happening. What if cannot focus due to job, service, finances, help - and we are stuck with toxic people? What then, why we do not get information and concrete steps how to handle toxic people in manner that will not cost us law suit when they press manipulative and lying charges against us?
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" when someone is more "paranoid" than socially anxious, their anxiety will not come down with exposure, but instead get worse" Excellent question. Be scientific. Be Sherlock Holmes. Pick clues. See and seek evidence. Be aware of confirmation bias and how to avoid it (by accepting and deeply examining the criticism instead of rejecting it automatically). With social anxiety - we distrust our feelings and we have toxic shame. We believe other people are superior and we set ourselves up to be around toxic people. Then classical CBT will add up to toxic shame and it will explain to us that discomfort we feel is paranoia, our delusion, our hallucination. That we must not trust our feelings and emotions.
This happens because of narcissistic society that we live in: 1) classical CBT was based on faulty research in early 1990s where they examined shy people instead of socially anxious ones - socially anxious person in early 1990 would never go through any examination and would never admit he has shy issues due to narcissistic society that puts toxic masculinity as prime goal). and 2) Classical CBT was founded by corporations and their primary goal is to find quick fix for workers to get back to their toxic jobs so that economy would flourish and 3) Government/CIA payed experiment about shyness in 1970s (Zimbardo) showed that psychopaths actually have social anxiety hidden deep down in subconsciousness - so they lumped the social anxiety instructions targeted for sociopaths as general practice for anyone who feels social anxiety - and thus the healthy majority was forced to take medicine intended for criminally insane as package deal: that we convince ourselves that our feelings are wrong and that we distrust our instinct and gut feeling and never believe it. It is a form of lobotomy, intended for criminally insane to keep them under control (similar to the movie Clockwork orange where ex hooligan is treated to become passive so he is beaten up and abused by others after the treatment), so we are collateral damage in the process.
Social anxiety is not paranoia. Social anxiety is part of Complex trauma. Social anxiety is trauma. Injury, a wound. We grew up in toxic environment where we were exposed to narcissistic abuse, relentless criticism 24/7, invalidation and adult hysteria. Psychopaths, narcissists also grew up in such environment - however their abusers were much more extreme. The result is the same: we have injury in brain due to being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse (google it). Narcissists solve this by fight response - they abuse others. Quick fix for social anxiety is to attack others, be rude, find fault and criticize others, nitpick and be arrogant - social anxiety will vanish in second. This also affect self worth - so narcissist built their mask on superiority complex which keeps their self worth functional enough to handle social life.
Others, normal and healthy people - unlike psychopaths, have empathy and feel guilt when they use fight response. So we developed toxic shame and this destroys our self worth. We do not accept ourselves, we repeat the invalidation from childhood and we distrust our feelings, dislikes and our emotions. This sets us up to fawn and be people pleaser and it adds up to already present social anxiety.
Solution is that we trust ourselves. During growing up we never developed self worth in early age when it is crucial - with self worth comes our persona: ability to manage and handle life in functional and healthy manner. When we self pathologize ourselves, when we decide that our feelings and emotions are wrong : we are destroying our self worth. We never develop ability to handle and manage life -and then we depend on people who seem "confident" and strong and superior : this sets us up for codependency and we attract toxic people in our lives. Which only adds up to already present social anxiety.
The solution is to trust ourselves. To accept our feelings and emotions even if they might be wrong. We have brain - we can educate ourselves and test our beliefs and seek solutions that are functional and healthy. we cannot start doing this if we self-pathologize our emotions. Trauma did not break up us. Instead, it sharpened our senses, we now have super-power, super ability to detect toxic people. That appears as social anxiety to us.
In the end it comes down that we are not perfectionist (as we were programmed through complex trauma). This means, that we stand and withstand potential errors, mistakes, flaws - internal or external and our lack of knowledge. We cannot do this if we reject our social anxiety as delusion, hallucination or paranoia.
If we are normal, healthy person, if we have no ill wish to others, if we have no hidden agenda - there is absolutely nothing wrong with us, there is nothing to fix. We can be honest and authentic and speak the truth with kindness included, without drama, explosions and wars.
Any action a person will take - can and will be used against him, especially by toxic and manipulative people due to double binding. If we believe that we must be perfect and that we must follow other people's instruction in life - we will set ourselves up for codependency, we will never believe in our ability to manage and handle life.
What socially anxious people need is education - so that we can test our "paranoia" in laboratory environment, like scientist. What we need is to learn how to recognize toxic people, narcissists. How to handle narcissistic abuse in healthy manner.
And the truth is - if we take healthy action - it will mean that we will be forced to cut contact with toxic people - it means we will get fired for speaking up the truth and being integral and just. We will be punished by toxic people in any way for being just and healthy. This means we need to have money and we need to live in healthy country that can provide you money for having shelter. Problems occurs when we cannot cut contact with toxic people and when we cannot "change focus" - we do not have instructions what to do then.
This question is under examination by philosophy, politics, psychology. That means, that feeling social anxiety is actually evolutionary mean for ourselves - that we seek those answers. Our quest and discovery will create better society that is fair and without toxicity.
So if we stifle and destroy and ignore our social anxiety as paranoia, delusion, hallucination - we are actually cowards and take easy way out. See if it helps and where it will lead us, I ended up with being pushover, people pleaser and I fawned as automatic reaction to social anxiety, I blamed myself for feeling anxiety when toxic people were clearly accusing me for unfair and untrue accusations. Instead of retort, I smiled and self-censor myself.
Socially anxious people need clarification and explanation what is going on - and how to handle toxic people. Toxic people caused social anxiety in the first place. We need information how to handle toxic people - this information will help our social anxiety. Self-pathologizing will destroy our self worth and make us into philosophical zombie - a person without character, without charisma, without caprice, without perks & quirks, without initiative, without ideas, NPC wojak, a background character in other people's lives.
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"when you can’t even go shopping far of people just being around you in a store" Excellent request that needs answer. Self pathologizing our emotions will only make us feel more fear and we will never trust ourselves to do anything. WE will be stuck in a loop: I do not trust myself. Without self worth we are cripples. With trauma we are prone to isolation. With isolation we will be immobile and passive and our thoughts will rot, we will create delusional world and paranoia with flashbacks and triggers.
Social anxiety is a part of complex trauma. IT is trauma. At some point in our lives (usually when we were growing up and when our task was to build self worth and thus our character and persona which would allow us to handle and manage life and problems we encounter as adults) - instead of growing our persona - we were attacked, our self worth was destroyed by toxic shame: being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and being exposed to adult hysteria - which damaged our ego and we developed safety mechanisms in order to survive the attack.
"Society attacks early, when the individual is helpless. It enslaves him almost before he has tasted freedom." BF SKINNER
So instead of self-pathologizing our fears, phobias, anxiety and discomfort emotions - the better approach would be that we accept ourselves and love ourselves, give validation that we never received in times when we were suppose to get it. This means - that we trust ourselves first. Then we can learn and educate ourselves about how to handle toxic people who will criticize us. Learn why they do that, instead of pretending it is paranoia and that there is no toxicity in other people.
With complex trauma, we were taught by toxic people that we are not allowed to make mistakes. We were programmed that we must be perfect. That we must not make fool of ourselves - that this is somehow connected to our self worth automatically. Toxic people fused together mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge with our sense of self worth. In reality, we never built our self worth in the first place. Self worth is when we are fine with being mistaken. Self worth is when we trust our dislikes instead of pathologizing them and pretending there are no problems in order to make toxic people happy and regulated.
So taking action - go shopping, be among people is crucial for our health. When we are isolated, like second law of termo-dynamics - we will be prone to disorder if left unchallenged. However, if we do not accept ourselves, we will still be isolated and thus there will still be room for disorder. Self acceptance means that we embrace our super ego inside. This means, that we lean on our moral knowledge of what is right and knowing what is wrong. Without wars, without explosions, without drama. IF we are kind people, if we have no ill wish, if we have no hidden agenda against other people- there is nothing to hide from ourselves nor from other world. That is our self worth. In complex trauma we were taught to be perfect, to distrust our mistakes - and this set us up to build false persona, and to serve other people - that since we do not trust ourselves, we put belief and definition of validation in other people. This is why we feel scared when shopping. We trauma bond with other people - since in our mind they are superior, they have worth. We are inferior, we make mistakes and trauma programmed us to believe that mistakes are proof we are invalid and inferior. Mistakes may be our shaky voice, the way we are dressed, mistakes may be defined as not knowing what we want. Toxic people target and parasite on these - and they will notice it, they will mock it and they will attack it. Classical CBT will explain to us that this mock, noticing and attacking is our illusion, delusion that we are hallucinating it. We are not. There are toxic people out there, and our social anxiety is ability to detect toxic people. Trauma did not break us. In fact, it made us into beings who are sensitive enough to see through the mask and see toxicity in people. We pick it up very easily. If we stifle down this super ability, we will destroy our self worth and this will make us stuck in isolation, toxic shame - which we will then mis- label as social anxiety, as instructed by faulty Classical CBT. We will literally lobotomize ourselves - that we numb ourselves down enough in order to be around people.
With social anxiety feelings - it only means that we lack education how to handle toxic people. How to handle in healthy and functional manner someone's unfair criticism. We lack education how to recognize narcissists. We lack education about codependency and Karpman Drama triangle. We lack concrete steps how to retort to toxic people. We lack information about self worth and external reference locus of control. we lack information about complex trauma and emotional regulation/dysregulation to know how to recognize it when it happens. And this is purpose of social anxiety - to prepare us to handle and recognize and to manage toxic people.
Social anxiety was started and created toxic people - they are the one and only problem here. We are not the problem. IF we make ourselves believe that our anxiety is awful and that we must reject it - we will create more disorder. What we resist, persist.
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"No one cares" Toxic people care. They manipulate and seek how to exploit easy targets: people who are instructed not to care. Narcissists, manipulators, Machiavellians, energy vampires will target your mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge and nitpick them in order to control you. So these types of people do care. What we do against it, when we have these parasites who do care how we act, how we think, when we express our opinion? Can we get answer to this question?
"Desensitize yourself" Trauma inside will still protect the brain with cocoon. Exposure does not help if you are having external reference locus of control and trauma bonded. What happens when we do meet toxic people out there? How do we handle them? Why can we get question to that problem. Instead we are being told that we are abnormal for having fears. Toxic people will only sharpen our senses to detect more toxic people in the future. IF we ignore this natural occurrence, we will ignore red flags and allow people like Amber in our lives. Then they will sue us and we will file bankruptcy and our reputation will be destroyed because of their lying. If we listened to our social anxiety 1) we would never grow any contact with people like Amber 2) we would document the abuse - and thus have evidence of their manipulation. Self pathologizing will destroy our self worth inside.
"Say anything" ok. what happens when we are mocked for saying anything? What if they nitpick our mistakes? How we handle criticism? Why we do not get clear instructions how to retort to unfair prejudices?
"Embrace silence" Socially anxious people do self-censor themselves, due to complex trauma which is behind social anxiety anyway.
"Breathe" What happens when breathing techniques does not help? Then we will feel more anxiety - since it does not helping.
"Collect your thoughts" Social anxiety is emotional dysregulation. This means cortex part of brain is switched off and amygdala runs - this is called amygdala hijacking. You cannot "collect your thoughts" by wishing it due to complex brain disruption, it is inside your brain, this is not something you can pick with your fingers and re-modulate at whim.
This is video about shyness and how to handle shyness. Social anxiety will not wear off, shyness will. Social anxiety does not go away with exposure, shyness will.
With google people mis-diagnose easily. Problem is that people with real social anxiety get information that is really misguided and actually intended for shyness - discourage them and get them in wrong alley - which may result as depression since it will not help at all.
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1:17 "fear of what other people think about them" If you study it more deeply, you would notice this is connected with our mistakes, our flaws (internal or external) and our lack of knowledge. Toxic people nitpick these and criticize it in order to mock the target, control it and exploit it through abuse: nitpicking, complaining, criticizing our mistakes, flaws and ignorance. So - we are not the problem here at all. Toxic people are, their intentions to control and abuse the target.
1:50 "accept fear as silly or inconsequential" this works with normal and healthy people like you and tom. However, there are toxic people out there who hurt and exploit and manipulate others - and our fears will be red flags that will signal us that we are in the presence of toxic person.
2:04 "accept embarrassment" This is not so easy for people with complex trauma who were programmed through narcissistic abuse when growing up that every mistake is embarrassment.
2:51 "is it life or death scenario. IF not, you will recover" What to do when it is catastrophe? What we do then? What when we are manipulated and deceiced? What we do then?
3:31 "Would I hold others to the same ridiculous standards" Again, this works with healthy and normal people like you. But what we do when we are stuck with toxic people, and we cannot leave (for whatever reason) - how do we handle their abuse - holding their unreasonable standards against ourselves. How we retort? How we defend ourselves when they throw unfair and unjust accusations? How we challenge toxic criticism?
3:58 "Focus on others" socially anxious people are already hyperfocused on others - they expect attack the same one that caused social anxiety in the first place. It is being zoomed onto their face expression, tone of word they utter, how they act etc-
5:28 "taking actions" IT will not help if we are in toxic environment - and if we ignore our social anxiety as red flag to acknowledge and realize that it is toxic in the first place.
6:55 "self imposed exile" I bet Johnny Depp convinced himself that his fears and uncomfortable emotions around Amber are delusional and paranoid - so he never listened to his social anxiety and try to expose himself. He might as well file for bankruptcy and his career would be destroyed if he ignored the red flags and convinced himself that what he is feeling is social anxiety and it should be stifled and rejected.
Toxic people are behind social anxiety. It is not our invention. It is not our choice. It is natural response to toxic people. Long term exposure to narcissistic abuse can cause brain injury - google it. Self pathologizing our fears and rejecting them as unwanted, we will destroy our self worth and we will be exposed to toxic people to exploit us. We need ability to detect toxic people and learn how to retort to them.
This is not easy. This also means that we will have to relocate and change jobs more than it feels comfortable to anyone, with or without anxiety. When we are without social anxiety we will speak the truth and be honest -and this means toxic people will attack us. We will lose our jobs and our actions and opinions will be attacked. To sustain the damage and attack we need self worth. We can't get self worth if we reject our social anxiety as paranoia or our fault.
Each abuse makes us sensitive to detect toxic people and abuse. social anxiety is byproduct of such interaction.
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"it is normal to have feelings of nervousness in new or unfamiliar situations" ok, what we do when we have feelings of nervousness in toxic environment with toxic people. Why socially anxious people never get answer to how to handle toxic people, narcissists, Machiavellians, energy vampires, parasites, borderliners?
"Normal daily interaction can be exhausting and terrifying" This depends on what normal means? Is it normal that you are yelled at when you need service? Is it normal that person will ignore you when you need help from them and it is their job to help? Is it normal that the other people has inappropriate outbursts of anger? Should we ignore it and pretend it does not bother us and thus keep enabling the narcissistic abuse to continue?
"People with social anxiety often worry intensely about social situations " This is over-generalization, it is not completely true sentence. People with social anxiety often do worry intensely about social situations in which toxic people may hurt, harm or exploit them in any way possible - covertly or overtly. The accent is on the toxic person on the other side. IF socially anxious people knew that social situation is safe, that there is psychological safety - there would be no social anxiety. Over-generalization can be very harmful in science and in psychology, since they throw label at areas which are not covered by it at all, and it misleads the clues and puzzles into wrong dead end alley. I would try to be more specific and painfully detailed when diagnosing anything. Anything other than this is bluntly harmful.
"They worry people are noticing they are nervous and anxious" Nope. That is not true. They worry about criticism - potential or real. Simply as that, we do not have to go to overanalyzing our symptoms and fears. We can stick with criticism. Social anxiety overlaps with many other disorders and with shyness. If we do not stick with "criticism" as important and crucial clue, we will get off tracks.
"People with social anxiety feel self conscious and embarrassed" Due to complex trauma and long term exposure to narcissistic abuse which can cause brain injury (google it). So it is normal reaction to abnormal people, abnormal situations, abnormal events. It would be abnormal not to feel scared when you are with psychopath. IT would mean that you are abnormal and psychopath. We need to stop self-pathologizing our normal emotions.
"physical symptoms" This is called dysregulation. Polyvagal theory. Again, normal reaction to abnormal trauma.
"We are all hard wired to fear judgement" ok. this part is clear. What is unclear is what we do about judgement? We do not get answer how to handle toxic people? unfair criticism? How to handle when we are abused for our own mistakes, flaws and ignorance which may be totally out of our control or totally normal for not having enough skills yet - but toxic people who demand perfectionism, since they are ill. How we handle it? Why we never get answer to these - yet we get tons of toxic shame, self blame and self-pathology information which only destroy our self worth and and thus we have no ability to stand up to bullies.
"The truth is people are so busy judging themselves they really are not worried or even thinking about you" Healthy and normal people do not worry, that is true. However there are toxic people who worry a lot and it is the source of their validation and sometimes even income. How we handle Machiavellians who exploit our needs? How we handle narcissists who worry a lot about our mistakes and they are focused on them? Why we don't get answer step by step how to handle toxic people who do worry about our mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge that they mock or attack?
"Sleep, avoid caffeinated, exercise" This does not help with toxic people criticism
"Practice social skills" Socially anxious people already have superior social skills and they practice it a lot. In fact it would really help to turn those down and minimize it in some cases. People with social anxiety have ability to put themselves in other people shoes - while many ignorant people who are very confident have no social skills at all - and yet these are very confident and successful in life. So social skills argument - wrong alley.
"Hypnotherapy" Social anxiety is a form of hypnosis. We are hypnotized into subservience and ignoring toxic people.
Just imagine if Johnny Depp ignored his social anxiety symptoms and decided not to document Amber - he would now file for bankruptcy and his career would be destroyed. Or Will Smith - being hypnotized to be confident and masculine, he slapped Rock - and now his career is on hold, the same night he received Oscar.
I would not meddle with our thoughts if there is nothing to fix. If we are kind, if we have no ill wish to anyone, if we do not have hidden evil agenda to hurt and or exploit other people - there is nothing wrong with us. Self-pathologizing will only create mental illness and destroy our self worth.
The only problem are toxic people and we need to educate ourselves to recognize them and how to handle them in healthy manner, by trusting our gut and our emotions - even when these emotions are not chirpy and happy.
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"Realize that not everyone is judging you" ok. What to do when they do judge? What we do then? Can we get any answer to that question?
Before answering that we are like Jesus - please take in mind that toxic people are manipulators. They are Machiavellians and they employ dark psychology - so they have any answer to assertive people and even when you leave them. Just look at Amber - he almost destroyed Johnny Depp's life when he decided to cut contact with her. We need healthy, sane, down to Earth how to handle and manage and recognize toxic people. That will help with social anxiety. Anything other than that is ideology and manipulation.
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"It can be caused by uncertainty. Prepare" Yet, PureOCD tell us if we react to anxiety - we will make it worse. Any reaction to anxiety leads to OCD and hypervigilance, it does not help in long term, It makes us addicts to our mechanism of being prepared.
"See that social situation can go ok" What we do when social situation does not go ok? We never get answer how to handle toxic people - which are true source of social anxiety.
"We make things in our mind worse things to happen" Ok, but what we do when worse thing that can happen?
"Determining how likely worst thing to happen" Ok, but what when it does happen?
"How likely in the future to happen" Let me put it like this: how we handle when someone makes fun of me? We don't get answer. Socially anxious people do not know. they were traumatized and programmed to trauma - so we have no idea how to handle toxic people and no one tell us how to handle them.
"Think of things negative people think about you" Ok, but how we act when they are aggressive and rude? Making fun is not the only situation. There are toxic people who target our mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge. And they care a lot about it, so that they can claim their superiority and power and control and present themselves as saviours and leaders - it is narcissistic power trip to gain admiration and validation.
We need step by step instruction how to handle manipulators-
"People are ok with clothes" What if they are not. How we retort those people who are not ok with us? We need answer to toxic people, not our symptoms. If we pathologize our emotions and thoughts (even if wrong and distorted) we will destroy our self worth.
"Prepare questions" Will make us fake and nonauthentic.
"Be great listener" Socially anxious people already have this skill due to growing up in abusive environment and trauma and being punished for expressing oneself.
Toxic people are the only problem here. Social anxiety is red flag that there are abnormal people in our presence. And pathologizing our fears is bad idea.
"Avoiding social situations" Sure, isolation leads to disorder as second termo.dynamic law tell us. However - if we are in disorder itself, if we are in toxic environment, it will not get magically healthy by itself. Imagine if Johnny Depp kept social situations with Amber - and ignored the red flags and not document her abuse - if he pathologized his discomfort around her - he would now file for bankruptcy and his career would be dead and gone and everyone would label him as abuser.
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I see toxic people and narcissism as the virus here that creates chaos. Complex trauma makes people perfectionist (being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria, not allowed to make mistakes). And anxiety is deep when there are critical people in social situations, toxic people who love to mock, abuse and attack people with toxic shame - equating the mistake with character. Flaws, internal or external as proof that the target is inept and unacceptable and must be rejected - unless going along with antagonistic controlling narcissist and his ideas and commands and orders. It is easy for toxic people to find mistakes in others, their flaws and lack of knowledge. Healthy people would warn mistake as a wish to help other person to grow and upgrade. It is not a tool to destroy other person. Toxic people use mistakes, flaws and ignorance to control and exploit other people - and they parasite on normal byproducts of such attack: anxiety and anger of target and blaming the victim for feeling uncomfortable when mocked or attacked by narcsissist.
So we need step by step, direct knowledge and information how to handle, recognize and manage toxic people. I would not go through self-pathologizing our emotions and feelings that we feel in life, wrong alley, dead end. Self pathologizing leads to destruction of self worth.
No one is perfect ,everyone makes stupid mistakes. Mistakes are the only way to learn and grow. Whatever action we take - it can be labelled as mistake, flaw or ignorance - and this double binding is what toxic people exploit for victims of their abuse to feel invalidated, ashamed, immobile and exploited. Machiavellians and politicians are abusing normal and healthy part of population - and instead of seeing this and become aware, we are instructed especially by Classical CBT to self pathologize and blame ourselves for feeling anxiety or anger.
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Socially anxious people are already focused on other people. They are zoomed already to other people. So focusing on other people is horrible advice by person who is prone to oversimplifications and prejudiced and bias. He never explains socially anxious people what to do when you meet toxic people - who are true cause of social anxiety. How to handle toxic people? How to manage their manipulation and dark psychology. Socially anxious people have social skills. They are able to put themselves in other people shoe's. This is highly valuable social skill, and many people pay a lot of money to learn it. So he is biased and he talks nonsense here.
Social anxiety is part of Complex Trauma. It is being hurt and attacked by toxic people who we met. We did not get destroyed in that process. Instead we developed senses to detect such toxic people in the future. So social anxiety is super ability, evolutionary skill - that we learn upon danger to protect ourselves. This is Darwinism here, it is proof that all beings evolve. So social anxiety is not something to reject or pathologize. If we self pathologize our fears, we will destroy our self worth, we will ignore toxic people red flags and we will end up in relationships with toxic people like Jordan Peterson who is misleading us and talking rubbish, giving the totally wrong and non examined instructions. OR we might also end up with manipulative psychopaths such as Amber - and if we ignore our social anxiety telling us that we are in danger - we might end up filing bankruptcy and destroying our career.
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"This is a different case from social anxiety disorder.. without your audience showing any signs of being ‘toxic' "
Correct. Do you know what case that might be when you are around toxic people and they affect your mental health? How would you name that in psychology?
Problem is: A lot of people are diagnosed for having social anxiety while in fact they are experiencing trauma associated with toxic people. And no one remembers to see if the perceived abuse is real or imagined.
It gets even more complex: A lot of people were wounded by toxic people while growing up and now they over-react due to triggers which remind them of past trauma, and do not know how to react to toxic people.
Another problem are toxic people themselves. They are manipulative and they hide their intentions and agenda in order to gaslight their target. They can be overt, but they come as cover abusers, too - so they never show their true face and blame the victim for feeling scared and panicked.
Then, There are for example altruistic narcissist who help the victim only to abuse them in the process. The victim has absolutely no idea that the abuse is coming from external factor. Instead, the victim thinks that emotional imbalance is delusion.
Almost every narcissist has love bombing phase where they are not toxic at all.
Borderliners change their mood - so they use empathy in focused way in order to cover up their abuse and the victim is confused in such situations, thinking that abuse is illusion and imaginary.
Has it occur to you that both social anxiety disorder and people who were victims of abuse - would benefit a lot from the same information and instruction: how to deal with toxic people?
Instead of labelling socially anxious fear anxiety emotions as unacceptable and thus forming toxic shame and inability to form self worth?
Let me put it this way: I wonder, how would you help people who are surrounded with toxic people and suffer from their abuse - and they are unable to cut contact and go away from abuse (due to any reason)?
Hint: The answer to this question would help socially anxious people too - a lot. Instead of pathologizing social anxiety as hallucination.
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Problem is when you are victim of narcissist, they gaslight you and you are not aware you are being manipulated and abused. They direct abuse to self blame. The best example is social anxiety - where Classical CBT (default therapy for social anxiety) will instruct you to define your uncomfortable feelings as delusion and that you must expose yourself to toxic people, and that toxic people do not exist - that it is all your imagination. Avoidants - people who went through trauma and narcissistic abuse - are explained not to avoid as professional advice for avoidance and social anxiety.
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" disengaging from the relationship " What would you say to someone who can't disengage? Due to job, service, help needed, service, finances, circumstances beyond control etc. What then? People with social anxiety would benefit to know what to do then.
And Oprah said that you really cannot run nor hide away. The toxic person will simply re-appear in different trousers. We cannot run away from our problems, they will always come in some other form. Also, when we leave something unresolved, it will build up in our brain as danger - and it will become trauma, unhealed wound that is open. So we will start to avoid similar people and similar situations in the future.
What I am learning is that there is a specific, constructive and functional way we can actually retort to difficult people. However this information is hidden and not explored at all - neither by medical community, nor by any resource available to us.
Also, I believe that this information how to handle difficult people in healthy manner is expensive and only rich can afford it to learn.
For example - if I grew up in complex trauma environment, I will believe that I have only two options to deal with someone toxic. 1) drama and explosions and making things worse and dangerous or 2) fawning and self-censorship, shutting up and ignoring the abuse and thus enabling it to continues. Well, there is third option - to say simply "I disagree with you". This type of third option would be extremely helpful to mention to socially anxious people, however this information is not available.
What I am wondering is a situation where for example at work - where I cannot escape - since I would end up broke and homeless if I run away every time someone is hysterical - and let's say my work consist of close contact with hysterical and rude people. How to keep sanity in such environment? Answer to this would help socially anxious people.
So disengaging from this would not help - since running away from hysterical and difficult people would end up with you getting fired since you would not do your job. Let's say that you live in a poor and corrupt country - and seeking another employment means being without job for couple of years or permanent. What then?
Also, I am still thinking about what you said: "The abnormal thinking patterns that occurs in social anxiety disorder are usually generated from your own mind and they are usually unfounded" Shouldn't this fall under Paranoid delusional disorder?
And mayoclinic defines panic attack as imaginary: "A panic attack is a sudden episode of intense fear that triggers severe physical reactions when there is no real danger or apparent cause. " Again, my question is what to do when there is a real and apparent cause? Seems to me this part is very hidden and unclear. There are no clear information what to do when there is a real threat. As I said, disengaging is not always choice for most situations.
Wikipedia describes social anxiety as: "characterized by sentiments of fear and anxiety in social situations" and "These fears can be triggered by perceived or actual scrutiny from others. Individuals with social anxiety disorder fear negative evaluations from other people."
So classical CBT is describing social anxiety as any fear from criticism - real or imagined one. They state that even real and true interaction with toxic person - if you feel negative emotions as reaction to toxic person - they say that this is social anxiety.
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Quick fix for social anxiety is narcissism and abuse, fight response. Just like any dysfunctional response, it does help immediately, but not over long term. Peterson is narcissist and he is instructing young men, too impressionable and easily molded - to wear mask and solve life problems by developing superiority complex.
"resistant to their onslaught" God knows what will happen when you meet some stubborn narcissist for whom you'll not be resistant.
" there are fewer toxic people in my life" Toxic people are excellent manipulators and their prime goal is that you do not detect them. This means, you will probably cut off sincere and honest people who tell you the facts as they are - and in the same time, you will attract parasites who will suck your energy without ever noticing it because they are not openly toxic. Since they will crack your code that you seek pleasure and fun in society, they will easily manipulate your desires and wants. That is what makes them toxic. Of course, this is something that psychologist ought to explain and teach you about - however Jordan Peterson is payed by corporations to create generation of slaves and zombies to exploit who seek quick solutions and immediate pleasure.
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(7.6.2022)
Great! From my own experience, exposure made me codependent, I was people pleaser and I was fawning and pushover. I fawn because official social anxiety resources were explaining to me that fears that I feel are illusionary. And therefore it is all in my head, I am being delusional that people hate me or that they have hidden agenda or that they are plain rude. So - what happened in reality - is that I was with true narcissists, manipulators and Machiavellians, and I would label their wrongdoings as my fault. As I am wrong for feeling discomfort around those people. That is what Classical CBT is doing. IT leads us astray. This happens because Classical CBT was intended actually for criminally insane who are feeling social anxiety. And it was designed by narcissist in medical community who did not want to create healthy population, they wanted zombies and slaves to corporations that payed their school and managerial seat. Classical CBT was not intended for normal, healthy people who feel anxious due to trauma or being surrounded by toxic people.
Classical CBT will not explain to you what you need to do when you meet someone who is hysterical. What to do when you meet someone who is rude to you. They will not explain to you what happens when you are attacked, how you handle conflict and confrontation by manipulators who blame you for your own unintentional mistakes, flaws or lack of knowledge as if it is an end of the world- This information is hidden and kept away from us. Instead, we are being told that abuse from hysterical people is all our delusion and hallucination.
I was literally being accused by my boss for not doing something - and I felt shame and anxiety - and then I remembered classical CBT advice that any panic is imaginary. So I listen to Classical CBT in such situations when you are accused of lies and unfair accusations - and I would simply smile and pretend there is no problem at all.
Classical CBT never mentions the concept called Moral injury - that we will experience distress in unfair situations without our ability to do anything about it, to defend ourselves. Classical CBT never mentions toxic people - what to do about them. They blame us for our feelings of anxiety when we are near toxic people and their abuse and manipulation. Classical CBT never mentions trauma and effect on child brain when the child is exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria. These things are neatly kept shrugged under the rug- Classical CBT is a hoax.
Social anxiety we feel is real. We detect toxic people because they bullied us in the past. With each bullying our senses grow sharper and we can detect them more easily. That discomfort we feel is our ability to detect fake people and deception. There is nothing to fix there.
If we are hysterical and if we cannot control ourselves - that is our problem and that is what should be fixed in psychology. However if we are kind, if we are nice, if we have no ill will even to the abusers, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling anxiety in social situations.
The world is filled with fake and dangerous and toxic people. We simply have ability to sense them, kind like x-ray vision. Abuse never broke us, as classical CBT will try to explain to us. Instead, abuse made us strong and we developed super ability to detect any potential or similar abuse. This is Darwinism in action. We simply grew additional abilities to protect ourselves, this is totally natural process of life, it is not illness.
True illness are toxic people that we detect with our anxiety.
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Thanks, I wrote comment to this, but it got deleted due to bad connection, I'll try again now. (Sorry if my comment turns up twice).
Problem is that classical CBT which is default therapy for Social anxiety clearly states that social anxiety is delusions, it is hallucination. IT does not offer any information how to handle toxic people. The official mayoclinic definition for panic is: "A panic attack is a sudden episode of intense fear that triggers severe physical reactions when there is no real danger or apparent cause." I tried to see what is called when you face real danger and feel panic - and what to do when there is a real danger and apparent cause.
This part about what is hallucination and what is real gets complex. We see that with complex trauma a child growing up in hysterical environment, with relentless criticism 24/7 will never grow up learning about self worth. Instead it will learn to fawn and to be subservient to toxic people. So such person grows up and feel general anxiety around people. Now this part is tricky.
Anxiety will spark up when there are difficult people. But we never know what other person is feeling and thinking truly. People are prone to lie and be dishonest. People have low IQ and low education so they do not know how to label their emotions and wants. People have been influenced by toxic people around them to accept their definitions about life that may conflict with their own and they may appear difficult - without being their true goal and agenda to hurt another person. So - classical CBT (which means practically all medical and self help books by medical community) will explain to us that our fears and anxiety are invented, that they are over-reaction and that people do not hate us.
In the same time classical CBT never explain to us how to handle toxic people. How to handle their abuse and manipulation. They never explain to us how to handle conflict and confrontation. They never explain to us the concept of self worth- that self worth means trusting your own emotions and feelings, even when they are wrong.
Classical cbt never explains the concept of Moral injury - of being exposed to toxic criminal acts and doing nothing about it. Classical CBT never explains that there is quick and super easy solution to general way how to handle life and people, Descartes discovered it 372 years ago: to doubt everyone, even our own thoughts. That we question and test everyone and everything. Gather all the data and see if our thoughts and predictions are actually true. Test it like a scientist and seek clues like Sherlock Holmes. Instead, classical CBT instructs us that our feelings are delusional and we are wrong about our fears that we feel in social situations.
"It is not about fixing thoughts. " Classical CBT says that our social anxiety is product of cognitive distortions and that our only task to handle social anxiety is to fix our thoughts. ABC model. That our interpretations are creating drama and hysteria. So we are guilty for feeling anxiety that comes from our explanations.
As I said - they never explain what happens when the other person is manipulative and lies. What happens when they have honeymoon phases and mood swings and when narcissist is living in fantasy world where they invent their goals. We are never being told how to handle that. Instead we are being instructed by millions of self help books and official medical resources, including wikipedia - that our thoughts are the only problem in social anxiety.
Wikipedia: "These fears can be triggered by perceived or actual scrutiny from others. " "The first line of treatment for social anxiety disorder is cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT)." "Thoughts are often self-defeating and inaccurate."
So social anxiety information by official medical resources is extremely misleading. IT goes into direction of fixing our thoughts. It never explains nor gives and instruction what to do when there is overt, open aggression from toxic people - and it never explains how to recognize hidden and manipulative people who use dark psychology to exploit their targets. Instead, the official explanation is that social anxiety is hallucination.
Abuse never broke us. Instead, toxic people only made us to sharpen our senses. It is evolutionary. Like a plant that develops thorns - so we developed ability to detect toxic and fake people easily. Our social anxiety is signal that something is wrong. So our only task is to seek who is the cause of distortion. It is not our thoughts. We are picking negative energy with feelings that official medical community labels as "Social anxiety". Our task, instead of self-pathologizing our emotions and fears is to become scientist and gather all the data, seek evidence, be transparent and honest - and to be Sherlock Holmes and pick up the clues and collect all the available puzzles to get the big picture. Our social anxiety is proof that Darwinism is real - we have evolutionary developed from a person who was not aware of toxic people - into person who is aware that there are predatory personalities out there.
Now I only agree that if there is something to "fix" about us - it is if we are violent, if we have ill wish to our abusers, if we want to harm and hurt other people. That is pathology. But if we are kind and nice, and we want truth, and seek truth always, if we want peace and agreeableness and interdependence instead of codependency - there is absolutely nothing to fix in our minds.
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Descartes told us 372 years ago that we need to doubt everything and everyone, other people and our own thoughts - and then we will have ability to really think. Doubt does not mean that we reject or label something as trash. It only means that we stand a little back and see clues, seek information and gather all that can be gathered from anything around us and inside us. With this doubt techniques (Evil demon hypothesis), we will have ability to detect parasites and viruses. There are predatory types of personalities out there, deceptive people who appear as friend and help but really they have hidden agenda to cause harm and exploit others.
Therefore, I would focus more on external factor. The reason why we procrastinate is other people. Other people are hysterical and toxic - and we have no idea how to handle and manage them. How to deal with narcissists who manipulate? If we self-pathologize our own thoughts and label it as enemies and if we decide to punish ourselves (discipline something that we concluded is enemy inside us) - this will destroy our self worth. Self love and self validation is essential to exist in this life. Without it we will be pushover and people pleasers, we will fawn to toxic manipulative people who knows how to handle people without self worth. Without self worth we are cripples. So I would be very careful if we start to meddle and perch and pick and meddle with ourselves. When we have no self worth, toxic people will sniff us out very easily, since their narcissistic wound and hole inside them make their life purpose in life to suck energy from easy targets - someone who feels bad about themselves.
Again, toxic people are the only problem here.
If we are kind, nice, if we have no ill wish to others, if we have no hidden agenda to harm and exploit other people - there is absolutely nothing wrong with us. Anything else is self-pathologizing - and that will destroy our self worth - even when we have good intentions such as "discipline" and "transformation journey". Instead of fixing, I would rather skin off the onion layers and get to true self - someone how is nice, friendly and kind without hidden Machiavellian agenda to exploit others or poison our environment.
With self worth inside us we will be able to do the uncomfortable stuff. With complex trauma we were programmed to fix other people and to be perfectionist. We are programmed to believe that we are unworthy unless we produce to others and accumulate material in order to show superiority over others.
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Without self worth we are cripples. We will become easy target for manipulative and exploitative Machiavellians (marketing & politicians) and narcissists if we self-pathologize ourselves - even when there is true reason such as making mistake. This is where it gets complex.
"Stop judging yourself and be nice to yourself." People will judge our mistakes, flaws (internal or external) and our lack of knowledge. They will attack something that is truly our fault. The hidden truth is that we probably do it unintentionally and that we do not have skills to do it perfectly and that perfectionism is mental illness and that mistakes are normal part of life and that we cannot be perfect all the time. Instead toxic people will highlight our mistake as aggression onto them - and then we will react by feeling guilty and ashamed - where toxic shame destroys self worth. If we equate our action with out persona and being - it is toxic shame, and toxic shame always destroys self worth.
Now the complex part is - when we are healthy and normal, we will try not to hurt nor cause any harm to others. So we will feel intense reaction when we make any mistake. This means - that in order to like ourselves - we actually need to lower our amygdala setting. This means bluntly that we allow ourselves to be bad. That we re-define what means nice and kind. That we find better definition of what means good.
For example, we might see traffic jams at airports in Uk. Now the person in charge might feel extreme shame and embarrassment for circumstances that may or may not be under his control. If he decide that he is guilty - he might end up with severe stress and mental imbalance. And this happens to all of us at our jobs or any action that we take. Any action can be labelled due to double binding as evil, wrong and mistake.
So the true problem are toxic people who highlight our mistake as catastrophe. If we are nice and kind we would agree with them - and then we end up with toxic shame, since we caused the Armageddon. This way toxic people can control us - and we may decide to avoid social life - in order not to hurt other people by our unintentional or even intentional mistakes that could not be avoided due to faulty system.
In order to manage our self worth, then I would focus on this complex part. Think - how are we responsible for anything we do that turns up bad? How we retort to unreasonable people who blow up our mistakes? How we redefine our definitions of what good means without becoming narcissist in the process?
The natural answer is : that anything we do in life will naturally be mistaken and mistake, it will cause someone evil and pain. Can we minimize it and do it better? No. Without knowledge and experience we cannot avoid mistakes. So we are left with changing our thoughts and perceptions that we are aware that mistakes are natural part of life. Hysteria about them is illness that will cause mental illness inside us, if we believe that we cannot and must not make mistake in life.
Then we realize that there are toxic people out there, predatory types that seek how to hurt and cause pain to others - because that makes them feel good inside, they are sick and sadistic. They will wait patiently like fisherman on a shore and - soon enough a mistake will crop up - and they will pontificate about it. So we will instantly defend ourselves and even fawn to them, and let them control us and rule over us. While the better and intelligent way is that - we pinpoint their own wrongdoing: scaremongering and parasiting over other people mistakes in order for them to be superior and control the victim. We voice out their unreasonable, hysterical and parasitic behaviour. And if we can, we cut contact with them.
So the third thing is that we need to adjust our definitions what kind and nice person means. It is most probably that if we have self worth issues - that we were raised in complex trauma environment: constant relentless 24/7 criticism of our mistakes - which made us now to fawn and people please and assume responsibilities for everything and to appease hysterical people and fix their real or imagined discomfort.
I hope you see that one common element in all this complex matter are: toxic people. They are hidden and indetectable virus here that create chaos and disorder. They will cause us to self blame and to assume responsibilities for things which objectively are not totally our fault. They do it through manipulation.
So self worth concept tell us that 1) toxic people are the hidden manipulative culprit behind the lack of self worth and 2) that we need to have money to support our advocacy - since we will probably have to relocate to avoid toxic people. We will get fired when we stand up for ourselves - so we will need money until we get another job. Perhaps we can change our mentality about what we need in life and how much money we truly need - maybe we will realize as it was said in the video - that we are trying to please other people and thus we spend money on things to impress others, or we seek to impress others by sticking with toxic people and toxic habits and toxic environment.
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"How do you break up a “world” made of knowledge or information? Informational building block is the answer. The smallest information building block is the answer to a question with the fewest possible outcomes. Yes or no questions. So Zeilinger says that any quantum system can be broken into the results of binary questions." Yet we know that Aristotelian logic is faulty and it leads to false conclusions. There reality is fuzzy, there is fuzzy logic. Partially and in percentages.
So binary questions depend on our questions. If we ask the correct question means requirement is detailed and precise question, which will get closer to the correct answer. Problem is what we define as what we want to measure in the first place. We may have faulty and wrong or vague elements to measure at the start. For example, Is the room illuminated - does not answer is the room lighter by candle, only partially, only one small part of room - or are there led lights that illuminate ever inch of the room. If you do not know the space of the room - then you cannot ask questions related about metrics inside it - you will get wrong answers. Problem is that you do not that there is a room, or you cannot define it as a room or you defined it wrongly in the start and stick with the wrong label of space you want to examine. For example, if you want to know how much space is in the room - reality may be that what you define as room is covered garage without walls - so your result to your question will have no borders to measure - the measurement will take the whole yard to measure it or perhaps the entire continent.
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Yeah, there is third wave of CBT called DBT and it is more in the direction of Humanistic Psychology: to accept emotions instead of condemning them.
However it is still not clear why this part about toxic people is hidden .- we never get direction how to deal with hostile and difficult people in social situations. We are constantly told that we need to fix ourselves. That part is extremely disturbing.
For example, if Johnny Depp ignored his social anxiety and if he labelled his discomfort feelings as hallucination - he would be broke now, with bankruptcy, his career would be over and fans would label him as abuser.
Instead he documented the abuse and chose self advocacy instead and thus he beat manipulation from toxic person.
In the same way I see classical CBT as horrible and misguiding therapy for social anxiety - where it is accepted as the main default therapy for social anxiety by official medical community.
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(8.6.2022)
We live in deception, deceptive world which appears as 50s America to us due to manipulation and our own brain's desire to avoid feeling hurt and pain by recognizing that there are toxic people out there. So, Learning about narcissism is learning about true reality and how to wiggle and navigate through it without getting hurt or exploited. If we do not have this knowledge, we will self blame and develop mental illness, and official medical community will join in the bandwagon and self-pathologize our symptoms of abuse and our reaction to the abuse. Official medical community will label our symptoms as hallucination (classical CBT has ABC model that says that our discomfort we will feel around toxic people is our illusion). If Johnny Depp ignored his panic symptoms, he would now file for bankruptcy, be broke, his career would end and he would be labeled as abuser by the whole world due to deceit and manipulation of Amber.
mayoclinic definition of panic is: "A panic attack is a sudden episode of intense fear that triggers severe physical reactions when there is no real danger or apparent cause." There is absolutely no advice how to recognize nor how to deal with real danger and apparent cause in the form of manipulative, altruistic narcissists like Amber. This is because we live in narcissistic society that is run by Epsteins and Weinsteins in managerial seats, keeping us blind to the abuse and deceit.
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"But when you learn to calm triggers, and re-regulate your emotions, you can take some risks." For me personally, I discovered that learn to calm trigger and re-regulate is equated to learning about narcissistic abuse - to become aware of it and to learn how to retort to toxic people. This education and learning how to defend against abuse helps a lot to feel secure and to lean on my adventure side to be active. This is not about accept or move away from narcissist. This is more deeper. This is about realizing that we live in deceptive world and many people have predatory personalities. with abuse and empathy we tend to self blame and this adds up to be struck and stuck with toxic people - and deepens abuse. There is actually a way to retort toxic people without drama and explosions, without accusations and trying to change them. This information how to do it is very hidden, and perhaps it is very expensive to learn, so it is not available to public? It is about realizing that Epsteins and Weinstens are holding the managerial seats and their money keep us enslaved in the matrix - and they use self blame to keep us under the veil that we are abnormal and we are hallucinating their abuse.
Imagine if Johnny Depp decided to stay with Amber or leave her- In both cases he would end up broke with bankruptcy, he would lose the court, he would be labelled as abuser by the whole world and his career would be over. Instead he learned how to retort to toxic person in healthy manner. This information we need to learn, and this will help us heal complex Trauma which was caused by toxic abusive people in the first place.
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I like this quote from the book: "Plato's explanation for this is that we all possess immortal souls which have had a previous existence, so that all learning is really just “recollection”, or anamnesis. Introducing Philosophy by Dave Robinson, Judy Groves "
This applies to healing from trauma, too. When we heal trauma in the same time we are re-parenting ourselves, we are giving birth to ourselves, and we are growing ourselves, we are travelling through time and we help our arrested development stage to learn how to deal with abuse and toxic people in healthy manner, without drama, without explosions, without self blame, without self-censorship, without panic and without catastrophizing. We are forming our persona - which the more healthier it is, it is our higher dimensional form - that knows how to deal and manage difficult people. Trauma ruptured this process of learning how to live with love. With abuse and toxic people - we are learning about evil - something that as healthy and normal people we never experienced in our true ideal form from which we came and where we will end after this life if over.
Healing trauma means educating ourselves about evil, human evil - how to recognize it in order to become aware of it that it exists, and how to react to it in healthy and functional and "normal" manner, it is learning about facts of life that actions is equal to mistake, and thus mistakes are normal part of life. That the only thing that is abnormal is hurting and causing pain to anyone, including ourselves (self blame). Our brain is unable to process the pain, so our brain is unable to learn about evil and consequently it does not know how to recognize evil nor how to defend against it in healthy manner. That is our job here, that we learn how to deal with evil after we become aware of it. That is healing from trauma.
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I would dig this much deeper. Expectations are based on other people - toxic people. We either learn to be perfectionist from untreated mentally ill people around us OR we are punished and conditioned to have unrealistic expectations, as a way to people please abusive psychopaths who impose their expectations on us through gaslighting.
So yeah, you are absolutely correct to be aware it is most probably parents - being exposed to unrealistic, relentless criticism 24/7. And I would not leave it only to our caregivers. Usually it is more of toxic people - since we do live in narcissistic society run by Epsteins and Weinsteins in managerial seats. As you said it in the video at 4:50
This actually gives us an important clue that deserves our attention: that expectations are not our choice - even though they appear to us, from our egocentric viewpoint as our fault. This is road to depression and being stuck in pureOCD intrusive worry loops where we will try to get rid of expectations, when they will crop everywhere like weed.
Once we identify toxic people as the true cause of our expectations- we can realize that some toxic people are toxic because they feel ego supplied by abusing others, while there are toxic people who do not know better, since no one talked about this subject - instead they go through live watching Reality TV crap for example.
I see that these toxic people target our mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge - and on our side we want to be good, nice and never hurt anyone - so we will feel irrational guilt when we make a mistake. Toxic people will join. the band wagon of our self-blame and criticize our mistakes, flaws and ignorance. They will describe it as our aggression on them - and we will try to keep up the expectations to be good nice person who is not making any mistake - since we are hypnotized not to cause pain to anyone. So these parasites are parasiting on our natural healthy urge inside us to be good and kind person. That mechanism is behind our unreasonable expectations.
Once we know the hidden mechanisms behind our expectations - natural solution is: that we allow our mistakes. That we allow to be "bad" sometimes, especially if we are constantly nice, kind, people pleasing, and receptive and self-censoring ourselves. That we embrace our flaws, no matter if we get rejected or mocked for them by others. To realize that we are not gods, so we cannot know everything, especially if we are novice at something that we didn't know how to to in the best way.
Also this tells us - that when we will remove unreasonable expectations that this is connected with us being prepared to have money - since we will get fired when we stand up for ourselves. We will be attacked so we have to be prepared that our embracing not being perfect will trigger narcissistic injury in toxic mentally ill people. They will become full of rage and antagonistic. We have to be aware that this will be byproduct of us being normal human being accepting our mistakes and flaws and being totally fine with them.
As you said in the video - this also means that we compassion toward people who are not perfect themselves, and ironically this included toxic people who will hurt us for us being kind and nice and still loving ourselves when we make mistakes.
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I learned that the best therapy is learning about narcissistic abuse and learning how to deal with difficult, manipulative, deceptive, aggressive, hysterical toxic people. The more we have knowledge about abuse that was the cause of trauma in the first place - the more our brain we will feel safe in the abusive and sick world that is run by Epsteins and Weinsteins.
IF we self pathologize our symptoms - as CBT instructs us - we will destroy our self worth and thus we will develop toxic shame, which means staying stuck in trauma. This is the reason why CBT should be banned. Blaming the victim for the abuse is the abuse itself.
If we are instructed that we are abnormal and weird because of our symptoms - this is abuse - and it is lie. All people are prone to bias, logical fallacies and quick jumping to conclusions. Cognitive distortions are not endemic to traumatized individuals.
"desensitize it" Just imagine what would happen if Johnny Depp decided to view his symptoms of abuse from Amber as hallucination and distortion and that he decided to desensitize himself to abuse. He would be broke now, he would file for bankruptcy, he would be labelled as abuser by the whole world and his career would be over for the rest of his life. Instead he did the healthy thing - instead of self blame, he documented the abuse and he retort to abuse - in the court - and he proven his innocence with scientific evidence that he was abused.
The more we know about abusers and more we know how to handle and discover toxic people and deceit - the more healthier we will be and we will be able to heal our trauma.
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"constructive embarrassment is an exercise when you put yourself in embarrassing situation on purpose." Ok, what happens when we have to deal with toxic and manipulative people? Let me put it this way - if Johnny Depp decided that he has to deal with low confidence by putting himself in more situations with Amber, he would be broke now, he would file for bankruptcy, he would be labelled as abuser by the whole world and his career would be over. So this putting yourself in toxic situations will not magically solve toxic results, it will make them worse.
"By learning how to deal with feelings of shame in these moments, you will learn how to deal with feelings of shame in any moment by facing your fear of rejection." Ok, but perhaps - our feelings of shame are not problem at all? How about this radical realization? What is our only problem are toxic people who are manipulative, altruistic narcissist who appear as help but they really put us down in order for them to fill narcissistic void inside and to cover their jealousy for you being the better and healthier*?
"Ask for super small condoms" How this help in situation when we are in abnormal situations which we must be in (due to job, security, finances, help, third parties) such as this: Is it normal that you are yelled at when you need service? Is it normal that person will ignore you when you need help from them and it is their job to help? Is it normal that the other people has inappropriate outbursts of anger? Should we ignore it and pretend it does not bother us and thus keep enabling the narcissistic abuse to continue?
"embrace you are sitting on the floor or starbuck" "Embrace the challenge" ok, this is fear of making a fool of yourself, but this does not answer the feelings of self doubt that toxic people put on us when we make mistake that they present as aggression against them, and they present our mistake as the proof we are unworthy and unnaceptable. What then? What to do when toxic people accuse us for our flaws - internal or external, inside our control or outside of our control, however we are normal healthy person who tries not to make mistake and hurt anyone - yet somehow we are manipulated and gaslighted by Machiavellians, narcissists, abusers, psychopaths that our flaws are hurting them and we must repay the damage to them? What then? How will our challenges of sitting in Starbucks help us in this situation when we are manipulated by untreated mentally ill people?
We need to realize that our lack of confidence comes only and only from toxic people who are abusing others, who are manipulating others - and that the only thing we need to learn is to recognize toxic people, learn the red flags - so that we know virus is real. Then natural next step is to learn how to deal with toxic people in normal, healthy, functional and proper way - without wars, without explosions, without drama.
"I can do anything in life" Until you meet someone like Amber. Then you end up homeless and rejected by society and falsely accused as being abuser. Then your embarrassing challenges will not help you.
Embarrassment is not sick emotion. Shyness is not pathology. We live in sick narcissistic society that tell us that we must wear narcissistic mask - that we must be perfectionist and that we are entitled - that we must gain admiration and attention from all people - by being fine with feeling embarrassment.
So your advice is half baked and it does not help really, it does not address confidence - it only address overcompensation and enabling of toxic people - who are true cause of low confidence inside us.
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@Hybrid MA Swe Let's examine it more closely. Mayoclinic defines panic attack as: "A panic attack is a sudden episode of intense fear that triggers severe physical reactions when there is no real danger or apparent cause." What happens when there is real danger or apparent cause? CBT explains to socially anxious people that their anxiety is hallucination. So, what happens when you are in contact with Amber and you self-pathologize your fears as hallucination? You will literally end up broke, accused of being abuser and you will lose your career.
Self-pathologizing is bad idea, it leads to mental illness.
Desentization - we do not need it. We are already "desentisized". Each abuse makes us being aware of toxic people. This is automatic, this is how our brain is working. There is no pathology here. Without this ability, we would be extinct as species. To feel anxiety and fear is totally normal evolutionary way that humans are evolving. You are simply getting sharper and more clever and more wiser in recognizing toxic people. CBT labels this as being "over-sensitive" and that you need to cure this by de-sensization. So they pathologize totally normal human emotions and they do not offer any concrete advice how to deal with toxic people.
Instead - they instruct you to ignore your fears, red alarms and that you expose yourself to toxic people. As if exposing to Chernobyl radiation will magically make you immune to radiation.
Think about it more deeply. We live in sick, narcissistic world full of deceit and medical community that ought to help us are making us sick and profit from sickness that they instruct us to feel.
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Toxic people are the cause of all disorder. We are being told by mental community (CBT) that we are hallucinating abuse. Official definition of panic attack by mayoclinic is: "A panic attack is a sudden episode of intense fear that triggers severe physical reactions when there is no real danger or apparent cause. " There is not explanation what happens when there is real danger or apparent cause? We are not being instructed how to deal with real danger and toxic people, narcissists, Machiavellians, emotional vampires, parasites... instead we are being told that we are hallucinating the abuse. There is ABC model that states that our thoughts are creating the abuse and that we are delusional. We are being explained that we have cognitive distortions as proof of this hallucination issue - while in reality all people are biased, every human being has confirmation bias, every being is prone to quick shortcuts and oversimplifications - otherwise we would not be able to move in this life - if we would need a year to process all available data about some event or situation and then come to the right conclusion. The world is not working like that - everyone is hallucinating their reality by jumping to quick conclusions. This is not endemic for people who are feeling fears and anxiety due to being exposed to toxic people.
When we listen to CBT, we will self-pathologize our emotions and feelings and thoughts - and this will destroy our self worth. And without self worth we will develop toxic shame. And with toxic shame, we will develop external reference locus of control - where other people will control us easily, since we distrust our opinion and we seek external validation and approval and their explanation how to define anything in life.
This realization that toxic people are true and only cause of disorder will be revolutionary. We will be able to detect untreated mentally ill people who are psychopaths much easily. Right now, we are being instructed that our "distorted" thoughts are the only problem and that we have to expose ourself to abuse and toxic people in order to gain magically immunity to be "de-sentisized".
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Just remember that if you are kind person, if you do not have any ill wish against people , even to your abusers, if you have no hidden agenda to exploit others and cause them hurt nor pain -that there is absolutely nothing wrong with you. There is no pathology here. Fears and anxiety are not pathology. They are trauma from being exposed to psychopaths, narcissists, Machiavellians. Once we understand this, we will get clear on life and how to handle difficult situations and difficult people - who are creating disorder. Right now we are being explained by media and official medical community (CBT) that we are ill, that we are hallucinating threat and that through ABC model that we are creating the abuse with our own thoughts. This is all lie. That is not true.
Toxic people are real. Their abuse is real. They are the only problem of all psychology issues we might have. Not us.
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"victim mentality" I would not use self-pathology as tool to heal our fears and anxiety, guilt or shame. That is wrong alley. Self pathologizing our emotions, and experiences of abuse will destroy our self worth. Without self worth we will develop toxic shame. With toxic shame we will develop external reference locus of control where other people will control us and we will seek their approval and we will depend on other people explanations how we feel and what should we do with our life. Please, do not use self-pathology on people - it is unfair and incredibly dangerous for person who might be suicidal due to exposure to toxic people. It simply does not help. The person will not magically become motivated to "stop feeling abused". Abuse is not our fault. Abuse is done by mentally ill people who are aggressive, psychopaths and narcissists. This is not our hallucination.
"We don't take responsibility" Perhaps this is because we do not have money to relocate? Perhaps this is because we might be punished and attacked if we try? What then?
"we are taught to do this to other people" Nope. This is untrue statement. Most healthy normal kind people will never ever guilt trip other people. This is because they are not narcissists. Only narcissists do this. That is what makes them narcissist. If we lump toxic people with healthy population and then draw quick conclusion - it is road to logical fallacy and deceit.
"parents do this all the time to make themselves bad about this" This is dangerous generalizing. This is actually done only in dysfunctional homes. this is Complex Trauma. This is not done in normal, healthy homes. Normal healthy parent would never make their child feel bad - since they have working amygdala and they are not psychopaths without empathy.
"control over people" This is narcissistic trait. Not all people decide to have control over other people. Only psychopaths do. So you are actually programming us to feel irrational guilt - you are telling us that we all control other people. While in reality we don't. We, normal and healthy people feel empathy which prevent us to exploit other people and treat other people as trash.
"There is no room for guilt and shame" I do not like where this is going. Guilt is normal emotion. Irrational guilt is problem. Shame is totally normal emotions. Toxic shame is huge problem. You are lumping good and bad together, you are fusing good and helpful emotions with toxic ones. If we make mistake, it is normal to feel guilt - if we ran over someone with our bike. Without this guilt we would not stop and see if we can help them and tell them sorry. If we label our guilt and shame as sickness and remove them from our life, we would become psychopath, narcissist, Jordan Peterson, Trump, Putin. We need guilt and shame - to know that we are not gods. We are human beings. The only problem is irrational guilt and toxic shame that is caused by toxic people who are not feeling any guilt and shame.
I think you need to study this concept more deeply. Without guilt and shame we will become criminals.
"Brain imaging has shown that lying and repeated deception reduces activity in the amygdala. This reduction can limit the feelings of shame or guilt that are often associated with lying. DK The Crime Book"
So basically you are telling that Amber should not feel guilt and shame, and toxic people like her are entitled to accuse famous actor to be abuser and invent the abuse - since it is ok not to feel guilt and shame?
"I don't do guilt anymore" Guilt is part of our brain, it is situated in amygdala. Perhaps we might do lobotomy, to remove parts of our brain that are responsible for undesired emotions?
"processing it and getting clear view" Well, perhaps this will shock you - but ability to process anything and to get clear view - is actually the same part of brain that has guilt and shame. We need guilt and shame to process anything in life and to get clear view. Without guilt and shame we will create delusional world, full of egocentric distorted view of life - where we are allowed to rob other people, to sniff cocaine, to have orgies, to steal from people and go on mass shooting rampage when we feel bored or angry.
"Spiritual being" Spirit and spirituality goes with the same package as guilt and shame. Sorry for the bad news.
"Self love" also to feel self love you need both guilt and shame. Same package.
I think you are confusing concepts of irrational guilt and toxic shame - you label it as guilt and shame.
"move negative energy" By removing guilt and shame we will invite Satan energy in our body.
"You can soft wire this" Again, without guilt and shame you cannot do anyting in any higher cortex part of brain. You will be cornered and under bell jar of satisfying basic human needs - and narcissists always end up parasiting over normal and healthy people who are feeling guilt and shame and they are parasiting on healthy people sense of guilt and shame.
"Clairvoyant, guidance" Again, all these come with guilt and shame included in the package. Without it you will hallucinate and create mentall illness and schizophrenia where you are dictator, similar to the movie Cell with JLo where she enters into mind of serial killer who feels no guilt nor shame.
"You will not attract shame people" Yep. you will become parasite and you will parasite over easy targets: kind and nice people who are too kind to dump your toxic ass goodbye.
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"listen what my heart saying,"
Yep, it comes down to listen to your instinct, gut feeling. There is warning though. When we stand up to toxic people 1) we need money. We will be fired from our jobs for speaking the truth and not being toxic. so we will need to relocate which leads to the next point 2) we need to be willing to relocate. With trauma this part is difficult because toxic people destroyed our self worth. We have toxic shame inside and toxic shame makes us to develop external reference locus of control and trauma bonding where we see ourselves as inferior and we see other people - especially toxic ones as superior and we seek their approval and we develop codependency with them. That is hard to break until we realize we can trust ourselves and our heart even when mistaken, flawed and or ignorant (which toxic people label as unacceptable and unworthy = thus we get stuck with toxic shame when we believe their toxic labels).
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With social anxiety, Classical CBT in its system is wired to explain the fears and anxiety as hallucination. They use ABC Model that says that if you feel anxiety from toxic people - that only problem is your own mind that is distorting reality with cognitive distortions to feel discomfort when you are being abused.
The irony and paradox is that actual step by step advice how to deal toxic people would help both people who are "hallucinating" their abuse and people who are truly in abusive situation. There is absolutely no advice from official medical resources how to detect toxic people and there is no advice how to handle and manage toxic people in any manner, that is helpful, healthy and functional. Nothing. Nada- Instead there is only self-pathology and self blame: that our panic symptoms are problem and we should feel calm when we are abused and attacked by psychopathic people. And if we feel scared when someone is rude, aggressive and manipulative - that we are hallucinating the attack and abuse.
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@Hybrid MA Swe " if you are stuck in an extreme situation, over time, you get desensitized and dissociated to the extreme" From my experience, no. Nope.
I never got sensitized to rude people and criminal behaviour (stealing and corruption at workplace, hysteria, mood swings and inappropriate outbursts of anger).
Instead I developed people pleasing, fawning response and being pushover, I self censored myself, shut up when being accused of untrue and unjust things. That is what CBT is doing to people - they are turning them into philosophical zombie, NPC Wojak - a person without perks, quirks, opinions, without emotions, without particularities and peculiarities. This happens because CBT does not explain concept such as moral injury - being exposed to toxic people and witnessing their abuse and crime - without you being able to do anything about it. CBT never explains external reference locus of control. This concept is hidden away. There is no explanation about toxic shame - and why toxic shame develops and how toxic shame turns into trauma bonding and Stockholm Syndrome. This part is completely in the dark with CBT. Instead, CBT explains that the only problem are your emotions and panic symptoms and feeling discomfort. Official mayoclinic definition for panic says that the panic is hallucination and delusion: "A panic attack is a sudden episode of intense fear that triggers severe physical reactions when there is no real danger or apparent cause."
Problem is when we decide to zoom into our feelings of fear and anxiety, and decide to label it as cognitive distortion - we will destroy our self worth, and we will develop toxic shame. Then toxic shame will activate inferiority complex - and this leads to external reference locus of control - where I see myself as abnormal and unacceptable - where other people (people who apparently do not have fears) appear as competent, superior and better - so I decide to listen their opinions as if it is absolute truth in the universe, and their words, definitions, conclusions are command and order.
In reality, cognitive distortions are not endemic to scared people. All people are prone to bias and quick prejudgments and oversimplifications and confirmation bias, this is condition for all human beings. This part CBT does not explain at all. CBT only pinpoints mistakes and flaws at person who is feeling scared and anxious. This way CBT is doing more damage than good, and it should be banned.
What you label as "de-sentization" is what I call "acquiring the knowledge how to retort". This is actually the task of psychology. This means, that we learn how to defend ourselves, in proper, healthy and functional manner, without wars, without explosions, without drama. What I learned from my experience - this information is very hard to extract - and mostly I learned it on my own.
I guess this information is expensive and reserved for rich people who can pay the proper treatment.
For example, for years I was convinced that I have only 2 options to deal with rude and hysterical people. 1) that I engage in fight response, drama and explosions or 2) that I shut up, people please, fawn and self censor myself.
Well, there is actually the third option - to say without hostility: "I disagree with you". And that I cut contact if the person is aggressive. CBT does not gives us examples like these. CBT instead instruct us to expose to toxic people and difficult situations - as if we will learn by ourselves how to handle difficult situations. We won't. We need guidance - general advice and support to believe in ourselves that we are capable. With pathologizing our fear symptoms as sickness and distortion, we will never believe in ourselves that we have capacity and ability to deal with anything in life.
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(9.6.2022)
"If you are compassionate you will sacrifice to people 98 percent of time" As usual he is over-simplifying and generalizing people. So he is not psychologist, he has secret agenda and he is manipulating people. Truth is that he is describing fawning, people pleasing and being pushover - which is trauma response. People fawn to others due to abuse and being exposed to narcissistic abuse and narcissistic people like him. This is not illness, being in trauma is not sickness, it is not person's choice to be abused. Mocking the fawn response is damaging and his license ought to be removed. He is toxic person. You handle people pleasing as trauma - with compassion and understanding, not by pathologizing it. He is literally instructing people to become Karen, to express your anger without filter and without empathy. He is building up narcissism, he is instructing people to become narcissist.
"problem is you will sacrifice yourself" People are fawning because they are preventing the abuse. It is pre-emptive strike to evade toxic person's assault. So the true problem is mentally ill person who is aggressive on the other side. People pleaser is reacting to abuse, aggression, toxic action from narcissist inside narcissistic abuse. People do not have money to relocate neither to change jobs nor to escape. So they are forced to stay with the abuse and abusers - and then the only way to survive is to fawn. So we need information how to handle abusive people in situations when you cannot escape them. He is not explaining this - he instead is pathologizing victims of abuse as they are hallucinating the abuse. That is because he is toxic person, without empathy, without clue what normal healthy person is.
"for adult males is wrong approach" Well, if you stand up to abuser - who is labelling as "adult male" generalizing all males as abusers here, is that abuser will fire you from your job. He will back stab you. He will abuse you. He will gaslight you, abusers will make smear campaign because they demand obeyance and servitude, since they are sick. So he is not identifying nor detailing the psychopaths here - instead he is blaming the victims of sociopaths and Machiavellians. HE does not do this to help - he is instructing scared victims to be even more scared- because is keeping the secret that "adult male" is abuser and that not all males are abusers. We have dark psychology here - example of manipulation, lies and hypnosis - in living example how politicians and marketing are twisting our brains in wrong direction - to feel self blame and to serve toxic people.
"You will be taken advantage continually by people who looking for someone like you" Well, why don't you label these people as narcissist, toxic person, Machiavellian, parasite, emotional vampire, psychopath, sociopath? This is why:
"Until you grow some teeth" He is instructing victims of abuse to become abusers themselves. To be come monster. This is horrible and abusive advice. You cannot fight mentally ill person with knife in their hand by provoking them more. You will make situation worse - even the most stupid person knows this fact. Just horrible ,toxic person with mental illness is hypnotizing society to become narcissistic and abusive.
"you'll think that's (growing teeth) is opposite from compassion" Again, he is hypnotizing us to direct us what we think. We do not think this at all. When a lunatic person tell us that we must behave as monsters and criminals, all normal and healthy people are immediately think that this will lead to someone getting hurt and that we might end up in jail - if we hurt someone by protecting ourselves. Toxic people are excellent at blaming the victim for when they defend themselves - just look at Amber how she almost destroyed Johnny Depp. If Johnny Depp listened to JP's advice to grow teeth: Johnny Depp would be now broke, filing bankruptcy, he would be labeled as abuser by the whole world, he would lose his fans like Bill Cosby and his career would be dead.
"Being able to bite hard is opposite of compassion" Instead of this toxic advice, we only need to be able to express our opinion and to speak the truth, that is all. Truth is radical and truth is causing others to feel cognitive dissonance - that part hurts, that part bites: to speak our truth. Without drama, without wars, without explosions.
"until you bring that out of depths" Horrible advice, he is instructing people to become narcissist, Karen, borderline lunatics, his license ought to be revoked. What he is doing here is that he is teaching people to become serial killers.
"That is Nietzsche idea of revaluation of Good and Evil" Toxic people use a lot of hypnosis and rationalizations. Here he is using Nietzsche to justify the abuse and dark psychology and his narcissism. He is literally lying and hypnotizing the audience who never read Nietzsche so you believe JP's rationalizations, common tool for gaslighting people. Nietzsche never condoned to abuse. Nietzsche never said that abuse is ok. Nietzsche's sister falsified his documents after he died in order to make Nietzsche into monster. Nietzsche was not monster. This is abusing Nietzsche as a tool to justify being abuser and narcissist as something normal and cool. Nietzsche said: Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed. So Nietzsche did not instruct people to bite nor to grow teeth to bite. Instead, Nietzsche said that speaking the truth is our only weapon that can hurt people who are abusive and toxic.
There are better alternatives to Jordan Peterson: Dan Ariely Robert Greene Adam Grant Leslie Greensberg
Jordan Peterson has mental issues and he is narcissist. He is prone to jumping to quick solutions which are always wrong due to confirmation bias, and also he has issues with toxic masculinity - which he use to hypnotize young men into narcissism and he is directing young men to funnel natural masculinity into Karen hysterical borderline aggression - which is not masculine nor macho at all - it is tyrannical and parasitical, since you will feed of "weak" people instead of making your own food. He is quack.
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This is example as said in video, for people who are having relationship with their boss who listen to them. Aka someone reasonable.
"What sort of damage we let ourselves in for letting know "we can't do this" - you're somewhat trying to protect all of us at the same time - decent start for interaction."
Ok, You are saying that we make it clear that we are doing our best to take all interest in consideration... but this still does not answer what you do when someone is hysterical and stubborn and still force you to do something that is unreasonable and out of your control..?
Truth is that the only problem are narcissists who are stubborn - and who cannot take no for answer. And this means only one thing- if someone is continually forcing us into situations which are beyond normal - that we have only one option - to leave.
And this means - that being assertive demands from us : 1) to have money - to support our relocation and changing jobs 2) that we are not greedy and that we are not trying to impress other people with out expenses and spending money on things we do not need 3) that we need to have ability to leave comfort zone as soon as we are recognizing that we are stuck in toxic environment - someone who is tyrannical, criminal and abnormal.
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What happens when the other person is stubborn or violent? What happens when we need something and this person does not like us and refuse our request - even when it is their job to help us?
Why we never get answer to this concrete question, and instead we are always instructed to self-pathologize ourselves, self blame and find flaws about us that we somehow need to "fix" - while in reality it helps nothing about someone who is toxic.
"We can't be impolite misconception" So.. we become Karen? What would happen if Johnny Depp was impolite to Amber - he would file bankruptcy now, society would label him as abuser and his career would be over. So advice to become monster is really crappy instruction that does not work in real life.
"Being assertive is communicating your honest thoughts, feelings and opinions in transparent way" What happens when there is toxic person manipulative on the other side who is collecting our vulnerability data and use it against ourselves? Can we get more clarification about that? What happens when we are being vulnerable and then exploited because of it? Half baked advice is damaging as outright wrong advice.
"the other person has right to disagree with you" This is vague. What disagree means? Does disagree means throwing violent temper tantrums as reaction to our truth? How to deal with those? Why we never get answer what to do when someone exploded when they disagree. We never get instruction how to deal with someone who is behaving like child - how to , what to say then. Again, half baked advice is deception and manipulation. We are instructed to expose ourselves but we never get answer what happens when there is rain. This looks to me like cheep ad for marketing that takes away our time and energy, to tell us some general impractical things that does not work in real life - and we are actually being exploited by Machiavellians, crooks who are exploiting our needs to find out about fears that we struggle with and end up listening to someone speaking rubbish that does not work in real life.
What happens when someone has inappropriate outburst of anger when they disagree with us? What happen then? What we do then? How are we assertive then? What steps we take then? What happens when borderline on the other side is enjoying drama and our explanations and our "truths"? What happens when narcissist is having their need met by us trying to solve puzzles that they throw at us? Do we keep talking and being assertive to them? When they gaslight us and make accusations? We keep being assertive and talk our truth? Nope. Then talking does not work at all. Why we do not get this information in assertive videos - how to handle difficult people? Because you do not know. You only know how to self blame us, how to self pathologize our emotions, how to make general statements - and then offer course or books that we must buy and thus finance your life.
"if you are not using offensive language" What about other person. What if they use offensive language. And no, you cannot leave. What then? What happens when you cannot go away and run away. How you are assertive then? Can we get answer to this question?
"Aggressiveness is different, I talk about this in master class" Oh really. So we have to pay to get any information that might be useful. How nice. Until then we are self blamed and left to feel self-pathology for being nice, kind, normal and healthy person who is trying to get along with people.
"If you are not rude simply conveying your ideas is not impolite" Why are you telling us this? We know this information! The abusive and toxic people refuse to hear this. We have no information how to make others realize this. And you pay masterclass so that we learn how. ok.
"I feel obliged, someone asks to do for them" Again, what happens when we get fired? When we get punished? When we are being threatened? Then it is not hallucination. You do not address when there is real threat of being homeless. You are evading the real issues and real world and you are using CBT method to make us feel self-blame and self-pathologize us. This is criminal behaviour. Stop it!
"Then say no" ok. what happens when the other person bursts in anger, when they make threat, when they stab us in back. When they behave irrationally? What then, Sherlock?
"You end up resenting this person" Again, you are using self blame and self pathologizing ourselves. Nope, I do not end up resenting. I end up with trauma when someone is behaving like psychopath and when someone is unreasonable. Why are you putting emotions inside our minds and hypnotizing us with emotions which we do not have? This is criminal behaviour, you are using dark psychology here on us.
"You will carry this resentment in every interaction" Nope. This is not resentment. This is knowledge and experience that you were in abusive contact with someone. What happens is that our brain archive this experience as danger . since brain is built to protect us. This is not resentment. You are falsifying our emotions and putting wrong label on them - this way you are creating mental illness in other people because you label wrong emotions and lead people astray. When we are abused, we are getting wiser, and our brain will signal similar events in the future that there is something painful there. This is not resentment. This is learning, brain is trying to learn how to retort to toxic people in functional and normal and healthy manner. This is not resentment. This is brain's attempt to learn how to process abuse and toxic people and find out information how to handle in the future similar situations. But as we already know, you charge this expensive information in your special class. God knows what else emotional mislabeling are you using there to lead people astray.
"you could even become fearful that they'll going to ask you to do another favor" Yep. That is normal brain working. It suppose to work that way. This is not resentment. This is not pathology here. There is nothing to fix here. Our task is to learn how to handle toxic people and deceptive people like you - so that we know in the future how to handle people like narcissists, Machiavellians, parasites, emotional vampires, quacks and crooks masked as altruistic narcissist.
"Identify the benefit, what's in it for you, what you are going to get our by doing this favor" Narcissism. and egocentrism- horrible advice, What happens when we get fired for saying no. You keep evading to light that dark area - which is common and it happens in real world. IT would be normal to ask what is catastrophe, what is the worst case scenario if I decline.
"They won't like me" This is linked to toxic shame. You do not mention this at all. This means you have no idea what you are talking about. Sorry to be honest, but you are fake. Problem with fake people is that you appear as someone who is talking sense and that we ought to listen people who are loud and have marketing - but self blame and self pathology will make us live in hypervigilance, anxiety and depression and we will not have idea what we feel this way.
"We get walked over for our fear of not being liked" False and untrue statement. We get walked over because we are punished and threatened by toxic fake people who feel entitled to walk over other people and who are psychopaths so they have no empathy to feel neither guilt nor shame. That is the only reason.
The world is filled with horrible toxic people like you misleading people with false information. Just horrible and disgusting.
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Don't listen to her. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you. You already are assertive, The only problem is trauma - where we were exposed to narcissistic abuse and now we do not know how to recognize toxic people - and we do not know how to retort to them. Fortunately, there are plethora videos about narcissism so you can recognize them. Problem is that we will attract toxic people because we are nice, kind, healthy and we want truth in life, no deception and lies. Toxic people are great at masking themselves as saviours and they offer themselves as solution to our inability to detect toxic people. As soon as you start to work on your awareness how to detect toxic people - your eyes will open up and you will solve all your issues.
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"I want to be happy - that should be the first" Yep, this is self worth. Without self worth we are cripples. We will develop trauma bonding and we will distrust our opinions - and we will become slaves and codependent, filled with toxic shame - if we do not believe in our abilities and capabilities. Toxic people remove this from us. toxic people label and speak evil - and we believe them since they package it as altruistic narcissism, and we believe they are helping us. Our need and urge to connect with other people is exploited by toxic people who pretend to give us validation and approval - while in fact they self blame us and self pathologize us - and we end up without love for ourselves, since we are convinced we are guilty, abnormal for being nice and kind and open, healthy and friendly.
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(10.6.2022)
Teachers say "be bigger person" because they are cowards and afraid of taking responsibility and confront the bullies parents, so they take the easy way and ignore toxic people and pass on the responsibility on someone else. Every bully is the indicator that society gave up their hands on them so the people in charge who are in authority to correct psychopaths never actually stand up to them due to any reason (authority being narcissistic) - and now the bully train hit you.
Fight and aggression is not the answer because it does not resolve the issue and it makes you addicted to more hysteria. With time this turns into being a Karen which is not masculine at all: because with time that fight response devolves into over-reacting to anything.
We live in sick narcissistic society that explains to us that there are only two ways to stand up for ourselves: 1) to fight, to be monster, to show teeth, to be hysterical, explosions, drama and wars OR 2) being passive, being pushover, self-censor and shut up.
But there is third option, we can actually see bully as mentally ill person. You would not go into arguments or fights with a lunatic, would you? IT is useless, this person is crazy, they live in imaginary world. We can actually say I disagree with you and walk away, cut contact. It is our explanations that mess us up - being afraid of being labelled as coward or that others do not see us as society defines being masculine. That leads to over-compensation and external validation, where we base our actions and decisions on what we expect the other people would approve. That seeking validation from others ends up with first 2 options.
The third option is that we rely on our own common sense inside, what we know is good and normal. IF we are kind, nice, good person - we will know what to do, inside, we will have instruction and inner GPS.
Complex problem with violence and toxic people is that our brain is wired to keep us safe. So every bully incident will be flagged inside our brain as danger - which can turn into agoraphobia if we do not listen to our subconscious mind telling us that we need to prepare ourselves for the danger, that we need to be aware of danger - in functional, healthy manner.
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I would highlight toxic people concept here. IT is much important to become aware that inability to say no comes from being in contact with psychopath, narcissist. The problem therefore is not us. It is always bad idea to self-pathologize ourselves and label ourselves as people pleaser. We have diplomatic skills. We have empathy. We have ability to put ourselves in other people shoes - as you said in video, we do not want to hurt anyone's feelings. That is normal. That is healthy. People actually pay a lot of money to acquire these skills. These are the basic of interdependence and communication skills that rich people pay a lot to learn, since without empathy their mind is wired to be egocentric - and they realize that a lot of issues are connected to inability to have diplomacy.
Being smart and treating ourselves with tremendous respect - for me it means that we are aware of toxic people. As kind, nice, friendly and open person - the fact of life is that we will attract toxic people like moth to a flame. So we actually need to develop our skills to learn how to recognize toxic people and learn how to retort.
"Check how we feel in our body" - again I would not go in the direction of self-pathology. Our body is ok. Our body is fine. There is nothing to check inside. The only thing to check is outside - to see what person is on the other side. Many people have predatory personalities - they never developed empathy so their only way to get anything in life is by exploiting other people.
Chances are - if someone cannot take no as answer and we are afraid of their hysterical reaction - this person is toxic.
"Assert yourself" - I see assertiveness as hoax. It is marketing ploy by narcissistic Machiavellians who are selling ideology. Please let me explain. We are normal kind friendly people. We communicate our needs and emotions and wants naturally. There is no other special way to communicate these. Toxic people cannot communicate, they want it to be only their way. So any conflict and confrontation - is not our fault. We are natural, honest and authentic all the time. So if we find ourselves that we need to "assert" ourselves - this is actually a red flag that we are in the presence of toxic person - who may be narcissists/psychopath or immature brat that is egocentric. This is important to realize - because if we self-pathologize our ability to communicate - and if we make ourselves feeling crazy - that we are inept to talk with people and that we must spend tons of money to pay self-help gurus to teach us how to be assertive - this is hoax. Because there is nothing to teach. We already have persona, personality inside us that is able to speak and communicate. The only problem are toxic people who are refusing to follow unwritten social norms and unwritten social etiquettes that we all learn in kindergarten and from our schools and environments where we learn how to talk with people.
What "assertiveness" movement actually tries to sell is hidden hard to extract data - how to handle toxic people. So it is very important to realize this distinction: that there is nothing wrong with us. There is absolutely nothing to fix or learn about our persona. The only thing that we need is to be aware of toxic people, toxic abuse and narcissistic abuse. So - instead of "assertiveness" we actually need to learn skills of therapist - who are handling mentally ill people who are demanding, entitled and aggressive. That is mindset that we need to change in our heads. Because we live in sick, narcissistic society, toxic Machiavellians who are convincing us that we are the problem, that we are people pleasers and that we are inventing the abuse and that we need to fix our fears, panic and anxiety symptoms that we feel when we are in contact with toxic person.
When we self-pathologize ourselves, we are actually destroying our self worth. We are hypnotizing ourselves in victim mode, we seek external approval and validation, we seek others to explain us what to do - and guess what - with toxic shame inside us (belief that we are inept to handle life and problems) - we will become codependent and we will attract toxic people. There are altruistic Narcissists who are presenting themselves as saviours to our problems and in the same time they exploit us and put us down covering this abuse with their honeymoon periods, validations and explanations that we are people pleasers and that we must assert ourselves and pay a lot of money to learn how to assert.
"9 out of 10 people will understand." This depends. IF we are in toxic environment, most people will be hysterical to our no.
I see if we have problem with saying no - this is the result of Complex trauma, where we were exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria and now as adults we are codependent (we try to fix other people's anger and soothe them) and we try to avoid hysterical people and their punishment, temper tantrum and anger and violence. Again, this is trauma response, this is not our fault. This is not something we can change at the press of button - by realizing it or saying myself I will say no from now on. Trauma heals with learning that abusive, toxic, violent incidents are flagged by our brain as danger - and our brain will want us to learn how to protect in the future against toxic people. So - we need to protect our energy, as you said in video - I see protect our energy as learning and educating ourselves about narcissistic abuse so that we can pre-emptively recognize it and remove it from our life if it is already present.
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"ask for what they want" This one is excellent tip. It targets the core problem - we will find out that all hysterical angry people: 1) do not know what they want, they do not know to describe it due to them being egocentric and, or 2) they are unrealistic and feel entitled because they are narcissistic, they want to exploit and take advantage. So it is good to make deep query - what they actually want and then we make clear statement what they can get, what they are entitled to get, what is fair to get.
That is the problem - toxic people are unreasonable. And Machiavellians lie and have hidden agenda to get more than they payed, they are thieves. Also some mentally ill people feel good when they create drama and then get high when they create chaos and see other people being afraid of them. So such psychopaths will highlight our mistakes, flaws or ignorance and present it like catastrophe or Armageddon. This means, that we need to change mindset - what we define as mistake and can we allow ourselves not to be perfectionist and even make mistakes deliberately to see what happens - if we are terrified of making mistakes (due to complex trauma issues). If we do not do this, we will live in hypervigilance state of PureOCD intrusive worry thoughts loop and anxiety.
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I see problems if the agent does not know if they are allowed to recompensate the customer - which leads to problem - what to do when customer is not right? When they either lie or ask for too much, when they demand something that they have no entitlement about. How to reject them? I guess this one is where we can't be pleasant and nice by fawning to them and appeasing them - when we cannot please them with anything. We can only ask what they want and then state what they can get. I see the problem - that we will be thrown into angry, hostile, non productive, toxic argument back and forth- if the customer is mentally ill, narcissist and thus stubborn and can't accept no as answer.
I guess the best solution to that angry person is "I'm sorry, if you are not able to accept it, it is useless to continue this conversation / I cannot continue this conversation anymore" and hang up? ;D
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I see it like this: Anxiety is red flag that there is danger, that brain decided something is dangerous. So the brain will try to communicate us by using unconsciousness to let us know that we need to do something about it. Educate about the trigger, learn more about it, learn how to recognize the cause of our fear as toxic, learn how to protect ourselves in the future.
The central point is that anxiety is not hallucination. There is a real threat out there that brain see as danger.
If I am afraid of presentation - the brain is obviously afraid of getting fired and being homeless, lack of money and home and resources and being on the street if there are no savings, and being put in vague situation of looking for another job or relocating. So the problem is not presentation. Obviously the brain wants us: 1) to save up money 2) to look if I feel pleasant at that job 3) perhaps to change job if I can get fired due to bad presentation (not because of my effort on the actual job). When I save up money, when I realize that I will not get realistically fired if my presentation will have mistakes - then I will naturally make anxiety soothe.
"See anxiety as series of negative spirals" I would rather see anxiety as natural brain way to seek and predict danger that help human species to evolve and to progress. There is a saying that crisis is opportunity. Exit is actually entrance to somewhere else.
"Make me progressively feel more anxious" And it should. That is totally normal way how brain is working, it means that our brain is functioning well. It only wants the best for us, to find place where we feel safe, psychological security. Just imagine if Johnny Depp ignored his anxiety when living with Amber. He would be abused by her, and when he decide to leave she would claim that he abused her. Instead Johnny Depp listened to his anxiety, he documented the abuse, he was proactive about his anxiety - and this helped him to win the court. If he ignored his anxiety as non relevant, he would be broke now, filing for bankruptcy, his career would be over and the world would label him as Bill Cosby - all because he'd ignore his anxiety.
"Break negative spirals that are fueling the anxiety" By changing our mindset. We start to see anxiety as communicating method by our brain, that brain is using Freud and Jung discovery of unconsciousness, autonomous entity that is inside us - and that has no way to talk to our logic by words - instead it uses anxiety, fear, panic, triggers, flashbacks, trauma to tell us what brain needs. This means, anxiety is good. It will not go away. It is way of talking by our unconsciousness how to manage and lead our life.
"We don't have control of our emotions" True, but we if we accept them and listen to them and see what we can do about our safety that is healthy and realistic - in this way we will control them. It is like making alliance with some unknown army force and forge military alliance with it to defend ourselves against danger. That way we will change how are we anxious.
For me personally, Jung discovery that unconsciousness live inside us is fantastic. We can see anxiety as undiscovered country inside us, that we need to explore, it is kind of an adventure. Anxiety can help us to change our life to lead more safe, happy, realistic, less egocentric life that is not greedy or money grabbing but content and peaceful.
With ignoring our anxiety we will force ourselves to get stuck with toxic people and trauma. And that will make anxiety worse.
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” ― Carl Gustav Jung.
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1:49 "discomfort in social settings" What they do not say is that this 'discomfort' is related to social settings that are not dangerous. This part is extremely important - however it is obfuscated by mental health industry - and this is kind of a hoax. Being unclear about social anxiety definition leads people astray: people who are abused and who are living with narcissistic abuse and toxic people. Since they will feel discomfort, the CBT will tell them that their anxiety is imaginary and hallucination.
Mayoclinic definition of panic is that we imagine panic: "A panic attack is a sudden episode of intense fear that triggers severe physical reactions when there is no real danger or apparent cause." There is no definition what is called when there is danger and apparent cause. So we deal here with perhaps the biggest blunder in psychology - it is huge example of herd mentality where "experts" are copy pasting the wrong basis and repeat it.
6:26 "heightened fear of social settings due to worry about potential scrutiny" We need to stop here - because if you are not careful - you will think that potential scrutiny is general scrutiny. You will think that they are talking about abusive people who are abusing you that you feel anxiety. Nope. The definition here is that you feel anxiety for example in empty room. Or in kindergarten. Or that you feel anxiety if you would be in a room with the most kindness and nicest person in the world. for example Oprah, or Gandhi or Mandela. That is social anxiety. If you feel anxiety with kind and nice people around you - and you fear that they might hurt you. This part is made unclear by medical community and thus they let people misdiagnose themselves.
People who are around toxic people, narcissists - will google their symptoms and they will not read the small prints about true definition of social anxiety. This way they will seek treatment and they will be "healed" for something that there is nothing to heal! CBT will make you spend money and time to fix your natural ability to feel uncomfortable around toxic people. And all because you did not read the small print in the description.
Social anxiety is hoax. If you read more about it, you would see that social anxiety is linked to paranoid disorder. That is because true definition of social anxiety is being afraid of kind and nice people. And we are not afraid of them. No one is. Only small, extremely small percentage of population will have delusions and feel fear from even kind and nice people. We are being mislead.
13:04 "Due to my childhood I am thinking what are they thinking about me" Yep. Instead of social anxiety - most people who google their symptoms or CBT misdiagnose them as social anxious - it is actually Complex Trauma behind it. Bully event that make us scared in social situations. This is trauma. And society is trigger that reminds us of our bully event, trauma. This is Complex Trauma. This is completely different issue than having paranoid fears of thinking that someone kind and nice and safe would want to hurt you - which is social anxiety by true definition.
So - social anxiety is misdiagnosis for many people who are actually suffering from complex trauma or CPTSD.
DSM states: "individuals with social anxiety disorder often overestimate the negative consequences of social situations, and thus the judgment of being out of proportion is made by the clinician." So the clinician ought to check are you afraid of all people - including the safe ones.
Now at this point it start to be really corrupt, that we live in sick, narcissistic society full of Machiavellians: because both paranoid (people who are afraid of safe people) and "socially anxious" people - would actually be healed by learning how to protect themselves, which means learn what is toxic, how to recognize toxic people and how to retort to them. Well, instead of this - CBT is instructing people who feel social anxiety to self-pathologize their own panic symptoms as hallucination and sickness. This created the mental illness - because CBT is instructing you to feel mentally ill by thinking that if you are abused that it is your hallucination.
ABC model from CBT basically states that our thoughts are creating the abuse - and that if we change our thinking, we will not be abused any more. CBT is accepted as default main therapy for social anxiety.
So this social anxiety is big, undiscovered blunder in psychiatry, that may end up with law suits of people who were misdiagnosed and treated in wrong way.
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Anxiety is a way that our brain wants to talk with us. It is Freud and Jung discovery, that we have unconsciousness inside us, it is autonomous entity inside us - and it comes onto surface, our awareness through anxiety.
Well, look at anxiety as a communication, hailing frequency by an alien, similar to Star Trek episode when they meet weird alien that is unable to get translated by their universal translator - so Picard learns their language. That is anxiety - it is entity that tries to communicate with us. Anxiety works like this: our brain is wired to keep us safe. It will observe life and detect the danger. So sometimes, it will label certain people as toxic. This happens because when we have bad experience with people - brain is archiving this knowledge into the black book of danger. This is totally normal way how the brain ought to work. This is proof that Darwin was correct - this anxiety is evolutionary mechanism that propel us to upgrade, to learn about danger and educate ourselves and seek ways how to be safe. That is anxiety - method to learn about life and how to protect yourself.
So anxiety will probably - once you listen to it - change your life. You will cut contact with toxic people. You will remove toxic habits. You will change mentality what good means. You will change priorities in life. You will stop being greedy and base your worth on money. Instead you will focus and built your life on more natural, healthy way that is pleasant to your brain and your environment around you - where there is no conflict or Karpman Drama Triangle. See anxiety as message from your brain. See what it wants and needs and how you can protect yourself in healthy, functional manner, instead of toxic, non productive methods.
“Knowing your own darkness is the best method for dealing with the darknesses of other people.” JUNG
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"What makes it sticky is rumination" I learned that there is motor behind rumination. It is actually external factor - something outside our mind: it is toxic people. People who nag. Criticize, who complain about smallest things. It is complex trauma - being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 in early age when we were growing up and we were suppose to learn how to build healthy, functional mind. Instead we were exposed to adult hysteria and invalidation, And now we are stuck with intrusive worries.
I see intrusive thoughts as Jung and Freud discovery of unconsciousness. It is autonomous part of our brain that tries to signal and communicate to us. Then narcissistic, corrupt society mislabels it and instruct us to self-pathologize our symptoms. Brain is built to protect itself. That is natural function of brain, there is nothing pathological about it. Bran will see something dangerous, bad, unpleasant - and it will add it up to black list of worries. It will calculate how to pre-emptively evade potential danger. This part is totally normal. What is abnormal is when CBT explains our intrusive worries as pathology. As if we are abnormal. This explanation makes us mentally unstable and this is the reason why CBT ought to be banned. What is abnormal is that we are not explained what intrusive worries are. It is attempt by our brain to tell us where is danger and how to sooth and protect ourselves.
So - cutting contact with toxic people might be one. Seeing alternative ways how to handle difficult people apart from explosions or fawning - that is also one. -
"I’d love to hear more about rumination"
The official CBT method is that you accept it and shift focus onto another activity.
Try also this: to accept it (do not fight it or change it) - but give a thought to clarify where is the danger here. And how can you help yourself to feel secure and safe in a healthy, realistic way that is productive. For example, isolation and avoidance is not functional - however if you live in corrupt, war thorn country, or in a country where rape is legalized by corrupt police and state - it might be best to avoid going out. Then the obvious solution is to plan to relocate - which means thinking how to collect money. I would go in that direction to deal with rumination - seek ways how to help yourself to feel safe, that you minimize toxic people and toxic habits.
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"But the key is NOT to fight them, but instead, slightly drive them towards the direction you want your thoughts to go in" Yes! But that is CBT advice where CBT is misleading therapy that ought to be banned because they deny the existence of abuse and toxic people -and instead this therapy is pathologizing people who seek help.
So - intrusive thoughts tell us what is toxic. This is brain's way that tries to communicate to us how to protect ourselves. For example to cut contact with toxic people or relocate. IF we shift our focus: for example Think about Johnny Depp. If we convinced himself that he needs to shift his intrusive worries - he would stay stuck with Amber. And later when it breaks, she would sue him for being abuser - and he would not have proof or documented abuse to prove his innocence. He would file for bankruptcy now and he would be labelled by the whole world as Bill Cosby and his career would be over. And all this would happen because he would ignore his ignore intrusive thoughts - that were telling him that there is abusive person. And the first thing with abusive, covert narcissists is that we document the abuse. Instead, you wouldn't - you would shift your focus on something else.
Intrusive thoughts are what Freud and Jung have discovered. As you said in video - thoughts try to teach us something. They try to teach us how to recognize and handle toxic people in healthy, functional manner.
Being intrusive thoughts are toxic people who are true cause of them. Either in our past (due to complex trauma) or currently we are inside Karpman Drama Triangle.
Abusers, psychopaths, narcissists - they do not have intrusive thoughts. Instead they wear narcissistic mask that helps them destroy intrusive guilt and shame feelings and they seek other people to feel emotions - there are predatory types of people out there - and if we are nice, kind, friendly, open, sensitive and conscientious with working amygdala - we will attract toxic people like moth to a flame. And if we do not repel them in healthy manner, we will have intrusive thoughts.
”One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light but by making the darkness conscious.” JUNG
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" he'll realize he can actually get out of his situation" Unless he has serious issues with attachment and codependency and easily miss red flags. Then he will be trapped.
Also toxic people are excellent at manipulation - that is what makes them toxic. They sniff out your weakness and if they see you have issues with toxic shame and external reference locus of control they will know which button they can press it. You basically become their slaves and miss red flags. You stay trapped in Karpman Drama Triangle - and CBT instructs you to spin wheel of seeking another activities - without dealing with the actual problem. You will still feel uncomfortable and you will feel fears and panic - and CBT will explain that these feelings are imaginary and fantasy and delusional, that we create them (ABC model).
Mayoclinic definition of panic states that we are hallucinating panic: "A panic attack is a sudden episode of intense fear that triggers severe physical reactions when there is no real danger or apparent cause."
So, what happens when there is real danger and apparent cause? Do we shift focus on something else? Is that really functional and healthy?
"because the only thing that will matter to you is the fact that you feel good."
This does not work in real life. When you ignore someone who is nitpicking your mistakes all the time, you cannot overlook it, this is call denial and it leads to moral injury. You are basically traumatizing yourself.
When you need help or service and you meet toxic person who is hysterical and manipulative, you will feel social anxiety and fears in similar situations. Shifting focus on some other activity will not help you.
"Find better feeling thoughts and then you won't have to worry about narcissists and psychopaths " What happens when they accuse you of unfair things? And talk behind your back without you knowing about it? They will nitpick mistakes, flaws and ignorance in other person and this way you will try to solve the puzzle they throw. And CBT will explain that the discomfort you feel is your hallucination and delusion. Shifting focus on some other activity will not help you a difficult situation with difficult person. People need guidance in this area. And that is the job of psychology - to inspect why people have inhibitions to face their fears and help them to activate inner mechanism to resolve problems in life. Mere shifting focus on unrelated task - to me seems like ego immature defense mechanism called denial and repression.
Let me put it this way, no matter what you see as good advice to shift focus on another activity - people will try and see in their lives will it help them - I do not understand why CBT does not give any concrete advice how to handle toxic people?
Is it because of ideology that "toxic" people do not exist? Why is it so hard to give step by step instruction how to deal and manage difficult people? Hint: if CBT actually does this - that is able to offer concrete examples and teach concept how to deal with toxic people in healthy and functional manner - it would help a lot of people who are dealing with fears, panic and anxiety.
Pathologizing our feelings is horrible idea and it creates mental imbalance and toxic shame - which leads to external reference locus of control - seeking other people's approval and validation.
If I am convinced that my fears are stupid and abnormal and delusional and that I deal with anything uncomfortable in life by shifting focus on some activity - I will not solve any problems in life. I will end up without job. Just imagine if your boss is hysterical and you decide not to listen to him because you feel fears because he is rude - so you shift your attention to do some task, you will irritate him and he will fire you because you are not listening to him.
If we turn away our focus from intrusive thoughts, we will deny our brain that there is danger - and we will invalidate our self worth, we will create toxic shame - a belief that we are inept to handle and manage difficult situations and protect ourselves from future danger.
If we turn away our focus to another task, we will repress our emotions and feelings - which will lead to trauma.
“Unexpressed emotions will never die. They are buried alive and will come forth later in uglier ways.” FREUD
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(11.6.2022)
"When you put too much pressure on yourself that causes social anxiety" That explanation causes self-pathology. Self blame. We explain to ourselves that if we feel fear is illness - and without knowing we will destroy our self worth. And without self worth we are cripples. Toxic shame will flourish and we will end up being afraid of anything.
We need clear definition what is social anxiety and what is not social anxiety.
"I was complete opposite of an extrovert" Introvert is not pathology. Introvert is not social anxiety. There are many extroverts who feel social anxiety.
"I love being social, I love talking to people" Many introverts love being social and they love talking to people - they just do not do it every day neither their validation of feeling good depends on being around other people.
"I struggle with social anxiety, I was shy" Social anxiety is not shyness. These two concepts are radically different.
Ok, so the first thing we need to do is to set definitions in order to know what we are dealing here.
- Shyness if feeling inhibition in social situation - but the feeling wears off withing few minutes of you being in social situation. You do not worry about it before, and you do not worry about what happened later on. You only feel anxiety in the beginning and it does not influence your decisions in life, such as keeping you trapped at home due to agoraphobia. With exposure, most people realize that their social circle is safe and they do not have to feel uncomfortable among people. Shy people can break the ice and thus they realize that fear of getting hurt was false.
- Social anxiety is feeling of intimidation and apprehension in social situations. This is not pathology. You may feel social anxiety if you were raped or violently attacked. It is totally normal to feel anxiety after trauma. There is nothing to fix there. It would be sign of illness and schizophrenia if you are unable to feel fear after trauma - it means that you amygdala is not working, that parts of your brain are not functioning well, that something is damaged in the brain. So some people can break the ice and they may be in toxic environment, (people judging and criticizing, nagging and complaining or there is violence) and this causes them to feel anxiety even after the exposure. In this case, breaking the ice did not help - and social anxiety lingers. Our brain is created to keep us safe so brain will throw us worry scenario in order for us to figure out how to protect ourselves. Unfortunately most self help books and therapist will instruct you to self-pathologize yourself and that you label this natural brain function as illness and start paying a lot of money for treating something normal - and you may end up with paying bucks for medicine for something that is natural.
- Social anxiety disorder is psychological condition. This is actually connected with your videos when you talk about deception and narcissistic society. Social anxiety disorder by definition is very muddled from medical community. The true definition is that social anxiety disorder means you feel social anxiety in safe situations. For example if you go to full panic mode if you are with Oprah. You know she is nice and kind - but if you feel panic around her, that is social anxiety disorder. You are feeling social anxiety and since you are feeling anxiety around someone who is 100% nice, safe and kind - this is disorder - since there is no threat at all.
This part is obfuscated by official medical community. This is sign that medical community has not defined social anxiety - I guess due to narcissism and due to money profit. We live in sick world. So what happens with most people is that they do not know the difference between shyness, social anxiety and social anxiety disorder. They lump it all together. And they google their symptoms of panic when they are around hysterical people - and they misdiagnose themselves with social anxiety disorder. In the same time - it is clearly stated on wikipedia that this diagnosis ought to be made by clinician - not yourself: DSM states: "individuals with social anxiety disorder often overestimate the negative consequences of social situations, and thus the judgment of being out of proportion is made by the clinician." So the clinician ought to check are you afraid of all people - including the safe ones.
The problem is that most social anxiety resources - therapist, self help books, online advice - they do not clearly explain the difference between shyness, social anxiety nor social anxiety disorder. Instead this information is hidden and people are misguided. In this way, social anxiety is hoax.
So most people will feel shyness - they will google the panic symptoms and apprehension about social situations - and they will be mislead by information about social anxiety. They will pathologize themselves and create illness where there is none, and they will treat something that does not exist.
If you feel social anxiety in empty room and if you feel social anxiety if in room with Oprah or in kindergarten, afraid of someone who is obviously non violent - that is social anxiety disorder.
If you feel social anxiety because you were bullied and have trauma, if you were criticized while growing up 24/7 and if you were exposed to adult hysteria when growing up - and now you feel social anxiety in social situations as the after effect of abuse and invalidation - this is not social anxiety disorder. This is called Complex Trauma.
Complex trauma is when you have triggers and flashbacks and dysregulation before, during and after social situation and it is the after effect of being exposed to long term narcissistic abuse, constant criticism, lack of love, invalidation and being in contact with toxic person that tried to make you to fix their emotions by not expressing yourself.
1) "nobody cares" That is not true. There are toxic people out there who care. They nitpick and criticize in order for them to feel good about them. That is how narcissism works. They care to seek your mistakes and then belittle you. They target your mistakes, flaws and lack of knowledge and then attack it, mock it in order for you to feel bad about it. Social anxiety is natural consequence of being exposed to such toxic people.
2) "be ok with rejection" This does not work when someone targets your mistakes. IT is because we are normal, healthy people with empathy - so we try not to hurt someone. Narcissist and toxic people will present your mistakes as aggression. They do this as a way that you feel irrational guilt - and once you feel guilt, you are being controlled. You will try to please the offending party - because they tell you that you hurt them with your mistake. That is what toxic people, Machiavellians do. This is what parasites do. They trick you in feeling guilt. That is hypnosis. That is dark psychology. This is what marketing is doing and politicians. They offer themselves as saviours while in the same time they make you feel inferior. And they exploit our sense of trying to be good person who obeys the unwritten social etiquette. They torn off our arm of kindness and beat us up with it.
3) positive self talk Think about - what would happen if Johnny Depp spoke positive when he was abused by Amber? He would ignore the abuse and stay with her. When we are around toxic people, when we feel social anxiety when someone is rude - we need to face reality and that we are being abused. Ignoring it, denial and repression are immature ego defense mechanisms and they are not healthy neither functional - since they will enable the abuse to continue.
4) be okay with rejection. you wanted to say that we need to be strong when we do not get what we want. That we are not entitled. However when we talk about social anxiety - this is matter of being exposed to toxic people. Toxic people exploit others. So from this angle, it is not okay to be okay with abuse.
5) noFAP & gym. Social anxiety is warning, think of it as smoke detector. It wants our attention. Freud and Jung talked about unconsciousness inside us, it is autonomous entity inside us that is independent of our logic and needs so - fears and panic are signals that we are in danger and we need to think about it. If you ignore it - with or without fap, with or without gym - you are ignoring problem: that there are toxic people near you, and your task is to detect them , learn how to handle them in healthy and functional manner. So when people will feel social anxiety due to toxic people, they will google their symptoms and google will tell them that this is social anxiety disorder. This is misdiagnosis. Your problem are toxic people. The symptoms you feel is reaction to toxic people. That is not illness. IT is normal to feel uncomfortable around toxic people. IF you ignore it with thinking that problem is porn or physical activity that can be solved by not watching porn and going to gym - you are ignoring the true problem: toxic people.
4) self love "You don't care what anyone says" If you have complex trauma, if you are surrounded by toxic people - you will feel toxic shame. Toxic shame is byproduct of being exposed to toxic people. This happens because toxic people use gaslighting, honeymoon period to hook you in, they criticize and nitpick your natural mistakes so that they condition you and hypnotize you in toxic shame, self blame, self pathology and you end up caring what they think - you become dependent on their approval, good word, validation - and thus codependency is born. We seen how that ends with Johnny Depp and Amber. There is always toxic person on the other side whenever we feel bad and anxiety.
"Don't built self destruction" When we are deceived by abusers, media, marketing, toxic people - we will believe that we build self love by serving toxic people. That is what makes them toxic. They influence your thinking, they hypnotize you and your clarity about life is gone. Your purpose becomes making toxic people happy.
6) "practice" "Take baby steps" Without being aware that toxic people are true cause of social anxiety - you will not what steps you need to take. You will self pathologize yourself as CBT instructs. CBT is default main therapy official by medical community for social anxiety. CBT says nothing about toxic people and it misleads people thinking that social anxiety is lumped together with feeling anxiety with safe and unsafe people - but they do not explain this part to people who seek help and clarification. This information is hidden - so social anxiety is hoax and misleading due to groupthink and herd mentality in medical community.
CBT was based on faulty 1990s research where they studied and made experiments on people who were shy and who were feeling anxiety with safe and kind people. If you read about social anxiety - you will notice that social anxiety is closely connected with delusional disorder: "Paranoid delusional disorder follows social anxiety " Pubmed: ". From an evolutionary perspective, SAD may derive from biologically instinctive social hierarchy ranking, thus causing an assumption of inferior social rank, and thus prompting concerns about mistreatment from those of perceived higher rank."
So social anxiety is actually targeted at very small percentage of paranoid delusional people who are feeling anxiety in safety with safe people.
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"you know you’re not imagining " True. CBT as default main therapy for social anxiety explains that social anxiety is hallucination and delusion. This happens because social anxiety disorder and social anxiety are two completely different conditions - which are not clearly explained by medical official resources, including the self help books.
Social anxiety you feel after you are being bullied, or if you are around toxic people - is not illness. This is not pathology. This is trauma. And you are not problem at all. Problem as narcissists, bullies, psychopaths, Machiavellians, parasites, emotional vampires. The anxiety we feel is our brain's attempt to communicate to us that we need to learn how to retort to these toxic people. That we educate how to recognize them, cut contact is possible and that we find out the functional and healthy manner how to handle and deal with difficult people.
The problem is that CBT does not explain that people will google their trauma emotions and that google will direct them to social anxiety sites. Social anxiety disorder is feeling anxiety when you are around safe, kind and nice people. That is disorder - because you feel panic around people who will not hurt you. So CBT does not make clear clarification about the definition of social anxiety. instead they lump all people who feel anxiety together and then they make normal people ill by convincing them that they are imagining the threat. Then they sell medication too. So from this angle, social anxiety is major hoax that is not yet being discovered. Once this is on surface, there might be mass law suits from people who were misdiagnosed and they were never explained what social anxiety truly is.
If you feel anxiety around people who are criticizing you, nitpicking your mistakes, if they nag all the time: 1) these people are toxic 2) it is normal to feel anxiety around toxic people - that makes them toxic, you feel toxicity 3) this is complex trauma - because when growing up we were exposed to toxic people, constant relentless criticism 24/7 and our brain was arrested in development - we never learned that we need to protect ourselves against toxic people. Instead we were explained to invalidate our fears and this creates trauma- now as adults we feel social anxiety when someone is behaving in similar way to trauma we experienced before. That is not illness. That is trauma. Trauma means being injured by mentally ill person. It is the same as being shaken violently as kid - children do not have their bones grown, they are fragile - so any shaking will injure them. Injury can be mental - if we were yelled at and told to shut up and never express ourselves, if we were taught that we need to sooth other people's anger in order not to be punished by them - this is trauma and it will set us up to feel social anxiety as adults. Medical community does not explain this at all. CBT lumps paranoid and true panic together.
Even mayoclinic states that any panic is hallucination: "A panic attack is a sudden episode of intense fear that triggers severe physical reactions when there is no real danger or apparent cause." There is no explanation what is called when there is real danger and apparent cause.
So medical community is making us sick and they make mental illness out of normal people who were abused. We are talking here about major fraud in sick, narcissistic world full of deceit and money grabbing corporations.
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"embracing the fact that no one actually cares" There are predatory types of people out there who care a lot about your actions, thoughts and opinions. They target people who are codependent and who were abused and invalidated in childhood. Now they show they care and win love of their target and then keep them stuck in abuse.
If we ignore the fact that there are sick, narcissistic people out there who are caring about you in toxic way, we will fall prey to these people - because they are highly manipulative and they use dark psychology to hypnotize you into fears and guilt.
For example- easiest example is someone macho. You tell a guy that the shirt he is wearing is sissy and that homosexuals are wearing it - you will control this person who thinks is alpha macho male. You will target his belief that he is alpha and that something about them might make other people think that he is weak. This way you will control his behaviour: he will never wear that shirt. This is example of dark psychology and many people are using it in other examples. That way we fall prey to toxic people. Toxic people are clever to cover this operation. Their goal is to make you feel ashamed and guilty. Their resource in life is playing such mind games with other people. So they will perfect this - without you being aware what they are doing. Marketing and politicians are using this daily.
Our ability to sniff these people come as social anxiety. So social anxiety is a good thing. It is not something to pathologize or reject.
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" I was not particularly shy as a kid but lacked self confidence." This is not social anxiety. If you label this as social anxiety, it will lead you astray and you will never find the answer. Medical community and google mislead us in wrong direction. We feel shy and we might lack confidence - and google will tell us that this is social anxiety.
Social anxiety is when you were bullied and traumatized and now you feel fears around people. So this is actually Complex trauma - being exposed to toxic people who took away your confidence through manipulation and gaslighting and shy is natural after effect of being toxically ashamed by them.
The problem is that medically speaking, social anxiety disorder is medical condition for people who feel anxiety around safe, kind and nice people. So they hallucinate the abuse. For example, they would feel panic if they were with the most kindness, nicest, safest person in the universe for example Oprah or Gandhi or Mandela. Only 1 percent of people have this paranoid delusional issue. That is social anxiety disorder. So CBT (which is therapy for delusion) is main default therapy for social anxiety disorder. That is what medical community does not explain. That if we feel shy and lack of confidence - that this is not pathology.
If you were bullied - and now feel fears as effect of abuse - this is called Complex Trauma, and methods would help you around it.
If you feel shy and lack confidence - chances are that you do not know how to handle, recognize and manage toxic people - toxic people who make other people feel shy through unfair criticism and manically sparked behaviour such as erratic outburst of irrational anger. I would go in this direction: that you learn and educate yourself about toxic people and how to handle their abuse, how to recognize narcissistic abuse and deal with it in healthy and functional manner. And see if you will feel less shy and more confident as the result of knowledge?
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"social anxiety is just intensified shyness. They are not different things." Shyness = feel scared when in social situation. It wears off quickly and you never think about it again. Social anxiety = feel scared when in social situation. It does not wear off at all and you think about it before, during and after event. Social anxiety disorder = feel scared when in safe situation. You believe someone who is safe, nice, and kind will hurt you even though this person is Oprah, Mandela or Gandhi (someone who is known in Universe to be the safest person ever in history of mankind) - but you still feel anxiety. 1% of people have this and this is part of Paranoid delusional disorder.
Google and medical healthy professionals lump these 3 together and a lot of people get misdiagnosed and lead astray.
Social anxiety is Complex Trauma. it is being exposed to narcissistic abuse and bully event, This is not pathology. This is trauma. There is nothing wrong with person who feels anxiety after being in contact with criminally insane people.
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We need to care what other people think at some level. IF we do not care about others, we will never form relationships, we will never make friends, love interest. Instead we will become narcissists and we will never outgrow egocentrism-
If we were bullied - we need information about trauma and how to handle and manage toxic dangerous people in healthy and functional manner. If we decide to isolate ourselves and make ourselves into a cocoon - it will make us sick. Second law of thermodynamics says that elements that get isolated will get distorted. We will start to live in a fantasy world and we will become mentally sick.
What we need is to learn how to detect toxic people and how to manage difficult situations in life without drama, without explosions, without wars. This information is hard to find - because we do live in narcissistic world, where most people do live in their cocoon they decided to handle and manage life by not caring about other people. that is the root of evil in this world. So we need to care at some level.
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"In order to overcome social anxiety, I’ve found it helpful to focus more on the other person or people and not focus on myself" Social anxiety is being focused on other people. Social anxiety makes you zoom onto other people, seeking for potential threat, so you scan the environment and you look for facial expression, tone of voice and being focused onto other people's unimportant details about them on them all around them, anything about them. That is social anxiety.
" others might notice and judge me for." yeah - that is is - fear of criticism so you look for any comment, facial expression, how they speak and if they will say something painful to you. So you are already focused on other people, you just didn't realize it, since it is automatic.
Social anxiety is complex trauma. It is sign we were bullied by toxic people. And if we interpret social anxiety as self-pathology and our fault, that we self blame ourselves and label it as sickness - we will miss the message that anxiety is telling us: to recognize and learn how to handle toxic people.
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" I find socializing hard like I don't fit in" So don't force it. All people find socializing hard and all people feel they do not fit in. They only found ways how to transmute these natural and healthy beliefs into rational ones. For example many people discovered that they feel safe with other people. So they protect themselves with other people. This makes a lot of codependents stuck with abusive people who are violent, such as Johnny Depp with Amber. You might discover that you might enjoy socializing with other people who find socializing hard and who feel that they do not fit in. Paradoxically, you will end up socializing and fitting in with them.
That is the secret of socializing that no one is talking about since most people have really low IQ and do not think about their life. Then you think something is wrong with you - and toxic shame make us depend on other people's approval and we feel trapped for not fitting in, it is viscious cycle, being stuck in matrix prison without escape.
Start by educating yourself about life. Read philosophy. You will discover that many extremely intelligent people share your beliefs about socialization and not fitting in.
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Trauma can make us also trigger. Into isolation or fight response or holding on to grudge. Someone being rude can trigger social anxiety. If we self-pathologize our anxiety, it is the same as honor culture - and this will fuel anxiety and unhealthy mechanism how to deal with trigger. The healthier solution is to realize we are not sick for feeling unhappy when around toxic people who trigger us. What we need is to focus on them, and to learn how to retort to toxic people in healthy and functional manner. If we pathologize and put shame and guilt on us for feeling uncomfortable, we will never find the answer how to deal with toxic people who are the true, yet hidden cause of disorder. We will think our thoughts are the cause of disorder and this will make us stuck in cycle toxic shame and anxiety.
"we become fragile" I see it like Darwin evolution - we become more aware of manipulation and toxic people. Like plant that develops thorns as reaction to disorder.
"Make people Strong" It is important to clarify what strong means. Many people think being strong means being rude, aggressive, hysterical. Being strong actually means being authentic, being honest, speaking the truth - which is actually very radical since most people will suffer from cognitive dissonance when faced with contradictory information since they live in fantasy world.
"It is not about me, it is about this person. It is about anger frustration in this person's life, not about me. I can act as if this insult, rejection – I can roll of it." Yep! But there are manipulative people who make this process hard. They pick our mistakes, flaws, ignorance and our sense of being good and kind to other people without causing anyone pain or harm - so they will accent our mistakes as we are abusers and aggressive. For example - that we are arrogant if we voice out the elephant in the room (someone who is showing inappropriate anger outbursts). IF we shut up - we will enable their abuse. If we speak up they will accuse us being abuser and aggressive. So the trick is that we know what is going on. If someone is intrusive - we document it and speak it out. IF we ignore this, we might end up with someone like Amber, who will label us as abuser - and if we are not aware of toxic people we might end up being manipulated by such people. We end up being accused of something that is not true, we might lose money in court and career if they win the court by lies. So toxic people who lie can be dangerous, they can cause damage and ruin our lives. WE need to be aware to recognize toxic people and we need to learn how to deal with toxic people in healthy, functional proper manner, without explosions, without drama, without wars.
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"talking to strangers helps to become more open in conversation." People already know this. Everyone learns this in kindergarten and grammar school. If we convince ourselves that lack of communication skills is problem we will self pathologize ourselves.
" lot of people overthink what they're gonna say around anyone, " Only people who were abuses overthink. Only people who were or are exposed to toxic people overthink. Overthink is a sign of intrusive thoughts that are result of being exposed to someone who is unreasonable, hysterical.
Think about it more. The only problem with any mental disorder, unless we are paranoid and delusional, are toxic people. They trigger us into panic and that we crap fit into their definitions and demands - and in the same time we blame ourselves for not being perfect for their imposed standards.
If we feel apprehension and inhibition with people - it is clear sign we were traumatized at some point. Human brain is built to protect itself against pain. It will not allow our logic to experience the pain again. So we will be prone to self blame ourselves for something that is not our fault at all.
It is easier to think that we need to fix ourselves - rather than recognizing the fact that we live in narcissistic, cruel, deceptive world, full of hostile and angry and manipulative toxic people. So we will try to fix ourselves as a way to blame ourselves for the pain that toxic people cause to us.
So I would refrain from self-pathology, it is not healthy and you will end up with hypervigilance, people pleasing issues, fawning and being pushover. You will seek approval and validation from other people and you will be convinced that you are not perfect enough to be accepted as you are. It is viscious cycle of safe hate and invalidation - the same one that traumatized us in the first place by toxic people who invalidate us and make us believe that we need to be perfect in order to fit in to society.
Toxic people are the only problem. If we are kind, nice, have empathy, if we have empathy, if we have no ill will and hidden agenda to cause pain and hurt and to exploit others - we are not problem, there is nothing to fix. No one is perfect. Everyone is bizarre in some way. Everyone has their perks, quirks and caprices. If we are not evil - there is nothing to fix and self pathology approach will make us mentally ill.
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You did not do anything wrong. We are discussing here ideas, not you as person. We want to find what is wrong and what can we do better.
" I like… want to give advice to help others, because I know how much it sucks to deal with anxiety" Yeah, that what anxiety and toxic shame combined do to us - we become codependent. This is called codependency. It is issue when we want to appease other people. We cannot handle them being distressed and we want to help them. Automatically without checking if they need help. Again, this is nothing wrong about you- this is all trauma response. We never learned how to deal with toxic difficult people. Instead we were taught to self doubt ourselves and to appease the authority - someone who is loud and stronger than we are. We were abused. We are talking here about abuse. We were exposed to abuse, toxic people.
So the only problem here are toxic people and we need to learn how to detect them and how to protect ourselves. How to retort, how to respond in healthy, functional way, where we take all things into consideration, without self blame, without wars, without explosions, without drama.
Again, there is nothing wrong with you. With social anxiety we were injured by toxic people. We have injury imposed by toxic people.
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" but the first step is to move towards self improvement" Let me put it this way: Do you think that Johnny Depp would leave Amber if he convinced himself that issue was self improvement? He would be broke now, he would lose court, the world would label him as abuser and his career would be over. All because he would quit masturbation, go to gym and try not to feel "weak".
The only problem with out mental health, unless we suffer from paranoid delusions, are toxic people. We already have mechanism inside us that works fine. There is nothing to meddle or self pathologize about. Self pathologizing yourself will set yourself for toxic shame and perfectionism and that is mental illness. You will become neurotic. It is because you will never be satisfied. You will never reach the point where you can say I am at peace now. As soon as you make more money, you will spend it to buy more and more things. It is cycle of neuroticism. In the same time, you will totally ignore toxic people around you - since you will convince yourself that you are problem and that you are unworthy and you cannot accept yourself This is what marketing and politicians are doing - they present you with a puzzle or a problem - and you seek protection, to make better this imaginary fantasy problem.
The reality is that once you accept yourself - you will improve and you will change. Without resistance. Without drama. Without discipline, without self blame.
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We already talk positive to ourselves all the time, but we are not aware of it. Inner critic is form of positive self talk - it wants us to motivate us to do something. Addictions are form of positive self talk - body wants to feel positive and chirpy. Defense mechanisms are all positive self talk - we avoid people when we live in toxic environment, to protect ourselves.
So what positive talk really means is self acceptance. That we accept ourselves as we are. In order to gain self worth. Now this is where we will find blockage and issues.
Surely - we think - we cannot accept ourselves if we feel scary. We cannot love ourselves if we feel panic, while all instagram stars appear so confident and chirpy. So surely we are deviant and abnormal and we must reject our discomforting and scary emotions. We must reject ourselves and pretend to be something else, to put on a narcissistic mask of superiority and resentment.
Surely - we think - we are not acceptable if we do not have money or material things. So we reject ourselves as inferior. That is not positive talk anymore.
Instead of positive self talk I would focus more on radical self acceptance and self love. Self validation and self protection. That we listen to our anxiety and learn how to educate ourselves how to handle toxic people in our lives. Soon we will discover that we will cut toxic habits and toxic people out of our lives. When we accept and love ourselves truly, without conditions.
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People have toxic shame. Toxic shame comes with abuse and trauma. Toxic shame blocks us to see reality clearly. So we cannot trust ourselves, since toxic shame does not allow us to see ourselves. Instead we only see others. Toxic shame tells us that we are unworthy and unacceptable. So naturally we turn to trauma bonding with others and we see other people - who appear without social anxiety - as superior, as gods. So toxic shame will make us seek validation and approval from others.
Then someone says trust yourself - but toxic shame does not allow us to know this concept. What does it mean? How can I trust myself if I feel fears? How can I trust myself if I have phobia? How can I trust myself if I am convinced that I am stupid, unworthy, ugly? What to trust if there is no persona inside me, only people pleaser who is seeking to make other people happy in order to avoid their temper tantrums and punishments.
We need to realize that if we have issue with trusting ourselves, that there is toxic shame inside us. Toxic shame is like cancer of soul. it is virus, a parasite that is destroying us from the inside out. Toxic shame is product of being exposed to abuse and trauma. So - natural solution is to educate ourselves : to learn about complex trauma, read books about toxic shame, learn how to recognize toxic people, narcissist and how to manage narcissistic abuse without developing toxic shame. With education about toxic people and toxic shame and how to manage it effectively, without drama and explosions or self blame, we can learn that we can trust ourselves.
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Great that you feel extroverted now. But this is not social anxiety nor sickness. You simply forced yourself to be around people, your choice your life.. you know the best what you want from life. Social anxiety is relentless trauma from abuse - it does not wear off with being extroverted, semen retention, working out, self improvement (whatever that means)m, proper body language - anxiety still stuck with you like a leech and you cannot shake it off. That is social anxiety. nothing works - because the problem is not you, problem is injected in you, you are wounded by abuse. Problem is toxic environment. Problem are toxic people - who are true and only cause of social anxiety.
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1) toxic and manipulative people care and they seek your mistakes to exploit you 2) toxic shame and trauma make you stuck with rejection and external validation 3) toxic positivity will not help you realize that you are around toxic person, it will make it worse 4) lack of self-sex and work out have absolutely no effect on amount of abuse you get from toxic people 5) you cannot take any steps if you do not realize that social anxiety is trauma stuck in your body 6) you cannot love yourself if you demand yourself to be perfectionist and put conditions on yourself (no fap etc) and if you stay in toxic relationships and never learn how to retort to difficult people who are true cause of social anxiety
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However if they follow CBT (which is main and default therapy for social anxiety by official medical community) you will lose 20 years of your life being people pleaser, pushover and fawning - since you will convince yourself that fears you feel around toxic people are hallucination (CBT calls this ABC model - where they state that your own thoughts are creating abuse and hallucinations of abuse)
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"lack of confidence and anxiety " This is not lack of confidence nor it is anxiety. You are experiencing totally normal emotions for 16yo. With time you will gain more experience even in protected "shelter" part of suburbia.
If you label normal emotions as sickness, this is called self-pathologizing, and it can create mental illness. You try to fix something that is not broken and you convince yourself that you have issues - it becomes self-prophecy.
For example, Extreme SA would not allow you to write this comment. Extreme SA would not allow you to have any friend - even your friend from the city. That is extreme SA.
You have one friend - this means you have no social anxiety at all. You just googled your normal teen feelings and google misdiagnosed you with social anxiety. This can be very dangerous.
Check out Nirvana "Smells like teen spirit" - and you will see that teens who are your parents now felt the same way when they were teens.
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Try to educate yourself more about toxic people. When you want approval and validation from other people - which means you care about being rejected - this is called codependency, it is trauma bonding. This is issue that occurs with people who grew up in environment of constant and relentless criticism 24/7. This is complex trauma. So what we need to do here is heal our trauma in order to be "comfortable with rejection". Trauma being the true problem. Toxic people being the true problem here. Not rejection.
Also, your reality tells us that there is a hidden clause that you kept away from us. that is - that being fine with rejections means that you need to have money. Just imagine what happens when you stand up for yourself and you get fired. How will you pay your bills? With rejection?
So trauma and money are crucial components of "not caring about rejection" - and you never mention them. This can lead people astray and they can ruin their lives for listening to half baked advice. It is a form of manipulation so I would be careful when speaking in general broad terms. If you are unable to consider all angles, you might have issues with egocentrism and that can lead you to trouble in life - so I would invest in education before you take off in the harsh world.
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"Nothing wrong with being shy and it’s not synonymous with having social anxiety" Yep! And no one puts like click except me on your comment. People convince themselves to have a disease and thus they make themselves to be neurotic. It is in our nature to seek enemy and to be antagonistic. It seems rational that we self-blame ourselves rather than seeking and seeing that problem might be our lack of knowledge. Or toxic people.
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There is a reason why he deleted it: 'Be okay with rejection' Consider what would happen if you deny yourself to learn from failure? What if you have horrible personality and people reject you because you are evil, if you have horrible hygiene, if you are inconsiderate and rude? If you never seek what is wrong with you - you will become horrible mentally ill person who is aggressive. You might end up in jail if you decide that you are ok with your decision to steal. People are far less good as they like to think about themselves. We all have some imperfections. If we do not get peer review, feedback - we will live in fantasy world. So criticism is valuable stream of data which we can analyze to see if we are guilty or someone is manipulating us to feel guilty. Without this process we will be stuck with anxiety and illness.
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" at work because I don't know what to say to ppl and I'm afraid of rejection" Yes. That is lack of knowledge how to handle toxic people and how to retort. CBT does not explain this to socially anxious people. Instead CBT tells that we are hallucinating abuse. The task of psychology is to teach us how to build self worth and how to retort to toxic abusive manipulative people in healthy, functional manner without explosions, without wars. Instead of this, CBT tells that we are creating the abuse with our thoughts (ABC Model) - which is lie and this is the reason why CBT ought to be banned, CBT is main default therapy for social anxiety.
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"Why not affirm ourselves " Because this signals your brain that you believe you are not strong enough. You signal your brain that you are faulty and wrong so you must over compensate with affirmations.
Over-compensation is superiority complex. Over-compensation is narcissistic tool of creating false mask and it leads to mental illness. It signals your brain that you have to pretend to be something you are not. It signals your brain that you are not worthy enough to be yourself so you must mask it with confirmation and re-assurance.
When we confirm, re-assure, when we create any kind of action and reassurance about anxiety - we will create PureOCD intrusive worry loops. This will end with OCD obsessive acts every time you feel unsure about yourself. you will end up with neuroticism, hypervigilance, never truly trusting yourself that you can handle and manage unknown and strange and difficult situations and people in life. That's why.
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"Go outside" If you expose yourself, without knowledge how to handle difficult people in healthy and functional manner and without ability to trust your anxiety in recognizing toxic people - you will develop people pleasing issues, fawning and end up being pushover.
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" I wouldnt date a person with that" Toxic people mask themselves and you end up dating them. That part makes them toxic - they are manipulative. They scan you, they sniff your weaknesses. They are predatory.
Also, you cannot choose jobs or colleagues. There will always be difficult people out there. When you need help or service - you will depend on toxic people to help you.
In this real life situations imagining positive things will not help you. In fact, it will make things worse - since you will not focus yourself on education how to handle and manage toxic people.
We live in toxic, sick, narcissistic, manipulative world. If you deny this, they will take advantage of your denial and repression.
It is the same as if you have bunch of money and you scream around on the street the pin for your credit card and hope no one will exploit you.
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" people are trying to avoid me" Because people are naturally prone to be biases and to destroy anything that is not "normal". That is pathology inside people that sociology tries to correct, this is why schools are teaching about acceptance of all people. While evil people like Jordan Peterson describe this as political correctness.
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"And thx for the heads up" Just remember that you are totally normal and sane and healthy and perfect. There is nothing abnormal about you inside and outside - what you can control you will improve. What you cannot control you can only accept. Toxic people scan for mistakes in people and they are the only thing that we need to be aware of - that we recognize hatred in other people as mental illness - is is important that you do not internalize their toxic shame. Many people were raised in alcoholic homes where their parents abused them and now they repeat the abuse of innocent victims - anyone who is different than the "norm"- and CBT instead of explaining it to you like I explained it to you - will pathologize you - and they will tell you that you are hallucinating the abuse. We live in sick world full of deception and narcissistic people in managerial seats. We need to learn about it and learn how to retort to it , without accepting to feel irrational guilt and toxic shame.
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@certified fish "I feel like people are using me" Yep, they do. Your feeling is correct. Toxic manipulative, sick people out there scan for different people and they try to use you to trigger toxic shame inside you. This way they control you and you are hypnotized by their abuse, you try to fawn to them and seek their approval and validation. They use manipulation in mind games and they use dark psychology to perform this abuse. It is important that you educate yourself about toxic people, about dark psychology so that you can recognize gaslighting, abuse, mocking, their sarcasm and blaming and criticizing as tool to exploit you.
When you google your symptoms of being target - google will lead you to social anxiety. And official social anxiety resources will explain to you that you are hallucinating the abuse, that people are not toxic. That you can fix abuse by your thoughts (which is insanity). They explain that you create the abuse by your thoughts (ABC Model) - and this is criminal therapy, it ought to be banned. It was based on toxic people in managerial seat. We live in sick, narcissistic world full of deception. Manipulators, Machiavellian (google this term) will always be when you need some help and service and guidance. They will present themselves as saviours - altruistic Narcissists are the worse of them all. Their goal is that you feel miserable and that you are sheep, that you shut up and never express yourself - so that they can have more control which is the source of their illness, desire to control.
So the purpose of healing your social anxiety is to learn about external factor - where you no longer feel deficient, wrong, guilty or ashamed for being yourself.
IF you are kind, nice, good person without evil agenda to exploit others nor to cause pain - you can accept yourself fully without conditions.
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@Praveen Sriram ""sustained effort." Only via education. It is same as process when body learns about virus. If body cannot detect HIV virus, HIV virus will attack you without inner resistance. Education is the key. One common thing, one common pattern here is toxic people. Toxic people are the true cause of disorder and like virus - we need to learn how to detect them in order to gain immunity. That way we will protect ourselves. Social anxiety is call from our unconscious body that we start to learn about toxic people.
CBT (official therapy for social anxiety) tells us that toxic people do not exist and that we are hallucinating panic and toxic people and abuse - that these are our illusions. Official definition of panic from mayoclinic is: "A panic attack is a sudden episode of intense fear that triggers severe physical reactions when there is no real danger or apparent cause." So we are told by medical community that we have no need to put any effort into recognizing nor learning how to protect ourselves from toxic people.
Totally wrong advice from people who suppose to help you and guide you how to build effort.
So we are actually talking here about waking up. That we open our eyes and see that we are being mislead. That we are not told what is true problem. And without information what is true problem (toxic people) -- our any effort will be futile and dysfunctional and without results.
It is like pruning yourself without knowing how to prune so you over-prune yourself and you bear no fruit.
It is like getting job to be fireman but system does not offer you education how to extinguish fire. So any effort you do will be futile if you pour water on electric machines - you will hurt yourself. You can invest time and knowledge and effort to read Shakespeare - but this effort will not help you about extinguishing fire.
So effort is useless and futile if your eyes are closed and you cannot see true problem. If you are unable to define the true problem - any effort will be useless.
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@Ybevc Melly " If you are soaking in shame sadness unhappy with self you need to do what’s needed to feel better about yourself " This is trauma. It is complex. It is called Complex Trauma.
It is not only shame. It is toxic shame. It is not sadness, it is conditional programming, similar to Pavlovian dogs or circus animals - during growing up we were suppose to learn to express ourselves. In toxic environment we are not allowed to express ourselves. Instead we were punished if we did not fawn to authority. This creates "sadness".
" So simply get up work on your physical appearance" That is mask. You try to over-compensate. Over-compensation is not healthy because you are not dealing with the core problem that caused trauma and anxiety. You are instead suppressing it and try to deny it from existing.
Until you make unconscious to be conscious it will direct your life and you will call it fate, said Jung.
"Simply do it." And without knowledge how to deal with trauma and toxic people, you will drive through life like with your hand break turned on. You will not drive clearly, you will be blocked along the way, you will not be able to go. You will get stuck. When you simply do it with anxiety inside you, you will develop safety mechanisms and you will develop toxic habits. You will become people pleaser and fawn and be pushover - since you will not know how to deal with manipulators and toxic people. With trauma we never learned intrinsic locus of control. With toxic shame we never learned what is self worth.
Without self worth we are cripples. Any action will be fused with wrong moves and we will feel frustrated and we will spend energy on wrong people and wrong moves - because we do not see people clearly. With trauma we have filter over our eyes - and we are excellent target for toxic people. Toxic people sniff out desperate people who are seeking validation and approval and who just want to do it, without knowing why and for whom.
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" it's pretty obvious if someone is a positive or negative to your life," It is not, they are manipulative and they wear mask. That is what makes them toxic. Many of them are altruistic Narcissist, borderliners - which means they use empathy but in focused direct manner - so you think they are your friend and you open up to them.
Social anxiety is by product of abuse. Abuse is not someone's invention neither people cause to be abused.
"get rid of negative people" What if you cannot? What then? Due to job, security, finances, shelter, children, obligations, contracts?
If you have no ability to see that there are toxic people - you will be their victim. This un-awareness makes you easy target to exploit.
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Great post. That is social anxiety. Look at the patter; 1) we get hurt 2) we realize toxic people are out there but 3) we rationalize it and we try to be good 4) we end up being afraid - either to be good or to make mistakes
We end up not knowing how to behave, how to act. For me personally I tried to seek solution to this - and CBT (default main therapy for social anxiety) tells us that what we feel is hallucination. This information is false.
Social anxiety is trauma. We were traumatized by toxic people in our past and now as adults we have lost our compass, our GPS. We cannot rely on ourselves and we seek other people to explain how life works.
While for any working mind and healthy mind - we need to rely on our thoughts and opinions to handle and manage life: to know what our goals are and how we retort to abusive people and how to handle difficult and complex situations.
With trauma we cannot do this - because we deeply down believe we are inept to handle life - due to trauma and experience with toxic people.
So we get stuck in limbo - we can't trust people, and in the same time we throw ourselves to any people since society will tell us that we must be social and confident and chase our goals and make money. In the same time we avoid and isolate ourselves while we accept any kind of people - especially if they show us any kind of validation that we desperately seek. This makes us codependent as easily hurt by criticism - and this way other people can control us very easily.
I see solution to trust ourselves, even if we are wrong. That we accept ourselves with mistakes. Once we accept ourselves, even though we might think we are inept, weak and unacceptable - we will stop chasing approval from people - and naturally toxic people will afloat on surface. We will have courage to say no and to remove ourselves from toxic people.
We will realize that we have mixed up definitions how to trust people, whom to trust and whom to reject. This part is scrambled inside us due to trauma and this chaos is causing social anxiety - because we are unable to filter out good and evil people. This also make us unable to form deep and meaningful friendships, since we shut up and never express ourselves - and if we do, toxic people whom we attract make fun of us or attack us, criticize us.
This is why the focus must be on us first. That we accept ourselves without conditions.
Random conversation will be ok method - but only if we accept ourselves first. Ironically - we will not matter anymore about seeing acceptance of other people as important - neither if we appear perfect to other people - and we will be able to form better and healthier relationships with new people, who are not toxic.
Look at people who do not have social anxiety. They do not have any special method. They form relationships and talk with people without anxiety. They have no special secret - they simply were never abused when growing up so they learned how to accept themselves, with all flaws and mistakes.
Also, look what happens to such people when they end up in toxic relationships - they break apart and they do not know how to handle it because they never meet someone manipulative. They have no experience how to manage it.
Luckily there are amazing you tube channels about narcissism that we can educate ourselves how to deal and recognize toxic people. We are missing this information. Society instructs us that we are the problem - that we need to fix something inside us - and this keeps us stuck with toxic shame.
When we are healthy inside, when we love ourselves, when we are honest - we will naturally repel toxic people. Toxic people hate transparency and honesty. They like secrets, shame and guilt - which we carry inside us due to toxic shame internalized inside us.
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I see social anxiety as trauma. It is toxic shame internalized inside us. This means, that 1) we will tend to self blame and nitpick ourselves to become perfect and "normal". Problem is that 2) we have toxic shame - which means we do not believe in ourselves, deep down we believe we are inept and failures. Trauma and toxic shame therefore demand from us to accept ourselves, with mistakes and flaws, unconditionally. Trauma and toxic shame means we do not like nor love ourselves - so it is essential to accept ourselves first. Then work on affirmations as much as you like - after you are totally accepted yourself.
Without self worth, without intrinsic locus of control we are cripples and any attempt to "fix" ourselves will add up to toxic shame and thus keep us in cycle of self-pathology and in constant need to prove ourselves and seek external validation and approval. We will try to google our symptoms - and google will explain to us this is social anxiety - where CBT is default therapy for social anxiety. CBT is intended for delusional disorder - for people who feel fear in safe environment and who are thinking that even safe people might hurt and harm you. This is very misleading - and CBT is full of nitpicking and instructions about ourselves, where they instruct you to fix your symptoms - including affirmations. This is extremely detrimental for anyone who has complex trauma, victims of abuse and toxic people - since this attempt to fix your thoughts, opinions is the attack on your deep core - and this faulty therapy and approach kills your self worth inside. IT does not work - since toxic shame is core problem : deep ingrained belief that you are inept, unacceptable and wrong by default.
So obvious solution to toxic shame and healing social anxiety is that we accept ourselves even when we are wrong and when we feel bad and when we feel discomfort.
Life will not be full of roses. We will meet toxic people and we will experience unfair situations. affirmations in such situations will not help us. What we need is to believe in ourselves, because without self worth we cannot function in this world.
With complex trauma we were traumatized in the times when our self worth was building up - and now we are stuck with toxic shame and uncomfortable feelings among people which we label as social anxiety.
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Yeah, it comes down to see anxiety as voice inside from within - that we pay attention to people who are dangerous.
There is intelligent and healthy way to handle difficult people and difficult situations that scare us with social anxiety inside us. This information is hard to extract and we need to invest a lot of time, energy and money to find it. So most people take easy way out - the route of self blame and trying to fix ourselves - instead of fixing how we respond to the threat - real or imagined one. This way we over-prune ourselves and we never learn to trust our feelings and emotions even the scary one. We stay stuck in toxic shame, deep belief that we are unable to handle life - and we become codependent - which means plethora of new social anxiety, where we try to please other people and seek their guidance and approval.
If we ignore this voice inside, our inner GPS, and if try to get rid of anxiety, we will feel more anxiety.
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"If you don’t ever talk what will you be good at?"
That is social anxiety. We think we are not good enough. We are convinced that we are not acceptable and we must chase unknown vague perfection. That is toxic shame inside us.
Think deeply - where the definition "good enough" comes from exactly? Is this self imposed rule? Does it come from strict parents? Are the neighbour kids we are in contact with putting the imposed label of what means "good enough"? Did we learn to be good enough though media, instagram? When we will achieve to be good enough? What is our definition of good enough?
If we analyze this question more deeply, we will discover that we have no idea what is good enough - this is only irrational guilt imposed by narcissistic sick society that propels us to chase carrot on a stick in front of our nose. This way marketing and politicians are manipulating us - that we chase some dream fantasy of being good enough and accepted and validated by society - which does not care about our success anyway. Society will care when we fail or make mistake. That will bring their attention - not when we are making it good in life.
Self worth is the basis for anything in life. If we do not accept ourselves fully, with mistakes and not being good enough - we will create neuroticism - we will constantly worry and never be truly satisfied, we will live in state of hypervigilance.
That is social anxiety- we were traumatized to believe we are not good enough. We were invalidated - and we grew up thinking that we must chase other people's approval and constantly fix ourselves in order to get recognition to be good enough by society. That will never happen. We cannot please all people.
Seeking to be good enough is a form of people pleasing. It is virus order, it is toxic code that is running virus program in our mind - and we will end up being addicts, unhappy, depressed and anxious - since we have order inside us to chase unrealistic goal, a fantasy created by untreated mentally ill people around us.
Paradox is - when we accept ourselves as we are, that we are good enough as we are - we will remove any blockage that stops us from talking. And we will gain experience to perfect our need to be good enough to talk.
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That's all true, however we need to take into consideration social anxiety here. Social anxiety is trauma. We are dealing here with exposure to some traumatic event and toxic people who traumatized us, it is complex trauma.
When complex trauma happens in childhood we get stuck at developmental stage, it is arrested development. So we re-live our trauma until we resolve it.
Social anxiety is our brain's attempt to find solution to the threat: how to manage and deal with toxic people.
We might work on our communication skills, we can work on upgrading our views on life and true, to admit that there is no magic pill - but all these are sidelines, unimportant things that does not contribute much to the injury we experienced.
We tackle trauma when we listen to our anxiety. Not when we try to cover it up by denial or obfuscation or repression. Toxic people are the cause of social anxiety - so learning how to retort to toxic people will help us, to recognize it, and to learn how to manage and handle difficult people in constructive, healthy, proper manner, without drama, without explosions, without wars.
This is not easy information to find out. Some will say that we must stop being people pleaser and to show teeth and to become monster. This is not healthy nor functional.
There is always proper way to handle toxic people - to look inside us after we accepted ourselves as we are, with mistakes and flaws. When we have nothing to be ashamed about neither to hide nor anything to cover up. I see social anxiety related to these issues: toxic people, self worth, toxic shame, intrinsic locus of control, perfectionism, trauma and regulation. For some unknown reason if we google social anxiety - we will not find these concepts at all. We will be misdiagnosed as paranoid and CBT will instruct us to change our thoughts, as if our thoughts can influence other people - so advice to socially anxious people is totally wrong.
Without self worth we are cripples. This means if we try to fix ourselves and nitpick our mistakes and feel ashamed about them, we will perpetuate trauma.
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(12.6.2022)
@Cameron Bass "I think what we need is a breakthrough. Idk, like bungee jumping, public speaking etc. something extraordinary to trump or override the trauma." You are correct. But think about it - social anxiety started as trauma that was inflicted by toxic person. Toxic person, toxic behaviour: nagging, complaining, being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when we were children and when we needed validation - since our persona was developing. Long term exposure to narcissistic abuse causes brain injury - google it. So the one and only problem are toxic people - so this is our clue what our breakthrough ought to be based and reflected upon. Bungee jumping or people pleasing yourself and the crowed to be excellent speaker - will only distract you from the real issue. These are defense mechanisms, ego defense mechanisms - they do not work to remove the trauma - they only soothe our anxiety. Soon enough they become like drugs, you do them often to relieve anxiety, but anxiety is upcoming, it is like flood and you do nothing to stop the flood. You do not make embankment or dikes.
I see extraordinary act as you call it, or embankment or dikes against flood of anxiety - that we learn concepts around trauma such as Polyvagal theory and amygdala hijacking - so that we know reactions and defense mechanisms and that we understand that anxiety is triggering us and thus controls our life. We need to take the driver's seat and manage our life so that our decisions are no longer effected by anxiety.
This is what I call retort. It is not assertiveness - since assertiveness does not work with manipulative people - who are true cause of social anxiety. Retort means to do the right thing and to learn self validation and self worth, that we base our decisions and ability to solve issues in life based on intrinsic locus of control. With toxic shame and trauma we base our actions and decisions on external locus of control - we seek to sooth other people's anger so that we do no get punished by them and in the same time we want , we crave for their approval, admiration, validation, recognition and that they treat us with respect. All these automatic urges, unspoken requirements and unconscious demands that we place for other people stem from trauma.
So once we understand this process inside our mind - we will be able to form better decision which I call retort. This information how to handle difficult people in correct, functional, healthy manner is very hard to extract.
For example, Jordan Peterson tells us to become monsters, to show teeth. This does not work - since we can end up becoming mass murderers if we get triggered too many times too quickly and we decide to be monster. This is not healthy, it is not functional.
"Social anxiety is such a broad area. Doctors will try to prescribe medicine to reset your neurotransmitters and believe that’s all just a load of bs."
Yes, this is another complex issue with social anxiety - that medical community got it wrong. The research in 1990s that was based for CBT therapy for social anxiety was based on faulty research. They researched shy people, not socially anxious. So their conclusions are totally wrong.
In short: Shyness - is when we feel scared in social situations, but fears wear off as soon as we are in social situation. Social anxiety - is when we feel scared in social situations, but fears to not wear off and we think about fears before, during and after the event (rumination and PureOCD). Social anxiety disorder - is psychiatric condition that defines 1% of population: people who are scared of social situation even with safe people and safe environment, where there is psychological security. So this disorder is connected with paranoid delusion.
CBT lumps all these 3 together - and they treat all these 3 with hallucination explanation. That you will solve your fears by ABC Model, they claim actually that we invent abuse, that it is product of our thinking (which is incorrect) and that we are able to change reality of other people by changing our thoughts (which is actually very unhealthy instruction). So CBT is dangerous therapy - that does not understand social anxiety and it solves issues with a form of lobotomy - quick incision in your psyche - that you block your emotions. They actually use band aid therapy that is generally used in mentally ill hospitals to calm suicidal patients in order to calm them down. This method is not healthy and it is not intended for periods longer than a week.
"Eliminating phone activity" Yes, and we already do this automatically. Social anxiety is a way of our brain to protect us from the trauma and repetition of possible trauma in the future. So we isolate, we withdraw. We decline social events - it is because we protect ourselves from unresolved pain of trauma that is stuck inside our body. Anxiety is actually communication method from our trauma - that tries to propel us to seek the cure for trauma: how to retort to toxic people in healthy, functional manner without wars, without explosions, without drama, without being monster.
Because there are situations in life where you cannot eliminate toxic, fake, phony activity, where you cannot cut contact with toxic people - for example job or when you need some help or service from someone toxic, when you share finances or children with them - you cannot cut contact immediately - perhaps you will be forced to be with them for the next 5 or 10 years. Perhaps you are in jail for something you did not do, and you are forced to be around toxic people. What then? Then we must find way how to deal with social anxiety in correct manner.
Denial, repression, obfuscation, ignoring - will not help. Anxiety will still be inside.
We need breakthrough activity in the form of changing our mindset which was traumatized and it is now trumped and it is stomped in growth.
Education about trauma is the first step. We have to realize we were traumatized and there is trauma stuck inside our body. And we need to heal it.
With trauma we will realize that we do not know how to react to difficult people - our methods are wrong and we need to change those.
So you will see that trauma is connected with toxic shame - which means we have no self worth inside us. And any explanation that we need to fix ourselves add up to that toxic shame.
We are missing self love, self validation, self acceptance - since trauma targets and destroys self worth first. Then you develop external reference locus of control, trauma bonding to other people - you seek guidance and explanation from other people. This attracts toxic people in our lives - and they nitpick and criticize us - making us slave to their opinion and criticism.
So self worth is missing component here. Ability to build self worth means that we accept ourselves fully, without placing conditions or trials to make ourselves better or to upgrade ourselves. We need to accept our roots first - then we can upgrade whatever you like.
After this process - we need to learn how to deal and manage people and events similar to our original trauma. That is what I call retort: finding functional and healthy way how to deal with toxic people.
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Marshall taught me the concept of fawning - it was ground breaking for me - because until I learned this concept exist at all, I labeled this concept as people pleasing, as a weakness, something that defines me as a coward, passive and unmanly, and I realized that I cannot do anything about it, so it turned into self-prophecy where I decided to be passive and depend on kindness of strangers to get by in life - without actually looking for ways to do anything about toxic shame and external referencing nor about trauma bonding. I was stuck in being passive and immobile as instructed by narcissistic society to self blame myself and self-pathologize something that later I learned is trauma wound - and that actually needs a lot of love and acceptance - not rejection, mocking or hatred.
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(13.6.2022)
I would also focus on clearing up stuff with that narcissistic father. So the guy told 4 year old own child that he hates her? What kind of person do this? This is criminally insane person!
You have to be mentally ill to do this. I would allow this anger and hate and label to be expressed toward the true source of injury. We will repeat the pattern from such kind of abuse in all our relationships later on - if we do not learn from it. The lesson here is : there are mentally ill people out there - and we cannot let these types of people near us. This includes listening to their opinion from the place thinking this is a safe person (father). Well the lesson is no matter how someone might be close to us, we can allow ourselves to label them as trash, something that is not valuable to pay attention. We try to be good and nice and to accept all people - since this is healthy, and this need to be healthy and normal creates social anxiety. However becoming aware that there are toxic people out there is also healthy and realistic - when we take into consideration the fact in the world where we living, in this reality. There are predatory sick people out there and it is ok to cut contact with them, even mentally.
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"People are not near aware of us as we think they are" Narcissists are aware. Psychopaths are aware. Machiavellians are aware. Borderliners (aka Karens) are aware. Parasites, emotional vampires are aware. Highly intelligent people are aware. Highly sensitive people are aware. Traumatized people are aware. Nervous people are aware. Neurotics are aware.
So our anxiety just might be correct. CBT tries to explain to us that we are hallucinating social anxiety. In the same time CBT ignores Complex Trauma - being exposed to bully event and long term narcissistic abuse that made us now aware of toxic, intrusive people.
CBT lumps these 3 separate conditions all together in 1: Shyness - when people feel fear in social situations but it wears of quickly Social anxiety - when people feel fear in social situations but it does not wear off and people ruminate before, during and after Social anxiety disorder - 1% of people actually has it: it is feeling fear even is safe situations, with the most safest people in the world for whom you know would never hurt you in any way (kindergarten, Oprah, Gandhi, Mandela, Mother Theresa, Jesus). This is linked to Paranoid Delusional disorder.
CBT lumps all these 3 into one condition and this causes a great injustice and wrong approach.
Our anxiety is as Jung and Freud discovered - is a communication method from our autonomous entity inside our mind called unconsciousness. Anxiety tries to talk to us about something. Well, social anxiety is obviously alarm system that we need to take care of - not to ignore it. We were abused in the past - and now we are highly aware of toxic and intrusive people.
So natural solution is that we focus on toxic people - how to recognize them, how to retort to them in healthy, functional and proper manner.
With trauma we do not know concept called self worth. Instead we have toxic shame and external reference locus of control, codependency issues and trauma bonding due to Complex Trauma. That is not hallucination, this is real and we need to heal it.
"In noticeable shirts, nothing's changed, they get used to it" And they develop people pleasing, fawning and pushover issues - since they do not know how to handle toxic people. Without self worth we have never built our persona. We were stuck in development due to trauma and invalidation when growing up (constant and relentless criticism 24/7 and being exposed to adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process it in any other way than developing safety mechanisms such as social anxiety).
"focusing on ourselves, making us feel other people are watching us" This is myth. Socially anxious people are highly focused on other people. They look their facial expressions and their tone of voice. They are zoomed into other people too closely, like with a microscope. This is due to trauma and expectation of being attacked by other people. Fear of criticism from other people is social anxiety. So with social anxiety we process a lot around us, we look who is happy, who is safe, and our codependency makes us form relationships with people who are happy and have mask and who are charming - and this way we attract toxic people - the same narcissists who broke us in the first place when abuse has taken place.
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"You need you guard to protect yourself." Yep! You got it. Social anxiety is message from within - that we prepare ourselves how to deal toxic people who causes our social fears in the first place. To deal with them in proper, functional, healthy manner, that we never learned in our toxic environment full of invalidation and hatred. Social anxiety is not hallucination - it is repetition of trauma - and we expect to be attacked again - so our mind tries to tell us that we learn how to guard and protect ourselves. Not all people are kind, nice, healthy, sensitive and friendly like us. There are predatory types of personalities out there that appear kind, nice, healthy, sensitive and friendly but this is only a mask for them to hurt others, since they are toxic and sick.
I tried exposure for 20 years as CBT instructed me - and I was left with people pleasing issues, being pushover and fawning - since CBT never instructed me how to deal with toxic people. CBT only explained to me that if I meet toxic person - that fears that I fear are illusion and that I must expose to bullies and somehow magically fear will be gone. In reality - I was exploited and taken advantage, humiliated and toxically ashamed by toxic people - and I never retort to them since I was being told by CBT that this humiliation is my delusion, that it does not take place. That I am too sensitive and I have to take it like a man. I was humiliated, I was laughed and mocked for the way I dressed, how I looked, my appearance, I was accused of untrue actions, since people jump to conclusions too quickly - and I never retort, I never had self-advocacy, I never confronted them - since I was being told by CBT that fears that I feel are illusion and that toxic people do not exist. So CBT ought to be banned, it is wrong therapy intended for paranoid delusional disorder. CBT is not intended for people who are in the contact with toxic people.
If Johnny Depp had listen to CBT, he would be broke now, and he would lost the court - since he would explain to himself that abuse from Amber was hallucination and that fears he feel around her must be ignored and stifled down. Instead he did the correct thing: he cut contact and he documented the abuse. HE did the right steps when in situation with toxic person. CBT does not explain what to do when we cannot cut contact with toxic person. How to endure situations when we are trapped with someone who is hysterical and dangerous - ignoring our fears we feel around such person is totally wrong approach.
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With social anxiety we do not know how to handle someone's criticism. So problem are toxic people who feel entitled to be intrusive and comment our appearance. We are not the problem here. We need instruction what to do when someone is mean and rude. What to say. How to react. What to do.
What to say - Mind your own business. How to react - You are being rude. And end the conversation. What to do - expose ourselves and deliberately look stupid, wrong and what we think others will label about us as unacceptable, again and again.
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Keep your safety behaviours. Unless we learn how to retort to toxic people in functional and proper manner, it is ok to have our old safety mechanisms. Without them we will break apart and create new neurosis and new trauma, new fears - and we will never have courage to go back.
Problem are toxic people, we are not the problem. We have toxic shame inside us and thus we do not have self worth. Without self worth we do not know how to handle toxic people. It is viscious circle. If we convince ourselves that we are the problem and that our anxiety is hallucination - we will add up to our toxic shame and we will never build self worth, where self worth is our immunity.
Self worth means that we accept ourselves as we are, with all our safety mechanisms. Unless we love and accept ourselves - we will stay stuck in hiding and not exposing ourselves. When we love and accept ourselves - we will cut contact with toxic people and we will learn how to retort to them - and with time we will naturally shed off safety mechanisms. This is the process that other kids went through in their developing years. With trauma - we are stuck in development, we were arrested in trauma year - and we are stuck - because we do not know how to handle trauma: toxic people. We do not know how to recognize them, how to retort to them nor how to handle them.
The more we educate ourselves about trauma and toxic people and ways how to deal with them, our anxiety will diminish.
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"I’m curious to know what advice or tips are BS and which merit truth" You are totally correct. With social anxiety we do not have self worth inside us. So we have external reference locus of control - which means we trust other people, we distrust ourselves. So we are prime targets for Machiavellians who claim some cure for some need that we struggle with - so we are easily swayed and manipulated by crooks and toxic people.
We lack philosophical discovery from Socrates that there is not truth at all. This means, we need to develop self worth - so that we have our own truth - collected by all evidence around us. And then judge what is truth - with the cost of being wrong and mistaken and making a fool of ourselves.
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Trauma. It depends how to heal it.
social akwardness can be divided in 3 totally separated entities that CBT unfortunately lumps all into one: Shyness: when we feel fear in social situations, but fear wears off naturally as soon as we enter social situation and we are never neurotic or hysterical about what happened ever again until next event. Social anxiety: we feel fear in social situation but fear does not wear off. We ruminate before, during and after the event. Social anxiety disorder: 1% of people have this: if is fear of any social situation, including the safe ones where there is no danger at all - for example with children in kindergarten, or with some universally known figure to be the safest and kindest person in the world. This is connected with Paranoid delusional disorder.
Many people google their shy and anxiety feelings - and google tells them that what they feel is social anxiety disorder - and CBT instructs them to ABC Model where you are being told that if you are abused - that your own thoughts are creating the abuse and that toxic people do not exist. That you are hallucinating the abuse. And if you feel fear when someone is violent, criminal and dangerous - that your feelings are illness, delusion, illusion and hallucination. So they will instruct you to "heal" this "sickness" by exposing yourself to dangerous and sick people. That is why CBT ought to be banned.
You heal anxiety by education. You learn that anxiety is Freud and Jung discovery about autonomous entity inside us called unconsciousness. Which means that we have brain that help us process reality on deeper level and help us to be protected by toxic people. Our logical mind cannot detect someone being manipulative. But our deeper parts of brain can pick up cues and clues of someone being manipulative. Deeper part of brain cannot communicate this message to us by voice. Instead it uses emotions, such as fears and anxiety. So we have to learn to take anxiety as communication method. It is not something to ignore or stifle down or to label as sickness and reject it.
In social awkwardness this message is: learn how to detect toxic people and how to retort to them. There are predatory personalities out there. With social anxiety we were exposed to these people in our past - and our brain learned the lesson how to detect these bullies in the future. IT tries to give us this message by fears that we feel in social situations. So we can trust ourselves - we can accept our anxiety and look out for toxic people and confront them in healthy, proper, functional manner - which may include cutting contact with them. When we reject our social awkwardness - we will destroy our self worth and we will ignore our unconsciousness, our ability to protect ourselves from within. This is highly unhealthy and damaging to our psyche, it can lead to mental illness an neuroticism if we deny ourselves permission to have emotions and feelings which are not chirpy and happy all the time.
Toxic shame make us believe that we are stupid and that we cannot trust ourselves - and this way we never develop self worth. Toxic people use toxic shame to control us and to destroy our self worth - and this way they can exploit us. As result - we will feel social awkwardness - it is deep chunk of ice of our mind that is healthy and that cannot be destroyed by toxic people. It is our inner GPS, it is our soul, it is our super -ego, it is spiritual part of us inside us. We listen to it what it has to say, and we will be mentally healthy and balanced.
Social awkwardness is attempt by our brain to make us learn about psychology and philosophy how to have healthy life without drama and without toxic people who are creating drama and chaos.
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What we do when there are toxic people out there? When there is real threat?
Why medical community does not tell us how to handle and manage toxic people? How to handle someone who is hysterical and we cannot cut contact - for example due to job?
Why are we explained that all people are chirpy and happy - while in reality they are not and there are predatory types of people out there.
Why are we not explained the concepts around toxic shame and external reference locus of control and Humanistic psychology - where we accept ourselves and build our self worth?
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I would accept it.. If we overthink - it is sign we are highly intelligent. Einstein said: I am not smart, I just stay with my thoughts longer than others.
Brain is looking for danger, but with social anxiety, we were traumatized in the past - so brain wants us to learn how to handle and manage similar trauma in the future. If we overthink - this is a sign we do not know how to handle toxic people. Brain wants us to learn how. Brain propel us to analyze and think about the abuse that traumatized us before. We do not know what to say to abusive people.. We have no idea how to recognize them when they wear mask - and there are always red flags how to detect someone manipulative.
If we label ourselves as someone with faulty brain - we will destroy our self worth. We will build toxic shame - and with toxic shame internalized, we will attract toxic people - the same abusive people who caused us trauma in the first place. It is viscious circle. So accepting ourselves breaks this circle. Accepting our own quirks, perks, quirks, irritations, annoyances.
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Shyness is feeling fear in social situation but it wears off quickly and you forget all about it. Social anxiety is feeling fear in social situation but it does not wear off - you think about it before, during and after event. Social anxiety disorder is fear in all social situations, including the safe ones - with the safest person in the world. This is connected to Paranoid Delusional disorder and 1 % of people has it.
When we google our social fears, google will direct us to social anxiety disorder and thus people will misdiagnose themselves with severe mental illness - delusional disorder.
Unfortunately medical healthy industry is toxic itself so it also lumps all these 3 together into one and CBT instructs people to believe that their social fears are hallucination. They use ABC method which explains that if you are abused, that your abuse is product of your own thoughts. It explains that if you feel afraid from someone violent and deranged, that you are creating your fears with your thoughts and that there are not dangerous toxic people out there.
Social anxiety - which most people have (being afraid to go to shops) is result of complex trauma, CPTSD. We were traumatized by abusive, toxic people and we were scared into feeling social anxiety. There is trauma stuck inside our body - and it works via triggers and flashbacks. Going to shop might be trigger for people who were exposed to adult hysteria when their child brain was developing. Afraid of potential criticism is trauma from being exposed to relentless, constant, unfair criticism 24/7 - long term exposure to narcissistic abuse causes brain injury - google it. So toxic people can damage our brain by their abuse, criticism and nagging and complaining.
In this way, exposure to toxic people will not help. We will develop new defense mechanisms (behaviour that help us to deal with someone rude and intrusive) such as people pleasing, fawning and being pushover.
Not all people are healthy and good and nice as we are. Some people are traumatized themselves, but they decided to handle their trauma by exploiting and causing harm to others. So it is ok to avoid and cut contact when something tell us that someone is abusive and toxic. We are not meant to be friends with all people in the world. That is impossible. We cannot please all people out there - all people have their own ideas what is good and acceptable and what they dislike.
Instead of mere exposure - we need education how to handle toxic people. How to retort to them. What to say to toxic people. What to do when we cannot cut contact (due to job) - how we react in correct, proper, healthy, functional manner without isolation, without hiding, without drama, without explosions. Toxic people causes our social anxiety. Toxic people are clue how to heal it.
Being shy is not illness. Being introverted and not liking socializing is not sickness. Self worth means that we accept ourselves and do what we like to do. Toxic shame sets us up to external reference locus of control - where we seek other people approval and validation and admiration and their recognition. That is unhealthy. And abuse set us up to develop toxic shame, to destroy our self worth and to seek approval from other people. This will turn into condition called codependency - where we feel good when we fix other people's problems, when we rescue them from their hysteria, when we please them in order that they do not punish us or throw temper tantrum.
So again - we need to know how to handle toxic people who are throwing temper tantrum. How to retort to people who cannot take no for answer, people who become violent when we refuse their request. Learning how to deal with those toxic people is solution to our social anxiety. We are not the problem. Fears and anxiety we feel are natural reaction to abnormal people, abnormal situations and abnormal events that we witness and we do not know how to handle and manage it. Now knowing how to handle toxic people is social anxiety.
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"Can you explain how these people damage our brains? I’d be interested in knowing that. "
Firstpost: In a blog published on Psych Central, author and researcher Kim Saeed wrote that narcissistic abuse acts like traumatic stress and can lead to post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Studies suggest that long-term traumatic stress affects three major parts of the brain - the hippocampus, prefrontal cortex, and amygdala.
Verywellhealth: "Some examples of long-term effects include mood and anxiety disorders, physical ailments such as headaches, stomachaches, or body aches, the inability to get a good night's sleep or having nightmares, and a lowered sense of self-worth."
Psychcentral: "By now, most of us know that repeated emotional trauma leads to both PTSD and C-PTSD, which should be reason enough to leave an abusive partner. But, what many people don't realize is that over time, these repeated emotional injuries shrink the hippocampus, which is responsible for memory and learning, while enlarging the amygdala, which houses primitive emotions such as fear, grief, guilt, envy, and shame."
Yeah, it is important to realize that toxic people cause us invisible injury inside our brain. This injury makes us stuck in worry loops (PureOCD) and it makes us see everything black - as pessimist, that for example difficult uncomfortable situation will never end.
Also, narcissistic abuse (neglect and invalidation) messes up our attachment styles. For example Patrick Teahan LICSW talks about this in his video: "How A Narcissistic Parents Affects Attachment" He says: "Anxious attachment: "Get you to tolerate me" Fearful: "I need you to survive" Dismissive: "You'll mess my peace"" Where Secure attachment is I am ok, you are ok. There is no drama about it.
Patrick Teahan LICSW: "Neglect is personal message that we're not lovable, that we're not ok, we're not doing something right and we have to find some secret code to get the parent to engage. Which is origin of codependency." There is "Mind game – you have to like this in order for me to tolerate you."
All self help books about social anxiety are based on CBT and they totally ignore toxic people factor and trauma - so we are not being told the truth about social anxiety.
So it is like having a veil over our eyes and not being able to see reality clearly.
Hopefully this information about Complex Trauma will open our eyes.
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"There is no obligation, no responsibility to stay put in an environment or with people who adversely impact your mental health"
Unfortunately there is: 1) we need to have job. Without money - we get broke thrown into street. Job could be full of toxic people. 2) we might have kids with toxic person - and no money. We cannot throw kids into street or give them away 3) we might be in prison convicted for false charges - we cannot escape from toxic environment here 4) we might have social anxiety and feel afraid of life and everything - and CBT falsely tell us that these fears are hallucination and that we must stuck and stay stuck with toxic people to gain magical cure 5) we might have trauma and codependency issues that we are not aware of, so our triggers dysregulate us and this mental fuzzy unclarity makes us stuck with toxic people 6) we might need some help or service which only toxic people have - so we are stuck with them 7) we might not have money - so we cannot relocate and move unless we want to be homeless and expose ourselves to danger and environmental extremes 8) altruistic narcissist appear to us as friend and they use honeymoon periods and charm to keep us stuck in Karpman Drama Triangle and they give us support and validation as hooking up system - so we get addicted to them without knowing they are toxic since they help us sometimes 9) Manipulative people gaslight us so we are not aware that they are parasites - so we stay stuck with them 10) toxic person might be psychopath - so they threaten to kill us if we leave- look at femicide all around the world
If life was so easy - that we solve our problems by walking away - there would be no problems in the world, people would already do it.
"Why not tell other person that he is displaying sick behaviour. That person's bahviour is adversely affecting the mental well being of other people. Do that without violence." I did that. I was yelled back, they did not stop. I got thrown out of car. I got them turn their back without listening to me. I got fired. ---
@Shannon Williams The idea about Exposure comes from Second law from thermodynamics where it is states that objects left in isolation are prone to distortion. "if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state." This is also commonly referred to as entropy."
In psychology - if person is without human contact - he will start to hallucinate and create his own world, similar to Robinson Crusoe or Tom Hanks stuck on that island after airplane disaster where he imagined doll to be living creature.
That is why CBT will try to instruct us to expose.
However life is never simple. And life does not work with general rules, unfortunately.
Trauma messes this part up. There is toxic shame - that people can manipulate us into mental imbalance. There is abuse that people can manipulate us into distortion: Long term exposure to narcissistic abuse causes brain injury. And also - people will tend to respond to abuse in unhealthy ways : which is called safety mechanisms. CBT presumes that we will magically heal ourselves and start to love ourselves and start to defend ourselves if we expose ourselves to toxic people.
Nope, It will make things worse.
Social anxiety is our brain reaction to trauma and abuse: that we 1) feel fear from anxiety and 2) that we isolate ourselves from the source of pain and hurt. Similarly if you burn your fingers - you will avoid the object that burned you. This is totally natural and normal behaviour.
We are dealing here with trauma. Social anxiety is part of Complex Trauma.
Exposure will help only after we healed the trauma: that we do not react anymore to triggers. And from social anxiety perspective: this means that we will heal when we figure out how to recognize, deal and manage toxic, difficult, hysterical people in healthy, functional and proper manner.
Currently, our strategies, knowledge and reactions to toxic people are incomplete. They are missing data. This causes us to feel social anxiety: we have no idea how to handle toxic people in healthy manner.
For example, I was on Twitter since 2009. I had only a few months ago learned that I can and that I am allowed to use block and mute button. Before that I was convinced if I block people - that this means I am having social anxiety (as instructed by CBT) and that I am not man enough to handle all people - so I must not block anyone - to show that I am masculine and strong, as instructed by trauma and toxic people.
This is what we need in real life. To find out options that are healthy - that are available to us - but due to wrong instructions we do not use them to protect ourselves.
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(14.6.2022)
What we do when the other person is hysterical and even dangerous? When they are passive aggressive and "get revenge" on our refusal? What then? What when person is not friendly and when they have evil agenda? We can look at femicide around the world that some people cannot take no or rejection.
"Friendship was not genuine" What in situation where there is no friendship and where you cannot cut contact with them? For example - at job, or when you need some service or help which you cannot get from any other resource? This situations are much more common than toxic friendships - and we never get answer what to do in such situations. I learned that this information how not to be pushover when we have no other choice but fawn is obfuscated and it is very expensive and time consuming to get.
This is why all pushover videos on you tube are not good. They do not address the real problem: toxic people. Instead we are given instruction to stand up for ourselves - which does not help at all in such very common real life situations and even more - it comes off as toxic shame.
Peter Levine (expert in trauma) said that advice that is directed at our faults can be used as excellent tool for triggering our shame and guilt. It does not help at all. We need concrete information how to handle situations where it is dangerous to stand up for yourself.
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Confirmation bias is a form of matrix. Keeps us stuck in Plato's cave. With out thoughts explaining our reality. No matter what we look, we will confirm our already known knowledge which may be delusion and bias.
"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values."
The Catch 22 is that if we do not have strong belief in our own thoughts - we will develop toxic shame - and double binding mechanism will make us slave with building external reference locus of control, which means we will observe other people as gods, superior, while we are inferior. Once again, we are slaves in a cave without knowing about it. Now with other people explaining our reality.
The solution was proposed by Descartes: Evil demon hypothesis. And Socrates: that we doubt everything and ask questions to anything - including our own convictions with external ones. To believe and to doubt in the same time everything.
This information is obfuscated. Even Descartes true quote is truncated and hidden from general public. Famous Descartes quote “I think; therefore I am.” (even in Latin Cogito, ergo sum) is actually censored quote. Google Descartes and his quotes and you will get this half baked quote - Cogito, ergo sum. Even in movies and media.
His full quote was: "'I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am."
“Dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum. (" I doubt, therefore I think, I think therefore I am") ~ René Descartes Where doubt is the central word here.
He said: “If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things.”
We live in sick, narcissistic, deceptive, Machiavellian world and toxic manipulative people are like veil over our eyes - we do not see reality clearly, there is no clarity. We are being deceived. Even great Carl Sagan said this: “For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” ― Carl Sagan
Carl Sagan — 'Human beings have a demonstrated talent for self-deception when their emotions are stirred.'
“A deception arises, sometimes innocently but collaboratively, sometimes with cynical premeditation. Usually the victim is caught up in a powerful emotion - wonder, fear, greed, grief. Credulous acceptance of baloney can cost you money; that’s what P.T. Barnum meant when he said, “There’s a sucker born every minute’. But it can be much more dangerous than that, and when governments and societies lose the capacity for critical thinking, the results can be catastrophic, however sympathetic we may be to those who have bought the baloney.” ― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
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Classical CBT explains to socially anxious people that their social fears are illusion and that they must expose to toxic people. Can you imagine the damage this is doing to people who are in contact with narcissists? CBT does not even give the information how to deal with manipulative Machiavellians - they simply state the panic you feel is delusion and that there is no threat, it is all in your thoughts. Mayoclinic definition of panic: "A panic attack is a sudden episode of intense fear that triggers severe physical reactions when there is no real danger or apparent cause. " There is no explanation what happens when there is real danger, how you label that and what you do? We live in sick deceptive society that make us sick and make us think that we are sick for feeling sick around sick people.
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Pushover videos pathologize our diplomacy skills. This is very dangerous.
We are good, kind people. And then toxic people and ignorant people will explain that we have to isolate ourselves or become monsters or be assertive. All three are highly dysfunctional answers to toxic people around us. Toxic people who enjoy drama for the sake of drama will love that we are assertive and that we stay stuck in Karpman Drama Triangle with them, so assertiveness is hoax.
There is alternative, however this information is not easily available. There is specific way how to handle difficult people. There is change in our mindset - to realize that it is trauma behind being pushover. IT is not something to say casually and brush it off as insignificant.
Toxic people cause brain damage, google: long term exposure to narcissistic abuse cause brain injury.
So we need intelligent solution to deceptive manipulative people, many of whom appear as altruistic, but they are altruistic narcissists.
One common retort to toxic people is: I disagree with you. And end of conversation - nothing to add here. We are not taught things like that. Something that will protect our space, that will protect our opinion, our self worth and that will not engage in drama, nor we will be angry - and thus toxic people will control us via our anger emotions.
We are not taught this. Instead we get fake advice that does not work in real life - we only feel inferior since we are explained that we are the problem for being kind, nice, open, healthy and friendly.
We are not explained that toxic people are the only problem - and we lack education how to handle them in proper, healthy, functional manner.
If we decide to be proud and engage in assertiveness - we will develop borderline personality disorder - with mood swings, other people will control our anger, and we will express it by criticizing and nagging and complaining which we will explain as assertiveness. So we need better answers than we are being told by general advice about being "pushover".
Peter Levine said if we pathologize ourselves, we will make trauma even deeper.
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(15.6.2022)
People who are afraid of confrontation did not choose to be afraid. It is product of being exposed to untreated mentally ill person in close contact usually during growing up. Being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria in times when child brain was unable to process the abuse in any other way than fawning to hysterical people. So it is condition called Complex Trauma. This means, you cannot change this at the press of a button. Neither by being aware of this issue. It helps to know but the fear will still be stuck inside, due to trauma.
"confrontation in business" What happens when you get fired? Will you pay your bills with respect? Sometimes, in certain situations you have to use diplomacy skills and package your message in flowers.
"confrontation is necessary part of process" I see it like this - if you are in situation where you need to show some person respect all the time, and if this person trespass your boundaries - perhaps this person is mentally ill. Perhaps this person enjoys conflict due to abuse in childhood where they learned this is the only way that is normal to them. So if you get into argument with such person - you are actually not solving anything - this person loves you loosing your nerve and getting worked out about nothing. They do no care what you speak and say - if anyone crosses someone's boundaries - this person is abnormal. It means that this person who is crossing someone's boundaries is not socialized and they do not know unwritten social rules.
Also chaos theory tell us that butterfly effect tell us that all evil in the world is domino effect of hatred and criticism and complaining - which toxic people use to manipulate easy targets.
"earn your respect" If we build our respect upon other people - this is called External reference locus of control. This means you depend on approval and validation of other people. You can do this in passive way by fawning to others - or you can do this with fight response - by demanding respect, as you named it. The problem with demanding respect is that there are toxic people out there and there are mentally ill people out there. Toxic people will manipulate you, and mentally ill people might harm you - and for what? To earn their respect? Problem with earning your respect is that you are making yourself hypnotized to other people, you depend on their reactions and their actions - you are making them your master. You believe that they have power over your respect. This is very common in some mental imbalances such as social anxiety and and mental issues with toxic shame. Toxic shame is when you are convinced that deep down you are inept, unworthy and unacceptable. Then this belief triggers you to seek worth in other people - that they acknowledge you, and you feel wounded and injured if they criticize and complain about some of your mistake, or flaw or ignorance. Then you depend on social approval - so you want to be seen as superior and good and validated in society's eyes (your friends) - so you pick fights where you want to prove your respect in the eyes of society. This mentality is not healthy, it is based on toxic shame, buried deep down inside you.
In short - you might think that alpha male specimen is someone who doesn't care what other people think and he is strong and masculine and can prove his strength by fights. But look what happens when you tell that guy that his t-shirt is gay and sissy. He will never wear this shirt ever again. So you basically can control him and his actions and life decisions. Manipulative people called Machiavellians do this. Marketing and politicians do it all the time. They will explain to you that you must be a man - so you will go to shooting rampage if you feel not respected. These toxic people therefore sniff out that your biggest concern in life is demanding respect - and they manipulate you. They control you - through your belief. This is not good. This means that you are slave, like in a matrix - without knowing that you are slave to manipulative, toxic people. They simply scan your desires and then trigger your strong beliefs - and you are hooked on them without knowing it. This is called brainwashing. We got to realize that without deep self worth we are easy target to toxic people - even though it seems to us that we are in control.
You cannot fight monster by becoming monster yourself. What is the difference between monster and you as just and good person?
For example, you see that there are jerks in gym. You see that they are irritating and annoying - and if you play by their rules, you become like them. So - paradox is - if you are like them, why are you feeling disrespected? If you stoop down to their mind games, you are one of them.
Respect really comes from within. It is called intrinsic locus of control, self worth. It means that we rely on ourselves to give respect, that we do not need to prove it to others. IT is self-validation.
In sick society, we believe that expressing your opinion is confrontation. It is not. You can express your standpoint without destroying other people. I see "confrontation" as simply being authentic. Expressing your thoughts and opinions as your truth. Being honest, being transparent. Stating facts. If I have no ill will and if I have no evil agenda - there is no reason to self-censor myself. Toxic people cannot handle truth nor transparency since they do have hidden agenda. Now that is why they see our truth as conflict and confrontation - while in reality we are simply telling the truth, how it really is. It is said that nobody likes the truth, it destroys their illusions. And there is a saying that one who speaks the truth will be alone - most people cannot handle the truth, it is discomforting to know what their transgressions are. But we are not hurting anyone - we can speak the truth and be kind and nice while doing it. We can package our truth to think about other person's feelings and how they will receive it without injury.
In sick society, we believe there are 2 ways to handle confrontation.. 1) to fight and to be violent and hysterical or 2) to be passive, to fawn, to people please and avoid conflicts.
There is actually third way and this information is really hard to extract. Media do not show how. Sociology and psychology do show - and we need education to learn it.
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"Being nice gets you in trouble" This is recipe for Borderline personality disorder. Being in contact with toxic person gets you into trouble. Deciding to argue as a way of communication is being stuck in Karpman Drama Triangle.
"Being nice prevents you from good salary, finding true love or inventing something" This is not true. What is the definition of good salary? If you depend on approval and acknowledgment of other people - your salary will never be good enough because you will try to impress other people with material things. That is not healthy. Do we have some experiment data that shows that we can self-pathologize ourselves and magically it will effect our salary, love? Invention does not come with mind full of hate.
"checking on your partner too much" This is not nice. This is codependency and borderline and narcissistic issue.
"too positive" This is not nice. This is toxic positivity. Many people who are not nice are toxically positive, since they have hidden agenda - and thus they are not nice.
"thinking you know what's best for your partner" Again, this is codependency. This is not nice. Seems to me that Jordan Peterson brainwashed people into false definitions.
"being a people pleaser" Fawning stems from trauma. This is not choice. This is being traumatized to learned helplessness and conditional training like circus animal or Pavlovian dog. Once again, this is not nice. You are messing up definitions and mislabel them. Labeling people pleasing as self-pathology you are not solving it, you are adding up to trauma.
"never disagreeing" You are talking here about codependency. Addiction to please other person.
"Solving someone's problems" You are talking about codependency. And you are not helping at all. Codependency is not solved though toxic shaming.
"being over protective" Dude, you need to learn more about psychology. This is narcissism, borderline and codependency - and you lumped it all as "nice". :D That is misleading.
"Take care of yourself" People are already doing that, this is why they are 'nice'. People repeat the patterns which they learn from dysfunctional and toxic environment without love and validation.
Jordan Peterson is prone to over simplifications and biases and prejudices and he is prone to talk about certain matter (being monster) from egocentric point of view - he sees only one angle. This means, that he is prone to change his story, so he is vague. In short, he is unreliable narrator.
If you fight the monster by being monster - it is paradox: this means you are monster - so you do not have to fight it. You are the same. So we are talking here about people who are naturally evil, they are psychopaths. They do not care for other people, they have no empathy - and they feel they are entitled to whatever they want. You need to remember that there are always bigger psychopaths than you. And that you will achieve anything in life by stealing and parasiting over - since you are unable to produce it on your own. Once people start to learn about toxic people, you will be cut off from your narcissistic supply.
So being nice is when you are nurturing interdependence, diplomacy and invention, building up better world. We live in narcissistic sick manipulative world - because mentally ill people confuse "being nice" with their illness: deep wound inside that they cover up by covering up codependency.
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In 2015 I noticed that my social anxiety got worse, so I gathered all self help books and tried to see it from the lens of being afraid what other people think. And one thing that came up was Intrusive thoughts. That word lead me to discovery of PureOCD. And Mark Freeman talked in his you tube videos - he explained it that our intrusive thoughts come from anxiety, being afraid and trying to correct our fears. He proposes ERP, ACT techniques to accept intrusive thoughts -and it helped me until I was in situation with toxic person who was demanding me to do something I was scared of doing. Then techniques no longer helped me.
Fast forward to 2021 - and I realize that this is Complex trauma issue. So I learned a lot of concepts that are hidden from us - from self help books: such as External reference locus of control and intrinsic locus of control, Fawning, Polyvagal Theory, Emotional Dysregulation. So I educated myself in psychology and philosophy. Learned about there is no absolute truth and that Piaget discovered developmental stages that we ought to go through.
To make long story short, I realized that intrusive thoughts are voices from our unconsciousness. It is separate entity that Freud and Jung discovered - it is that chunk of ice that is beneath the surface. That is where intrusive thoughts come from. They are alarm system, they are communication method from our own mind. Mind cannot talk through us via logical thoughts - instead it uses anxiety and fears and triggers and defense mechanisms to talk to us. Once we realize that this is similar situation to the movie Arrival (2016) - A linguist is recruited by the military to assist in translating alien communications. That are intrusive thoughts. We are getting message from alien and we need to learn how to communicate with it.
Ignoring will not help. Fighting will not help. Going along with it will not help. There is message - and I learned the message is that we are living in sick, manipulative world. There are a lot of toxic people out there and they lie a lot. If we are kind, nice, open, friendly, diplomatic - we will get exploited. Toxic people sniff out our desire not to make mistake and that we do not hurt anyone - and they manipulate our desires to be good.
Intrusive thoughts try to warn us about this. Intrusive thoughts wants us to learn about toxic people. Learn how they think, and how can we recognize them, pick red flags. And most importantly: how to retort to them in healthy, functional and proper manner - without wars, without drama, without explosions.
Once I know this - I can see that this information is really hard to find. This is because we live in sick, narcissistic society. Most people are sick in their heads, meaning they want to harm others and cause damage just for the sake of it, they enjoy causing drama and suffering.
We need to find functional way how to retort to them. Assertiveness is being told as a way to deal with difficult people but that is hoax, a marketing ploy. Assertiveness does not explain how to deal with people who love to argue and never solve anything.
I see that this ability to learn how to retort to toxic people, how to remove them cut contact whenever possible - will help us to sooth our intrusive thoughts.
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"it comes to feeling unnatural amounts anxiety around social groups." Make scientific evaluation of people around you. Are they toxic? Are they dangerous? Can they harm you? In what way? What is the potential of damage these people can do to you?
Are they critical? Do they nitpick your mistakes? Are they intrusive? Can you make evaluation of people around you to determine if they are hostile and antagonistic?
Are you toxic yourself? Are you argumentative? Do you talk to them? Are you complaining all the time? If you shut up - why?
What is the worst that people around you can do to you? What would be painful to experience from them?
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Social anxiety overlaps with many conditions. You might be highly intelligent - and therefore you will pick up many cues that are irritating - since they are not intelligent solutions. So there is nothing ill about your reaction to something that is dumb. You might be highly sensitive person - then you will feel anxiety when something is too much. Again, nothing ill here. You might be paranoid - and you might be convinced that people will try to hurt you - so you can test this out by making assessment - what bugs you with people. You might be having hormone/chemical disbalance - that comes to surface as irritation to other people. You might have trauma, CPTSD where you were traumatized by critical, self involved people - and now as adult you get triggered by similar abusive people and pick them up on your radar quickly - where other people see nothing. You might have some shocking even non related to other people, but brain tries to keep us safe - thus is can resurface as social anxiety. In psychology it is noted that any external or internal chaotic even can cause withdrawal and isolation as first symptom.
So yeah - I would start with people around us. See if they are critical. Do they nitpick, are they intrusive. Do they lack empathy? Are they antagonistic? Do they like drama and conflict? Do they know how to handle their dysregulation or they throw temper tantrums. They might have all conditions above but they choose to deal with them by fight response - by being rude to you.
So be scientist and Sherlock Holmes, seek for facts, evidence and clues - are people toxic to you? Or is it all in your imagination?
IF people are really rude - do you know skills how to retort to them in healthy, proper, functional manner without isolation, explosions, drama? ---
"healthy response to I messed up. " I would focus on this, too. What if we did not messed up at all? But in fact we were being told by toxic, manipulative people that we done something wrong. Our urge to be good can be used against us. Our need to not make mistakes in order not to hurt someone - might be used against us. Someone can claim that we hurt them and we will never inspect it - we will automatically think I messed up. This is sinister - because then we try to solve the problem by making us crap fit and by self-pathologizing - pinpointing at healthy, normal, neutral parts of ourselves as illness and something to reject. This dynamic happens with social anxiety and complex trauma. We end up neurotic and stuck with double binding and with mental illness: intrusive thoughts, avoidance issues, phobias, perfectionism - spinning the wheel of not making mistakes.
These mind games of shaming and blaming happen more often than our brain might recognize or feel comfortable with. I would also pay attention whenever I feel shame and guilt to seek if there is someone Machiavellian behind it orchestrating the blame game for their own hidden agenda or sadistic pleasure to cause pain to their targets.
Truth is that any action will end up with mistakes, flaws and ignorance. This makes us prone to hurt someone. This attracts parasites, narcissists, emotional vampires to sit beside and seek when someone will make a mistake - and then pontificate over it. I would like that we recognize this dark psychology and toxic people.
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(16.6.2022)
" but i do not let it show" When we let our anxiety dictate our actions - we create disorder. This can easily turn into imbalance. Anxiety is uncertainty, kind a like infinity in mathematics. If you divide something by zero calculator will tell you Cannot divide by zero, there will be no result. When we rely on our anxiety to come up with strategies, and mechanisms - we are being guided by infinity - impossible choices, that may probably never become materialized - so it is basically delusion, a hallucination. This can become very unhealthy if we do it as habit.
The healthy thing is that we base our thoughts, actions on reality - what we conclude is the most real, fact and objective based.
The world if full of toxic, manipulative and uncaring people - that is true. But we cannot treat everyone as criminal - since there are good people out there. Most of them are delusional, too - and if you actually talk to them - they will see that you are not dangerous - and they might trust you and change their own toxic defenses.
It would be a good idea to test people - and that we gather all data and learn about toxic people how to pick red flags for psychopaths - and perhaps not give in to early to their demands. It is a skill to learn how to have functional healthy way how to relate with people - that we do not become codependent on them and in the same time that we are not too much isolated.
With social anxiety we never learned that - we never had positive model to see how this works. Most of us were traumatized: we were invalidated and we were exposed to hysteria as model. Lack of love.
And people like Jordan Peterson who tell us now as adults that we must become monster and show teeth - is also unhealthy guidance how to deal with people.
We need to learn how to handle people with love and reject them and warn them when they are objectively scary. With social anxiety we shut up and we let our anxiety to guide us. Anxiety is smoke detector - if smoke detector is on - you respect it's capability to let you know that there is smoke. You do not run around in panic. You detect first if the smoke is coming from a cigarette - or if there is a fire. Smoke detector will not discern this. IT is up to you to see reality, seek evidence and check out the danger.
If we equate smoke detector alarm with catastrophic fire every time it goes off - we will become very panicky and anxious people.
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Social anxiety is part of trauma. You are not born socially anxious. You become afraid of people due to invalidation and toxic people around you, you get traumatized. You are not people pleaser because you are nice person - you are people pleaser because you are afraid of punishment - due to trauma.
"There is social phobia (fear of being judge in a public setting) and social anxiety (fear of one on one or group settings)" Nope. Social phobia is archaic label for social anxiety. Social phobia label was used in early 1990s - and with time experts figure it out that social phobia does not wear of with exposure. Phobias are cured with repeated exposure and desensitization. Social phobia does not go away - so they renamed it into social anxiety be the end of 1990s- I witness this change from phobia to anxiety - I followed it and read about it when it was changed. Social phobia is still used today - you can check it out at wikipedia.
Social anxiety is fear of being judged. It is fear of being criticized. It does not matter if the judging comes from 1 person in the group or if many people are criticizing you. The anxiety is the same. If the social anxiety is extreme it turns into avoidance, AvPD.
You think it is different condition if you are judged by a group of people and one person? That is is different treatment if you are afraid of being judged by group of people from only 1 person? It is all social anxiety. And it stems from trauma You are not born with caring about what other people think about you in negative way. This comes with conditioning and criticism and hysteria and lack of love, narcissistic abuse is behind it, someone who is egocentric and lacks empathy to know how their behaviour affects other people, especially young ones who are developing their persona.
Quote from the book about Complex trauma: "“As a traumatized child, your over-aroused sympathetic nervous system also drives you to become increasingly hypervigilant. Hypervigilance is a fixation on looking for danger that comes from excessive exposure to real danger. In an effort to recognize, predict and avoid danger, hypervigilance is ingrained in your approach to being in the world. Hypervigilance narrows your attention into an incessant, on-guard scanning of the people around you. It also frequently projects you into the future, imagining danger in upcoming social events. Moreover, hypervigilance typically devolves into intense performance anxiety on every level of self-expression” ― Pete Walker, Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving"
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"Nobody cares about how i feel so what is the point in telling strangers?" I would still tell. When we have social anxiety, we are trapped in codependency. We put other people to be superior, while we are convinced that we are inferior. This is called External reference locus of control. So with external referencing - We are never on par.
So - be on par. This means - you tell them not because of them. It is not about other people. Yeah, they do not care. But you are the one who cares and it bugs you. So do it for you. Accept yourself and take care of yourself. That is called intrinsic locus of control - and we are not taught about that , nobody speaks about that concept. IT is self worth.
"I learned to get over it" The only thing we need to learn is to learn how to make functional, proper, healthy relationships with people. If your solution is that you are seeing yourself as worthless, that is not healthy. That is toxic shame - it is not functional, it is like crooked tree - we got to straighten it up so it can withstand wind blows and it can grow tall and spread around. If you make yourself small because you are convinced that your condition is bothering other people - you will trauma bond with other people and you will be trapped inside Karpman Drama Triangle, it is codependency, and that is social anxiety.
The point of healthy mind is that we trust ourselves and that we come up with healthy, functional, proper solutions to any problems and issues we encounter in life.
Self-invalidation is not functional nor healthy.
With social anxiety we will stay stuck with improper and unhealthy ways how we deal and manage relationships. We don't even let ourselves to experiment nor to repeat things that we know are healthy and good. We do not educate ourselves about toxic people - since we are convinced that we are unacceptable due to toxic shame.
Self worth is something we never learned when we were growing up. Self love is unknown and mysterious concept and when we do not have intrinsic locus of control we have trauma bonding instead - we seek approval from others. Without self worth we are cripples, we will be immobile and pessimist. Maxwell Maltz said that life without self esteem is like driving with your hand break on. He is author of Psycho-Cybernetics (1960), book, he talks about modulating our faulty parts and changing them and replacing them with healthy, functional, proper parts.
With social anxiety we give up and we put guidance in other people, we let them control our emotions and our actions, they lead our lives. This is due to trauma - we were not taught to stand on our two feet when we were growing up. We never received normal, healthy lessons - instead we were criticized and exposed to adult hysteria all the time, we were not shown what love is in the time when we were suppose to receive it to grow in healthy way. We were malnourished.
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You are confusing "nice" with codependency.
Codependency is part of trauma - being exposed to narcissistic abuse, someone who is manipulative. So you become nice to avoid punishment and someone who is nitpicking your mistakes, flaws and ignorance. Someone who is gaslighting you. Motive to be nice is to avoid irrational guilt that toxic person imposes on you. With repetition it turns into not being able to say no.
Assertiveness is hoax, it is marketing ploy. Assertiveness does not work with narcissistic people. The best example is Johhny Depp. If he choose to deal his codependency issue with "assertiveness" he would stay in relationship with Amber - and now he would be labeled as abuser by everyone, his career would be over and he would lose all money.
Assertiveness is hoax because it sells warm water. Behind assertiveness is being yourself. Being honest, being authentic. For example, have comfortable posture - if you are around person who is Amber - and you do not recognize her as toxic, your posture will be normal to be crouched. It is signal that you are in contact with someone toxic - and healthy thing to do it so recognize it, and start to document abuse - to check what is going on. If you decide to ignore it and that you put on narcissistic mask of being strong - you will be manipulated by toxic person who has hidden agenda that you cannot see.
Being confident is paradox. If you over compensate and put fake mask - you will build fake persona, someone who is not sincere and you will become anxious when someone says that you are not honest. When you accept that you are not confident - you will become confident - since there will be nothing to hide or be ashamed about.
"Give opinion" Think about it more deeply. If you are in contact with toxic abusive narcissistic people - they want information from you - that will be used against you later on. Also, sick narcissistic people like drama, they want you to be inside Karpman Drama Triangle - where you are forced to be in conflict with them by "giving your opinion" all the time - but it is spinning wheel of abuse - and these people do not want solution, they only want you to get angry and annoyed. So giving opinion turns into manipulation and making a fool out of you. The best example are trolls - that start antagonism and you are hooked in giving your opinion.
We live in sick, narcissistic, deceptive world full of lies. Machiavellians will prey on our needs and our mistakes and our ignorance how to deal with issues in life.
So assertiveness is simply a marketing ploy that is twisting facts and it is psychologically very unhealthy - since it is using self-pathologizing methods - and we end up confused, without true information and without guidance what to do - we only know that we are abnormal for being nice and that we have to enter into conflict to prove other person we are worthy - aka being hooked in borderline mentality.
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@The Manipulator The purpose of social anxiety is that we learn how to handle strange, unexpecting and shameful events in our lives. Similar to yours. With social anxiety we think we are inept to come up with our own solutions, we are stuck. This happens due to trauma and shame. Toxic shame (deep sense of being wrong and guilty) inside us make us seek approval and validation from other people. And we are stuck in rumination and fear what will other people think about us and criticize us.
So if we know that social anxiety is inability to trust ourselves, that we seek approval from other people, and that we have deep sense of being wrong and that it all stems with being in toxic environment where are are invalidated - this means that we need to educate ourselves about toxic people - how to handle them.
So you got to become your own advice giver. That you are able to solve problems, test and experiment what might work best - even at the cost of being wrong.
If I were in your place. I would check and test my fears and shame. What I have done wrong? Did I commit crime? What was beating based on? Did I said something cruel? Did I caused someone pain? Is there something I can do to repay my wrongdoings? Can I decide not to do wrong things in the future? If I really done something wrong - than the anxiety is totally natural and normal. I should feel guilty and ashamed. Guilt is emotion that tell us that we ought to be good and nice.
If there were no wrongdoings, if I really did not do anything wrong - then the fears I feel are imposed on me by toxic shame. These fears are called PureOCD - intrusive worries. There is Mark Freeman yt channel about intrusive worries, and there is plenty of advice how to handle intrusive thoughts.
One advice is that we do what we feel shameful on the purpose. In your case, if you really did not do anything wrong and beating was unfair, unjust and it was not your fault - this means do the thing that your intrusive worries try to tell you to avoid - as I understand that is " walk near my place". You do it - walk. If you really did not do anything wrong - there is absolutely nothing to be ashamed about.
You might worry about comments from people. This is what I mean when I said that with social anxiety we miss information how to retort to intrusive people. How to handle criticism and difficult people - for example people who are intrusive and ask questions which are none of their business. This is something we need to learn. I started to write down how to retort to people who are criticizing you without basis, think about it as scene from Terminator when Arnold as robot gets choice of words on his screen to pick and to say to people: "You are being rude." "Stop it." "What did I do to upset you?" "I don't know" "Meh!" "I disagree with you." "I agree partly with you." "You are being paranoid." "It's your stuff, not mine." "I don’t care." "Enough" "I will not you let me treat me this way " "No, what you are saying/doing is devaluation" "What do you want (from me)?"
I think you might use "I don't know" in your case? And walk away.
With social anxiety nobody taught us that we can tell people off. Instead we are taught to be ashamed of our mistakes, flaws, ignorance and that we equate our mistakes with our self worth - which leads to toxic shame and mental imbalance.
The point is that we are kind and nice people and to choose not hurting anyone and not doing toxic things - we will have nothing to be ashamed about.
This is why I dislike Jordan Peterson. His advice is to be monster, that you show teeth as reaction to anything in life. With that you will simply built more things to be ashamed about and feel guilt. When we have guilt inside us - we will be controlled by other people. And we will avoid going out and choose avoidance as a way to deal with our shame and guilt.
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This depends what is your definition of shy. If you define shy as being manipulative and back stabbing - yeah, you are right - nobody likes that.
But what is shy? Shy can be manipulative. Shy can also be respectful and caring for your feelings not to hurt you.
IF you are egocentric and if you are toxic - you will see only manipulation from shy people because of confirmation bias and the way you mirror world around you what you have inside you. So thinking shy is a bad thing says a lot about you than you are aware of and more than about shy people.
"If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives; Be kind anyway." Mother Theresa
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@Timexcape "Social anxiety is selfishness though." Social anxiety is part of trauma. You are scared to speak because you are afraid of criticism, you are afraid of punishment and bad treatment if you say something that the other person will react with temper tantrum. Social anxiety is part of codependency - where you try to appease and control other person by not saying anything radical or controversial. That is why socially anxious people shut up. It is not about keeping quiet and holding secrets - it is actually the opposite of selfishness - it is total introjection of other person - being people pleaser and pushover and fawning over them.
You are mixing narcissism with social anxiety - which is no wonder since narcissism is on the other spectrum of codependency and trauma. Narcissists are selfish and they are unable to have empathy, they have no idea nor they care how their behaviour affects the other person. Socially anxious people are highly aware of other people, they are zoomed onto other person, looking for facial expressions, tone of voice and how they react and talk to you - and you scan them to see any sign of disapproval or anger - and then you do everything to appease them to avoid their criticism.
Check out official DSM medical social anxiety characteristics: - Fear of situations in which you may be judged negatively. - Worry about embarrassing or humiliating yourself. - Intense fear of interacting or talking with strangers. - Fear that others will notice that you look anxious.
There is nothing selfish about it - the total focus is on other people and how they feel -and it is about avoiding people being angry and critical to you. That is social anxiety.
"people will just like you less, because you talk less." Who cares about what other people - is message that socially anxious people cannot receive. They care a lot what other people think about them, it hurts them if other person dislikes them. This is due to trauma bonding and external reference locus of control and toxic shame.
When we manage our social anxiety - we will not care about what other people like or dislike - since the locus of control will be inside, where it belongs, our self worth and intrinsic locus of control.
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"There is social phobias like public speaking (which people can get over, I see it everyday)" That is called performance anxiety and it is not connected neither to social phobia nor social anxiety - as you divide them unnecessarily.
"The difference between social phobia and social anxiety disorder (SAD) is largely chronological, in that social phobia is the former term and SAD is the current term for the disorder. " (verywellmind)
Now about trauma - Social anxiety characteristics are: - Fear of situations in which you may be judged negatively. - Worry about embarrassing or humiliating yourself. - Intense fear of interacting or talking with strangers. - Fear that others will notice that you look anxious.
This fear had to start somewhere. IT did not fall out of thin air. Abuse does not mean someone shaking you violently.
Abuse means invalidation. Abuse is being criticized relentleslly when your persona was forming, 24/7, and being exposed to adult hysteria when child brain was unable to process it in any other way than developing safety mechanisms. Abuse is not being accepted and trying to fit in to someone's definitions of what is acceptable. Abuse is being criticized and nagged and complained about - which Glasser sorted as dysfunctional methods of communication. Criticizing a child leads to toxic shame. Long term exposure to narcissistic abuse cause brain injury - google it. Double binding message can cause shizofrenia.
So yeah, if you have fears as adults from people - it is being injected into you through trauma. Social anxiety is wound, an injury from unfair and traumatic experience.
If you have fears from people who are safe, and if you react to safe people with fear - than this is SAD, it is paranoid delusional disorder - since you are unable to see reality. That is different from feeling fear when someone is criticizing you or nagging or complaining or acting in any way that is similar to the original abuse.
Social anxiety is part of Complex Trauma. CPTSD explains all mysterious signs and symptoms that CBT cannot explain. Triggers, Polyvagal theory, dysregulation, toxic shame - and CPTSD offers validation and acceptance and regulation as a way to heal social anxiety - and it works.
Trauma model was invented in 2002 as explanation to all conditions which are comorbid - and social anxiety is comorbid to any psychological issue and imbalance. When there is some psychological disorder, the first symptom is withdrawal and isolation and inability to handle social life.
Jung worked in mental institution and he discovered that our fears, phobias - all stem from trauma and it is a way our unconsciousness tries to communicate to us that we find effective ways how to be safe and how to respond to danger in proper manner.
I am not trying to change your mind. Believe in whatever you want - it is only fair to tell all information to people - so that they are not trapped with ineffective treatments, dead ends, and lies and deception about their emotions.
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"negative judgement is absent " Yep. Focus on this sentence. Would normal, healthy person judge your mistakes, flaws and ignorance - if you are not actively evil against others?
They would not. Healthy, friendly, nice, kind person would love you and accept you as long as you are nice, healthy, friendly and nice person to others.
Toxic people demand perfectionism. Toxic people have hidden agenda. Toxic people expect admiration and praise and that they are at the center of attention and that their needs are met. They feel entitled to everything, while you are servant to them, background character to use and discard.
I believe with social anxiety we are codependent and we are attracting toxic people in our lives - so we are unable to discern toxic people due to trauma from our past (growing up in critical environment full of hate and invalidation). Now as adult we lump all people together - and we think we are not allowed to cut contact with toxic people since we have codependency issues.
We find "good" people as boring and we are wired to be abused, so we expect drama and we think it is only matter of time when they will start to negatively judge us, as you beautifully put it. They won't. Good, nice healthy people exist, and no - they will not negatively judge us. That is what toxic people do and we have to cut contact with them or minimize if we are unable to cut contact immediately.
IF we have social anxiety it is high chance that most connections we made are with toxic people - they are like parasites and they love nice people pleasers who will never tell them no or be honest with them due to trauma and fears and conditioning.
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(17.6.2022)
"I still don't know how to improve. " The urge to improve is coming from anxiety. When you react to anxiety in form of an action - you will create intrusive thoughts and it start to be a loop if intrusive thoughts, more and more. Fears spread quickly - once you are afraid of something, pretty soon you will be afraid of something else. So behind this urge to improve is perfectionism. Behind perfectionism (urge to be perfect) is toxic shame (deep ingrained belief that we are inept and unacceptable). And toxic shame will make us improve and solve the unsolvable, and that we are liked and accepted by other people. This all stems from trauma. We were exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when growing up - we grew up without love and without positive and healthy role models. Now we are stuck in chasing ideal model how to improve and not to be vulnerable, which is toxic shame - inability to be make mistakes and to be vulnerable and it is inability to admit mistakes and it is inability to to love and accept ourselves since we were programmed through complex trauma experience to reject ourselves and please hysterical people. We were never allowed to express ourselves, we were never allowed to dislike something - instead we were taught to take care of untreated mentally ill people with narcissistic personalities.
I see Humanistic psychology as direction that deals with trauma and toxic shame. We need to learn to accept ourselves, that we love ourselves, that we validate ourselves - everything that is opposite to trauma that we experienced while growing up in toxic environment. With toxic shame we do not have self worth. Instead we build a mask of what we believe is valuable: that we must be perfect, that we must improve. That does not work - since we are humans. We cannot be gods. We will make mistakes, we will be limited, since our brains are limited - we cannot know everything. And any action can be interpreted as mistake. So chasing life without mistakes is futile attempt and waste of energy and money and time, and it is not healthy.
Carl Rogers said: “The curious paradox is that when I accept myself, just as I am, then I can change.”
Look who or what is behind your urge to improve. Are there toxic people around you who complain and nag all the time about you? Nitpick on your mistakes every day? That is not healthy environment, and if you cannot cut contact with them, you need to learn to retort to their manic behaviour. Long term exposure to narcissistic abuse causes brain damage. It can be visible via brain scan. So being exposed to people who demand unreasonable things from you can damage your brain. We need to educate ourselves how to deal and manage toxic narcissistic people in healthy, functional manner, without isolation or explosions, without denial or repression, without wars and drama.
"The thoughts rarely stop." Yeah, that is PureOCD. It is intrusive thoughts that stuck at us like a leech and we cannot shake them off. I see these thoughts as anxiety. And when we react to calm this anxiety - we will create more anxiety. If we ignore it, they will not go away - since they want to tell us something. It is inner critic that nags and complains all the time inside our head. It is trauma internalized inside us, toxic shame. Anxiety wants us to feel safe, that we feel psychological safety. If we did not experience trauma and toxic people when growing up, we would build self worth inside us, That is strong connection with our needs and it is ability to know what we like or dislike and our locus of control is that we follow our inner GPS.
When due to trauma we do not develop self worth, brain will not have GPS, it will not have guidance - what to do in life, how to react to events and people in live, brain will not know what to like or dislike, what to accept and what to reject. So what happens with trauma - is that we develop toxic shame - we learn to re-traumatize ourselves: we invalidate ourselves and we demand perfection from ourselves, that we improve constantly - as we were taught by toxic people around us. Also without self worth we develop external reference locus of control. This means that we see other people as gods and superior. Toxic shame tell us that we are inept and unworthy and unacceptable - so logical conclusion is that other people are superior and that they have worth - so other people become our GPS and we seek approval and validation from other people. And guess what kind of people we will attract with such mentality? Toxic people will sniff out our need to seek recognition and acknowledgment - and toxic, narcissistic people are perfect match - since they require attention and slaves who fuel their own self worth. We will become codependent- stuck with intrusive thoughts to improve and we will be surrounded with toxic people who will parasite over our trauma and toxic shame inside us.
The only solution is self -love, that we develop self worth. Self worth is our immunity, it is shield against parasites, it is our anti-virus protection. With self acceptance you will be fine with your mistakes and you will not base your emotions neither on someone's like nor their dislike. And they will not be the cause of your decision to improve anything. You will improve only if that makes you happy and when you know this is something that you want for yourself, not as something to prove to others or seek their approval.
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"I wonder if someone can get cancer from being stressed 24/7 for years? " Trauma affects our immunity system. When I started to avoid people with 13 yo, I developed allergy hay fever very soon, with 16yo, in 1993. When I learned about PureOCD techniques (about acceptance) in 2015 it was the first time that hay fever started to subside.
Our self worth is our immunity and our strength. When we love ourselves - we will cut toxic habits and we will cut toxic people. We will start to take care of our well being and we will learn to regulate. Then you will improve - since your drive will be inside, your locus of control will be based on intrinsic values, not external ones.
"Society attacks early when the individual is helpless." "Some of us learn control more or less by accident. The rest of us go all our lives not even understanding how it is possible, and blaming our failure on being born the wrong way." BF Skinner
Video games, alcohol, smoking, avoidance, isolation, toxic shame - these are all defense mechanisms described by Freud and his daughter. Denial, repression. We react to stress by 4F: Fight - Freeze - Flight - Fawn. Addictions are form of flight response. These are immature ego defense mechanisms - and it is sign that there was trauma, we were traumatized. And this trauma needs to be addressed. When trauma happens when we are growing up - we get stuck in arrested development. We never complete Piaget developmental stages - we get stuck in a hole with our defense mechanisms and that is how we learned to deal and manage life - in dysfunctional manner, that does not work in real life, with real life problems and difficulties.
We end up with shame and guilt - and toxic people exploit irrational guilt in easy targets: people who were traumatized and programmed to fawn to hysterical people. We end up with social anxiety.
Social anxiety tries to tell us that we start to love ourselves, that we finish developmental stages where we got stuck. We see people who do not have social anxiety - these people have completed their developmental stages. We did not, we were stuck due to trauma and toxic people who abused us and invalidated us. We grew up without knowing what self-acceptance means, we grew up without self worth.
To finish developmental stage we need to take manual over-ride. When people grew up in healthy environment they naturally and instinctually learn to trust themselves and take care of themselves. With hysteria and constant complaining - we do not learn this. So now we have to pick ourselves up and give ourselves love that we need to grow.
Self worth is not self esteem. Self esteem is when you do something good and you feel good for a while, then it wears off. Self worth is intrinsic locus of control, that you are not effected by externals: people or events. You base your love and safety on yourself and empathy and - that you are good and nice person inside. That you do not cause harm to others, that you do not have ill wish to others, that you do not feel pleasure in hurting other people, and that you have no hidden agenda against other people.
This part is confusing to people with trauma, because we were learned to equate our actions with our worth - and thus we end up with toxic shame. This happens because and action can be defined as mistake, anyone can find something wrong with any action. So toxic people nitpick on these and they seek easy targets: people who are feeling bad when we make mistake. So we end up with social anxiety: we become immobile to take any action since we equate mistakes with our self acceptance. We put conditions on ourselves - that we will feel good only after we did everything perfectly. Which can never happen - since mistakes are natural part of life, we learn through mistakes and mistakes are not part of your identity, mistakes are not your persona. With trauma - we get those fused into one entity. And that keeps us stuck in need to prove ourselves to others and that we are not allowed to make mistakes.
So solution to this complex toxic habit and trauma is self acceptance.
" Humanistic therapies" "This group of therapies encourages an individual to resolve their problems and issues and achieve greater fulfillment by recognizing, understanding, and using their own capacity to develop. Humanists believe that not only is a person capable of making changes and achieving personal growth but it is their responsibility to do so. This idea places the individual fully in control of their choices and goals."
The point of psychology is that we become our caretaker. That we look after ourselves and that we know how to resolve problems in healthy manner. That we become our own advice giver - with knowing that we will make mistakes and that we are fine with mistakes. We can do this when we love ourselves and when we accept ourselves.
With toxic shame we grew up in mentality similar to communism or fascism. We learned that we are machines - that our actions are equal to our worth and that we must never doubt anyone who is ordering us around. We also must never doubt when we feel inner critic. So ability to allow ourselves to doubt others and to doubt our own thoughts will free us to think - we will free our mind. Trauma and toxic shame are keeping us in prison, prison of our own mind. We are not allow to transgress to any imposed belief. So with trauma and toxic people and toxic shame - many of our definitions are faulty - and they need to be challenged, to be doubted. With social anxiety we are stuck in guilt and shame - and we never doubt it. We never allow ourselves to doubt it. This will attract toxic people - who will control us easily - they will criticize, they will yell and scream - and this will trigger our trauma and we will be hypnotized and fawn to them. The healthy part of our brain will notice that we are being exploited - and we will develop social anxiety - which is basically alarm system going off - that we lack self worth and ability to defend ourselves in healthy manner. With trauma and toxic programming we learned to deal with danger in dysfunctional manner: through defense mechanisms, immature ego defense mechanisms.
So it is about waking up. Realizing that our worth, goals, decisions, definitions, opinions were based on trauma and toxic people.
Paul Watzlawick said: "The belief that one's own view of reality is the only reality is the most dangerous of all delusions"
Social anxiety that we feel is signal that what we believe is self worth is mask, it is hallucination: toxic shame. Toxic shame is guiding us, instead of self worth. You may look at toxic shame as devil on the shoulder. It keeps you in deceit. It will tell you that you ignore toxic people, that you must be strong, that you must improve, that you have to be toxic macho, that you have to soothe yourself by wasting your time on fantasy and addictions. It will berate you that you must improve so that you can impress other people and get their approval and recognition. And we never doubt this toxic shame. So it is like a veil over our eyes - it distorts our reality, it messes up our plans, decisions, explanations, keep us stuck with bias, quick oversimplifications, logical fallacies - and we never test them.
Self worth is the basis for healthy life - and no one explained this to us. We are stuck with toxic shame instead. Start to challenge it, start to recognize this toxic element inside you and replace it with self love and self acceptance. Educate yourself about toxic shame, toxic people, and humanistic psychology. Carl Rogers, Rollo May - check their quotes on google images.
Rollo May said: “It is an ironic habit of human beings to run faster when they have lost their way.” He is talking about what you said: that you want to improve and seek validation and approval by becoming "improved". Confidence is paradox. You will feel confident when you accept yourself as you are, with anything that you see as flaw and mistake. If you cover up confidence by trying to improve - you will destroy your confidence since you will try to over-compensate - and that does not work. You end up with building fantasy - which is crushed against brutal real life. There will always be some critic that will criticize anything you do, and anything about you. You cannot influence other people to stop being toxic. What you can do is change the way you see yourself - so that their criticism cannot hurt you anymore.
The point is that you start to trust yourself so that you can rely on yourself and that you educate yourself and that you base your decisions on health, and that you seek approval from yourself - not other people. Without toxic shame we will no longer hide our vulnerabilities and we will accept our mistakes. We will take care of ourselves and we will cut toxic people whenever we can, we will recognize red flags and cut them off and reject them in the beginning. You will notice that people will start to treat you differently - because toxic people will not take advantage of you anymore.
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This is at the core of disorder. Many people lack education about codependency and they do not realize that seeking approval and guidance is part of trauma issue and toxic shame.
In this way I was confronted just as some comments here - when I tried to explain this on reddit main social anxiety forum. People do not understand that we can care for people and still reject them in the same time. This part is garbled up with codependents. They are convinced that the only way to show love and empathy is to serve toxic people. And they are convinced if you cut contact with toxic people and if you label toxic people as toxic - they think this is not love nor empathy.
This information is crucial for healing. Toxic people and toxic shame keeps us trapped in what we define as empathy - by enabling their abuse and fawning to them.
Reality is that we can care for people and reject any contact with them. Reality is that we can love people and decide to retort to them if we are unable to cut contact with them. Reality is that empathy and love is equal to being honest and authentic and to voice out the elephant in the room.
The information that we miss in sick deceptive society is that being honest can be mixed with care and being nice. It can go along hand in hand. We can speak the truth without explosions, we can warn toxic person about their transgressions without accusations, we can alarm toxic person what toxic actions they take without demands and without being cruel in the same time.
That is the message of this video - and people stuck in Karpman Drama Triangle lack information about their rights and alternative ways how to deal with difficult people. We can deal with someone toxic in healthy, functional and proper manner - without isolation, without fawning, without drama, without wars, without explosions.
Empaths stuck in codependency are hypnotized to equate their flaws with persona. They also equate flaws of other people with their persona - and then they feel toxic shame - and then toxic shame produce explanations and rationalizations that you must be good person by never speaking about evil of other people. That definition of good person is that you are chirpy and positive all the time and that you never speak about someone abusive. You think that being good means covering up someone's abuse. And there is no realization that this means enabling, it is toxic definition based on toxic shame (that we are inept and we cannot trust our feelings - yet we must rely on other people to guide us and that we need to listen to other people to explain our reality to us). With this mindset and beliefs we will attract toxic people like moth to a flame.
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"You can still be a ‘true empath’ and be dysfunctional and lack boundaries" I disagree with this statement, It is misleading and deceptive. When you have dysfunction and lack boundaries - you are no longer true empath. Toxic people steal your soul. IT is no longer in your core being, instead there is toxic shame inside. Toxic shame make us believe in one reality - and we never allow Descartes doubting to occur. We get stuck and stick to toxic people. If we define our inability to voice out someone's evil actions and words as empathy - we will create mental imbalance. It will keep us stuck in psychological belief that we have self worth inside us, and that this worth is empathy.
It is not. If you are unable to voice out dislike and abuse and evil coming from other people, and if you are unable to voice out evil from withing (toxic shame) - you are no longer empath. Your soul is hijacked. Your empathy is hijacked. Your sanity is hijacked. You are no longer working from your true self - you are running your life being controlled and being slave to toxic people. And what keeps many people stuck in matrix of slavery and codependency is belief that they have empathy. Nope - empathy is being hijacked, too. Our mind is hijacked. IF we think that we have sane mind when in codependent relationship - this belief will keep us stuck inside Karpman Drama Triangle and we will never opt out of it.
So this video is totally on the target. The only way we can snap out of hypnosis and coma and hijacking is to realize that we lack empathy. We lack empathy towards ourselves. We are not true empath to us. We are disregarding ourselves and there is no empathy to ourselves. Like psychopaths without empathy for other people - we have no empathy for ourselves. We allow toxic people because we are convinced that we have self worth and we explain and define this self worth as "empathy" and the way this "empathy" works is by shutting up about the abuse and evil actions that evil people take. That is not empathy. That is enabling. That is codependency. It is illusion of empathy. It is our hallucination of empathy that we make ourselves to believe.
So yeah - I would be radical and shocking about it. With codependency - we do not have empathy. We have delusions and lies and deception - we have false definitions about what is empathy.
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" a non-empath/non-codependent person is a sociopath?" Nope. He says non-empaths and non-codependent is hijacked easily by sociopaths. Manipulative people will hijack such people easily. They will simply trigger their needs and they will control them.
With empathy we have ability to put ourselves in other people shoes, and if person has hidden evil agenda - we will sniff it out. It will come out as anxiety, fears - we will feel their toxicity.
People without empathy do not have this mechanism, they cannot detect fake and dangerous people.
The trick is that we trust ourselves when we feel anxiety. CBT (and self help books and assertive training marketing) will try to explain us that we are delusional. Toxic people will explain to us that we are over-sensitive and they will gaslight us into neuroticism - so that we doubt our abilities to sniff out manipulative hidden agenda people.
This is very complex topic , and it is at the root of all mental imbalances. You cannot explain whole psychology in short video. Check out Kenny's other videos as well - before judging him and jumping to quick conclusions and oversimplifications and bias.
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We are imposed with guilt - we are being labeled as pushovers and people pleasers - when we truly want to help other people without urge to avoid punishment behind it.
To make it complex - borderliners come along and they mock our ability to care for others. They do not explain that taking care of others is normal and healthy - and they do not explain that narcissists are problem. Instead they use empathy to make us guilty ones. And we do not realize we are dealing with someone toxic since borderliners use empathy as tool to control other people. When we feel guilt, imposed irrational guilt - we become slaves to people who trigger our guilt. So borderliners are also parasites here - and we need to realize that taking care for other people will attract a lot of parasites - and we need to become aware, learn how to recognize and cut contact and retort narcissists and borderliners for our mental health.
And to make it even more complex - many people are labeled and diagnosed as borderliners. While in fact they are traumatized by toxic people. Borderliners are people who use manipulation and they have hidden agenda to hurt other people. If you are diagnosed as borderline but you do not hurt other people - you are being misdiagnosed. This codependency is terra incognita to professional medical community - so they misdiagnose a lot of people and this causes a lot of confusion.
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This is complex. What if the other person is borderline - and they trigger our annoyances. Then standing up for ourselves will keep us stuck in Karpman Drama Triangle - where we are defending ourselves without realizing that we are being controlled by sick people who feel pleasure and validated when there are drama and explosions. We could witness this with Johnny Depp and Amber.
So assertiveness is marketing ploy. It is hoax. If you are kind and nice person - you are not aggressive. If you are honest and authentic, if you express your opinion without fear of punishment - that is healthy. There is nothing special about this, it is wrong to label this as assertive. The problem are not ourselves. IT is toxic people - who have hidden agenda and who are manipulative.
So instead of "standing up for ourselves" I would rather focus on toxic people. How to recognize them and their mind games and their gaslighting and manipulation. How to retort to these people in healthy manner, without isolation, without avoidance, without freezing, without explosions, without wars, without drama.
So I would move away from self-pathologizing ourselves as if there is something wrong with us and that we need to spend money and time and energy about "improving" our skills - and instead I would focus on the one and only and true cause of all disorder: toxic people who base their life on hatred, lack of love and destruction of other people's lives thought manipulation and mind games - trying to catch us up in drama of endless explaining and proving to them.
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Unlike social anxiety, driving anxiety is real phobia and unlike social anxiety, the driving phobia can be cured/healed by exposure and repeated exposure. So good for you! Excellent job! My driving phobia is mixed with social anxiety - so my fear is potential road rage situations and being stuck - where you cannot move - or situations where you cannot resolve it - for example parallel parking. I got my driving license in 1995 but I started to drive often in 2014! I started by driving to shopping - so it was connected to goal that I like - which helped me to force myself to expose.
I also find helpful to decide to be calm before the driving itself, so I do not join later on into hysteria of bad drivers (aggressive & fast speed driving). As I see on google maps, roads in America are wider (10 meters) than in poor East European countries (5 meters) - so there are advantages in USA which people living there are not aware of at all. My driving anxiety has lessened when I realized that road structure, road laws and road system is build to make driving easier and safer - the whole road system is designed to lessen our driving phobia. That works in healthy and wealthy countries better than in poor corrupt countries such as Eastern Europe.
Your anxiety would probably be worse if you live in country with bad narrow roads without vertical and horizontal signal and where there is no police to sanction and remove law breakers from roads. So appreciating USA for having better roads and healthy system that keeps roads safer might help to build your self confidence in driving?
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I can't make my psychobabble very short because: "There's simply no polite way to tell people they've dedicate their live to an illusion" Daniel Dennett
If you feel comfort in being victim and manipulating other people with victim mentality - it is your life, your choice. I would love that borderliners like you are frank and honest in real life, so I could cut you, your narcissism, and your toxicity off immediately.
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"why should i expect someone to agree with me?" Problem starts when the other person is toxic - and they criticize our mistakes (real or imagined or injected), our flaws (internal or out of our control) and our ignorance (which may be due to lack of skills and the fact that human beings are not gods and thus they cannot be perfect). So the problem here is toxic person on the other side. I would not dismiss this information easily as nonsense or as something non relevant.
I would accept errors as important stream of data - something to learn about truth and why errors do not work.
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As usual from CBT, there are too many generalizations and there is not much clarity.
"to run or fight" There is also fawn response. Chasing dog can make us feel anxiety, but also if we get fired when we stand up for ourselves can also cause anxiety. Totally different situations, totally different source of anxiety.
"If you avoid situations" Why there is no mention that we avoid toxic people who are aggressive and manipulative? Would be normal for Johnny Depp if he pathologized his anxiety and stayed with Amber in abusive situation? He would be labelled now as abuser, without career and money.
"In social anxiety disorder people worry a lot about what other think of them" This statement is false and misleading. This is the cause why many people get misdiagnosed and being treated with wrong therapy. Social anxiety disorder is when you feel anxiety in safe environment. For example if you are in room with Oprah or Mandela, or Mother Theresa or Gandhi - the safest people on Earth and you feel that these people may hurt you: that is social anxiety disorder. 1% of people have this Paranoid Delusional disorder. When you make dangerous generalization that social anxiety disorder is worrying about other people - you are misdiagnosing a bunch of people who are stuck with toxic people such as Amber and they feel anxiety for being gaslighted, abused and manipulated, In this way, social anxiety is hoax and CBT is wrong and detrimental therapy.
People who are in abusive situations will google their social fears - and google will lead them to wrong and misleading information from official resources. In this way psychiatry is making patient worse and they create disorder in people where there is none.
"Going to grocery story can be stressful" If the clerk in store is yelling and screaming - it is stressful because the person is toxic. Check out The Simpsons in Russia - animated clip where Russian Marge is being yelled at by clerk and they engage in verbal fight. That is not normal. Person who is screaming and yelling at you is abnormal and your anxiety that you feel in response is normal reaction to abnormal person, abnormal situation, abnormal events. So CBT is lumping safe and unsafe people and events in one entity - the same way as anxiety lumps safe and unsafe in one big danger. That is why CBT is detrimental and unhelpful therapy. CBT cannot make distinction between toxic people and ongoing abuse. Instead it labels toxic people and abuse as your hallucination.
"worries about how peers would judge your appearance" What happens when peers do judge your appearance? What is called then when you feel uncomfortable when someone is really rude and aggressive? Should we not feel ashamed when someone is dangerous? Would that be healthy? That we stifle our emotions down and pretend we are not abused and bullied?
"that is developmental period when people place emphasis on social interaction" Incorrect and misleading information. It is Piaget developmental stage - and our persona is being built. So when we are bullied, when we experience trauma - we learn to shut up and never develop our persona: what we dislike. Instead we are traumatized to people please abusers and fawn to them. In other words we become codependents and socially anxious - because we are stuck at Piaget developmental stage with Imaginary audience and Personal fable. We stay stuck with believing others are observing us and that we are different than others. Funny how CBT obfuscate this part from our knowledge and instead it turns it in to self-pathology and toxic shaming - and essentially repeating the abuse that caused social anxiety in the first place: invalidation and self blame.
"Big part of their identity is social belonging" The bigger part is self worth that is gone - and instead we develop toxic shame - which sets us up for external reference locus of control - where we believe other people without ever doubting them that they may not speak the whole truth and that they are incompetent. Instead we develop toxic shame where we believe we are incompetent and we cannot trust our dislikes and we cannot express ourselves freely. Why CBT never mentions that part related to self worth and toxic shame dynamics?
"CBT teaches how to adapt their thinking and reactions" CBT is making you to fawn, people please and to be pushover - since it does not recognize toxic shame issue. CBT does not recognize that there is no self worth inside people with social anxiety. CBT does not recognize trauma. CBT does not recognize toxic people and manipulation and narcissistic abuse as cause and instigator of social anxiety. CBT ought to be banned and outlawed.
Humanistic psychology is better approach to social anxiety: that we build our self worth and that we become our own advice giver and that we choose best actions and decisions based on what is healthy, proper and functional. CBT enforces toxic shame and people pleasing - since CBT is band aid therapy - it was created for quick method to calm down paranoid delusions.
If there is abuse - social anxiety is not hallucination.
And let's divide what CBT lumps together: Shyness - it is fear of social situations but fears wear off quickly. Social anxiety - it is fear of toxic social situations, where past trauma make you worry before, during and after social event and rumination does not wear of due to dysregulation. Social anxiety is part of complex trauma. Social anxiety disorder - it is fantasy fear from safe situations and safe people. It is part of paranoid delusional disorder. Narcissistic disorder - these are people without empathy and they feel social anxiety when people voice out their evil and abuse.
Now all these - when you google symptoms - google and CBT will direct you to false information - that these are all social anxiety disorder - which in reality suffers 1% of population. The treatment for each group is totally different - but CBT decided to lump it all together and treat it as delusion. This creates a lot of suffering and unhealthy unhelpful thinking in people suffering from abuse of toxic people around them.
Let me put it like this: What CBT offers to say to people how to handle toxic people? How CBT explains the effect of narcissistic abuse on brain? Why CBT does not tell what to do and how to react in healthy way to abuse and toxic people? Why CBT does not educate people suffering from social anxiety how to recognize red flags and avoid toxic people?
CBT instead explains through ABC model that if there is abuse - that this is our imagination. That our thoughts created the abuse and that we can control other people by our thoughts. That is highly damaging therapy based on insanity and delusions.
In movie Clockwork orange (1971) we saw effect of CBT called Ludovico method - CBT is therapy intended for criminally insane who are fantasizing their reality. So that they do not respond to people with violence. People with social anxiety are collateral damage of government trying to control small percentage of criminally insane by sacrificing our mental health.
Instead of CBT - there is Carl Rogers and Rollo May. Humanistic therapies have roots in 1920s - so medical officials could choose humanistic psychology over CBT - so there is a reason why CBT is forced as default therapy for social anxiety. It is a form of lobotomy intended for criminally insane, while kind and nice and empathic people suffering from abuse of toxic people are left to take prescription and therapy intended for criminally insane. It is modern version of 1950s lobotomy therapy.
" Humanistic therapies" "This group of therapies encourages an individual to resolve their problems and issues and achieve greater fulfillment by recognizing, understanding, and using their own capacity to develop. Humanists believe that not only is a person capable of making changes and achieving personal growth but it is their responsibility to do so. This idea places the individual fully in control of their choices and goals."
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"You know who you are." with toxic shame you do not know. With abuse you do not know. With narcissists you do not know. With manipulation and gaslighting you do not know. with complex trauma you do now know who you are, there is no self worth inside. There is only toxic shame - which compels you to do wrong and detrimental decisions in life.
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People like to throw labels. They like to put people inside the box, so that they feel comfortable in the world. Problem starts when we accept labels and when we believe other people without ever even to allow ourselves to doubt them and their definitions and their labels and their conclusions. Then it turns into self-fulfilling prophecy.
Also people tend to mix and fuse together shyness and timidness with being abused and traumatized into fawning and codependency. Again, if we believe in what other people say about us, we will deny ourselves to act in accordance of our instincts, gut feeling, common sense and our intrinsic values, internal locus of control. We'll start to depend on other people to explain to us reality and we will believe other people are superior if they do not show timid emotions. We'll develop inferiority complex and stay in roles that other people command and order us to be.
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When I am empath - I help people without expecting anything in return. There is no business deal, no hidden contract. This is what borderliners are not doing. They use empathy to get something in return and this is the reason why there are negative comments here, and why they feel attacked. They think empathy is a tool to handle people. I will help people even when they are rude to me.
Now the problem starts if I base my helping on the fear of getting punished and hurt by aggressive and rude people. This part is muddled and unclear. And that causes a lot of confusion both for empaths, codependents and narcissists who are exploiting confused people.
So this topic is important, it is vital that we know why we help people, what are the true reasons for it - and that we do not allow other people to label our empathy as people pleasing. And that we are clear with ourselves - is the reason for staying with toxic people due to fear.
From my own experience - it is not empathy. It is fear. And being stuck in codependency is not healthy.
With complex trauma and toxic shame, people who have empathy have not learned Dan Lok words, we missed to learn this wise message: "How people see me, how people view me, it's none of my business. I cannot control that. It has nothing to do with me because as a human being we all walk around with a filter anyway. You see what you want to see. You don't actually see the reality, none of us see the reality. We just see what we want to see. Whatever people think of you, and how they think of you - that's their filters that are doing the thinking anyway. For one person - most profounding. For another - I disagree. It has to do with their upbringing and beliefs. So there is no point in arguing with them. And it's stupid to think that you can change them, it's a waste of time. When you know that there's nothing to change, it is waste of time to try to change people, don't bother. However you could care about people without caring what they think. You know what you're about, you know your values, you know what you stand for, how they say, how they feel, how they view - it none of that matters. When you understand that any social setting - you will be calm, cool and don't give a sh*. It is ok. You know what to do." Dan Lok YT STOP Caring What OTHER People THINK of YOU! | Dan Lok | Top 10 Rules
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(18.6.2022)
Think about this more deeply. It bothers you - so there is something that bugs you. Now it is in the dark and you are bumping onto it, like in a dark room with objects around it. You do not have light, so you do not see what you are bumping against.
Please allow me to explain what I am talking about. You said: " I don't really have any toxic people around me." But in the same time you say: "I guess exposing myself to uncomfortable situations helps." "being stressed 24/7 for years?" So - there is something toxic in your life. There is something that you find uncomfortable. Also you say that this is 24/7 - so it is all the time, something makes you stressed. What is it? What is stressing you? You got to find it - so that you know what you are dealing with. Anxiety by definition is feeling discomfort from unknown source. Fear is acronym for False Evidence Appearing Real. So something is frightening you. My theory is that there was some kind of trauma in our lives - where we never learned how to deal with stress that we feel as adults. With social anxiety the cause of this stress in society. And if we are nice, kind, non-criminal people - the problem is in toxic people, in toxic environment. So - it would be good to find out and discover what is bugging you? What is stressing you? What situations are uncomfortable for you? Can you shape this discomfort, can you define it what this discomfort is?
"My mom just tells me to talk to friends" Now this sounds to me like toxic. When people are giving us unsolicited advice, when they are intrusive, when they appear as rescuer inside Karpman Drama Triangle - we have problem here. We are codependent and we see people's opinions and criticism as orders, commands. So something happened in our lives that made us believe that we are inept and that we depend on other people to give us advice and to lead our lives. We were meant to complete developmental stages by the age of 16. With social anxiety - this part was distorted, there was some kind of trauma - and we never developed our persona. So now we are stuck in social situations and we do not know how to manage them, we do not know how to recognize toxic behaviour in other people - so we can't reject it - and we are stuck in unknown vague fear, discomfort that we cannot define. As much as we are successful at discovering in finding shape in what bugs us - we will be more successful in finding solution to social anxiety.
" I just want someone to talk to some times, or hang out with someone." This sounds to me like loneliness. Perhaps you do not have social anxiety at all - but you google your symptoms and google explain to you that this is social anxiety.
Social anxiety is more than loneliness. Loneliness comes out as end result of trauma and fears of people who are hysterical. So your job is to figure out your social anxiety. Do you have fears from people? Or are you simply lonely?
This can also be complex - perhaps you are surrounded with toxic people who cannot handle your persona and they reject you?
Social anxiety is fear from people. It is fear from their criticism and negative evaluation. Problem is that this symptom is comorbid with many issues which are different - and social anxiety per se is trauma. Another problem is that many people are not aware that they were traumatized - since our brain protects us from experiencing pain - so it will explain and rationalize abuse as normal activity and nothing to pay attention to. Also, CBT - and all advice about social anxiety available through therapy, resources such as self help books and online - do not mention Complex Trauma at all - so people who google and seek solution to their social anxiety are being mislead and deceived into thinking that they have problem with communication skills and that they need to be "assertive".
So I see in your case that you do not have defined what social anxiety is to you? Is is mere loneliness...or are you afraid of people?
If you are not afraid of people - you can solve your loneliness easy - just go outside and talk to people. How other people solve their loneliness? They go to bars, they meet people at their interests, hobbies. If you are afraid of talking to people, if you feel fears around people - than this means that there is some kind of trauma - something happened that made you believe that people are dangerous and that they can hurt you. So with social anxiety we need to discover what happened to us. Social anxiety is not one time bully event. Social anxiety is series of invalidation and lack of love and toxic shaming that occurred in series of time when we were developing our persona. So now we have no basis to be secure in ourselves. Instead we have toxic shame.
So, Start here: Do you have toxic shame? How you feel about yourself? Do you trust yourself? Do you feel shame and guilt? Can you rely on your own decisions? How do you feel when you make mistakes - does it bother you by having obsessive rumination or you don't care too much about it?
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"Seems like exposure therapy is the way to self-love. " Nope. This statement is not true at all. Self love comes from concept called intrinsic locus of control, internal locus of control. So you do not depend on other people. You feel secure even if you are lonely or if you have million friends - where your happiness and feeling of security is not linked to outside circumstances - whether they are happy or unhappy. This does not mean autism. You are aware of your environment and you interact with it, but your basic value inside you is not effected by outside world, neither being lucky nor when having torments. That is self love. If you define your sense of worth with other people - that is called external reference locus of control and it is not self love. Instead this is called trauma bonding. You export your self love, self worth into other people - so other people control you. Their words affect your mood, their criticism make you feel toxic shame. And in the same time you believe that other people are gods and you must listen to them and never doubt them or reject them or confront them when they are being unreasonable and unrealistic (for example when they are perfectionist and they nag about your mistakes, flaws or ignorance). That is social anxiety - it is Stockholm Syndrome where we believe that loud, obnoxious people are superior and competent - and we are unable to realize that their behaviour is separated from our self love and self worth. Instead we fuse our soul with them.. And we end up being afraid of other people's criticism and negative evaluation - since our self worth is exported into other people. So what happens is that our self love is being connected to other people which basically means exposing. We falsely believe we are happy and worthy and accepted if we expose ourselves to others and when they accept us. That if people are good to us - that this means that we are good. Our self worth is therefore depended on other people's approval and their validation. And then we do everything to make other people happy and good - and we feel bad when they are having temper tantrums - and we try to fix their mood. That is called codependency. That is not self love.
"Over coming uncomfortable social situations. " With self love inside us, if we have self worth inside us - we would redefine uncomfortable situations. Now anything uncomfortable would be seen as a task, something to solve - or we would evaluate it - and if we believe that this is unsolvable - we would move on and leave it alone. We control what we can control. We can't control what we cannot control. With social anxiety and any kind of personality issue - we believe that we can control other people. We are convinced that we must appease and control other people. So with self worth we no longer feel happy in connection to other people. We feel happy for them, but our self worth is not aligned and connected with moods of other people. So basically we no longer see uncomfortable social situations as uncomfortable situations. Instead we are objective and realistic - so we label it more accurately: for example - some person is hysterical because they are mentally ill. It has nothing to do with me no matter what toxic shaming they threw at me. Or - another person is worried because they have financial issues. If I am not Rockefeller - I cannot worry for them, I cannot give them my life savings, so their problem is not mine. So them being uncomfortable is not seen through the prism of my responsibility. That is self love. There is separation between my values and my space between people who are appearing discomfortable to me. With social anxiety - we assume responsibility for other people and we feel their uncomfortable life as our own and we feel like it is our duty to solve their lives. That is codependency and it is social anxiety.
"This is what my therapist said, and what I have seen in multiple youtube videos." This is because of CBT. CBT is default main therapy for social anxiety - however CBT is not correct therapy for social anxiety because it does not address issues of self love, neither toxic shame, nor trauma. CBT is band aid therapy - it is intended for people who need immediate help during panic attack - when they might hurt themselves. It is not meant as therapy longer than a week. The basics of CBT is that it is based on self-pathologizing your symptoms as hallucination. This is because CBT does not make distinction between shyness-social anxiety-social anxiety disorder-narcissism. They lump it all together and treat is like Paranoid Delusional disorder.
CBT does not offer practical, step by step, concrete, healthy advice how to deal with difficult and hysterical people. Instead they explain that your thoughts are creating abuse, and that you can influence and control other people via your own thoughts (ABC Model). So CBT does not understand what Social anxiety is - that it is trauma.
Exposure that they are talking about is actually you without social anxiety. Without fears - you would hang out with people without any inhibitions or ruminations nor hypervigilance. So CBT is misleading - try instead Humanistic psychology. Ask her if she can treat you with Humanistic therapy (Rogers, Rollo).
There is third wave of CBT called DBT - so that is definite proof that CBT is non functional. DBT is similar to Humanistic therapies - it is focused more on self love than it is on symptoms of panic.
"The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am then I can change." Carl Rogers
"DBT teaches the skills to accept and tolerate distress and to manage disturbing or provocative emotional stimulation. The process involves gaining behavioral control, then experiencing rather than silencing emotional stress—discussing and accepting past traumatic experiences, and tackling self blame and dysfunctional thoughts."
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"Maybe you should start not giving a single f*ck on those people." That is social anxiety. You are hooked to loud, obnoxious, narcissistic people, rude people, people who are manipulative, people who nag about your mistakes, flaws and ignorance and you feel toxic shame as response to their criticism. That is social anxiety. Social anxiety by definition is fear of criticism and negative evaluation from other people. Normal, healthy, friendly people do not criticize others nor they express their evaluation in harmful way. Only toxic people do this.
So inability to shake off criticism is social anxiety. You simply cannot give a f*, you care and you worry about what other people think about you. That is social anxiety by definition.
So what I am talking about here are ways how to get unhooked and that I do not give f*** anymore.
Social anxiety is connected with empathy - empathy is being highly aware of other people and when you try to not hurt them in any way and that you have ability to put yourself in other people shoe's and you feel what they feel. So when you have this ability - you automatically try not to annoy or irritate other people. So being sensitive, being empath - we will develop social anxiety. When we grew up no one instructed us how to make boundaries between our self worth and other people. Instead - toxic people sniffed out this ability and they used us up as dumping, box bag that they use for kicking and throwing trash at. Now as adults we carry this trauma and we get triggered by toxic people - people who exploit and harm other people. Trauma makes you stuck to care what other people think and it makes you stuck to be afraid that they will treat you like garbage, you end up being afraid of hysterical, violent and unkind people - and that is your prime focus in life. That is social anxiety.
Social anxiety is not being lonely. Social anxiety is not shyness, that you feel shy when you go to some social event - because your fear will dissipate very soon. Social anxiety is not when you feel fear in all situations, including the safe ones.
Social anxiety is being acutely aware of people who are hysterical and unkind to others.
"does your life only revolves around toxic people?" Yeah, with trauma and social anxiety - you are like frightened dog that was mistreated by his monster owner - and you see this fog shivering with fear when you approach it. You are trapped in fear and see all people as potential danger - especially if they make sudden movements that resemble to the beating. This is called triggers and flashbacks in trauma.
That is social anxiety - inability to focus your life on anything else. You are stuck in fear of people. Social anxiety is connected with anything in life - since including your private life - everything is connected to society. So yeah - it is your whole life that revolves around your fear - which in social anxiety case are toxic people.
Additional problem is that our brain tries to keep us safe - and our brain will protect us from feeling fears and pain - so we will delude ourselves with self blame - instead of being aware of toxic people and trauma. That is why I talk here about toxic people. We have to wake up that anyone who has social anxiety (which is not shyness or narcissistic delusional disorder) is based on trauma and toxic people behind it.
People with social anxiety will not blame others, they will turn focus on self blame and that is why it is important for socially anxious as the first step to make it clear that anxiety is coming from toxic people. People who are hysterical, violent, egocentric, narcissistic, abusive. That is the cause of social anxiety and that is the source of ongoing social anxiety. Not ourselves. We are simply reacting to abnormal people, abnormal situations and abnormal events. Our social anxiety is indication that we are in close contact with untreated mentally ill people and that we were exposed to someone mentally ill who never sought help. When we do not understand the influence of toxic people in social anxiety - we will tend to self pathologize ourselves and thus create additional neurosis and unnecessary pain.
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". I always tell him that nobody cares and that no one is looking at him" Wrong approach. You are invalidating his reality. You must be his ally. I think you will cause him trauma if you force him to ignore and repress his fears.
This means, you trust him, you take his side and see what is bugging him. What you will discover - it is probably that he is bullied and other kids mock him. Investigate this part. How are other kids treating him? Do they make fun of him?
Perhaps there is some third reason - something that he is unaware of but it frightens him. And it is not connected to social anxiety at all.
Maybe he has strong sense of rule and order - so he wants to keep the rule ongoing to feel safe? Maybe he was yelled and shouted at when his mask was not on, so now he is brainwashed into believing that not having mask is catastrophe and disorder.
Obviously he has some strong reason why he wants to wear mask. Kids like to get stuck and be stubborn into routine. Can you seek advice how to deal with kids who are stubborn and ways how to develop new routines and new rules?
I would talk with him and try to learn his own reasons why he is convinced that he must wear mask?
If he was bullied perhaps he might be ashamed of it, and he won't admit it - so you can investigate this with clever questions like is he friends with all kids and what kids he doesn't like there - and see why?
If you deny his right to feel fear, you will teach him that he cannot trust his own feelings, his own instincts and that he must seek approval and explanation from authority that other people must instruct him in anything difficult in life.
The point is that he learns that he has right to feel fear, but that in the same time he has to face fears and adjust with society's rules - with compromise and negotiation and interdependence so that he has his own rights but also to recognize that society has its own rights, too - and we have to be diplomatic and seek compromise.
Perhaps that you show him photos from your grammar school - so that he sees that wearing mask is extraordinary event, not rule.
Maybe if you could allow him to wear mask on the way to school and back home but as an agreement that he does not wear it in school? To make agreement where he will retain his urge to wear mask? As a transitional period? Try that maybe that will work?
I would talk to the little guy, I would allow him to explain me freely his reasons why he insist on wearing mask. That he finds words to describe it. With anxiety we are dealing with unknown entity, we are in the dark - and we are not knowing what is there. The more we shine a light on dark area - the more options and solutions we will find.
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Ok, now we have more light in the dark room.
"Yeah I'm scared of people." We are scared of people when they are rude to us, when they mock us, when they are unreasonable, when they are dangerous, when they are critical and when they exploit us. This is critical to understand. When people are behaving like that, they are toxic.
You said: "" I don't really have any toxic people around me."" Well, if you are feeling scared - it is a sign that there are toxic people there - but you are not aware of it. You ignore it. Because if someone was treating you nicely, if someone was treating you neutrally - you would not feel scared. Our next step is to find out where is this fear coming from. So - open your eyes when around people. If they are not threatening, if they are not rude, if they are not intrusive - can you make a realization that they are not scary? Can you make that connection to feel safe with safe people? If not, why? Why would you feel fear if you know that this person will not by hysterical, violent, intrusive and rude to you?
"I can't buy certain clothes, shoes, etc, since I don't know how I will be judged for it." Yep, that is social anxiety. It is called Imaginary audience - and it is part of developmental stage identified by Piaget. This stage happens around when we are 12-14 years old and we are aware of potential critical people who might judge us how we appear. With trauma we get stuck at this stage - and now as adults we are stuck in fear of what other people might negatively say about us. This is indication that we were traumatized when growing up - and we never grew out of this stage. Instead we are stuck in arrested development. Something happened - and we never learned to rely on our opinion - not opinion of other people.
"Not sure exactly what trust yourself means. " Yeah, that is exactly why you do not understand this concept. You cannot understand it because with social anxiety we are stuck in time when trauma occurred. We never grew out of this developmental stage. We never completed to build our persona. So we are not feeling safe with being ourselves - since ourselves does not exist. Trust yourself means that you know that you are ok as human being. That you have value. That you are human being. You are not your fears. You are not complex entity that is full of needs and urges. You are human being with a soul that has his own rights to be and like things and express your likes and dislikes. That is trusting yourself. It is self love. It is self worth. It is knowing that you are person with rights. We never learned that lesson. Instead we were traumatized: we were ashamed, we were taught that we must hide, that we are inept, that we must be ashamed. That our feelings do not matter. We were invalidated - so we cannot accept ourselves since there is nothing to accept.
The irony is that in Buddhism this is actually the highest form of actualization - that you forego your ego - and that there is nothingness inside you. However Buddhism explains this nothingness as being build on your self worth and outgrowing it. With social anxiety we cannot outgrow it - since there was nothing to grow from to being with. We were pruned off - so we never became a tree. We grew out with this part in the dark - and now we bump onto objects in the dark : which we feel as social anxiety. We have to realize that we have room inside us that is in the dark - and that we need to light up that room and built it up.
C.S. Lewis said: “Imagine yourself as a living house. God comes in to rebuild that house. At first, perhaps, you can understand what He is doing. He is getting the drains right and stopping the leaks in the roof and so on; you knew that those jobs needed doing and so you are not surprised. But presently He starts knocking the house about in a way that hurts abominably and does not seem to make any sense. What on earth is He up to? The explanation is that He is building quite a different house from the one you thought of - throwing out a new wing here, putting on an extra floor there, running up towers, making courtyards. You thought you were being made into a decent little cottage: but He is building a palace. He intends to come and live in it Himself.”
Social anxiety is that our living room is in the dark - and we never build it up completely, we never furnished it. And now when people come to visit us - we let them in kitchen or hall. And we have no idea that we have living room for our guests intended for social events. No one explained that part to us. No one explained that social anxiety is inability to have part of ourselves functional and operating to welcome other people in. Since our self worth is build in relation to other people - both our self worth and social interactions never grew inside us. Our task is to build self worth - so we can welcome people in. Our task is to realize that we have room, space inside ourselves that we never payed attention to. When we start to realize that there is room inside us - we will build self love, self acceptance - and we will be able to socialize with people without fears. We will reject bad people. we will recognize them. We will accept and welcome good people.
With anxiety and trauma - we lump all people into one entity and we label it as danger and we avoid it.
"So I can't really go back there again." Go back. You belong there. It is your turf. Apologize to these girls, take the blame, you made mistake, promise them you will never do that again. We all make stupid mistakes and we all make fools out of ourselves. It goes with social life: making fool of ourselves. Mistakes that we make are lessons what we need to avoid and to become better people.
IF you start to avoid one place- this will soon spread to general avoidance and agoraphobia. So - go back. Face humiliation, admit you were jerk and do your thing.
"One guy who wasn't a close friend anyways, and would sometimes insult me when we were teenagers. " Don't force it. If he makes you uncomfortable . it is your right to protect yourself and to connect with people whom you feel safe with.
"Also I had a conspiracy theory, paranoia obsession at the time that was greatly effecting me." Yeah, paranoia is grouped in the same group as social anxiety, it goes hand in hand. This is again sign of trauma - we experienced something traumatic to us - and brain will try to keep us safe. It will seek danger out there and our fears will spread. In a sense this is normal - it is Darwin evolution - that we develop thorn if we were picked up too many times. I would make agreement with my brain - to acknowledge and accept my brain's urge to keep my safe by seeking danger. In this way you can turn conspiracy theories into mystery and adventure, something to pass free time - instead of being afraid of life.
"For meeting friends/women maybe I could go to a bar every weekend" I would work on self worth first. Without self worth, we do not know what we want from life. We do not know what we dislike. We do not have opinion about anything and we imitate other people. So - maybe do the opposite and take your time to be with yourself and you try to learn what you like, what your desires are, what your goals are, what makes you happy when you are alone and with yourself. The point is that you learn and build, chisel yourself up, like a sculpture. And then build relationships with people - after you know your persona, what you will tolerate and what you will reject from your life- based on your values, common sense.
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"My therapist said he says he has given me all the tools that I need," HE is right. Psychology is education, that you pick up tools and that you become your own therapist. That you solve problems based on these tools. That you become your own advice giver - even at the cost of being wrong and making mistakes and making fool out of yourself - that you have therapist inside you that will sooth your worries and tell you where to go next, it is like having inner GPS instead of relying on other people to tell us where we need to go.
However, problem with CBT is that tools are wrong :D
CBT is like disco ball in dark room. You need LED light to light up the dark. CBT only shines broken pieces of mirror - it is shattered pieces of tools that does not help you really - since the room is still in the dark.
CBT therapy for social anxiety ought to explain to you toxic shame, trauma, dysregulation, emotional hijacking, toxic people, Polyvagal theory, Descartes doubting, Socrates method of questioning, Truth paradox, cognitive bias, defense mechanisms, narcissistic abuse, Piaget developmental stages. Just check out my Psychology video list.
These concepts you need to learn if you have social anxiety. Then compare my list with what you learned with your therapist.
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"Its not literally 24/7. But very often. Just need distracting youtube, drinks or video games."
But you said "being stressed 24/7". Try to figure out what you are stressed about exactly. What is happening there?
youtube, drinks or video games are defense mechanisms. You are defending against something. You are reacting to something. What is it? What is making you to react? Who? Anxiety lies to us, it has credibility of car salesman. Anxiety will explain to us in general - that we are scared of people. This inability to zero in and focus in and microscopically target fear is the problem. Your therapist ought to examine that. It is like you have symptoms of fever - so we need to test your blood and see what is going on there. They might discover immunity antibodies such as youtube, drinks or video games but youtube, drinks or video games are not the cause of fever. They are only your brain's way to keep you healthy. This process of finding out what is bothering you is not easy - that is what makes social anxiety slick. You can check out my blogs about social anxiety and my comments about it. It has probably 500 pages now. So I will try to save your time here, so that you do not waste your life discovering what is truly stressing you out. Being scared of people is huge area. A lot of things can be hidden there.
From my experience, it is intrusive thoughts inside and toxic people outside. That is what we are scared when we feel social anxiety.
And then we can move forward and make some concrete steps to manage social anxiety.
Both intrusive thoughts (pureOCD) and toxic people stem from Complex trauma. There was traumatic event in our life that derailed us and made us feel fear with people. And now we are derailed. Our hand break is turn on and we drive through our life with our hand break on. We stutter and break often. We do not move very far.
We stutter because of toxic shame internalized inside us - and we do not have self worth inside us. It is exported in other people - all due to trauma.
So we need to educate ourselves about Complex Trauma and toxic people. There are incredible sources on you tube about narcissistic abuse and complex trauma.- That will help us sooth social anxiety - since we will target the root of trauma. We will know how to handle, recognize and retort to toxic people in healthy, functional, proper manner without isolation, without wars, without explosions, without drama.
Toxic shame inside us the reason why I said in my original post that any method, any technique that is directed in a sense that we must "improve" and "be better" is highly toxic to us - since this is adding up to our toxic shame. And it is unnecessary. If we have social anxiety longer than 1 year, we already sought and seek anything and everything possible how to improve ourselves. And when we have empathy - we are already better and improved than most of humanity.
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"it's really difficult to cure to the point of being incurable"
I will try to avoid being too long: Social anxiety is nothing to cure. Social anxiety is smoke alarm detector. Trauma is problem. And toxic people who caused it and that keep us triggering. And it can be cured - after we know what is triggering us.
"That's what i've always thought other people see me."
So basically - you never went deeper why? Why you thought that way? Where did this come from? Where did you learn that? I am afraid if you do not find the reason why - it will resurface later on - when your life will hit some trauma - financial troubles, death in family, betrayal, abuse, violence, back stabbing, some shocking event, god forbid. But it happens. Bad things happen and we get back to our trauma that was not healed.
"Cut off my connection with those toxic people since only I can do that and they don't deserve me."
Great! What I am talking here that many people with social anxiety do not come to that point to realize that there are toxic people out there. Instead - they feel self blame and they are stuck in codependency. Just because you succeed to overcome it, doesn't mean that other people will read your mind and mimic your path. Instead, they will google their symptoms of social anxiety or they will watch videos like this - and CBT will tell them that they are hallucinating their abuse and that their thoughts are creating the abuse. And that there are no toxic people out there. Can you at least try to understand that there are people outside of your mind - and that they are stuck with wrong advice about social anxiety? Can this information pass your egocentricity and confirmation bias?
"I travel to places, I started learning new hobbies like playing guitar"
Yeah ,excellent - but many people unfortunately tried this but they do not have information about toxic people, they do not have information about trauma, they do not have correct information about self worth and dysregulation - and these activities do not help them. And many of them do not take any activities at all - since they do not know where to start. You have to become aware that many people are stuck in labyrinth and that your successful life cannot be magically transferred to them. And that they need correct, clear and practical information about social anxiety. Can this fact get in your head?
"you don't have to really cling with those negative thoughts."
I don't. I am talking here about social anxiety in general. For people who are stuck with CBT and unhelpful and deceptive information about social anxiety. And I was talking about process behind social anxiety: that social anxiety is trauma and that it is triggered by toxic people.
"I had these mindset that whatever bad happens to me right now is neither the worst thing that has ever happened to me nor this would be the last time it will happen"
Again, you did not go deeper. Trauma hides toxic shame and perfection. So if you are not aware of it, manipulative people will trigger and manipulate your needs. And you will have no idea that this is happening. People will criticize your mistakes - and you will have need to rationalize mistake - and you will feel guilt and shame. You will not be aware that mistakes are part of everyday life. People will nitpick your flaws and ignorance and make you feel bad for it. It will happen. You will feel social anxiety symptoms - and you will decide to "heal" and "cure" this anxiety by denial and suppressing - since you know that social anxiety is painful experience. So basically you will turn yourself into pushover, people pleaser or you will use freeze response and pretend that you are not bothered by negative events and blame and shame. Or you will decide to use fight response - so you will slap Rock at Academy the same night when you get your first Oscar. And you fill ruin your life in any case. Because you still think that social anxiety is something bad and something you must "heal" and "cure" by being cool and chill about it.
"Try to see the world differently because no one will do that for you." That is my point of what I am talking here. That we totally change the way how we view social anxiety - and that we see it like smoke alarm detector. And that we do not reject it, even though it is painful. And that we realize that pain is coming from toxic people - who are parasiting over us and manipulating us in some way that we are not currently aware of. I am aware that this message is very complex and hard to understand - because we are good and nice and kind people. And we are raised to believe in just world. But reality does not work that way. We really do need to see world differently - but it is more like recognizing that there are dimensions higher than we currently see our reality. Social anxiety is simply neutral feeling from our brain that there is some chaos and disorder - and we need to investigate it, sort it out and see what can we do about it.
Social anxiety is not trauma. Social anxiety is part of trauma. Bad experiences you had in your life - are trauma. It is not social anxiety per se. Social anxiety is after effect of trauma - your brain way to tell you that you need to take care of yourself and choose healthy, functional and proper choices in life.
I know, I am aware that this information is difficult to understand and accept. Let is sip in. I believe in time, you will understand it. You do no understand it right now - because you believe that you have magical power to heal social anxiety by other people simply because you feel good at the moment. And that we are not allowed to talk about social anxiety because it reminds you of your trauma. Which basically means that you did not heal your original trauma. You simply healed your symptoms and any bad event will pull you under water. Now you are head above the water. And that is why you reject my information. You want to avoid feeling that pain, you want to avoid to experience that pain again - and that is how our brain will try to keep us safe - by not dealing with the pain. That is why you are annoyed by information about trauma and that is why you reject it.
You are afraid if you tackle your trauma, that you will fall back to depression and hurt again.
I have been there, I have social anxiety experience - I've been through it all. I know what I am talking about here.
If you were not so afraid of trauma and pain you would notice that my posts are full of hope and positive message and encouragement. Now you only see negative thoughts - because your trauma is still inside. You just find effective way how to cover it. Unfortunately, any bad event in the future will bring it back, you cannot hide away from unresolved fears.
If I were in your shoes, I would be Sherlock Holmes and I would seek clues why I chose to hate myself. Where did this decision to hate came from? This did not came from your soul. We learn hate. Hate is injected into us, like Satan. IT comes from external resource. If you do not fix your leaking roof, the next flood and torrent will swipe the patch you have and it will make that hole bigger.
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I knew that something was not right here.
Look, this is not social anxiety: "That ugly fat person with a rocky road face. That's what i've always thought other people see me. Man you had no idea how much i suffered"
Social anxiety is anxiety - which means it is unknown and vague. In your case - the problem was you physical appearance. So there is no anxiety - you know where uncomfortable feelings are coming from. And also, social means that it is coming from unknown social source - and anyone can be potential source of danger. In your case - bullies are the only source of danger and bullying. Random people in the street did not mock you. The clerk did not mock you. Medicine personnel did not mock you, they did not yell at you or scream at you for your physical appearance.
Social anxiety is condition when - imagine working at a bar or as clerk - and you have to deal with angry, hysterical customers, random people who scream at you and they are threatening your life and they are abusing you. That is social anxiety. Fear of such situations.
When someone bully and mock our physical appearance - that is bullying. It is normal to feel scared as reaction to this. With social anxiety there is hypervigilance that any person may potentially scream and yell at you for any possible reason . including your physical appearance.
So that is why your cure was working. You never had social anxiety. Social anxiety cannot be cured by positive thinking. Bullying can when you either remove yourself from bullies or you work out so they do not have material to mock you about.
DSM says that social anxiety is: - Marked fear or anxiety about one or more social situations in which the individual is exposed to possible scrutiny by others. Examples include social interactions - The social situations almost always provoke fear or anxiety. - The fear or anxiety is out of proportion to the actual threat posed by the social situation and to the sociocultural context. - The social situations are avoided or endured with intense fear or anxiety. - The fear, anxiety, or avoidance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning - The fear, anxiety, or avoidance is persistent, typically lasting for 6 months or more. - The fear, anxiety, or avoidance is not attributable to the physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or another medical condition.
Pay attention to the last one. You had medical condition - you were overweight. So technically speaking you did not have social anxiety. You misdiagnosed yourself. You searched the symptoms of bullying and google misdiagnosed you as social anxiety issue.
The pain and hurt that you felt are like in social anxiety. However, social anxiety is more general and unknown, it is vague.
"I started looking at myself in the positive way." So with social anxiety this does not help - since anxiety is unknown. And with social anxiety you do not have myself. There is no self. There is only toxic shame instead of self. So you have no basis to look at anything, since self does not exist in socially anxious people.
"Started changing the way I live. I work out more. I travel to places, I started learning new hobbies like playing guitar, drawing for my 3D arts. I play games and drink with my colleagues. " Here is the difference, so hopefully we can clear your misdiagnosis: - People with social anxiety work out more - but they feel like people are watching them and judging them on the way to the work out, during work out and after work out. People with social anxiety do travel - but they feel other people are judging them negatively before travel, during travel and after travel. The anxiety is present all the time. People with social anxiety do play guitars - but they are afraid of criticism from people about how they play the guitar. They are afraid of people judgement when they learn how to play guitar. They are concerned about what other people were thinking about them after the guitar playing is over. People with social anxiety do draw arts but they are concerned how will people critic their art and negative criticism hurts them deeply - to the point to stop drawing.
"You know, keeping myself busy and invovled." People with social anxiety are keeping themselves very busy in order not to think about anxiety and hypervigilance - so they are exploited by others and they are taken advantage of. And no, anxiety does not go away even when they are busy and involved, it lingers as hypervigilance in the background and you cannot shake it off.
This is why people like you - even though you have good intentions - but you are doing damage to people with true social anxiety. Because you do not understand what social anxiety is, you are convinced that brutal bullying that you have unfortunately experienced that this is social anxiety, and you give advice and expect that people with social anxiety become cured like you.
Where you never had social anxiety to begin with.
Social anxiety is complex. It is long and difficult and meshed like my posts. That is social anxiety.
It is serious mental condition based on trauma - it is not single one time brutal event from mentally ill people masked as bullies.
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I received comment that was deleted by someone. I could only read this part on message pop up: ""Why be afraid of those people? Why be afraid of criticism? They aren't better than you. They aren't stronger in some magical way. You aren't powerless. Ignore toxic bs. Don't pay any..""
This is actually good question. Short answer is: You can't. Fear is stuck at you like a leech and you can't shake it off no matter how much you shake or you try to rip it off.
Long answer: Look at cats. When they are startled, they will be panicked. You cannot persuade a cat to stop being panicked. The instinct of fear is inside - and the cat will always respond to their fears - even when it is something non dangerous. In the same way, our subconsciousness is picking bad and negative experiences in our lives and our brain makes a list of things that frighten us. This list is longer when you get criticized during growing up. Instead of love, you get invalidation. That messes up your brain. When you are exposed to long term narcissistic abuse - your brain can be injured. Google it. So there is a wound in the brain when someone is criticizing you relentlessly 24/7 and when you are exposed to adult hysteria in times when child brain is unable to process it as adult would. It is similar if you shake a baby - baby's bones are not strong enough - so you can damage baby if you shake it. In the same way, if you verbally abuse a child - there will be damage to the psyche. This damage then connect with chemicals and hormones inside your body. So your body gets you addicted to fear, too. There is brain damage, there are chemicals inside your body that are making you panic when criticized.
So socially anxious people are actually very calm people - since they are sustaining tremendous shock and inner quake that is happening inside their bodies.
"They aren't stronger in some magical way. You aren't powerless." Unfortunately, in certain cases they are. If you live in a poor country, you will not be able to change jobs - if you ever get one. So - you can be stuck in toxic job with toxic boss and toxic colleagues - and if you stand up for yourself - you can get fired. At the bottom line, yes - they control you. You have option to be homeless and hungry and beg for food. Would you take that option?
Perhaps you live with a psychopath and you cannot get divorce - look at femicide statistics around the world. If you are woman in such predicament, would you risk your kids growin up without mother? So again, unfortunately, in real life, people can be powerless.
"They aren't better than you" With complex trauma and social anxiety - during growin up, when you develop your persona - if you were exposed to criticism, invalidation and adult hysteria - your self worth will never get developed. Instead you end up with toxic shame. With toxic shame you are stuck with condition where you know you are inferior, you know that you are worthless and that you are unable to live. And the most disturbing thing about this already disturbing condition is that you are not even aware that you have toxic shame. Instead you have no idea that you can be better. You simply know that other people are better and competent. And that is reality that you never question - until you must do things that scares you. Then you notice that something is wrong inside - and unfortunately official therapy for social anxiety does not address toxic shame at all. CBT is therapy that basically tells you that your fears are hallucination. So CBT adds up to the toxic shame inside. And then they solve this problem with medication and brainwashing you to believe that you are delusional.
So what happens next is that you witness criminal activity on job - and you do nothing. People accuse you of things that you never did - you do nothing. You smile. You turn yourself in people pleaser - because every time when you witness toxic behaviour from others, you explain yourself that discomfort that you feel is hallucination, as instructed by CBT.
And one more last thing - being afraid is not something totally negative. Sometimes it is ok to feel afraid because it warns you that you are indeed in scary situation and that you must do something about it. Criticism is not totally negative if it is done in correct manner - through negotiation. Glasser detailed that in his Connecting Habits. If we do not warn people when they are doing something wrong - they might hurt themselves, cause damage that cannot be repaired. So "criticism" is not always negative. And also, we all make mistakes. Mistakes are part of social life. So I might say something that will hurt someone. So it is ok that I feel humiliated - sometimes when I did something unintentionally wrong. If I did not have capacity to feel low, I would never be able to build connection and relationships with people - because I would think that I am superior to them.
Social anxiety is part of trauma - it is manifold entity. Criticism and fears are only part of it. Social anxiety is like smoke detector alarm. On the market you can find cheap smoke detectors - and most people have these. People with social anxiety have high tech very detailed, very sensitive smoke alarm detector that detects even invisible radiation - that most people cannot pick up. The problem is when socially anxious people are not aware that the fears that they feel are natural and normal - and they try to reject and get rid of it. Then they cause additional neuroticism (worry and shame and guilt) on top of the already present one.
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"When you’ve been hurt or betrayed in the past, after setting your boundaries, yes you can learn to easily recognise toxic/abusive people. " Correct!
And here is the problem with CBT (default main therapy for social anxiety) - because CBT will explain to you that all people are safe and that there are no toxic people. So when you are around toxic people (people with criminal behaviour, abusive ones, hysterical ones) with CBT you make yourself believe that uncomfortable feelings that you feel are hallucination and that you must change your thoughts - and there will be no problem (ABC Model). That is highly damaging and this is why CBT must be banned. Just imagine if you are with someone physically dangerous - you would not run away because with CBT you would convince yourself that you are delusional, and that dangerous person/people are safe.
"But when there’s social anxiety- your reality is distorted and you feel threatened all the time- no, it’s the opposite of ability and should be cured so you can be at peace and happy." I disagree. You are mixing trauma and social anxiety. Trauma = injury that keeps you emotionally dysregulated. That is issue here. Trauma is broadcasting toxic shame and external reference locus of control which keeps you stuck in intrusive thoughts loop.
Social anxiety is smoke alarm detector. With each time you experience negative and abusive experience, the brain adds up the abuse to the list - and your smoke alarm gets more refined. That is how brain working, it suppose to do this. Without this ability - there would be no Darwinism - there would be no evolution. With each negative experience you learn more. Now trauma makes disorder- because relentless criticism and adult hysteria in child's age when the persona and character is developing is damaged - and you never form yourself as full persona with dislikes and boundaries as you call it. Social anxiety here is only symptom - it is not disorder. Think of social anxiety as fever when you get virus. Virus is doing damage, not the fever. Fever tries to stabilize the system so it does not go into chaos. With social anxiety the first thing we do is we isolate and withdraw - because we react to true cause of social anxiety: dangerous, abusive and toxic people. And intrusive thoughts and negative self image is stemming from toxic shame, not social anxiety.
I would go with Humanistic therapies, Jung and Freud - and even third wave of CBT called DBT: they all do not focus on symptom (social anxiety) but instead they place huge focus on self worth. Because self worth is anti-dote to trauma and toxic shame. That you develop ability to self-express yourself and that you develop persona: to know what you like and dislike without seeking approval from other people about your dislikes.
See social anxiety as the messenger from your subconsciousness - and you need to learn to speak its language. The same thing for inner critic. Both social anxiety and inner critic on the surface they appear brutal and negative and devastating. But this is only reflection and mirror of your inner state which is injured due to trauma and toxic shame.
Both social anxiety and inner critic are neutral but we do not see it like that because we reflect our reality on what we feel inside. And if we do not have self worth inside, we will have toxic shame instead - which will distort our reality. Toxic shame is disorder, not social anxiety. Social anxiety and inner critic tries to tell you that there is fraud inside you, hallucination, fake persona as toxic shame. But since toxic shame distorts your thoughts - the message is not coming through - and then your social anxiety and inner critic appears as enemy, something to destroy.
What happens next is that you destroy your ability to connect with people - because you need your negative emotions to live as authentic honest person. You need to have dislike, you need to feel discomfort and negative in certain situations - because that is how you will get direction in life where you need to go.
And toxic shame as satan like entity inside you do not want you to be free. Toxic shame is virus - it has its own agenda and that is that you live your life in shame and irrational guilt.
And toxic people exploit irrational guilt in other people - since that way it is easier to control people. This way your free will is subject to hidden manipulator, similar to life in North Korea. We are not as human beings to be born in chains and to live in chains. Human beings have natural desire to grow and to become healthy prosperous caring beings with empathy. Toxic shame destroys that.
And social anxiety is smoke alarm detector that there is something toxic - either inside you (toxic shame) or outside (toxic people).
If you self-pathologize yourself, you will create toxic shame. We can define pathology as anything that us unkind or violent. Social anxiety is feeling, uncomfortable emotion and panic symptoms - so if you have toxic shame inside you - you will define social anxiety as "unkind and violent" - while in reality it is not. This is similar process as allergy in our body when body recognizes safe pollen particles as dangerous element and tries to get rid of it - even at the cost of allergic shock.
I would encourage anyone with social anxiety to realize that if you feel panic and discomfort - that you seek inside you toxic shame and outside - if there are Machiavellians (manipulative people with hidden agenda) and act on those - and see if your social anxiety will subdue?
There are people who are really delusional and see danger where there is none: Paranoid Delusional disorder. So we need to investigate and seek evidence are we in real danger, or are we hallucinating. Since 1% of people have PDD, it is high chance that our social anxiety is caused by toxic shame (destroyed self worth) and toxic people around us.
I would abstain from self-pathology method, it does not work, even for PDD. Toxic shame cannot be healed by toxic shame.
Quote from the book about HSP: "They see us as timid, shy, weak, or unsociable. Fearing these labels, we try to be like others. But that leads to our becoming overaroused and distressed. Then that gets us labeled neurotic or crazy, first by others then by ourselves. The Highly Sensitive Person, Elaine N. Aron"
"Sooner or later everyone encounters stressful life experiences, but HSPs react more to such stimulation. If you see this reaction as part of some basic flaw, you intensify the stress already present in any life crisis. This deeper processing of subtle details causes you to consider the past or future more. You "just know" how things got to be the way they are or how they are going to turn out. It can be wrong, but your intuition is right often enough that HSPs tend to be visionaries, more conscientious, cautious and wise people. It is important not to confuse arousal with fear. And often we think that our arousal is due to fear. We do not realize that our heart may be pounding from the sheer effort of processing extra stimulation. I really suggest trying to view it as neutral. HSPs must spend far more time trying to invent solutions to human problems just because they are more sensitive to hunger, cold, insecurity, exhaustion, and illness. Since most non-HSPs do not seem to enjoy thinking about such things, they assume we must be unhappy doing all that pondering. Spend enough time putting yourself out there in the world - your sensitivity is not something to be feared. Carl Jung believed that when highly sensitive patients has experienced a trauma, they had been unusually affected and so developed a neurosis. Preferring toughness, the culture sees our trait as something difficult to live with, something to be cured. HSPs differ mainly in their sensitive processing of subtle stimuli. This is your most basic quality."
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" But literally, I am not an interesting person, I dont speak interesting stuff and people get bored of me.." First of all, you may be labeling yourself wrong. Let's start with this - what is definition of interesting person? Can you define that? Let's see what that entity means? From my experience - all people are basically boring. 90% of social communication is not interesting. And even moreso, people who appear "confident" and "talkative" are excruciatingly boring. They are convinced that if they laugh and talk loud and take focus that they are interesting - but they are actually annoying and irritating to most people. You need to know intrinsicities (particularities, caprice, perks, quirks) of all people in order to trigger things that they find funny and interesting. Can you imagine is it realistically possible to be interesting to all people at the same time? That is impossible! Some people like Chris Rock, some slap his face at Oscars! You cannot please all people. People are different - people are not the same.
So "being interesting" is not one external characteristic that you can take out of box and wear it. It is condition, it is mix of people who are witnessing it, it is set of current conditions - things that are thought to be generally interesting to talk about in 1850 would not be interesting at all in 2050.
So I see that you are being brainwashed by someone by the idea of what is "interesting".
In my case, I would love being with you in your company and I would fid you extremely interesting - because you do not yack and talk all the time. So I guess there are people out there that would define you as "interesting".
This is what I say when I talk about toxic people. Toxic people made you convinced that you must be clown in order to be "interesting". That you must be chatter box to be "interesting". That simply is not true.
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"But now that I read the rest of the comments"
Yeah, most people do not read all comments. Instead they reject something due to cognitive dissonance and they are stuck with wrong conclusions, building themselves delusions and hallucinations - while in the same time thinking that the annoying and/or different person to them is delusional and wrong and needs to be cured, ignored, rejected and*or destroyed.
Most of people will form confirmation bias, filter and live under the veil of lies and deceit.
I see social anxiety as seeing reality as it really is - but there is no person mold inside to form personality - so socially anxious people are stuck in void, empty space, floating like ghost and bumping at people when they need to interact with people - because we need to have persona, avatar to socialize.
With social anxiety due to trauma and toxic shame we are left without basis, we have no avatar, we cannot give birth to our persona - and instead we create false temporary image - which is toxic shame. It is toxic shame since this is imprint that trauma and unreasonable and unloving, non-understanding people gave us instruction and that formed our temporary shelf where our unborn persona lives.
So without fully formed persona, we are now sensitive to criticism and we seek approval from people - since this is the only way to form mold where our soul and persona and character will live, at least temporary. Since this is not healthy, since this is not sustainable - we feel social anxiety, pain, fears and panic - since we have no walls, no boundaries, no shelter, no home where we can cover when there is hurricane outside.
So social anxiety is signal that we lack ability to give birth to our persona and we walk around like ghosts, and society tries to mold us into what they define as "normal" and acceptable to them.
Most of us with social anxiety that happened in our teen years - we had persona before the trauma, before we start to withdraw from society. And that person is loud, that persona makes mistakes, that person makes noise, that person is unreasonable, that person is rude, that person is egocentric, that person is narcissistic and annoying and irritating and wrong - anything that we do not allow ourselves to be right now as adults since toxic environment told us and instruct us that parts of our traits are wrong and they cannot be expressed.
We simply have to go back to ourselves as we were before trauma. And that persona will be our shelter, that is where our inner GPS is, that is where we can "improve" and work on our skills and become "better" and acceptable to people who consider us weird and wrong. That persona will not give a damn for others - it will choose what to do based on its own likes and dislikes.
Social anxiety is a scream from our subconsciousness that we need to go back to our persona that toxic environment tried to destroy, change, mold into something else.
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"it’s really frustrating to be called the quiet girl" What is the exact problem here? That some people are labeling you? Or that you feel like quiet girl? Or both?
I see problem with all of that. 😁 First, if you allow other people's opinion affect you - then people will control you. You will base your life's decision on other people's expectations, their approval and their criticism. You can cut that trauma bonding and codependency by self love. Which leads to the second point.
If you hate being quiet girl - your are basically hating yourself. You hate the version of you that is quiet - due to any reason. That is self hate. That is self invalidation. That is toxic shame. Again, anti-dote to this is self love.
Self love is that you know who you are inside. With social anxiety and trauma we were traumatized and our persona is traumatized. It does not live. It is trapped in a cave. And instead we have persona of someone who is quiet and dependent on someone's recognition and external validation. Whereas social anxiety - if you feel it - is your body attempt to let you know that your persona is trapped inside you - and you got to set it free. And then be who you want to be - quiet or loud.
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"accept this is who they are" But this is exactly the core problem with social anxiety. You don't have you inside. You don't have a place inside you that you can call yourself. Instead there is toxic shame, a fake self, temporary reflection, mirage of yourself that you think it is yourself. This happens due to trauma, where your real self is suppressed, torn, discarded and hidden away. First you need to have self to build, improve, modulate, fix, nitpick, peddle, write, cover, change, chisel, do whatever you think it must be done. With social anxiety there is nothing inside. So your well meaning "advice" for socially anxious is adding up to the toxic shame - since you mislead them and they will feel worse when improving and fixing does not result with any result. Then they will believe that they are abnormal - and you will think that they are not trying hard enough.
So unless you know social anxiety, if you never read any book about it, if you do not know psychology - perhaps it is better to keep your mouth shut?
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"I hate attention and stuff like that." Our dislikes are the path to our persona. This is how we build our character, our person inside us. By knowing what we dislike. This is how we create boundaries, walls so that other people cannot hurt us with unfair criticism, and aggression.
We do not build boundaries by being happy, chirpy, talkative and confident. Being happy, chirpy, talkative and confident comes after we built up our walls, boundaries, our character and our persona.
"I try to overcome my anxiety" Anxiety is normal feeling, it is normal reaction to abnormal people around us, abnormal situations and abnormal events. Without anxiety you would not be able to detect hostile, dangerous, mentally ill narcissists around you - and they would hurt you. Imagine if you are in the room with serial killer and you do not that he is psychopath. All you have are red flags and your instinct in form of anxiety. Would you distrust your anxiety and form bond with such person? Would you say yes to anything that this person demands from you?
"I’m slowly overcoming my shyness" Social anxiety is not shyness. If you google shyness - google will misdiagnose you (and millions of others) as socially anxious. And to make things even complex - self help books and online resources intended for socially anxious are wrong. They are based on CBT which basically instruct you to believe that you are delusional and abnormal person because you feel anxiety.
Let's repeat: Shyness: this is when you feel inhibited at social events but this feelings quickly wears off and you do not think about it anymore. Social anxiety: this is when you feel inhibited at social events but you ruminate about it before, during and after the event. You are convinced that people hate you and that they are mean to you (and they probably were because most people are trash) - and this happens due to trauma when someone traumatized you from society and now you have fears of people. Social anxiety disorder: this is when you feel inhibited even when alone, when you are with safe people - when you know that this person would never hate you or hurt you in absolutely any kind of way - but you still feel fear. This is connected with Paranoid Delusional Disorder and 1% of people suffer from it. Narcissistic disorder: this is when you want to hurt other people and you criticize them and when you engage in fight response and you are antagonistic. Then you feel social anxiety in reaction when people warn and alarm you to stop it - because they cut your narcissistic supply and entitlement. Autistic disorder: this is when you are closed in your own world and you do not have desire to go beyond it. You feel social anxiety if you are forced to work with people and they are rude to you - and you are not aware that they are rude to you because you appear rude to them: for example you do not say hi to them, nor you smile to them.
And these people google their symptoms they feel about anxiety in social situations - and google misdiagnose them all as Social anxiety disorder - and you get information intended for Paranoid Delusional personalities.
So perhaps you need to first check where you belong here?
Social anxiety is not if your only problem is that you see yourself as quiet girl and you want to be confident.
Social anxiety would be if you are quiet girl because people around you judge and criticize you and if they are intrusive - aka they are toxic and aggressive and you feel anxiety as reaction to them being jerks. Social anxiety is if you work at bar or as clerk and you are afraid of hysterical, violent, loud, mentally ill people who curse you and attack you and slap you and curse you and threaten you with death. If this is your only fear and focus in life - then you have social anxiety.
If your only concern is that you are party animal and that girls love you and accept you as part of their sisterhood - that is normal shyness, nothing pathological about that. As soon as you discover that people are not dangerous - you will be forget that you felt shy with them.
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"Your reply on my non bias comment on Youtube alone sounds toxic" Or.. you are egocentric and you cannot understand people outside of your confirmation bias? You judge and make conclusions about people based on your angle, from your perspective - and you have no empathy nor ability to put yourself in other people shoes. This never occurred to you that this might be issue?
" Know it like I stated about being self-aware," Ok, so you do not understand psychology. But Dunning–Kruger is strong inside you. There is no self. People with trauma and social anxiety don't have self. Can you understand that? Can this information come to your brain? Can you visualize it?
Or because you are unable to understand basic psychology - then it means that I am toxic and wrong? So basically you put your ego in front before health of people who are suffering from social anxiety. You are narcissistic, that is egocentrism.
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(20-6-2022)
"Socially your brain is perceiving threat while there actually is no real threat." This information is incorrect. Let's make it clear finally and for the all time: 1) Shyness - it is feeling social threat feelings at some social event, but social fear wear off quickly and shy person is not bothered by it again 2) Social anxiety - it is feeling of social threat before the event, during event and after event. Fears do not wear off and you keep ruminating about it. This is due to trauma, condition called CPTSD and it is not hallucination neither delusion nor illusion. 3) Social anxiety disorder - it is feeling of social threat at safe events, when you know that person around you will not harm you. For example in safe, empty room, and you are with Oprah or Mandela or Mother Theresa or Gandhi - the safest person you can ever imagine - but you still feel threat that they might harm you. This condition is part of Paranoid Delusional Disorder, and only 1% of population has it. 4) Narcissistic disorder - it is feeling of social threat triggered when someone warns and alarms you for being intrusive. Due to confirmation bias you are not realizing that you are rude and arrogant and intrusive - so you conclude that you feel social anxiety due to unknown reason from random people. 5) Autistic disorder - you live in your world and you are not aware that you appear threatening to people, for example you do not say Hi to them or smile back to them. So you feel social anxiety because you feel tense and awkward in social situations and you have no idea why.
Now people will google their symptoms and Google will misdiagnose them all and direct them to Social anxiety disorder. Also, CBT (as main default social anxiety therapy) will do the same - it lumps all different conditions into one - hallucinations. CBT means self help books and online resources such as this video. If we ever pay attention to the small print - we will see that the therapist is the one who can diagnose us with social anxiety, when all other comorbidities are excluded-
"Or it is seeing real threats as much larger than they truly are." Oh can you define "truly"? Can anyone define what truly means? Is there some special book that classifies degrees in threats? Or is that the right and privilege of disembodied voice over internet?
"That is the main key: eliminate the perception of threat." Interesting. So...what you do when there is real threat? People who are listening to CBT end up with criminal people, intrusive people, toxic people - then they feel anxiety around them, and then they remember the instruction: that anxiety you feel is hallucination. Can you see the problem here? What would Johnny Depp do if he has chosen to label his social anxiety with Amber as "hallucination" and stayed with her? Now he would be labeled as monster, he would lose his money and career and reputation. Let me put it this way - how would you respond if you are stuck in a room with a serial killer - and only clue you have is your hunch, red flags and instincts that something is wrong? Would be ok to ignore your anxiety? Also, CBT never explains - what we do when there is real threat? How we react when someone is really hysterical? When someone is violent? When someone throws temper tantrum? On regular basis. And no, you cannot go away. And you cannot leave, due to any reason. What then? Why socially anxious never get clear guidance what to do? Because - there is no right way and people need to have anxiety to tell them what to do in such scary situations. So we can conclude that anxiety is not really that bad and it should not be rejected or ignored so easily as instructed by CBT.
"We need to get our subconscious onboard." Oh, and how you plan to do that? Subconsciousness is autonomous entity. It has autonomy exactly for detrimental approach such as CBT that misguide and deceive people in wrong direction. Subconsciousness is part of us that help us survive and guide us into right direction. It is part of Darwinism revolution, without it, we would not be here today as species. It is part of mechanism that have roses thorns. And you would ... what? Deceive it? Let it go along with delusions that we are not around toxic people?
Social anxiety is part of complex trauma, it is message from our inner system that we were traumatized in our past - and it wants us to direct us into keeping ourselves safe. So how you keep safe in social situations? By learning how to retort to toxic people in correct, healthy, functional manner without drama, without isolation, without explosions, without wars, without resentment, without grudge.
Then after we realize that anxiety is not abnormal, and that we are not abnormal - we will see that social anxiety is normal reaction to abnormal people, abnormal situations and abnormal events that we have witness.
CBT is wrong approach. It is Ludovico Method described in Kubrick 1971 movie "A Clockwork Orange". It is government program to keep criminally insane under wraps, it is a form of 1950's lobotomy, intended for serial killers, abusers, hooligans, narcissists - people without functional amygdala nor empathy. We are collateral damage to experimental therapy that is detrimental to nice, kind, friendly, sensitive, empathic individuals.
Instead of CBT there is Humanistic psychology, Humanistic therapies. Even CBT has developed the third wave of CBT called DBT and it is based on humanistic psychology: to accept yourself rather than being focused on panic symptoms.
When we accept ourselves as we are - then we can change ourselves, as Rogers said. Then we will realize that our Self is really damaged inside us, it is in a dark. And CBT is like a disco ball inside that black room - thousands of mirrors reflecting the light in small bits, never actually shining the light in that room. So we keep bumping on the objects when we walk around that dark room and we feel that as social anxiety when around people. Since toxic people traumatized us into feeling fears - of course that parts of ourselves will be in dark now. Abuse and toxic shame turned off the lights and we never developed that part of our Persona, it got stuck in arrested development.
In reality, that dark room is shattered and torn into pieces. And we cannot see that with CBT - because CBT denies trauma. CBT denies toxic shame. CBT denies concept of self worth. CBT denies Polyvagal theory - so CBT defines all these as hallucination. While in reality toxic shame that is inside us is the only hallucination. Our reaction to people is real and our inability to handle toxic people is real - since parts of our personality that handles people is in the dark, abused and shoved down.
When we finally get LED light in that room - we will discover that this room is shattered apart - and that there is no room. We have no Self. Our self got stuck when trauma happened. Our persona is replaced with fake persona, toxic shame, temporary profile - and this is the reason why we feel fears and this is the reason why criticism hurt us, and this is the reason why we cannot respond to people in healthy manner - since we have no basis to build character upon. Instead we have toxic shame - hallucination of persona inside us that depends on external validation.
Our Persona, our Self - is stuck in cave. We have to dig it up. We have to rescue it. It is trapped in a cave like in 2018's Tham Luang cave rescue. Our Kid is trapped - and we have to get it out and build it up, nurse it into adulthood and we will have operating system inside us that will handle toxic people and life's problems related to social anxiety. That persona will not care what other people think about it - since it will know that we are kind, nice, normal, healthy, empathic people without evil agenda, without hidden aggression against others - unless they are aggressive to us. Then we will know how to retort in healthy, functional, proper manner without wars, without drama, without hysteria, without isolation, without panic.
And then we will feel confident and talkative - when we want to and with whom we want to. With toxic shame we want to be chirpy and chatty with everyone, including toxic people who are manipulating us and hurting us.
So our dislikes, our fears, our negative emotions are also our guides to our Self - it tells us what we want in life and what we find to be intolerable and thus what must be rejected. With toxic shame we want to be people pleasers and to be happy and chirpy all the time and that all world is happy with us and that no one hate us - because if they hate us, than we think we are not worthy. And we think we are not worthy because inside there is no Self, there is only toxic shame.
So CBT is delusional. Social anxiety is real and it is our ally. It is voice within that will help us to overcome social fears, social anxiety. We feel social anxiety because we were traumatized - social anxiety is not problem. Trauma is. Toxic people are problem. Our Self is gone, it is not inside us. That is the message for us from anxiety. We live in deceptive, cruel, narcissistic world - and CBT is proof of that. Machiavellians will try to cheat us when we need help the most. Parasites will attack the weak ones, not the strong immune entity.
RD Laing: ""Our 'normal' 'adjusted' state is too often the abdication of ecstasy, the betrayal of our true potentialities.""
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"Today there is no need to fear abandonment." Unfortunately there is need- sometimes you do not have money and if you have no shelter - there is fear. You do not want to sleep in the streets and be hungry. If you are abused at work and you live in poor country - you cannot change job like in USA whenever you like it. You might get another job in 10 or 15 years, if that.
"You have access of billions of people on your smartphone." There is research that most mobile users are narcissistic and sick. So, that is not healthy people out there. I am not sure, how you plan to form close contact relationship with someone over phone?
"You can get bus ticket and get across town." People with social anxiety do not travel much. Due to fears. And no, fears do not wear off with travel.
"You can survive by yourself." You can't if you have no money to support yourself.
"It is natural to worry about other people's opinions." Social anxiety is worry about other people criticism and negative evaluation. That is important detail, but the devil is in the detail.
"Caring about other people's opinions." Ok, we need to make clarification here: Shyness - it is worry about people's opinion and it wears off as soon as you go outside and at events Social anxiety - is is hypervigilance, it is part of Complex Trauma and it does not wear off, you ruminate before event, during event, after event , and you cannot shake it off at will nor at the press of button. Social anxiety disorder - it is part of Paranoid Delusional Disorder when you are afraid even in safe situations with safe people - you still think they will harm you, and 1% of population suffers from it. Narcissistic disorder - it is when you feel social fears from random people - but due to egocentricity you do not realize that you are rude to them and their reaction is reaction due to your abusive and intrusive behaviour that appears as justified, masculine, cool and superior to you, from your standpoint. Autistic disorder - when you live in your world and you feel social awkwardness at the job or any outside even, and you are not aware that people are responding to your lack of saying Hi to them and not smiling back to them. Then people google their symptoms and google misdiagnose them all as Social anxiety disorder - intended for PPD. Now we have a problem of misdiagnosis. DSM will tell you in small print that the only person who can evaluate your social anxiety is therapist - after he makes survey and test to establish if there are comorbidities. When a person has problems - avoidance, inhibition and isolation is the first action that any person will take. So social anxiety is very often blamed for states that have nothing to do with social anxiety.
"Practice not caring." You had shyness. You never had social anxiety. There is no ability to stop caring because you have toxic shame inside you due to trauma. You do not have personality inside. There is no persona inside that can stop caring. There is only temporary image of Self. And this fake persona is feeling social anxiety whenever there is some social event - because Persona that handles social affairs is traumatized and stuck and shover and locked in a dark room.
"He would try to get uncomfortable reactions." Social anxiety is not about uncomfortable situations. It is about fears from toxic people. That people will attack you, exploit you, yell at you, scream at you, that they will throw temper tantrums. You are afraid of making mistakes because you are traumatized and programmed to be perfectionist - not because you are afraid of making mistakes themselves per se.
"Social anxiety creeping in my head." Social anxiety is normal. Anxiety is messenger from our unconsciousness that there is something wrong. If we are in contact with abnormal people, abnormal events, abnormal situations - we will feel normal anxiety. Jung and Freud discovered this. The problem are toxic people - not your legit reaction to them. So we can experiment and test - are we paranoid delusional. We can check people around us - are they antagonistic? Are they abusive? Are they narcissistic, are they rude, are they intrusive, are they too charming as if want something from you - like any narcissist during honeymoon phase. We will usually find that rude people trigger us - similar to our original trauma. Anxiety adds up the list of all situations that frighten us. It is suppose to do this. This is totally normal function of our mind. Without it, we would not be here alive as species today. It is proof that Darwinism is real and that revolution is ongoing and we are feeling it as social anxiety. This ability and mechanism to react to toxic factor gave roses thrones. So anxiety is not that bad as narcissistic society tries to convince us - so that we keep living as slaves in a matrix.
"Nothing will be more embarrassing than time when I wore dress." Well, try if someone is criminally insane and start to throw temper tantrum at you honest mistake. That is pretty ashaming. Or when someone mocks your flaws (internal or external) and you cannot change those flaws. That is bad. Or when someone is threatening you, scream at you due to your ignorance, lack of knowledge about something that you work on for a week. That is painful experience - and it never ends. This happens on daily basis. Jerks are everywhere. So yeah, there are worse events than wearing a dress. Imagine if Johnny Depp tried to shut down his anxiety when he was around Amber. Now , he would be broke, without career and the whole world would label him as abuser, like he is Epstein or Harvey or Cosby. So - ignoring your anxiety is not exactly very intelligent approach. I would advise you to read more books from Jung about it.
"Cure it a little bit." Anxiety is nothing to cure. Trauma is problem Toxic people are problem. Our inability to retort to toxic people in healthy manner is problem Our lack of true Persona inside us is true problem, due to toxic shame.
"Most social anxiety is severely exaggerated in your head." This is incorrect statement. Anyone with true social anxiety (not shyness) will find that there are toxic people around them - and this happens because when we are kind, nice, open, friendly, healthy, cooperative and empathic - we will attract toxic people and parasites - they sniff our our ability to be pleasant and nice guys. We are not the problem We are normal. They are abnormal, and they will cause us to feel social anxiety when they trigger our trauma wounds.
"We will care what other people will think." We care about other people due to trauma bonding and external reference locus of control. And once again - social anxiety is caring about criticism and negative evaluation - it is not general fear of people, of all people. You will not feel social anxiety when you are inside psychological safety. You will feel social anxiety when someone is screaming, yelling, throwing temper tantrums, when they exhibit mood swings and random angry outburst not associated to any horrid event.
"Whenever I start to worry about other people's opinions." Again - that is shyness. You never had social anxiety. Problem is that you try to "help" other people with advice intended for people with slight social fears which are in fact normal. Then you will label true socially anxious people as basket case since from your egocentric viewpoint they do not heal, you will label them as lazy and that they do not want to hear your excellent advice (which they tried millions of times by now, btw) - and then they will feel even worse because you will convince them that social anxiety can be cured with magic tricks and that their trauma and social anxiety is hallucination.
"Spotlight effect" There is also Standord Prison Experiment. You may be shocked about social anxiety results from that controversial experiment.
"Nobody cares what you are doing because they are all too worried about themselves." This statement is incorrect. Narcissists care - they sniff out kind and nice and afraid people - so they will closely scan you. Psychopaths care - they seek like predators easy targets: people who are afraid of people. People are easily controlled via shame and guilt and they know dark psychology. Parasites care - energy vampires too - they feel good when other person is worried. Machiavellians care - they seek people in need , people who seek desperate help, like help for social anxiety - and then they offer them offer that they cannot refuse - and then they steal their money, time, energy or whatever hidden agenda this sick people have. Marketing and politicians do this all the time.
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Social phobia is archaic label for social anxiety disorder, it was renamed into social anxiety disorder in 1994.
"poor social skills" People with social anxiety already have superior social skills - they have empathy, ability to put themselves in other people shoes and that is more social skills than 80% of population. So I would not go to self-pathologizing with people who already have toxic shame inside. Why not show encouragement and love?
Shyness: it is feeling social fears but they wear off quickly when around people Social anxiety: it is feeling social fears before event, during event and after event and it is part of Complex Trauma event. Social anxiety disorder: it is feeling social fears in safe events, with safe people - but you still think that they might harm you. Only 1% of population has this Paranoid Delusional Disorder. Narcissistic disorder: is feeling fears in random social situations but due to egocentricity you are not able to become aware that you are rude to people and then they alarm and warn you about your rude behaviour - and you feel social anxiety as effect. You are convinced that your behaviour is normal and that they are the problem. You justify your behaviour as strong, masculine, corporative, assertive, while in reality it is tyrannical and based on inferiority complex. Autistic disorder: when you live in your world and you are aware that people are antagonistic with you so you feel social anxiety - but you are not aware that they are appearing aggressive and angry because you do not say Hi back to them and you do not smile back to them and make any kind of reaction to their gestures due to your condition.
Now any of these will google their symptoms - and google will misdiagnose them all with Paranoid Delusional Disorder - as CBT is main default therapy for social anxiety. So people are basically taking therapy intended for criminally insane and thus googling your symptoms can make you believe that your are having hallucinations.
In reality - you have trauma from bullies and unloving toxic environment full of hatred, invalidation, aggression, rejection, narcissism. Long term exposure to narcissistic abuse can cause brain injury - google it. If you google your symptoms - then google more than your panic symptoms. Social anxiety is normal reaction to abnormal people, abnormal events, abnormal situations. Without it, if we ignore it - we would stay with toxic, abusive people.
Why we never hear how to deal with toxic people? How to handle abusive people? How to manage difficult people when all advice does not work and we cannot remove ourselves from situation (due to job for example)? What then?
Why would we distrust our common sense and never actually test and experiment other people - perhaps they are delusional and mentally ill? Why do we need to attack ourselves first without examining all the evidence and seek scientific proof of abuse and toxic people? World is full of toxic, narcissistic Machiavellians - and our social anxiety is natural signal, that we inherited from trauma. We need to heal trauma and toxic shame and to learn how to retort toxic people in healthy, functional, proper manner without wars, without explosions, without drama, without isolation, without self blame.
Self pathologizing ourselves is a form of self abuse and we repeat the original trauma by not loving ourselves and trusting ourselves. due to trauma we do not have Self inside, instead there is toxic shame-. We do not have Persona inside that would handle social problems. This character is stuck in arrested development at the time when trauma occurred. We need to nurture and come back to ourselves when we were before the trauma and chisel ourselves into character - not having fake persona that we have at the moment. Social anxiety is mere voice and communication from within that we do not have our Self active. It is shoved and locked in dark room - where toxic people shoved it. We need to let the lion out - and help it grow - and then we will handle social fears without problems - and there will be no social anxiety - until triggered by toxic people and Machiavellians ( people who are manipulative and who appear as help and friend but they are psychopaths with hidden agenda). Our social anxiety has ability to sniff these abusers - because trauma taught it to sniff toxic people out. We have experience how to detect toxic people. Social anxiety is sensitive smoke detector alarm. We only lack ability to handle toxic people in proper manner.
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"You are overly concerned what other people are thinking about you, when you are socially anxious" Nope. You are worried about criticism and negative evaluation. You are describing codependency. Social anxiety is much deeper and sinister.
"This all comes from fear of being rejected" Nope. You again are describing codependency. Social anxiety comes from trauma, CPTSD.
"So you reject yourself before anyone can beat you to it" Again, this is codependency. Very similar condition - but social anxiety is more complex. You try everything - you try reject you try accept you try inject, you try advice like this - it does not help - because social anxiety is not problem at all. Trauma and toxic shame and toxic people - that is problem.
"Accept you enjoy feeling of being rejected and judged" Ok what do you think, how Johnny Depp would end up if he felt social anxiety with Amber - and he accepted her borderline abuse? He would be broke now, he would be labeled as abuser as the whole world since he stayed with her and ignored her toxic behaviour or rejection and judgement, and his career would be over.
Social anxiety is voice from within , think of it like smoke alarm detector. You get abused - it will sound alarm. You get traumatized and bullied as kid - alarm will set of at minimal abuse. It is not broken - it is attuned to seek smallest abuse in order to alarm you and keep you safe. That is totally normal reaction to abnormal people, abnormal situation and abnormal events..
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In my experience I have self-regulated too much. I read CBT advice about social anxiety - that uncomfortable emotions are hallucination and illusion and that I am creating abuse with ABC Model - that my thoughts are explaining reality as abuse - and that toxic people do not exist, that was the message I received with CBT and social anxiety. Basically, ABC Model says that we can change our distorted reality and control other people via our thoughts. A lot of self-pathologizing and totally wrong advice from CBT. So I end up with witnessing criminal behaviour at work - and did nothing. I was accused of something I didn't do and I shut up and smiled back and stayed silent with self censorship. Over and over again. Year after year. Soon enough many people noticed that I do not react at all if anyone treats me like trash - so this turned into their open explanation that I am weird, wrong and there is something abnormal about me because I was kind and nice all the time(!). My first boss told me that I am not masculine and macho and that she wants to change me into a man (!) by her abusing me and mobbing me -yelling and screaming at me, being hysterical and vulgar and with mood swings and angry outbursts followed by cursing - which is basically the worst thing that can happen to socially anxious avoidant person. After two years of that crap, I started to watch you tube videos about narcissistic abuse and toxic people - and I picked up courage to confront her - I told her that what she was doing was not healthy - she was shocked and didn't speak to me afterwards - and in the end I lost my job (I was transferred first then transferred once again and then fired). I do not regret it though.
I learned that self-regulation is connected to Persona, Self. And with complex trauma that self got traumatized and now it is hidden. Instead there is toxic shame - and this fake persona works with social anxiety and avoidance since there are no walls and boundaries - since it is based on toxic shame, hallucination - image of Persona. I learned that my persona is kinda like Sandra Bernhard - loud, carefree, very friendly, honest and authentic - seeing her interview with Madonna at Letterman from 1988 actually reminded me of myself before trauma - which occurred in 1989. Thanks to Sandra I realized what happened. So I need to connect to my persona that is stumped and closed in dark room inside me and let it out. It will have ability to handle difficult and toxic people - that now I do not have courage nor energy nor anything to defend myself against - since toxic shame that is instead of Self Worth. Exactly those parts that were traumatized by toxic people are parts of myself where fear and phobia is located. I believe with trauma - our Self is hidden and rejected - and we need to seek it out and restore it back to light and life. I think narcissists also go through this Persona - fake Persona transformation - but they decided to handle problems by abuse and Fight response, without empathy. And they are too afraid to speak up and admit that they are "weak" and vulnerable and that prevents their healthy part inside to gain control. There is conscious decision inside narcissists to be macho and masculine, passive and covert/overt/altruistic and to hurt people through manipulation.
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I am starting to change mentality and perspective about Pure OCD intrusive worry loops. First, for me intrusive OCD thoughts appear as strong attachment, trauma bond, invisible bond with critical person, someone who is antagonistic, predatory and rude - and intrusive. For me, it is connected to social anxiety - so I avoid "going out" there.
What I realized after reading Jung and Freud - is that anxiety is smoke alarm detector from our unconsciousness. So I do not look at it as annoyance anymore, nor as something horrible. I look at is as if I have communication ability with my own chunk of mind that is beneath the water - something that you cannot "see" from the surface.
I see it as communication that it tries to tell me that I am missing abilities and capabilities how to protect myself from toxic people. That I do not know how to retort to someone who is nitpicking my mistakes, flaws and ignorance. And i do not know - I really have no idea how to act, what to do and how not to care about someone who is hysterical. Instead whatever they say stays hooked onto me like a leech and I cannot shake it off - no matter what I try to do to shift focus. Now I know that it suppose to do it - it is healthy to focus on ability to protect myself: that I learn about narcissistic abuse, that I learn red flags so I can cut it at the start, that I learn how to handle difficult people. So I was surprised to find out that there are actually short words that I can retort to my fears: hysterical angry screaming people. For example I can simply say "I do not know". Or "I disagree with you" and move on. I was convinced that I can handle conflict only via two methods: 1) that I scream and yell or 2) that I am passive, that I self censor myself and shut up.
Well . there is alternative third way : there are options that I can choose, similar to Terminator movie when Arnold as robot gets prompt messages that he can choose and speak out in communication with someone.
Then I learned that due to abuse - I actually had Persona that was handling this Retort business - but due to trauma it got traumatized. That part that could stand up to others - was frightened and locked inside the room. It was being told that it is sissy, non masculine, unacceptable, non worthy, inept and shameful. And now I am stuck with fake Persona - Fake Self, toxic shame - and of course I cannot handle situations that scare me - since there is no authentic, honest self that would handle it. I discovered that my Persona before trauma was like Sandra Bernhard - I watched her interview at Letterman from 1988, she was with Madonna. And yep - her actions, her talk, her carefree attitude - that was me before I got scared of life and people.
So I need to unlock that Persona out, let it grow and let is express itself - it will handle abuse in healthy and proper manner - direct, brutally honest and if necessary with rejection and door slam without ever thinking twice about it. I basically do not need to change anything about myself - I simply need to allow myself to be who I was, similar to the movie Total Recall (1990) - where my true Persona was erased and replaced with toxic shame fake Self. And OCD and anxiety is attempt from my mind to restore health back.
So OCD I see it as health actually. It is simply lost in translation and mistaken as enemy. In fact it is ally inside us that tries to tell us secret message that we desperately seek everywhere around us.
I see OCD and Anxiety as proof of Darwinism. It is example of evolution - that we develop thorn like rose. OCD is actually living example of phenomena that is connected to life itself. OCD tries to tell me that I have social anxiety because I have my true Persona locked inside me - and I need to be myself - be back who I was before trauma and chisel this traumatized child person into a man who can handle any fears that bother me with social anxiety: hysterical, loud, angry, violent, obnoxious toxic people out there. That when I walk away from them that I do not think about them and obsess about them and that I do not develop codependency issues and avoidance of anything similar to those people : practically anything outside. I have the "cure" and it is inside me. OCD and anxiety only try to tell us that we look within and seek the truth who we are.
We live in sick, deceptive, narcissistic society that pollutes planet and people - and CBT is method that is self pathologizing ourselves with false messages about how to help ourselves. Machiavellians (manipulators) will always hide when we have a need and when we need help - and they will misdirect us in wrong direction. Toxic people do much more damage than we are allowed to know. And the system is set up that way - that we stay in matrix, slaves to "self improvement" and as Jordan Peterson said "That we become monsters" etc. Sick world - and OCD is whistle blower from inside trying to pinpoint at the problem. We simply need to listen to it from loving stance and with self love and self acceptance (Humanistic therapies).
Abraham Maslow: "If you only have a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail."
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And we are brainwashed by system to always self blame ourselves. CBT is based on this idea that toxic people do not exist and it is us that are over-reacting, hallucinating the abuse.
And it is hard to even explain this to people in general - since we are told that toxic people do not exist, that we can "choose" to see positive. I was told that when I talk about toxic people that I am obsessed with them... And I totally understand why.
If we realize that toxic people are the true cause of virtually any problem, chaos and disorder in the world - we would become toxic ourselves. It is yin yang balance.
Toxic people are convinced in their mind that they are saviours, that they are doing great amazing things about life and people - and other people are too dumb to realize how amazing they are. From their perspective - we are toxic and aggressive because we are stupid and we are not perfect, that is how they see us. They think we are lazy and we simply do not try hard enough to be better/perfect and we do not appreciate their amazing job that they do.
So if we never consider that we might first self blame ourselves - we would lost ability to have empathy. We would always turn to point finger to other people.
And that is wrong approach. We need better, intelligent way how to retort to toxic people - that is not blaming, criticizing, accusing - yet it is direct, honest and healthy, proper and functional. I call this Retort. IT is not assertiveness - since assertiveness does not exist, it is marketing ploy to sell books.
We simply need to find out traumatized persona inside us, bring it out to life and speak the truth, be authentic, with mistakes and flaws and ignorance. That is the best way to deal with toxic people - we will repel them by brutal and direct honesty.
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"when really you are in control of your life" With social anxiety you are not in control - that is the problem. And you cannot get in control by simply talking about it. This is because socially anxious people were traumatized when growing up and there is trauma stuck inside. So social anxiety is not the problem - it is trauma.
"just gotta think positive" Thinking positive is not solution to all problems. Toxic positivity can be harmful. Imagine if you are in a room with serial killer and you feel negative because you sense that something is wrong. If you convince yourself to feel positive and stay - you will make yourself a death sentence.
"stay focus on what you trying to do in life with your self" That is the problem. There is no self. Due to trauma, that self never became true - instead it became imprint of other people. There is toxic shame inside instead of self. So what you stay focused on is toxic shame - and toxic shame tells you that you are worthless and think negative thoughts. So when you say to socially anxious person to stay focused with your self - you are actually telling socially anxious person to continue think negative thoughts and seek external validation.
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People with social anxiety have this issue - after the conversation is over they worry about it and it adds up to new anxieties to worry. I think many people who came to seek videos about angry customers are coming from people who experience social anxiety.
And terrible truth for socially anxious is: that some situations are unresolvable and we may do all the correct steps and still fail to gain approval from angry customer. When we feel scared and toxically ashamed due to such circumstances - I would focus on toxic person problem - not our social anxiety - as we might intuitively think.
That we realize that our social anxiety is smoke detector - and nothing else. IT is neutral. The true problem are toxic people out there, psychopaths, mentally ill people who lack social skills and empathy - and we need to know how to deal with aggressive mentally ill people like narcissists. The point is that we understand that the guilt we feel is part of trauma - it is not our guilt, that guilt does not belong to us. And the only way to remove guilt is to learn how to retort to toxic people in functional healthy manner - and that we realize that due to trauma we have false persona - which grew out of trauma - person that tries to fix other people emotions. Instead of that persona - we can go back to our true persona which is locked away - since trauma taught us that we must be nice, kind, friendly to aggressive people. We don't.. We have rights as human beings to be treated with respect and we can demand that right.
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(21.6.2022)
Yeah, that is the way: self acceptance.
However I see undiscovered problem with Self.
What I see here are two unrecognized problems: 1) trauma and 2) toxic people.
1) Trauma will impose fake Persona (toxic shame) - so we basically do not have Self inside us.
Trauma caused our true Persona to hide and that we lock it away. That is why we have intrusive thoughts - since they have no factory to be processed. They do not have hotel room to stay in. They do not have living room to have party. They do not have shopping place to buy what they need. They have nothing - only our toxic shame that directs it as it thinks is the best - which cannot work in real life - since we need our inner GPS to guide us. We need our room to host life. We need solid ground to walk. And our true Persona is that solid ground.
Due to trauma, bully event, accumulation of bad events in perfect Storm that derailed us and suppressed our true Persona - we got to be aware that we miss that in our life to lead "normal", functional life. Without activation of our true Persona - we will not be able to manage life.
And that is not the only issue. 2) Toxic people are external factor - they also influence our mental health. CBT does not recognize this - and CBT says that toxic people do not exist - that there are only wounded people out there that are behaving toxically. That is true - however - we need to label destructive people as toxic - because our True Persona is shaped by our dislikes. With toxic shame we hide away our dislikes. Due to trauma we are not allow to have dislikes. We are not allow to express ourselves and do what we like. With toxic shame - we do not do what we like - we do what other people approve to be liked. That is because we have no inner Self.
"Parent or top dog and child or underdog - parent always want us to change, child always evading these changes"
Yep, I see parent here as toxic shame and false Self, false Persona. With trauma - this part is now more imprinted than in other people. We were pressed too hard.
And I see now that we have ability to sniff out abuse and abusive people more easily in comparison with that of "normal" people who grew up in loving homes.
I would see trauma as unrecognized element in Parent-Child dynamics.
When there is trauma - the Parent is untreated mentally ill and their illness is transferred into child via unreasonable demands. To outsider, observer - these unreasonable demands do not appear unreasonable -but Mentally ill Parent and toxic environment will destroy parts of ourselves that we need later on in life - when we socialize and make bonds with people. I would take this element into consideration.
Now to the observer - it will appear as if Child rejects changes. And that we need to be explained in order to accept CBT guidelines how to be "normal" and without intrusive thoughts. The problem is that therapist/observer is not aware that Child - person who has intrusive thoughts does not have house inside to host any change. There is no mask, Persona that we need to have in social situations. Instead - there is toxic shame, trauma that prevents us to build solid ground where we could build any change and transformation or laboratory or living room - where we would process life and people. Now we have hallucination - toxic shame instead of it. And observers/therapist/CBT does not recognize this in their patients. They think the scared people have Self. They don't. They have illusion, there is no sold ground. It is empty space.
Both therapist and patient are not aware that there is empty space inside - and therapist will try to build on this fake Self - since it does not recognize that there is empty space inside. When therapist says to the scared person love yourself and self-accept yourself - the patient is confused and does not know what this means.
In reality, scared, traumatized person loves himself a lot - can you imagine what amount of love and acceptance there have to be to create illusion of self in empty space? So self acceptance and self love will cause a lot of confusion to the patient, scared person - and therapist will not know that they are modulating and creating love inside empty space, that they work on simulation of Persona that scared person has inside, instead of True Persona.
Solution is in activation of Persona before it was traumatized.
CBT does not help because it ignores the trauma element - and thus it does not recognize that the scared people are running simulation of Persona inside them. Persona is mask, it is made up image - however with traumatized individuals - there is holodec inside. Imitation of Persona - and therapists and CBT does not recognize this problem - they work on simulation without knowing it.
In my example - I have no idea how to handle angry people. I read and see advice to be assertive, - but it does not help. When someone is angry, amygdala hijacking kicks in - and I conclude it is best to avoid social situations.
I can realize that now as adult I am missing part of myself that would automatically and naturally deal with all situations that I find scary and difficult - while other people are not bothered by them at all. They do not ruminate, they feel scared but they move on. I stay stuck and I ruminate.
I can realize that my true Persona is someone who is brutally honest - that I was that person before trauma. And that I can activate it again - I just need to remember who I was. Similar to the movie Total Recall (1990). It is not about becoming fake me - it is becoming real me that is now stifled down and blocked - but it is true me - that was arrested in development due to trauma (bully event and accumulation of relentless criticism).
If I discover for example that me, that my character responds to someone for example like Sandra Bernhard - stand up comedian - I can allow myself to express myself in direction of someone like Sandra: being honest, being funny, being direct - and that when I know that this is true me - I will no longer will shame. People with intrusive thoughts feel guilt even when they are assertive, as you said at the beginning.
I think CBT deliberately ignores trauma because of this element.
So CBT is actually therapy intended for criminally insane - who also went through "trauma" - where their narcissistic persona was stifled down and replaced with more human, civilized persona that can interact with society. Similar to the movie "Clockwork Orange" (1971) with Ludovico Method.
Friendly, nice, open, kind, empathic people are collateral damage in this.
With CBT - which is basically self-pathologizing therapy - we are lobotomized into working model human, without dislikes, without emotions, without perks nor quirks. We are just zombies that smile and who are pushovers and people pleasers.
If I have empathy, if I have ability to overcome egocentrism - if I have no ill will toward other people - there is no need to feel shame about my actions and decisions, even when they are mistaken.
With toxic shame I am afraid of mistakes because I will try to please others - since there is no Self to focus on- instead I focus on other people, through external reference locus of control. With toxic shame I will try to find self worth in other people and thus seek validation and approval. And trauma caused us to destroy our self worth and look to authority for approval and guidance.
Intrusive thoughts role in this are signals, communication method from our unconscious part inside us - that there is imbalance and that we have issues that we need to discover and solve. Intrusive thoughts are lights in the dark that show us where is the problem. If I have worries about someone angry and hysterical and if I have no idea how to handle toxic aggressive, violent people - then that means that I have no Self inside me to react to them and to defend myself. Intrusive thoughts are therefore indicators, litmus paper that tell us where is problem - they are not illness.
So our toxic shame is built on our dislikes - not our likes - since our likes can be produced only with true Persona - part of us that was traumatized and stifled down. And we cannot have likes, we only have dislikes. When we have no likes - that is indicator that we have no true Persona inside us.
I would try deal with intrusive thoughts with Humanistic therapies, not CBT. Intrusive thoughts are indicator that there was trauma and we need to heal that trauma with self love - that we recover our Self as the first step.
" Humanistic therapies" "This group of therapies encourages an individual to resolve their problems and issues and achieve greater fulfillment by recognizing, understanding, and using their own capacity to develop. Humanists believe that not only is a person capable of making changes and achieving personal growth but it is their responsibility to do so. This idea places the individual fully in control of their choices and goals."
"Society attacks early when the individual is helpless." BF SKINNER
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"it is a characteristic of confident people" It is also characteristic of fake people, narcissists, too.
In the West, extroversion is praised as highest form of life. While introversion is scorned as illness and something to cure. Similar to the movie "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" where aliens (extroverts) are screaming and pointing finger at someone human, who is different than themselves.
We are being told that negative thoughts are illness - so we will self pathologize ourselves when we have money problem or relationships issues beyond our control. Due to hysteria and herd mentality - we will misdiagnose ourselves as neurotic and sick simply because we are in toxic environment beyond our control. And that we can magically "heal" and "cure" "negative thinking" and "looking non-confident" by talking from our chest. And if we do not succeed - then more of self-pathologizing: we are lazy, we do not try and we do not do it correctly. Society is sick, it is narcissistic, it does not allow nuisances, and depth and intelligence. Instead it is only to be happy and chirpy and loud and obnoxious 24/7.
Irony and paradox is that people who accept themselves, with anxiety and intrusive thoughts and with negative as they are - will build the basis to be happy and chirpy and loud and obnoxious and social 24/7 - but refuse most of it because they will follow their heart's desire and instinct what makes them happy: being normal, without drama and hysteria such as having parties all the time.
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Pushover is someone who is traumatized to agree with anyone who is aggressive. It is result of being in close contact with untreated mentally ill person. So they have hard time saying no - because they were manipulated and gaslighted whenever they made a mistake. There was repeated narcissistic abuse that conditioned the target of narcissistic abuse into fear, just like Pavlovian dogs or circus animal - it is hypnosis and programming inside. So - the problem is psychological, caused by external force. Problem is external - pushovers are not problem. If they are in healthy environment, they would simply be diplomatic and interdependent. There would be no toxic shame that toxic people are causing inside them through abuse.
Society works only through interdependence, not by having someone tyrannical in charge and the rest following that dictator. It is exchange of ideas and negotiation. If we pathologize people for being agreeable, we will turn them into narcissist. Agreeableness needs to be there. Agreeableness is not illness. Toxic people are: narcissists, manipulators, parasites, emotional vampires, psychopaths, sociopaths, borderliners, egocentrics.
And experts will not help if experts join into toxic shame and self pathology of someone who is pushover.
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"Low self-esteem is like driving through life with your hand-break on." Maxwell Maltz
I see that if we have self esteem issues that are longer than 3 months, and in fact is lasts a lifetime - it is a sign of trauma and presence of toxic people/toxic environment both of which we are not aware at all. And then we self pathologize ourselves - we see low confidence as illness and something to cover up. While in reality true problem is trauma and toxic people who are gaslighting us (probably with honeymoon periods or altruistic narcissism). We then target low confidence by overcompensation - and not the root cause: Complex Trauma and Machiavellian parasites that leech on people in need and pain.
Yeah about believing - you are describing complex psychological process of Self, Persona, Shadow - where we are balanced only when we are unapologetically authentic. When we are not able to be ourselves, and when we do not know what self worth and self love is, when we do not know what we want unless approved by others - then it is sign of trauma.
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"This is the way your body works. If you give your body a chance. Acceptance." Yep.
"You have to panic without panicking and not being afraid of it. I don't care if I panic again – that's the cure, not that I'm never going to panic again." We can only do this when we understand what is going on and when we are given tools to use when we are stuck in strange, difficult situation that will cause panic.
"You were been there before" That is problem. Panic starts when we were there before but now it is new situation and we feel stuck - or we do not want to go through drama again - and that builds panic.
"Acceptance" This does not mean acceptance of our acceptance of panic. It means acceptance of panic. And think for a moment what that would mean. It means that we see panic as something neutral, as Elaine Aron said in her book "HSP" - that we see extra stimuli as a way we process information, events and people.
When we understand this - we will notice something that was hidden: and that panic is built on 1) trauma and 2) toxic people. These two elements are hidden or ignored or rejected by CBT and other official therapies (which includes online advice and self help). Panic happens when we are in difficult situation and when we are not allowed to express ourselves freely, when we are unable to be who we are. This can be connected to money finance issues or shelter or relationships. For example, if we want to stand up for ourselves to say No to someone - and if this might lead to us getting fired - than all situations that may lead to us getting fired will trigger panic inside us. Like disliking something, rejecting something - anything that we do not agree with someone in authority to fire us - even via backstabbing and talk behind back. So panic can be part of socio-economic conditions - which are totally outside of our control.
CBT tell us that we can control panic and other people by changing our thoughts- This false guidance causes panic - since it is self blame method. We blame ourselves for the abuse of toxic people. If we are unable to find another job, because we live in poor corrupt country - we will be slaves to someone and we will live in panic. On some scale or another this is pattern behind any panic. There is duty and obligation on one side and there we are on other side - where we must do something that we find repulsive and what we dislike or we can't do it perfectly - so we will make mistake - and people may judge us. That results is panic.
But mayoclinic definition of panic -is that we are hallucinate it, and that is only our fault if we feel it: "A panic attack is a sudden episode of intense fear that triggers severe physical reactions when there is no real danger or apparent cause. " This definition is misleading - since it misguide us into self abuse, self blame, and we end up being pushover and people pleaser - since we do not recognize that there is external factor on the other side - that there is real danger and apparent cause such as us becoming homeless and living on the streets if we reject demands on our job.
I see ability to feel panic stems from trauma - when we were growing up there was lack of love and lack of functional model how to handle life problems. Instead we received relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria - and our child brain learned that we must reject our dislikes and replace it by serving someone else's dislikes and fix others. Now as adults we feel panic when we are unable to express ourselves freely - to speak up what we want when someone push us into something we do not want to do.
If we see panic as message from our body - we can then do something about it. We no longer self blame ourselves - since if there is blame - the blame is on toxic people and people who traumatized us. Now we are in position to see what we can do - we can investigate from where is panic coming from.
For example, maybe I have driving phobia. So I can evaluate from my standpoint and my needs and wants - I will benefit from driving the car - and if I educate myself about driving phobia - I can learn that panic will slowly wear off with exposure. Therefore I have clear guidance - that I expose myself to driving and see if it helps. It does.
However, if I open my eyes and see that there are toxic people who are the cause of my panic due to their constant and relentless and unfair criticism - and when I know information about complex trauma - I can decide to act on toxic people in functional, healthy manner - to retort to them, or to cut contact. Plan relocation if necessary. The point is that I activate Persona inside me that knows what I dislike and what I like.
With panic - this Persona is not active. Panic is signal , message from within that we have toxic shame instead of Persona. We have no working model inside us that will guide us in our lives - towards things we like and want and rejecting things we dislike - based on scientific, laboratory fact checking about what bugs us. Maybe panic stems from people treating me badly. So if I know that I am good person, if I have no ill will, if I do not exploit others and that I do not want to harm other people - than problem is not inside me.
With CBT - we are being told that we are problem that problem is inside us - that we are hallucinating our reality and create drama out of nothing - and that we must reject our likes and dislikes by labeling ourselves as delusional. Imagine if Johnny Depp rejected his panic telling him that Amber is toxic person and cause of his panic? He would be broke now, labelled as abuser and his career would be over - if he listened to CBT and blamed himself for having panic - and ignored it. Instead - he made proactive steps - which we can learn by educating ourselves about toxic people and how to handle narcissistic abuse - which is most commonly cause of panic. He documented the abuse and he left her. Of course, she sued him - and that is what I talked about at the start - that when we stand up for ourselves, when we take correct and healthy steps to handle our panic - we will be attacked by toxic people who feel entitled to exploit us. They will have lies and deceits against us and they will try to ruin our life one way or another.
So that acceptance of panic means.
Thus official advice for panic is misleading and detrimental: that we blame ourselves. Nope - we examine ourselves. Panic wants us to signal us that we need to examine something acute and disturbed and plan how to heal and fix it. That includes panic of panic, too: hypervigilance.
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I would go deeper. ""Is this true?" and "Is it about me?"" People who experience toxic shame - actually do not have "me". They cannot have boundaries. They cannot build them. This is because toxic shame is False Self. It is a simulation of Self. And as such - it cannot sustain boundaries, there is no ground, it cannot be grounded.
This is because toxic shame stems from trauma. We were exposed to toxic people, narcissistic abuse, relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria which child brain was unable to process other than rejecting true Self and creating new False self that is people pleaser and afraid of criticism - because as such we can function with someone who us mentally ill: unreasonable, someone who can't take No, someone who hates parts of us that are needed for communication: disliking something and expressing yourself. These essential parts of Self are destroyed and pushed down - and instead Toxic shame is up.
So after trauma and abuse - we build our "persona" on toxic shame - which are castles in the sky. They are hallucination and this appears as delusion to CBT - when they treat socially anxious. CBT does not understand toxic shame concept - and is unable to imagine that people who are afraid, panicked and anxious - that they have no Self inside.
So it is essential if we suffer from toxic shame - to realize and learn about Persona and Fake self concepts - in order to build up our own Persona which was prior to abuse.
That persona will know how to handle criticism and fears. Toxic shame cannot handle criticism and negative evaluation - since there is no Persona nor Self inside. Only simulation of Self, holodec world that appears real - and it is prone to quakes when criticism, mistakes, flaws or ignorance crack its holographic walls.
The more we are authentic, true, natural, as we were kids - the toxic shame will have less and less impact on our lives. And we will bring life decisions based on what we like or dislike - not what we think other people might approve.
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"Also quiet people are most of the time targets for bullies." Oh yeah, and that is exactly why they bully - that way they test and scan for kids who are quiet - and then they target them as easy targets to bully.
"I just wish there was this switch that I could turn on to be loud as a motorcycle and yes I hate myself." Were you always quiet or did you decide at certain age to avoid and withdraw?
If you were not quiet in early childhood - it may be that your Persona is trapped and stifled down - and we got to free it.
If you were always quiet - I see this as social anxiety is then message that you need to find working, functional model that will handle both intrusive people and your persona - which may be that you are not loud and obnoxious. Perhaps that you have set of things to say whenever someone comments you being quiet, a response that is automatic and non violent, perhaps even comical. I read about making it to the extreme - like to the point when you exaggerate it - so that they have nothing to add to that.
I see social anxiety as signal - it is not problem. It is communication, it is voice, it is direction - that tell us that certain part of our social life need our focus. That current way how we handle it is not functional and we need to find better, healthier, more natural and easier way how to deal with things that annoy and scare us.
I would investigate more your social anxious fears - see what lies there. This fear has got to start from somewhere.
A lot of people are said that they are this or that - but they are not affected by it. They dismiss it - and never think about it at all. They do not care at all what others commented.
If this part is bugging you - other people's comments - it means that you are ashamed of yourself and that you care about other people - that you find their opinion important, you react to their comments about you being quiet.
So you are ashamed of it and you hate it. Try the opposite. Embrace it. Love that you are quiet. Love it! Give it energy. If you were quiet 45 minutes, now be quiet one hour. Let it go free. Don't stifle it. Don't hide it. IF someone says you are quiet - tell them back "Yes, I am very quiet". And - don't talk any more since you are quiet :D Own your character - you are quiet girl. That is your Persona. Be the quiet girl. See if your anxiety will lessen.
What bad will happen if you are quiet? Are you concerned about that? That you will be lonely or that people will talk about you behind your back? This means that there are more things that you are ashamed of - and you need to discover what it is - and embrace it all.
That are our shadows. Own them, they are part of you. That is what makes you you, this is why you are different and unique than others. That is making you special.
The problem is when parts of ourselves prevent us from achieving our goals and tasks in life.
Is being quiet prevents you from life? Does it make you stuck? Do you think you would get more from life if you were not quiet - go out more, have more friends?
Obligations that we put on ourselves - keep us trapped in the same time.
Do you know what you want out of life? What makes you happy and where do you want to go in life?
If you do not know answer to this question - it is a sign that we do not have our true Persona inside us. We are not who we are. Then we build False Self and try to live life by worrying what other people think of us.
Self love and self acceptance is build on our self worth. We need to have Self to build these.
Usually due to trauma (invalidation and criticism and bullying) we stifled our Self down - and we replaced it with toxic shame - where we hate ourselves.
However - hatred is indication of our true Self that cries out for our love and acceptance.
What you hate inside you - is your true Self. If your Self does not want to harm others, if your Self is honest, authentic, kind, nice, if there is no will ill and no evil desire to cause pain to others - that is our Self and we got to love it, no matter in what package it comes out. When we hate it and stifle it down, we will experience social anxiety, intrusive thoughts, fears - which are only warning signs that we lack love towards ourselves. Social anxiety is smoke alarm detector- and we focus on healing our panic fear symptoms - instead of interpreting social anxiety as voice that tell us what parts of ourselves we hate and reject.
Start loving yourself - as you are - with flaws, mistakes and being undone - and see if your social anxiety will lessen?
Carl Rogers said when we accept ourselves - paradoxically we will be able to change those things that we hate about ourselves now.
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"There's a way to protect yourself from negativity though,to not feed into it, protect your energy." What I am discovering that with social anxiety inside us - it is a signal that there is no "your" inside. So basically with social anxiety you can't protect anything.
This is complex concept described by Jung. I will try to make it as simple as possible.
You need to have Self inside - to do anything in life. And then you protect your energy and have positive thinking and shift focus away from toxic people.
However when we feel social anxiety - we do not have ground inside ourselves. We do not have home. There are no walls - so this is the reason why other comments hurt us and that is why we feel social anxiety.
We do not have Persona, Self. Instead we have toxic shame and Fake Self - which is not real and it has set of dysfunctional rules and explanations about life and people.
The part of ourselves is traumatized - due to invalidation and bullying and abuse, so the part of our Persona and Self is stifled down. It needs to be activated.
Developmental psychology - such as Donald Winnicottt tell us that we can do this by play and allowing ourselves to be as kids - allowing ourselves to do things which toxic people criticize us and where we feel shame now and guilt.
Then when we have Self and Persona - we will naturally repel toxic people and think positively - since we will love ourselves, we will have working, functional part inside us.
Social anxiety is not problem , it is indication that our Self and Persona are not true - and we have fake person inside us, toxic shame. We lack love and acceptance -so we need to give ourselves love and acceptance first.
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"If you understand ignorant people why they do what they do it should not phase you or make you feel bad." Yes, that is true - however you are missing trauma factor here. Trauma is neglect and invalidation that happens when you grow up. Each child has a task to build - a house that will provide them with protection and shelter later on as adults. When this child is exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria - this house building project is on halt and it is arrested in development. So you have socially anxious people - who never built their house right - there are floors missing, or windows, or doors - so these parts inside are not functioning. When a "normal" child grows with validation and learns that is ok to make mistakes - then this child can understand ignorant people. When you are abused - ignorant people hurt you - since you do not have functional house inside you that would give you shelter against outside influence. Then socially anxious people become codependents and they feel they must fix other people- they attach to abusive people even when they are rude to them and they attach to everyone - and any criticism hurts and it is felt personally. This process is called trauma bonding and external reference locus of control So you advice simply cannot work with socially anxious people - since they do not have working, functional model inside them that would say "Who cares" and move on. They cannot do that - since they were programmed to never say "Who cares" and they were programmed to be immobile.
"It is their problem not yours." Without a house inside you, everything is your personal problem - because you do not have your own problem, you do not have ownership - you are homeless. And you seek shelter - you cannot sleep outside when there is hurricane or snow or heat. And this means - your problems are problems of people around you - whoever these people may be. You are trauma bonded with everyone since they provide you with shelter that you are missing inside you. And you cannot build house by knowing this information. This information helps - but the house is still not inside you. You have to build it - you have to know what to built and how to built it. You were given wrong instructions when you were growing up. This process ought to happen naturally - with love and acceptance - it is not something that you impose by uttering the words: It is their problem not yours. This does not help, unfortunately - it is not so easy.
"accepting the anxiety should be the first step in accepting who you are and love yourself." I see that you have trouble understanding the Self concept. Accepting anxiety will not help - unless you have Self inside you. Socially anxious people do note have Self inside. They have toxic shame, empty space, a hallucination, a simulation of Self - holodec that runs program that appears as Self and it is depended on other people's observation and approval to keep on going.
Perhaps this analogy will help: You keep telling socially anxious people that they need to accept their fear of learning Excel program. That they need to handle mathematics and be good at typing and knowing shortcuts and special ways how to enter formula. However - what you do not see and what you do not understand is - that socially anxious people do not have computer at all. They do not even have mobile phone - they have nothing to install Excel program. They have clear view of computer of the neighbor. They have ability to go to neighbor and work on their computer - but this only lasts as long as the neighbor allows it and approves it. Maybe if they had their own computer - their Windows would be different version than the neighbor. Maybe socially anxious person would prefer alternative software to Excel such as OpenOffice - similar to Excel but it's free. The point is that they have no computer. They only have idea what it is, how it looks, how it should work - but they do not own computer. And you think that they do - since they are convinced that they have computer - their definition of computer is neighbor's PC or idea in their head how computer must look like. They are able to read books about Excel and watch instructional videos about Excel - but they do not know that there is also Word program that may solve problems much easier than Excel if they are related to text. They do not know that they can do a lot other things - if they had computer and search for answers if they had their own navigational browser.
So when you said someone " accepting who you are and love yourself" - these are empty words. If you understand the concept of Self you would reformulate your words into: "activating who you are and love the Child who you were before trauma, let it play - allow it to express his emotions and needs without fear" and then "accept that who you truly are and love yourself in fullness with flaws, mistakes, weirdness, quirkiness, particularities, madness - love it all".
"Follow your inner moonlight; don't hide the madness." Allen Ginsberg
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" I feel like my body betrays me because when I blush people can read my emotions like an open book" To me, this sounds like classical example of social anxiety. If you were autistic, you would not notice people, you would not blush as reaction to them - since there would be no reaction to them. If you were autistic you would not have ability to understand that people have ability to read your emotions.
"very bellow average social skills." People with social anxiety have high social skills in form of empathy. We may be lacking some operational skills that come naturally and automatically with exposure - such as offering people with food or drink, or asking them how are they in order to start conversation with someone, or initiating meetings etc. However we have ability to put ourselves in other people shoes - we are forced to do this due to fears and potential threat - and this is a way to outgrow egocentricity - which 80% of people lack. They pay a lot of money to learn this ability - and you have it inside you for free. So give yourself a break and be confident in your skills already inside you - this means: Not only that you lack social skills, but actually you can teach other people about crucial social skills such as empathy.
"basically in any social situation that puts the attention on me I will blush heavily. " I see that your mind wants you to accept yourself as you are. That you do not hide it, that you do not cover it up. That you put it in front, and show your blushing. Think of it like Barbra Streisand's nose. Everyone could mock her because of it - but she accept it as her trademark. She is beautiful woman and everyone loves her because she is nice lady. People love her because of her character, openness and being friendly. In the same way, people will accept you for your warmth and ideas and intelligence - people will not connect and interact with your blushing. Blushing is natural part of you and you accept it as that - it react to social situations - but it is not necessary for having conversations or approval nor disapproval of others. Our fears and phobias are Darwinism in action. We are experiencing evolution that we read as unknown concept in biology class actually happening inside us. So I would not only accept blushing - but be extremely proud of it - since you are having inside you totally awesome experience of being human being - that helped us to survive as species today. If you are religious - this blushing that bothers you is very much connected with God and our destiny. Darwinism is teaching us that when we are in danger - our body will react to danger - and it will cause us to transmute and change things that we are feeling painful or threatening. Thus roses developed thorns that helped them to survive. If you understand this concept, it means that your blushing is your evolutionary ability to react to people - without this ability you would be autistics, you would not be able to identify scary and dangerous people, nor you would have ability to form friendships - since other people would appear as object to you. Something to use and discard - that you do not perceive as living organism that can hurt you or please you. Your blushing is ability to react to people. So what to do about it? Can you change it? No. So what do we do when we cannot change something? We accept it. Will blushing kill you? No. Will it cause you a disease? No. Will your blushing hurt someone? No. So - I see no reason why not accept it? If you see it as evolutionary step - you will not see it as foreign object- it will make you open your eyes about science and connection and people around you. You have ability to tap into deeper and more meaningful dimension of human life and experience. I would accept that gladly. I would not hide it. I would not think about it anymore. I would think about my reactions to it. You said that you do not like blushing because you think other people may exploit it. So - you are actually saying - what I was talking in my other posts - that toxic people are actual problem. As it is in any social anxiety case.
You would not be afraid of people who read you like open book and love you because of it. You would only be afraid if people exploit your blushing as a proof that they can mock you and hurt you and consider you "weak".
So what can we do about that? To make long story short - you lack love inside you. There is a part of you that is stifled down. It was probably you as kid when you were mocked for blushing. That kid - if you allow it to come out on the surface - would know how to handle toxic people. With social anxiety - in general - we lack the ability to construct our social life - and that includes a retort to intrusive people. No one taught us this - and CBT instead of helping us - tells us that we are delusional and that we must not trust our own mind. Which only brings more toxic shame - if we do not accept our perceived flaws and natural mistakes.
He would ignore them, run away from them, do any natural reaction to them - you do not allow it. Because you learned that when you allow yourself to follow your emotions and react to people who react to your blushing - you received the message that you are inept, unworthy, weak - and now you hide that part. Don't. Allow yourself to react to people - in functional, healthy, proper manner. Allow yourself to play. Your current reaction to blushing now is rigid, you said that you labeled it as phobia. So it makes you stiff and you feel social anxiety. You interpret social anxiety as dangerous since you fuse negative emotion with your character - you think these two are linked together, as all socially anxious people fuse their emotions with their persona.
The trick is to - whenever you feel scared - that you allow kid in you to react natural to that fear without judgment. Allow kid inside you to play, to speak out, to express itself. And also accept blushing - which means -- do not hide it, love it instead and even try to produce it on purpose. Go into the fire and let the fire to burn off the ropes that are keeping you tied up.
See if that will help to easy the anxiety.
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"Argue with your boss if he does not like you he will find reasons to boot you and it’s all happened to me it’s a shitty way of living if you can’t say what you wanna say if you want to keep your job."
You are speaking the core fear for socially anxious - which may appear to outsiders as "feminine" and "non manly" - that if they are truly expressing themselves - they actually fear that something dangerous will happen. It is not issue about masculinity and being competitive or king of the hill. And it will - people get fired. I did too. Toxic people are problem - and we are in position where we cannot reply to them - without jeopardizing our shelter and finances. I see solution is - that if we want to confront and decide to "be a man" - that we need to be aware that in life - at this stage of capitalism and economy system - we need money to be a man. We need to have money behind our words - in case we are punished for being honest and authentic. Yeah - it is our task and responsibility to be fair, kind, non violent and to follow basic communication rules - no drama, no hysteria - simply being honest and speak the truth without being cruel about it. We have to accept cruel reality that this ability comes with having money and shelter as protection net - that is the price for being honest and authentic in today's world.
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"his was started in the 70's by women involved in the now movement."
Nope. I do not see problem in women movement. I see problem in toxic people, narcissists like Trump - Karen drama queens inferiority complex types that hide their mental illness by wearing a mask of power and corruption and being evil - that they perceive is masculinity. Toxic people cannot handle confrontation - someone who is honest and authentic - so they punish their employees and fire them or backstab them or do some criminal activity. That is the only what started this - being afraid of conflict. Money and shelter - if you are blackmailed about your basic needs, you will be slave to toxic people, Machiavellians (manipulative mentally ill people, psychopaths).
Because if any man is afraid of conflict - it is because there is fear you might lose your job - your money income, your shelter. If you study and analyze and fear of confrontation - that is the root of fear. You would not be afraid to be honest and authentic - which is interpreted as conflict and confrontation by toxic people who cannot handle the truth. You would speak it and live it. You cannot do that in case if your livelihood is jeopardized by cowards in power who use passive aggressive manipulation tools to attack you back, since they are unable to do it as a man - face in face with arguments.
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There is no confrontation. That is myth created by people who cannot handle the truth. Confrontation, assertiveness - it is all marketing ploy to sell motivational books and parasite over people's emotions and troubles.
When you speak the truth, when you express yourself openly, when you are honest, when you are authentic - when you are not evil, when there is no ill will towards others, when you are not criminally insane, when you have no criminal intent to others - you simply speak up your opinion. That is all. Then someone with cognitive dissonance cannot handle your truth - and they will create conflict and confrontation. Since they do not know communication skills or they have no idea how to regulate their anger or any other emotion. They will make it into a fight. There is no fight - you simply move back the subject of conversation to the idea and opinion that you have.
Socrates — 'Strong minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, weak minds discuss people.' "It is far better to be alone than to be in bad company" George Washington "Care about what other people think and you will always be their prisoner" Lao Tzu "People who can't communicate think everything is an argument" "If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail" Maslow "..the unpardonable sin is to be an unpleasant person" Galen Starr Ross "No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth" Plato "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize"
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""Children learned many adaptive survival skills that they may utilize in adulthood: A sense of responsibility, competence, and a valuing of connection are among strengths adults with a CPTSD history can carry." This "valuing of connection" springs up as social anxiety - and many people with social anxiety are unaware that CPTSD is behind it. They google their fears related to social life - and google directs them to CBT methods of "curing" anxiety. And CBT is explaining them that they are delusional and that there are not toxic abusive people. That trauma may or may not caused social anxiety - and that is not important to look at trauma at all. While in reality - social anxiety is inability to construct social life due to trauma - and in fact social anxiety is brain's attempt not to be socially anxious - but brain is unable to create and construct social paradigm needed - due to trauma: being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when growing up. So social anxiety is not problem at all, it is a lighthouse in dark see that signals where you need to look at and go in that direction - to develop social life- which is hindered by false Self, toxic shame, non functional beliefs from trauma programming such as I am inept, I cannot trust myself, other people are superior, I must hide my own opinion and my interest and follow herd mentality and conformism in order to survive.
So basically socially anxious person has perfect communication and social skills (which CBT explains as there are no skills at all) - however due to trauma there is guilt and shame - even when socially anxious person does everything perfectly and by the book. Then this shame and guilt is fused with social life - since it seems that it is connected. And thus social anxiety is born. Social anxiety is fusion of toxic shame due to trauma with social relationships - which may imitate or repeat the original trauma. Without activating the stifled traumatized kid inside as that kid was before trauma - and that is the child that does not care about being competent and responsible - we will not be able to regulate difficult social situations that cause social anxiety panic attacks.
"these children are so used to being "of service" they aren't always sure how to just "be" in relationships." Yep, because traumatized kid is stifled down and it must be part of our Persona in order to handle difficult and strange situations that cause us anxiety now.
"As adults, their challenge can be to not feel swamped by other people's emotions or dilemmas and to not let other people's needs take over in every situation" Yes, that can only happen when they allow irresponsible, abrasive, loud, playful, innocent child inside from the dark, that is locked inside due to trauma. That kid must become part of our Persona now - and that part will handle social situations which today we find difficult, stressful. That kid would leave toxic people, it would reject them. With trauma we are afraid to leave. With trauma we invite toxic people - since we repeat the abuse, it is natural habitat for us to experience put downs and drama. With that kid inside us alive - we would retort to toxic people, we would be brutally honest and scary to fake people - and this way we would naturally repel them - we would solve half of our problems just simply by being ourselves - without doing anything.
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"Some narcissists are control freaks. They will tell you directly what you can eat, how you are suppose to eat, what you can wear, if you can work or not. But some narcissists hide their control you may think you are selfish for doing what you want." News from toxic culture country: Young American Kaleigh Hendershot explained why she escaped from Croatia in 2019: "Often I heard Croats intruding why am I eating something, or commenting about what I wore. There is no such thing in America, we allow people to be what they want to be."
"For many narcissist accusations are a powerful method of control because they can accuse you of anything without needing any proof while denying to accept any proof you provide. And then punish you as they see fit." Yep. Narcissist use double binding methods to gaslight. And any action can be explained as evil - virtually any action we take can have negative perspective - due to natural world in which we live - where action is evil (there are even quotes about this in religious books). It is philosophical fact and narcissists use it to their advantage. We want to be good, nice and not hurt anyone - and they simply use this our ability to be nice and cause no one harm against ourselves. They basically rip off our healthy friendly part of us - and beat us with it.
We need to be aware of their manipulation and cut contact wherever possible. Sometimes due to job, shelter, finances or family we cannot leave. At least not right away.
Also, we need to find operative, functional, healthy method how to retort to them. Being hysterical will make us into monsters - and that is their goal - that we lose control and become evil. So then they can present themselves as saviours and angels and thus seek admiration and validation from others.
In order to avoid getting out of control as reaction to their mentally ill aggression - we need to listen to Fitzgerald who told us to have empathy to toxic people: that we remind ourselves that we never know from what toxic environment people grew up from - we do not know their circumstances. So our goal would be like JLo in sci fi movie based on Stephen King novel "The Cell" from 2001 - where she enters into the mind of serial killer and creates connection with kid that is inside them. The focus is on that kid - so that will prevent us from becoming monster ourselves as reaction to their abuse.
Documenting the abuse is great tip! Johnny Depp would never win the court without it. Narcissist will stab us in back when we leave them. They are mentally ill. We are dealing here with someone who is aggressively criminally insane. What they are doing is conscious decision to be evil. What they are doing is criminal activity. it is serious.
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"Long-Term Narcissistic Abuse Can Cause Brain Damage" google it.
"Continuous stress due to abuse can damage the brain cells in the hippocampus, making it gradually shrink in size. As a result, the person starts to forget things easily and finds it difficult to learn new stuff. The prefrontal cortex is the region of the brain that is located right behind the eyes."
There is also brain abnormality in narcissists/psychopaths: "Researchers used magnetic resonance imaging to scan the brains of 34 people, including 17 individuals who suffer from narcissistic personality disorder, and found that pathological narcissists have less gray matter in a part of the cerebral cortex called the left anterior insula."
They create zombies out of other people. They bite their brain and turn other into zombies - like it was prophesized in comic books and horror movies.
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"to accept myself I wont hide my feelings anymore" No. Hehe, it is not that simple. Right now you do not what "myself" is. That is something you uncover with time. Also, if you randomly expose your feelings - you might go overboard. When you have "myself" uncovered from trauma - you will automatically know in what way and how you will express yourself. You will be confident in yourself to either be silent or to protest when necessary. You will have inner motor that will signal you what to do. Right now social anxiety is the only motor - and it signals you that you feel fear in social situations - but you do not having working model how to handle social fears. With "myself" inside you - you will still feel social anxiety - but you will perceive it in different way - you will see it as your ally, not something to be scared of or reject.
I know this is complex, so I'll try to explain.
If we have social anxiety - we do not have our traumatized self - so there is nothing to accept. Our brain keeps trauma away from our consciousness and it springs up on surface via social anxiety.
It is probably that you do not know what your Self is - if you have been experiencing social anxiety.
You have to dig down, and find it, perhaps start writing your feelings. To sort your fears out.
You said: " any social situation that puts the attention on me" That is your social anxiety trigger- that people observe you. therefore - this is a tip where you need to discover the persona inside you - why you feel threat? What are you afraid of? That part you need to accept. That means that this fear you have has no living character inside you. You said any kind of situation - but is this correct? Are you afraid in safe situations - with safe people?
Do you feel threatened because you said something or did something? Of you feel social anxiety just by being there and appearing? Can you be honest with yourself and see is this something that is violent or unkind to others. You said one important clue: "people tend to see me as someone who feels superior and overconfident " How do you know that? Did they tell you this? Or is that your own conclusion? How would you define "superior" and "overconfident"? Are you loud? Do you mock people? Are you inconsiderate to them? Superior and overconfident could mean a lot of things. And these are signs of False Self. When we are traumatized we tend to stifle down our true Self (for example I have been mocked that I am sissy - so I was scared to show any sign of femininity - even wearing red or bright clothes). So we build Fake self, fake persona that we think other people would approve or it would make us feel safe - that other people do not criticize us.
I would explore that part if I were you. What are your social anxiety traits and characteristics, what are your fears? Can you list them - so that you can see the map what makes you uncomfortable?
Also - it is not about hiding or expressing feelings - it is about balance. It is about common sense. What is objective in given situation?
Borderliners read advice to be themselves - then they yell and scream - without knowing that being your Self is being calm since you love yourself and you feel shelter inside yourself - so nothing can disturb you. Other people cannot trigger you - since you have home inside you as shelter against criticism - and you can calmly analyze criticism as relevant or irrelevant. If you are in a room with 4 people and one of them is a serial killer - it would be wise to check your anxiety that you feel from one of them - and look for red flags to discover who is intrusive and overly friendly. If you need to do something new - you will feel anxiety - and you will have to balance it by being realistic and check what is frightening you. If you yell and scream in order to express your feelings of fear - it would not help much.
I think for social anxiety false Self and Persona is very complex and difficult concept to grasp - since it is literally taking the blue or red pill in the Matrix. Your mind will probably reject information that your whole life was a hoax and fake hologram - and that there is true You trapped inside you that you need to become aware of.
"The false self, in Donald Winnicott's developmental schema, refers to certain types of false personalities that develop as the result of early and repeated environmental failure, with the result that the true self-potential is not realized, but hidden."
So, this basically means that maybe it would not be a bad idea to check with a therapist who is expert in developmental psychology and or Humanistic therapies.
Or at least that you educate yourself about it - you can literally google images of "False Self" "Jung Persona" "Donald Winnicott quotes"
And see if it makes sense to you. If you have social anxiety - it will make sense, since many things that has bothered you - you will understand as soon as you see image of False Self and Authentic Self.
Social anxiety is comorbid with shyness. There is a chance that you perhaps had some extreme version of shyness, so you might take that into consideration, too. If it was shyness - this means that repeated exposure to social situations will make you less anxious. IF you avoid them, you might develop symptoms of social anxiety - but not have really have it.
I personally see writing as the excellent tool for calming down anxiety and become clear about it.
Anxiety is like a black transparent veil over our eyes - and we do not see reality clearly. Anxiety is like car salesman - you cannot trust it no matter what it tells you. Anxiety distorts reality - however this distortion comes as our prejudice against fears and uncomfortable emotions. So we are creating false image of world without even being aware of it. It is like filter - we do not see world as it really is. We see only our definitions, explanations, perceptions.
When we were traumatized - we stopped believing in parts of ourselves that handle social life - and this part of us is now stifled down. So now - when we are in social situations - we operate from false Self - so there is no "myself" - you cannot accept anything since there is only a simulation of "myself". You can check this out - by asking yourself what you like? What you really like about anything? What is your true desire? What would you do if you had all money in the world - chances are that you would not know it -and that you would base your answers as reactions to what other people would admire about you if you had money. (villa, car, travel, clothes etc).
Also you can check if you have "myself" inside you by asking yourself - do you love yourself. Can you love your mistakes, flaws, ignorance, vulnerabilities? If you blush and feel shame about it - chances are that you do not love yourself - since there is no part of you that is suppose to be inside you - it is traumatized and stifled down. Once you discover what that persona looks like, what that persona likes - then you will be able to accept yourself.
You will know that you have your True Self when you are no longer feeling shame about anything that is related to you. It is normal to feel shame and guilt when we did something wrong - but that does not define us as person. With social anxiety we fuse shame and our character - because inside we have Toxic shame or False Self - we do not have true Self inside us.
Once you have your true Self activated - you will feel love and compassion - for everyone. Even to toxic people and you will repel toxic people since you will express your opinions without fears. And toxic people hate transparency. You will no longer hide your mistakes - and you will not longer be hard on yourself when you do make mistakes or when you look funny. You will feel contended with yourself.
And that is how other "normal" people appear confident to us. They do not have fears - they talk without fears, they do not care if they blush or make mistake - they are confident - since they were never traumatized when growing up.
Put them inside Stanford Prison Experiment - and they will start to show social anxiety symptoms.
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"You keep mentioning trauma as if you suppose to dwell on it." Jung said if you do not deal with trauma, it will run your life: “Until you make your unconscious conscious, it will direct you and you will call it fate.'
"That is the past, just forgive what happened." It is not about resentment. It is about understanding what happened and how can I grow up straight - after being damaged and pruned off and been bent to grow in crooked way. That is the point of trauma healing. Many people do not have idea that they have Complex Trauma. I have been avoiding people since 1989 - and I have discovered Trauma concept in 2021. Until then I was not thinking about trauma. I heard that word before - but I would reject it as nonsense. All the time I was people pleaser and fawning - and I felt dysregulation - and I never know why. With Polyvagal theory and trauma bonding - I finally learned why.
It is like a dark room. If you do not light it up - you will bump into objects in there. You will move around slowly and it is like driving through life with your hand break on - you stutter and you are practically immobile - while other people live their lives carefree - I am stuck with hypervigilance and rumination that I cannot shake off.
"Abused people abuse people." Narcissist consciously choose fight response. It is conscious decision to harm and exploit others. Not all people who were abused turn into abusers.
"But in the present ...You just gotta stay strong and find a way out," That is that traumatized people do - and they develop ego immature defense mechanism such as introjection (soaking up opinions of other and their feelings) and they end up with defense mechanisms. So trauma shapes your life in negative way - it sets you up to be immobile and pessimist - and you struggle with things that most other people do without any problem. And abused traumatized people are extremely strong - since they endure the trauma and still are here. It takes incredible power and strength to endure trauma, the blue devil.
"stop thinking you suppose to depend on someone" With codependency - you can't. Because you are stuck with hypnosis and conditioning and programming from trauma. It is like Pavlovian dogs or circus animals - you are programmed into learned helplessness.
"that is not a natural way of living your life-it keeps you in an unhealthy rut" Yeah, and if you are not aware of trauma - you will stay in rut. Thinking will not help you - if you are not aware what you are thinking and when you run trauma program in your mind. Confirmation bias keeps us trapped in a cave. All people have issues with confirmation bias - it is not endemic to socially anxious.
" It is called independence, responsibilities, and privacy, your own space." You seem to have your own issues with it. Part of Codependency is paradoxically extreme independence. You are simply reacting to the same trauma - so you become the opposite. It is still the same problem. The natural and healthy way to live is interdependence. When there is a balance between you, your desires and outer world. If you are too independent - you will become narcissist and you will be unable to connect with people.
"You gotta have your own so you wont be homeless. " If you live in toxic, poor country -you do not have much choice but to accept toxic environment or face being without shelter. That is how our world works with money system, thanks to narcissistic society full of toxic people.
""Just protect yourself."" Socially anxious people are already doing that- but they do it via unhelpful and non functional tools and methods - called "safety mechanism" and "ego immature defense mechanisms".
Gabor Mate said: "What we call the personality is often a jumble of genuine traits and adopted coping styles that do not reflect our true self at all but the loss of it.”
So there is no yourself with trauma - it is only collection of your safety mechianisms.
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I realized that instead of apologizing - I expressed it through toxic shame, self blame, irrational guilt, fawning - that were my methods of apologizing when there was no need to apologize. For example for asserting myself. Also, I tried hard not to make any mistake, so that I do not have to apologize in the first place - and this created a series of pre-emptive, rigid rules - which mostly ended up as avoidance, not taking risks, not taking action, being immobile, not taking initiates and let other people to decide. This desire not to hurt someone or cause damage made me ruminate a lot, have worry loops and tried to solve the unsolvable in my head - which ended up as irrational guilt for even considering any action.
Then criticism hurt me additionally - since anything that I did was a result of complex planning and nitpicking, painstakingly detailed observation of my moves and how I act - that I do not come off as arrogant or rude or make mistake. And of course, people still criticized anyway - or ignored me - since it is impossible to please everyone.
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(23.6.2022)
"Brutal and direct honesty equals in my book to be assertiveness. " Yeah, with trauma and social anxiety issues - this part was fused in my mind with being bad and evil person. I was made to believe that I have only two option to deal with unreasonable and toxic people: 1) to throw explosions, drama, hysteria and temper tantrums OR 2) to fawn, to self-censor, to be silent, to be quiet and passive and never express my opinion. There was no third option available. It is only a few months ago that I realized that I can use mute and block option on Twitter. I repeated the same pattern in real life: Before learning about codependency and channels such as Lisa Romano - I was convinced that I must accept and welcome all people - especially if they are rude - and if I block them - than somehow I am not worthy, I am weak or wrong for doing that. That is the message I received through narcissistic invalidation and that become my auto-pilot.
Well there is third option - I can simply say "I disagree with you". Until I learned about Complex Trauma and toxic people - I was unaware that I can be honest and authentic and speak the truth - voice out the elephant in the room, something that everyone else ignores and if I speak it out it will be brutal. I never knew that being silent and not speaking the truth I am enabling the abuse and toxic people in their manipulation. Instead I was convinced that I must be good and nice and spare other people's feelings.
Speaking the truth is not crime. When this truth is connected with their wrongdoings, what I perceive as transgression - if they accuse me of something I did not do - I would shut up and try not to rock the boat. I see now that in such cases - I have to be brutal by being honest with them. It is the only way to clear up the mess and disorder.
The complex part is that certain people love drama and endless arguments - so it is not about drama. It is about being laser sharp correct, and that its goal is to clear issues, and resolve conflict. Some people love conflict and like to keep conflict ongoing. This is also lesson that I learn thanks to channels like Lisa Romano. I did not know that fact - I was convinced that all people are good, that they have no intent of manipulating and exploiting others. So that would also prevent me from being brutal and honest - since I was convinced that someone hysterical and unreasonable and antagonistic has good intentions behind it. They don't. There are people who have no good intentions, only evil.
CBT is messing this up with socially anxious people. CBT claims that if we have social anxiety and feel "evil" out there - when people are rude and aggressive - that this is our illusion and that we must reject our instincts and thoughts as hallucination. I followed their advice (which is in all self help books about social anxiety) - and I ended up with people pleasing and fawning - since I had no inner protection against manipulation and mistreatment. I made myself convinced that I am hallucinating the abuse and that I am the problem, as CBT instructs socially anxious people.
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Agree - we have to be objective, transparent and scientist and seek the truth. To be healthy that ought to be our goal in life.
What you are basically telling is that we need to be scientists in everything - rather than going with our beliefs. That we are objective, transparent, honest - which may include pointing out someone's immoral behaviour such as lieing. We will have issue with this if we grew up in toxic environment with relentless criticism 24/7 and being exposed to adult hysteria - and now as adults we do not want to hurt someone's feelings by being honest with them - aka codependency.
Many people are not aware that our personalities are made by reaction to negative and traumatic events in our life - we choose our decisions based on set of rules that were shaped by being in contact with toxic people. If there was someone whom we could not create healthy retort, healthy defense - we will default to unhealthy mechanisms later in life - such as not being able to discern toxic people, nor being able to voice out the elephant in the room: like for example someone being a liar. Instead our belief will be that we are evil for being brutally honest - and that will stop us to be honest and transparent. And I see that predatory personalities are attracted to people with codependency issues. So you are correct - we will be taken advantage when we have no ability to speak the truth.
And this is where it gets complex. Philosophically speaking - there is no truth. Absolute truth does not exist. Unless unkind or violent - anything else goes. That is what you perceive as "feminism" and "emotionalism" - society is keep getting more and more free. It is part of evolution. Our behaviour and thinking is becoming more and more free - and this is causing disorder in people who prefer order and truth. I would take this into consideration too - that 1) there is no truth and 2) society is becoming free, with time
Check this out: "In epistemology, the Münchhausen trilemma, also commonly known as the Agrippan trilemma, is a thought experiment intended to demonstrate the theoretical impossibility of proving any truth, even in the fields of logic and mathematics, without appealing to accepted assumptions. Wikipedia"
What you define as "feminism" and "emotionalism" I think you are lumping two different elements into one. One element is freedom of expression and truth is like Einstein discovery relative - is simply depends from where you are having a standpoint, it will appear as truth to you (like that image of 6 and 9 upside down and persons on each end see different number). And another element is evil. There is evil element - I call it external factor. It is disorder. It is when people have no empathy and ability to discern right and wrong - when they are narcissistic and seek only their pleasure while other people are revolving around them to serve and admire him - since he is convinced in his own truth that he is the center of universe. Evil are predatory personalities - including Machiavellians - whom you describe in this video: "all they have to do is tell you what you want to hear. " That is definition of Machiavellian. Machiavellian is part of dark triad: narcissists, Machiavellians and psychopathy. Machiavellian will parasite over people's needs and exploit them - and run away and discard them after they are done.
So I would break apart "feminism" and "emotionalism" into Machiavellianism as the evil part. The healthy part I would leave as separate.
Usually when we are convinced in our own truth - we create delusions and then we will perceive as threat anything that is opposite from our own truth even though it is not realistically evil nor dangerous.
"The belief that one's own view of reality is the only reality is the most dangerous of all delusions." Paul Watzlawick
So in this sense, even people who "seek law and order" - can also have their evil part - Machiavellianism inside them, too.
If we do not want to be taken advantage of we need to be aware of Machiavellianism and to speak our objective facts, which we believe are our truth. Machiavellianists, narcissist, psychopaths - they hate objective facts because it exposed their web of lies. It also exposes their weaknesses and they perceive this as deep injury and they perceive the truth as invalidation. They are highly depended on chaotic emotions such as greed and instant pleasure but they cover it up through exploiting others wearing a mask of someone who helps with your needs.
In general, this is important topic and great that you talk about it. Without information about toxic people and education how to defend ourselves - we are blind, we do not see what is going on in life and we can get hurt and taken advantage - over and over again.
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Without knowing it, this is very important subject for people dealing with social anxiety. With fears stemming from trauma, it is easy to confuse honesty with being evil. And this confusion gets people stuck in unhealthy anxious behaviour such as fawning and self-censorship.
When confused about being direct and to avoid ethical rudeness, this is check, to test our "truth": "Honesty without kindness is cruelty. Kindness without honesty is manipulation."
People in general prefer comforting lies than brutal truth. Politicians exploit this fact. And if we had traumatic experiences such as brutal criticism, we will end up generalizing the opposite - that all people cannot handle the truth and that they will attack you if you speak it.
"There are people out there who want the truth. They don't mind if you show a little bit of aggressive nature and point that out. It just says you are enthusiastic in your belief about your product and service." Yeah! I love this, amazing.
"No one deserves success more than good people" This is good point- nice guys finish last because we lack this aggression part - since we were traumatized into believing that speaking the truth is equal to being an evil person.
This works not only for selling product or service - this is helpful for anything in social life, including searching a new job. When we have to have courage to apply and go to interview.
If we are having mentality that speaking the truth is being bad and evil, we will sell ourselves short - and we will finish last. While less intelligent people will succeed - and we will not know why - since we done everything by the book: being nice and look not to rock the boat.
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When we understand Jung's Shadow - we will realize that we do not need to do anything. That desire to improve has lead to social anxiety. We and society have prune off ourselves to short, we cut parts of ourselves that we thought were not acceptable by society - and now we experience social anxiety since we do not have those parts anymore.
For example - we want to reject and destroy our speaking - without realizing that we are telling ourselves that we must be perfect in order to be accepted by ourselves and others.
That is hamster wheel chase for perfectionism - and it will lead to more anxiety.
"Wholeness is not achieved by cutting off a portion of one's being, but by integration of the contraries." Carl Jung
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"Not every child lives in a poor environment with social anxiety" That is true, however poverty is linked to higher chances to develop mental issues.
"Also there is people with Social Anxiety Disorder that weren't abused" 1) social anxiety disorder is not the same as social anxiety. Social anxiety disorder is linked to Paranoid Delusional Disorder - where you are afraid of safe situations and safe people. The official medical community hides this fact and thus many people with social anxiety issues got misdiagnosed and get wrong treatment (they have been told that their anxiety is a hallucination and that there are no toxic people out there).
2) abused - this means being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7. In social anxiety it is about being exposed to be "good". It is similar process to "A Clockwork Orange" with Ludovico technique - where you are forced to be good. That creates social anxiety - since you are made to believe that certain aspects of your behaviour and actions are evil and bad. For example, expressing yourself freely and expressing doubts about something or someone, or disagreeing with someone. Socially anxious people are made believe in guilt, guilt is used for control of their behaviour (usually through bullying) and this created social anxiety. Now you have parts of your personality chopped off and rejected and locked away.
The more we are aware to retrieve parts of our right to make mistake, to be free, to express ourselves freely - the less there will be anxiety.
Social anxiety is inability to construct your social life. You miss part of your persona to make decision where to go in life and how to respond to difficult, toxic people and strange and unknown and embarrassing social situations. We were simply made to believe that we must be perfect and good and without mistakes - and that is abuse, trauma.
We were traumatized to believe that parts of ourselves that are good - we were made to believe that these are very bad and evil. And now we live with social anxiety - because we miss those parts to handle social life and interactions with people.
With social anxiety we are convinced - traumatized - hypnotized - instructed to believe that we must not make fool out of ourselves. And if we do something foolish we feel excruciating shame and guilt.
In the same time, we define certain helpful social actions such as talking as "arrogance" - and we reject talking as option.
We label "retort" as being annoying and irritating - so we say nothing.
We label "our brutal truth" as "hurting someone's feelings" so we endure abuse and keep toxic people feeling entitled - never voicing out the elephant in the room, something that is obvious and what they do wrong.
We label "looking good" as "being idiot" so we never bring attention to ourselves. etc. We have bunch of labels and prejudgments about normal social aspects to be demonized - and we end up with social anxiety as sanitized, good, nice version of ourselves - full of hypervigilance and fears.
"It is inhuman to be totally good as it is to be totally evil." Anthony Burgess
"The more you deliberately seek happiness the more sure you are not to find it." Carl Jung
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" Like you don't treat your family and friends the way they treat you." That is the key. When it happens - you do not know you are being treated. For you, from your perspective that is reality.
And you end up traumatized. Being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria - this causes brain injury, it groves into your body and trauma gets stuck in body. We are set up to experience social life painful.
Then we simply wait for bully event to happen - and avoidance is triggered.
Then we experience it as social anxiety later on. We do not know what is happening. We think we have social anxiety- while in reality we are going through trauma - dysregulation. It is shown in Polyvagal theory chart. We do not experience it as trauma at all. From our perspective - we think we are weird and we try to do something about it - usually making it worse. We try to worry, we try to solve the unsolvable, we end up with hypervigilance, with intrusive thoughts that do not feel intrusive - we are triggered by similar events from trauma (yelling, screaming) or flashbacks. And we have no idea that we are triggered at all. IT just feels natural to feel scary before social events, during or afterwards. And then CBT explains that we are hallucinating it.
Social anxiety is ability to sniff out abusers. The trauma and invalidation did not destroy us - instead it made us into super-power mind that has ability to detect fake people, people with fake persona - we feel fear from them. And we are programmed to believe it is all our fault - that social anxiety is problem.. It is not.
We are programmed to believe we did not have trauma - since it is like being in the water all the time - and then someone says how is water - and you do not know what he means - since you are in the water all the time- you never experienced not being in the water - so in the same way trauma is something we do not believe. We refuse to accept that we experienced dysfunction in our safe home. And we think that we must be mad at our environment because of it. That is not true. We can accept trauma as life experience - and we now have chance to turn trauma into golden experience.
Social anxiety will give us ability to be social. Social anxiety is not trauma - social anxiety is force and path inside us to build social life. Anything that we lack now - social anxiety got it covered. We simply have to look at social anxiety from different point of view.
With fears we think we cannot handle life and people - but social anxiety is actually guide that helps us to to exactly that - that we built better life than today.
"We cannot change anything unless we accept it. Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses." Carl Jung
“The only cure for love, is love.” ― T. Scott McLeod
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(24.6.2022)
"You have a version of yourself in your head and if you're not matched to that you'll just keep going back to it. You have to change that internalized version that you've got of yourself."Our moral judgements of who we are are doing all the damage.We over-prune ourselves and then try to prune even more when we face reality - fake people who are not so much moral at all.
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"Narcissists are extremely sensitive people and will lash out at the smallest criticisms" Yep! Shared this on twitter, up to the point message.
From our codependent perspective, we see ourselves as weak - and then "strong" people feel very attractive to us. And this creates trauma bonding with fake people. There is nothing wrong with self confidence - and this is keeping narcissists locked in their delusional beliefs, beliefs that do not allow doubt.
They will tell us that we are snowflakes - we will feel ashamed. Yet in reality - they are true snowflakes - they are projecting their rejected parts that they hate inside them. On the other side we are ashamed of our good parts: being sensitive - and we hate it, we stifle it down. It is a perfect match in dysfunction and self hate. Narcissist on one side of spectrum and victim role of codependency on the other side of the same spectrum of codependency.
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CPTSD was the solution for social anxiety that CBT labels as hallucination and delusions.
"So under certain circumstances there should be fear and anxiety. But when I have this anxiety when there's no immediate threat, what is that about? It's not a response to anything external. It is the embedded anxiety that I developed as a child"
I would challenge this part - "external" With social anxiety - we are set up to be sensitive - when there is some "mental illness" behaviour from our surroundings: such as extreme criticism 24/7 and being exposed to adult hysteria. This is the same as not hugging a child when child cries. Child is being told that he is not able to make its own decisions and that he must depend on authority to approve and validate - but in the same time, this approval and validation will never come as approval and validation but as nagging, complaining and criticism of mistakes, flaws and ignorance. It is double bind situation - where any action is labeled as wrong by external factor - someone outside of ourselves - which we internalize as toxic shame, self blame.
So what happen next is interesting. We are being instructed how to manage life (which is unhealthy from Piaget view - since we are not allowed to play and to discover it for ourselves) - we are being instructed step by step what is wrong- In this abuse process - which is complex trauma - we also label and define certain aspects of ourselves as bad and negative. And then this is stifled down and locked away - it goes into Jung's shadow - it is all the things that are not allowed.
So we have moral and ethics imposed by criticism and complaining - which eradicates and sanitizes even part of ourselves that are good - and these parts are social parts. Imagine our persona being Sandra Bernhard. Or Allen Ginsberg. Or Kurt Cobain. We have this abrasive, haughty, bold way of speaking, without shame, without need to hide vulnerabilities, that other people may find irritating or threatening or boring or stupid or wrong. And we are traumatized into hiding these parts of ourselves. Later on in life - we end up with social anxiety - because good parts of ourselves are sentenced to jail. We lack our parts of persona that would handle social life. It is locked away. It is toxically ashamed from coming up. We lack parts of ourselves that would be able to say "Who cares" and really not care. And now we are stuck with high moral version of ourselves that does not allow authenticity and honesty - and where being honest is labeled as arrogant - so we do not talk. We are left with anxiety that shuts us up, self-censor ourselves.
So socially anxious people will find that their social anxiety will sooth as soon as they allow naughty and wrongly accused parts of themselves free. When we are no longer afraid of exposing ourselves, being vulnerable. Like Sandra's movie from 1990 "Without You I'm Nothing ". If we are not able to retrieve all these parts - we might get stuck like Kurt - where he extracted his persona of being childish and explosive - however he obviously kept part of himself buried - and he did say "I hate myself and want to die". There were locked parts of himself that he rejected and he was not able to express them and integrate in everyday life.
This is where I go with "external factor". Anxiety is not individual thing. Especially not social anxiety, Social anxiety could be Rosetta stone - that gives mentors and mental health workers a translation about what is anxiety. If we see anxiety as communication method from our body, chunk of ice that is beneath the surface and we cannot talk with it directly - we can observe anxiety as voice, as a way of talking with autonomous parts of ourselves. So in a way if we were Kurt, our anxiety would be voice from good parts of ourselves that are locked in shadow prison that want to go free - since we need these parts in our logic life - in order to live full happy life - without suicidal ideations.
In 2016 sci fi movie called "Arrival", "Louise Banks, a linguistics expert, along with her team, must interpret the language of aliens who have come to Earth in a mysterious spaceship." That is what we need to do - see anxiety as communication method with alien entity inside us - that wants to give us some important message.
CBT will instruct us that our anxiety is hallucination and that we ignore it or accept it but shift focus away from it. This is wrong approach. CBT tells us that anxiety is not external - that we are delusional and that we are inventing our trauma and abusive people - and that we can heal this by ABC Method - where they say, we will change abuse and control other people by changing our thoughts. Which is total insanity and delusional approach. In reality, there is external factor that is causing anxiety: 1) external factor of being traumatized in times when we were growing up and 2) fake, toxic people who are triggering our anxiety.
So if we were invalidated in childhood - we will sniff out the same abusive people as adults - and we will feel anxiety. Since we do not have healthy parts of ourselves to handle this anxiety in proper and functional manner - we will either react to toxic people or invite them in and form codependency relationships with them. In either case - there is reaction to external factor - people around us that are abusive, fake, narcissistic, psychopaths, sociopaths, parasites, predators, borderliners etc. We simply do not have our own inner parts that would help us solve difficult and strange problems in life. We are left with toxic shame to handle our life - and that is why we are experiencing anxiety.
Anxiety is product of disbalance of yin - yang. We were taught that only white part is allowed in life, and we tried to reject and discard the black part - and this is causing the anxiety. We need to integrate parts of ourselves back to daily life, parts that we wrongfully labeled as bad and black.
This is why criticism hurts in social anxiety - since we do not have parts of ourselves that would be self-advocacy - we turn to other people to guide us and define us. Then their words hurt and cause anxiety. If we had all parts of ourselves inside us, we would have intrinsic locus of control, with our full Persona and full Self - and we would not react to other people's nonsense. We would not be embarrassed nor hide flaws from others - we would not care what they approve nor disapprove.
"Not everybody is cookie-cutter. You just can't be. There are too many variables in life." — Sandra Bernhard
The first half of life is devoted to forming a healthy ego, the second half is going inward and letting go of it. Carl Jung
Persona, the mask or image we present to the world. Designed to make a particular impression on others, while conceiling our true nature. CARL JUNG
The more you deliberately seek happiness the more sure you are not to find it. Carl Jung
Wholeness is not achieved by cutting off a portion of one's being, but by integration of the contraries. Carl Jung
The reason for evil in the world is that people are not able to tell their stories. CARL JUNG
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"Love them both, they did their best to raise me, as broken as their own pasts were"
Yeah, when we accept that any trauma can be learning opportunity, stream of valuable data - that gives us instruction what we reject, what we approve and what we want in life and where to go - we will not hate anyone anymore. We will dislike their actions. We will disapprove their words. We will reject their proposals. We might even cut contact in order to save ourselves - but there will be no hate inside us.
Knowing your own darkness is the best method for dealing with the darkness of other people. CARL JUNG
The best political, social and spiritual work we can do is to withdraw the projection of our own shadow onto others. CARL JUNG
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"Drop your current story" We need our story. If we drop parts of ourselves - we will create anxiety and intrusive thoughts. That is actually how these currents ones spring up. We prune ourselves and reject parts of ourselves to me morally, ethically, good and nice person. We over-sanitize ourselves.
"Choose yourself" But there is no self. There is Persona. Our persona is shaped by our mistakes and criticism. Especially when there is trauma - we do not allow ourselves - we were traumatized not to love. So we rejected parts of ourselves and stifled them down into Shadow realm which is meant for violent behaviour.
Narcissism is not self love. Narcissism is rejecting all good and nice parts and forcing to be monster, as Jordan Peterson is instructing young men to show teeth and be monster. Narcissism has no connection with any kind of love - love is stifled down for them, they consciously hate parts of themselves that they label as sissy or feminine or weak or silent or nice or kind. Then they operate from being a scumbag. And we see results - and they appear as self-involved to us - which they are - but they are based on hate, hatred is their tyrannical government in their mind.
"Choose your real Self" Our real self cannot be chosen - it is simply naturally us. Intrusive thoughts are signal from our unconsciousness that we have stifled parts of our Self deep down and we keep it locked. We need to recognize what parts of ourselves have we convicted wrong into prison and let it out - similar to Mandela. We need to let our "terrorist" out - he was wrongly accused as terrorist.
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(filmboards)
Sandra bares it all - she exposes her vulnerabilities without fear - and thus shows us how to be confident. It is a learning experience. I've seen her first at MTV Europe when they showed clips from MTV USA - and she immediately sticks with you. She has strong character that is in the same time very gentle and warm and friendly. You feel like you are with a friend immediately, she draws you in. Someone with whom you can share deep secrets and the most superficial irrelevant trivia. All coupled up with humor and music - I think this movie probably influenced Seinfeld later on? She is like a muse - you get inspired by her for her being herself and accepting who she is, good and bad. At the end of movie she says that she thinks about us and she is brutally comic - if you feel alone, yeah you probably are. Her final message is that we find love that will last.
To anyone who is suffering with issues such as social anxiety and shyness and inhibitions - these are the parts you have suppressed inside you - parts that you label as boring or f word that was used at the end of movie by shy girl, we reject Sandra inside us - and in turn we turn anxious and afraid if people, love and life. We need Sandra inside us to be part of our lives. Without her we will be cripples. There are too many toxic people out there that we would not have energy to withstand or refute. In this way, Sandra Bernhard is our elixir, GPS that leads us to our own inner GPS.
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(25.6.2022)
Take your time. Be patient - I discovered Complex Trauma in 2021 and I painstakingly received information about it. I discovered about Gabor Mate thanks to a commentator on you tube - similar as we talk now. He pointed me to Gabor Mate and I found answers that I was looking for simply by reading his book and quotes on Google images.
We need push in the right direction - but we are the ones who must do the walking.
Trauma and anxiety are not easy and we cannot heal over night or at the press of a button. The world is full of narcissistic greedy self absorbed people - but there are people who care about you, and you are never alone.. The point of healing trauma is that you find that you have resources in yourself that will give you courage, motivation and advice to withstand and deal with anything in life, whatever life throws at us.
It may seem like sci-fi, but when we are stuck and unable to move and surrounded by toxic people and toxic environment - we really do have deep core of ourselves that can never be destroyed buried inside us, trapped in a cave. This part will help us find energy and resources to keep on going and believe in love that we currently cannot feel due to fears, pain and trauma.
The point of trauma healing is that we get those parts outside of cave. Similar to 2018's Tham Luang cave rescue.
In a way, The Cather in the rye was blocked by external events, and our kids ran over the cliff into the chasm. We are being explained that this way we will grow up and become adult - if we let go of our need to play and invent and think for ourselves. These are lies- we can be adult and responsible alongside our childish parts. So, now it is time to bring those kids back to the surface.
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(26.6.2022)
"You don't know what people are going through. You can't judge by the outside. The more you obey that still small voice, the more God can entrust you with. God knows where dear ends are, people who will waste our time."
CBT will explain to socially anxious people that their anxiety is hallucination and delusion. However with trauma and abuse that caused social anxiety in the first place, we have now ability to sniff out borderliners and narcissists easily, toxic people who will waster our time and chip off our mental health. Anxiety is voice from within, Freud and Jung talked about it. We can be scientists and put evidence at the test, be Sherlock Holmes and collect all the clues - because - toxic people follow certain patterns: they are too intrusive, toxically ashaming, controlling, with mood swings, blame-shifting all the time - not being one time event etc.
"The Holy Spirit is on the inside of each one of us. He's called our Helper, our Counselor, our Guide. The more sensitive we are to his whispers, what we're feeling, the promptings, the nudgings, the further we're going to go." Yep.
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(27.6.2022)
Shyness = feeling uncomfortable in social events but it wears off quickly once you are there. Social anxiety = fear of criticism and negative evaluation - it does not wear off with social events and you worry before and after event Social anxiety disorder = fear of safe people and safe events, where you know there is no one to judge you or criticize you - but you still believe they will harm you in some way or hate you - even though they are loving to you. This is connected to Paranoid Delusional disorder, 1% of people have it. Narcissistic disorder = you feel uncomfortable at what seems to you random social events and you do not realize due to egocentricity that you are rude to other people - and you feel uncomfortable when they alarm and alert you about your abusive behaviour that you explain as being macho, strong and correct. Autistic = you feel unwelcome in social situations and you do not realize this is because you do not smile back to people, nor you engage in social conversations and unwritten social norms, you are not aware these norms exist, you live in your own world.
All these groups will google their symptoms and google will diagnose them all with social anxiety disorder.
"We're all prone to see through eyes of the past and call it reality" What CBT says about meeting rude and critical people? Is it normal not to react to their unrealistic demands in fear and automatically go along with their requests? If you are being told to shock another person with electrical current, will you listen to your social discomfort and refuse to do it - or will you label your social anxiety as hallucination and past programming and listen to authority?
There are psychopaths out there. There are predatory personalities out there. There are narcissists out there. If we ignore our natural instincts - we will stay trapped in relationships with people like Amber, and if we are in Johnny Depp's shoes, if we listen to CBT, we would stay in abuse and we would label our reactions to abuse as hallucination and delusion.
Obvious solution is to be scientist - and to evaluate facts and see if the anxiety we feel is message that something is wrong. Can we become Sherlock Holmes and pick up the clues to see what is reality? IF someone is manipulative - they will never state their true intentions. Our only weapon against such people is our sixth sense.
Manipulative, toxic people can makes us weaker, prone to illness and less successful - because they trigger us into amygdala hijacking and our cortex brain is offline when they employ toxic shaming, fusing our mistakes with our character.
If we fight with something, we will make it stronger. "What you resist, persist" JUNG
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Shyness = feeling social anxiety symptoms but it wears off quickly once you face social event. Social anxiety = feeling social anxiety symptoms but it does not wear off and you worry before and after. Social Anxiety Disorder = connected to Paranoid Delusional Disorder where you fear safe people and safe events even though you know they are safe. 1% of people suffer from it. Narcissistic disorder = you feel what you describe as social anxiety at what seems to you as random event - but you do not realize that you are being rude to other people. You explain/justify your rudeness as being macho, strong, social, normal, better, superior to others and others are not important to you at all due to egocentricity. Autistic = you notice people are rude to you, but you are unable to realize that you are ignoring unwritten social rules and norms such as saying Hi back when they welcome you.
All these groups google their symptoms - and they get directed to social anxiety disorder - which is intended for 1% of people.
Social anxiety is not illness. It is natural reaction to toxic and manipulative people. You have nothing to heal - except trauma - called Complex Trauma. Complex Trauma is healed with self acceptance and validation. Also you learn about Jung Shadow, False Self, Self, Persona - and then you realize there is hidden world out there that you were not aware of it before - so you can shift your thinking, mentality to more balanced one.
Imagine if you are in a room with serial killer. If you ignore your natural symptoms of anxiety - you would stay with that dangerous person. Anxiety is message for us - we need to hear and listen to it.
"Pursue activity" If you have trauma - being criticized relentlessly 24/7 and being exposed to adult hysteria during growing up - any activity will feel scary - since you are aware that there are manipulative and abusive people out there and you can spot them easily now.
"Friend" People with social anxiety do not have friends since society labels their natural symptoms as hallucination and illness to cure.
"Free ourselves from social anxiety" Jung said: "What you resist, persist". If we self pathologize ourselves, we will create damage to our psyche.
"important for your career" With trauma we do not know what we want in life. This is due to toxic shame. So toxic shame is hallucination and something to cure - since it is foreign element inside us. Feeling danger is normal reaction that even animals have - without this ability we would not evolve - we would become extinct.
"My personality" Gabor Mate that our personalities are bunch of defense mechanisms. All people have this - it is not endemic to social anxiety. We are not freaks nor abnormal.
"What if they don't like me" This is not negative assumption. This is called External reference locus of control and it is part of Complex Trauma - where you are programmed to serve and be silent and believe other people are gods, while you are inept and inferior to them.
"Isolate" We isolate as reaction to trauma. Therefore isolation itself is not illness nor anything to cure. We need to heal trauma. IT is the same as if you think that it is abnormal to not move your broken hand - you can't - until the broken hand heals you must be at rest. Any movement will make even more damage. The immobility is not natural - but when the limb is broken - you need to heal it first and then move.
"Consequences" There are toxic people out there that will punish you if you make mistake. It is normal to feel fear from such monsters.
"Desensitize yourself" In Clockwork Orange (1971) we can see that desensitization will make you into philosophical zombies. Our quirks, perks, particularities are our personality. You cannot prune yourself off just to fit in into certain social group. Conformism, group think and herd mentality can easily end up as Milgram Experiment.
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Shyness = feeling social fears but they wear off as soon as you enter social event and you do not think about it ever again Social anxiety = feeling social fears due to fear of criticism and negative evaluations, and it does not wear off with social event - and you worry about it before, during and later on Social anxiety disorder = linked to Paranoid delusional disorder that infects 1% of people - where individuals with PDD feel social fears even with safe people and at safe place. There is psychological security - but they still feel social fears -even when they know there is no realistic danger. Narcissistic disorder = you feel what you describe yourself as social anxiety symptoms at random events, but you do not realize that you are being rude to people and these people simply warn and alert you about your abusive behaviour - and you label their warnings as social anxiety. You label your rudeness and abuse as being macho, strong, social, open, friendly, better, superior to others, and you see others as background characters in your life that play bit roles in it. Autistic = you feel fear at work - but you do not realize that there are unwritten social norms - such as saying Hi back when you are being greeted - and you do not understand why are people grumpy and rude to you - because you live in your own world.
Now all these different groups will google their symptoms - and they will be misdiagnosed to have social anxiety disorder - a hallucination. That is the danger of psychiatry - when you start to fix something that is not broken.
"CBT received support" Because socially anxious people are socially anxious so they try not to annoy or irritate the authority - so they will fake their true feelings to appease others and quit something that is not working without making a lot of fuss about it.
"CBT is used to treat wide areas" Yep. CBT is band aid therapy. It is intended to quickly defuse unknown psychological issue - and it ought not to last longer than few days. CBT is default therapy for calming down - similar to 1950s lobotomy - where you silent off part of your brain that is creating arousal. However we cannot work as human being with some normal and healthy parts of ourselves suppressed. If we never feel fear - we would be easily swindled and taken advantage of.
"Research study" You keep talking about research as if it is not prone to errors and observation effect. Marketing can influence result as well. We live in deceptive narcissistic world full of greed and hidden agenda, altruistic narcissists that appear as help but they exploit easy targets = people in need for help.
"Exposure" You will simply become pushover at the end of it. You will develop fawning techniques and people will exploit you and take advantage of you. You will replace safety mechanisms with fawning response to stress.
"Cognitive restructuring, identify thoughts" If we stop for a minute - we will realize that there is particular phenomena called Self-absorption paradox: The self-absorption paradox describes the contradictory association whereby higher levels of self-awareness are simultaneously associated with higher levels of psychological distress and with psychological well-being. Wikipedia Also, Jung said: "What you resist, persist" We will make our fears stronger if we nitpick them and analyze them. Analysis = paralysis. And - what about "normal" people without social anxiety - do they spend their time watching over their thoughts? How come they succeed at being social without actually monitoring their thoughts?
"I'll never find partner and I will end up alone" That is not social anxiety. Social anxiety is fear of criticism and negative evaluation. It may be fear of evaluation of neighbours for you being alone and without partner. Social anxiety is when you fear being yelled at and screamed at, experiencing someone throwing temper tantrums and someone who accuse you of something you did not do - but they also throw toxic shame about your mistakes so you end up self-censoring yourself. Especially when CBT instructed you to label your reaction to abusive person as illness - so instead of retorting to abusive person - you self pathologize your own natural reactions and you end up being people pleaser and pushover. Social anxiety stems from Complex Trauma - it is being exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria when child brain was developing and starting to develop its persona - now it is in arrested development - and parts of persona that are needed for social life are suppressed and locked away.
"Attention training - spend less time focusing internally when you are anxious and more time focusing externally" This is not social anxiety. Horrid advice. People with social anxiety are already focused on other people too much. They have external reference locus of control due to toxic shame and trauma - so they are already zoomed into other people, microscopically. Focusing even more than that is nonsense and it can cause psychological damage. CBT is wrong therapy for socially anxious. CBT was intended for criminally insane and delusional patients - it is detrimental for people facing toxic people, abuse and gaslighting from narcissistic people.
ACT is CBT. Humanistic therapies are the only workable solution to social anxiety. Social anxiety by definition is fear of criticism and negative evaluation. So it does not take Einstein to connect the dots and figure out that the only strategy that socially anxious person needs it to learn and educate about toxic people. How to recognize toxic people, pick up red flags-
Strategies how to retort to difficult person in functional, proper and healthy manner. People with social anxiety do not know how to react and deal with temper tantrums and rude and aggressive people - since they are traumatized - toxic people caused their social anxiety in the first place. So it would be helpful if socially anxious people are taught how to respond to yelling, screaming. Now here it becomes complex - since if you start to retort to abusive people - you might get punished - and often enough narcissistic people feel injured when they loose their supply. They might get you fired. So it is not advisable to confront people if you do not have money. Therefore, socio economic status is also one important element in dealing with social anxiety.
I see social anxiety as message from within, as Jung and Freud talked to us. It tries to tell us that as kids we never developed Persona and Self - since parts of our behaviour was labelled as evil and wrong - and now we are missing those parts to handle social life. Anxiety is effect of not having Yin Yang balance inside our mind - we only have logical, pruned version of our mind, where we are ethical and morally just - and we do not have parts of ourselves that will allow ourselves to stand up for ourselves without feeling guilty about it. Socially anxious people will often do the most correct and right thing in social situations - and still end up with irrational guilt. This is because of suppressed parts of our Persona and Self are stifled down. We label being talkative as being arrogant - as we were programmed to believe by toxic people.
Social anxiety is evolution - we were traumatized by toxic people - now we have intelligence and sensitivity to sniff out difficult and rude people much more easily than others who appear "confident" and without social anxiety. They simply did not encounter narcissists or they are not aware of them so they are being manipulated by parasites - which will come to their senses later on in life when its too late - when they end up with illnesses due to long term exposure to narcissistic abuse.
With CBT and self help books we never learn important concepts such as Polyvagal theory - which states that fears and panic that we feel are natural reaction to abnormal situations, abnormal people and abnormal events - and our cortex brain is shut down - and our amygdala gets hijacked. From uneducated socially anxious mind - we self blame ourselves and CBT instructs us to over-prune ourselves and ignore the abuse and abusive people. Self pathology is detrimental.
If Johnny Depp listened to CBT, he would stay in relationship with Amber, and he would be broke now, accused as abuser, without money and career. Depp would simply label his natural reaction to Amber as hallucination - instead of stepping out of Karpman Drama Triangle.
Social anxiety is voice within that warns and alert us, like smoke detector. And now - it is not broken, it works fine. It signals us that we experienced trauma - and now we are aware of danger - and we are missing parts of our personality, character to be full person who can handle difficult people and difficult and unknown situations in life.
Desensitization of our fears will turn us into philosophical zombie, pushover - similar to the movie Clockwork Orange where the main character is cured with Ludovico Method (CBT) - and ends up immobile and passive to abuse and toxic people. We need our quirks, perks and particularities to deal with life. Our suppressing of our natural reactions which are not violent nor unkind will cause us feel distress - which google and CBT will label and misdiagnose as disorder.
The world is full of misinformation and deception - Descartes taught us to doubt everything and everyone - even our own thoughts. And use facts, objectivity and transparency to realize what is the truth. Be Sherlock Holmes and scientist - and seek what is real. If we are listening to others to explain us what we should be - we are giving up our ability to face life and make our own decisions.
Any attempt to dictate what thoughts, feelings and sensations are proper or improper creates a breeding ground for guilt and shame. Peter Levine
What we resist, persist. JUNG
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Shyness = feeling social fears at social event but fears very soon wear off. Social anxiety = feeling social fears all the time and it is connected to Complex Trauma Social anxiety disorder = feeling social fears even with safe people and at psychological safety environment. 1% of people suffer from it, and it is connected to Paranoid Delusional Disorder. Narcissistic disorder = when you feel social fears as reaction to what appears to you random events and with random people - but in reality you do not realize you are being rude to others and they are simply reacting to your abuse. From your egocentric point you believe that your rudeness is being macho, social, friendly, strong, competent, superior - while other people are background characters and you cannot connect with inferior low beings since they are unworthy of your grandiosity Autistic = you feel fear at work from people - but you do not realize you are ignoring unwritten social norms such as saying Hi back to people when they greet you. From your point, you only see your own world, and other people are mere shadows and non important.
All these will google their social anxiety symptoms and google will misdiagnose them with social anxiety disorder. They will all receive wrong instruction, wrong explanations, wrong therapy.
"talking about me" That is not social anxiety. Social anxiety is being afraid of being yelled at, experiencing inappropriate anger, violence, mocking, toxic shaming, mood swings, temper tantrums, rejection and rudeness from others, especially when you need them due to information from them - you need something from them - help, service, guidance - but they are abusive and rude to you. That is social anxiety.
Being concerned about clothes is mild form of shyness.
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"most of people are concerned about themselves, not others" That is not true. There are predatory personalities who are very much concerned about their targets.
"they are too busy judging themselves" Yet, we have bunch of people who are hiding their deficiencies by bullying and projecting onto others. What then?
"spotlight effect" Social anxiety and spotlight effect are not one and the same. They may overlap but they are not equal conditions. Social anxiety is being afraid of negative evaluation and criticism, which stems from Complex Trauma - where social anxiety belongs. IT is ability to detect fake, abusive, manipulative people much more easily than common folks.
Social anxiety is being afraid of being yelled at, put down, attacked, screamed at, exposed to temper tantrum - not knowing how to react to difficult and rude people in proper and functional manner.
Due to toxic shame, socially anxious people feel guilt - which was implanted by toxic people.
So socially anxious people will feel fears and guilt even when they do all the correct things in social life. This is because parts of our Persona and Self were ashamed when we were growing up - and we developed False Self - rigid non flexible toxically ashamed Persona - that is unable to react and respond and communicate with other people. There is fear and panic since we detect fake people easily, but there is also not knowing how to retort to difficult, narcissistic people. Why we never hear advice how to deal with critical people - where fear of criticism is by definition social anxiety.
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Shyness = feeling social fears at social event but fears very soon wear off. Social anxiety = feeling social fears all the time and it is connected to Complex Trauma Social anxiety disorder = feeling social fears even with safe people and at psychological safety environment. 1% of people suffer from it, and it is connected to Paranoid Delusional Disorder. Narcissistic disorder = when you feel social fears as reaction to what appears to you random events and with random people - but in reality you do not realize you are being rude to others and they are simply reacting to your abuse. From your egocentric point you believe that your rudeness is being macho, social, friendly, strong, competent, superior - while other people are background characters and you cannot connect with inferior low beings since they are unworthy of your grandiosity Autistic = you feel fear at work from people - but you do not realize you are ignoring unwritten social norms such as saying Hi back to people when they greet you. From your point, you only see your own world, and other people are mere shadows and non important.
All these will google their social anxiety symptoms and google will misdiagnose them with social anxiety disorder. They will all receive wrong instruction, wrong explanations, wrong therapy.
"absence of actual threat" Socially anxious people feel guilt when there is actual threat in social situations: people who are not openly violent, but manipulative and toxic.
"Get out of house more" You will simply add more fears to the list. Social anxiety is being aware of danger. Exposure will help when we learn that fears are real - we detect fake people - and we need to learn how to handle them in proper and functional manner. Social anxiety is not phobia. Phobia gets cured with repeated exposure. What we deal here is anxiety - it is unknown fear of something dangerous. So - instead of walking and smiling - we can become scientist and Sherlock Holmes and pick up clues - are other people dangerous? Are they toxic? Manipulative?
"Good morning back" It is part of Jung Persona. We develop reaction to other people - greeting is one of them. Without them we would be philosophical zombie - machine without feelings and interests, no quirks, perks and particularities. With social anxiety due to trauma we suppress parts related to social situations of our Persona - and we do not know how to handle social life.
Social anxiety is being afraid of being yelled at, put down, attacked, screamed at, exposed to temper tantrum - not knowing how to react to difficult and rude people in proper and functional manner.
"Fear of approaching people" But what you want? What you want from life. With trauma and toxic shame - we do not have Self inside - and we do not know what we like, We only know what we dislike and we end up with external reference locus of control - where we see other people as gods and we abdicate our power to make decisions and stand up for what we value as good. It is not natural to be friendly to everyone. If Johnny Depp decided to be friendly to Amber even after her abuse - he would be broke now, labeled as abuser, without money and career. There are toxic people out there and it is ok to focus on good people and ignore the bad ones. Manipulative people will appear as false friends to us - it is good to be aware of such parasites. Awareness of difficult people and Machiavellians is not illness. There is nothing to cure here. We suffer from trauma symptoms - that needs to be healed.
"What we resist, persist." JUNG
External reference locus of control - is caused by our toxic shame (deep core belief that we are inept, weird) and we see other people as competent and better- this mindset will attract toxic people into our life and they will present themselves as good and nice - but they will toxically ashame us all the time and exploit us.
"practice and develop social skills" With social anxiety we already have skills: we have ability of empathy and put ourselves in social situations. This means we overcome Piaget's egocentrical stage of development - and this means we have superior social skills that 80% of people do not have. If we self-pathologize ourselves we will develop toxic shame.
"Constant state of fear" is hyper vigilance. Check out google image for Polyvagal theory. When we are dysregulated (triggered) we are in state of fear.. IT is normal reaction to abnormal people, abnormal situations and abnormal events.
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Let's be less egocentric and always try to see anything in life from more than one angle. So - people pleasing is not always being liar. IT is also: People pleasing is response, reaction to trauma. Someone aggressive, rude and untreated mentally ill. People pleasing is diplomatic skill - to keep peace with different personalities. People pleasing is part of Jung Persona. It helps us to communicate with different people. Think of it like Star Trek communication universal translator. You adjust your behaviour and words to current situation and person-people you are surrounded with. If you are not able to do this, you will become autistic and be unable to form secure attachments with others. If you are Putin and demand to speak only in Russian, you will soon start to believe that Ukraine is enemy and you must destroy it. So being trapped in your own world leads to disorder. This does not mean not to believe in yourself and stand up for your truth. We can express our truth without hysteria, without drama, without explosions, without isolation and without withdrawal.
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Shyness = feeling social fears at social event but fears very soon wear off. Social anxiety = feeling social fears all the time and it is connected to Complex Trauma Social anxiety disorder = feeling social fears even with safe people and at psychological safety environment. 1% of people suffer from it, and it is connected to Paranoid Delusional Disorder. Narcissistic disorder = when you feel social fears as reaction to what appears to you random events and with random people - but in reality you do not realize you are being rude to others and they are simply reacting to your abuse. From your egocentric point you believe that your rudeness is being macho, social, friendly, strong, competent, superior - while other people are background characters and you cannot connect with inferior low beings since they are unworthy of your grandiosity Autistic = you feel fear at work from people - but you do not realize you are ignoring unwritten social norms such as saying Hi back to people when they greet you. From your point, you only see your own world, and other people are mere shadows and non important.
All these will google their social anxiety symptoms and google will misdiagnose them with social anxiety disorder. They will all receive wrong instruction, wrong explanations, wrong therapy.
CBT lumps all these different phenomena in one entity, good and bad - and treats it like it is criminally insane. Thus CBT is doing incredible damage to people who feel social fears. It is extremely suspicious that traits and characteristic as fused and mashed. So now we have people who self diagnose themselves and google misdiagnose them, too and CBT does not help - it joins into hysteria.
Social anxiety is fear of criticism and negative evaluation. Social anxiety is not being afraid of what to wear.
I see our social fears as natural evolution. Indigo children - being sensitive and intelligent enough to detect fake, dangerous, manipulative people. It is proof of Darwin evolution process where we as human species developed thorns such as we see in roses.
I see anxiety more from Jung and Freud perspective - when unconsciousness is autonomous part of our mind - that we cannot control at least not directly - and that is good - because if there is disbalance, anxiety will warn us that something is wrong.
IF we suppressed parts of our persona related to social life - we will be unable to respond and communicate with people - since we will not have social persona parts inside us. Toxic people, trauma and our own toxic shame rules and obligations stifle and over-prune our persona - and we end up without knowing how to handle people.
CBT never suppose that fears are coming from real toxic and abusive people. We are not told how to handle difficult and rude people in proper and functional, healthy manner. We are not explained that we are free to choose our reactions - because when we are not allowed to choose, we cease to be a man.
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What we resist, persist. JUNG
But also, what we ignore, festers. ME
Therefore - there is external factor out there. Evil. Something that is chaos, it has its own autonomous goal - away from reasonable human standards and good will. It is related more to abuse and exploitation and manipulation, hidden as help, service and solution to problems that we seek to solve such as being lonely or needy. If we self pathologize ourselves and self blame ourselves - such as thinking our mind is the cause of toxic people - we are delusional. Our minds cannot control other people. We can speak out our truth - and toxic people hate truth, authenticity, being honest, objectivity, facts. Toxic people like censorship and obedience. We can express ourselves our opinion and our stance without wars, explosions, drama, avoidance, withdrawal or isolation.
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If Johnny Depp done all these tips, he would be stuck with Amber. He would end up with being labelled as abuser, he would be without money and lost his carreer.
Sometimes our anxiety is reaction to real toxic abusive people. We can actually be scientist, Sherlock Holmes and pick up the clues, seek facts, learn about narcissistic abuse, recognize red flags how to detect toxic people and be objective about our environment.
I trust our anxiety is ability to detect fake toxic people.
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Let's be less egocentric and always try to see anything that comes in our life from more than one angle. Always try to gather more information and evidence and listen to information that causes cognitive dissonance inside you (you label it quickly as nonsense or fake).
That way we will counter our Confirmation bias, filter that all people have that traps us away from true reality. We have black transparent veil over our face and eyes that protects us from seeing true reality. Plato talked about this - Plato's cave where we see shadows on the wall and we are convinced that this is reality.
So - consider that fake front or people pleasing is not always being "liar".
It is also: Fake front/People pleasing is response, reaction to trauma. Someone aggressive, rude and untreated mentally ill. People pleasing is diplomatic skill - to keep peace with different personalities. People pleasing is part of Jung Persona. It helps us to communicate with different people. Think of it like Star Trek communication universal translator. You adjust your behaviour and words to current situation and person-people you are surrounded with. If you are not able to do this, you will become autistic and be unable to form secure attachments with others. Fake front is ability that you imagine yourself in shoes of other person and you are able to see world from their angle. This is not being egocentric. Piaget discovered that during growing up we pass through developmental phases. The last phase is overcoming egocentricity. Many people are stuck at this stage and this is causing them a lot of confusion in life - since they are unable to understand people, events, situations. In life we will always be confronted with unknown, vague, strange, difficult situations where we will not know what to do about it.
If you are Putin and demand to speak only in Russian, you will soon start to believe that Ukraine is enemy and you must destroy it. So being trapped in your own world leads to disorder. Thermodynamic law in physics says that isolated elements are prone to distortion. We need ability to put ourselves in other people shoes. Empathy is not weakness, it is power. This ability to allow our self to be fake and enter shoes of other people does not mean not to believe in yourself and that you are not allowed to stand up for your truth.
We can express our truth without hysteria, without drama, without explosions, without isolation and without withdrawal.
The more trauma and horrible things we went through - will build up inside us - we will experience it as pain and horror. But if we step back and see the whole picture - we will see Darwinist evolution in action. Like roses that developed thorns - we are getting more aware as human beings of horrific situations - to such level that we are able to detect it in its infancy. Butterfly effect tells us that chaos starts with butterfly flapping its wing. We are able to see what will start and turn later on into chaos. That is what we experience as anxiety.
We live in deceptive world that tries to stifle down our voice inside that tries to speak to us. Anxiety is part of that voice. When we are highly aware of suffering and pain - we will naturally try to build environment without abuse and trauma - and thus we will develop Jung Persona that is "people pleaser".
We need Persona (mask). Without it we would not be able to communicate with people. “I am always saying ‘Glad to’ve met you’ to somebody I’m not at all glad I met. If you want to stay alive, you have to say that stuff, though.” J. D. Salinger, The Catcher in the Rye (1951)
We can actually incorporate our "real" self with our mask. That is possible to do. Think of Persona as our obligations and rules and protocols that allow us to make connections with others.
The persona, for Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung, was the social face the individual presented to the world—"a kind of mask, designed on the one hand to make a definite impression upon others, and on the other to conceal the true nature of the individual." Wikipedia
Sometimes our true individual is annoying - and irritating. We would hurt someone if we curse a lot - simply because it feels good to us. So being real and true to yourself - is not always good. Sometimes we do not have our true self. Sometimes we have toxic shame inside us - and that toxic shame is imposter inside us- and we are convinced that this is our true self.
When there is trauma during growing up we throw away parts of our personality - and we try to be logical and adult - but without these parts we are not Self. Similar to the movie "Total Recall" (1990) - we program ourselves to forget our true persona. Later on in life - we will feel anxiety and find that we are unable to react to certain situations - because we are missing parts of our persona that are locked away. Society also program us to be obedient and nice - mixing word nice with being slave. What we need is total recall and remember who we are to be whole again. When we have all parts inside us we will calm and there is no amygdala hijacking and hypervigilance. We won't have toxic shame anymore and we will not have external reference locus of control (believing that other people are gods and superior to us , while we are incompetent and inferior).
Descartes told us 300 years ago to start doubting other people and our own thoughts - and we will start to think. This discovery was birth to modern philosophy and it is anti-dote to various mental imbalances where we are convinced that our current mindset is the only reality.
You are talking a lot about that you are not allowed to make mistakes. Maxwell Maltz said: "You make mistakes, mistakes don't make you"
And yeah -problem are toxic people - they target our mistakes and then fuse them with our character. This way they control us since they trigger our shame and guilt. We want to be helpful and perfectionist and not cause harm others - and they will nitpick and criticize our mistakes - this way we give up our sovereignty. Here it helps to put ourselves in other people shoes and realize that some people are evil - they do not operate from love and kindness as we do. As we educate ourselves about toxic people (narcissists) - we will learn that they hate truth, authenticity, facts, objectivity - and that is out weapon - speak up the truth, voice out the elephant in the room, their transgressions that they try to hide with projection.
It seems to me that you show signs of codependency - where you depend on other people - you try to fix their emotions. That is codependency, it is part of trauma - we never learned during growing up what is love - so we imitate what we see in movies and media and we think other people are "ok" while in fact they have their own persona - and we are not aware that we are seeing their masks - and then we try to incorporate their fake world in ours by being codependent. We can opt out of Karpman Drama Triangle - which is codependency dynamics.
"Tools to feel emotions. Accept them. Then let them go" He was talking about parts of our persona. We suppress them, we throw them in Shadow, This becomes problem when we label normal and neutral parts as evil - then we are unable to live with wings - we are unable to fly since we labeled our wings as satan and we threw it in jail.
Gabor Mate said that our personality is made of safety mechanisms and we are not aware of it. Therefore to be full Self - means that we go beyond safety mechanisms and restore normal mechanisms back in our awareness and daily life.
"Dark room" yes, that is Jung's Shadow. We tend to lock in that room parts of ourselves that are innocent, neutral, childish, playful.
You are mixing up Persona with parts of ourselves that ended up there. It was trauma and toxic people who labelled those normal parts as abnormal. Obligations and rules from external factor.
"Open and see darkness" That is the problem, it is in the dark, you cannot see it. We can walk around in it and bump onto objects there. Think of LED light as coming from external source - someone explaining you this, such as your counselor or me here in the comments. We need to educate ourselves to light the darkness and see what is there.
We will be afraid to speak up if we reject parts of our persona that we see as dark. We can integrate child parts that are bold with our adult part and come up with negotiation what we want in life. The more you feel fear - means that you label parts of yourself as evil and horrific. And that is the purpose of evil - that keep us trapped with fear and without clarity.
Since the world is deceptive, and we are dealing with Descartes' demon hypothesis - we are left on relying on our instinct inside what is common sense. Freud called it Superego.
You are correct. Creator will not blame you. Everything in life is designed to be experienced - not to waste your youth but to build it up to live better - to detect what is waste and choose what is not waste. We won't carry in our next life money nor instagram likes - we will take with us only our experiences and knowledge we got from this experience.
The fact that we live in Yin Yang balance is proof that God exists. And we do not have to waste our time thinking about it - we only have to live our life, become who we are, with all our parts inside us active.
I believe that there is multidimensional realities out there - and ability to learn and live Jung archetypes is path to these, to be Enlighted.
When we have our parts activated - we will not see failure at all. Instead, we will see valuable stream of precious data in everything - including good and bad.
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It's ok to talk about it, that is how we can put everything in the open. It is like letting the sunshine in a dark room and then we can see what is inside, things that we trip over and over.
"but simply to practice socialising more." That is the problem. People with social anxiety/awkwardness/shyness do socialize - but social anxiety does not wear off. Shyness is clear until the next big event or public speaking.
We need to change the way how we look at anxiety. Accept it. Then we can change it. Carl Rogers: As the psychologist Carl Rogers put it “The curious paradox is that when I accept myself, just as I am, then I can change.”
Social anxiety is the result of invalidation and lack of self -love. We have a high amount of toxic shame inside us and we distrust our own thoughts, our own opinions and we believe other people are correct - and we interpret our mistakes or wrong understandings as the flaw in our character - this is due to toxic shame.
Miyamoto Musashi said: Accept everything just the way it is.
What we resist, persist - as Jung said.
We won't become more sociable if we force ourselves doing something that we are afraid of. Social anxiety is not phobia. Phobias are cured with repeated exposure. Anxiety is voice from within, it is connected to Jung Shadow, Persona and Self. Anxiety tries to tell us that there is Fake persona, Fake self inside us - and it control our thoughts - toxic shame. Our healthy parts are either controlled by toxic shame or repressed totally. That is why self love will work. We will melt frozen parts of ourselves free.
When we are rigid in our thinking - that is sign of False Self. Healthy mind is Flexible - when we are loving - and love by definition is acceptance.
If we are kind, nice, friendly, good person without ill will and without hidden agenda to harm other people - there is absolutely no reason to carry on to toxic shame, irrational guilt and repressing ourselves and constricting and restricting ourselves.
We can allow parts of ourselves free - parts that toxic shame inside will label as "wrong", "arrogant", "stupid", "embarrassing", "shameful", "childish", "idiotic", "unacceptable".
The more we love ourselves, the less socially anxious we will be. Social anxiety is not illness - it is alarm, smoke detector - that there is imposter inside us in form of toxic shame, and that we probably attract a lot of toxic people whom we need to recognize and say good bye - since we will attract parasites. Narcissists love kind and nice and silent and quiet people - they see us as easy target to exploit.
“Adopt the motto—"It doesn't matter who's right, but what's right.” ― Maxwell Maltz, Psycho-Cybernetics, Updated and Expanded
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I see Humanistic therapies as the best target approach both for social anxiety and for removing toxic shame. The whole concept of Humanistic Psychology is based on self-love (Rollo, Carl Rogers, Laing, Maslow).
" Humanistic therapies" "This group of therapies encourages an individual to resolve their problems and issues and achieve greater fulfillment by recognizing, understanding, and using their own capacity to develop. Humanists believe that not only is a person capable of making changes and achieving personal growth but it is their responsibility to do so. This idea places the individual fully in control of their choices and goals."
Problem with toxic shame and self love is that we do not have Self. We are running the simulation of Self and it appears real to us - and then we try to change and modulate it - but nothing works, since toxic shame has exported our Self worth in other people. We have toxic shame because of Complex Trauma - so learning about Complex Trauma is also helpful. We never build up the persona when we were growing up due to exposure to invalidation and relentless criticism 24/7. We have build up the simulation of what we are convinced is Persona, and Self. We are very much responsible and logical and scientific. But this is one part - we repressed and buried the part of our persona that handles society and social life. Think of it as if Putin fired his culture, sport and art minister - and he left only economy and military. We need all our ministers inside us to be whole. We need voice and interests that we do not allow ourselves to have, kids parts, inner child - and children like to play, go out, make friends, be foolish and irresponsible and not care what other people think about them and play is the only important thing in the world to them - we need to incorporate that part inside us, we suppressed it - we thought it is wrong and evil - because someone toxically ashamed us, bullied us into fear.
We need parts of ourselves that are wacky, insecure, scared, anxious, mystical, deep -- it is not good for us to reject these. Without them we cannot be social, we cannot make connection with others and we end up being afraid of people - since we do not have part of our Persona who will not care about other people.
I recognized Sandra Bernhard personality - me as a kid - that I decided to stifle down in my teens, when my social anxiety started. Now I do not allow myself to be vulnerable - I try to be like BBC presenter. That is persona I was convinced that I must be. Check out Jung's Persona and Shadow and Self - I know this is very confusing and complex topic - and I have no idea why CBT is not telling us about it...
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(28.6.2022)
This comes with certain warranties though. If the psychopath is on the other side - and usually difficult people are sociopaths, we will get fired or stabbed in the back. So we need money to not be "pushover".
Pushover is not totally wrong. Being agreeable gives us ability to connect with people and be diplomatic, to resolve issues through negotiation. If we destroy our "pushover" side, we will become Putin, thermodynamic law says that isolated elements are prone to get distorted.
The solution is to find the middle way. Peterson proposes as if we have only 2 options in life: 1) be monster, fight, explosions, wars, drama or 2) be pushover, silent, self-censorship, fawning.
There is alternative to these: we can retort and be labeled as arrogant and still voice out the truth - describe the corruption and wrongdoings.
If we let ourselves go, our amygdala will get hijacked and we will become screaming Karen - since our cortex brain will be switched off. Then the enemy will say that we are aggressive, corrupt and wrongdoers. We will lose if we end up in the court.
Speaking up the truth - being authentic, voicing out the obvious can be done without drama, without explosions, without being a monster, without isolation and without withdrawal (being passive aggressive). The truth itself is strong enough to fight.
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"You need superego telling you: "Don't worry, you're gonna screw up, but that's okay". That is totally different belief system. Built on robustness, making people strong, resilient, not on keeping people safe.
Don't instill the idea that they are perfect and that they're always gonna be safe. Don't do that. Because it is neurotic and it doesn't help. Instill the idea that they're not perfect, but they're lovable with their imperfection. That is not safe but they're strong enough to deal with the danger. That's healthy. Everything else is brittle."
Now imply this message to your own anxious mind(set), where your anxiety is a child hidden scared under the bed and your logic mind is the parent.
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"Are you living according to your values" "Something needs to change" Yep - first, it is the realization that "your" does not exists. "Your" is made of trauma and negative experiences that molded and created our Persona - and now we are stuck with our safety mechanisms and we are convinced this is our "Self" and "Persona". Then we try to fix and nitpick and modulate our life - which is actually working in covert hidden on toxic shame and immature ego defense mechanisms that we think is our personality. Thus we are literally trapped in the matrix. We are in the water without realizing we are in the water.
"not thinking what is important to them" "just reacting to what is given to them" Again, there is no Self inside, only a simulation of Self. We have fake Self inside - our obligations, perceptions, confirmation bias, definitions. We locked our child self in the dark room as if it is a criminal. It's time to integrate our Persona and Self - accepting all parts of us. Unless unkind or violent, anything goes. It is not healthy if we hold on to perfectionism and do not allow making mistakes. ----
Excellent tip and information. I would add that there is fourth F which is very important to know for socially anxious who suffer from plethora of various panic symptoms: there is Fawning response. Which is very indicative - that instead of body rocking - we need to do something about the other side. If we are socially anxious and in panic - there is external factor - person on the other side that is causing our panic - we are simply picking up the danger. So we need to make aware who is on the other side. If that person is hysterical, demanding, criticizing us - and if we can leave - leave. With fawning programmed inside us, we try to make friends with all psychopaths out there.
If we can't leave - first check if this person is really hysterical or is it in my mind. Seek evidence and clues. Sometimes we carry past drama and then we react to past, not the current reality. If the person is difficult - this is probably not the first time - parasites can only function by sucking the energy from kind, nice and friendly people. So - we need to get education: how to recognize toxic people, how to handle narcissistic abuse and react to difficult people in healthy, functional and proper manner - without drama, explosions, wars or isolation. It is dangerous sometimes - we can look at femicide statistics - so we need to educate ourselves about our rights as human being and how to retort to psychopaths too, narcissists who are using gaslighting.
Our panic is not illness, it is not sickness. It is reaction to external illness and sickness. If we self-pathologize ourselves, we will develop toxic shame and create neurosis.
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"the unforgivness, constant angry look and believing people have looked at me " Check it out. Become scientist and collect facts. Become Sherlock Holmes and collect clues. You spend time ruminating anyway - you spend mental energy to solve the puzzle of anger and unforgiveness. Well, Are they? Do you have evidence? Do you have objective, hard core hard cold facts? If there is no evidence - then you can ignore it.
Think more about it, what have you done that they are angry at you? What have you done? Did you hurt anyone? Did you talk about someone behind their back? Did you done any single evil thing that justifies their anger and unforgiveness? What kind of person are you? Are you nice to people, kind, friendly, open, empathic, do you listen to them, do you have ill will towards people? Do you want harm to other people? If no - there is absolutely no reason for them to feel angry at you - unless they have mental issues and paranoid delusions.
What we give to others, it will return to us. If you do not say Hi back to them when they greet you - they might be angry at you. If you are not interested in them, they will not be interested in you. If you do not show interest and initiative, they will leave you alone and then they will invent their own fantasy explanations about you- since they do not know you.
Also from where this unforgiveness comes from? Check out Complex Trauma - do you see any answers there. If we are exposed to relentless criticism 24/7 when our persona is developing, and when we are surrounded by adult hysteria, child brain will not be able to process toxic shame and untreated mental illness in any other way than internalizing unforgiveness and anger - this process is called introjection. CPTSD leads to codependency and social anxiety later in life - because we never developed our persona and self. We are stuck in arrested development - where we have internalized toxic shame - and toxic shame is controlling our thoughts and explanations and definition and anything how we see life and people - it is thwarted and distorted. It is like a black transparent veil over our eyes and we can't see life in clarity.
"If you only have a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail" Abraham Maslow
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"One of the pieces of advice will likely be 'set clear boundaries'. " But psychology is very clear: What resist, persist.
"But what if you're scared to say no to the person? That's where Energy Psychology comes in." I Googled it and it says: " World-class training. Professional membership." So basically you are saying that I must pay to learn some energy - while other people who do not have social anxiety did not went through any special training? You never question why is that? Why I need to pay for certain information to learn - which other people learned in natural way while growing up?
"It helps you get rid of the fear." Think about this more. What if Johnny Depp got rid of his fear? He would be still stuck with Amber. He would be broke now, without career and the world would label him as abuser - his public image would be gone. Fears are not always negative, it is basic psychology that we do not destroy our fears, neither it is healthy idea to self pathologize ourselves and our natural reaction to the danger.
"And you can better protect yourself from toxic people." I will do nothing about repel part. If I am honest, if I am authentic - toxic people hate transparency - they will be naturally repelled by my honesty. Perhaps that is better approach then fighting with toxic people?
"Rather, it's the way our mind perceives other people. " Ok, but what about gaslighting? And shifting blame - when we are not aware that we are in abusive situation and we feel guilty all the time? What then?
"We see threats that aren't there. But they FEEL true. " In true toxic relationships we see ourselves as guilty ones. Then your advice would be extremely damaging. I would attack my natural reaction to psychopath and stay in room, relationship, at job with someone who is abnormal and influencing my mental health.
"But often, our minds exaggerate how threatening these people really are." It should. This is called Darwinism , it is evolution. You know what it danger - and you build protection mechanism against it. If you are extremely intelligent or extremely sensitive - would you suppress your mind that it exaggerate? Self pathologizing is horrible trait of CBT. I encourage you to stop spreading it. There is Humanistic psychology that is more..human.
"Or you might want to move to a friendlier area." Sometimes people do not have money to do that. What then? We let them suffer? What is purpose of psychology? To run away from danger? And anyways, Oprah said - when you run away from trouble, it will re-appear in different trousers somewhere else.
"Since most non-HSPs do not seem to enjoy thinking about solutions, they assume we must be unhappy doing all that pondering. Preferring toughness, the culture sees our trait as something difficult to live with, something to be cured." The Highly Sensitive Person, Elaine N. Aron
"They see us as timid, shy, weak, or unsociable. Fearing these labels, we try to be like others. But that leads to our becoming overaroused and distressed. Then that gets us labeled neurotic or crazy, first by others then by ourselves." The Highly Sensitive Person, Elaine N. Aron
"Being sensitive to the discomfort, disapproval, or anger of others probably made you quick to follow every rule as perfectly as possible, afraid to make a mistake. Being so good all the time, however, meant ignoring many of your normal human feelings-irritation," Elaine Aron "HSP"
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"We don't have the same views on much of what it is written here."
Sure, because you care for your money income more than mental health of people who need help.
You failed at Milgram Experiment. You would continue to harm people just because someone in charge told you that it is good and you will get payed for it.
"The belief that one's own view of reality is the only reality is the most dangerous of all delusions." Paul Watzlawick
When you teach a child something, you take away forever his chance of discovering it for himself. JEAN PIAGET
Mental illness was a "myth", a diagnosis primarily imposed upon individuals whom society considered eccentric or unmanageable. Anti-psychiatry David Cooper, 1967 1001 IDEAS, Robert Arp
In 1973, David Rosenhan carried out a field study that explored the validity of psychiatric diagnosis and resulted in the dramatic conclusion that we cannot distinguish the sane from the insane in psychiatric hospitals.
Approach: Anti-psychiatry DAVID ROSENHAN DK THE PSYCH. BOOK
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(29.6.2022)
*You're absolutely correct!
When we equate action with one's character - this is the definition of toxic shame. This is great tool for toxic people to control easy targets: nice, friendly, warm, open, healthy people who try not to make mistakes. Then our desire not to hurt other people with out mistakes get taken advantage against us - practically when someone toxically ashame us, we have our limb torn off and we get beaten by it.
Glasser divided communication in connecting and dysfunctional part. William Glasser "What's my Choice" Connecting Habits: Listening Supporting Encouraging Negotiating Respecting Accepting Trusting
Then there are Controlling Habits: Blaming Criticizing Complaining Nagging Rewarding To Control Threatening Punishing
"Glasser points towards the basic human need for power, which we try to satisfy by attempting to control other people. In fact, the only thing that we can control is the way we behave and think; we cannot control others. Trying to, he says, shows a lack of respect for others." quote from DK THE PSYCHOLOGY BOOK
Therefore, feeling of inferiority springs from toxic people around us - in our past and right now. It is indication that we do not have walls inside us to protect us from toxic shame. This is because toxic shame is internalized inside us - and now we are not able to see that we are in water (fish being in the water - other fish comes by and tells how's the water? and the first one will reply What is water?)
When we are growing up - if we are surrounded by relentless constant criticism 24/7 and adult hysteria - we will internalize toxic shame inside us - and we won't grow up as other kids who were spared of over pruning and discipline and orders and commands about anything in our life, where we did not have autonomy to choose or speak our opinions. We will end up with inferiority complex. Some kids who also grew up in Complex Trauma environment, they choose to deal with toxic shame by fight response - and then they become narcissists. We are lucky ones because inferiority complex make us to wake up from this condition - we are able to learn to come to our Real Self. Narcissists choose evil because they are evil and they will tend to be stuck in False Self - and in the end they will commit some criminal act, since their mindset is based on evil.
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"led us to better understanding of each other" Yep. Absolutely. And this works with healthy people.
This does not work with External factor: Machiavellians - toxic people who have hidden agenda of evil and exploitation. There are people like that but since we are healthy, due to Confirmation bias we cannot understand that there are evil people out there that seem friendly but they want to destroy and eat up others.
"Often conflict is disagreement in values" Think about it more. What are values and our filter? If we are kind, nice, open, friendly people - basically we will have 90% of same values. Conflict actually occurs when there is External factor - toxic person with a mask of someone who seem mentally sane and grown up. We need to wake up and see that any disorder, conflict in the world comes from toxic people - and it is best to break contact with them.
You are absolutely correct: Courageous conversation will build relationships, oftentimes we are scared to be vulnerable due to toxic shame and complex trauma - however we also need to be aware that toxic people are narcissistic, they live in their own fantasy world, where other people are nuisance and NPC Wojaks - background characters whose purpose in life is to admire and serve them, which means - toxic people will have huge temper tantrum conflicts drama when you are transparent, objective and when you voice out the elephants in the room, when you point to the obvious yet nobody speaks it out. So courageous conversations will bring clarity - and it will expose toxic, selfish people who are not interested in analogy of Long spoons.
Long spoon analogy works in two ways: 1) This page is about the saying "He who sups with the devil should have a long spoon" Possible meaning: If you eat with the devil, you need a (very) long spoon so that you can keep your distance. If you mix with bad people, you should be careful not to be influenced by them.
2) The allegory of the long spoons is a parable that shows the difference between heaven and hell by means of people forced to eat with long spoons.
Interdependence is healthy relationship with people. When there is tyranny and rigidness - it is sick relationship and we need to opt our of Karpman Drama Triangle as soon as we are put in victim role, or rescuer role or when we find ourselves to go on Crusade to prove our point which ought to be obvious to anyone with sane mind.
Problem starts when we cannot leave abusive relationships (Due to money, shelter, help, third party) - and when we are forced to live with evil. Then courageous conversations will turn into belittling and toxic shame, drama and exposure to long term narcissistic abuse can cause brain injury and trauma. We can end up scared and scarred for life.
I see solution in tackling our toxic shame inside. When we grow up we are taught to be good and nice, kind people all the time. This is unnatural. Because there are toxic people out there. Toxic people do not deserve nice and kind treatment nor focus as we would give to the other nice and kind people. If we are not able to differentiate this, we will end up with codependency issues and being pushover. Toxic shame means we have False Self inside - and Jung tells us that in this case, due to toxic environment in our life (too controlling) we suppressed parts of ourselves that are bold and honest and able to retort. So we need to wake up those repressed parts inside us, that are suppressed into shadow, as if they are criminals and evil. That is the curse of being too good and trying to be god.
When we awake those parts, when we are stuck with toxic people - we will have ability to not care anymore what they Ad Hominem to us. It will no longer hurt us and we won't feel it as pain anymore, since our locus of control will now be inside us where we balance good and less good parts in harmony.
Right now, if we are afraid of conflict, there is False Self inside us, and there is disbalance of being too good inside, we lack Yin Yang dynamics inside us.
We can be brutally honest and still care for people and even love them. We can leave people and block them from our lives and still have love for them.
When we grew up in controlling environment, we are programmed not to. We are programmed to be 100% "perfect" - which leads to neuroticism and issues with fears and social anxiety, aka fear of conflict.
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I am at the point where I see all experiences in life as endless stream of valuable data. And that included negative programming and abuse. Not in a way that it excuses, but to learn the contrast. Without knowing what is evil - we would not have ability to know what is wrong. So we might end up being abusers ourselves later in life - since we would not know what is correct or wrong. Basically evil, toxic people are teaching us how not to be evil and toxic. The ability to feel the pain and develop codependency is sign we are good people inside - that we naturally choose good and light. We could easily respond to life problems with hysteria and abusing others, criticizing them and making temper tantrums - but we choose to suppress our emotions in order not to hurt others. Now with Lisa and with more information about abuse, codependency and complex trauma - we are able to discern good and evil and to know how to retort to toxic people in functional, healthy, proper manner. We can cut contact with evil people and still love them, without having evil bone or intent in our mind.
I see Jung archetypes as path how to change mindset in seeing toxic narcissistic people. We can realize that they are like children trapped in adult bodies. They learned to invent Fake mask, Fake persona - that explains their gaslighting and blame shifting and temper tantrums and mood swings. If we are not aware of this we are in hypnotic brain state. We see their False Persona and we think this is Real Persona. This way they control us because we do not doubt them.
Also, with codependency issues, we have False self inside us. It is toxic shame. That keeps us stuck in patterns of the past, hypervigilance and patterns of survival. This means we put parts of our child self in Shadow, we locked it in the room. If we let these children out in the open, we will have ability to not care any more when someone is rude to us. This will be possible because we will be whole again, and our locus of control will be inside us. We won't seek approval nor validation from external sources anymore.
Inability to integrate repressed childish parts - this causes a lot of problems when we define certain behaviour - we see honest people as scary. We see our ability to stand up to bully as shame and guilt and we cannot shake it off. People ill define our retort as aggression and arrogance and we will believe them and then we will shut up, self censor and seek their approval - from people who are not grown ups inside.
This happens because we do not allow children inside us to be integral part of our persona. We were sanitized to have only adult part inside us, logical part. This causes disorder. We need yin yang balance inside us that will consequently manifest in outer world, too.
Toxic people have totally opposite disorder- their mind is full of Bart Simpsons and Homer Simpson -and they suppressed their Lisa and Marge.
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People pleasing is result of being in toxic environment, there is untreated mentally ill person on the other side that is tyrannical where we learned to keep safe we must be nice all the time, without being authentic.
We do not have ability to say what needs to be said - because of toxic shame. Internalized toxic shame is Fake Self inside us. During trauma we pushed parts of our personality in Jung's Shadow. We labeled certain parts of ourselves as being evil and criminal - we equated being childish with evil. So we have trapped persona of ourselves and we are not aware of it.
So it is not about fishing out Shadow. Shadow belongs to shadow. What we need is to recognize that parts of our persona are shredded and they are in prison, locked in our repressed parts inside us. It seems to me that in your book you are not aware of this - that we have kids selves locked inside us, and they do not belong to be locked. In your book you talked about shadow being released - but this is wrong approach. Shadow is part of ourselves that is criminal. It is what we all know is not allowed - to hurt others and cause them pain or worse. Someone might think if I must release my shadow - it will turn them into Borderliners - because they will try to be bad. In reality, we need to fish childish parts of us that are not bad at all.
Being honest is not bad nor evil. Being direct is not bad nor evil - but due to trauma we were programmed to believe it is very much evil. And now we are stuck with fear of being sincere and authentic.
Our toxic shame inside us distorts our definitions what is good and evil. Toxic shame is hallucination, it is a simulation of Self - and many mentors and CBT are not aware of this - and they try to fix, modulate and change Self - but there is no Self in scared people. There is only fake Self- that was not built on love, it was build as fantasy. That is the cause of disorder and fears that we feel now. We need to reinstate true Self.
We can check if we have fake self inside us by testing: False self is being rigid. True self is being flexible.
So when I am true Self I can be honest and direct but also I can be flexible and think that I might do something wrong or I am missing something so I can also listen to the other person.
If I see problem of being afraid of conflict as problem of being too nice - that is rigid thinking. Problem is toxic shame.
Toxic people also run on toxic shame - however they decided to handle their trauma by abusing other people and creating drama and conflict. When we realize that they are children trapped inside adult body, we can realize that their mask is fake. Their screaming and yelling that terrify us - is their mask that hides their inferiority and panic. Without understanding this, we are not aware that when we are talking to them, we are actually talking to simulation of their mask. We are not talking to the real person. They are like carboard adult person that Kevin is putting in front of window to scare the thieves outside in the movie Home Alone (1990). In their egocentric, narcissistic mind they see their house as universe, and other people are threat - something to attack and destroy or take advantage of.
When we understand this process we can be less scared of them and feel even empathy towards them and treat them as parent would treat the children who are spoiled.
We will notice that toxic people are afraid of truth - this is because it exposes their mask and fantasy world. They will crumble when we point their wrongdoings and melt down. When we leave them they will stab us in the back, like Amber did to Johnny Depp. That is because they are mentally ill, they do not have adult part in their brain to keep them sane.
We, nice people, have adult part too much. We discarded healthy parts of our childish persona into the prison. That is why toxic people hurt us - because we react to parts of ourselves that are locked. We need to let them free.
There are ancient folklore in Africa and Japan, called Orisha and Tengu. These are kids parts of ourselves that our logic brain sentenced to life prison. We need to get in contact and accept ourselves as we are, in full- search for them in prison Shadow inside us, and leave the rest of Shadow to be in the Shadow where it belongs.
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*you are so correct, There are answers we seek in our ancestors. And it is very helpful to talk about it.
There are ancient folklore in Africa and Japan, called Orisha and Tengu. These are kids parts of ourselves that our logic brain sentenced to life prison. We need to get in contact and accept ourselves as we are, in full. Search for them in prison Shadow inside us, and leave the rest of Shadow to be in the Shadow where it belongs.
The point is that we first balance Yin Yang inside ourselves. Then we can handle toxic people in healthier, proper manner. This means, we will realize that toxic shame (Jung's False Self) distorted our logic. Toxic shame tell us that we hate people or love them - as if there is no alternative. It is rigid, black white thinking. In reality we can cut contact with people and still love them. That is yin yang balance. That is crinkle crankle wall - which is stronger than the rigid wall - wikipedia: "The alternate convex and concave curves in the wall provide stability and help it to resist lateral forces,[2] leading to greater strength than a straight wall of the same thickness of bricks without the need for buttresses."
We do not need to force ourselves to be with the evil. Evil is there to teach us what is wrong. It is not to accept it and to live with it. It teaches us how not to be evil. Without contrast, we would not know what is wrong. We can see all experience, all life as endless stream of valuable data. So we do not need to fear or be codependent to evil anymore.
When we check out Orisha and Tengu we will realize that these imagination parts were censored inside us - and we end up being afraid, anxious, hypervigilant - since we do not allow ourselves to more options available - we are stuck only with being good, nice and perfect. And our toxic shame make us believe that certain behaviour is childish and must be banned as if it is criminal. This decision and belief creates disorder in our mind - and then in our environment. We will attract toxic people when we resist them. What resists, persist. We can accept parts of ourselves as kids - then we will be able to communicate with toxic people - it is because toxic people are kids trapped in grown mans body. They wear mask. They are like those dogs - living in their world, and act selfish, they are not aware of you talking to us - their life is their priority. That are toxic people - egocentric kids that never grew up and psychopaths among them consciously decided to be evil to others - as much as people pleasers and traumatized empathic people consciously decided to be good. It is abnormal to be good or evil all the time. We are creating disorder by being normal and good all the time - as much as toxic people are creating disorder by being abnormal and evil all the time. The difference is that we have brain and IQ to realize this and change the dynamics and bring harmony and balance - since we will be able to discern what is good and what is evil. Toxic people do not have this capacity, since they do not have love inside them.
We can show and have love for them and treat them as spoiled brats that throw temper tantrums. When we try to be logical, adult and normal - we do not allow ourselves to put ourselves on their level. We are unable to, because we banned kids parts inside our mind - and this is creating disorder and anxiety and fears and hypervigilance that we feel as panic and discomfort.
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(30.6.2022)
Struggle to say no comes from Codependency. We are taught in childhood through criticism and ethical and moral code how to be good however this can be used against us later on in life.
More often we will notice that people who put errands on other people, which they are capable to do on their own, are either unrecognized mentally ill or arrested in development, immature children stuck in adult body making them egocentric and narcissistic - in either case, something is not right in their head and they will entitled to play both victim and aggressor.
When we say no to them and if they are stubborn or violent in response to our no - we got to cut contact with them if possible. They are abnormal, they are unable to have empathy and they see us as object to take advantage of.
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yep! I am making a list of "Retort" because no one taught me while growin up how to say no, and I ended up being people pleaser and pushover.
With codependency we have no idea how to say no, since abusers and takers are excellent at manipulation. They pick on our mistakes, flaws and ignorance - and then we are left immobile and lost for words, confused an stuck with amygdala hijacking - our cortex part of brain (which does thinking) gets offline due to their gaslighting and temper tantrums.
I am adding this to Retort list: "Unfortunately I am not able to make it." "Thank you, but unfortunately i cannot make it today."
My Retort list up until now is:
"You are not helping."
"You are being rude."
"You are being hysterical."
"Stop it."
"What did I do to upset you?"
"I don't know"
"What you expect from me to do or know?"
"How am I suppose to know this"
"What makes you god to order me around or tell me what is correct since you obviously never said it before"
"Why is this my responsibility?"
"I have followed all of x's regulations to the best of my ability."
"Meh!"
"I disagree with you."
"I agree partly with you."
"You are being paranoid."
"I am doing this for the first time, I cannot know it as someone experienced"
"It was your fault for not explaining it to me."
"It's your stuff, not mine."
"I just want to work here, my focus is task - not gossip/paranoia/bias."
"No, you can't."
"I don’t care."
"What you say/do is insidious form of abuse"
"Enough"
"I will not you let me treat me this way "
"You are having inappropriate outbursts of anger"
"You are being jealous of me/my success/being better than you in handling people/problem"
"No, what you are saying/doing is devaluation"
"You feel fake, worthless, inept so you want to feel good by hurting other people"
"What do you want (from me)?"
"I'll do it better next time"
"What is going on with you? What is going on in your head?"
"Is it ok to create drama because of my mistake?
"It does not give you right to scream"
"You have no right to abuse/ yell/ scream"
"Is it true? Is it 100% true? Would I prove that in court of law? Would the whole world agree upon that?"
"Maybe you're the problem."
"You have serious mental problem hidden with hysteria and hate and treating people like crap" "You are sick"
"What you are doing is sick, abnormal, normal people do not do this"
"It takes two to make it all go right But with you, it's always my fault"
The last one is from Ava Max new hit "Maybe you're the problem"
